[02:01] <GNAM> @schedule Europe/Rome
[02:01] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 30 May 18:00: Community Council | 31 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[02:02] <zul> @schedule Canada/Montreal
[02:02] <zul> @schedule America/Montreal
[02:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 30 May 12:00: Community Council | 31 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu
[02:10] <Seveas> zul, it works without prefix too
[02:10] <Seveas> @schedule montreal
[02:10] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 30 May 12:00: Community Council | 31 May 08:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 09:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu
[02:18] <zul> ah cool
[12:06] <Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
[12:06] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 30 May 18:00: Community Council | 31 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[03:24] <kaiSVK> hi all
[04:39] <GNAM> @schedule Europe/Rome
[04:39] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 30 May 18:00: Community Council | 31 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 15:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[04:45] <Klaidas> @schedule Vilnius
[04:45] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 30 May 19:00: Community Council | 31 May 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 May 16:30: Xubuntu | 06 Jun 23:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu
[04:46] <ompaul> @now utc
[04:46] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 30 2006, 14:46:15
[05:15] <msikma> @now utc
[05:15] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 30 2006, 15:15:04
[05:17] <Klaidas> if my clock's correct, meeting starts in 45 minutes?
[05:20] <jenda> Looks like it...
[05:34] <msikma> Too bad the meeting starts right after I'm supposed to be leaving work.
[05:45] <thierryn> @now utc
[05:45] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 30 2006, 15:45:09
[05:50] <GNAM> @now Rome
[05:50] <Ubugtu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
[05:50] <msikma> Tsk.
[05:50] <GNAM> .
[05:50] <msikma> @now Amsterdam
[05:50] <Ubugtu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
[05:52] <Seveas> I'm working on the bot
[05:53] <Seveas> @topic
[05:53] <Seveas> @now amsterdam
[05:53] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: May 30 2006, 17:53:40 Current meeting: Community Council 
[05:55] <ompaul> @now utc
[05:56] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: May 30 2006, 15:56:03 Current meeting: Community Council 
[05:56] <msikma> It's time.
[05:57] <thierryn> great
[05:57] <Seveas> mako, elmo, Kamion: ping
[05:57] <jsgotangco> is it a good time?
[05:58] <Seveas> good time for what?
[05:59] <Seveas> this one shouldn't take too long
[05:59] <ogra> Seveas, we're in the middle of building/testing the final isos ...
[05:59] <Seveas> ogra, right
[05:59] <ogra> doesnt look like a good time for a meeting
[05:59] <Seveas> I didn't schedule this meeting, they did that themselves
[06:00] <thierryn> ok, so what's happening, will there be a meeting or not?
[06:00] <eyequeue> (if relevant, the community councit meeting is to start in 1 minute)
[06:00] <ogra> Seveas, you mean they forgot to cancel it themselves ? 
[06:00] <Seveas> ogra, call it what you want to call it
[06:00] <ogra> :)
[06:00] <jsgotangco> eyequeue: there wouldn't be any meeting if there is no council present ;)
[06:00] <Kamion> elmo and I are in the London office here; elmo's trying to get hold of mako
[06:01] <eyequeue> jsgotangco, this happened to me the last time :(
[06:01] <highvoltage> good evening, CC!
[06:01] <Seveas> Kamion, cool, how'bout the sabdfl?
[06:02] <elmo> mako's on his way
[06:02] <azeem> mako had his wedding party last night
[06:02] <elmo> sabdfl sends his apologies
[06:02] <azeem> whoa!
[06:04] <jenda> congrats to mako then ;)
[06:04] <eyequeue> aspirin to mako then :)
[06:06] <mhz> hmm, sorry for being so lost..still have meeting even with release stress?
[06:06] <ogra> looks like
[06:08] <msikma> I have one issue that I'd like to bring up if there is time for it.
[06:08] <Kamion> mhz: in retrospect we probably ought to have cancelled, but it's too late now
[06:08] <Kamion> msikma: ?
[06:08] <msikma> It's related to the Ubuntu wiki's contents set to be released into the public domain soon.
[06:08] <mhz> Kamion: oh, right :D
[06:08] <Yagisan> msikma: I have an opinion on that too
[06:09] <msikma> I mentioned this in response to the mail that was sent about it, and was told to bring it up in this meeting.
[06:09] <Kamion> msikma: that's already on the agenda
[06:09] <Kamion> and will be discussed.
[06:09] <msikma> Yeah, okay.
[06:09] <Seveas> msikma, please wait until mako arrives
[06:09] <Kamion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[06:09] <msikma> Yeah, I put it there.
[06:09] <mako> greetings
[06:09] <msikma> Hi mako
[06:09] <Kamion> ah, excellent
[06:09] <gnomefreak> congrats mako 
[06:09] <jsgotangco> congrats :D
[06:09] <msikma> Congrats?
[06:09] <Seveas> mako: Congratulations!
[06:09] <mako> yes, sorry for being late.. i was up late last night getting married :)
[06:10] <eyequeue> congrats
[06:10] <Seveas> mako, lame excuse ;)
[06:10] <msikma> You got married? Congratulations :)
[06:10] <highvoltage> mako: yes, congrats!
