[02:11] <mdke> i don't want to go to sleep now
[02:11] <mdke> in case I meet a "channel"
[02:12] <mdke> it must look a bit like a heffalump
[02:14] <Burgwork> I wish gaim could group people with multiple accounts
[02:14] <mdke> main... restricted... universe... *thud*
[02:14] <mdke> night
[02:15] <jsgotangco> mdke: why reject it when you can at least commit for the next release? (after all trunk is always wip)
[02:15] <mdke> because I hope that for the next release we will have a sane software properties UI
[02:16] <jsgotangco> what would be your fallback if it doesn't?
[02:16] <mdke> if what doesn't?
[02:18] <jsgotangco> doesn't change
[02:19] <mdke> well, then if we're shipping the desktop guide, then we can rewrite it appropriately
[02:20] <jsgotangco> your call sir ;)
[02:20] <mdke> meh
[02:21] <mdke> good night
[02:21] <poningru> and good luck
[03:31] <robotgeek> hmm, lot of furor over software properties
[03:33] <LaserJock> yeah, nothing like the week before release :-)
[03:34] <robotgeek> hmm, i tht a string freeze is a string freeze is a string freeze
[03:35] <LaserJock> umm, I thought freezes were for exceptions ;-)
[03:36] <robotgeek> hmm, anyways. i will go and grab food now. bbl
[03:41] <jsgotangco> hopefully we get to resolve this during the sprint
[09:08] <ghee22> anyone awake?
[09:08] <Burgundavia> ghee22, check, but not for much longer
[09:09] <ghee22> Burgundavia:  i have a made a very rough draft of what the intro prog will look like
[09:09] <ghee22> posting now
[09:13] <ghee22> Burgundavia:  the svg doesn't look good in firefox, will take 3 more min.. warning
[09:13] <jsgotangco> intro prog?
[09:14] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, the new ubuntu welcome centre
[09:14] <jsgotangco> ahh right
[09:14] <jsgotangco> are you mentoring that???
[09:14] <Burgundavia> me, no
[09:15] <Burgundavia> I am merely providing guidance and time where it is needed
[09:15] <jsgotangco> i see
[09:15] <Burgundavia> much like the ChildrensBrowser thing for Edubuntu
[09:15] <Burgundavia> in reality, likely I will be the closest to a useful mentor ghee22 and anselmo will get, unless we step up to the palte
[09:16] <ghee22> http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/ubuntu/productivity.png
[09:16] <Burgundavia> very cool, but I am little concerned about it being non-standard
[09:16] <ghee22> I still have to add in screenshots, just that I wanted the UI to be up
[09:16] <ghee22> definitely important point
[09:17] <Burgundavia> have you tried with that list view I suggested?
[09:17] <ghee22> where may find such standards
[09:17] <Burgundavia> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/
[09:17] <ghee22> I have tried to it, but I feel mirroring the help is not the goal of this project
[09:17] <Burgundavia> specifically 6.25 on this
[09:17] <Burgundavia> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-notebooks.html
[09:17] <ghee22> reading now
[09:18] <ghee22> this may take a while...
[09:18] <Burgundavia> standard gtk bits will make long maintence easier
[09:18] <Burgundavia> plus make your app easier to write, with a minor concern about less than ideal layout
[09:19] <ghee22> ahh, that "list view"... yes, this project is starting to become daunting
[09:19] <Burgundavia> no worries :)
[09:19] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:19] <Burgundavia> we are here to help you succeed
[09:19] <Burgundavia> some of us even code :)
[09:19] <ghee22> haha
[09:20] <Burgundavia> I assume you are doing this in pygtk?
[09:20] <ghee22> you have assumed correctly
[09:20] <Burgundavia> as for content, more than one page gets into the iffy zone for me
[09:21] <Burgundavia> per option/section, of course
[09:21] <ghee22> buy my python is weak.. when I applied on for the project, I threw out my heavy C experience.  But having read a few gtk tutorials, everyone raves of pygtk. so I've picked up a book for python
[09:21] <Burgundavia> python is fairly easy to pick up
[09:21] <Burgundavia> I have even dabbled a little in it, despite my hatred of all things code-related
[09:21] <ghee22> I agree.  may I dare say, fun to learn?
