[12:04] <LaserJock> hmm, well that was something I always wondered about, but it has been on the wiki page since I used it to make my first chroot
[12:04] <infinity> LaserJock: If you're doing something silly like installing sudo in your chroots... Don't... Use sudo outside the chroot. "sudo dchroot -c dapper"
[12:04] <LaserJock> oh for goodness sakes
[12:05] <LaserJock> now I'm all confused
[12:06] <enrico> Hi.  I have just deboostrapped a base dapper.  Is there a way to kick on the installer to have it finish the installation like it had been installed from the CD?
[12:06] <LaserJock> I mean I  see what your saying (sort of) but we really need to take a look at that wiki page then
[12:06] <infinity> Or, for extra fun user-switching hilarity "sudo dchroot -c dapper su - someotheruser"
[12:06] <sivang> what's the current ncurses way to dpkg-reconfigure loclaes?
[12:07] <sivang> (i.e. it doesn't offer you to add loclaes anymore)
[12:07] <infinity> sivang: Install a langpack, happens automatically.
[12:07] <sivang> uh-ha! thanks!
[12:09] <sivang> infinity: there a commmon script all langpacks use to do that?
[12:09] <infinity> LaserJock: jbailey's been hacking on a dchroot-manager tool.  I think I'll branch his bzr archive and stuff all my years of buildd and dchroot-admin knowlege into it, and maybe people can get more use out of that than a random wiki page.
[12:09] <infinity> sivang: /usr/share/locales/install-language-pack
[12:10] <infinity> sivang: See the postinst for any language-pack-??-base package.
[12:12] <sivang> infinity: yep , thanks, so now if I want to just add a local without having to install all the langpack data, I need to manually use /usr/sbin/locale-gen ?
[12:12] <LaserJock> infinity: yes, that would be good. My biggest problem isn't so much the wiki page but that I used the wiki page when I was writing the Packaging Guide
[12:13] <infinity> sivang: Yeah, though a locale with no data is mostly useless (except for the time and date formats and such, I guess)
[12:14] <sivang> infinity: yes, that waht I wanted to achive, thanks.
[12:17] <skingsley> I installed the new version today and its great.  I was wondering if there is a personal financial application package for ubuntu.
[12:18] <infinity> skingsley: -> #ubuntu
[12:18] <infinity> skingsley: This is not a support channel.
[12:32] <sivang> package, even
[12:37] <sivang> base
[12:39] <sivang> anyway, time to go to sleep
[12:39] <sivang> night all
[12:40] <sivang> infinity: don't stay up when you don't have to :)
[12:58] <sivang> are there any DC admins around?
[12:59] <infinity> sivang: What needs fixing?
[01:00] <sivang> infinity: I need to have a public ssh key added to humboldt so some people can upload stuff for me there... does that fall under your domain?
[01:01] <infinity> Since I don't even know what purpose humboldt serves, I'll go with "no".
[01:01] <sivang> infinity: okay, thanks anyway.
[01:01] <infinity> You probably want elmo/Znarl.
[01:01] <sivang> yes, do you know when they should be available ?
[01:03] <mdke> sivang: not at midnight on a sunday
[01:03] <mdke> sivang: an rt request will get them tho
[01:03] <infinity> sivang: It's only barely Monday (00:03 BST) in London right now.  Give 'em time to end the weekend.
[01:03] <infinity> And yes, RT it.
[01:04] <sivang> how do I RT ?
[01:05] <mdke> you email rt@admin.canonical.com
[01:05] <infinity> -> /msg
[01:05] <infinity> Or not. :)
[01:05] <mdke> ah
[01:05] <infinity> mdke: I was trying to avoid that landing in Fabio's IRC logs for spam crawlers. :)
[01:08] <bddebian> Howdy folks
[01:08] <mdke> sivang: this hole isn't big enough for the both of us
[01:08] <sivang> heh
[02:51] <Kamion> mirak: there is no way to run d-i from a running system. While I realise this is not intuitively obvious, it expects to basically *be* the operating system, and doesn't at all like something else really running the show.
[02:52] <Kamion> mirak: it might be possible to fix that one day, but it's a matter of fairly serious hacking (and tackling some fundamental issues like "how do you do partitioning when a root filesystem is mounted on that disk so the kernel can't re-read the partition table?"), not just configuration
[02:52] <wasabi_> Not worth it. But it'd be useful to install to another system from inside d-i.
