[12:04] <Burgwork> mdke, I am going to deactivate anybody I don't know with a comment to email me
[12:04] <mdke> that guy is just collecting teams, surely! he has almost as many as Bluekuja 
[12:04] <mdke> good plan
[12:04] <Burgwork> how do I change the ownership to myself?
[12:04] <mdke> I have no idea
[12:04] <mdke> let's bug kiko or someone
[12:06] <LaserJock> oh man, wiki LP stuff is nuts
[12:07] <LaserJock> lots of people have wiki in their LP ID
[12:07] <LaserJock> and the wiki team is just wikiteam, not ubuntu-wiki (which is "owned" by somebody else)
[12:08] <Burgwork> I should change the wiki team to ubuntu-wiki
[12:08] <LaserJock> already taken though
[12:09] <mdke> eh?
[12:09] <mdke> blimey
[12:09] <Burgwork> there is somebody at ubuntu-wiki
[12:10] <mdke> yeah
[12:11] <LaserJock> maybe ubuntu-supa-dupa-wiki ?
[12:13] <Burgwork> mdke, I like collecting teams. Besides, is there any real harm?
[12:13] <mdke> Burgwork: no problem from me on wiki, I have no idea of your role in the marketing team
[12:13] <Burgwork> unless I get hit by a bus I have proven myself to be fairly relible
[12:17] <LaserJock> mdke: wrt to tagging pages for the move, what about a workflow page that is linked to from a doc?
[12:17] <LaserJock> does the link stay intact?
[12:18] <LaserJock> and should I move the workflow page?
[12:18] <mdke> LaserJock: example?
[12:19] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/Worksheet is linked to from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook
[12:19] <mdke> up to you
[12:19] <LaserJock> I mean the Worksheet page is obviously not documentation, but it is used for WIP docs
[12:19] <mdke> move it if you want. Yeah, links to non-docs from existing docs will break
[12:20] <mdke> either move it or fix the link to point at the spec
[12:20] <LaserJock> k
[12:23] <Burgwork> hmm, no jerome around
[12:32] <Burgwork> mdke, shall I deactivate Sean from teh doc team?
[12:33] <Burgwork> LaserJock, I accept bribes ;)
[12:33] <LaserJock> hmm, $150 enough?
[12:33] <LaserJock> ;-)
[12:33] <Burgwork> rofl
[12:34] <Burgwork> LaserJock, have you received any patches from John Patrick Davies?
[12:34] <Laser_away> stupid meetings :/
[12:34] <Laser_away> yes, once I believe
[12:34] <Burgwork> Laser_away, has he ever applied for svn rights?
[12:34] <Laser_away> he's a Kubuntu guy
[12:34] <Laser_away> I didn't think so
[12:35] <mdke> Burgwork: yeah.
[12:35] <Burgwork> ok, will do
[12:35] <Burgwork> what should I say?
[12:35] <Burgwork> lack of sustained contribution?
[12:35] <Laser_away> <- is really gone now
[12:36] <mdke> Burgwork: no, just inactive for a long time
[12:36] <theCore> Laser_away: when you will be back, I want to tell you some ideas about the organisation of the Packaging Guide
[12:36] <Laser_away> theCore: cool, I'll be done in 2 hrs
[12:36] <theCore> Laser_away: I will try to put them into the Wiki
[12:37] <Burgwork> theCore, mailing list is a probably a better place for discussion
[12:39] <Burgwork> mdke, did you get my query?
[02:04] <Lathiat> mdke: pon g?
[02:24] <LaserJock> theCore: still around?
[02:24] <theCore> LaserJock: yep
[02:25] <LaserJock> theCore: what did you have in mind?
[02:25] <theCore> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
[02:27] <LaserJock> hmm, yeah it would be good to start with the basica packaging stuff
[02:27] <LaserJock> and then move into different common packaging scenarios
[02:28] <LaserJock> bug fixing (i.e. how to do a debdiff)
[02:28] <theCore> LaserJock: yeah, back again to the scenarios :)
[02:28] <LaserJock> well, we might not call them that ;-)
[02:28] <crimsun>  /join irc, bug bddebian.  Next scenario?
[02:28] <LaserJock> exactly
[02:29] <LaserJock> new upstream versions (i.e. making sure to -sa when building the source package)
[02:29] <LaserJock> sync/merges (better this time)
[02:30] <LaserJock> I really want to hit patching and debdiffing this time as those are things that a lot of MOTU wannabes do
[02:30] <LaserJock> maybe we can send a call for items wannabes want to see covered to -motu ML
[02:30] <theCore> when the freeze end, tomorrow?
[02:31] <crimsun> wider coverage would be to ubuntu-users-announce, perhaps
[02:31] <theCore> LaserJock: also, we need to cover another aspect of packaging, personal packaging
[02:31] <LaserJock> yes
[02:32] <LaserJock> how to rebuild a package to get debugging symbols is a common one
[02:32] <LaserJock> the first time I touched a source package was to add readline support to gnuplot
[02:32] <LaserJock> just for personal use
[02:32] <theCore> LaserJock: I'm sure there's many admin that would love having an alternative to the common /usr/local
[02:32] <LaserJock> and don't tell anybody I did that, RMS might have my hide ;-)
[02:33] <crimsun> we really, really, really need to consider discouraging the {ab,}use of checkinstall
[02:33] <crimsun> people inevitably end up passing said packages around
[02:33] <LaserJock> crimsun: right, that's  why I'd like to make an easy guide to doing it right
[02:34] <LaserJock> the first time I did the readline tweak on gnuplot I used checkinstall
[02:34] <LaserJock> but I didn't like it too much
[02:34] <crimsun> unfortunately checkinstall in dapper is ... crippled (at least last I checked)
[02:35] <LaserJock> and then I found a little recipe that had what to change in debian/rules and then dpkg-buildpackage
[02:35] <LaserJock> it was really easy
[02:37] <LaserJock> theCore (and crimsun too if you want): ok, so rework that outline on Ubuntu Packaging Guide to what you would like to see for Edgy
[02:46] <LaserJock> bbl
[03:08] <ajmitch> he jsgotangco 
[03:08] <ajmitch> what's up?
[03:08] <jsgotangco> im having some .net crap at work
[03:08] <ajmitch> excellent
[03:09] <jsgotangco> im doing this in vb.net for an IVR project
[03:09] <ajmitch> ugh
[03:09] <ajmitch> at least I was doing C#
[03:09] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:09] <jsgotangco> the mind boggles
[03:12] <crimsun> it would have boggled more at non-dot-net vb
[03:15] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you nintendo linky no worky
[03:16] <jsgotangco> i will edit it
[03:22] <jsgotangco> ive linked it elsewhere now (bbc article)
[03:27] <Burgundavia> hmm, that sucks
[03:27] <Burgundavia> muine no longer responds to multimedia keys
[03:52] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, ping
[03:52] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: poing
[03:52] <Madpilot> back on LiveCD - main install still FUBAR'd
[03:53] <Burgundavia> does X start?
[03:53] <Madpilot> yes, but GDM wouldn't let me log in
[03:53] <Madpilot> I was able to log in to console, though
[03:53] <Burgundavia> what does it say?
[03:54] <Madpilot> it looks like my network connection is fubar'd
[03:54] <Burgundavia> hmm, in what way?
