[12:37] <mdke> LaserJock: some edubuntu pages have appeared on the wiki and aren't tagged, can you remind Pete to do so, assuming I've understood correctly that edubuntu documentation is to go to the new wiki
[12:41] <LaserJock> I'll let him know, to be honest I don't really know what is going on with Edubuntu wiki pages
[12:44] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:44] <LaserJock> could be I'm just out of the loop
[12:45] <mdke> there are LTSP docs without it too
[12:45] <mdke> just give him a smack
[12:46] <mdke> OMG, the "s/apt-get/aptitude/g" is still at it
[12:52] <mgalvin> i missed most of that, what was the driving force to undo all the apt-get and make it generic?
[12:53] <mdke> mgalvin: same reasons we do it in our documentation. It is simpler because it doesn't involve forcing a choice of package manager on the reader
[12:54] <mgalvin> ok, i will not stir it up now :-/
[12:55] <mdke> mgalvin: you don't agree?
[12:56] <mgalvin> mdke: i find that the ability to copy paste commands for new users far outweighs annoying a few elitists who are smart enough to use what they want if they don't like apt
[12:57] <jeffsch> hmmm.... it seems to me that "aptitude install package" simply calls apt-get anyway
[12:57] <mdke> mgalvin: what about people who don't like opening a terminal at all?
[12:57] <mdke> they can't copy and paste
[12:57] <mdke> and they are our primary user base
[12:58] <mdke> this is not just some religious dispute between apt-get and aptitude ;)
[12:58] <mgalvin> thats true, i haven't thought enough about a possible alternative "middle ground" solution...
[12:59] <mdke> "install package X" works nicely
[12:59] <mdke> jeffsch: apparently it is more sophisticated in its dependency handling, it installs Recommended or something, and remove orphans
[01:01] <mgalvin> it does, i am not saying i am against what has been done, i guess i am just a command line jockey...
[01:01] <jeffsch> ah. i wouldn't want to use aptitude then if it automatically installs Recommended
[01:02] <mgalvin> my same argument goes against my own to, if readers a smart enough to know the difference they will just type on the CLI
[01:03] <mgalvin> i haven't really used aptitude much, i never really liked it so i tend to be biased toward apt-get
[01:03] <mdke> mgalvin: that's the idea. Generally, if you see the desktop guide, we link to the chapter which describes how to use em all
[01:03] <mdke> so "Install package X from the Y repository (See Adding/Removing Programs)"
[01:04] <mgalvin> i should have my mom read the guide as a test case and see how far she gets :)
[01:04] <LaserJock> well, if it was just apt-get vs aptitude it wouldn't be a big deal
[01:04] <mgalvin> that would be *THE* test ;)
[01:05] <LaserJock> but there is apt-get aptitude synaptic adept g-a-i
[01:05] <LaserJock> we just simply can't get away with saying explicitly what to use without getting lots of people mad
[01:06] <mdke> or without it simply not being helpful
[01:06] <LaserJock> and having some guy running around the wiki s/apt-get/aptitude/g
[01:06] <mgalvin> yea i understand the problem, thats why i didn't want to stir it up :)
[01:07] <mgalvin> what would be nice if the links from in the docs/wiki open up a preferred installer
[01:07] <LaserJock> it's like explicitly telling people to use emacs to edit a file
[01:08] <mdke> well, we make an exception there
[01:08] <mdke> gedit is so good that we recommend it for editing
[01:08] <jeffsch> it might be useful to always specify at least one way of doing it... that way the unknowledgable user doesn't need to stop and go somewhere else and decide what app to use for installing
[01:08] <mdke> it's so far above any other editor... unlike apt-get/aptitude/etc
[01:08] <LaserJock> lol
[01:08] <jeffsch> the one's who know can use the one they've already decided to use
[01:09] <LaserJock> I'd dispute that, but for the new user I suppose ;-)
[01:09] <LaserJock> to mdke's gedit > * comment
[01:09] <mdke> jeffsch: I think even the unknowledgeable user will benefit from learning once how to install software
[01:09] <LaserJock> yes
[01:10] <mgalvin> jeffsch: that is exactly my concern, it is a distraction to have to go somewhere else to learn how to install instead of the info being inline
[01:10] <LaserJock> mgalvin: but you only really have to do it once or twice
[01:10] <LaserJock> and people don't get mad that you aren't using the "right" package manager :-)
[01:11] <jeffsch> mdke: that's true... but, (speaking for myself) i would prefer to get the app installed and play with it, then when i'm ready to learn the other install tools, i can go do that
[01:11] <mgalvin> although, sure in the long run it is beneficial, if they don't give up b/c users are lazy you know ;)
[01:11] <mdke> jeffsch: you're never going to though! ;)
[01:11] <jeffsch> :)
[01:11] <mdke> but above all else, it's a pain for us to go through every line of the guide and work out whether the app is in g-a-i or not
[01:11] <mdke> since some aren't, it made sense to use a nice generic option
[01:12] <jeffsch> mdke: but then i don't need to either... it's right there cut-and-paste
[01:13] <LaserJock> jeffsch: so what line would we use then? what about people who like synaptic or g-a-i?