[06:10] <thierryn> congratulations!
[06:10] <mhz> mako: congrats! welcome to the club!
[06:10] <Seveas> anyway: let's get started and not hold up the release team
[06:10] <mako> yes, definitely
[06:10] <azeem> mako: congrats
[06:10] <msikma> What's first on the agenda?
[06:10] <Seveas> msikma's item is up first, about wiki licensing
[06:11] <msikma> Aha, great.
[06:11] <Seveas> I assume everyone has read the agenda
[06:11] <Kamion> so, we had a brief discussion in the office about that (since we wanted to get Mark's opinion too)
[06:12] <msikma> Yeah, about wiki licensing. Like mentioned, I've got some concerns about the content on the wiki. It's great that it is set to be released into the public domain, but I question how it would work for things put on there (code snippets, images, etc.) that the author doesn't want to or can't formally release into PD.
[06:12] <Kamion> (we'd like to get mdke in too, but apparently he's not here)
[06:12] <Kamion> I think we'd be OK with PD as a default with exceptions, if that's sanely implementable in the wiki
[06:12] <Seveas> idle time close to 2.5 hours, he's likely not around
[06:13] <Kamion> Yagisan: unfortunately there is nothing that makes everyone happy
[06:13] <msikma> On Wikipedia, it's easy to simply put a different copyright notice in an image or other inclusion.
[06:13] <Kamion> (I wanted MIT personally, but ...)
[06:13] <msikma> This same system isn't currently in the wiki system we use and would have to be programmed in if this is a solution.
[06:13] <highvoltage> heh, how relevant, we discussed this on #edubuntu today too.
[06:13] <Kamion> do you have any idea how much code that would be?
[06:13] <msikma> I personally don't have a clue, since I've never seen the source code for that wiki system. I'm also not really a PHP hacker.
[06:14] <Seveas> it's python ;) (moinmoin)
[06:14] <msikma> Aha
[06:14] <Seveas> Yagisan, the license has been chosen - this discussion is NOT about which icense to use
[06:14] <Seveas> please stay on topic
[06:14] <elmo> Seveas: err, easy dude
[06:15] <Kamion> Seveas: stop it, he's not advocating a particular licence, he's saying he doesn't like this choice - which is relevant 
[06:15] <mhz> regarding code...it shouldn't be that much...even just replacing one image fro another would work a patch solution
[06:15] <Seveas> elmo: just trying not to go offtopic and keeping you from reease stuff too long
[06:15] <msikma> The problem lies not in the license, but rather the fact that confusion may arise due to such things. At the very least, the license should read "all text in this wiki is released into the PD" rather than "all content".
[06:15] <Kamion> Seveas: we'll be faster if we don't have to have meta-arguments
[06:15] <mako> PD is problematic
[06:15] <mako> because the concept of public domain is not easily internationable
[06:15] <jsgotangco> true
[06:16] <mako> which is why the creative commons public domain dedication is the one license that is *not* part of hte icommons translations and internationalizations
[06:16] <msikma> Maybe include a "if this is not legally possible, the authors waive all rights", mako?
[06:16] <Kamion> mako: we did discuss that, btw - see WikiLicensing
[06:16] <Kamion> or for that matter the e-mail that went out
[06:16] <Yagisan> Seveas: thanks. I was on topic, but that settles it. license revoked of all my work then as this happens far to often. The cange is a step back that can't be enforced.
[06:16] <Kamion> Yagisan: please ignore Seveas
[06:16] <msikma> In any case: if, for example, all wikicode were licensed as PD, there would likely not be a problem since that way you can still include images in pages with a different copyright.
[06:17] <Kamion> Yagisan: this is not settled
[06:17] <msikma> You'd only be releasing the text of the link into the PD rather than the image.
[06:17] <msikma> But that's something a legal expert should confirm!
[06:17] <mako> ok.. the wikimedia text looks nice
[06:18] <msikma> All the PD images on Wikipedia, for example, also say "In case PD is not legally possible, all rights are waived."
[06:18] <msikma> (Paraphrased.)
[06:18] <Kamion> (the problem with CC-BY-SA, and most copylefts, FWIW, was licence compatibility and incorporation into documentation in the distro and stuff)
[06:19] <mako> right, a more permissiable license, BSD style for example, would solve that
[06:19] <mako> even the CC-BY license would solve that
[06:19] <mako> because it allows sublicensing
[06:19] <msikma> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-self
[06:19] <Kamion> mako: I'm with you, but I'm not keen on going over it again and again, particularly since we did do this in a previous meeting and we don't have mdke here
[06:19] <eyequeue> point of clarification: is this discussion about default licensure?  there is still an option for the author to "unless specified as ___" correct? [y/n]  (rather than waiving)
[06:19] <Kamion> I think you were in the previous meeting too :)
[06:19] <msikma> Quoting: "I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law."
[06:20] <msikma> eyequeue: yeah, that's the discussion.
[06:20] <msikma> We should prevent license confusion.