[03:54] <Madpilot> all of the network commands I tried (apt-get update, ping & wget) returned DNS resolving errors
[03:54] <Burgundavia> ah
[03:54] <Burgundavia> can you mount your / in the live cd?
[03:54] <Madpilot> the liveCD is able to get on the net as usual though, so it's not my actual connection...
[03:55] <Madpilot> yes
[03:56] <Madpilot> got both my regular partitions mounted - what am I looking for?
[03:57] <Burgundavia> check your /etc/resolv.conf
[03:57] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: lets move to #ubuntu-ca
[05:29] <Bilange> is that the right channel for questions about the main ubuntu.com (updated) website?
[05:29] <robotgeek> Bilange: sure
[05:29] <Burgundavia> Bilange: what is the issue?
[05:30] <Bilange> if no one else reported it, theres a visual flaw in the new design... there is no shadow below the "tabs" div (called sisternav in the html source)
[05:30] <Bilange> that is, on the latest FF ubuntu repos provides
[05:30] <Burgundavia> I don't know if that is a visual flaw, but I see it
[05:31] <Bilange> well, im not sure how I could say that, but thats just asthetics (sp?)
[05:32] <Bilange> actually, there is no code at all to provide a shadow as far as I looked for it, so maybe that was just forgotten
[05:32] <robotgeek> 21 errors in validation
[05:33] <robotgeek> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ubuntu.com 
[05:34] <Bilange> this gets worse when trying to load the main page under Ie6/Win98: javascript error popup :S
[05:34] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I don't understand the root issue
[05:34] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: what do you mean?
[05:35] <LaserJock> don't the docs keep sudo?
[05:35] <Bilange> javascript error: "line 30 char 5, document.getElementById(...) has a Null value or isnt an object"
[05:35] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, but these are doc provided by vmware
[05:36] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: yeah, but you say we put a lot of effort in being consistent
[05:36] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, because about once a month I have to cleanup a doc on the wiki that says "first enable your root account"
[05:37] <LaserJock> right, I thought you were saying that you wanted to keep "enable your root account"
[05:37] <LaserJock> I must have misread
[05:38] <Burgundavia> nope
[05:57] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: that's like the selinux developers complaining about docs that start off with 'first disable selinux'
[05:57] <ajmitch> when it's the buggy code at fault, not selinux :)
[05:58] <Burgundavia> ouch
[05:58] <ajmitch> there are some things selinux policy disables on FC5 that apps just shouldn't do
[05:59] <jsgotangco> perhaps they just understand the deeper intricacies of selinux and brush it off as a feature blocker :/
[05:59] <jsgotangco> s/just/just don't
[05:59] <ajmitch> understand?
[05:59] <ajmitch> right :)
[05:59] <ajmitch> it's comparable to docs telling people to make a system dir world-writable
[05:59] <jsgotangco> ive seen a few php web apps that say explicity to turn it off
[05:59] <ajmitch> yeah
[06:00] <ajmitch> selinux got a really bad reputation due to FC2's strict policy
[06:01] <Burgundavia> something Novell has capitalized on quite well
[06:01] <ajmitch> sure
[06:01] <ajmitch> but apparmor just doesn't cover things in nearly the same way
[06:01] <Burgundavia> I think if Ubuntu jumps for SELinux and XGL, it will be interesting
[06:01] <Burgundavia> each Novell and RH has a technology that is useless
[06:01] <ajmitch> there are people who want apparmour in edgy
[06:02] <ajmitch> robotgeek: a little too slow?
[06:02] <robotgeek> ajmitch: yeah, ati drivers , suck
[06:03] <jsgotangco> id probably turn of wobbly windows
[06:03] <robotgeek> never going to buy another machine with a ati in it
[06:04] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: yes, one thing selinux lacks much of is documentation :)
[06:06] <robotgeek> we all hate bad documentation, lol
[06:08] <ajmitch> yeah, outdated docs are often worse than none at all
[06:17] <robotgeek> Burgundavia: you use epiphany, right?
[06:17] <Burgundavia> robotgeek: nothing but
[06:17] <robotgeek> opening a new tab does not focus cursor in address bar
[06:18] <Burgundavia> yep, long known bug
[06:18] <Burgundavia> difficult to fix, because of the way mozilla is built
[06:18] <robotgeek> heh, why do i run into irritating bugs in whatever "integrated" browser i use </rant>
[06:18] <Burgundavia> ff unconditionally focuses the address bar, as where as the epip people like to focus the fire text input bar if it is available
[06:19] <Burgundavia> this is sometimes buggy, due to mozilla code, not epip
[06:19] <robotgeek> blank tabs even. you know a nice extension/hack to fix this?
[06:20] <Burgundavia> nope
[06:20] <robotgeek> with konqueror, i ran into bugs which were "exotic"
[06:20] <Burgundavia> file a bug
[06:22] <robotgeek> did that for Konq, no one else was able to confirm
[06:32] <ajmitch> how does one properly revert a wiki page change?
[06:33] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: go to get info, click the revert link on the edit
[06:33] <ajmitch> apart from stripping out the offending text :)
[06:33] <robotgeek> ajmitch: click on more info, and select revvision and go
[06:33] <ajmitch> right, I'm not seeing the revert
[06:33] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: page and edit?
[06:33] <ajmitch> DownloadEdubuntu
[06:34] <ajmitch> it's only someone adding 'doh' to it
[06:34] <ajmitch> nothing major, just stupid :)
[06:34] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: do you see teh "Get Info: link?
[06:34] <ajmitch> yes, I'm on that page
[06:35] <Burgundavia> click the on revert link one edit back
[06:35] <ajmitch> hm
[06:35] <ajmitch> looks like I'm logged out
[06:35] <ajmitch> strange
[06:35] <ajmitch> silly small fonts :)
[06:35] <ajmitch> ok, revert happens to show up when I'm using the other browser, which is logged in :)
[08:21] <Madpilot> hi all
[08:21] <jsgotangco> hi
[08:22] <Madpilot> blasted dist-upgrade... the k7 kernel currently in Dapper repos doesn't like either of my onboard net connections - I've got to use a LiveCD to get on the net...
[08:24] <jsgotangco> ewww
[08:24] <Madpilot> yeah
[08:24] <Madpilot> I don't think you can use LiveCDs as CD-repos, can you?
[08:25] <Madpilot> I need a 386 kernel for a while
[08:26] <robitaille> you can chroot into your dapper partition from your liveCD session then install that 386 kernel
[08:27] <robitaille> but not really user friendly...
[08:28] <Madpilot> I was planning on grabbing the Install ISO tomorrow at my parents, burning that, and mounting it as a cd repo in Synaptic
[08:33] <robitaille> you could also download the .deb manually for linux-image-...-386 and  linux-restricted...-386 from archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool in the live session, burn them to a CD, or write them to your disk, and install manually using dpkg
[08:33] <Madpilot> ...
[08:33] <Madpilot> why didn't I think of that?
[08:35] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
[08:35] <Burgundavia> hey
[08:45] <jsgotangco> why?
[08:45] <jsgotangco> "is it here" messages?