[01:13] <jeffsch> then they can use synaptic or g-a-i
[01:13] <mgalvin> well, synaptic is also considered and "advanced tool"
[01:13] <mdke> so we'd be telling users by default to use the terminal?
[01:13] <mdke> dude we can't go down that road
[01:14] <mdke> and say "advanced users should use the UI"
[01:14] <mgalvin> your right, we can't just direct everyone to the CLI
[01:14] <jeffsch> use synaptic in graphical environments, and apt-get in command-line environments
[01:14] <mgalvin> does the server guide also use the generic install method?
[01:14] <mdke> no, but I think it should
[01:15] <mdke> jeffsch: then the developers get upset with us for ignoring their default package management tool (synaptic over gai)
[01:15] <mgalvin> see, i think for the desktop guide to stay off the CLI is ok, but the server guide should be CLI
[01:15] <Burgwork> mdke, rtfwp?
[01:15] <LaserJock> mgalvin: why?
[01:15] <jeffsch> we write for ubuntu users, not ubuntu developers
[01:15] <mdke> Burgwork: wikipage... was referring to the locoteam howto. Also, you should really use #ubuntu-locoteams
[01:16] <LaserJock> jeffsch: but ubuntu developers have made a cool app for the users
[01:16] <Burgwork> ah, yes, wiki pages
[01:16] <mdke> jeffsch: the developers write for the users too
[01:16] <mgalvin> LaserJock: almost anyone reading the "server" guide is going to have to hit the CLI to config the server anyway
[01:16] <Burgwork> I would agree with mgalvin
[01:16] <mgalvin> they are already advanced user if they are considering server stuff
[01:16] <mdke> mgalvin: yes, CLI of course, but I still think it should be application neutral, so they can choose whatever package manager they prefer. Especially for advanced users
[01:16] <LaserJock> that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be aware of GUI tools
[01:17] <Burgwork> we are also trying to emphasize best practices with our guides and best practices for a server is no gui
[01:17] <jeffsch> but not all apps are in g-a-i, right?
[01:17] <mdke> Burgwork: sure, but the issue here is not GUI or no GUI, it is package manager neutral or not
[01:17] <LaserJock> Burgwork: perhaps, I guess it depends what kind of server
[01:17] <mdke> so for the server guide, we should still be neutral, so the reader can choose which non-UI package manager they like
[01:18] <mdke> jeffsch: right
[01:18] <jeffsch> if you're exploring around and want to see what you can put on your system, then gai sounds good
[01:18] <LaserJock> yeah, I've used it a few times
[01:19] <mgalvin> wasn't apt-get considered the preferred method at one point (a while ago)?
[01:19] <LaserJock> aptitude is preferred by many devs
[01:19] <mdke> mgalvin: we changed early in this release cycle for the Desktop Guide
[01:19] <Burgwork> true true
[01:20] <mdke> Burgwork: does the Ubuntu Welcome Center chap read the mailing list btw? It'd be nice to have a thread about it
[01:20] <LaserJock> basically, it comes down to this, IMO, if we have to argue about it then I'm sure users will get confused. That is why I think going neutral allows us to be the most helpful while not taking sides
[01:21] <Burgwork> mdke, yes, I made him sign up
[01:21] <mdke> Burgwork: hehe. Good. I mailed JaneW today asking about what vision they had of the spec, and with some preliminary thoughts about it conflicting with the help center.
[01:21] <Burgwork> mdke, yep, did you see our discussion int eh backlog?
[01:22] <mdke> Burgwork: more or less. I don't think it's getting anywhere, the guy is tied to his spec
[01:22] <Burgwork> yep and that is a sad thing, because like I said to him, I really don't see a place for another app
[01:23] <mgalvin> LaserJock: yes your neutralness ;) 
[01:23] <mdke> well, obviously others more important than us disagree
[01:23] <Burgwork> you know JaneW is leaving?
[01:23] <mdke> no, i hadn't heard that. Bummer
[01:23] <mdke> mpt: 
[01:24] <mdke> whoops
[01:24] <mdke> mpt: typo
[01:24] <Burgwork> I see the work being done and then forgotten at the end of SoC
[01:25] <mdke> I see the work being done, not translated and then pushed in on top of the documentation *cough* book *cough*
[01:25] <Burgwork> you know that flash stuff we worked on with mdz a few months back? that should be what he could be working on
[01:25] <mdke> agreed. Possibly with links to sections of the help
[01:25] <mdke> it doesn't hurt unless you slap me with the OFFICIAL book
[01:26] <Burgwork> and then we can work on an awesome docbook frontpage for yelp
[01:26] <mdke> yes, quite
[01:26] <Burgwork> I really loved his mockup. I think I am going to have to steal it
[01:26] <mdke> however
[01:27] <mdke> I think we need to do some talking with people in high places, I'm slightly concerned that the docteam is getting a bit overlooked, especially now that it is really rocking
[01:27] <mdke> for example it would have been nice to have been asked about this spec
[01:27] <Burgwork> I blame jerome
[01:27] <mdke> hmm?