[09:22] <ghee22> at least when compared to java/c.   I did wonder if using mono would be allowed for this project
[09:22] <Burgundavia> iffy, python is a much better choice
[09:22] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: boooo
[09:22] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are you saying that in general, or suggesting he use boo?
[09:23] <jsgotangco>  despite my hatred of all things code-related
[09:23] <jsgotangco> go get a visual basic book then :D
[09:23] <Burgundavia> I have done vb
[09:23] <Burgundavia> again, there are much better ways for me to spend my time than write shitty code
[09:25] <ghee22> just to make sure, is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to stick to the HIG?
[09:25] <Burgundavia> not one hundred percent, but the hig exists for a reason
[09:25] <Burgundavia> you need to make a strong argument for breaking it
[09:26] <Burgundavia> and, no, more bling is a not good argument
[09:26] <Burgundavia> :)
[09:27] <ghee22> How about this:  this more of a marketing program than a productivity program.  Aesthetics are extremely important to .... nevermind, you already answered it 
[09:27] <Burgundavia> again, this should not be a marketing program
[09:27] <Burgundavia> if we want a marketing program, lets write one
[09:27] <ghee22> understood, they already have ubuntu.. wrong chioce of words in mine, this time
[09:28] <Burgundavia> I think a marketing thing would be better served with an impress presentation running full screen in OO.o, rather than a specific program
[09:28] <Burgundavia> then your mockup looks great for
[09:28] <Burgundavia> in fact, I think I am going to have to steal it
[09:30] <ghee22> Yeah.. that's great to hear.  I'll show you more stuff I had in mind... I was going to create a right column with videos for how to get to each piece of software I talk about.  It wouldn't automatically play, but once the user put the mouse over it, it'd start to play 
[09:30] <Burgundavia> there are some really cools we can do with marketing, but that is a different discussion, for the fall
[09:31] <ghee22> yup, I'm interested... ok, list control huh.  looks so unattractive.  :o(
[09:31] <Burgundavia> help is supposed to be boring
[09:31] <Burgundavia> plus don't go on those screenshots, they are ancient
[09:33] <ghee22> that's exactly one of the reasons I think HIG doesn't apply.  if help is boring, the user will close it just as he would in windows.  this may lead to the user not actually learning or wanting to learn.. if you see the windows tour, they totally stray away from their "HIG".  I believe they did this for the same reason I do mine
[09:33] <ghee22> without learning, comes frustration, comes a pirated windows XP
[09:34] <Burgundavia> if we have good first sentence, we should be able to grab them
[09:34] <ghee22> how about, "Don't close me just cause I'm ugly"
[09:34] <Burgundavia> heh
[09:36] <Burgundavia> I think the key thing is that you need to have something in the repo asap when edgy opens
[09:36] <Burgundavia> then we can discuss it muchly on the doc list
[09:38] <ghee22> yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing.. I'm gonna go ahead and make a boring one, but I'm also going to make an html one too.. if that one gets high demand, I'll "port" it to gtk
[09:38] <ghee22> the html one will have the ui I posted earlier
[09:39] <Burgundavia> if you are doing html, then you don't need a new app, you need yelp
[09:39] <Burgundavia> hence, you would have an issue
[09:39] <Burgundavia> if you want to hack on yelp, that is good too
[09:40] <Burgundavia> ghee22, given your knowledge of C, yelp might make a good choice to change direction too
[09:41] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what do you think of the above idea>
[09:41] <Burgundavia> ?
[09:42] <ghee22> ok, I guess one thing at a time.  I'd like to hack on yelp, sure.  that's not my priority right now.  My priority is to finish what's assigned, and there's a lot of work left to do besides the UI.  Here's my final decision.  I'm giong to make this program using HIG.  That means, the next step right now is finishing content.  Mock screenshots will be posted within 2 days using HIG.  that's enough time to scope what they have to say about 
[09:42] <Burgundavia> can I see your project proposal?
[09:43] <ghee22> surely, grabbing.
[09:44] <Burgundavia> if we can achieve what we want in yelp, I don't see the need to create yet another new program
[09:44] <ghee22> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
[09:45] <Burgundavia> hmm
[09:50] <ghee22> updated categories on page
[09:50] <jsgotangco> yelp is pretty extensible and can render html
[09:51] <Burgundavia> I don't see anything in that spec we cannot do with docbook in spec now
[09:51] <Madpilot> need sleep. night all
[09:51] <mpt__> "Welcome to Windows 98, where your computer desktop meets the Internet! Sit back and relax as you take a brief tour of the options available on this screen."