[08:45] <Madpilot> yes
[08:45] <Madpilot> 898 people in #ubuntu right now
[08:46] <jsgotangco> yay
[08:53] <highvoltage> are we placing bets again on how high it will go? :P
[09:29] <Seveas> Madpilot, was 930-940 last night
[09:30] <Madpilot> Seveas: fun...
[09:30] <mdke> morning all
[09:30] <Burgundavia> hey mdke
[09:31] <bhuvan> hello mdke
[09:31] <mdke> hey Madpilot, if I prepare a list of the books and languages we're going to put on lulu, will you be able to take charge of the covers?
[09:31] <mdke> bhuvan: hiya :
[09:31] <Burgundavia> bhuvan: long time, so see
[09:31] <mdke> :)
[09:31] <bhuvan> Burgundavia, i use to be online and stay listening :)
[09:32] <Madpilot> mdke: sure, I've got some time this weekend, hopefully.
[09:32] <mdke> Madpilot: perfect, I'll do that soon then and we can get that sorted too :)
[09:32] <bhuvan> mdke: new-help.u.c is a new server or it's a virtual host in h.u.c ?
[09:33] <mdke> bhuvan: it's on one of the Ubuntu servers
[09:33] <mdke> same one as wiki.u.c. in fact
[09:34] <bhuvan> ok
[09:35] <bhuvan> i assume, we are going to migrate frozen pages from w.u.c to n-help.u.c and set edittable only by wikiteam members
[09:36] <mdke> no, all documentation from wiki.u is going to be moved to that server at help.ubuntu.com/community
[09:36] <mdke> and it will be editable as before
[09:36] <bhuvan> ok
[09:36] <lastnode> mdke, i just started translating some stuff in rosetta. how does that work for docs?
[09:37] <mdke> lastnode: you can find docs at ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, and xubuntu-docs.
[09:37] <bhuvan> mdke, so what's the purpose of n-help.u.c ?
[09:37] <lastnode> mdke, mailing lists?
[09:37] <mdke> bhuvan: it will become help.u
[09:38] <mdke> lastnode: those are packages in rosetta
[09:38] <lastnode> mdke, oh, right.
[09:38] <bhuvan> mdke, ok
[09:38] <lastnode> also, is there a standard font to be used?
[09:38] <lastnode> im using the (yet uncertified) unicode font for my language
[09:39] <mdke> lastnode: while translating? no...
[09:39] <lastnode> mdke, im using Sinhala Unicode
[09:39] <mdke> ok.
[09:39] <bhuvan> mdke, can we schedule a team meeting to discuss documents for edgy and other stuff you/others may have ? 
[09:39] <mdke> good idea
[09:40] <mdke> lastnode: listen, I have to go to work, if you have some more questions, mail ubuntu-translators and I will get back to you
[09:40] <lastnode> mdke, ok, thanks :)
[09:40] <mdke> bye
[09:41] <lastnode> bye
[09:41] <bhuvan> so, i'll update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda with what i have ...
[09:41] <Madpilot> it's been months since we had a docteam meeting
[09:42] <bhuvan> any input on date & time ?
[09:42] <bhuvan> Madpilot, yes
[09:42] <Burgundavia> meetings, we don't have those
[09:42] <jsgotangco> bah! who needs them!
[09:42] <jsgotangco> :)
[09:43] <bhuvan> day jun 16 (fri) - will it work ?
[09:50] <Madpilot> nice, the frontpage of ubuntu.com has finally been updated
[09:51] <Burgundavia> yep
[09:54] <jsgotangco> yeah with a nice asian-guy for support (jbailey)
[09:54] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:55] <rob> the updated web site rocks
[09:55] <Burgundavia> that it does
[09:55] <rob> that menu thing makes things nice and easy to find
[10:00] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: is that jbaily? i always thought he was english :)
[10:00] <jsgotangco> hehe
[10:01] <jsgotangco> i also thought he had long hair too
[03:02] <jjesse> apparently there are/were a lot of typos in the release notes for kubuntu, didn't realize that so i apologize
[03:03] <jjesse> need to spell check my work better
[03:03] <jjesse> also some don't like how it is worded :( wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDapperKnownProblems 
[03:04] <mdke> yes, we've been asked to review the style
[03:04] <jjesse> i wish the style was reviewed before release, the notes haven't changed "style" since at least flight3 or so
[03:04] <jsgotangco> jjesse: we should invite you to the elite blatant-and-awkward LP team
[03:05] <jjesse> sorry a little frustrated this morning 
[03:05] <jjesse> just that they been "finished" for what seems a couple of months and no one complained about it
[03:05] <jsgotangco> mmm??
[03:06] <jjesse> The release notes (help:/kubuntu/krelease-notes/index.html) are full of typos ("Recomendations", "regulary", "preditctably", "Ubuquity", "seperate", etc.), read unprofessionally ("Wahoo a sweet new installer is available ...!!!!", "FREE of charge!!!!", etc.), and appear to be confused in other ways (a paragraph for "a sweet new installer" that talks about features in Breezy, and then a separate paragraph for Ubiquity which is the actual new installer). C
[03:06] <jsgotangco> jjesse: it can't be helped, you were probably busy with work
[03:06] <jsgotangco> real life takes preference over volunteer work
[03:07] <jjesse> jsgotangco: no one told me
[03:07] <jsgotangco> jjesse: that's a shame, even in kubuntu?
[03:08] <jsgotangco> we actually wrote the edubuntu release annoucement in a 1 1/2 days
[03:08] <jjesse> correct
[03:09] <jsgotangco> you could probably ask Riddell for access to the kubuntu website to fix it up
[03:09] <jsgotangco> (that's what we did for edubuntu using drupal)
[03:09] <jjesse> well i'll rewrite them tonight and send them to riddell and the list to get included in dapper-updates, just frustrated that they were out there for so long and no one complained
[03:10] <jsgotangco> yeah i can relate to that
[03:35] <mdke> jjesse: don't worry about it dude, it's no problem fixing them up
[03:36] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:40] <jjesse> mdke: i know sorry just a little frustrated this morning for some reason
[03:40] <mdke> no worries
[03:41] <highvoltage> how's the wiki move going?
[03:42] <jsgotangco> its happening?
[03:47] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: i don't know. i thought it was going to happen today.
[03:52] <jjesse> grin on the official ubuntu release annoucnement under the book section they spelled my name wrong
[03:52] <jjesse> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/606released
[03:52] <jjesse> look for jonathan jessie  :)
[03:52] <jsgotangco> lol oh well
[04:06] <mgalvin> jjesse: what is the correct spelling?
[04:06] <jjesse> no 'i'    jesse
[04:07] <mgalvin> oh right, duh, hang on i'll fix it
[04:08] <jjesse> grin thanks mgalvin
[04:08] <mgalvin> jjesse: np, it should be fixed now
[04:08] <jjesse> i find that funny, at least my last name wasn't first which is another common mistake
[04:09] <mgalvin> people always say my last name glavin instead galvin b/c there is a baseball player tom glavin and people just have that name in their heads :-/
[07:05] <LaserJock> oh sweet, anybody seen Mark's blog
[07:06] <mgalvin> back to the installing software bit quickly, could we not use the same technique used in many books... standardize on using one command like apt or aptitude so that we can still copy paste AND also provide the link as we are doing now so that users who don't know how to use or don't want to use our standard can learn how to use something else
[07:07] <LaserJock> I suppose but we will have lots of issues with choosing apt-get vs. aptitude
[07:07] <LaserJock> or some other CLI package manager that comes around
[07:08] <mgalvin> well, we (jeff jerome and i) have been sticking with apt if that carries any weight at all
[07:09] <jjesse> and on the kubuntu side we standarized on adept
[07:09] <mgalvin> time for beer indeed
[07:09] <mgalvin> well, after work :)
[07:09] <LaserJock> yeah, but there are people (we have one on the wiki) who will refuse to accept apt-get
[07:09] <LaserJock> and really there are advantages to aptitude
[07:10] <mgalvin> hmm, providing both would be silly i guess?