[06:20] <Kamion> in any event: I think we (FSVO we, Mark said he would be happy with this anyway) are happy for individuals to pick a different licence from the default as long as it's clearly marked so that people know what they're doing when they're borrowing wiki content for documentation
[06:21] <msikma> The thing is, it's difficult to enforce people to do that.
[06:21] <mako> Kamion: i'm not really thrilled with that
[06:21] <msikma> Will they have to copypaste something whenever they want to release something in CC-BY-NC, for example?
[06:21] <mako> i mean, it would be fine as long as we set some default limit or base set of expectations
[06:21] <msikma> There are no templates in the wiki system we're using (unless I've simply never FOUND them before).
[06:21] <Kamion> mako: it does make things more complicated but I cannot see that any single option is going to keep even the majority of contributors happy
[06:21] <mako> Kamion: that's fine.. but we should ensure a base line
[06:21] <Kamion> oh, yeah, limiting to "free-ish" licences obviously ...
[06:21] <mako> Kamion: so you can waive or not waive attribution, but you shouldn't block commericial use
[06:21] <msikma> A system like on Wikipedia works very well, but it would take time to program this in.
[06:22] <Yagisan> Kamion: do you have a link (perhaps after meeting) on why CC-BY-SA isn't suitable
[06:22] <highvoltage> blocking commercial use would make it a non-free license, yes.
[06:22] <mako> Kamion: also, that is not part of the proposal AFAICT
[06:23] <msikma> In any case, regardless of the license we'll use, we need to find some (easy) way to ensure people won't accidentally release their works into the public domain.
[06:23] <msikma> I believe that not licensing images by default and stating that all content is PD "unless otherwise stated" is the key to doing this.
[06:23] <Kamion> Yagisan: as I understand it, it's neither GPL-compatible nor GFDL-compatible
[06:23] <gnomefreak> is this gonna change the way wikis are handled in making or contributing to wikis?
[06:24] <msikma> What is this discussion about? The license we'll use or legal rights confusion? The latter is on the agenda.
[06:24] <Kamion> mako: not at the moment, but the proposal clearly needs some work based on the objections received at community-council@ IMO
[06:24] <mako> the GFDL/CC-BY-SA compatibility situation might change
[06:24] <msikma> mako: that will affect later versions of the CC licenses, not the ones there are now.
[06:24] <mako> as in, folks are both sides are interested in solving that problem and working on it
[06:24] <mako> msikma: that's correct
[06:24] <mako> but almost all works, and concievably these too, would be under an "or any later version" clause
[06:25] <Yagisan> msikma: there is confusion with PD. it isn't recognised in all countries. something like a CC license is (TTBOMK).
[06:25] <Kamion> that's not something we would be wise to rely on IMO
[06:25] <msikma> In any case, I don't think we should be discussing which license we're going to use.
[06:25] <msikma> That's a different discussion.
[06:25] <msikma> I would be fine with many different free licenses.
[06:25] <msikma> My point is that it's not always useful to license everything into one specific license since this isn't always possible.
[06:25] <Kamion> --> any possible licence we might choose will have objectors <--
[06:26] <mako> Kamion: that's right, and there's no timescale
[06:26] <mako> msikma: and not everyone is happy contributing in a wiki at all, which is why we have multiple sources of documentation
[06:26] <mako> and even multiple wikis!
[06:26] <msikma> As far as I know, we're not discussing licenses, but rather we're discussing how we can prevent people from accidentally releasing things into the PD that they shouldn't.
[06:27] <Kamion> the wikilicensing proposal already requires displaying a prominent notice
[06:27] <msikma> But this would mean that, for example, you can't post GPL code snippets in the wiki, or post screenshots of themes or icon sets that are non-PD licensed.
[06:27] <Kamion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
[06:27] <Yagisan> mako: ah, according to the email I got, May 10 (1 month after I recived it) all the wiki goes PD
[06:27] <Kamion> Yagisan: *under discussion*
[06:27] <Kamion> ok, let me have a minute to type this
[06:28] <msikma> Kamion: but isn't it so that if I were to post an image on the Wiki of a CC-licensed background, I would be attempting to release it into the PD?
[06:28] <msikma> Which is, of course, impossible.
[06:29] <ompaul> You can split the document and licence each part different, all you need to be is very clear about what you are posting.
[06:29] <mako> i apologize for not being more actively involved in this discussion recently
[06:29] <msikma> ompaul: explain. You mean post the image in a separate wikipage?
[06:29] <Kamion> PROPOSAL: amend WikiLicensing to require implementation of some kind of licence markers in moin for individual pieces of content, and come up with a list of acceptable "free-ish" licences for wiki content from which people can choose; default remains as in the proposal (PD but with the wikimedia text to attempt to deal with internationalisation problems)
[06:30] <Kamion> msikma: ^--
[06:30] <Kamion> licence markers would need to be selectable on posting
[06:30] <msikma> Hmm
[06:30] <msikma> Before I respond to that, let me make a second proposal.
