/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/05/30/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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=== mdke curses the day that the words "component" and "channel" were born
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mdkei don't want to go to sleep now02:11
mdkein case I meet a "channel"02:11
mdkeit must look a bit like a heffalump02:12
=== mdke tries counting repositories
BurgworkI wish gaim could group people with multiple accounts02:14
mdkemain... restricted... universe... *thud*02:14
mdkenight02:14
jsgotangcomdke: why reject it when you can at least commit for the next release? (after all trunk is always wip)02:15
mdkebecause I hope that for the next release we will have a sane software properties UI02:15
jsgotangcowhat would be your fallback if it doesn't?02:16
mdkeif what doesn't?02:16
jsgotangcodoesn't change02:18
mdkewell, then if we're shipping the desktop guide, then we can rewrite it appropriately02:19
jsgotangcoyour call sir ;)02:20
mdkemeh02:20
mdkegood night02:21
poningruand good luck02:21
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robotgeekhmm, lot of furor over software properties03:31
LaserJockyeah, nothing like the week before release :-)03:33
robotgeekhmm, i tht a string freeze is a string freeze is a string freeze03:34
LaserJockumm, I thought freezes were for exceptions ;-)03:35
robotgeekhmm, anyways. i will go and grab food now. bbl03:36
jsgotangcohopefully we get to resolve this during the sprint03:41
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ghee22anyone awake?09:08
Burgundaviaghee22, check, but not for much longer09:08
ghee22Burgundavia:  i have a made a very rough draft of what the intro prog will look like09:09
ghee22posting now09:09
ghee22Burgundavia:  the svg doesn't look good in firefox, will take 3 more min.. warning09:13
jsgotangcointro prog?09:13
Burgundaviajsgotangco, the new ubuntu welcome centre09:14
jsgotangcoahh right09:14
jsgotangcoare you mentoring that???09:14
Burgundaviame, no09:14
BurgundaviaI am merely providing guidance and time where it is needed09:15
jsgotangcoi see09:15
Burgundaviamuch like the ChildrensBrowser thing for Edubuntu09:15
Burgundaviain reality, likely I will be the closest to a useful mentor ghee22 and anselmo will get, unless we step up to the palte09:15
ghee22http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/ubuntu/productivity.png09:16
Burgundaviavery cool, but I am little concerned about it being non-standard09:16
ghee22I still have to add in screenshots, just that I wanted the UI to be up09:16
ghee22definitely important point09:16
Burgundaviahave you tried with that list view I suggested?09:17
ghee22where may find such standards09:17
Burgundaviahttp://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/09:17
ghee22I have tried to it, but I feel mirroring the help is not the goal of this project09:17
Burgundaviaspecifically 6.25 on this09:17
Burgundaviahttp://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-notebooks.html09:17
ghee22reading now09:17
ghee22this may take a while...09:18
Burgundaviastandard gtk bits will make long maintence easier09:18
Burgundaviaplus make your app easier to write, with a minor concern about less than ideal layout09:18
ghee22ahh, that "list view"... yes, this project is starting to become daunting09:19
Burgundaviano worries :)09:19
jsgotangcoheh09:19
Burgundaviawe are here to help you succeed09:19
Burgundaviasome of us even code :)09:19
ghee22haha09:19
BurgundaviaI assume you are doing this in pygtk?09:20
ghee22you have assumed correctly09:20
Burgundaviaas for content, more than one page gets into the iffy zone for me09:20
Burgundaviaper option/section, of course09:21
ghee22buy my python is weak.. when I applied on for the project, I threw out my heavy C experience.  But having read a few gtk tutorials, everyone raves of pygtk. so I've picked up a book for python09:21
Burgundaviapython is fairly easy to pick up09:21
BurgundaviaI have even dabbled a little in it, despite my hatred of all things code-related09:21
ghee22I agree.  may I dare say, fun to learn?09:21