[07:10] <mgalvin> there are
[07:10] <LaserJock> yes, because the lines would be the same
[07:10] <LaserJock> it is so irritating that people can't just substitute in their desired one
[07:10] <LaserJock> apt-get install foo bar
[07:10] <LaserJock> or aptitude install foo bar
[07:11] <mgalvin> what drawbacks might aptitude have opposed to apt-get
[07:11] <mgalvin> ug, thats a management type question, eww, i feel dirty
[07:11] <LaserJock> I don't really know of any except it does install Recommended packages by default
[07:11] <LaserJock> but if you do aptitude -r install foo bar
[07:12] <LaserJock> it is essentiall the same
[07:12] <mgalvin> which isn't always correct
[07:12] <mgalvin> b/c of the diff btwn us and debian
[07:12] <mgalvin> lemme see if i can find an example, i know i have run into them
[07:12] <LaserJock> well, if maintainers used Recommends properly it probably wouldn't be much of a problem, but ...
[07:13] <mgalvin> true, yea a big but
[07:13] <LaserJock> anyway, aptitude is just a souped up apt-get
[07:13] <LaserJock> a lot of devs like it
[07:14] <LaserJock> anyway, it really is quite similar to the emacs vs. vim battle
[07:14] <LaserJock> people get all hot about it but it really comes down to whatever you prefer and feel most comfortable with
[07:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: what's that?
[07:14] <LaserJock> that's why I prefer that we not give a line
[07:15] <LaserJock> highvoltage: apt-get vs. aptitude in docs
[07:15] <highvoltage> aaah
[07:15] <LaserJock> mgalvin: I started out with apt-get lines in the Packaging Guide and that was the first thing people complained about
[07:15] <mgalvin> i suggested a standardization route but anyway we go has pros and cons
[07:15] <LaserJock> I agree
[07:15] <mgalvin> ah
[07:16] <LaserJock> I personally like being able to cut-n-paste the lines from a guide
[07:16] <mgalvin> can't please everyone
[07:16] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:17] <LaserJock> so basically we make *everyone* a little mad so that we don't make significant amounts of people *really* mad ;-)
[07:17] <mgalvin> so we shoot ourselves in both feet, but we can still walk :)
[07:18] <LaserJock> exactly ;-)
[07:18] <kermitX_> apt-get in docs makes sense as it's the most accessible? vs aptitude/synaptic/adept
[07:18] <highvoltage> what is used, generally in doc, apt-get?
[07:18] <mgalvin> highvoltage: until recently yes
[07:18] <LaserJock> if Ubuntu did standarize around a package management it would be different
[07:19] <jjesse> it depedns on ubuntu or kubuntu
[07:19] <jjesse> for kubuntu the docs should refer to adept
[07:19] <mgalvin> maybe we should present this issue to the devs or the TB/CC?
[07:19] <mgalvin> they would be able to pick the standard
[07:19] <LaserJock> I don't think they will want to
[07:19] <LaserJock> because they themselves probably use different ones
[07:20] <mgalvin> don't know if it is even worth bothering them with at this point
[07:20] <highvoltage> i would think it's TB's responsibility to provide feedback
[07:20] <LaserJock> it's the TB's responsibilty to make decisions
[07:20] <highvoltage> didn't mdz post to the doc and devel mailing list a while back saying something along the lines of docteam should work closer to the tech team to make sure that all documentation is technically sounds?
[07:20] <LaserJock> if they don't feel that a decision needs to be made they won't touch it
[07:20] <highvoltage> s/sounds/sound
[07:20] <mgalvin> yea, they will likely want to not offend as well, but might have additional thoughts
[07:20] <highvoltage> ah, i see.
[07:21] <highvoltage> how boring of them :)
[07:21] <LaserJock> I think we could at least ask the TB if they think it is something that they would like to discuss
[07:21] <LaserJock> highvoltage is right that we need to work closely with the devs
[07:21] <mgalvin> can't hurt to ask
[07:21] <LaserJock> no
[07:22] <highvoltage> even if they could just give a bit of feedback, it would be nice.
[07:22] <Burgwork> highvoltage, yes, he did
[07:22] <mgalvin> indeed
[07:22] <Burgwork> it is mostly the wiki dcos
[07:22] <LaserJock> currently though, I think it is sort of nice the way we do it
[07:23] <highvoltage> apoligies for the confusion and ignorance on my part, but did the wiki move happen today? and was it scheduled for today?
[07:23] <mgalvin> yea, i only think about it because i work with, um, well, people i know prefer copy/paste
[07:24] <mgalvin> anyway, anyone object to at least presenting the issue to the TB
[07:25] <LaserJock> my only point would be that we should discuss it within the team and then have a cohesive spec or something to bring to the TB
[07:25] <Burgwork> mgalvin, what, how we talk about installation? you want to take that to the TB?
[07:26] <LaserJock> Burgwork: he would like to ask the TB if we should standarize around a package manager, I think
[07:26] <mgalvin> mostly yes
[07:27] <mgalvin> Burgwork: i like how in books a standard method it followed and the other option methods are discussed elsewhere...
[07:27] <Burgwork> hmm
[07:27] <Burgwork> the problem is, what standard method? apt-get or synaptic?
[07:27] <mgalvin> and being able to copy paste commands is useful
[07:27] <Burgwork> for those who have commandline experience, yes
[07:28] <mgalvin> i was thinking a standard for the cli
[07:28] <mgalvin> not sure about the gui aspect
[07:28] <mgalvin> there are so many now, and g-a-i added another
[07:28] <Burgwork> that basically leads us down the path of recommending the CLI
[07:28] <highvoltage> i would think that it's synaptic, since ubuntu should allow users to do everything the gui way. but command line is important, you don't always have the luxury of a gui. either for servers, or for troubleshooting.
[07:28] <Burgwork> I like the current method
[07:28] <highvoltage> sorry if i'm just making noise here :)
[07:28] <Burgwork> no, you are not
[07:28] <Burgwork> hence why we shouldn't mention any one method
[07:29] <mgalvin> i am largely referring to processes that require the cli
[07:29] <Burgwork> which are those?