[06:31] <mhz> .oO(hmm, my only concern with licensing is that people do not use my contributions for commercial purposes unless they check with me first :) )
[06:31] <Yagisan> Kamion: I like the idea, but as msikma points out, code, images etc may need a different license
[06:31] <mako> Kamion: i'm still a little worried about going down that path because i think we're going to get a sort of highest common denominotor any any given article
[06:31] <Kamion> mhz: that's kind of highly dubious for us since Canonical is a commercial concern
[06:32] <Kamion> mhz: I think it's a little unreasonable to say that Canonical can't use wiki.ubuntu.com
[06:32] <mhz> yeah, but we all get 'profit' from it :D
[06:32] <Kamion> it's still commercial
[06:32] <mako> Kamion: if one person makes a series of simple changes to many articles and puts them under a more restrictive license, the PD thing becomes moot
[06:32] <msikma> PROPOSAL: amend WikiLicensing to mention how all wikicode is released into the PD, which means that images are excluded (and targets of links posted in the wikicode, of course), and that this is not so in case another license is mentioned for specific pieces of content (such as code snippets and images).
[06:32] <msikma> Of course, it should not be possible to license a normal wiki contribution into one of the non-PD licenses.
[06:32] <mako> Kamion: but if we go that route, i'm happy to help propose a set of licenses that i'm more happy with
[06:32] <msikma> It should be an exception only for code snippets and images, since those are usually already licensed.
[06:33] <Kamion> msikma: there are people who find PD for their text equally unacceptable
[06:33] <Kamion> e.g. Yagisan
[06:33] <Kamion> (we've had other objections too)
[06:33] <msikma> But then you'll have a potpourri of licenses that aren't compatible.
[06:33] <Kamion> well, that's what we have now ...
[06:33] <msikma> I believe that this exception should only and exclusively go for works that are already licensed.
[06:34] <msikma> Your wikicontributions will be PD, but a GPL code that someone has written can only remain GPL.
[06:34] <msikma> That's what I believe will cause the least confusion.
[06:34] <Kamion> I think we'll have a number of valuable contributors say "well, screw you then"
[06:34] <msikma> If some people disagree with the PD, then this should be brought up in a separate discussion.
[06:34] <Yagisan> msikma: well then thanks for unilaterally relicensing my work
[06:35] <msikma> Yagisan: I'd be fine with GFDL as well. I'd also be fine with licensing everything "after June 1" or something similar.
[06:35] <Yagisan> msikma: there is a happy compromise. trhat is choice
[06:35] <mhz> what if people NOT happy with current results of licensing have the chance to wipe out his contribs. from wiki?
[06:35] <msikma> This isn't the license that I'm discussing, but rather the legal confusion that might arise.
[06:35] <Kamion> msikma: many people who write a lot of documentation don't recognise that their work should be treated differently from code
[06:36] <msikma> Kamion: again, I'd be fine with GFDL.
[06:36] <msikma> I don't care about which free license is used.
[06:36] <ompaul> Let us be very clear, PD means that if someone alters something then they can claim ownership and restrict access to that version. That means that someone could come to the page remove lots of the text there declare it immutable then where are you.
[06:36] <msikma> I only care about the fact that there might be legal confusion if we try to license everything on the wiki.
[06:36] <msikma> ompaul: that's not what this discussion is about. I understand the concerns, but let's address them in a separate discussion.
[06:37] <Yagisan> msikma: the wiki was already licensed. It was a CC-BY-SA
[06:37] <msikma> Then let's keep it that way.
[06:37] <msikma> But I doubt that it's a good idea to relicense everything under that license that's posted on the wiki.
[06:37] <msikma> Especially for artwork discussions.
[06:38] <jenda> It's not legally possible to relicense everything.
[06:38] <Yagisan> msikma: as you say, some things like code, and images may need different licenses
[06:38] <mako> msikma: i'd like to see a strong argument for artwork on the wiki being treated differently
[06:38] <Mithrandir> let content dragged in from elsewhere (and with a source reference) to have a diverging licence, then?
[06:38] <mako> msikma: not here
[06:38] <mako> msikma: or now, but in writing
[06:38] <mako> msikma: if one exists, please point me to it
[06:38] <msikma> jenda: you can say that everything after a certain date is licensed differently, if that license is compatible with the old one.
[06:38] <mako> msikma: otherwise, point me to it when it does
[06:39] <msikma> mako: thing is, some people license their artwork under a license incompatible with BY-SA. Such as BY-SA-NC. You cannot relicense such works, even though the license notifier would imply such a thing if you were to post the image.
[06:39] <msikma> The concern is the same with, for example, GFDL content or GPL code.
[06:40] <msikma> I really wish that I could stay around longer, but my work stopped over half an hour ago and we're closing down the studio.
[06:40] <msikma> I'm glad that I could voice my concerns and I hope that they'll be considered.
[06:41] <msikma> I personally am fine with contributing under any free license.
[06:41] <jenda> Exactly - but that would be solved by saying that all is licenced under license X unless stated otherwise.
[06:41] <msikma> All I want is to avoid legal difficulties or confusion.