[01:27] <Burgwork> he had access ot the google mentors page and said nothing
[01:27] <mdke> heh, poor bloke
[01:28] <mdke> I know
[01:28] <mpt> oh, lordy, this topic again
[01:28] <Burgwork> I don't think is a big giant plan on Canonicals part
[01:28] <mdke> course not
[01:28] <mdke> mpt: well, not really
[01:28] <Burgwork> I will, however, readily accept the book as being a BIG GIANT PLAN by Canonical
[01:29] <mdke> I hope I get a copy at least
[01:29] <mpt> There is a very easy way to solve this issue
[01:29] <Burgwork> I will send you one if you don'
[01:29] <mdke> all my hard work slating Jono's writing
[01:29] <mpt> Rename the Documentation Team to the Help Team
[01:29] <Burgwork> how about the Needs Help Team ;)
[01:29] <mpt> to make it crystal clear that writing books is not their job
[01:29] <mdke> mpt: we'd have to take over the forums, irc, the Canonical support center... the world...
[01:30] <mpt> the Help Writing Team, then?
[01:30] <mpt> ok, maybe not
[01:30] <mdke> the DON'T TOUCH OUR HELP MENU Team
[01:30] <mpt> haha
[01:31] <mpt> If only there was a Help menu!
[01:31] <mdke> even then Mark would out trump us
[01:31] <mpt> omg
[01:31] <mpt> I hadn't seen this for a few days
[01:31] <mpt> System Documentation [sic] 
[01:31] <mpt> Online [sic]  Documentation
[01:31] <mpt> Community Support
[01:31] <mpt> Commercial Support
[01:31] <mpt> Ubuntu Book Excerpt
[01:32] <mpt> HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHICH ONE HAS AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION
[01:32] <mdke> eh?
[01:32] <mdke> mpt: dude, I exchanged about 15 emails with sabdfl about this, all I got was that I had a view of help which was "too linear"
[01:32] <Burgwork> uhh, isn't help supposed to be linear?
[01:32] <mpt> too linear?
[01:32] <mpt> What does that even mean?
[01:32] <mdke> what can you do?
[01:32] <jeffsch> mpt: simple. you go through each one, line by line, until you find your answer.
[01:33] <jeffsch> :)
[01:33] <mpt> depth-first search!
[01:33] <mgalvin> :), yea get to the end and pay someone to help
[01:33] <mpt> uh oh
[01:34] <mpt> I chose "Book Excerpt" and I get something that's not a book excerpt
[01:34] <Burgwork> jeffsch, better have them check the source code too
[01:34] <crimsun> err, System> Help is ... interesting.
[01:34] <mdke> mpt: I wish you'd let him know how crap it is. Your opinion might carry more weight than mine.
[01:34] <Burgwork> mdke, not likely
[01:34] <mpt> unlikely
[01:34] <mdke> even worse, Book Excerpt is only in English
[01:34] <mdke> so the foreigner does this:
[01:34] <mpt> mdke, kindly reproduce this bug for me
[01:35] <mdke> "oooh, official book, I'll try that first"
[01:35] <mpt> 1. Choose "Book Excerpt"
[01:35] <mpt> what do you see?
[01:35] <Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewPaulThomas?action=diff&rev2=13&rev1=12 <-- this edit tells me everything you need to know mdke 
[01:35] <mdke> "oh, damn, it's in English"
[01:35] <mdke> "oh well, none of the documentation is in my language then"
[01:35] <mpt> mdke, I see not a book excerpt, but a page that tells me how to use the Help menu that I just came out of
[01:35] <mdke> :(
[01:35] <mdke> mpt: no, I can't reproduce that. Got an up to date example-content?
[01:35] <Burgwork> so lets plan to kill the help menu for a better page in Yelp
[01:36] <Burgwork> s/page/front page/
[01:36] <mpt> Burgwork, by "kill ... for" do you mean "replace ... with"?
[01:36] <Burgwork> mpt, yes
[01:37] <mdke> I'll blog about it when Dapper is out the door and Mark won't think I'm just bitter about the book being included, I spent half my time trying to convince him of that too
[01:37] <mpt> mdke, synaptic tells me that I have four out-of-date packages, and none of them are example-content
[01:37] <Burgwork> now that i have been paid, I can say anything I want
[01:37] <Burgwork> I will blog about it tonight
[01:38] <dsas> heh, I just noticed the book mentions enabling hdparm.
[01:38] <mpt> mdke, I have example-content v21, what version do you have?
[01:38] <mdke> mpt: yeah. gnome-panel?
[01:38] <mpt> 2.14.1
[01:38] <mdke> ubuntu16?
[01:38] <mpt> one moment
[01:38] <mpt> how do I tell while synaptic is busy?
[01:39] <mpt> apt-something?
[01:39] <dsas> apt-cache policy gnome-panel
[01:39] <mdke> dpkg -l gnome-panel
[01:39] <mdke> heh
[01:39] <mpt> 2.14.1-0ubuntu16 0
[01:39] <mdke> mpt: and you get what, the firefox hompage?
