[12:06] <Burgwork> kermitX_, hmm, that be some optics problems
[12:14] <LaserJock> optics?
[12:14] <Burgwork> optics is how something appears. Marketing term
[12:14] <LaserJock> oh
[12:14] <LaserJock> I was thinking optics as in laser optics :-)
[12:14] <Burgwork> something like landscape-client may actually be a godo thing and be gpl'ed, but lack of information means that there is a lot of FUD flying around
[12:15] <Burgwork> personally, I don't see why they don't just announce what it is, now that they have effectively announced it via dapper-changes
[12:15] <Fujitsu> Oh for goodness sake...
[12:16] <Fujitsu> Somebody in #ubuntu is complaining that there is no easy facility to downgrade.
[12:16] <Burgwork> no, dpkg doesn't support it
[12:16] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: that's a long standing problem with dpkg, i think
[12:17] <LaserJock> not that anyone would really want to downgrade. Dapper is so awesome ;-)
[12:17] <Fujitsu> He's doesn't want to accept that he can't downgrade...
[12:17] <Fujitsu> How silly.
[12:17] <Burgwork> it is a legit use case, just a hard one to implement
[12:18] <kermitX_> rolling back upgrades to packages would be tricky to implement.
[12:18] <infinity> We don't support it because it makes packaging instantly 500% harder.
[12:19] <Fujitsu> Very difficult to implement...
[12:19] <infinity> dpkg DOES support downgrades.
[12:19] <Fujitsu> And very silly.
[12:19] <infinity> Individual maintainer scripts don't.
[12:19] <Fujitsu> apt-get dist-downgrade...
[12:19] <infinity> (And Debian Policy clearly tells us we don't have to)
[12:20] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[12:20] <infinity> Whe nyou have maintainer scripts doing whacky transitional stuff in maintainer scripts (moving files and directories, converting directories to symlinks and vice-versa), your job gets infinitely harder when you have to cope with all possible cases of doing that BACKWARDS.
[12:21] <LaserJock> yep, I here breakage
[12:21] <LaserJock> *hear
[12:24] <neuralis> hey ptlo
[12:24] <ptlo> heya neuralis! long time no see :-) 
[12:25] <ptlo> 'sup, how's the olpc python thingy working out?
[12:26] <neuralis> ptlo: i'm in your general area; we should find time to hoist a few pints
[12:29] <ptlo> you're on the same continent again? cool :) yeah, i'm looking forward to it
[01:28] <bddebian> Howdy
[01:30] <ajmitch> hi
[01:30] <mdke> hello
[02:48] <desrt> does anyone have software-controlled brightness?
[02:48] <desrt> for their laptop LCD
[02:50] <infinity> desrt: My Thinkpad does.
[02:50] <desrt> how does gnome handle it?
[02:51] <infinity> Look at gnome-power-manager's source.
[02:51] <infinity> I assume it uses hal.
[02:51] <infinity> Since there's no standard way at the kernel level.
[02:52] <infinity> (Mine, for instance, is in /proc/acpi/ibm, I think.
[02:52] <infinity> )
[02:53] <desrt> how does g-p-m grab the keyboard keys?
[02:54] <infinity> It doesn't... That's lower-level... hotkey-setup, probably.
[02:55] <desrt> neat.
[02:56] <infinity> I just happen to know that g-p-m twiddles brightness for other reasons, hence the suggestion to look there for how to do it via hal.
[02:56] <desrt> thanks for the pointer
[02:57] <bddebian> Heya infinity
[02:57] <bddebian> Good work man! :-)
[02:58] <infinity> With anyhting in particular, or just in general?
[03:00] <infinity> Meh, if you all loved me, you mail me some screwdrivers that don't strip the heads on the first use.
[03:00] <Fujitsu> Haha,
[03:00] <infinity> My kingdom for a hardware store in Australia that doesn't sell third-world crap.
[03:00] <desrt> oh wow
[03:00] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[03:00] <desrt> hal itself watches the buttons
[03:00] <Fujitsu> You're Adam Conrad, aren't you?
[03:00] <desrt> elite!!
[03:00] <Fujitsu> In Melbourne?
[03:01] <infinity> Fujitsu: Last time I checked.
[03:01] <Fujitsu> infinity, aha. Right near me...
[03:01] <mdke> infinity: why do you find yourself in melbourne anyways?
[03:01] <Fujitsu> :O
[03:01] <Fujitsu> Did mdke just insult Melbourne!?
[03:01] <mdke> no, it looks nice on the tv
[03:02] <mdke> but I was just wondering
[03:02] <bluefoxicy> hey nice release with dapper.  Looking forward to Edgy devel.
[03:02] <bluefoxicy> Anyway.
[03:03] <bluefoxicy> I'm looking to take Dapper right now and run some sort of program that magically tells me where %eip goes during execution and graphs it, without doing much more work than install-run-graph
[03:03] <infinity> mdke: I moved here from Canadia because my girlfriend is Australian.
[03:03] <Fujitsu> ...
[03:04] <Fujitsu> Wow, I'm from Canada as well.
[03:04] <Fujitsu> Hi, licio.
[03:04] <bluefoxicy> It occurs to me this is the only place I'm likely to get a hint on where to look for profiling stuff on Ubuntu.  Any ideas?  or is this more "rebuild the whole system, patch the kernel, run this analysis software, gather these output files, look at these in this way, run this parser"
[03:04] <mdke> infinity: ah. I googled you yesterday and found your girlfriend's site. it's scary
[03:04] <licio> hi Fujitsu 
[03:04] <infinity> mdke: It doesn't scare me so much. :P
[03:04] <bluefoxicy> (in particular I want to see how much time is spent in shared objects versus the main executable; this could be VERY SIGNIFICANT in making an argument on building Edgy with position independent executables or working on that for Edgy+1)
[03:05] <mdke> infinity: glad to hear it
[03:05] <bluefoxicy> infinity:  my boyfriend is from canada :o
[03:05] <bluefoxicy> he just moved back to alberta :(
[03:05] <bluefoxicy> from ottawa, so besides 2 timezone difference not much has changed
[03:06] <mdke> infinity: i take it that isn't your still beating heart in her hand then
[03:06] <mdke> you'll need that
[03:06] <infinity> mdke: *laugh*... No, we're past that stage now.  3.5 years together means we're just boring old people now.
[03:07] <mdke> that's the best way
[03:07] <ajmitch> heh
[03:08] <infinity> I won't deny that "comfortably boring" is generally nicer than "OMG, excitement, WOW"
[03:08] <infinity> Though some of the latter isn't all bad.
[03:08] <infinity> Also, holy crap is this ever offtopic.
[03:08] <infinity> Shall we go babble in #ubuntu-offtopic?
[03:09] <Fujitsu> Is any development actually going to happen here, though>
[03:09] <Fujitsu> *?
[03:09] <infinity> I wouldn't put it past people to attempt some.
[03:09] <mdke> alright
[03:09] <infinity> I'm happy to take the weekend to "have a life" (and catch up on some Debian stuff), but to each their own.
[03:13] <bddebian> infinity: For everything :-)
[03:29] <bluefoxicy> wow
[03:31] <Fujitsu> ?
[03:34] <mdke> haha
[03:35] <infinity> Fujitsu: Do you know, off the top of your head, where I could buy canned air?
[03:35] <infinity> Fujitsu: It doesn't seem to be a popular product here...
[03:35] <Fujitsu> No, it doesn't.
[03:35] <infinity> (To blow dust/dirt out of components, etc)
[03:36] <Fujitsu> It's annoying.
[03:36] <ajmitch> dick smith electronics store?
[03:36] <Fujitsu> And, as you say, the complete expensiveness of anything electronic, and the patheticness of most tools, is really annoying.
[03:36] <infinity> ajmitch: Dick Smith is useless.
[03:36] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[03:36] <Fujitsu> I gave up on DSE ages ago.
[03:36] <ajmitch> infinity: usually, but that's about the only place I know of here that would have it
[03:36] <Fujitsu> Jaycar I often use...
[03:37] <ajmitch> hey zul  :)
[03:37] <Fujitsu> Morning, zul.
[03:37] <bddebian> Hi zul
[03:37] <zul> hey
[03:37] <bddebian> :-)
[03:37] <zul> are we that bored?
[03:37] <bddebian> Yep
[03:38] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[03:38] <infinity> I mean, sure, I'm not much good at counting past 3 either, but c'mon...
[03:38] <mdke> 1, 2, 5
[03:38] <mdke> (3 sire)
[03:38] <Fujitsu> Yay... Two weeks until Dapper is deployed on our mail/web server at school.
[03:39] <Fujitsu> The Holy Hand-grenade!
[03:40] <infinity> mdke: Brits aren't allowed to quote that...
[03:40] <mdke> explain yourself
[03:40] <mdke> it's all we do
[03:40] <Fujitsu> :O
[03:40] <infinity> mdke: It destroys the illusion that only foreigners like Monty Python.
[03:40] <zul> chicken of bristol?
[03:40] <bddebian> heh
[03:41] <infinity> (Much like, only foreigners like Degrassi Jr High, which is so painfully true)
[03:41] <zul> heh my wife likes degrassi jr high
[03:41] <Fujitsu> Yep, very true.
[03:42] <infinity> mdke: I would consider the quoting of slighty-less-commonly-exported humour to be acceptable, like Black Books, perhaps.
[03:42] <Fujitsu> Black Books is great1
[03:42] <Fujitsu> *!
[03:42] <zul> black adder is funny
[03:43] <mdke> infinity: I'll go and order myself a box set immediately
[03:43] <infinity> mdke: Excellent.
[03:43] <infinity> mdke: I get a comission on each DVD sold.
[03:43] <mdke> heh
[03:45] <zul> heh...dont mention the germans
[03:45] <zul> or the war either
[03:45] <Fujitsu> *Fawlty Towers
[03:48] <infinity> Is there nothing more horribly ironic (and sad) than installing Windows 2 days after the Ubuntu release? :/
[03:48] <Fujitsu> ?
[03:49] <infinity> (reinstalling my girlfriend's Windows/Pornoshop beast)
[03:49] <Fujitsu> D:
[03:49] <infinity> Now with a terrabyte RAID.
[03:49] <mdke> :(
[03:49] <infinity> Yessir, that's love.
[03:49] <Fujitsu> NO more Windows problem.
[03:49] <ajmitch> I used to think that a terabyte was quite a bit
[03:50] <ajmitch> but now we can buy single drives about that size already
[03:50] <Fujitsu> Like Seagate's 750GB.