[06:41] <elmo> umm, JOOI, how much GPL code do we have in the ubuntu wiki that isn't covered by fairuse?
[06:41] <msikma> jenda: yes, but it would also need to be easy to mention a different license.
[06:41] <elmo> I can understand the image/attachment concern, but embedding GPL code seems like a fairly, err, esoteric use case
[06:41] <jenda> elmo: fairuse doesn't allow you to claim a different license
[06:42] <mako> jenda: i don' think that is what he meant
[06:42] <msikma> I'll talk to you later. Thanks for listening, and bye.
[06:42] <elmo> jenda: fair use, in this context, means it's small enough to not be covered by the GPL
[06:42] <Yagisan> elmo: what about embedding scripts ?
[06:44] <jenda> Yes, but posting it in a wiki (which claims all content is PD or other) is violating the GPL, albeit on a tiny level. Anyway, I did'nt want to press the issue further. I think it would be solved if posters simply mentioned that the following snippet is GPL and the wiki only claimed PD 'when not otherwise'.
[06:44] <Yagisan> I'm not sure if all counties have the same idea if fairuse either
[06:45] <mako> alright
[06:45] <mako> this discussion seems to have lost steam
[06:45] <jsgotangco> Yagisan: i agree
[06:46] <Kamion> jenda: no matter what, I think "if not otherwise stated" is a sane approach
[06:46] <jenda> I agree.
[06:47] <Yagisan> I'm concerned. Is the mass-relicense to still go ahead ?
[06:47] <jenda> And a reminder somewhere to mention external licences.
[06:48] <mako> so, what's the protocal/plan for moving forward?
[06:48] <Kamion> Yagisan: AIUI some mass change will still go ahead, but not steamrollering those who object (i.e. objections will be taken into account in some form, whether it be by choosing a different approach to mass-relicensing, or by creating individual exceptions, or by letting people create their own individual exceptions for bits of content)
[06:49] <mhz> Kamion: +1 !
[06:52] <thierryn> ok, so is it all the arguments for this point?
[06:53] <mhz> :)
[06:53] <jenda> It seems everyone is happy, except for the Ubuntu IRC team...
[06:54] <mhz> LOL
[06:54] <mako> alright
[06:54] <mako> lets move on
[06:54] <thierryn> k
[06:54] <mako> so
[06:54] <mako> a number of IRC ops want a list to coordinate IRC related matters
[06:55] <jenda> ping Seveas ompaul
[06:55] <ompaul> that is correct
[06:55] <mako> would it be open?
[06:55] <Seveas> yes
[06:55] <gnomefreak> yep
[06:55] <ompaul> it has to be
[06:55] <mako> well, it doesn't *have* to be
[06:55] <mako> i mean, i think it should be :)
[06:55] <Seveas> it would be for things-to-discuss-in-non-realtime
[06:55] <ompaul> mako, point
[06:55] <mako> open to posting and to subscription?
[06:56] <Seveas> I'd prefer that
[06:56] <eyequeue> (and archives?)
[06:56] <Seveas> completely open, like any other community list
[06:57] <gnomefreak> only thing about open is spamming how do we prevent it?
[06:57] <Kamion> (sorry, I was away; we'll talk to mdke about the output of the previous discussion and try to get something concrete organised)
[06:57] <Seveas> gnomefreak, subscription  required
[06:57] <Kamion> gnomefreak: same as any other ubuntu lists
[06:57] <gnomefreak> ok
[06:57] <mako> Kamion: yes, that sounds right
[06:58] <Kamion> I've got no problem with an ubuntu-irc list; elmo?
[06:59] <Kamion> d'oh, elmo just walked out of the office
[06:59] <Seveas> heh
[07:00] <elmo> what's the policy on it?
[07:00] <elmo> open subscription, open archives, etc.?
[07:00] <Seveas> elmo, as open as possible
[07:00] <elmo> ok, then no problem
[07:01] <mako> that sounds fine then
[07:01] <eyequeue> can anyone raise reason for objections?  and is this for all #ubuntu-* channels on freenode? (scope)
[07:01] <Seveas> eyequeue, twice yes
[07:02] <eyequeue> i have no objections :) was wondering if others could think of any :)
[07:03] <elmo> ok, next?
[07:04] <Seveas> pschulz01 is next
[07:04] <Seveas> (member candidate)
[07:04] <Seveas> pschulz01, your 3-liner please
[07:04] <pschulz01> Please refer to my Wikipage, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulSchulz
[07:04] <pschulz01> but in summary.
[07:04] <pschulz01> Ubuntu Highlights: Handing out CD's at conference (sponsored by Linux
[07:04] <pschulz01> Australia). Bug submissions to Dapper. Various Wikipages addition's edits.
[07:04] <pschulz01> Working towards Ubuntu community tools/resourses for Australians.
[07:04] <pschulz01> Linux Highlights: Involvement in LCA2004 (organiser). Small (trivial)
[07:04] <pschulz01> patch accepted into Linux kernel.
[07:05] <pschulz01> (Is that what you're after?)