[01:39] <mpt> dum dum DUMMMM
[01:39] <mpt> mdke, no, a Yelp window containing styled HTML
[01:40] <mdke> wha
[01:40] <mdke> screenie?
[01:40] <mpt> "Welcome to Ubuntu 6.06 LTS!"
[01:40] <mpt> so, this is a bug, then
[01:40] <mdke> yeah
[01:40] <LaserJock> apt-cache madison gnome-panel :-)
[01:40] <mpt> package example-content?
[01:40] <mdke> mpt: could be gnome-panel actually, the link sounds wrong
[01:41] <mdke> you should get http://mdke.org/tmp/book.png
[01:41] <mdke> ok, it's late. gnight all
[01:41] <mpt> mdke, no :-( ... goodnight
[01:44] <mpt> oh, man, more Microsoft typography on the cover of the Ubuntu book
[01:44] <mpt> ok, no more negative statements from me today
[01:44] <mpt> I'm a happy person
[01:49] <mpt> bug 47596 reported
[01:49] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 47596 in Ubuntu ""Ubuntu Book Excerpt" doesn't show book excerpt (shows "Welcome to Ubuntu" instead)" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47596
[01:51] <mpt> ... "You can see what changes have been made recently, and contribute thoughs and ideas to help shape the direction that Ubuntu takes yourself."
[04:56] <Burgundavia> hmm, just missed mgalvin
[04:58] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OSSGeeks <-- huh
[05:00] <LaserJock> what the heck?
[05:01] <Burgundavia> no idea
[05:01] <Lathiat> ...
[05:01] <Lathiat> right
[05:01] <Burgundavia> by someone called "Ubuntu Logs"
[05:01] <Lathiat> no revisions either
[05:01] <Lathiat> whack
[05:02] <Burgundavia> I hate the wiki for this not knowing who this person is
[05:42] <Burgundavia> mdke, uhh, how do I buy from this page? http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
[05:47] <LaserJock> I don't know that you can yet
[08:08] <Burgundavia> evening robitaille 
[08:08] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[08:08] <jsgotangco> meh
[08:08] <jsgotangco> how big is the army of france?
[08:10] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, uh?
[08:10] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: heh i went to the consul today for my visa
[08:11] <jsgotangco> but they're asking for a lot of stuff
[08:11] <jsgotangco> its workable but its irritating
[08:18] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: it might be easier for you
[08:23] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: how so?
[08:24] <jsgotangco> i dunno
[08:24] <jsgotangco> pommie blood? heh i doubt that
[08:24] <highvoltage> in my experience nothing simple happens easy for me
[08:24] <jsgotangco> actually going to australia is much easier than this
[08:24] <jsgotangco> (i didnt even appear in person)
[08:25] <highvoltage> geez, i think the pommie blood is from ancient ancestors. i'm like, 5th generation south african :)
[08:29] <Burgundavia> back and black in dapper
[08:30] <jsgotangco> heh
[08:31] <jsgotangco> its sooo handy when you're out
[08:31] <Burgundavia> in breezy, default boot was 250+ mb
[08:31] <Burgundavia> dapper is 136
[08:32] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: did you get to read the newsletter i wrote in 10 minutes for edubuntu? did you like it?
[08:32] <jsgotangco> or was it horrible
[08:32] <Burgundavia> it looked good to me
[08:32] <jsgotangco> for you *that* is a complement
[08:32] <jsgotangco> (knowing you)
[08:33] <Burgundavia> are you saying i don't offer many complements?
[08:33] <jsgotangco> no i just feel you're a bit hard to please
[08:33] <jsgotangco> (in a good way)
[08:33] <Burgundavia> I didn't parse the whole thing, but the headings grabbed me and I didn't see any major typos/grammar errors
[08:34] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that's good to know
[08:35] <Burgundavia> yes, I am very hard to please
[08:35] <Burgundavia> makes it hard for me to live with me
[09:16] <mdke> Burgundavia: you can't at the moment, we have no books there yet
[09:16] <Burgundavia> mdke: hmm, then I guess we might want to mention that on that page
[09:17] <Burgundavia> because I spent about 15 minutes trying to get a book and failed
[09:17] <mdke> Burgundavia: haha. Yes, ok
[01:33] <bhuvan> mdke & team: congrats! well done and guess it's wonderful moment for all of us!
[01:40] <jsgotangco> bhuvan: it'll be much sweeter when you receive the CD...then see your labour of love
[01:42] <bhuvan> jsgotangco: yeah!
[06:32] <LaserJock> mdke: ping?
[07:30] <mdz> I've made substantial edits to DapperReleaseNotes to remove the mirror list (which will be more up-to-date in the announcement and website news), etc.
[07:33] <LaserJock> cool
[07:34] <crimsun> mdz: hmm, the Known Issues on DRN look pretty important, so I guess my queued notes for sound don't belong there
[07:34] <crimsun> err, s/mdz//
[07:34] <crimsun> (sorry)
[08:34] <Burgwork> http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tools/screenshots/printcosts.jpg <-- hmm, gee, that isn't Suse!