[02:53] <wasabi_> Or another partition.
[02:53] <wasabi_> Or even a chroot.
[02:53] <wasabi_> (ie easier than debootstrap)
[02:54] <Kamion> "install to another system from inside d-i"> I don't even know what that means
[02:56] <wasabi_> err. from inside an existing system.
[02:56] <wasabi_> For instance, plug in my USB disk, run d-i, install to it.
[02:57] <Kamion> that's what I just said to mirak was impossible and might be fixed one day, and you said "not worth it, but <apparently the same suggestion>"
[02:57] <Kamion> s/impossible/currently impossible/
[02:57] <wasabi_> Thought you mentioned on the root file system.
[02:58] <wasabi_> Yeah, ya did.
[02:58] <Kamion> at the moment it's not possible to run d-i from a running system at all
[02:58] <wasabi_> Yeah. I know.
[02:58] <wasabi_> n/m I'm out. ;)
[02:58] <Kamion> yes, installing to a different disk would make partitioning easier
[02:58] <Kamion> in that case - but that's just one of the issues
[03:17] <infinity> Kamion: WTH are you doing around at this time of day, anyway?
[03:21] <Kamion> infinity: can't sleep; you know the score
[03:22] <infinity> Kamion: Oh, I do at that (I haven't slept since sometime yesterday), I just figured you weren't in the same boat as me. :/
[03:22] <jsgotangco> good morning
[03:22] <Kamion> infinity: not normally, just occasionally
[03:24] <Kamion> I've been writing DebuggingUbiquity on the wiki in the hope that people will create less of a mess in my inbox over subsequent weekends. ;)
[03:24] <infinity> Heh.
[03:25] <bddebian> heh
[03:38] <blanky> hey guys
[03:38] <blanky> can someone please point me in the right direction in making an ubuntu based distribution, any information I can look at?
[03:48] <jdub> mgalvin: ping
[03:59] <jsgotangco> he must be sleeping already
[04:01] <jdub> mgalvin: ahr?
[04:01] <jdub> oh, reconnect
[04:01] <jdub> yeah
[04:01] <mgalvin> jub: howdy
[04:01] <jdub> aha
[04:01] <jdub> he's back
[04:01] <jdub> new and improved
[04:01] <jdub> mgalvin: UWN moderated and posted to the fridge!
[04:01] <mgalvin> version 2.0
[04:02] <mgalvin> cool, thanks! :)
[04:03] <tseng> jdub++
[04:03] <jsgotangco> coolies
[04:10] <bddebian> Heya tseng, jsgotangco
[04:10] <jsgotangco> hey bddebian
[04:14] <tseng> hi bddebian, jsgotangco, jdub, etc.
[04:14] <Burgundavia> hey tseng
[04:14] <bddebian> Hi Burgundavia
[04:14] <bddebian> tseng: Back from your trip?
[04:15] <tseng> bddebian: yes
[04:15] <jsgotangco> hey
[04:15] <tseng> bddebian: got back friday night, if you recall the spot of weather we had then
[04:15] <bddebian> Aye
[04:15] <tseng> pretty awful
[04:15] <tseng> for flying
[04:15] <bddebian> I was out shoveling dirt in it :-)
[04:16] <tseng> you mean mud
[04:16] <bddebian> Yeah, it was at that point
[04:16] <tseng> 95 was flooded
[04:16] <tseng> a bunch of people pulled off
[04:16] <bddebian> Joy
[04:43] <mgalvin> jdub: just so you know, i am going to try and send off those UWN issues each saturday night (my time)
[04:43] <mgalvin> the sunday paper :)
[04:44] <jdub> haha
[04:44] <jdub> rad ;)
[04:45] <bddebian> Wow, I haven't heard "rad" in ages :)
[04:46] <_ion> k-rad
[04:46] <bddebian> k-rad?
[04:47] <infinity> k-rad, it's even better than rad.  Which 80s did you miss?
[04:47] <bddebian> I try hard to forget them :-)
[04:47] <hit1983> how to install tomcat ?
[04:47] <mgalvin> night all
[04:47] <bddebian> Ask in #ubuntu?
[04:47] <bddebian> Gnight mgalvin
[04:47] <_ion> To be accurate, K-rad really means "ghay-radiant".