[09:51] <Burgundavia> given that, and that we don't want poor ghee22 to be out of a job, what else can we have him do?
[09:52] <Madpilot> mpt, sounds like you reinstalled Win98 a number of times ;)
[09:53] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what about profiling yelp?
[09:53] <mpt> Yes, it was the base OS at my last cybercaf?
[09:54] <mpt> Burgundavia, yelp doesn't do interactivity
[09:54] <Burgundavia> mpt, what sort do you mean?
[09:54] <Madpilot> night all
[09:56] <ghee22> I think a key sentence in the project proposal which led me to a non-HIG design is this: The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu.
[09:57] <mpt> ghee22, sorry to be coming in halfway through, but have you been accepted for the 2006 SoC?
[09:57] <Burgundavia> mpt, yes
[09:58] <ghee22> mpt, that question is loaded,  apparently I'm not up on the accepted proposals page in ubuntu but I think they may require some interaction from my mentor.
[09:58] <mpt> ghee22, who is (or would be) your mentor?
[09:58] <ghee22> my mentor is simon law and apparently is reading 24,000 emails per hour, god help him
[09:58] <Burgundavia> mpt, realistically. the mentor is the doc team
[09:58] <ghee22> I was assigned to him per janew
[09:58] <mpt> That's more than six messages per second
[09:58] <ghee22> that assignment came late
[09:59] <mpt> Yeah, it seems the SoC has some speed wobbles this year
[09:59] <Burgundavia> ghee22, yelp renders docbook and html quite well, hence the issue
[09:59] <ghee22> wow, he's like the chuck norris of reading emails - simon law doesn't read bug reports, he smashes them with his bare fist
[10:00] <ghee22> burgundavia: the project proposal required a gui app though
[10:00] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:00] <mpt> "MS uses Flash for their tour"? Really?
[10:00] <ghee22> A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu.
[10:01] <ghee22> yes, load it up, and right click
[10:01] <ghee22> they embed flash player 5 in your windows install
[10:01] <Burgundavia> ghee22, can we do an end run around that and have you work on yelp instead?
[10:01] <Burgundavia> there was a plan to embed yelp in the Ubuntu installer
[10:02] <ghee22> it's possible, but my true goal was to create a tour similar to windows xp.
[10:02] <Burgundavia> then you should be working on the installer
[10:02] <ghee22> which is exactly what the proposal stated (the reason why I applied)
[10:02] <Burgundavia> either way, I don't see a need for another program, hence the concern
[10:02] <ghee22> yeah, I guess that's possible
[10:02] <ghee22> we have the tour running during install
[10:02] <Burgundavia> but neither do I want you thrown out on the street
[10:02] <ghee22> ?
[10:03] <Burgundavia> yep, hidden by default by an expander
[10:03] <mpt> Burgundavia, stop eating those lemons :-)
[10:03] <ghee22> well the install is running off the live cd?  so then it can still be an app on its own
[10:03] <Burgundavia> hmm
[10:03] <Burgundavia> not sure the installer should be spawning another program while installing
[10:04] <mpt> An interactive tutorial would definitely be useful
[10:04] <mpt> though its method of invocation could be debated for months
[10:04] <Burgundavia> mpt, but another app for it just invites it to be forgotten after edgy
[10:04] <ghee22> I agree with mpt.. if the user doesn't care about internet, but just productivity, the user should be able to just read that page
[10:04] <mpt> Burgundavia, what special is happening after edgy?
[10:05] <jsgotangco> how are you sure bout that?
[10:05] <Burgundavia> mpt, nothing, but too many projects for last years soc just got forgotten because they failed to consider long term integration
[10:05] <mpt> Burgundavia, or was it more because they were unmaintained?
[10:05] <mpt> What were they?