[03:50] <infinity> ajmitch: Yeah, I'm installing the 4 300GB drives at the same time as reading reviews for 750GB drives.  Suck.
[03:50] <ajmitch> same old thing
[03:50] <ajmitch> my 3x250GB RAID seems small now
[03:51] <infinity> OTOH, Australia won't see thoe 750GB drives at a reasonable price for, like, 5 years, so whatever.
[03:51] <Fujitsu> Big server revamp, including partial Ubuntu conversion.
[03:51] <Fujitsu> infinity, only 5 years!?
[03:51] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: dapper?
[03:51] <Fujitsu> ajmitch, yes.
[03:52] <infinity> Fujitsu: I just buy hardware and sneak it home everytime I visit North America.
[03:52] <Fujitsu> Hehhe.
[03:52] <infinity> Fujitsu: Sadly, it's the only way to get anything new without spending half my salary.
[03:52] <Fujitsu> Yay for being a student admin on a ~200 workstation network.
[03:53] <Fujitsu> (yes, we're using Exchange at the moment)
[03:53] <infinity> My purchased-in-America Thinkpad still retails here for what I paid for it a year ago.
[03:53] <Fujitsu> Yeah, Australia is silly.
[03:53] <ajmitch> and NZ is determined to follow
[03:53] <infinity> OTOH, this gives me high hopes for being able to eBay it at a good price when I upgrade.
[03:54] <infinity> Fujitsu: Unless you're in the market for a "guaranteed to work with Ubuntu, cause a core-dev owned it and made sure of that" laptop? :)
[03:55] <Fujitsu> infinity, no. I've got my Dell Inspiron 630m here. Almost works perfectly, only a couple of open bugs.
[03:55] <Fujitsu> infinity, it's good to have a proper Ubuntu dev. in Melbourne :)
[03:55] <ajmitch> maybe I should flog off my laptop that way..
[03:55] <mdke> me too
[03:56] <mdke> and anyone else with the same laptop as infinity 
[03:56] <Fujitsu> Heh.
[03:58] <Fujitsu> Heheh. Good.
[03:58] <infinity> Though not enough of us have managed to get our hands on T60/X60 hardware to guarantee anything there yet.
[03:58] <infinity> (A T60 is high on my list of "stuff to buy when I get around to it)
[03:59] <Fujitsu> So, how long until Edgy development starts moving properly?
[03:59] <ajmitch> really moving? after paris, I guess
[03:59] <infinity> It'll slowly start trickling in around Tuesdayish.
[03:59] <TheMuso> My R50 works perfectly. Can't complain. :) And this was before Ubuntu came out.
[03:59] <crimsun> Fujitsu: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-June/000144.html
[03:59] <Fujitsu> That's one list I'm not on...
[03:59] <Fujitsu> Thanks, crimsun.
[04:00] <infinity> There will be some mass syncs happening next week, but Ubuntu-specific feature devel likely won't happen until post-Paris.
[04:00] <Fujitsu> Aha.
[04:00] <infinity> We should have a large chunk of sid synced into edgy before Paris, though.
[04:00] <infinity> Modulo some outstanding merges here and there.
[04:01] <ajmitch> so don't bother trying to upgrade then
[04:01] <infinity> ajmitch: MOTU should have a much easier time, with our X coming into sync with Debian's.
[04:01] <ajmitch> thankfully
[04:01] <infinity> ajmitch: You should be able to drop changes on most of the stuff in universe.. Hopefully.
[04:01] <Fujitsu> Damnit.
[04:01] <ajmitch> and we'll be able to drop the python2.3/2.4 mess soon
[04:01] <Fujitsu> Mekong has been down for almost 24 hours now.
[04:01] <infinity> ajmitch: If you run into any snags along those lines, let me know, and I'll make sure to push whatever transitional changes we need into sid/etch.
[04:01] <Fujitsu> It's really annoying.
[04:02] <infinity> ajmitch: python2.4 in sid should be happening in the next week or two.
[04:02] <ajmitch> we agreed to drop zope2.8 from sid last night, iirc
[04:02] <infinity> ajmitch: Of course, doko may decide that he wants to try python2.5 in edgy. :)
[04:02] <infinity> (Probably not, though)
[04:02] <ajmitch> even if doko wants 2.5, the python-support stuff should avoid having lots of python2.5-* packages
[04:03] <infinity> Hopefully.
[04:03] <ajmitch> zope2.8 is the last big user of python2.3 specific packages in dapper, we can drop it for edgy
[04:03] <ajmitch> I had to add a couple of python2.3 packages to universe, taking source from main
[04:03] <ajmitch> a nasty mess :)
[04:04] <Fujitsu> Why?
[04:04] <ajmitch> zope2.8 requires python2.3-xml, for example
[04:06] <infinity> zope2.8 should just die anyway.
[04:07] <ajmitch> it will
[04:07] <ajmitch> soon
[04:07] <infinity> Then again, I think zope in general should just die, but others may disagree. :)
[04:07] <ajmitch> heh
[04:07] <mdke> haha
[04:07] <ajmitch> the main use I have of zope is plone
[04:07] <infinity> Which should ALSO die.
[04:07] <mdke> and launchpad :)
[04:07] <infinity> Of course, the main use for zope that I have is launchpad, so whatever.  I'm stuck with it.
[04:08] <ajmitch> lucky
[04:08] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[04:09] <LaserJock> infinity: so LP should die too? ;-)
[04:09] <ajmitch> LaserJock: don't ask those questions in a publically logged channel
[04:09] <Fujitsu> Are there enough ubiquity bugs?
[04:10] <infinity> Fujitsu: If you touch ubiquity bugs, Colin *will* hurt you.
[04:10] <infinity> (Unless you're touching them to include patches)
[04:11] <Fujitsu> infinity, aha. I dealt with a few yesterday, asking them to attach the appropriate logs.
[04:11] <LaserJock> ajmitch: hmm, hadn't thought about that
[04:11] <Fujitsu> And Colin modified all of them shortly afterwards.
[04:11] <Fujitsu> How many Canonical-based Ubuntu devs are there?
[04:11] <infinity> Fujitsu: Oh, asking people to attach logs is fine.  Just don't go duping or rejecting or whatnot.
[04:12] <Fujitsu> infinity, I thought so.
[04:12] <infinity> Fujitsu: 99% of d-i/ubiquity bugs that looks like dupes aren't.
[04:12] <Fujitsu> infinity, I know :)
[04:12] <infinity> Fujitsu: (Because "stuff doesn't install right" always looks the same to most people)
[04:12] <Fujitsu> Because they all look practically the same.
[04:12] <infinity> I have the same problem with initramfs-tools. :/
[04:12] <Fujitsu> It'd be nice if they didn't die with what looked like the same error...
[04:12] <infinity> "Hey, it can't find MY root filesystem either, this is totally the same bug!"
[04:12] <infinity> ARGH.
[04:13] <infinity> I just wish people would file new bugs instead of commenting in ones that they think are "the same bug"
[04:13] <infinity> Makes it impossible to sort out when one of the 30 bugs in the comment list has been fixed.
[04:13] <Fujitsu> Yes, it's irritating.
[04:13] <zul> infinity: very irritating
[04:13] <Fujitsu> Although it must be bad for the people that actually have to deal with them.
[04:14] <crimsun> my favourite is inlining huge pastes of semi-relevant information.
[04:14] <Fujitsu> YEs.
[04:14] <infinity> I like the ricer kids that need to tell you every piece of hardware in their system.
[04:14] <Fujitsu> Like, multi-hundred line ones in the root.
[04:14] <Fujitsu> Hmm
[04:15] <infinity> "I have an ASUS whizzbang motherboard and an Athlon64 4000+, is my CPU too fast for Ubuntu?"
[04:15] <Fujitsu> Are reports that things don't install icons valid bug reports?
[04:15] <Fujitsu> Heheheheh
[04:15] <infinity> Fujitsu: Sure, icon and desktop file reports are valid wishlists.
[04:15] <Fujitsu> OK.
[04:15] <Fujitsu> I shall mark them as such (there are two new ones).
[04:17] <bddebian> No they aren't :-)
[04:18] <infinity> Fujitsu: Okay, to ME they're wishlists.  Alternately, you could make them critical and assign them to bddebian. :P
[04:19] <Fujitsu> YES!
[04:19] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[04:19] <Fujitsu> Why do we have to use Launchpad?
[04:19] <Fujitsu> It's got no `Grave' severity.
[04:19] <bddebian> infinity: Well as many as I have done you can if you want :-)
[04:19] <infinity> I think the debbugs severities were deemed unfriendly.
[04:19] <bddebian> Unless of course they are for main packages
[04:20] <infinity> bddebian: You're welcome to provide .desktop and icon (and icon transparency, and, and) patches in bug reports for main packages.
[04:20] <infinity> bddebian: I'm pretty sure I've done a few that other people left patches in.
[04:20] <bddebian> Why, so they don't get uploaded like my kscd one? :-)
[04:20] <infinity> bddebian: (And done a few without patches when they really irritated me, like the gnome-bluetooth stuff)
[04:20] <bddebian> Sorry, that was pissy
[04:21] <infinity> bddebian: You'd have to whine to Riddell about that one.  I don't touch KDE, except when it's FTBFS.
[04:21] <ajmitch> bddebian: you assume that developers have time to look at bugs for every main package
[04:21] <bddebian> Aye, I know
[04:21] <bddebian> ajmitch: I don't assume anything
[04:22] <bddebian> I did ask a couple people to take a look.  But when I ask too much I become a pain in the ass :)
[04:22] <Fujitsu> Great.
[04:22] <Fujitsu> Bug #48150
[04:22] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48150 in linux-kernel-headers "2.6.15-23 headers are not in the repositories" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48150
[04:23] <infinity> That's special..
[04:23] <Fujitsu> Of course, he searched for kernel-headers.
[04:23] <ajmitch> probably following a howto
[04:24] <infinity> Fujitsu: That's actually a dupe of bug #35186
[04:24] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 35186 in glibc "linux-kernel-headers should be renamed to linux-libc-headers for clarify" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/35186
[04:24] <infinity> Fujitsu: Well, sort of. :)
[04:24] <infinity> Fujitsu: The fact that he filed it on "linux-kernel-headers" confirms 35186's assumption that we should really rename that package.
[04:25] <Fujitsu> Hmm. Yes.
[04:25] <Fujitsu> #35186 isn't /that/ hard to fix, is it?
[04:25] <infinity> Lacks round tuits.