[07:05] <Seveas> sort of
[07:06] <Seveas> reading wikipage now
[07:07] <Kamion> heh, about half of the VmWare page just became obsolete
[07:07] <elmo> any other .au team guys around/awake?
[07:07] <shenki> hello :)
[07:08] <elmo> shenki: can you bouche for pschulz?
[07:09] <elmo> vouch too
[07:09] <shenki> vouch? yes
[07:09] <shenki> he's been getting in touch wiht the education department in the state where we live in, with intentions of getting ed(ubuntu) in local schools here
[07:09] <elmo> pschulz01: how long have you been involved in Ubuntu?
[07:10] <pschulz01> Since breezy..
[07:10] <pschulz01> distributing, and promoting locally.
[07:11] <mako> there's not a lot of documentation on the wiki
[07:11] <mako> which, if your contributions are mostly working with the loco teams, makes sense
[07:11] <pschulz01> Spoke with Smurf about starting a Loco when he was in Canberra in 2005 for LCA.
[07:12] <pschulz01> It has only recently taken off.
[07:12] <Kamping_Kaiser> i got asked to come and vouch, sorry i missed the first half
[07:12] <jsgotangco> its good the see team AU awake at this time!
[07:12] <Seveas> @now adelaid
[07:12] <Seveas> @now adelaide
[07:12] <Ubugtu> Current time in Australia/Adelaide: May 31 2006, 02:42:49 - Current meeting: Community Council 
[07:12] <shenki> oh? i thought we were boucheing... making the notch cut in the top (dexter) corner of a shield, to rest the lance when jousting
[07:13] <pschulz01> I put together soem CD artwork for TheOpenCD 3.0.. which was used to distribute locally.
[07:14] <mako> pschulz01: in terms of direct contribution to ubuntu, you only have 3 wiki pages on the wiki
[07:14] <mako> and not a lot of visible activity on LP
[07:15] <mako> if your contributions are primarily through the loco, it would be good to have more people from the loco here to vouch for the work that you've been doing
[07:15] <mako> they can be in writing, on the page
[07:15] <mako> maybe you can do that in the next couple weeks?
[07:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> mako, its between 3.15 and 1am here
[07:15] <Kamping_Kaiser> (depending on state)
[07:15] <mako> Kamping_Kaiser: right, that's why i'm suggesting waiting until next meeting
[07:15] <Yagisan> it's actually 3:30am here
[07:16] <mako> next meeting will be earlier
[07:16] <pschulz01> Happy to wait... 
[07:16] <shenki> mako, as someone who would be intrested in membership myself, what are you looking for? the wiki mentions 'contributions to the community', in what ways are you looking for?
[07:16] <mako> shenki: wiki pages are fine, but i'd like to see more than three of them
[07:17] <mako> shenki: high karma and a bunch of visible contributions to the bts work
[07:17] <mako> lots of participation on mailing lists
[07:17] <mako> patches, maintained packages
[07:17] <mako> testimonials from events planned and executed
[07:17] <mako> etc etc
[07:17] <shenki> okay. do ubunutforums.com count?
[07:17] <mako> shenki: yes
[07:17] <mako> definitely
[07:17] <shenki> cheers
[07:17] <Kamping_Kaiser> mako, so 'easily trackable' community stuff?
[07:17] <mako> Kamping_Kaiser: if you can make the not easily trackable stuff also visible, that's fine too
[07:18] <mako> we don't require easily trackable things
[07:18] <mako> we just require documentation
[07:18] <jenda> (but "I pray for Ubuntu every night" not good enough?)
[07:18] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok. thats fair.
[07:18] <mako> jenda: that's right
[07:18] <Yagisan> mako: (after meeting if more appropriate) what about ubuntu based research projects ? eg sec work
[07:19] <mako> Yagisan: that's fine, as long as its visible and directly benefits the community
[07:19] <mako> and constitutes work on ubuntu
[07:19] <Yagisan> mako: yeah. been working on it since UDU
[07:20] <mako> alright
[07:20] <mako> we should move on
[07:20] <mako> unless pschulz01 or the other CC members object
[07:20] <pschulz01> Please see top of my Wiki page for addition Wikipages that I have been working on..
[07:20] <pschulz01> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulSchulz
[07:20] <mako> pschulz01: it's not a rejection, but i'd personally feel more comfortable with a little more documentation and testimonials
[07:20] <mako> pschulz01: i'm looking at that page
[07:21] <pschulz01> In particuler: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulSchulz/ConnectingUp06
[07:22] <mako> that's great :)
[07:24] <mhz> well, gotta go. Sorry. Bye all! Good luck to those 'waiting-to-become-approved'
[07:25] <thierryn> any other points for pschulz01?