[04:48] <mgalvin> night bddebian
[04:49] <infinity> bddebian: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=k-rad
[04:49] <bddebian> Like totally dude
[04:53] <bgertzfield> I used to be k-rad in the 80s.
[04:53] <bgertzfield> I dialed in with my 1200 baud modem to a k-rad pir-8 BBS
[04:54] <jdub> hrm
[04:54] <jdub> where's the real install documentation?
[04:54] <jdub> hrm, maybe it's on archive
[04:55] <infinity> It's generated from d-i, yes.
[04:55] <infinity> If you mean the verbose and very informative docs that Debian publishes with new releases.
[04:56] <infinity> At least... I thought it was generated from d-i... Now I can't find it.
[04:56] <jdub> boh, foild
[04:56] <jdub> yeah
[04:56] <infinity> bddebian: No, I'm not being sarcastic, the Debian install guide is generally quite useful.
[04:56] <jdub> maybe Kamion kills it from our archive
[04:57] <jdub> for instance
[04:57] <bddebian> infinity: I wasn't sure, hence the detector :-)
[04:57] <jdub> the netboot page on the wiki
[04:57] <infinity> It has wonderful instructions for l33t setups like bootp+tftp, plus general info on what the different installer bits do.
[04:57] <jdub> talks about setting up tftpd with xinetd
[04:57] <jdub> which is like
[04:57] <jdub> ... huh?
[04:57] <jdub> yeah, i'm trying to point someone to the netboot docs
[04:58] <Burgundavia> jdub: most of the installation guides on the wiki are hideously out of date
[04:58] <infinity> jdub: Just point them to the Debian docs.  They're the same.
[04:58] <jdub> oh, weird
[04:58] <jdub> http://ftp.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/warty/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual/en/index.html
[04:58] <jdub> ^ care of google (first hit)
[04:58] <infinity> http://www.debian.org/releases/sarge/debian-installer/
[04:58] <jdub> no doc dir for dapper
[04:58] <infinity> So, we distributed it in warty, but not in dapper?... Perhaps we just deemed it "unmaintained", and dropped it.  I dunno.
[04:59] <infinity> Worth poking Kamion about sometime.
[04:59] <infinity> Oh, this was the more proper link:
[04:59] <infinity> http://www.debian.org/releases/sarge/installmanual
[04:59] <jdub> i'll pass on the breezy one
[04:59] <infinity> Oh, we still published it in breezy?
[04:59] <infinity> Then  Isuspect we lost it as part of the soyuz transition.
[04:59] <infinity> And perhaps no one noticed.
[05:00] <Burgundavia> infinity: in there any sane reason to install PH5 from source?
[05:00] <infinity> Burgundavia: Not that I can think of.
[05:01] <infinity> Burgundavia: There may be reason to install more extensions from source than we build, but that can be done in about 5 seconds with php5-dev and phpize, much less effort than installing the whole mess.
[05:01] <Burgundavia> ok
[05:01] <infinity> Burgundavia: Why do you ask?
[05:01] <Burgundavia> murdering useless wiki pages
[05:02] <infinity> Yeah, I don't think "installing $foo from source" where $foo is a package we ship belongs on the Ubuntu wiki at all, TBH.
[05:02] <Kamion> jdub: installation-guide package
[05:02] <Kamion> jdub: doc.ubuntu.com
[05:02] <infinity> It belongs in upstream docs, certainly.
[05:03] <Kamion> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/i386/
[05:03] <Kamion> mgalvin needs to kick an update to the current package, though, to get rid of 6.04 and stuff
[05:03] <infinity> Kamion: Ahh, we just stopped publishing is in installer-$arch, so I got confused.
[05:03] <infinity> s/is/it/
[05:03] <Kamion> yes, it's not in the archive in the old style any more because the manual got rearranged upstream
[05:03] <infinity> Makes sense.  Just confused the bejesus out of me. :)
[05:04] <jdub> oh
[05:04] <jdub> Kamion: 'cos i looked at help.ubuntu.com; didn't expect it to be on doc.
[05:04] <Kamion> I think mgalvin intended to put it on help.ubuntu.com once dapper was released, iirc
[05:04] <bddebian> Heya \sh
[05:05] <jdub> ahr
[05:05] <Kamion> http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/ <-- 403, fun
[05:05] <\sh> good morning
[05:05] <infinity> Yeah, I just noticed that. :)
[05:05] <infinity> help.ubuntu.com appears to need some TLC.