[07:29] <Burgwork> installing apache? I can do that from synaptic
[07:29] <LaserJock> if X breaks
[07:29] <Burgwork> I am saying it is bettter to have one way of talking about it, a have that consistent
[07:30] <LaserJock> or you need to ssh into the box
[07:30] <Burgwork> in that case, they should know
[07:30] <Burgwork> there are too many cases for us to special case anything
[07:30] <LaserJock> well, sure
[07:30] <mgalvin> but  you can't config apache in a gui... many wiki does do... example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostfixBasicSetupHowto
[07:31] <mgalvin> you can't do that in a gui
[07:31] <Burgwork> mgalvin, we should also be saying "Edit X file", not "sudo nano X.file"
[07:31] <LaserJock> I think the problem is having 2 different audiences
[07:32] <LaserJock> CLI and GUI
[07:32] <Burgwork> just as we don't prejudice for any installation method, we don't prejudice against any text editor
[07:32] <LaserJock> some prefer one over the other
[07:32] <Burgwork> the former can figure it and the latter will thank us for not driving them to tehj CLI
[07:32] <LaserJock> I would say though that people who are used to CLI will be annoyed with it
[07:33] <LaserJock> "why didn't they just put the line so I can cut-n-paste"
[07:33] <Burgwork> I would rather annoy the CLI people than the GUI people
[07:33] <Burgwork> if I had to annoy somebody
[07:33] <LaserJock> I don't think you have to annoy the GUI people
[07:33] <Burgwork> apt-get install blah annoys the GUI people
[07:33] <LaserJock> only if that is the only option
[07:34] <Burgwork> what else do you want to do? mention every way?
[07:34] <mgalvin> haha, yea, i am trying to get us to think of a middle ground
[07:34] <Burgwork> either apt-get install blah or just install blah through synaptic
[07:34] <Burgwork> uhh, no
[07:34] <LaserJock> I can see using the current method and then adding an apt-get line in a <screen> beneath it
[07:34] <LaserJock> but maybe that would be confusing
[07:34] <Burgwork> yes, it would
[07:35] <mgalvin> how do others do it? take for example back in the ubuntuguide.org days... all apt-get install... and everyone loved it
[07:36] <Burgwork> uh,, no
[07:36] <Burgwork> CLI people loved it
[07:36] <Burgwork> grandma did not
[07:36] <mgalvin> ok, true
[07:36] <mgalvin> i am thinking in terms of cli people...
[07:36] <highvoltage> does it actually say sudo nano X.file somewhere? that's nasty!
[07:36] <Burgwork> CLI people are louder int he community
[07:36] <Burgwork> yo' mamma don't do no IRC
[07:37] <mgalvin> cli people loved it so why let a few peoples complaints ruin a proven liked (but seemingly the majority) method
[07:37] <highvoltage> what we do in edubuntu is, say press alt+f2 in gnome, then type gksudo "gedit file.txt"
[07:37] <Burgwork> highvoltage, we are trying to get away from that as well
[07:37] <highvoltage> understandably so, it is a bit complicated :/
[07:37] <Burgwork> yep
[07:38] <highvoltage> if there were a menu entry 'root gedit' (or whatever you want to call it), it would be easier, but then again, also more dangerous
[07:38] <Burgwork> if you look at most professionally written and GOOD  help, they don't prejiduce either
[07:38] <mgalvin> Burgwork: do you have any particular examples in mind?
[07:39] <Burgwork> mgalvin, not currently. All the places I have seen are books written for average users
[07:40] <Burgwork> if you write for a average users, the advanced ones will come along
[07:40] <mgalvin> sure, my main argument was that many book pick a method (that i have seen) and use it... look at madduck's debian book, or even mako deb bible (doesn't it use apt-get) iirc
[07:41] <mgalvin> i know martins does
[07:41] <Burgwork> those are written for debian
[07:41] <mgalvin> and we are not to far from that
[07:41] <LaserJock> I agree that we can't just put CLI lines
[07:41] <Burgwork> we have picked a method, it is called "tell people what package to install""
[07:42] <LaserJock> I think the majority of users do not use CLI all the time
[07:42] <highvoltage> i have a suggestion
[07:42] <LaserJock> and to some extent you need to cater to the least common denominator
[07:42] <Burgwork> highvoltage, we don't do suggestions here ;)
[07:43] <highvoltage> you have a two page document, explaining how to do it with synaptic, aptitude, apt-get, kynaptic, adept, etc.
[07:43] <Burgwork> yep, that already exists
[07:43] <Burgwork> and then you link it?
[07:43] <mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingSoftware
[07:43] <highvoltage> then you tell the users to install package X, how they want to do it is up to them, they can refer to that doc if they are unsire
[07:43] <Burgwork> we just need to be more agressive about linking that
[07:43] <highvoltage> (unsure)
[07:43] <LaserJock> highvoltage: that is what we are doing now
[07:43] <highvoltage> then you never have to tell a user to apt-get, or to synaptic
[07:44] <highvoltage> ok, sorry then.
[07:44] <LaserJock> np
[07:44] <mgalvin> my main concern is that copy paste commands are easier
[07:44] <Burgwork> np
[07:44] <LaserJock> mgalvin: but only to people that would use them
[07:44] <Burgwork> mgalvin, easier for a certain class of user, not for everybody
[07:44] <Burgwork> be careful with blanket statements
[07:44] <mgalvin> i certainly agree with that
[07:44] <mgalvin> true
[07:44] <LaserJock> I really really think we could use an Ubuntu user survey for this kind of thing
[07:45] <mgalvin> ok, i concede for now, /me shoots himself in both feet and hobbles away :)
[07:45] <LaserJock> because we really have no idea what our users use
[07:45] <highvoltage> well, you can't copy and paste in the gui tools, and apt-get install isnt' exactly much to type out
[07:45] <Burgwork> LaserJock, that would just confirm that current active Ubuntu users love apt-get, because mom and pop wouldn't respond
[07:45] <LaserJock> Burgwork: well, we need a real survey
[07:45] <Burgwork> yep
[07:45] <mgalvin> +1
[07:46] <Burgwork> surveys are hard and expensive to do correctly
[07:46] <LaserJock> I don't know if Canoncial has done anything
[07:46] <Burgwork> plus potentially annoying to users
[07:46] <LaserJock> I haven't seen it
[07:46] <Burgwork> nor have I
[07:46] <mgalvin> fridge, apt-get | aptitude | synatpic | g-a-i | adept | don't know
[07:46] <LaserJock> but we make decisions all the time with "most users" but in reality we have no idea
[07:47] <LaserJock> no fridge won't work
[07:47] <LaserJock> again, that would tend to oversample the devs/nerds ;-)
[07:47] <Burgwork> mgalvin, self selecting surveys at the fridge will merely reinforce that the current active set love apt-get
[07:48] <mgalvin> true
[07:48] <LaserJock> even doing a forum poll would slant the outcome
[07:48] <Burgwork> that would be worse
[07:48] <LaserJock> you have to make sure you are trully sampling the population of Ubuntu users
[07:48] <mgalvin> shipit could send millions of postage paid postcards
[07:48] <mgalvin> haha, kidding
[07:49] <LaserJock> it is expensive
[07:49] <Burgwork> I think we just need to be smart about it
[07:50] <LaserJock> my uni did a survey to see if we wanted different ID cards, they spent close to $1 millon for the whole process
[07:50] <mgalvin> gesh
[07:51] <LaserJock> that included more than just the survey
[07:51] <LaserJock> but it was quite a bit of it
[07:51] <mgalvin> possibly something simple on the main website somewhere, much wider exposure
[07:51] <Burgwork> that would do
[07:51] <LaserJock> perhaps
[07:51] <LaserJock> I think it would have to be a combination
[07:52] <LaserJock> website, shipit, maybe even something in the install
[07:52] <mgalvin> sure, it couldn't hurt to put it in a few places
[07:52] <jjesse> not in the install
[07:52] <mgalvin> hey...