[08:42] <mdke> LaserJock: pong
[08:51] <LaserJock> mdke: the kubuntu release notes are umm, messy
[08:51] <mdke> ah
[08:51] <mdke> LaserJock: the words or the markup is messy?
[08:52] <LaserJock> words
[08:52] <mdke> oh dear
[08:52] <LaserJock> Kamion asked us to look at it
[08:52] <mdke> right, where are they?
[08:52] <LaserJock> he said they were unprofessional
[08:52] <LaserJock> kubuntu/releasenotes
[08:53] <LaserJock> I think he wants it to go in -updates
[08:53] <mdke> are they being shipped currently with dapper?
[08:53] <LaserJock> I believe so
[08:54] <LaserJock> I think that might be where he saw it
[08:54] <mdke> so he's removed them?
[08:54] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[08:54] <LaserJock> I think he wants it fixed for -updates
[08:54] <mdke> ok, updating them shouldn't be a problem, they aren't translated
[08:54] <mdke> we need to get some kubuntu guys on it
[08:55] <mdke> robotgeek ^^
[08:55] <mdke> Burgwork: as far as you are concerned, are we good to go for the wiki move?
[08:55] <mdke> highvoltage: ^
[08:56] <LaserJock> it references some breezy stuff, has lines like "Wahoo a sweet new installer is available for Kubuntu 6.06!!!!", lots of typos, etc. :(
[08:56] <mdke> holy shit
[08:56] <highvoltage> mdke: to be quite honest, I don't know for sure. I haven't checked all the important pages for the CategoryDocumentation yet
[08:56] <highvoltage> but--
[08:56] <highvoltage> since the move won't break any links, I don't think there will be any problems.
[08:57] <highvoltage> mdke: are there any anticipated problems for a premature move?
[08:57] <mdke> right, you can always move things by hand if they don't get caught
[08:57] <mdke> highvoltage: premature how?
[08:57] <highvoltage> mdke: premature as in, not all pages tagged yet
[08:58] <highvoltage> mdke: but from what you've said, I think things should be fine
[08:58] <Burgwork> mdke, afaik, no
[08:58] <mdke> highvoltage: yeah. I tagged all the UbuntuLTSP pages yesterday
[08:58] <mdke> Burgwork: great
[08:58] <Burgwork> mdke, what is the plan for the pages left behind? Are we making them redirects? Can we lock them somehow?
[08:59] <mdke> Burgwork: they refresh to the new page
[08:59] <Burgwork> ah, that is good
[08:59] <Burgwork> but how do we prevent stupid people from editing the redirect pages?
[09:00] <LaserJock> Burgwork: what? stupid people on our wiki?
[09:00] <Burgwork> no, never ;)
[09:00] <mdke> Burgwork: "the new page" meaning the same page on the new wiki
[09:00] <highvoltage> hehe!
[09:00] <mdke> it's actually surprisingly difficult to edit the old page
[09:00] <Burgwork> ok
[09:00] <Burgwork> suprisingly difficult is something stupid people are suprising good at
[09:01] <mdke> Burgwork: you have to go back to the old wiki, insert ?action=show in the top and then click edit
[09:02] <Burgwork> ah, ok
[09:11] <mdke> website looks really nice
[09:11] <mdke> I like the new side menus heaps more
[09:11] <LaserJock> which website?
[09:11] <mdke> www.u.c
[09:12] <LaserJock> ohhhhhhh, nice
[09:12] <mdke> ok, looks like our hero znarl is going to do the wiki/help.u.c move tomorrow or friday
[09:14] <LaserJock> an englishman that doesn't like custard? weird
[09:16] <crimsun> keybuk's secretly...french?
[09:16] <mdke> haha
[09:18] <mdke> Burgwork: one thing we need to sort out is who gets permission to delete/rename pages
[09:18] <LaserJock> crimsun: must be, that's the only explanation
[09:18] <Burgwork> mdke, ALL ME!!!
[09:18] <mdke> Burgwork: the wiki team would sound sensible, but I haven't checked who is there
[09:18] <Burgwork> wiki team is pretty good
[09:18] <Burgwork> let me cleanout old people
[09:19] <mdke> Burgwork: current list is at https://new-help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup
[09:20] <mdke> you'll hopefully need to log in to see it
[09:20] <Burgwork> no can do
[09:20] <mdke> eh?
[09:20] <mdke> you can't log in, or you can't see it?
[09:21] <Burgwork> can't see it
[09:21] <mdke> that's good
[09:21] <Burgwork> the launchpad team seems pretty good to me
[09:21] <Burgwork> some names I do recognize
[09:21] <mdke> heh
[09:21] <Burgwork> don't, I should say
[09:22] <mdke> we can either add them all at once, or wait until they come along and ask
[09:22] <Burgwork> I would do the latter
[09:22] <Burgwork> in which case maybe I should deactivate everybody and ask them to rejoin?