[05:05] <infinity> jdub: I tihnk doc.u.c is meant to be unstable docs, for the docteam and contributors, while help.ubuntu.com is aimed at end users.
[05:05] <infinity> jdub: I think...
[05:06] <Kamion> that was my understanding too
[05:06] <Burgundavia> infinity: you are correct
[05:06] <Burgundavia> mdke_ is coordinating the switchover
[05:06] <infinity> Shame that help.ubuntu.com looks nearly useless currently.
[05:06] <Burgundavia> the wiki documentation is about to move to a new wiki there
[05:06] <jdub> yeah, but nothiing about the subdomains themselves indicates that :)
[05:07] <infinity> yeah, it should probably be s/doc/docteam/ ... Or something.
[05:07] <infinity> I'd expect doc and help to be aliases to the same vhost.
[05:08] <jsgotangco> :/
[05:08] <jsgotangco> its the same machine
[05:08] <jdub> like
[05:08] <jdub> google will index that stuff
[05:08] <jdub> and people will find it anyway
[05:08] <infinity> Well, I'm not entirely sure subdomains are clear to the non-geeky at all, period.
[05:09] <jdub> and the ubuntu wiki has such extreme google juice at this point, it's just going to be a massive fight
[05:09] <infinity> Tell your mom to go to "doc.ubuntu.com" and watch her type "www.doc.ubuntu.com"
[05:09] <jdub> Fight For The Google Juice
[05:09] <infinity> She totally will.
[05:09] <jdub> Only One Will...
[05:09] <jdub> Be Lucky
[05:09] <jdub> s/Be/Feel/
[05:09] <jdub> damn
[05:09] <bddebian> hehe
[05:09] <jdub> better remember that for next time
[05:11] <Burgundavia> the google juice issue is not that big, because the existing wiki is going to redirect
[05:11] <infinity> In related "mom and URL" things, has anyone ever actually tried to tell someone over the age of 50 to go to "Aitch tee tee pee colon slash slash slash dot dot org" before?  Doesn't work so well.
[05:12] <jdub> i would not try to expose people over 50 to slashdot
[05:12] <jdub> you awful person!
[05:13] <infinity> jdub: It was in the 90s, they were selling a t-shirt I liked, I've since repented.
[05:13] <infinity> jdub: To make up for it, not only have I not exposed any more aging folk to slashdot, I also stopped reading it myself somewhere around 2000.
[05:14] <jdub> the naughties are all about repentence
[05:14] <\sh> whatever slashdot is
[05:17] <Burgundavia> tseng: is there a sane reason to install Mono from source?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> docteam.u.c is used for svn
[05:25] <infinity> svn doesn't have to be the root of a vhost, just host the svn at docteam.ubuntu.com/svn and have the docteam website at docteam.ubuntu.com
[05:26] <dieman> heh
[05:28] <\sh> why the hell it's not possible to create a i386 pbuilder on amd64 with --debootstrapopts "--arch 386"?
[05:28] <\sh> whereas a simple deboostrap works out of the bocx
[05:28] <\sh> s/bocx/box/
[05:28] <dieman> strange
[05:28] <dieman> apache died
[05:29] <dieman> on my mirror
[05:29] <dieman> no idea why
[05:29] <infinity> dieman: Nothing in the logs?
[05:30] <infinity> \sh: --arch isn't mean for cross-arch bootstraps, it's just meant for cases when "dpkg --print-installaiton-architecture" is useless (or missing completely)
[05:30] <dieman> hrm, does apache restart as part of the logrotate stuff?
[05:30] <dieman> perhaps it just didn't come back right 
[05:30] <ajmitch> afternoon all
[05:31] <infinity> dieman: Yes, it does.  If your particular installation doesn't run any modules that break on graceful, change it to reload.
[05:31] <\sh> infinity: then the documentation of pbuilder is totally useless
[05:31] <dieman> ahh
[05:31] <dieman> thats probally what happened
[05:31] <infinity> dieman: I have yet to find the "right" solution to that one, and restarting is more correct for more people, due to module breakage. :/
[05:31] <\sh> pbuilder create --distribution sid --debootstrapopts --arch --debootstrapopts i386 \
[05:31] <\sh>   --basetgz /var/cache/pbuilder/base-i386.tgz --mirror http://ftp.jp.debian.org/debian
[05:31] <dieman> i have no idea why it wouldn't have come back up though 
[05:31] <dieman> odd
[05:31] <infinity> dieman: /etc/logrotate.d/apache2 -> s/restart/reload/
[05:31] <\sh> and then calling pbuilder with linux32 to build
[05:31] <dieman> yah
[05:32] <dieman> infinity: thanks
[05:32] <infinity> dieman: If it was under really heavy load, it can take too long to go down and still be running when it tries to come up.