[10:05] <Burgundavia> I argue they were unmaintained because of the former issue
[10:06] <Burgundavia> we had a backup program and xen one that both failed for that very reason
[10:06] <mpt> Maybe there's a sliding scale of project sexiness and necessity
[10:06] <Burgundavia> tbh, and no disrespect against you ghee22, but I would argue against including yet another app just to show what Ubuntu can do, even if it does get produced
[10:06] <ghee22> the programs discussed are very  mature: Oo.o, firefox, gaim, the games inside are classics.  I think the only updates needed are newer features involved with security, finding information (which I will discuss beagle).  Once the UI is in, it will be very possible only to replace the text and screenshots/video
[10:07] <mpt> In the early days of the Mozilla project, there were many, many people contributing new splash screens for Mozilla to use
[10:07] <Burgundavia> exactly, trying to solve a problem that didn't exist
[10:07] <mpt> because it was relatively easy to do, and it was the first thing everyone saw
[10:08] <mpt> This is quite similar
[10:08] <Burgundavia> ghee22, how extensive is your C experience?
[10:08] <ghee22> grabbing latest thing written in school: 
[10:08] <ghee22> wrote a rudimentary user-level remote file system using ONC (Sun) RPC supporting open, close, read, and write operations in C.
[10:08] <Burgundavia> have you done any profiling? one of the things that sucks in yelp is the speed
[10:09] <ghee22> profiling, no.. I hear those tasks are left for the gods of code
[10:09] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:09] <Burgundavia> one other way is to do the flash integration into ubitquity
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I think that would fit the style of the project very well, and you would deliver a "gui app", just it would be part of a larger one
[10:10] <Burgundavia> hell, we then have an excuse to ship gnash!
[10:10] <mpt> yay
[10:11] <Burgundavia> mpt, was that being sarcastic or happy?
[10:12] <mpt> Burgundavia, happy, I crashed Epiphany on Homestar Runner yesterday
[10:12] <Burgundavia> cool
[10:12] <mpt> and there was no sound
[10:12] <Burgundavia> using gnash?
[10:12] <mpt> yeah
[10:13] <mpt> but not specific to gnash
[10:13] <Burgundavia> not tried it yet
[10:13] <mpt> Ubuntu just goes quiet in general for long periods on this machine
[10:13] <Burgundavia> wierd
[10:13] <mpt> I suppose I should report a bug
[10:13] <mpt> but I have no idea what information I should provide
[10:13] <Burgundavia> ghee22, what do you think of that idea?
[10:13] <Burgundavia> file one and people will ask you
[10:13] <ghee22> I'm feeling really conflicted.  I do really want to help you.  but again, the reason why I applied to this project is because I wanted to do this project.  There may be a million other things that are more important, but this is what is most important to me..   I'm not sure why this project did not go through you when gettting accepted, but apparently someone saw the same vision I did.  And that vision did insinuate the screenshot I put 
[10:14] <crimsun> mpt: recap sound issue, please?
[10:14] <ghee22> mpt, "Simon Law" <sfllaw@ubuntu.com>
[10:14] <jsgotangco> ?
[10:15] <Burgundavia> ghee22, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface
[10:15] <Burgundavia> scroll down to the Progress information section
[10:15] <mpt> crimsun, sometimes (such as right now) Ubuntu doesn't produce any sound, even with volume turned up to the max.
[10:15] <Burgundavia> ghee22, I think that is exactly what you want to be working on
[10:15] <mpt> Burgundavia, seriously, that part of the installer would work very well just as an animated GIF
[10:16] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:16] <Burgundavia> that works too
[10:16] <Burgundavia> I believe there was a crack idea involving sound
[10:16] <crimsun> mpt: across /any/ sound app or just in epiphany?
[10:16] <mpt> crimsun, any, including all the clicks GTK is supposed to be making
[10:16] <crimsun> mpt: lsof /dev/dsp* /dev/snd/*
[10:16] <crimsun> we can migrate to #ubuntu+1 if necessary
[10:17] <mpt> mixer_app 5135 mpt 35u CHR 116,0 8653 /dev/snd/controlC0
[10:17] <crimsun> ok, looks normal/fine
[10:17] <crimsun> does ``aplay /usr/share/sounds/startup.wav'' produce audible volume?
[10:18] <ghee22> Yes, that is very similar in terms of content.  but what if the user just leaves during install.  I know I leave when installing Windows XP tells me the rest will be done automatically.    My vision was to have this as a separate program, especially used on the live cd (when users just try ubuntu) and also on the first install's run
[10:18] <ghee22> which is why I want a separate gui (just as the project proposal contains)
[10:18] <mpt> crimsun, no, just does nothing for ~10 seconds
[10:19] <crimsun> mpt: pastebin ``cat /proc/asound/cards && amixer'', please?