ghee22at least when compared to java/c.   I did wonder if using mono would be allowed for this project09:22
Burgundaviaiffy, python is a much better choice09:22
jsgotangcoBurgundavia: boooo09:22
Burgundaviajsgotangco, are you saying that in general, or suggesting he use boo?09:22
=== ghee22 runs as he ignites language war
jsgotangco despite my hatred of all things code-related09:23
jsgotangcogo get a visual basic book then :D09:23
BurgundaviaI have done vb09:23
Burgundaviaagain, there are much better ways for me to spend my time than write shitty code09:23
ghee22just to make sure, is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to stick to the HIG?09:25
Burgundavianot one hundred percent, but the hig exists for a reason09:25
Burgundaviayou need to make a strong argument for breaking it09:25
Burgundaviaand, no, more bling is a not good argument09:26
Burgundavia:)09:26
ghee22How about this:  this more of a marketing program than a productivity program.  Aesthetics are extremely important to .... nevermind, you already answered it 09:27
Burgundaviaagain, this should not be a marketing program09:27
Burgundaviaif we want a marketing program, lets write one09:27
ghee22understood, they already have ubuntu.. wrong chioce of words in mine, this time09:27
BurgundaviaI think a marketing thing would be better served with an impress presentation running full screen in OO.o, rather than a specific program09:28
Burgundaviathen your mockup looks great for09:28
Burgundaviain fact, I think I am going to have to steal it09:28
ghee22Yeah.. that's great to hear.  I'll show you more stuff I had in mind... I was going to create a right column with videos for how to get to each piece of software I talk about.  It wouldn't automatically play, but once the user put the mouse over it, it'd start to play 09:30
Burgundaviathere are some really cools we can do with marketing, but that is a different discussion, for the fall09:30
ghee22yup, I'm interested... ok, list control huh.  looks so unattractive.  :o(09:31
Burgundaviahelp is supposed to be boring09:31
Burgundaviaplus don't go on those screenshots, they are ancient09:31
ghee22that's exactly one of the reasons I think HIG doesn't apply.  if help is boring, the user will close it just as he would in windows.  this may lead to the user not actually learning or wanting to learn.. if you see the windows tour, they totally stray away from their "HIG".  I believe they did this for the same reason I do mine09:33
ghee22without learning, comes frustration, comes a pirated windows XP09:33
Burgundaviaif we have good first sentence, we should be able to grab them09:34
ghee22how about, "Don't close me just cause I'm ugly"09:34
Burgundaviaheh09:34
BurgundaviaI think the key thing is that you need to have something in the repo asap when edgy opens09:36
Burgundaviathen we can discuss it muchly on the doc list09:36
ghee22yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing.. I'm gonna go ahead and make a boring one, but I'm also going to make an html one too.. if that one gets high demand, I'll "port" it to gtk09:38
ghee22the html one will have the ui I posted earlier09:38
Burgundaviaif you are doing html, then you don't need a new app, you need yelp09:39
Burgundaviahence, you would have an issue09:39
Burgundaviaif you want to hack on yelp, that is good too09:39
Burgundaviaghee22, given your knowledge of C, yelp might make a good choice to change direction too09:40
Burgundaviajsgotangco, what do you think of the above idea>09:41
Burgundavia?09:41
ghee22ok, I guess one thing at a time.  I'd like to hack on yelp, sure.  that's not my priority right now.  My priority is to finish what's assigned, and there's a lot of work left to do besides the UI.  Here's my final decision.  I'm giong to make this program using HIG.  That means, the next step right now is finishing content.  Mock screenshots will be posted within 2 days using HIG.  that's enough time to scope what they have to say about 09:42
Burgundaviacan I see your project proposal?09:42
ghee22surely, grabbing.09:43
Burgundaviaif we can achieve what we want in yelp, I don't see the need to create yet another new program09:44
ghee22https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center09:44