[07:52] <mgalvin> oh never mind
[07:53] <LaserJock> I think it would have to go in the install in one form or another
[07:53] <mgalvin> well, maybe this is dumb, would popularity-contest maybe even be of some use
[07:53] <LaserJock> in a way
[07:53] <LaserJock> not so much in its current form I don't think
[07:53] <mgalvin> right, i figured
[07:53] <LaserJock> you have to know about it to turn it on
[07:53] <LaserJock> wich automatically throws out a lot of users
[07:53] <apokryphos> which is the main URL now for users to use/access the documentation?
[07:53] <LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com
[07:53] <apokryphos> help.u.c still has instructions for kubuntu breezy
[07:54] <LaserJock> it will be switched, I believe
[07:54] <mgalvin> brb
[07:54] <LaserJock> apokryphos: for now I think it is help.u.c/6.06 or something
[07:54] <apokryphos> same for ubuntu
[07:54] <apokryphos> ok
[07:55] <apokryphos> nice, looks very good; I'll link to that for now =)
[07:55] <mdke_> evening
[07:55] <LaserJock> it should be switched very soon I would guess
[07:55] <LaserJock> mdke_ would know ;-)
[07:55] <apokryphos> evenin' =)
[07:55] <mdke_> whoosh that is long scrollback
[07:56] <LaserJock> mdke_: apt-get vs aptitude again :-)
[07:56] <Burgwork> mdke_, bugger at the Naaman thing
[07:56] <mdke_> eugh ffs
[07:56] <mdke_> Burgwork: yeah, it'll be alright though.
[07:56] <apokryphos> as I always say, they each have their uses ;-)
[07:56] <robotgeek> true that apokryphos 
[07:57] <apokryphos> hi robotgeek :)
[07:57] <mdke_> that's not the point though, the point is that there are a million package managers, we should be neutral
[07:57] <robotgeek> smart or whatever in edgy too
[07:57] <apokryphos> but it's more practical to recommend/explain the 'official' ones
[07:57] <apokryphos> yeah, smart's great 8)
[07:57] <LaserJock> there are no 'official' ones
[07:58] <apokryphos> LaserJock: sure there are; smart in breezy and dapper is unofficial
[07:58] <apokryphos> it's not shipped in main
[07:58] <mdke> apokryphos: yes, we do that.
[07:58] <LaserJock> hmm, I guess being in Main would make it a bit more official
[07:58] <mdke> but that doesn't mean that we should adopt one when documenting a procedure
[07:58] <LaserJock> I'm a MOTU so I tend to see Universe as offical too ;-)
[07:59] <apokryphos> sure, but it's technically not "Ubuntu official"
[07:59] <LaserJock> I wouldn't say that
[07:59] <LaserJock> it isn't supported by Canonical
[07:59] <jjesse> can i ask a silly question:  is it really worth it?
[08:00] <mdke> that's the problem with using the word official
[08:00] <LaserJock> yep
[08:00] <jjesse> is this whole discussion worth having?
[08:00] <LaserJock> jjesse: is what worth it?
[08:00] <apokryphos> LaserJock: /msg ubotu components :)
[08:00] <mdke> apokryphos: his point is that you are adopting a completely subjective meaning of the word "official"
[08:00] <mdke> you're both right
[08:01] <LaserJock> apokryphos: so
[08:01] <mgalvin> jjesse: apt vs. apituted?
[08:01] <LaserJock> it doesn't say that Universe is unoffical
[08:01] <apokryphos> we're individually right in two different senses, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's completely subjective
[08:01] <LaserJock> just that Canonical won't support it
[08:01] <apokryphos> LaserJock: it says that it comes with no gurantees, whereas main comes with "fully supported"
[08:01] <LaserJock> so
[08:01] <mdke> apokryphos: that's one meaning of the word "official"
[08:01] <LaserJock> Canonical != Ubuntu
[08:01] <mdke> there are loads of others
[08:02] <LaserJock> anyway, it is somewhat just semantics
[08:02] <apokryphos> LaserJock: Canonical is a sponsor of Ubuntu
[08:02] <mdke> meh
[08:02] <LaserJock> again, so what?
[08:02] <mdke> ok, you guys take this to -offtopic
[08:02] <apokryphos> it in itself doesn't give entire guarantee for either I'd say
[08:02] <mdke> let's use this channel for docs
[08:02] <LaserJock> sorry mdke 
[08:02] <apokryphos> sorry, yes :)
[08:03] <apokryphos> mdke: is there going to be a switch on h.u.c to have dapper there, or should I link to /6.06?
[08:03] <mdke> apokryphos: yes, there is
[08:03] <apokryphos> hm ok; I'll link to there for the timebeing
[08:03] <mdke> apokryphos: both will work
[08:04] <apokryphos> thanks
[08:04] <mdke> links to the breezy docs will break though
[08:05] <robotgeek> ouch
[08:06] <mdke> not a lot we can do about that
[08:06] <apokryphos> mdke: were they always at plain h.u.c, is that why?
[08:07] <mdke> apokryphos: sorry?
[08:07] <apokryphos> mdke: as in, where will breezy docs be in the future?
[08:08] <mdke> help.ubuntu.com/5.10
[08:09] <apokryphos> ok, I see; thank you
[08:10] <Burgwork> apokryphos, in general, we support docs as long as the release itself is supported
[08:11] <mgalvin> maybe a little late but should i bother to put the release notes in svn (not that they are finally done)
[08:11] <mgalvin> s/not/now/
[08:11] <mdke> mgalvin: I guess not, website and wiki sound fine to me. We won't ship it in the docs at this stage, I wouldn't have thought
[08:12] <marble> Hello all, I think I found a bug in some breezy docs, but the dapper ones don't seem to be in a similar place (yet), so was wondering how to check if the same problem's there or not?
[08:13] <mgalvin> ok, the devs just got to add to it the past two days so it took a while, i am fine just leaving it where it is too
[08:13] <mdke> marble: System->Help->SystemDocumentation
[08:14] <Burgwork> mdke, here is an idea of edgy. Kill the help menu and move it into a better frontpage for yelp
[08:14] <LaserJock> mdke: kubuntu and edubuntu release notes are shipped, no?
[08:14] <mdke> LaserJock: I think so yeah
[08:15] <mdke> Burgwork: I would think moving the book and online documentation links would be essential, not sure about the other two
[08:16] <Burgwork> hmm
[08:16] <Burgwork> as long as it a clear there is s single place to read docs
[08:16] <marble> mdke: thanks, but that seems to be different docs to what's on http://ftp.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual (at least on the machine I have kubuntu on)
[08:18] <mdke> marble: yes, that's an installer guide which comes from the archive.