[04:26] <infinity> I'm sure I'll do it for edgy, but I'd like to get the same change in etch/sid, to avoid even more confusion.
[04:27] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[04:27] <ajmitch> next you'll end up as glibc maintainer..
[04:27] <infinity> ajmitch: Too late.
[04:27] <bddebian> heh nice
[04:27] <ajmitch> my condolences
[04:28] <infinity> ajmitch: I already joined the Debian glibc team, and jbailey and I are co-maintaining it in Ubuntu.
[04:28] <bddebian> Then get to work on the hurd bits of glibc will ya? ;-P
[04:28] <infinity> bddebian: Uhm, no.  That's not my thing. :)
[04:28] <ajmitch> didn't realise you'd joined that team
[04:28] <infinity> bddebian: I have my own useless port (m68k) to worry about, thanks.
[04:28] <bddebian> heh
[04:28] <Fujitsu> Heheh.
[04:29] <ajmitch> today would be a good day to fix some of my debian bugs
[04:30] <infinity> Okay, the guy at Sony/Ericsson who decided to put a really bright white LED on my phone was a GENIUS.
[04:30] <infinity> (It's the only flashlight I own, and works great in tight spaces)
[04:30] <bluefoxicy> hm
[04:30] <Fujitsu> Hehe. Not bad.
[04:31] <bluefoxicy> system wide total it seems 10% of code is executed in actual elf fixed position main executables.
[04:31] <bluefoxicy> 8.2% of that so far is X
[04:32] <bluefoxicy> does anyone think it's unreasonable to place a 6% performance hit here (on x86)?  Total impact appears to be (at a glance) 0.6%
[04:32] <bluefoxicy> however I need to figure out htf to get oprofile to work better and do more fine-grained tests >:|
[04:33] <ajmitch> bluefoxicy: pax?
[04:33] <zul> bluefoxicy: let me guess you used gentoo at one point?
[04:33] <bluefoxicy> ajmitch:  mm, actually just doing PIE
[04:34] <bluefoxicy> ajmitch:  compiling a program as position independent executable imposes a 0.99% performance overhead.  Compiling with -fomit-frame-pointer gives a 5% performance increase; however, this is ineffective with PIE on x86.
[04:34] <bluefoxicy> ajmitch:  assuming we rely on the 5% performance gain from -fomit, that's total 6% slow-down from PIE; but it only affects the main executable
[04:34] <TheMuso> c
[04:34] <TheMuso> sorry...
[04:36] <bluefoxicy> The result of using a position independent executable is that the main executable .text segment and heap become segments in a dynamic elf binary, identical to a shared object.  This allows the base of the main executable AND the heap to take full advantage of existing mmap() randomization in vanilla linux since 2.6.12, as well as higher-entropy PaX randomization if a grsecurity kernel is used (which there is discussion of on
[04:36] <bluefoxicy>  the wiki)
[04:36] <bluefoxicy> in other words you get added security for free
[04:37] <bluefoxicy> I'm trying to quantify 'free' by determining how much code actually executes in the main executable; so far, Xorg's main executable accounts for 8% of my CPU usage here for the whole system.  Using oprofile it seems that total (grepping out any image with .so in it) every main executable including Xorg uses about 10% of the CPU
[04:38] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[04:38] <bluefoxicy> the next most intensive thing was The Battle for Wesnoth (0.54%), oprofiled (0.477%), gtk-gnutella (0.2581%), and metacity (0.0757%)
[04:38] <bluefoxicy> however
[04:39] <bluefoxicy> I have nfc how to really use oprofile
[04:39] <Fujitsu> If a bug was caused by a dodgy BIOS, and was fixed by an update, is it invalid?
[04:39] <bluefoxicy> I just started it up and then ran oreport to see wtf is going on :P
[04:40] <bluefoxicy> zul:  Yes, I used gentoo with full PaX, PIE, and propolice.  Fedora Core 5 includes full FORTIFY_STACK, ProPolice (gcc 4.1 merged), light address space randomization via mainline and exec shield (with heap randomization not in mainline-- this breaks things occasionally), and a few daemons like Apache built as PIE
[04:41] <bluefoxicy> zul:  I believe this may be a good direction for Ubuntu to take, with Edgy or Edgy+1; PIE is a hard argument because Theo de Raadt, Ingo Molnar, and Arjan van de Ven will all tell you that it's extremely expensive and makes the system unbearably slow without providing any use cases or numbers to back this up
[04:41] <bluefoxicy> Theo, Ingo, and Arjan are all respected names in the community so everyone takes their statements as gold.
[04:42] <bluefoxicy> (Theo's actual argument against me when I challenged him on the real overhead of PIE was, "I don't even know who you are.  Everyone knows who I am, I created openbsd, we invented this stuff")
[05:24] <whiprush_> jdub: ping
[05:43] <desrt> is there a similar mechanism to the replaces: header that allows the overwritten files to remain installed when the 2nd package is removed?
[05:43] <desrt> (so that the overwritten files are only removed by removing the package to which the original file belonged)
[05:45] <infinity> desrt: You mean, you want package B to say "when I'm installed, package A's files should go away, but they should come back when I'm removed"?
[05:46] <desrt> no. that's impossible
[05:46] <infinity> No, that's not, that's diversions.
[05:46] <desrt> i mean i want a package to effectively upgrade a single file of another package
[05:46] <desrt> actually
[05:46] <desrt> that's quite fine, i guess
[05:46] <desrt> how do i do this?
[05:46] <infinity> man dpkg-divert
[05:46] <desrt> thanks
[05:47] <infinity> If you're just looking to upgrade package A, though, do that. ;)
[05:47] <desrt> i want to replace a single file
[05:47] <infinity> dpkg-divert is only sane if you really need package B to ship a file that shouldn't be in package A, but is needed by package B.
[05:48] <desrt> what happens if A gets upgraded in the meantime?
[05:48] <infinity> (See, for install, nvidia-glx and fglrx using dpkg-divert to use their own libGL.so.1.2)
[05:48] <desrt> divert puts the new version of the stock file in its little storage cabinet for safe-keeping?
[05:48] <infinity> That's the point of a diversion.  If you divert libGL.so.1.2 to /usr/lib/fglrx/libGL.so.1.2, the next time libgl1-mesa is upgraded, it's copy goes to the bogus location.
[05:49] <desrt> nice.
[05:49] <infinity> When the diversion is removed, the right file is moved back into place.
[05:49] <infinity> It's a sketchy process, and best avoided in most cases, but useful when unavoidable.
[05:51] <desrt> i like to learn.
[06:21] <desrt> infinity; woo.  go dpkg-divert.
[06:34] <bluefoxicy> here's a question
[06:34] <bluefoxicy> 1.8% execution performance overhead
[06:34] <bluefoxicy> For every 60 minutes of continuous maxed 100% CPU usage without a break, 1 additional minute of execution time is needed to complete the task.
[06:34] <bluefoxicy> Honestly, do we care?
[06:38] <sfllaw> bluefoxicy: It depends.  It's a bit of a loaded question you're asking.
[06:39] <sfllaw> Foreground or background task?  Interactive or batch?  Latency or bandwidth constrained?  I/O or CPU driven?
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  system wide, compiler modification that allows a security guarantee to be made on the probability that any given instance of an attack can actually result in exploitation of a known security hole.
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  CPU driven.
[06:40] <sfllaw> You mean you're adding in code to compiled applications?
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> no
[06:40] <sfllaw> Or is this static analysis?
[06:40] <desrt> ok.  next task
[06:40] <desrt> learn how to install an initscript
[06:41] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  open a shell and do:  /lib/libc.so.6
[06:41] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  (just trust me on this one, it'll work)
[06:41] <sfllaw> I know it does.
[06:41] <bluefoxicy> ok
[06:41] <bluefoxicy> You know why that works right?
[06:41] <bluefoxicy> libc.so.6 has a _main(), and is thus an executable program, but is position independent and all because it's a library
[06:42] <sfllaw> Yes.
[06:42] <bluefoxicy> well on IA-32, doing this to a program causes a 0.99% decrease in execution speed of the code in the main executable of the program; also, using -fomit-frame-pointer normally gives a 5% increase in execution speed, but this is completely ineffective with position independent code.
[06:43] <bluefoxicy> 6% total decrease in execution speed of the code
[06:43] <Burgundavia> crimsun: you around?
[06:43] <bluefoxicy> However, system-wide, according to oprofile only 10% of the code executed on my system in a half hour was in any main executable; 8% of that was in Xorg (spends a lot of time in the main executable huh?) and the rest were all around 1/2 percent except battle for wesnoth
[06:44] <bluefoxicy> Overall, that's a 0.6% decrease in execution speed (10% of the time you're in code that's 6% slower?)
[06:44] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  However, I am guessing that the time spent in the main executable ranges from 1% to 30% and saying this is 0.06% to 1.8% performance hit
[06:45] <bluefoxicy> (percent of time spent in affected code times slowdown on execution of said code)
[06:46] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  Randomization of the stack and mmap() base is nice, but a really crafty attacker can inject his stack frames in the heap (at a known base address) and return to a 'call system()' instruction with SFP putting the pointer somewhere appropriate in the heap
[06:46] <bluefoxicy> this would give a pretty damn workable method of completely nullifying the protection afforded by mmap()/stack randomization with 100% efficiency
[06:46] <sfllaw> Are you proposing that we take out -fPIC for IA-32?
[06:46] <bluefoxicy> uh hell no.
[06:47] <bluefoxicy> Opposite way
[06:47] <bluefoxicy> (and also you can't take -fPIC out for IA-32, libraries break massively)
[06:48] <bluefoxicy> By making the main executable a PIE, it suffers the noted performance slow-down; however, it also makes the described attack impossible, as the main .text segment is randomized via mmap() and the heap is an anonymous mapping randomized via mmap() (I *THINK* you need extra kernel code to actually randomize the heap though... I'm not sure it gets stuffed into the GOT)
[06:49] <bluefoxicy> thus you can make a security guarantee that security attacks based on buffer overflows, double free()s, etc are likely to succeed 1 in every 2^27 times (134 million fail states, 1 success state)
[06:49] <bluefoxicy> in theory
[06:50] <bluefoxicy> I'm proposing that the main executables be built -fPIE (-fPIC for main executable) on all architectures, I just want to get a heads up on what the reaction to the predicted performance impact will be like :)
[06:52] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw:  too much shit to think about at 1am?  :)
[06:52] <sfllaw> Hmm.
[06:52] <sfllaw> I think it will be slightly controversial.