[07:26] <shenki> just a point i'd like to make: he's one of the people un ubuntu-au taking lead
[07:27] <shenki> for example, in the 'meeting' tonight, it was mostly school age kids - nothing wrong with that - but it degraded into a chat about what tv tuner cards people used
[07:27] <mako> listen, i don't doubt that
[07:27] <shenki> he's one of the more ...responsible (the right words dont come to mind at 3am:) ones
[07:27] <mako> but that is exactly what we should have a set of testimonials saying
[07:28] <mako> shenki: i'm glad you're here and it helps
[07:28] <shenki> ok
[07:28] <mako> shenki: but i'd like to see that from a few more people in the community
[07:28] <mako> and especially from existing members
[07:28] <shenki> yeah, i guess that's an issue... the ubunut-au 'comminuty' seems to be a majority the work of paul, after the inital excitement died down (unubut-au is only a few months old)
[07:29] <pschulz01> I did send an email to jdub...
[07:29] <shenki> but yeah, just thought those points needed to be made. see you at the next meeting :)
[07:29] <mako> pschulz01: ok.. lets see if we can poke him
[07:29] <mako> pschulz01: that would be very helpful
[07:29] <mako> you can talk to me during the next couple weeks
[07:29] <pschulz01> Ok.
[07:30] <mako> we've already had the conversation so it should be simple once we build up a little more documentation
[07:30] <mako> alright
[07:30] <pschulz01> Thank you everyone for listening.
[07:30] <thierryn> next pointt?
[07:31] <mako> lets move on
[07:31] <Seveas> next point is you thierryn 
[07:31] <thierryn> k
[07:32] <thierryn> you can take a look at my wiki page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThierryMoisan
[07:32] <mako> we should try to pick up the pace
[07:32] <mako> i need to leave soon
[07:32] <thierryn> in general, I've been working with linux since around 2001.
[07:32] <Seveas> how long have you been working on Ubuntu?
[07:32] <thierryn> I'm using ubuntu since warty
[07:33] <Kamion> any comments from MOTU/desktop folks on thierryn?
[07:33] <seb128> he's around for some time and has some good willing
[07:33] <thierryn> by working you mean helping with bugs?... I think around 1 year  or more
[07:33] <seb128> I've review mostly small patches like desktop files fixing
[07:34] <thierryn> I'm not a very experienced programmer so I try to fix simple bugs so that advanced programmers can work on important stuff
[07:34] <thierryn> I'm also french-canadian so I'm sometime work on the french traduction
[07:34] <thierryn> I sometimes*
[07:34] <Seveas> by*
[07:35] <Seveas> bye* (damn, something's stuck under the keyboard)
[07:35] <thierryn> anything else you want to know?
[07:36] <thierryn> I also packaged libfxscintilla for dapper
[07:36] <mako> great
[07:37] <mako> any other testimonials for thierryn 
[07:37] <mako> ?
[07:38] <thierryn> make : well I don't really have anyone on the french team...
[07:38] <thierryn> mako : there was siretart who had advocated my package but he couldn't be there today
[07:40] <thierryn> mako : I'm poking LaserJock to come...
[07:42] <thierryn> LaserJock : hi
[07:42] <LaserJock> hi thierryn 
[07:42] <bddebian> Awfully quiet in here for a meeting. :-)
[07:42] <thierryn> LaserJock : if you could say some words about me I would be grateful
[07:42] <LaserJock> now?
[07:42] <thierryn> yeah
[07:43] <thierryn> mako is waiting to get testimonials about me and my work for ubuntu
[07:43] <LaserJock> ok
[07:43] <LaserJock> I've known thierryn for quite some time now
[07:44] <bddebian> Are you SURE mako is here? :-)
[07:44] <jenda> yes ;)
[07:44] <LaserJock> he has helped out around -motu and has done quite a bit of work on the .desktop charge
[07:45] <mako> yes, i'm here
[07:45] <LaserJock> he seems to have a slow and steady approach to Ubuntu and I think he has been a pretty solid contributor to Universe
[07:46] <mako> alright
[07:46] <bddebian> I have seen some of Thierry's desktop work as well
[07:46] <mako> there's a decent amount of contributions over a long period of time
[07:46] <mako> i'm happy with membership
[07:46] <mako> elmo, Kamion: ?
[07:47] <Kamion> yep, fine by me (sorry for inactivity, I'm busy with release testing here)
[07:47] <mako> i need to run
[07:48] <thierryn> mako, kamion : thanks :D
[07:48] <Kamion> eyequeue missed out last time too, I think
[07:48] <eyequeue> Kamion, indeed
[07:49] <mako> eyequeue: i've looked at your page
[07:49] <Kamion> aha, but we can get sabdfl in
[07:49] <eyequeue> mako, thanks
[07:49] <mako> eyequeue: i see 3 bugs reported and not a lot of other things
[07:50] <mako> your link to the forum didn't work
[07:50] <sabdfl> hi all
[07:50] <elmo> (thierryn is fine by me too)
[07:50] <Kamion> thierryn: could you visit https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join pleasse?