[08:18] <mdke> marble: check out installation-guide for dapper
[08:18] <marble> mdke: sorry to be slow, but where is that? I tried putting 'dapper' in place of breezy in that url
[08:19] <marble> mdke: basically part way through, it seems to switch to a debian install guide, rather than an ubuntu one (in the appendix for installing in an existing linux system with debootstrap)
[08:20] <mdke> try installing installation-guide
[08:20] <mdke> dunno
[08:20] <mdke> oh yeah, here http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/
[08:20] <jjesse> any way we can get that guide written by the doc team instead?
[08:21] <mdke> jjesse: no, I can't any any way
[08:21] <marble> mdke: ah, thanks. The problem seems to be fixed in that version too. Sorry for the noise.
[08:24] <mdke> urgh. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=diff
[08:25] <apokryphos> mdke: what's the problem? :)
[08:25] <Burgwork> mdke, yay! yet another one
[08:25] <dsas> heh, they're soliciting opinion for it in #ubuntu-offtopic
[08:25] <mdke> bleh
[08:26] <apokryphos> dsas: those mortals!
[08:26] <dsas> apokryphos: ?
[08:32] <dsas> oh, it makes sense now.
[08:32] <dsas> (sort of)
[08:44] <Burgwork> mdke, I will clean up that wiki page later tonight if needed
[08:48] <mdke> good man
[08:50] <Burgwork> I can be the bad cop to your good cop
[08:50] <mdke> always ;)
[08:50] <apokryphos> mdke: FrequentlyAskedQuestions? 
[08:50] <apokryphos> currently redirects to UserDocumentation
[08:50] <Burgwork> apokryphos, that was an old doc we killed a while back
[08:51] <apokryphos> can teach people what faq is in the meantime ;-)
[08:51] <apokryphos> Burgwork: right; think it's time to resurrect it? =)
[08:52] <apokryphos> well, I guess I'll put it on CommonlyAskedQuestions for now and if it fits the bill then perhaps it could go there
[08:52] <mgalvin> just a heads up, jsgotangco, Riddell and myself started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter in case anyone is interested
[08:53] <mdke> apokryphos: CommonQuestions works
[09:00] <mdke> mgalvin: cool
[09:00] <mdke> post to a few mailing lists about it?
[09:01] <mgalvin> was going to after we get one issue done first
[09:02] <mgalvin> just figured i would make sure you guys all know we are working on it in case anyone else want to help out too
[09:02] <mdke> -doc mailing list? not every reads here, some might help out
[09:03] <dsas> Is this the ubuntu-traffic style thing?
[09:03] <mgalvin> mdke: true, i'll send an email in a little while
[09:03] <dsas> s/the/a
[09:03] <apokryphos> hm, I'm not sure of the syntax I should be using for declaring a macro Anchor link. It says they should be of the form [[Anchor(anchorname)] ] , but what if I don't want the anchorname and the link text to be the same? 
[09:03] <mgalvin> dsas: sort of
[09:03] <mgalvin> hopefully this will last a while though :)
[09:04] <mdke> apokryphos: can't you just use a table of contents?
[09:04] <apokryphos> mdke: I'm not sure it'd be really ideal
[09:05] <mdke> what are you trying to do?
[09:05] <apokryphos> especially since the actual content is an faq list
[09:05] <apokryphos> mdke: have all the questions at the top (perhaps in sections), and for them to link out to the answers
[09:05] <dsas> apokryphos: Sounds exactly like a ToC to me.
[09:05] <apokryphos> a table of contents isn't really suitable for long questions, I think
[09:06] <apokryphos> ok, I'll do it, but I think the outcome may look odd
[09:06] <mdke> it will work if you do it right
[09:06] <mdke> use third level headings for the questions, and give plenty of horizontal space to your table
[09:06] <mdke> and don't have any first or second level headings
[09:26] <Burgwork> mdke, you had better get yourself hired by Canonical
[09:26] <LaserJock> yep
[09:31] <mdke> Burgwork: eh?
[09:31] <mdke> what's happened?
[09:32] <Burgwork> mdke, nothing, you just need to get hired
[09:33] <LaserJock> mdke: did you see Mark's blog entry about the release?
[09:33] <mdke> yep
[09:34] <mdke> was nice
[09:34] <LaserJock> yes, and well deserved, IMHO
[09:35] <LaserJock> you guys did great and I don't think it would have been possible without you mdke
[09:36] <Burgwork> mgalvin, can you make certain to forward to the marketing team as well?
[09:36] <Burgwork> mgalvin, I already did for this email
[09:36] <mgalvin> i will in the future, thanks
[09:36] <Burgwork> np
[09:40] <Burgwork> wow. #ubuntu is still over 1000 people
[09:40] <mgalvin> dang
[09:40] <Burgwork> I remember when #ubuntu used to be 200 people at the most
[09:43] <LaserJock> 1000?!?!
[09:43] <Burgwork> LaserJock, it hit that about 2am our time this morning
[09:44] <LaserJock> wow
[09:44] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you are NV, right?
[09:44] <LaserJock> but of course IRC isn't useful for non-devs ;-)
[09:44] <LaserJock> Burgwork: yep
[09:44] <Burgwork> ok
[09:52] <jenda> mgalvin: ping
[09:53] <mgalvin> jenda: pong
[09:53] <jenda> Hey - just read that mailing list post about the Weekly Newsletter.
[09:53] <jenda> Do you know about the Ubuntu Magazine?
[09:54] <mgalvin> it sound familiar (from a while ago) but i have not seen any issues of it
[09:54] <jenda> It never had any.
[09:55] <mgalvin> ah, that would be why :)
[09:55] <jenda> Yes, could be a factor. But there has been discussion to revive it on the Marketing Team forum.
[09:55] <jenda> And there is at least one individual who's seriously working on getting it under weigh
[09:56] <jenda> lemme get you a link
[09:56] <mgalvin> cool, sounds very interesting, whats the url of the forum?
[09:56] <mgalvin> took the words from my fingers :)
[09:56] <jenda> www.ubuntupeople.com
[09:57] <jenda> mgalvin: You'll see that there are things that are old, then 5 months of total silence, then a new life.
[09:57] <jenda> Whatever is older than April is not really valid anymore.
[09:57] <dsas> that's a whole new set of forums I didn't know of.
[09:57] <jenda> (Since it's basically a whole new team with only 4 members who stayed)
[09:58] <jenda> dsas: the team's december death would be a reason for that ;)
[09:59] <jenda> mgalvin: Whatever happens, the efforts behind both projects should cooperate, or better - merge. I think both projects have identical goals.
[09:59] <Burgwork> new teams tend to need to, pheonix-like, rise from the ashes at least once before they really get off the gournd
[10:01] <jenda> true
[10:01] <jenda> I've seen that happen several times (eg. easyubuntu)
[10:01] <Burgwork> the doc, -ca, -qc, nun and marketing teams have all done that
[10:01] <jenda> mgalvin: have a look at http://digitalbyond.net/~ubuntumag/?q=node/1
[10:01] <dsas> the ubuntu magazine site sounds like the fridge to me. Am I missing something?
[10:02] <jenda> hmm... I'm hearing a point there.
[10:02] <Burgwork> jenda, didn't I argue the same thing. Or was that fridge and spreadubuntu?
[10:02] <jenda> no, it was ubuntu.com and SU 
[10:02] <Burgwork> ah, that
[10:03] <Burgwork> :)
[10:03] <jenda> BTW, Jane let me know she's been following SU and supports the project 
[10:05] <Burgwork> jenda, I support a SU projectt as well. I just disagree on a few details
[10:05] <jenda> Burgwork: Well please then, let yourself be heard!