[06:52] <sfllaw> But not very.
[06:52] <bluefoxicy> likely.
[06:53] <bluefoxicy> I have had trouble with this in the past, tried to convince Arjan and Theo on it and they're.. well
[06:53] <bluefoxicy> Arjan just evaded the issue
[06:53] <bgertzfield> Theo is Theo.
[06:53] <bgertzfield> What can you do?
[06:53] <bluefoxicy> Theo insisted that PIE is 'very expensive' and that the system would become excessively slow
[06:53] <bluefoxicy> and when I began to explain to him how encoding algorithms, compression libraries, plug-ins for anything, rendering engines, painting, etc are all in libraries and not affected (they're PIC anyway but it doesn't matter either way)
[06:54] <bluefoxicy> his retort was that he didn't know who I am, and that he is the project lead for OpenBSD and "we invented this stuff" so he knows more about it than me :P
[06:54] <bluefoxicy> Needless to say I'm expecting a lot of resistence
[06:55] <sfllaw> Draw up a spec.
[06:55] <bluefoxicy> I KNOW RedHat has papers out (penned by Arjan) that say PIE has excessive, non-managable overhead; I don't know about OpenBSD.  As for me, i've run the stuff before (Gentoo)
[06:55] <sfllaw> Edgy is cutting-edge.
[06:55] <Burgundavia> bluefoxicy: please focus on the good and not on Theo
[06:55] <bluefoxicy> Burgundavia:  he's not ALL bad, just a little egoey :)
[06:56] <bluefoxicy> sfllaw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/ProactiveSecurityRoadmap  This is from back in Breezy, I didn't pen this one.
[06:56] <Burgundavia> bluefoxicy: regardless of who he is, this is not the place to disucss it. But good work
[06:56] <bluefoxicy> I added to it in a bunch of places and restatused it from BreezyGoal to EdgyGoal although I am sure only a few things can possibly make Edgy.
[06:56] <bluefoxicy> Burgundavia:  nod.
[06:57] <bluefoxicy> I need sleep soon anyway
[06:57] <bluefoxicy> I'll stop cluttering #-devel in a few minutes
[06:58] <bluefoxicy> I also have to at least get something written about memory protection policies before I can hit send.
[07:01] <bluefoxicy> so g'night all.
[07:07] <desrt> ow.  mine eyes.
[07:08] <ajmitch> heh
[07:08] <Burgundavia> what for?
[07:08] <desrt> macbook brightness control
[07:08] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:09] <Burgundavia> is there not a sane place for all these little pieces of code?
[07:09] <desrt> ya.  it's called hal :)
[07:09] <Burgundavia> ah
 macbook brightness control
[07:10] <Burgundavia> so have you submitted your code to HAL?
[07:10] <bluefoxicy> desrt:  And for desert we have fried testicles.
[07:10] <desrt> Burgundavia; nope.
[07:11] <desrt> Burgundavia; hal extension
[07:11] <desrt> Burgundavia; hal is a bloody mess right now.  davidz told me to stay away :)
[07:11] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:11] <desrt> Burgundavia; but he's going to merge it into CVS once he gets it back under control
[07:11] <Burgundavia> lots of little ifdefs for specific hardware?
[07:11] <desrt> no.  structurally messy
[07:11] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:11] <desrt> and not generally working from the sounds of it
[07:11] <Burgundavia> that being fixed?
[07:11] <desrt> i hope so :)
[07:19] <desrt> muh
[07:19] <desrt> g-p-m is giving me grief
[07:20] <desrt> now i have to patch the kernel
[07:20] <desrt> what a riot that will be.
[07:42] <jdub> whiprush_: pong
[07:45] <whiprush_> jdub: is it my feed that's busted or planet? I wanted to inline some pics from our release party.
[07:47] <jdub> whiprush_: i am going to ahve to look into it more deeply; it was okay for a bit, now it's back to poo
[07:47] <whiprush_> yeah
[07:47] <whiprush_> no problem, I just made a link.
[07:49] <ajmitch> morning fabbione 
[07:49] <fabbione> morning
[11:53] <ploum> Hello,
[11:53] <ploum> I've heard that canonical will soon need to hire a lot of people
[11:53] <ploum> But I don't see anything new on the Ubuntu jobs page
[11:53] <ploum> anyone has informations ?
[11:54] <sivang> ploum: where did you hear this? :)
[11:54] <ploum> sivang: on planet.ubuntu probably
[11:54] <ploum> cannot well remember
[11:56] <ploum> But a few days ago, it crosses my mind that I will need a job in september. And why not trying to live from my passion ?
[11:56] <sivang> planet , even
[11:57] <ploum> I remember somthing like "24 new open positions"
[11:57] <ploum> Hope that it wasn't a dream
[11:58] <ploum> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/35
[11:58] <G0SUB> ploum: I like your humorous posts
[11:58] <ploum> G0SUB: thanks :-)
[11:59] <ploum> it's new to me to make this kind of posts in english
[12:00] <G0SUB> ploum: I see, but you doing very well
[12:00] <G0SUB> you are
[12:01] <ploum> Don't say too much or everyone will understand that I'm paying you
[12:02] <G0SUB> ploum: heh, nothing like that
[12:02] <ploum> ;-)
[12:02] <G0SUB> ploum: you are our very own jester ... the jester in the court of sabdfl
[12:03] <ploum> hmm... don't know if it's good or bad ...
[12:03] <G0SUB> ploum: not bad really :)
[12:07] <sivang> jester?
[12:07] <sivang> ploum: what kind of post?
[12:08] <ploum> sivang: like my last post about flying cars.
[12:08] <G0SUB> sivang: most of his posts are funny
[12:10] <sivang> ah, cool
[12:16] <hunger> When will the edgy repositories open?
[12:17] <G0SUB> hunger: 06 June - 07 June
[12:17] <Fujitsu> hunger, I believe it's a couple of days of.
[12:17] <Fujitsu> Yes, what G0SUB said.
[12:18] <hunger> Great. I just hope that somebody will fix suspend for my laptop there soon:-(
[12:19] <Fjodor> G0SUB: I heard that kernel 2.6.16 breaks dapper's udev. Would that also be true of the kernels for edgy? When I was on breezy, I used dapper kernels, and would like to do the same with dapper/edgy
[12:20] <G0SUB> Fjodor: some fix will be found out :)
[12:20] <Fjodor> G0SUB: Great. I'll look forward to it :-)
[12:22] <gouchi> hi
[12:22] <gouchi> is there some stat about network activity of mirrors ?
[12:25] <HiddenWolf> gouchi: I don't think so, but my torrent is not seeding at max capacity anymore, so downloading is fast enough
[12:27] <hile> Fjodor: wel I'm using 2.6.16.19 and I haven't seen any udev problems
[12:28] <hile> I just took the vanilla source package, copied dapper's default config from /boot and built a package with make-kpkg - no problems at all
[12:28] <Fjodor> hile: Thanks for the info. I do like to have ubuntu kernels, though, so I'll wait for edgy, but thanks
[12:30] <hile> yeah, the reason I wanted 2.6.16 originally was CONFIG_SERIAL_8250_RUNTIME_UARTS - now it seems it's not even needed, since we have CONFIG_SERIAL_8250_NR_UARTS=48 in default kernel
[12:32] <Fjodor> hile: Ah :-)
[12:32] <hile> well, in addition I'm using madwifi-ng... could of course use standard packages as well but since I already have 2.6.16 configured ... 
[12:33] <Fjodor> hile: Yeah, I use madwifi-ng too. I build my own kernels, but as stated before, preferably from ubuntu sources (might have stated it a bit unclear earlier)
[12:35] <G0SUB> Fjodor: I don't know how 2.6.16 breaks udev, I am on 2.6.16-ck11 and my custom config
[12:35] <Fjodor> G0SUB: Fair enough. I might have been misinformed
[12:36] <G0SUB> Fjodor: I would recommend that you GOOG a bit and try out yourself
[12:36] <Fjodor> G0SUB: Ok. And thanks
[12:37] <G0SUB> Fjodor: you can take my config but it's very lean
[12:38] <Fjodor> G0SUB: Well, I don't need anything in particular, just want to have fairly new kernels as a principle ;-) Perhaps I should just let it rest for now, and get on with my exams :-) But thanks for offering
[12:39] <G0SUB> Fjodor: same here, I don't remember when I was the last time that I used a distro kernel
[12:40] <G0SUB> agh
[12:40] <Fjodor> Well, I mainly like ubuntu kernels because they let me suspend my laptop. I heard it could be a prob otherwise
[01:02] <ploum_> Is seb128 already gone ?
[01:03] <HiddenWolf> he should be, if he knows what's good for him. :)
[01:10] <ploum_> anybody knows who is hidden behind hr@canonical ?
[01:22] <lifeless> ploum_: people
[01:23] <ploum_> lifeless: I will send my CV to them.. Have you any advice for me ?
[01:24] <lifeless> all the general applying-for-job-advce
[01:25] <ploum_> nothing special then..
[01:25] <ploum_> well, so I just have to hit "send"
[01:45] <LinuxJones> ploum_, janew
[01:45] <ploum_> Thanks 
[01:48] <HiddenWolf> wow, ubuntu.com looks different
[01:49] <HiddenWolf> sweet!
[02:23] <makko> INSTALLER CRASHED :((
[02:23] <makko> http://pastebin.com/755357
[02:23] <makko> please help me
[02:23] <makko> is it a known issue?
[02:24] <\sh> makko: file a bug pls...and tell us where it crashed..
[02:25] <Fujitsu> makko, file a bug. It's the easiest way to get it fixed.
[02:25] <makko> \sh: anyway, how relevant is my pastebin quote?
[02:25] <Fujitsu> makko, please include /var/log/syslog and /var/log/installer/syslog as well.
[02:25] <\sh> makko: without a context? I can only determine that it's kde-ui :)
[02:26] <makko> \sh: oh, i see
[02:26] <\sh> makko: so you need to give us a hint where and when it happened (locale selection, partitioning etc.) something like this, and better a procedure how to reproduce it
[02:27] <makko> all default, except i also passed through manual partitioning (where i left everything default too)
[02:29] <makko> what is the gnome alternative to kde-ui?
[02:29] <makko> gnome-ui?
[02:29] <makko> (gnome-ui doesn't work)
[02:30] <\sh> makko: on kubuntu desktop cd you will have ubiquity with kde-ui and on ubuntu desktop cd the gnome ui...
[02:30] <makko> how can i use ubiquity with gnome ui when i am on kubuntu?