[09:23] <mdke> Burgwork: nah, doesn't matter I'd say
[09:23] <Burgwork> ok
[09:23] <Burgwork> we can always turn somebody off if they start abusing it
[09:23] <mdke> Burgwork: the LP group doesn't get the privileges automatically
[09:24] <mdke> they have to be listed on that wiki page I showed ya
[09:26] <mdke> Lathiat: ping?
[09:26] <mdke> actually, brb
[09:38] <ploum> Hello
[09:39] <ploum> I'm looking for a good english speaker that can correct my announce for the release of Dapper
[09:40] <LaserJock> hmm, good is sort of subjective
[09:40] <Burgwork> ploum, I can help you
[09:41] <ploum> Burgwork: can I send you the text by email or anything else ?
[09:41] <ploum> (it's a bit "special", it's my style)
[09:41] <LaserJock> I'm a native speaker, which means I have horrible enlish skills :-)
[09:42] <ploum> LaserJock: I'm a french speaker...  That must tell you how bad my english is
[09:42] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you spelling is pretty good too ;)
[09:42] <Burgwork> ploum, fire away
[09:42] <crimsun> sure, post the url 
[09:42] <ploum> no URL now
[09:42] <ploum> I want to keep it confidential before the release ;-)
[09:43] <ploum> Burgwork: which email ?
[09:43] <LaserJock> ploum: get crimsun or Burgwork to do it, they are good with these kinds of things
[09:43] <Burgwork> corey.burger@gmail.com
[09:45] <ploum> Burgwork: done
[09:45] <ploum> thanks for your help
[09:46] <ploum> This way I will not be too ashamed when it will be published on puc
[09:46] <Burgwork> ploum, you are on drugs
[09:47] <ploum> I hope not
[09:47] <Burgwork> either that, or the french gov has spike the water
[09:48] <ploum> I'm a belgian :-)
[09:48] <ploum> ;-)
[09:48] <Burgwork> right, anyway
[09:48] <Burgwork> just a sec, on the phone
[09:49] <robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay
[09:54] <Burgwork> ploum, aside from the complete insanity of it, the english is good, afais
[09:54] <ploum> Burgwork: thanks a lot :-)
[09:55] <ploum> I improve it every day thanks to Ubuntu
[09:58] <ploum> My friends consider me insane because I don't use Windows nor MSN ...
[09:58] <ploum> if even the Ubuntu community considers me insane..
[09:59] <Burgwork> ploum, we consider you insane is the "good" way
[09:59] <ploum> :-D
[09:59] <ploum> To be honnest, I also consider you as insane..
[10:00] <ploum> due to the incredible amount of work you are doing
[10:00] <Burgwork> me, I am pure sloth
[10:00] <Burgwork> I do nothing of Ubuntu
[10:00] <ploum> But the most insane is still seb128, no doubt about it
[10:01] <crimsun> you're starting to sound like bddebian, Burgwork :p
[10:01] <LaserJock> lol
[10:06] <ToHellWithGA> hi
[10:06] <ToHellWithGA> is this the right place for a suggestion about the site?
[10:06] <LaserJock> the ubuntu.com website?
[10:06] <ToHellWithGA> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BurningIsoHowto <- has no details about burning in ubuntu
[10:06] <ToHellWithGA> *in linux
[10:07] <robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/release-notes/C/index.html seems to be aimed for Edubuntu?
[10:07] <LaserJock> ah, well you are welcome to fix that if you want
[10:07] <LaserJock> robotgeek: that was fixed on the wiki
[10:08] <robotgeek> ah, okay
[10:09] <LaserJock> robotgeek: but it probably should be fixed in the repo too
[10:09] <LaserJock> ToHellWithGA: I think that wiki page is designed for getting info to burn an Ubuntu install cd
[10:10] <ToHellWithGA> i'm looking to burn a new install CD of the dapper pre-release but have no way to do so
[10:10] <ToHellWithGA> *to my knowledge
[10:10] <ToHellWithGA> i'll check some IRC help channels, but i understand the angle you're coming from
[10:10] <LaserJock> oh, I think nautilus does that
[10:10] <ToHellWithGA> thanks LaserJock.  I'll try that.
[10:10] <ToHellWithGA> Peace
[10:11] <Burgwork> LaserJock, umm, that page does
[10:11] <Burgwork> first thing
[10:11] <LaserJock> doh
[10:12] <Burgwork> I know because I wrote/cleaned up most of that page
[10:14] <LaserJock> I didn't bother to look
[10:14] <LaserJock> I assumed he was right
[10:15] <Burgwork> heh
[10:17] <LaserJock> gotta stop making that mistake
[10:17] <LaserJock> Burgwork: any fallout from the packaging project?
[10:17] <Burgwork> I have heard nothing yet
[10:17] <Burgwork> you?
[10:18] <LaserJock> nothing
[10:18] <Burgwork> it is not my problem and I have other things to worry about
[10:18] <mdke> what project is that?
[10:18] <Burgwork> mdke, something for work
[10:19] <Burgwork> LaserJock, can you send us a bill?
[10:20] <LaserJock> umm, I guess
[10:20] <mdke> Burgwork: what shall we do with the homepage of the new wiki? Copy across UserDocumentation and make a redirect from there to Home? Or write a new page? Or make UserDocumentation the homepage by default?