[10:06] <Burgwork> we did talk a while about focus
[10:06] <jenda> Er... I mean. No. You may not disagree.
[10:06] <Burgwork> lol
[10:07] <mgalvin> jenda: sorry had to step away for a min, looking now
[10:07] <jenda> Ok... you think you could write it down and post it at the forum - or give to me to post at the forum with your name on it? (It's not just me who is busy on that - Lloyd is doing much more work than I am.)
[10:09] <jenda> dsas: One difference I found is that the Mag plans to be printable.
[10:10] <jenda> -it would go by issues (not necessarily an advantage...)
[10:10] <mgalvin> jenda: the newsletter is meant to be weekly and something sabdfl, JaneW, etc... would like to read as a management type of review
[10:10] <dsas> jenda: You could always submit articles to be on the fridge and then cherry pick ones you want to put in PDF. It seems like there's a lot of hard work being done to make a printable fridge :)
[10:11] <mgalvin> i do think however that some or possibly much of what goes into the weekly letters could also make its way into a mag
[10:12] <mgalvin> jenda: sorry, a little busy at the moment, let me read the rest of what has gone on thus far and i will also talk to jsgotangco and Riddell about it
[10:12] <jenda> dsas: you don't print on fridges - yo uuse fridge magnets
[10:12] <jenda> OK
[10:13] <mgalvin> JaneW and mdz where actually the ones who suggested a consolidated weekly newsletter so i may talk to them about it as well
[10:13] <mgalvin> not to say we can't work together, i am sure we can in some way, just not sure how yet :)
[10:13] <jenda> Hehe...
[10:14] <jenda> Well - in any case, it seems to me that between the Fridge, Ubunt Mag and the newsletter, there is bound to be something redundant ;)
[10:14] <jenda> Ok, feel free to take your time ;)
[10:15] <mdke_> stupid fricking blog
[10:15] <mdke_> anyone use pyblosxom?
[10:15] <mgalvin> nope, wordpress here
[10:16] <mgalvin> jenda: ok, cool, i'll get back to you on it very soon
[10:16] <Bilange> well.... maybe the newsletter idea could be used to give a weekly summary of the posts on the fridge?
[10:17] <jenda> mgalvin: OK, sounds great
[10:17] <jenda> hmm
[10:17] <mgalvin> Bilange: fridge posts don't happen that often :-/
[10:17] <jenda> well, actually - i like dsas' idea of a 'printable' fridge.
[10:17] <dsas> mdke: date converts timestampes
[10:18] <Bilange> mgalvin:  I dont go there much often, to tell the truth
[10:18] <mgalvin> me neither, since its not that active usually
[10:18] <dsas> well if the magazine team is going to be writing lots of articles then there will be more stuff on the fridge :). if you're modelling after gnome journal then that's monthly anyway I think.
[10:19] <mgalvin> i do however tend to check it once a week or so if i remember
[10:19] <Bilange> since there's not much posting in the fridge, that would make a great candidate for setting up a newsletter, since the "official" fridge is more devlopers centered than, for example, ubuntu-fr fridge, which is more newbie centric (howtos, releases, etc)
[10:20] <dsas> isn't the fridge intended to be user-centric though?
[10:20] <Burgwork> dsas, fridge is developer/community centric
[10:21] <Burgwork> the magazine, afaik, looks to be more user centric
[10:21] <Burgwork> think, fridge is for you, magazine is for mother
[10:21] <mgalvin> and the newsletter is almost sort of for management
[10:22] <mgalvin> as per my discussion with jane
[10:22] <dsas> Ah ok, that makes sense.
[10:22] <mgalvin> think more like a company newsletter
[10:22] <Burgwork> but also for community/developers
[10:22] <mgalvin> right
[10:22] <Bilange> all in all, my idea was: a fridge going user centric with a large amount of posts, moving the current kind of fridge posts on a newsletter (since theres not too much traffic, its not gonna fill up one's mailbox), then make a meltingpot, a best of both of these into a magazine
[10:24] <mgalvin> the magazine would almost certainly be a melting pot, i just don't know how active the fridge would be
[10:24] <mgalvin> we'd have to talk to the maintainers of it
[10:24] <Burgwork> hey pygi 
[10:24] <pygi> hey Burgwork :)
[10:25] <mgalvin> hi pygi
[10:25] <pygi> hey mgalvin 
[10:38] <jenda> back - sorry for missing out a bit... GNAA attack in #easyubuntu :(
[10:40] <mgalvin> GNAA?
[10:43] <rob> yep
[10:43] <rob> oh, internet troll group
[10:44] <dsas> mgalvin: the mention of what that stands for will get you booted from ubuntu channels. they go round flooding people en masse and things
[10:44] <mgalvin> ah
[10:46] <Burgwork> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=187191&cid=15444713 <-- how about this one?
[10:47] <mgalvin> wtf?
[10:47] <Burgwork> yep, dealing with a troll on the VLUG discuss mailing list
[10:56] <jenda> err... yes, the Ubuntu Magazine is intended purely as user-centric. For the people who have _just_ come to Ubuntu and _just_ fell in love with it...
[11:01] <mdke_> Lathiat: how about now?
[11:04] <mgalvin> later all
[11:14] <pygi> jenda, where is that u-m?
[11:19] <jenda> err
[11:19] <jenda> not sure what'ya mean: #ubuntu-marketing , www.ubuntupeople.com
[11:24] <pygi> jenda, ubuntu magazine
[11:24] <jenda> ah, sorry
[11:24] <jenda> j'sec
[11:25] <jenda> there is none, really - it's just a project under weigh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine
[11:25] <jenda> Has been tried and fail repeatedly, as can be seen there
[11:25] <pygi> jenda, you manage the ubuntupeople stuff?
[11:25] <pygi> wrong spelling:  www.spreaubuntu.org :)
[11:25] <jenda> not really, no, I just try to get it together
[11:26] <jenda> that too
[11:26] <jenda> http://www.ubuntupeople.com/file/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4&start=70
[11:26] <pygi> magazine can be assembled, that is no problem
[11:26] <jenda> err...
[11:26] <jenda> bad page there
[11:26] <pygi> I even think I could get people for that
[11:26] <jenda> but it's the right forum
[11:26] <jenda> that would be great :)
[11:27] <pygi> not sure it's worth it tho :-/
[11:27] <jenda> I think it is, really
[11:28] <jenda> check out that thread (last page or two)
[11:28] <pygi> jenda, will do
[11:29] <pygi> you have  any more detailed plan btw.? frequency of getting "out", bla, bla?
[11:30] <jenda> teh wiki
[11:31] <jenda> 2 months is planned by digitalmouse (I'd prefer shorter periods)
[11:31] <pygi> well, it seems you started work on it?
[11:32] <pygi> jenda, 20/05/200
[11:32] <pygi> 2006*
[11:33] <jenda> not me, but yes
[11:33] <jenda> work has resumed
[11:34] <pygi> so no problem then ? :)
[11:36] <jenda> nope, none :)
[11:38] <pygi> nice then :)
[11:39] <dsas> good.