[02:30] <Fujitsu> gtk-ui, I think.
[02:30] <Fujitsu> makko, it's not a UI issue.
[02:31] <Fujitsu> makko, it's an internal issue. Please file a bug.
[02:33] <makko> Fujitsu: i am on a live cd session right now and i already erased my old ubuntu... all i have is the home partition
[02:33] <makko> Fujitsu: i don't even feel like filing bugs atm
[02:33] <Fujitsu> makko, that's the only way you're going to get it fixed.
[02:33] <makko> Fujitsu: but i will certainly do that later
[02:34] <makko> Fujitsu: and btw how can i make sure somebody else hasn't already done it?
[02:34] <Fujitsu> makko, anything special about your setup?
[02:34] <makko> Fujitsu: no, really not
[02:34] <Fujitsu> makko, don't try. A lot look like duplicates, but aren't really.
[02:34] <makko> Fujitsu: kubuntu, almost everything default
[02:35] <makko> Fujitsu: but is ubiquity really so... unpredictable?
[02:35] <Fujitsu> Can you please pastebin your /var/log/syslog and /var/log/installer/syslog?
[02:35] <makko> Fujitsu: sure
[02:35] <Fujitsu> makko, it's buggy in some situations at the moment.
[02:35] <makko> Fujitsu: please wait
[02:35] <Fujitsu> I'll look at them and try to work out what's up.
[02:35] <makko> Fujitsu: thank you very much
[02:36] <makko> wow! all of it??
[02:36] <Fujitsu> Yes.
[02:36] <Fujitsu> Hi, voltage.
[02:39] <makko> Fujitsu: http://pastebin.com/755387 (installer)
[02:40] <Fujitsu> Thanks,.
[02:40] <makko> Fujitsu: i thank you!
[02:41] <makko> http://pastebin.com/755394 (general syslog)
[02:41] <makko> Fujitsu: http://pastebin.com/755394 (general syslog)
[02:42] <makko> Fujitsu: and... any first impressions?
[02:42] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[02:42] <Fujitsu> Did anything odd happen around language selection?
[02:42] <makko> Fujitsu: nothing at all
[02:43] <makko> Fujitsu: i chose american
[02:43] <Fujitsu> Hmm.
[02:43] <Fujitsu> There are some odd filesystem errors.
[02:43] <Fujitsu> And it eventually crashes when trying to create a directory that already exists.
[02:43] <makko> Fujitsu: any workaround?
[02:43] <makko> Fujitsu: i will delete it!
[02:43] <makko> Fujitsu: what is the dir?
[02:43] <Fujitsu> However, you'll have to wait for somebody more qualified than me to work out what the source of the problem is.
[02:43] <Fujitsu> makko, don't try.
[02:43] <makko> Fujitsu: then?
[02:44] <Fujitsu> makko, you'll probably break something else.
[02:44] <Fujitsu> Your best bet is to file a bug, unfortunately.
[02:44] <makko> Fujitsu: what is there more to be filed than the two files?
[02:45] <Fujitsu> Just attach those two to the bug report.
[02:45] <makko> Fujitsu: could you *please* do this for me?
[02:45] <makko> Fujitsu: i never filed bug reports
[02:45] <makko> Fujitsu: before
[02:46] <Fujitsu> OK.
[02:46] <Fujitsu> Can you just give me the output of `sudo fdisk -l'?
[02:47] <Fujitsu> Hi, ogra.
[02:47] <makko> Fujitsu: http://pastebin.com/755403
[02:47] <makko> Fujitsu: this is the output
[02:48] <Fujitsu> Thanks.
[02:48] <makko> Fujitsu: i know i have quite some partitions
[02:48] <makko> Fujitsu: i thank you
[02:48] <makko> Fujitsu: any one of them that looks strange?
[02:48] <Fujitsu> Not really.
[02:49] <makko> Fujitsu: do the logs specify which partition should be the problem?
[02:49] <Fujitsu> No, it just complains that one of them is a bit odd.
[02:50] <makko> Fujitsu: do it doesn't mention which one....
[02:50] <makko> Fujitsu: SO it doesn't mention which one....
[02:50] <makko> sorry
[02:50] <makko> ok
[02:50] <makko> Fujitsu: what else would be necessary?
[02:51] <Fujitsu> That should be enough.
[02:51] <makko> Fujitsu: how am i gonna take advantage of the fix?
[02:51] <Fujitsu> THat's a good question.
[02:51] <makko> Fujitsu: do i simply need to apt-get install ubiquity on the live cd before installing on the hdd?
[02:51] <Fujitsu> It might be an idea to get hold of the alternate CD for now.
[02:51] <Fujitsu> The alternate CD will let you install now, although it's text based.
[02:52] <ogra> guys, can you take that to #ubuntu please ?
[02:52] <makko> ogra: sorry
[03:01] <abattoir> Kamion: hello :) . I am working on the Kubuntu OEM Installer as part of SoC. I was asked to show you the spec.
[03:01] <abattoir> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-oem-installer
[03:12] <HiddenWolf> abattoir: as far as I know all developers are taking a few days off, or they should be :)
[03:14] <pygi> abattoir, that is supposed to  be approved by Monday ;)
[03:15] <\sh> paris is coming
[03:15] <\sh> (no not the paris hilton)
[03:15] <pygi> abattoir, looks great, congrats ;)
[03:16] <abattoir> pygi: good afternoon :)
[03:16] <pygi> abattoir, you too ;)
[03:16] <abattoir> pygi: thanks. :D 
[03:16] <abattoir> nah, its late evening here 
[03:16] <abattoir> ;) 
[03:17] <pygi> ok, good evenin' ;)
[03:17] <abattoir> lol, thanks
[03:17] <pygi> "Make Image" would be what?
[03:17] <pygi> A backup? :)
[03:17] <abattoir> HiddenWolf: oh, i didnt know that.... they deserve it too...
[03:18] <abattoir> pygi: creation of a hard disk image
[03:18] <pygi> abattoir, for that you might be able to use HUB ;)
[03:18] <abattoir> this would then be replicated on N no. of hard disks
[03:19] <abattoir> pygi: heh, i am not sure that application is needed, that's why i need to ask Kamion.
[03:19] <abattoir> pygi: thanks for the suggestion, i'll look into it :)
[03:19] <abattoir> pygi: and are you not taking a break? ;) 
[03:19] <\sh> abattoir: for mass installation? 
[03:20] <pygi> abattoir, who gives me any kind of break? :P
[03:20] <abattoir> \sh: yes
[03:20] <abattoir> pygi: you should take it yourself :D 
[03:20] <\sh> abattoir: better to do it with kickstart or fai ;)
[03:20] <pygi> abattoir, it's not really needed as part of OEM installation, tho
[03:20] <pygi> abattoir, heh
[03:22] <\sh> abattoir: use kickstart first, that's easier...and FAI http://www.informatik.uni-koeln.de/fai/
[03:22] <abattoir> pygi: yes, i know, but it would simplify the process wouldnt it? if i have the time
[03:22] <abattoir> \sh: thanks :) 
[03:22] <\sh> abattoir: fai is more datacenter mass installation...kickstart is more redhat style ;)
[03:23] <pygi> \sh: o joy, redhat :P
[03:23] <abattoir> \sh: oh, ok, thanks again :) 
[03:23] <LinuxJones>  \sh for mass installation/software upgrades system installation suite is the way to go :)
[03:24] <\sh> pygi: i think whiprush_ was doing a presentation of mass ubuntu desktop roll outs and kickstart..
[03:24] <\sh> LinuxJones: that's what I'm doing with fai
[03:25] <LinuxJones> \sh, oh let me have a look
[03:25] <\sh> LinuxJones: one machine in less then 60 seconds (debian, ubuntu or suse) and later doing the company application configuration via cfengine...works very good...
[03:28] <\sh> bah...it's 15:28 already and I need to go shopping .. bbl in 2
[03:30] <LinuxJones> \sh, 60 seconds ?
[03:30] <jpatrick> LinuxJones: too late
[03:31] <LinuxJones> :(
[03:39] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48212 in ltsp "ltsp's dhcpd fails after server is hibernated" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48212
[03:41] <StevenK> ogra: Reply back with "Intended behaviour." ? :-)
[03:42] <StevenK> Actually, it seems to be a real bug.
[03:42] <ogra> StevenK, well, its one line in the acpi scripts 
[03:42] <ogra> to make it shut down and start up again, but i'd never ever have remotely thought of such a case :)
[03:43] <StevenK> ogra: Meh. That's what users are for. :-)
[03:43] <ajmitch> users can be very creative
[03:43] <ogra> yeah ;)
[03:44] <highvoltage> ogra: i don't understand what's funny about that bug :(
[03:45] <highvoltage> ogra: is dhcpd supposed to stop working after coming out of hibernation?
[03:45] <StevenK> Apparently.
[03:45] <StevenK> dhcpd is well, crap to say the least.
[03:45] <highvoltage> heh.
[03:45] <ogra> highvoltage, well, its a server, i wouldnt expect anybody to hibernate servers :) 
[03:46] <ogra> but its easily solved by adding dhcp to the acpi scripts that shut down services
[03:46] <highvoltage> ogra: yes, i can see why that part is funny. it would be even more funny if the user complained that dhcpd didn't work while the server was hibernated :)
[03:46] <ogra> heh#
[03:47] <StevenK> highvoltage: That was what I thought when I saw the subject line. :-)
[03:47] <ogra> indeed its a bug and needs fixing
[03:47] <StevenK> Hence my comment: [23:41]  < StevenK> ogra: Reply back with "Intended behaviour." ? :-)
[03:47] <ajmitch> ogra: maybe the server hibernates at night :)
[03:47] <ajmitch> they have to have their rest sometime
[03:47] <ogra> heh
[03:48] <StevenK> No hibernating for them.
[03:48] <bddebian> Howdy
[03:48] <ajmitch> hello bddebian 
[03:49] <ajmitch> StevenK: I don't even let my laptop sleep
[03:49] <bddebian> Hi ajmitch
[03:49] <StevenK> If they start pandering for equal rights, I'll consider it.
[03:51] <StevenK> ajmitch: I find waking up my laptop from hibernating is quicker.
[03:52] <StevenK> ajmitch: Also, my previous laptop wouldn't hibernate in Linux, so I like it.
[03:52] <StevenK> Some desktops can hibernate.
[03:53] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: why not?
[03:53] <Hobbsee> good point.  again, why?