[10:20] <mdke> I'd say the first of those, myself
[10:20] <Burgwork> the latter
[10:20] <mdke> ok
[10:20] <mdke> yeah, that works too
[10:20] <Madpilot> hi all
[10:20] <Burgwork> hey Madpilot 
[10:20] <Madpilot> So I tried a dist-upgrade last night, and it's eaten my install... :(
[10:20] <mdke> oh dear
[10:20] <Madpilot> currently on a Flight7 LiveCD
[10:20] <mdke> I hope you didn't lose any data
[10:21] <Burgwork> Madpilot, hmm, mine went flawlessly
[10:21] <Madpilot> no, everything is still there, GDM just won't start
[10:21] <mdke> reconfigure X?
[10:21] <Burgwork> dpkg-reconfigure xorg-server
[10:21] <Madpilot> yeah, I need to poke around this evening
[10:21] <Madpilot> GDM gets to the login screen, then it won't log me it
[10:22] <Madpilot> "GDM could not write to your authorization file..."
[10:22] <ploum> good night folks
[10:22] <Burgwork> hmm, .ICEauthorization
[10:22] <Burgwork> check the permissions on that
[10:22] <Burgwork> oh, and file a bug
[10:23] <Madpilot> Burgwork, could be that, but it looks like the dist-upgrade has also choked my / partition - df -h shows it at 100% full
[10:23] <Burgwork> hmm, that is likely your issue
[10:23] <Burgwork> didn't you have that issue with logs earlier?
[10:23] <mdke> Madpilot: maybe your apt cache
[10:24] <Madpilot> mdke, could be. I need to reboot to the recovery console & see
[10:24] <Madpilot> Burgwork, yeah -was that during dist-upgrade Hoary->Breezy, or was that something else?
[10:24] <mdke> you can't log in from a console?
[10:24] <Madpilot> I can, recovery mode from GRUB works
[10:24] <Burgwork> Madpilot, no, remember when your hdd was dying and it filled the hdd with logs?
[10:25] <mdke> not a console in normal mode?
[10:25] <Madpilot> mdke, not thru GDM, no.
[10:25] <mdke> Madpilot: GDM isn't a console :) do Ctrl Alt F1 and try logging in
[10:25] <LaserJock> Madpilot: no, the Ctrl-Alt-F1 kind
[10:25] <Madpilot> gah - I keep forgetting you can get out of GDM to the 'real' console
[10:25] <Madpilot> will try that later
[10:26] <LaserJock> hehe, I forget what GDM looks like because I'm alway in a console ;-)
[10:27] <LaserJock> although I've really tried to use more GUI stuff since I installed Ubuntu on a machine at work
[10:27] <Madpilot> I'm primarily a GUI user - does it show? ;)
[10:28] <LaserJock> I'm pretty impressed with Nautilus and even that gedit think ;-)
[10:28] <crimsun> I love X Windows. I can open a bazillion terminal emulators.
[10:29] <Madpilot> crimsun, or just one copy of gnome-terminal with a bazillion tabs
[10:29] <Burgwork> you see that gedit will have regex soon?
[10:29] <crimsun> Madpilot: that hurts for coding.
[10:29] <crimsun> alt+f2 for vimdiff -g, but otherwise I need separate windows
[10:30] <robotgeek> i like svn diff also 
[10:31] <LaserJock> I'm a tab junkie, poor firefox gets mad when I load up 20 tabs
[10:32] <robotgeek> i prefer konq for most of my stuff, and use the open in firefox option if something doesn't work
[10:32] <LaserJock> I bounc between KDE, Gnome, openbox, xfce, OS X and XP enough that I like having the consistency of firefox
[10:33] <crimsun> opera's just about the only browser I've used that can handle having as many tabs open as I tend to
[10:33] <Burgwork> I have found epiphany is very good at multiple tab handling, something that FF is very bad at
[10:33] <LaserJock> really? I've never tried opera
[10:34] <LaserJock> nor epiphany really
[10:34] <crimsun> again, though, I run into "I can't read this tab because the bar is too narrow because there are ninety tabs"
[10:34] <crimsun> epiphany rocks
[10:34] <mdke> I don't really like the way epiphany doesn't narrow the tabs when you have lots open
[10:34] <crimsun> hence I have to have six or seven different browser windows just for legible tabs
[10:34] <mdke> i don't like having to scroll sideways
[10:35] <crimsun> mdke: see, that's why I have lots of browser windows open
[10:35] <crimsun> regardless which browser I choose, the tab thing always bites me in the arse
[10:36] <Burgwork> mdke, ya, that is a gtk buyg
[10:37] <LaserJock> well, it is a lot better than the OS X situation
[10:37] <LaserJock> the tabs just drop off the end
[10:38] <robotgeek> LaserJock: even in camino?