[05:32] <dieman> aha
[05:32] <dieman> thats what it was then is my guess
[05:32] <infinity> I *think* I can fix that problem.
[05:32] <dieman> it was under heavy load still, probally
[05:32] <infinity> And probably will for etch/edgy.
[05:32] <dieman> infinity: http://x2218-1.nts.umn.edu/cgi-bin/gtr.northernlights.gigapop.net.cgi?log=gtr.northernlights.gigapop.net_so-0_0_0.0
[05:32] <infinity> (We already wait 60 seconds for it to die, mind you...)
[05:32] <dieman> infinity: see the notch at 7am? :)
[05:32] <infinity> But I think I can kill it better.  We'll see.
[05:33] <dieman> looks like it was doing at least 50mbps on that connection
[05:33] <dieman> so it was probally doing like 75mbps only
[05:33] <dieman> sunday morning is slow
[05:34] <dieman> heh, its already doing 40mbps
[05:35] <infinity> \sh: I'm sure it's doable, but I'm not sitting in front of an amd64 machine right now, so can't experiment.
[05:35] <\sh> infinity: with a plain debootstrap it works ... but not with the pbuilder wrapper
[05:35] <\sh> strange
[05:35] <\sh> infinity: works means: it fetches i386 packages and not amd64 packages
[05:35] <infinity> dieman: apache2's init script will haunt me until the day I die.  It just grows hack upon hack.  It's dangerously close to becoming sentient.
[05:36] <bddebian> heh
[05:37] <infinity> dieman: I'll see if I can make make "restart" behave better in the next (with even more AI!) version I upload with 2.0.58/2.2.0 later today/tomorrow.
[05:38] <dieman> heh
[06:10] <jdub> infinity: i am sad that the old apache uber-log-rotation stuff doesn't exist anymore - the one that found all log files referenced by the apache config. i guess that's harder to do with logrotate itself.
[06:21] <infinity> jdub: I still have the scary awk that made that go, and COULD perhaps do it again, but it was a pretty ugly hack.
[06:21] <infinity> jdub: It has crossed my mind, though.  The last time we saw it was, what?  potato's apache 1.3.9?
[06:22] <jdub> yeah, probably
[06:23] <jdub> i loved it so much though
[06:23] <jdub> it was one of the 'just works' things that really turned me on about debian
[06:23] <jdub> attention to detail, etc.
[06:24] <infinity> Okay, why do we not have libpam-keying in the archive?  (And any bets on how soon I upload it after edgy opens?)
[06:24] <infinity> No more gnome-keyring password prompts, FTW.
[06:24] <jdub> what does libpam-keyring do?
[06:24] <infinity> jdub: I'll consider it for etch/edgy.
[06:25] <infinity> jdub: pam_keyring allows you to authenticate your gnome-keyring via PAM...
[06:25] <jdub> oh right
[06:25] <jdub> nice
[06:25] <\sh> keyring like in gpg-keyring?
[06:25] <infinity> jdub: Which, if you're uber-lazy, could just mean having the same password for login and your keyring, and doing password falthrough.
[06:25] <jdub> back to logs - how would it interact with logrotate?
[06:25] <infinity> Or, you could be more tricky.
[06:26] <infinity> \sh: No, the gnome-keyring, AKA: The irritating thing that stores wifi passwords and makes networkmanager no fun on every login.
[06:26] <\sh> infinity: ah...like kwallet...same problem on KDEs site of the earth
[06:27] <desrt> kerberise?  like security?
[06:27] <desrt> infinity; haha.  funny you should mention that
[06:27] <desrt> infinity; i wrote a program today!
[06:27] <desrt> http://desrt.mcmaster.ca/random/keyring-unlocker.c
[06:27] <desrt> oh yah baby.  no more hatred for me.
[06:28] <jdub> i love it how people are flickring their upgrades
[06:28] <infinity> pam_keyring seems slightly more "correct", but unlocking will make me happy in the short run.