[03:53] <ajmitch> development work :)
[03:53] <StevenK> If it breaks, you have a screen and keyboard right there.
[03:53] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: well, if you're never going to turn it off, then why have it being portable and relying on batteries?  servers dont usually move, i thought!
[03:53] <ajmitch> StevenK: I just leave my laptop running anyway
[03:53] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: because I can drag my laptop closer to the heater
[03:53] <StevenK> Heh
[03:53] <Hobbsee> hehe.  i forgot about that.
[03:54] <highvoltage> Hobbsee is s 'her'? /me didn't realise :)
[03:54] <StevenK> Aww
[03:54] <Hobbsee> highvoltage: quite possibly.
[03:54] <ajmitch> highvoltage: yes, we have some of their kind around
[03:54] <StevenK> Heh
[03:54] <highvoltage> yeah, i'm hoping it links to a blog or web page or something
[03:55] <ogra> Hobbsee, edubuntu ltsp servers are a bit different, you use them in a classroom and hibernating might be faster than shutting them down
[03:55] <StevenK> It's nice to hope.
[03:55] <Hobbsee> ogra: ahh...i see....
[03:55] <StevenK> It just may not work.
[03:56] <ogra> Hobbsee, why all this shyness ? you should push ubuntu-women :)
[03:56] <Hobbsee> ogra: you *really* want me to answer that?
[03:57] <ajmitch> ogra: have you seen what -motu goes like at times?
[03:57] <ogra> ajmitch, i didnt follow -motu much recently
[03:57] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:59] <Hobbsee> ogra: well, let me put it this way.  If a girl walks into a room containing a whole group of males, what's the first thing that the males think and/or do?
[03:59] <StevenK> Hobbsee: "Where's the beer?"
[03:59] <ajmitch> s/males/sad, desperate male geeks/
[03:59] <StevenK> Hah
[03:59] <Hobbsee> heh
[03:59] <ogra> well, at least i'd expect them to respect the CoC :)
[04:00] <ogra> (in an ubuntu channel)
[04:00] <Hobbsee> well...yeah...true...
[04:01] <ogra> we have some females in #edubuntu and i'd kick guys that behave overly chauvinistic ( highvoltage as well i'm sure) :)
[04:01] <Hobbsee> true
[04:02] <KaiL_> Hobbsee, ask, is this girl is really a girl and after that, if she looks good? ;)
[04:02] <Hobbsee> most of the guys are decent - but there some who are just disturbing - which is why i tend to be pretty quiet about my gender.  and age, come to think of it
[04:02] <highvoltage> yes, i'll punch them, hit them, throw them off a cliff, electricute them... survivors will be kicked
[04:02] <Hobbsee> hehe
[04:02] <Hobbsee> KaiL_: hehe!
[04:03] <HiddenWolf> highvoltage: I doubt that is CoC-approved behavior
[04:03] <HiddenWolf> highvoltage: ;)
[04:03] <highvoltage> HiddenWolf: i'll do it out of ubuntu ;)
[04:04] <StevenK> I don't remember the CoC mentioning that throwing off a cliff is not allowed.
[04:04] <highvoltage> "shall we take this outside of this room?" :)
[04:04] <ogra> lol
[04:04] <zul> StevenK,: you missed the super secret one
[04:04] <Hobbsee> rofl!
[04:04] <ogra> better "lest take it to #ubuntu-beatup"
[04:04] <StevenK> highvoltage has this simplified, and has his lounge room facing onto a cliff.
[04:05] <StevenK> "Come inside, and tell me your views on ..." *wait* *throw*
[04:05] <highvoltage> StevenK: and, when they fall off the cliff, they fall into a pool, conveniently next to industrial toasters (plugged in of course)
[04:05] <Hobbsee> ah, thanks guys for giving me a laugh.  i needed that.
[04:10] <highvoltage> goodnight StevenK 
[04:11] <Hobbsee> night StevenK 
[04:11] <Hobbsee> so does that mean that throwing people off a cliff is CoC approved behaviour?
[04:12] <ajmitch> undecided
[04:12] <ajmitch> bring it up at a CC meeting
[04:12] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: i think if you're not wearing your ubuntu shirt, it's outside of their jurisdiction (sp?)
[04:12] <ogra> its not literally forbidden in the text
[04:12] <highvoltage> we can file it under 'correctional behaviour'
[04:13] <highvoltage> sorry if that doesn't make sense. my engrish is just gone today.
[04:13] <Hobbsee> hehe!
[04:14] <Hobbsee> ogra: can i quote you on that?
[04:14] <Hobbsee> :P
[04:14] <ogra> sure, its true, isnt it ? 
[04:14] <Hobbsee> :D
[04:15] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: now, he didn't say that either ;)
[04:15] <ogra> i didnt say that :)
[04:15] <Hobbsee> well...
[04:15] <Hobbsee> close enough :P
[04:16] <Hobbsee> you inferred it...
[04:16] <spacey> i think throwing people off cliffs is already covered by law
[04:16] <ogra> well, might depend on the country :)
[04:17] <spacey> in the netherlands we don't have cliffs
[04:17] <spacey> i know
[04:17] <Hobbsee> hehe
[04:18] <spacey> ogra: :p
[04:18] <HiddenWolf> ogra: next time you get to rotterdam, allow me to buy you a beer. :)
[04:19] <ogra> sure :) but the last time i was there is ~20 yrs ago
[04:19] <HiddenWolf> oh, i'll have time to save up for the beer. :)
[04:19] <ogra> so it might still take some time ...
[04:20] <ajmitch> night all
[04:20] <bddebian> Night ajmitch
[04:21] <ogra> ciao ajmitch 
[04:23] <Hobbsee> night ajmitch 
[04:26] <eXistenZ> There is a bug in ubuntu dapper which hasn't been fixed from the beta
[04:26] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: which one?
[04:27] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, The cups one
[04:27] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, I pasted the problem, let me give you the link
[04:27] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: what's the bug id?
[04:27] <sivang> ohm this became a bit noisy now :)
[04:27] <sivang> what caused all the awakening ? :)
[04:28] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/48173
[04:28] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48173 in Ubuntu "I keep getting that error in the cups error_log. There is something wrong." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
[04:28] <Hobbsee> sivang: i'm not sure...i think there was an impromptu irc post-release party or something :P
[04:28] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=160041&highlight=foomatic-rip+status  , same problem here. 
[04:28] <bddebian> heh
[04:28] <Hobbsee> sivang: team building, i believe it's called :P
[04:29] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: does the printing work or does that fail too?
[04:29] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, It doesn't print at all
[04:29] <sivang> Hobbsee: nice :)
[04:30] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, It stops
[04:30] <sivang> I just logged into the channel 2 hours ego and it was silent 
[04:30] <G0SUB> strange
[04:30] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, it says "Printing: /usr/lib/cups/filter/foomatic-rip failed"
[04:30] <Hobbsee> sivang: yes, it seems that way - must be while there's no development going on.  pity.  mind you, this is kinda fun :)
[04:30] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, same error here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=165993&highlight=foomatic-rip+status
[04:31] <sivang> Hobbsee: hehe, Well, I'm not totally against off development chatter, if it has some developmental value :-)
[04:31] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, In short, I've seen many posts about users complaining about this problem
[04:31] <KaiL_> ubuntu-server fr Sparc not yet released?
[04:32] <Hobbsee> sivang: ah yes.  and some people are good at rubbishing, to twist things into what they want them to say :P
[04:32] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: this bug got overlooked probably because of its unconfirmed status
[04:32] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, seemingly
[04:32] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, I have to go to windows everytime I want to print something. This is breaking down my nerves ;-)
[04:33] <ogra> well, given the fact that it was filed today, its hard to fix it before release
[04:34] <eXistenZ> ogra, I've seen many bugs for this problem
[04:34] <eXistenZ> ogra, all unconfirmed
[04:34] <eXistenZ> ogra, let me give you some links
[04:34] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: why did you file it again then?
[04:34] <giftnudel>  make a list of those and we will mark them duplicates then
[04:35] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, Just now I figured out that it was posted many times
[04:35] <KaiL_> btw. there was somebigger rant about cups on ubuntu on pro-linux.de - ogra do you know something about that? ;)
[04:35] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: hmm
[04:35] <Hobbsee> KaiL_: there was in #kubuntu earlier
[04:35] <Hobbsee> too
[04:35] <ogra> KaiL_, i dont read pro-linux.de
[04:36] <KaiL_> you didn't miss that much ;)
[04:36] <ogra> (in fact i dont have much time to read any online news anymore since my workplace is the net)
[04:37] <KaiL_> http://www.pro-linux.de/cgi-bin/NB2/nb2.cgi?send-edit.9774.3010.80000010044. - maybe you understand, what he wants?
[04:40] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, Do you think this bug will be fixed?
[04:41] <ogra> KaiL_, thats a pretty random rant
[04:41] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: provided the developers notice it
[04:41] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, Aren't you a developer
[04:42] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: not that package
[04:42] <ogra> KaiL_, he obviously doesnt understand/know our security concept of "no open ports by default"
[04:42] <G0SUB> eXistenZ: i don;t even have a printer to test it
[04:42] <Hobbsee> ack.  it's german.  i wonder if that was the same guy from earlier.
[04:43] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, look at this post, all have the same problem: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=64876&highlight=foomatic-rip
[04:44] <G0SUB> hmm
[04:44] <Hobbsee> sounds like it.  ugh. poor Ivoks got the blame from that.
[04:47] <makko> what about the bugfixes for the desktop cd?
[04:48] <makko> will there a new dapper desktop cd be released at a latter time?
[05:00] <eXistenZ> G0SUB, It has been confirmed: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/45099
[05:00] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 45099 in cupsys "client 1.2.0 to 1.1.2x server over IPP: cupsdAuthorize: Local authentication certificate not found" [Normal,Needs info]  
[06:24] <shawarma> Let me just get this straight. In order to suggest something for discussion at the dev summit, I add the spec to some meeting... Which meeting? The only thing on the list that even vaguely makes sense is UBZ..
[06:25] <highvoltage> shawarma: where are you looking?
[06:25] <shawarma> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easyvpn/+linksprint
[06:28] <shawarma> highvoltage: I created the Wiki page, the spec and now I want to add it to the meeting. Am I missing a step somewhere?
[06:28] <shawarma> I don't see the summit at https://launchpad.net/sprints either..
[06:42] <highvoltage> shawarma: i'm not sure. i thought all we needed to do was create the spec in launchpad
[06:52] <robitaille> pitti:  do you have a rough estimate of when the updates from firefox 1.5.0.4  will make it into dapper?