Burgundaviahmm09:45
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ghee22updated categories on page09:50
jsgotangcoyelp is pretty extensible and can render html09:50
BurgundaviaI don't see anything in that spec we cannot do with docbook in spec now09:51
Madpilotneed sleep. night all09:51
mpt__"Welcome to Windows 98, where your computer desktop meets the Internet! Sit back and relax as you take a brief tour of the options available on this screen."09:51
Burgundaviagiven that, and that we don't want poor ghee22 to be out of a job, what else can we have him do?09:51
Madpilotmpt, sounds like you reinstalled Win98 a number of times ;)09:52
Burgundaviajsgotangco, what about profiling yelp?09:53
mptYes, it was the base OS at my last cybercaf?09:53
mptBurgundavia, yelp doesn't do interactivity09:54
Burgundaviampt, what sort do you mean?09:54
Madpilotnight all09:54
ghee22I think a key sentence in the project proposal which led me to a non-HIG design is this: The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu.09:56
mptghee22, sorry to be coming in halfway through, but have you been accepted for the 2006 SoC?09:57
Burgundaviampt, yes09:57
ghee22mpt, that question is loaded,  apparently I'm not up on the accepted proposals page in ubuntu but I think they may require some interaction from my mentor.09:58
mptghee22, who is (or would be) your mentor?09:58
ghee22my mentor is simon law and apparently is reading 24,000 emails per hour, god help him09:58
Burgundaviampt, realistically. the mentor is the doc team09:58
ghee22I was assigned to him per janew09:58
mptThat's more than six messages per second09:58
ghee22that assignment came late09:58
mptYeah, it seems the SoC has some speed wobbles this year09:59
=== mpt browses the spec
Burgundaviaghee22, yelp renders docbook and html quite well, hence the issue09:59
ghee22wow, he's like the chuck norris of reading emails - simon law doesn't read bug reports, he smashes them with his bare fist09:59
ghee22burgundavia: the project proposal required a gui app though10:00
Burgundaviahmm10:00
mpt"MS uses Flash for their tour"? Really?10:00
ghee22A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu.10:00
ghee22yes, load it up, and right click10:01
ghee22they embed flash player 5 in your windows install10:01
Burgundaviaghee22, can we do an end run around that and have you work on yelp instead?10:01
Burgundaviathere was a plan to embed yelp in the Ubuntu installer10:01
ghee22it's possible, but my true goal was to create a tour similar to windows xp.10:02
Burgundaviathen you should be working on the installer10:02
ghee22which is exactly what the proposal stated (the reason why I applied)10:02
Burgundaviaeither way, I don't see a need for another program, hence the concern10:02
ghee22yeah, I guess that's possible10:02
ghee22we have the tour running during install10:02
Burgundaviabut neither do I want you thrown out on the street10:02
ghee22?10:02
Burgundaviayep, hidden by default by an expander10:03
mptBurgundavia, stop eating those lemons :-)10:03
ghee22well the install is running off the live cd?  so then it can still be an app on its own10:03
Burgundaviahmm10:03
Burgundavianot sure the installer should be spawning another program while installing10:03
mptAn interactive tutorial would definitely be useful10:04
mptthough its method of invocation could be debated for months10:04
Burgundaviampt, but another app for it just invites it to be forgotten after edgy10:04
ghee22I agree with mpt.. if the user doesn't care about internet, but just productivity, the user should be able to just read that page10:04
mptBurgundavia, what special is happening after edgy?10:04
jsgotangcohow are you sure bout that?10:05
Burgundaviampt, nothing, but too many projects for last years soc just got forgotten because they failed to consider long term integration10:05
mptBurgundavia, or was it more because they were unmaintained?10:05
=== mpt knows very little about last year's projects
mptWhat were they?10:05
BurgundaviaI argue they were unmaintained because of the former issue10:05
Burgundaviawe had a backup program and xen one that both failed for that very reason10:06