[10:19] <Burgundavia> ghee22, first run is going to run into strong opposition from a number of people and I personally believe that the installer is part marketing, first run should not be
[10:19] <Burgundavia> first run should be pure doc
[10:20] <mpt> "pure doc"?
[10:20] <mpt> crimsun, http://pastebin.com/746340
[10:21] <Burgundavia> not "wow Ubuntu is cool", more "here is how you do X that 95% of you used to do in Windows"
[10:21] <Burgundavia> the installer is about "wow Ubuntu is cool and this is how"
[10:22] <Burgundavia> anyway, I need to sleep
[10:22] <ghee22> yes, but how do we force the user to view this tour. and should we?  what if someone sets ubuntu up for a friend, which I have done 99% of the time w/out the friend there.  I think this should really be completely separate.  perhaps, like windows xp, it should popup in the system tray letting users know about it
[10:23] <Burgundavia> ghee22, we should not be forcing the user todo anthing
[10:23] <Burgundavia> ugh, system tray and popups
[10:23] <Burgundavia> XP is awful for that
[10:23] <crimsun> mpt: hmm, nothing extraordinary. Anything in ``dmesg''?
[10:24] <Burgundavia> ghee22, hence why the part about the installer. Most people are going to stare at it, but you can shrink it if you want
[10:24] <mpt> crimsun, unlikely -- I don't remember exactly when sound stopped, but it would have been a week or two ago
[10:25] <Burgundavia> ghee22, anyway, final thought before I crash. I really love that you are thinking about this, but I really don't see a need for yet another application specifically for this. The isntaller and yelp are great places to put this stuff
[10:25] <mpt> Quite unfairly, I'm going to disagree with Burgundavia after he's gone
[10:25] <ghee22> burgundavia, because I strongly feel the people who install ubuntu, are not the ones that are going to use it.  I've been distributing/installing ubuntu to parents/business students
[10:25] <mpt> ghee22, I think it's an interesting idea
[10:26] <ghee22> yah, he said he was gonna sleep around 3... I feel bad for him, I got him riled up
[10:26] <mpt> I've just mailed Simon asking him to let me know if he likes the idea but doesn't have time to design it
[10:26] <ghee22> thanks
[10:26] <mpt> in which case I'd be interested in helping out
[10:26] <ghee22> mpt, I'm giving simon law some time, after june 1st, I think he'll be more free.  and who knows, he was assigned to me for some reason
[10:26] <mpt> but now I really need to get back to proper work :-)
[10:27] <ghee22> I don't think I'd like burgundavia as a mentor, we'd argue forever, but he is very smart, just has different ideas than me.  ok mpt, I'm going to continue on content.
[10:27] <mpt> crimsun, next time it stops after starting again, I'll grab dmesg and report a bug
[10:27] <mpt> thanks for your time
[10:29] <crimsun> mpt: great, thanks
[10:40] <jsgotangco> i truly doubt if sflaw will be really free after all the bugs come crashing down after release :D
[10:41] <jsgotangco> (or whining rather than bugs)
[10:41] <jsgotangco> ghee22: honestly, some find him dictatorial :D but with good intentions
[10:42] <jsgotangco> (about burgundavia that is)
[10:42] <jsgotangco> :D
[03:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> can i use the fdl.xml in the ubuntu docteams svn repo in my projects? i asume yes, but i thought i should check.
[03:51] <mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: course
[03:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks.
[11:15] <crimsun> is anyone writing a migration guide for hoary/breezy -> dapper?
[11:15] <crimsun> I can think of at least two issues
[11:15] <crimsun> (both sound related, of course)
[11:16] <LaserJock> I think there is something on the wiki at least
[11:16] <LaserJock> or maybe the release notes
[11:16] <mdke> DapperUpgrades probably, or release notes yeah
[11:17] <crimsun> ok, I'll look at the former (wiki), and I presume I'd have to submit something to a mailing list for the latter?
[11:19] <LaserJock> I'm not sure who does the release notes
[11:20] <mdke> crimsun: both wiki
[11:20] <crimsun> ok, thanks