[06:52] <pitti> robitaille: early next week, I think
[06:52] <robitaille> ok, thanks
[07:03] <bluefoxicy> ah shit
[07:03] <bluefoxicy> I posted on the devel list with a major error  *o.o*
[07:03] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  hi!
[07:07] <\sh> whiprush_: ping
[08:34] <HiddenWolf> does anyone have an idea about server load for the download sites?
[08:45] <ogra> HiddenWolf, maswan has stats
[08:47] <HiddenWolf> ogra: Just interested. I uploaded 20gb from my desktop since release
[08:49] <maswan> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/ <- se.releases
[08:51] <HiddenWolf> maswan: nice spike you've got there. :)
[08:51] <maswan> HiddenWolf: Yeah, too bad we don't have more bandwidth. Next year perhaps. :)
[08:51] <HiddenWolf> *cough* I'm seeing almost 600mbit/s
[08:53] <HiddenWolf> maswan: you feel you need more? :)
[08:53] <infinity> Hrm, that spike was a bit short-lived.  That's a bit disappointing.
[08:53] <HiddenWolf> infinity: well, a lot of mirrors came online since breezy
[08:53] <infinity> I guess after the initial "oo, it's out!" from the fanboys, interest wanes.
[08:53] <maswan> infinity: It always drops in the evening
[08:54] <maswan> Same for hoary, sarge and breezy
[08:55] <infinity> Also, test0 needs a better name.
[08:55] <maswan> infinity: It is a temporary machine loaned from work to serve a couple of isos out of ram.
[08:55] <maswan> infinity: On wednesday we turn it off and return it.
[08:55] <infinity> What, you mean you're not serving all of releases.u.c out of RAM on all the machines?  Pshaw.
[08:56] <infinity> And I thought you had mad hardware hookups.
[08:56] <HiddenWolf> heh
[08:56] <maswan> No, and unfortunately we were a bit tight on time to try our new setup out, so yesterday we redid it. That's why we had to borrow the machine.
[08:57] <HiddenWolf> I'm only pushing 100kb/s on the torrent here. I should be upping 120. :)
[08:57] <maswan> We're not even at half a gigE now.
[08:58] <infinity> I should probably be a good citizen and seed the desktop-i386 torrent for the good of all Australians, but I value my latency too much.
[08:58] <ajmitch> there are probably enough seeding that one
[08:58] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: I'm still upping at my max, or close to my maximum. ;)
[08:59] <infinity> ajmitch: Define "enough"... Not many users in .au have >= 1Mbit upstream, so every bit's helpful.
[08:59] <infinity> ajmitch: Grabbing from a bunch of overloaded 256k Telstra users could be painful.
[08:59] <ajmitch> true
[09:00] <ajmitch> having only a 20GB data cap means that I can't leave it running for long, sadly
[09:00] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: ouch. :)
[09:00] <ajmitch> yeah
[09:00] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: is that in our out?
[09:00] <infinity> ajmitch: I'm only capped on download, not upload.  Their loss is my gain, I guess.
[09:00] <ajmitch> 20GB for both
[09:00] <ajmitch> as in, combined
[09:01] <infinity> ajmitch: So, I'm okay to run webservers and stuff, but my pr0n downloading is limited.  Weird, I know.
[09:01] <ajmitch> heh
[09:01] <jdub> meanwhile
[09:01] <jdub> what are you guys doing up?
[09:01] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: ouch. I'd be over that data limit already. 
[09:01] <infinity> I guess the answer is to start hosting pr0n...
[09:01] <infinity> jdub: Pot.  Kettle.
[09:01] <ajmitch> jdub: I ask myself that same question
[09:01] <jdub> infinity: then you can buy more downstream!
[09:01] <HiddenWolf> jdub: not everyone is an aussie you know. ;)
[09:01] <infinity> jdub: Or are you in the UK?
[09:02] <jdub> nono, here at home
[09:02] <HiddenWolf> jdub: we just want to be. ;)
[09:02] <infinity> jdub: Right, then.  "What are you doing up?"
[09:02] <jdub> though it was londonny on friday
[09:02] <ajmitch> HiddenWolf: speak for yourself
[09:02] <maswan> I had a 1 gig/day data cap on 100Mbit. That was kind of painful to run torrents on. :)
[09:02] <jdub> JNST is a bit weird at the moment. i slept almost all day yesterday.
[09:02] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: the cute accent, sunny tan and the resistance to huge amounts of alcohol don't appeal to you? :)
[09:02] <maswan> At home that is, not at the university
[09:03] <infinity> maswan: Oh, that's just teasing.  "have a bunch of bandwidth that you CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH"
[09:03] <jdub> maswan: how's the mirror doing?
[09:03] <ajmitch> HiddenWolf: I'm not allowed to like australia, I'm a kiwi
[09:03] <maswan> jdub: Getting bored. :)
[09:03] <maswan> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/
[09:03] <maswan> We're not even hitting half the bandwidth we did thurs+fri
[09:03] <HiddenWolf> ajmitch: good point. :)
[09:04] <jdub> maswan: nice spike though
[09:04] <maswan> jdub: yeah
[09:04] <maswan> http://farbror.acc.umu.se/stats/monitordata/index.shtml
[09:04] <jdub> fc4 was october?
[09:04] <maswan> that's the coolest spike
[09:04] <infinity> ajmitch: Anyone who can't correctly pronounce "fish and chips" can't poke fun at others.
[09:04] <maswan> jdub: breezy!
[09:04] <jdub> s/fc4/fc5/
[09:04] <jdub> maswan: oh
[09:04] <ajmitch> infinity: exactly, so the aussies shouldn't make fun of us
[09:05] <jdub> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/img/Year.800.png
[09:05] <jdub> ^ that one
[09:05] <maswan> jdub: the one before is sarge, and then you can barely make out hoary on the "years"
[09:05] <infinity> ajmitch: *splutter*
[09:05] <infinity> ajmitch: Damnit, there's no "U" in "fish".
[09:06] <jdub> fc5 was march
[09:06] <jdub> mot much of a dent in your mirror
[09:06] <ajmitch> you would have liked the GNOME tshirts for LCA this year
[09:06] <maswan> jdub: We don't mirror it. :)
[09:06] <jdub> ;)
[09:07] <maswan> ubuntu, debian, mozilla, gnome
[09:07] <jdub> you guys are All Class
[09:07] <infinity> maswan: No kernel.org mirror?
[09:07] <maswan> infinity: nah, ftp.du.se has one that's fast enough
[09:07] <maswan> infinity: also within sunet (the swedish NREN)
[09:08] <infinity> Ahh.
[09:08] <infinity> I still remember back when I had enough disk space (and kernel.org was small enough) that I could mirror it at home.
[09:08] <infinity> Good times, good times.
[09:09] <infinity> Actually, I probably have enough space now, but not enough bandwidth to make it worthwhile anymore.
[09:09] <jdub> WELCOME TO AUSTRALIA
[09:09] <infinity> :/
[09:09] <jdub> yeah 
[09:09] <maswan> You guys should import some swedish or dutch bandwidth
[09:09] <jdub> were you here when the southern cross line was cut?
[09:09] <jdub> maswan: it tastes funny
[09:10] <infinity> jdub: When was that?
[09:10] <ProN00b> hmm, can't you add something to auto detect dualscreens ?
[09:10] <infinity> jdub: It may have been when I was in Cairns, dunno.
[09:10] <jdub> infinity: hrm, a few years back.., i forget now!
[09:10] <jdub> infinity: if it weren't so sad, it would have been funny;
[09:10] <infinity> jdub: I've lived through enough bandwidth pain here to make it a major motivation for wanting to move back home.
[09:10] <jdub> someone anchored through it or something
[09:11] <jdub> and pretty much the entire country noticed
[09:11] <jdub> "millions of voices all crying out at once"
[09:11] <jdub> but, not just the geeks that time
[09:11] <jdub> "is the internet slow today?" -> secretaries and so on
[09:11] <infinity> No, everyone would notice as traffic was diverted and bounced off sattellites.
[09:11] <jdub> infinity: what brought you / keeps you here?
[09:11] <infinity> And latency went through the roof.
[09:12] <infinity> jdub: Girl.  Is there ever any other reason for doing something silly like leaving cheap electronics and plentiful bandwidth behind?
[09:12] <infinity> And snow.  God, I miss snow.
[09:12] <jdub> no, and stop calling me girl!
[09:12] <highvoltage> jdub: hey babe
[09:12] <jdub> lucky i was kicking instead of slapping
[09:13] <jdub> *thump*
[09:13] <infinity> jdub: So, how often do you get called "Jeff Woff"?
[09:14] <jdub> rarely these days
[09:14] <infinity> I'll be sure to do it the next time I see you.
[09:14] <infinity> All those silent letters at the end of your name offend me.
[09:14] <jdub> i still get "wow" and "wog" sometimes
[09:15] <jdub> it's often worth paying sharp attention to announcements at foreign airports
[09:15] <ajmitch> those people obviously don't follow cricket
[09:15] <jdub> one person still calls me jeff weff
[09:15] <maswan> people follow cricket?
[09:15] <infinity> maswan: My thoughts exactly.
[09:15] <ajmitch> it's been known to happen
[09:15] <infinity> People only foloow cricket when they're no good at any real sports.
[09:16] <mdke> !!
[09:16] <maswan> Sure those weren't englishmen? They can make for a pretty convincing people-imitation at times.
[09:16] <mdke> yeah
[09:16] <highvoltage> jdub: are you related to the cricket player? you know that south africans don't quite like him? :)
[09:17] <jdub> highvoltage: not related, no
[09:17] <jdub> infinity: 20/20 seemed pretty good
[09:37] <mdke> anyone know anything about fonts?
[09:38] <mdke> I'm trying to find the file that provides the OpenSymbol font
[09:39] <_ion> luotain% dpkg -L ttf-opensymbol | grep '\.ttf$'
[09:39] <_ion> /usr/share/fonts/truetype/openoffice/opens___.ttf
[09:40] <mdke> wow that's clever, thanks _ion 
[09:40] <mdke> _ion: can you do dingbats too?
[09:45] <jelkner> is there a font file that will always be on a dapper installation?