mptMaybe there's a sliding scale of project sexiness and necessity10:06
Burgundaviatbh, and no disrespect against you ghee22, but I would argue against including yet another app just to show what Ubuntu can do, even if it does get produced10:06
ghee22the programs discussed are very  mature: Oo.o, firefox, gaim, the games inside are classics.  I think the only updates needed are newer features involved with security, finding information (which I will discuss beagle).  Once the UI is in, it will be very possible only to replace the text and screenshots/video10:06
mptIn the early days of the Mozilla project, there were many, many people contributing new splash screens for Mozilla to use10:07
Burgundaviaexactly, trying to solve a problem that didn't exist10:07
=== ghee22 grabs armor and weaons to defend his project
mptbecause it was relatively easy to do, and it was the first thing everyone saw10:07
mptThis is quite similar10:08
Burgundaviaghee22, how extensive is your C experience?10:08
ghee22grabbing latest thing written in school: 10:08
ghee22wrote a rudimentary user-level remote file system using ONC (Sun) RPC supporting open, close, read, and write operations in C.10:08
Burgundaviahave you done any profiling? one of the things that sucks in yelp is the speed10:08
ghee22profiling, no.. I hear those tasks are left for the gods of code10:09
Burgundaviaok10:09
Burgundaviaone other way is to do the flash integration into ubitquity10:09
BurgundaviaI think that would fit the style of the project very well, and you would deliver a "gui app", just it would be part of a larger one10:10
Burgundaviahell, we then have an excuse to ship gnash!10:10
mptyay10:10
Burgundaviampt, was that being sarcastic or happy?10:11
mptBurgundavia, happy, I crashed Epiphany on Homestar Runner yesterday10:12
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Burgundaviacool10:12
mptand there was no sound10:12
Burgundaviausing gnash?10:12
mptyeah10:12
mptbut not specific to gnash10:13
Burgundavianot tried it yet10:13
mptUbuntu just goes quiet in general for long periods on this machine10:13
Burgundaviawierd10:13
mptI suppose I should report a bug10:13
mptbut I have no idea what information I should provide10:13
Burgundaviaghee22, what do you think of that idea?10:13
Burgundaviafile one and people will ask you10:13
ghee22I'm feeling really conflicted.  I do really want to help you.  but again, the reason why I applied to this project is because I wanted to do this project.  There may be a million other things that are more important, but this is what is most important to me..   I'm not sure why this project did not go through you when gettting accepted, but apparently someone saw the same vision I did.  And that vision did insinuate the screenshot I put 10:13
=== mpt hunts for Simon Law's e-mail address
crimsunmpt: recap sound issue, please?10:14
ghee22mpt, "Simon Law" <sfllaw@ubuntu.com>10:14
jsgotangco?10:14
Burgundaviaghee22, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface10:15
Burgundaviascroll down to the Progress information section10:15
mptcrimsun, sometimes (such as right now) Ubuntu doesn't produce any sound, even with volume turned up to the max.10:15
Burgundaviaghee22, I think that is exactly what you want to be working on10:15
mptBurgundavia, seriously, that part of the installer would work very well just as an animated GIF10:15
jsgotangcoyes10:16
Burgundaviathat works too10:16
BurgundaviaI believe there was a crack idea involving sound10:16
crimsunmpt: across /any/ sound app or just in epiphany?10:16
mptcrimsun, any, including all the clicks GTK is supposed to be making10:16
crimsunmpt: lsof /dev/dsp* /dev/snd/*10:16
crimsunwe can migrate to #ubuntu+1 if necessary10:16
mptmixer_app 5135 mpt 35u CHR 116,0 8653 /dev/snd/controlC010:17
crimsunok, looks normal/fine10:17
crimsundoes ``aplay /usr/share/sounds/startup.wav'' produce audible volume?10:17
ghee22Yes, that is very similar in terms of content.  but what if the user just leaves during install.  I know I leave when installing Windows XP tells me the rest will be done automatically.    My vision was to have this as a separate program, especially used on the live cd (when users just try ubuntu) and also on the first install's run10:18