[06:28] <jdub> with appropriate glee and hysterics about how easy it is
[06:28] <desrt> pam_keyring is dapper-incompatible
[06:28] <Burgundavia> jdub: except when they break horribly
[06:28] <infinity> Given that the only thing I store in there is my wifi passwords, and I'm perfectly happy with those being protected by filesystem permissions, I've always been annoyed at the extra security.
[06:28] <infinity> desrt: Is it?
[06:28] <desrt> \sh; that's hilariously insecure
[06:28] <jdub> Burgundavia: why would anyone flickr that?
[06:28] <desrt> infinity; it requires pam 0.99
[06:29] <desrt> infinity; dapper has 0.7something
[06:29] <infinity> desrt: No, there's a version for older PAMs as well.
[06:29] <desrt> oh.  neat.
[06:29] <\sh> desrt: the pam mount thing, yes, it was just a technological tryout 
[06:29] <HrdwrBoB> yes, it shits me having to type in my password constantly
[06:29] <HrdwrBoB> although, having an airo card, it doesn't actually WORK anyway
[06:29] <desrt> the real solution would be to make an SD card (or perhaps more suitably, a USB device) which does onboard RSA key operations and has a secret key which it refuses to ever give to anyone ever
[06:30] <infinity> jdub: Not sure how I'd make it integrate with logrotate, or if I'd have to scrap the logrotate config and go back to cron+savelog. :/
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> desrt: yes
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> it's also more expensive
[06:30] <infinity> jdub: (Not that there's anything wrong with cron+savelog, just that people like centralised log rotation)
[06:30] <\sh> desrt: the other possibility would be to make crypto key smartcards work out of the box for edgy (usb or pcmcia devices included ;))
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> and potentially disastrous for the user
[06:30] <desrt> HrdwrBoB; shrug.
[06:30] <HrdwrBoB> because all it takes is one idiot to lose their card and they lose all their data
[06:30] <desrt> HrdwrBoB; s/card/passphrase/
[06:31] <desrt> HrdwrBoB; same story, really
[06:31] <HrdwrBoB> don't get me wrong it's a good idea, it's just that it's a bit more onerous
[06:31] <HrdwrBoB> oh, passphrase, I was thinking you weren't using a passphrase at all
[06:31] <HrdwrBoB> have purely physical security 
[06:32] <\sh> HrdwrBoB: funny thing is, gpg does support key smartcards and 2-4 devices to read them, to create gpg keys and rings directly. but it does not work on dapper out of the box..tried it last week
[06:32] <desrt> no devices suit my needs
[06:33] <jdub> what's hilariously insecure about keeping your private key on a usb stick? it's only slightly less secure than keeping it on your laptop (and only because the usb stick is smaller)
[06:33] <\sh> desrt: well, right now, the smartcards can handle only 1024 bit keys yes
[06:33] <desrt> jdub; security is a relative term
[06:33] <infinity> jdub: Except your laptop has a higher chance of being stolen than a random memoery stick does, so the stick becomes more secure.
[06:33] <jdub> hilarious was the relative term i was questioning
[06:33] <desrt> jdub; if you put a lot of effort into something (which it sounds like was the case) then you should expect to gain a fair deal of security
[06:33] <jdub> infinity: yeah, now that's true too
[06:34] <jdub> desrt: sticking your gpg key on a usb stick doesn't require a lot of effort
[06:34] <desrt> jdub; for the amount of effort to implement the scheme described it makes almost entirely no difference
[06:34] <desrt> jdub; encrypting the filesystem and hooking up pam-mount does
[06:34] <desrt> and presumably, it's on a USB stick so that you can take it places
[06:34] <desrt> meanwhile, any computer you plug it into could just make a copy of it
[06:35] <desrt> plus, encrypted filesystem is totally redundant to having a passphrase on the key itself
[06:35] <desrt> and the instant you enter the passphrase on some other computer .... let's hope you trust their box :)
[06:35] <desrt> this is what i mean hilariously insecure
[06:36] <desrt> having a token that did RSA ops is more secure because the box never has a chance to copy key data from the device
[06:36] <jdub> a) why encrypt it? b) why stick it in an untrusted computer?
[06:36] <desrt> well
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> covers it if stolen
[06:36] <jdub> rhetorical questions
[06:36] <jdub> don't waste your effort :)
[06:36] <desrt> if you're only going to use it with your laptop anyway why not just store it on your laptop?