[09:45] <_ion> mdke: luotain% grep -i dingbat /usr/share/fonts/**/*.cache*
[09:45] <_ion> /usr/share/fonts/type1/gsfonts/fonts.cache-1:"d050000l.pfb" 0 "Dingbats:style=Regular:slant=0:weight=80:width=100:foundry=urw:index=0:outline=True:scalable=True:charset=  !!!!#      !!#3H    !(Uc[   !!#>K   !!!1%    !!#AL     (1S};!2fYk !!#DM>0}v}  !!!#9    !!#GN|>] fO|>^+~Ow1gH|>^0~{~h@FP0fQP  :lang=:fontversion=0:fontformat=Type 1"
[09:46] <jelkner> _ion: were you answering my question on a know font?
[09:46] <_ion> jelkner: No.
[09:47] <jelkner> thanks
[09:47] <mdke> thanks _ion 
[09:48] <jelkner> we are trying to work around a bug in pygame involving fonts
[09:48] <_ion> jelkner: Dapper might be installed without any fonts except for the ones you see in the Linux console.
[09:49] <jelkner> _ion: which ones are in the Linux console?
[09:49] <jelkner> we only need 1 known font
[09:49] <_ion> jelkner: The ones that come from the BIOS or something. :-)
[09:50] <jelkner> what if we assume x (pygame won't run without it)
[09:50] <jelkner> but i want it to work on xubuntu, ubuntu, kubuntu
[09:52] <highvoltage> bitstream vera sans is generally a safe bet with xubuntu/kubuntu/ubuntu/edubuntu
[09:53] <_ion> jelkner: Well, apt-cache depends x-window-system-core | grep font  but the user might not have even x-window-system-core installed on a barebones installation with X. Why not simply add a dependency to some font to the games or perhaps pygame?
[09:55] <jelkner> _ion: thanks, that's a grand idea ;-)
[10:06] <HiddenWolf> dear god, it seems google loves python. :)
[10:07] <HiddenWolf> 25 projects for SoC under python software foundation, only three for perl.
[10:07] <_ion> Someone sould tell Google about Ruby.
[10:15] <jdub> jelkner: look at the DejaVu fonts, they're in all three
[10:18] <jelkner> jdub: thanks!
[10:25] <mgalvin> there have been some dapper-updates uploads, is there a reason they have not hit the archive yet (or is it just me?)?
[10:26] <mdke> no, same here
[10:26] <infinity> Which ones haven't?
[10:26] <pygi> mdke, mgalvin, use archive.ubuntu.com
[10:26] <mgalvin> pygi, i am
[10:26] <pygi> mdke, perhaps sync to local servers has not been doen?
[10:26] <mdke> pygi: i am
[10:26] <pygi> done*
[10:26] <mgalvin> infinity, evince for example
[10:26] <pygi> hm :-/
[10:26] <infinity> I've certainly seen some.
[10:27] <mdke> none here, checked now
[10:28] <crimsun> pcmcia-cs, tetex-base at least are available in binary
[10:28] <mgalvin> hmm and deskbar, the source packages are in the archive just not the binaries
[10:28] <mgalvin> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/d/deskbar-applet/
[10:29] <infinity> Oh, SPECIAL.
[10:29] <infinity> Okay, it's a bug.  Thanks, guys.
[10:30] <infinity> Will sort.
[10:30] <roaet_> Anyone here have any luck getting dapper on a MacBook pro?
[10:30] <mgalvin> seems all of seb128's and dholbach's latest uploads from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-June/thread.html
[10:30] <mgalvin> infinity: cool thanks
[10:30] <crimsun> heh, I was thinking the archive guys needed to push some big red button{,s}
[10:31] <infinity> No big red buttons.  Just an overzealous REJECT policy, so the binaries are getting bounced.
[10:33] <infinity> Will be fixed by Monday, I'm sure.  Just need to raise a flag with the right people.
[10:34] <bddebian> NO, not the red button...
[10:38] <HiddenWolf> anything, anything but the red button? ;)
[10:42] <_lemsx1_> hello all
[10:43] <_lemsx1_> how do i get libgcc_s.so.1 to be included in /etc/ld.so.cache ? adding /lib to /etc/ld.so.conf used to do the trick before (sudo ldconfig afterwards)
[10:43] <_lemsx1_> i'm trying to solve:
[10:44] <_lemsx1_> $> libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work
[10:44] <_lemsx1_> (!) [10972:    0.000]  --> Caught signal 6 (unknown origin) <--
[10:45] <crimsun> hmm? it's required and installed by default in libgcc1
[10:45] <crimsun> libgcc1: /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
[10:46] <infinity> _lemsx1_: What problem are you seeing exactly?  libgcc_s.so.1 (when installed) is definitely in my /etc/ld.so.cache
[10:47] <_lemsx1_> infinity: the problem is that i have a program (splashy) that select()s a file handle waiting for it to change (same as usplash does)
[10:47] <_lemsx1_> infinity: if 2 min pass and no changes are done, i get that error i pasted above
[10:47] <_lemsx1_> crimsun: yes, i see the lib is in /lib in all my systems
[10:48] <_lemsx1_> infinity: no, lib/libgcc_... is not in ld.so.cache... try it: cat /etc/ld.so.cache | strings | grep libcc
[10:48] <_lemsx1_> $> echo $?
[10:48] <_lemsx1_> 1
[10:48] <infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ strings /etc/ld.so.cache | grep libgcc_s.so.1
[10:48] <infinity> libgcc_s.so.1
[10:48] <infinity> /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
[10:48] <infinity> I did that before I answered you, honest.
[10:48] <_lemsx1_> infinity: ahhh, so how do i get my ld.so.cache to include this?
[10:48] <infinity> And it doesn't need to be in ld.so.conf... /lib is in the default search path.
[10:49] <infinity> (The only thing in my ld.so.conf is /usr/X11R6/lib)
[10:49] <_lemsx1_> i changed /etc/ld.so.conf (created it since it doesn't exists!) and added /lib\n/usr/lib\n/usr/local/lib\n and ran ldconfig
[10:50] <crimsun> (those should all be in the default ld path)
[10:50] <_lemsx1_> infinity: so ldconfig should create ld.so.cache even if ld.so.conf is not there... but why none of my dapper systems have it? i have a new dapper install in vmware as well as 2 old installations
[10:51] <_lemsx1_> i just did the same grep command on the vmware installation i installed yesterday and ld.so.cache doesn't have libgcc
[10:51] <_lemsx1_> ah, sorry. that does have it
[10:51] <_lemsx1_> i mispelled it: libcc instead of libgcc
[10:52] <infinity> Now, if I had to guess, I'd say your real problem isn't the contents of ld.so.cache.
[10:52] <_lemsx1_> infinity: ummm... i agree
[10:52] <_lemsx1_> infinity: i hate these problems... they never end
[10:52] <infinity> Your real problem is that if splashy relies on libgcc_s.so.1, but doesn't link directlty to it (as most apps that use it don't), then it's not getting copied to the initramfs.
[10:52] <infinity> If it's not in the initramfs, splashy can't find it on boot.
[10:52] <infinity> This is my guess, anyway.
[10:53] <_lemsx1_> infinity: no, this is running from the system after boot (not initramfs)
[10:53] <infinity> Oh, if this isn't during boot, then... Hrm..
[10:53] <_lemsx1_> infinity: it only needs libgcc for pthread_cancel to work (usually at exit)
[10:53] <_lemsx1_> i googled it before and i get a post saying that libgcc_so wasn't in my ld path. i added it and it worked
[10:54] <_lemsx1_> there is no libgcc-dev package or anything... pthread is part of libc6 anyway
[10:55] <infinity> "libgcc-dev" is "gcc". :)
[10:56] <_lemsx1_> ummm but what does 'libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work' could mean then?
[10:56] <crimsun> I presume you have libgcc1 installed via gcc-4.0 ?
[10:56] <_lemsx1_> http://www.thedumbterminal.co.uk/php/knowledgebase/?action=view&id=42
[10:57] <_lemsx1_> crimsun: yes
[10:57] <_lemsx1_> $> dpkg -S /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
[10:57] <_lemsx1_> libgcc1: /lib/libgcc_s.so.1
[10:57] <_lemsx1_> ii  libgcc1        4.0.3-1ubuntu5 
[10:58] <_lemsx1_> same in the other systems
[10:58] <_lemsx1_> but that last post says the same. that LD_LIBRARY_PATH is screwed
[11:01] <_lemsx1_> ahhh, i see
[11:01] <_lemsx1_> gcc --print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1
[11:01] <_lemsx1_> /lib/../lib/libgcc_s.so.1
[11:01] <_lemsx1_> is that correct? why not /lib/libgcc_s.so.1 ?
[11:02] <crimsun> they're identical
[11:02] <_lemsx1_> yep.... 
[11:02] <_lemsx1_> head spinning here
[11:04] <_lemsx1_> the only thing that i can think of is that at some point an older version of gcc was installed and this file belong to that?
[11:04] <_lemsx1_> http://sources.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=439
[11:04] <Ubugtu> sourceware.org bug 439 in nptl "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work" [Minor,Resolved: invalid]  
[11:05] <bluefoxicy> libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for a lot of shit to work, it's kind of important.
[11:06] <_lemsx1_> lol
[11:10] <_lemsx1_> could it be because i'm launching the program using "sudo" the this being very picky about env vars?
[11:10] <_lemsx1_> using "sudo -i" instead
[11:12] <_lemsx1_> bah, same
[11:54] <desrt> is there a tutorial anywhere on how to read DSDT?
[11:56] <desrt> http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Fix_Common_ACPI_Problems
[11:56] <desrt> mm.  good starter.
[11:57] <infinity> http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/index.php may be useful as well.
[11:57] <desrt> 3. Error notes: File does not exist: /home/groups/a/ac/acpi/htdocs/dsdt/index.php
[11:57] <desrt> 4. Error type: 404
[11:57] <infinity> Seems to be 404 off an on.  Bad server in rotation, maybe.
[11:57] <desrt> http://acpi.sourceforge.net/dsdt/ works though
[11:58] <infinity> Refresh a few times and it comes back.
[11:58] <sladen> desrt: note though that you don't have to do any kernel patching
[11:58] <desrt> weird.  i keep getting different versions of the page :p
[11:58] <sladen> desrt: funky
[11:58] <desrt> sladen; i know.... our initramfs system allows us to provide custom DSDT's, right?
[11:58] <infinity> desrt: And yeah, no kernel patching.  Just toss the compiled DSDT in /etc/mkinitramfs/DSDT.aml
[12:01] <desrt> i don't suppose there's a decompiler for asl/aml
[12:02] <infinity> iasl -d
[12:02] <desrt> oh.  wicked.
[12:02] <desrt> iasl was used to build the DSDT on this box