ghee22which is why I want a separate gui (just as the project proposal contains)10:18
mptcrimsun, no, just does nothing for ~10 seconds10:18
crimsunmpt: pastebin ``cat /proc/asound/cards && amixer'', please?10:19
Burgundaviaghee22, first run is going to run into strong opposition from a number of people and I personally believe that the installer is part marketing, first run should not be10:19
Burgundaviafirst run should be pure doc10:19
mpt"pure doc"?10:20
mptcrimsun, http://pastebin.com/74634010:20
Burgundavianot "wow Ubuntu is cool", more "here is how you do X that 95% of you used to do in Windows"10:21
Burgundaviathe installer is about "wow Ubuntu is cool and this is how"10:21
Burgundaviaanyway, I need to sleep10:22
ghee22yes, but how do we force the user to view this tour. and should we?  what if someone sets ubuntu up for a friend, which I have done 99% of the time w/out the friend there.  I think this should really be completely separate.  perhaps, like windows xp, it should popup in the system tray letting users know about it10:22
Burgundaviaghee22, we should not be forcing the user todo anthing10:23
Burgundaviaugh, system tray and popups10:23
BurgundaviaXP is awful for that10:23
crimsunmpt: hmm, nothing extraordinary. Anything in ``dmesg''?10:23
Burgundaviaghee22, hence why the part about the installer. Most people are going to stare at it, but you can shrink it if you want10:24
mptcrimsun, unlikely -- I don't remember exactly when sound stopped, but it would have been a week or two ago10:24
Burgundaviaghee22, anyway, final thought before I crash. I really love that you are thinking about this, but I really don't see a need for yet another application specifically for this. The isntaller and yelp are great places to put this stuff10:25
mptQuite unfairly, I'm going to disagree with Burgundavia after he's gone10:25
ghee22burgundavia, because I strongly feel the people who install ubuntu, are not the ones that are going to use it.  I've been distributing/installing ubuntu to parents/business students10:25
mptghee22, I think it's an interesting idea10:25
ghee22yah, he said he was gonna sleep around 3... I feel bad for him, I got him riled up10:26
=== ghee22 grins
mptI've just mailed Simon asking him to let me know if he likes the idea but doesn't have time to design it10:26
ghee22thanks10:26
mptin which case I'd be interested in helping out10:26
ghee22mpt, I'm giving simon law some time, after june 1st, I think he'll be more free.  and who knows, he was assigned to me for some reason10:26
mptbut now I really need to get back to proper work :-)10:26
ghee22I don't think I'd like burgundavia as a mentor, we'd argue forever, but he is very smart, just has different ideas than me.  ok mpt, I'm going to continue on content.10:27
mptcrimsun, next time it stops after starting again, I'll grab dmesg and report a bug10:27
mptthanks for your time10:27
crimsunmpt: great, thanks10:29
jsgotangcoi truly doubt if sflaw will be really free after all the bugs come crashing down after release :D10:40
=== jsgotangco hides
jsgotangco(or whining rather than bugs)10:41
jsgotangcoghee22: honestly, some find him dictatorial :D but with good intentions10:41
jsgotangco(about burgundavia that is)10:42
jsgotangco:D10:42
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Kamping_Kaisercan i use the fdl.xml in the ubuntu docteams svn repo in my projects? i asume yes, but i thought i should check.03:27
mdkeKamping_Kaiser: course03:51
Kamping_Kaisermdke, thanks.03:52
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crimsunis anyone writing a migration guide for hoary/breezy -> dapper?11:15
crimsunI can think of at least two issues11:15
crimsun(both sound related, of course)11:15
LaserJockI think there is something on the wiki at least11:16
LaserJockor maybe the release notes11:16
mdkeDapperUpgrades probably, or release notes yeah11:16
crimsunok, I'll look at the former (wiki), and I presume I'd have to submit something to a mailing list for the latter?11:17
LaserJockI'm not sure who does the release notes11:19
mdkecrimsun: both wiki11:20
crimsunok, thanks11:20
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