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> that said, nobody steals a USB key to get the gpg keys off it
[06:36] <jdub> because laptop goes walkies
[06:36] <desrt> fair, i suppose.
[06:36] <HrdwrBoB> and if they are, they're going to be good, and are likely to get it anyway
[06:37] <desrt> i've never lost a laptop.  i've lost a few usb devices....
[06:37] <jsgotangco> a usb stick is more likely to be reformatted once taken than a laptop
[06:37] <desrt> jdub; when your laptop got stolen did it have key data on it?
[06:37] <jsgotangco> (and also depends on the location where it was stolen i guess)
[06:37] <\sh> let's have a short reminder: UBZ
[06:37] <HrdwrBoB> a laptop running linux is going to be reformatted if stolen
[06:37] <HrdwrBoB> that's pretty much ti
[06:37] <desrt> \sh; but the noodles were SOOO good
[06:37] <jdub> desrt: yes
[06:37] <desrt> forever in my mind those noodles will be associated with jeff's laptop being stonel
[06:37] <desrt> *stolen
[06:37] <desrt> jdub; did you revoke?
[06:38] <jdub> no
[06:38] <desrt> good man
[06:38] <\sh> desrt: for one day: absolutely 
[06:38] <jdub> i'm a bad person, etc.
[06:38] <desrt> ya right
[06:38] <jdub> i don't bother with keysigning crap either
[06:38] <\sh> desrt: and ajmitch
[06:38] <jdub> just makes my eyes glaze over
[06:38] <desrt> i promise you the person who stole your laptop (or the person they sold it to) booted it up, scratched their head for a moment, then reached for a windows install CD
[06:38] <jdub> "wait -- i could be FISHING!!!"
[06:39] <HrdwrBoB> desrt: no wa
[06:39] <HrdwrBoB> way
[06:39] <jdub> "wait -- i could be reupholstering the sofa!!!"
[06:39] <HrdwrBoB> the person who stole it likely fenced it for some smack
[06:39] <HrdwrBoB> and that person sold it to some other guy 
[06:39] <desrt> HrdwrBoB; that's considered selling.  see above :p
[06:39] <HrdwrBoB> and THAT person installed windows
[06:39] <jdub> "wait -- i could be regrouting the shower!!!"
[06:39] <infinity> jdub: I just had the most perverse idea to integrate it into logrotate, using "include" in unholy ways.
[06:39] <desrt> HrdwrBoB; i use 'sold it to' under transitive closure :)
[06:39] <jdub> infinity: elite!
[06:39] <jdub> infinity: you can include the log definition?
[06:39] <jdub> OH!
[06:39] <jdub> of course you can
[06:40] <desrt> jdub; you will sign my key at guadec.
[06:40] <HrdwrBoB> desrt: yeah I skipped that part because it was in brackets, I would like a replacement parser please
[06:40] <jdub> you're a sicko - good idea!
[06:40] <infinity> jdub: Have a dummy rotatio directive that rotates nothing but runs a script that generated an include dir full of logrotate snippets, then include that directory.
[06:40] <nomed> hi all
[06:40] <infinity> jdub: It feels very, very wrong, and potentially fragile, but worth toying with before I dismiss it.
[06:40] <Burgundavia> jdub: what is the mugshot repo again?
[06:41] <desrt> people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/edgy
[06:41] <jdub> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/edgy/ ./
[06:41] <Burgundavia> cheers
[06:41] <nomed> i'm connected using ssh to a breezy box .. i need to run a debootstrap .. but i get a really strange error :
[06:41] <jdub> NOT THAT I AM RUNNING EDGY YET
[06:41] <nomed> W: Failure trying to run: chroot /home/nomed/chroot mount -t proc proc /proc
[06:41] <desrt> i heard edgy opened
[06:41] <nomed> is this a known issue ?
[06:41] <Hobbsee> jdub: hehe.  of course not.
[06:41] <desrt> nomed; #ubuntu is a better place for this question
[06:42] <nomed> desrt, do u really think they can help me on this ?
[06:42] <nomed> i've not seen even a bug on debootstrap in launchpad ..
[06:42] <desrt> heh.  you could try #debian
[06:42] <nomed> i can try anyway
[06:43] <nomed> desrt, ehehe
[06:43] <infinity> desrt: #debian is less than friendly, and not entirely representative of the project.