[07:50] <eyequeue> mako, those links there doesn't whow what they did when written? :(
[07:50] <Kamion> please
[07:50] <bddebian> Hello sabdfl
[07:50] <mako> eyequeue: also, it seems a little irregular to have your real name set to Eye Queue on your key
[07:50] <eyequeue> well, here's the 3line, though not sure how it helps
[07:50] <eyequeue> Evangelical installs, Varied generalized support since January 2005 (irc/forums/wiki/telephone/offline), bug reports, overall attempts to honour Code of Conduct (even apart from Ubuntu-related matters) health permitting
[07:50] <sabdfl> i'm tag-teaming mako, apparently :-)
[07:50] <mako> unless that is, in fact, your legal name
[07:51] <mako> sabdfl: yes, someone is delivering books cases to my home in half an hour, i should probalby be there
[07:51] <eyequeue> mako, at this point in my life, i'm too vulnerable to former stalkers, can't open that up publically (though open to suggestions)
[07:52] <mako> well, that's an interesting question
[07:52] <eyequeue> mako, so basically i should just give up them?  i'm not a coder/artist/writer, i'm mostly bed-bound these days, so not sure how to document much
[07:52] <mako> eyequeue: that's fine.. there are lots of ways to contribute
[07:53] <mako> none of us here see very much of each other :)
[07:53] <eyequeue> mostly it's been "hand-holding" if you know the term
[07:53] <mako> that's fine, but we still documentation of that
[07:53] <mako> through testimonials, etc
[07:53] <mako> but i really need to run
[07:53] <thierryn> Kamion : k, I went to the ubuntumembers join web page now I'm waiting approval
[07:53] <sabdfl> eyequeue: the criteria for membership are deliberately defined in very broad terms to encourage varied kinds of contribution and participation
[07:54] <mako> i'll leave this to sabdfl, Kamion, and elmo and trust them to make any decision
[07:54] <mako> see you all!
[07:54] <bddebian> Later mako
[07:54] <sabdfl> eyequeue: we're pretty open to stories of how that contribution has been made, it just needs to be sustained and substantial
[07:54] <eyequeue> i don't have any testimonials,. unless i start asking $ubuntu, which i've never seen there so would be weird i think
[07:54] <ompaul> good luck mako
[07:54] <sabdfl> cheers mako, see you in Paris
[07:54] <gnomefreak> bye mako good luck
[07:55] <sabdfl> eyequeue: in that case perhaps the best plan is to keep doing what you are doing, but keep a record of bits you contribute on your wiki page
[07:55] <sabdfl> over time, that will turn into a sort of testimonial
[07:55] <eyequeue> sabdfl, "helped foo today; helped bar today"?
[07:55] <sabdfl> and in five to eight weeks, knock here again
[07:55] <jenda> eyequeue: IRC logs, more like...
[07:56] <sabdfl> sure, especially if you do so in public forums and can point to logs or co-contributors
[07:56] <eyequeue> lol, i don't have the 8 weeks, but thanks
[07:56] <sabdfl> eyequeue: it's not a race, ubuntu will be here forever, we hope ;-)
[07:56] <gnomefreak> eyequeue: im always around if you need help with anything
[07:57] <eyequeue> thanks for the offer gnomefreak
[07:57] <gnomefreak> yw
[07:57] <eyequeue> sabdfl, i hope it will too, and here's my chance for a public thank you for all you've done :)
[07:57] <sabdfl> you are most welcome - thanks for your energy and contribution so far
[08:00] <sabdfl> what's next?
[08:01] <eyequeue> i think that's the end of the meeting (per agenda at least)
[08:02] <gnomefreak> i think most of the CC is tied up with release testing
[08:02] <sabdfl> ok thanks all
[08:03] <sabdfl> hold firm - release shortly
[08:03] <bddebian> w00t!!
[08:03] <ompaul> it should be fun
[08:03] <gnomefreak> dapper is great ;) cant wait for edgy to hit servers if this is what we have to look foward to ;)
[08:31] <sabdfl> just to confirm publicly - based on a review by elmo and myself of eyequeue's details we are +1 for him on membership
[08:31] <bddebian> Great
[08:37] <rolando> hello
[08:37] <rolando> I need help, can anyone help me please
[08:40] <lucas> it's not the right place for help. try #ubuntu
[08:44] <rolando> Well, it`s about the meeting
[08:44] <rolando> I wanna know at what time will be, 
[08:44] <bddebian> rolando: Which meeting?
[08:45] <rolando> CommunityCouncilAgenda
[08:45] <rolando> The next meeting of the Council will be at [WWW]  30 May 2006, 16:00 UTC on #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net
[08:46] <rolando> But i`m in venezuela, then I don't know what time will be
[08:46] <lucas> @schedule Venezuela
[08:46] <rolando> Please sorry for my poor english, i have a better Technical English :S
[08:46] <thierryn> rolando : you can also get UTC time by googling
[08:46] <rolando> Cool
[08:47] <bddebian> rolando: You just missed it :-(
[08:47] <rolando> Whao! Yeap I miss it :(
[08:48] <rolando> Well, I'm triying to attend since Hoary :(
[08:48] <lucas> rolando: there are logfiles available
[08:48] <rolando> But how I works in a Philantropic Institution, I miss it every time
[08:50] <rolando> Well, the real Importante it's make the work, I'll translate more and work more with my TEAM 
[08:50] <rolando> I hope see you later, Thanks A lot!