[10:38] <LaserJock> so you have to hit a little button on the far right of the tab bar to get a list of the leftovers
[10:38] <LaserJock> safari and camino both do it I think
[10:38] <robotgeek> i use to prefer camino to firefox on OS X, now i am not sure
[10:38] <mdke> Burgwork: no, epiphany chooses to do that
[10:39] <LaserJock> robotgeek: I've tried firefox, safari, and camino. they all suck to varying extents
[10:40] <mdke> Burgwork: I can kinda understand why, it's not so bad
[10:40] <LaserJock> I sure wish I could get gnome in OS X, stupid x86 mac :(
[10:40] <LaserJock> I want gedit and epiphany and yelp
[10:40] <robotgeek> how is the gtk os project coming along?
[10:41] <robotgeek> gtk os x , err
[10:41] <LaserJock> I thought it was dead, or at least not very active
[10:41] <crimsun> LaserJock: http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/gedit
[10:41] <LaserJock> and fink/darwin ports don't really work on the DE level
[10:42] <LaserJock> lates fink gives me 2.12
[10:43] <Madpilot> off to work - I'll work on my busted system later tonight. Wish me luck...
[10:43] <LaserJock> and no yelp and no epiphany
[10:43] <mdke> Madpilot: good luck!
[10:44] <crimsun> LaserJock: welcome to fink, would you like to contribute a 2,14,2 build?
[10:44] <crimsun> :-)
[10:44] <LaserJock> crimsun: no, because it won't work
[10:44] <crimsun> we're counting on YUO
[10:45] <LaserJock> firefox won't work on fink/darwin ports and so anything that relies on that, yelp is one and I would think epiphany too, won't work
[10:45] <LaserJock> until Firefox 2.0 i've heard
[10:46] <crimsun> haven't checked xulrunner for fink
[10:46] <LaserJock> anyway, I've just about had it with fink and darwin ports
[10:46] <Gwaihir> piccola domanda... nessuno di voi a problemi con fglrx ultimamente?
[10:46] <mdke> hah
[10:46] <Gwaihir> sorry.... wrong tab!
[10:46] <Gwaihir> :)
[10:46] <mdke> disgraziato
[10:46] <crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, go away and use your silly os x :P
[10:46] <LaserJock> VNC baby
[10:47] <Gwaihir> ;)
[10:47] <LaserJock> although since the Ubuntu computer is about 4 feet from my desk I can do X forwarding pretty well too
[10:48] <mdke> low latency
[10:49] <LaserJock> I don't think it will work so well from Paris so I'm going to have to figure something out :/
[10:49] <LaserJock> my wife totally doesn't want me to take her Windows laptop out of the country :-)
[10:51] <mdke> you need to put your foot down
[10:51] <mdke> tell her, no more windows
[10:53] <LaserJock> lol, sure, right, yeah
[10:53] <mdke> worksforme
[10:53] <LaserJock> getsmekilled
[10:54] <LaserJock> actually, I'll probably end up dual booting it
[10:54] <robotgeek> LaserJock: give her windows in a vmware
[10:54] <LaserJock> and I already told her I need to take it with me
[10:54] <LaserJock> robotgeek: it isn't so much the Windows part, she doesn't particularly like Windows
[10:55] <robotgeek> it will be so slow, that she will use Ubuntu :)
[10:55] <LaserJock> she know that if it has Ubuntu on it she'll never get to use it again
[10:55] <LaserJock> and she is probably afraid I'll forget it somewhere in Paris
[10:55] <LaserJock> absent minded professor syndrome
[10:56] <crimsun> better than the laptop stolen at $conference syndrome
[10:56] <LaserJock> well, that too
[10:57] <LaserJock> I'm might have told her about ajmitch's laptop at UBZ (I think that was it)
[10:58] <LaserJock> anywho, that is waay OT
[10:58] <mdke> violent wife eh
[10:58] <LaserJock> not exactly violent, but she has her ways :-)
[10:58] <mdke> my girlfriend complains because she can't read the italian soap websites without IE
[10:58] <mdke> but she has learned to live with it
[10:59] <LaserJock> hehe, my wife just doesn't like computers too much. wouldn't matter OS it was
[10:59] <crimsun> $Ubuntu qualifies as a S.O.
[10:59] <Burgwork> hmm, likely
[11:01] <LaserJock> anyway, hopefully I can take the camera too :-)
[11:01] <LaserJock> that cost a bit, and has a case at least so I'm less likely to loose it completly
[11:02] <LaserJock> it doesn't help that I forgot my wallet when I left the house this morning (for like the 3rd time this month)
[11:02] <LaserJock> hard to instill confidence when I can't remember where I put anything ;-)
[11:05] <crimsun> it's quite simple. Duct tape all essential things to Canonical laptop.
[11:05] <mdke> ouch
[11:06] <LaserJock> hmm, if I had a Canonical laptop I'd consider it. Although duct tape may make it a bit hard when I need an item :-)
[12:02] <mdke> Burgwork: can you approve pete savage for the wiki team? he's done lots of edubuntu stuff
[12:02] <Burgwork> mdke, will do
[12:02] <mdke> thanks dude
[12:03] <mdke> Burgwork: it might be worth changing the owner of that group too
[12:03] <mdke> Dino Solon A. Agcambot ??