[06:43] <infinity> desrt: When most DDs hop into #debian to help out, they end up leaving again within minutes.
[06:43] <\sh> #debian moved to oftc anyways
[06:43] <nomed> anyway it looks really strange ...
[06:43] <jdub> infinity keeps mixing up his words
[06:43] <jdub> he meant
[06:43] <desrt> infinity; this was also back in the warty days when people weren't yet sure about if they hated ubuntu or what
[06:44] <jdub> "#debian is less than friendly, and entirely not representative of the project."
[06:44] <nomed> i can't even use mount as root on that "chroot chroot/" ..
[06:44] <infinity> jdub: I meant the former, actually, but the latter certainly has more spin.
[06:44] <infinity> jdub: I'm willing to admit that some DDs are nearly as hostile as #debian. :)
[06:44] <\sh> nomed: sudo mount -o bind -t proc /proc /bla/chroot/proc doesn't work?
[06:44] <infinity> jdub: Just not the project as a whole.
[06:44] <nomed> \sh it works ..
[06:44] <jdub> http://www.threadless.com/product/435/Blog
[06:45] <desrt> what happened to mjg59?
[06:45] <desrt> he used to be so much more angry
[06:45] <desrt> he's all docile now
[06:45] <infinity> He grew up a bit.
[06:45] <nomed> the problem is that debootstrap uses mount within the chroot
[06:45] <infinity> Now he's only angry when drunk.
[06:45] <desrt> i enjoyed his omnipresent mean-streak
[06:45] <\sh> nomed: well, it worked for me in breezy times, and works well in dapper times to create even hoary chroots ;)
[06:46] <nomed> \sh, yep .. it works for me even on others breezy box ...
[06:46] <nomed> and i can't figure out what's wrong there ..
[06:47] <\sh> nomed: support answer no. 1 in windows IT: Please reinstall your OS ;)
[06:47] <nomed> "googling" .. i've seen it 's an issue that exists ..
[06:47] <nomed> \sh, i'm in italy and that's in belgium ..
[06:47] <nomed> i'll ask them anyway what they did on that machine ..
[06:47] <nomed> thanks you all anyway
[06:48] <\sh> nomed: check the sources.list for any debian repositories ;)
[06:48] <nomed> \sh, just breezy ...
[06:48] <nomed> checked already ..
[06:50] <\sh> http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html he is so right
[06:50] <whiprush_> \sh: you were looking for me earlier?
[06:50] <desrt> that article is extremely boring
[06:51] <desrt> when you make a claim like that you better have the goods to back it up
[06:51] <desrt> and he failed to deliver
[06:51] <desrt> 6:             int mid = (low + high) / 2;
[06:51] <desrt> 7:             int midVal = a[mid] ;
[06:51] <desrt> that's one huge array if mid might overflow
[06:51] <\sh> whiprush_: yes
[06:53] <\sh> whiprush_: when I remember, you gave a talk about mass deployment of ubuntu desktops via kickstart, right?
[06:54] <whiprush_> yeah
[06:54] <\sh> whiprush_: do you have the presentation online somehwere?
[06:55] <jsgotangco> that would be neat
[06:55] <whiprush_> on my laptop, I can throw them up on the web when I get to work (about 9 hours from now)
[06:55] <\sh> whiprush_: rock :) thx :)
[06:57] <\sh> desrt: he said this
[07:00] <\sh> desrt: but I see his article as proof of concept...it can happen anywhere in the world of binary sorts. it's the same assumption like (int)(64bit-64bit) == 32bit ;)
[08:39] <kagou> hi
[09:11] <mdke_> 04:06:25 < infinity> Shame that help.ubuntu.com looks nearly useless currently.
[09:11] <mdke_> infinity: what's wrong with it?
[09:13] <glick> hi
[09:13] <glick> is anyone here
[09:27] <glick> hello?
[09:28] <HiddenWolf> mdke: it's a bit spartan
[09:29] <HiddenWolf> glick: if there is something you'd like to discuss or ask, just do so.
[09:29] <mdke> HiddenWolf: are you talking about the content?
[09:29] <HiddenWolf> mdke: both content and presentation.
[09:30] <glick> yeah is it purposefully that in .bash_profile if ~/bin exists it is prepended to your current PATH, shouldnt it be appended? i thought this was a potential security hole
[09:30] <mdke> HiddenWolf: right. Can you send your suggestions to the ubuntu-doc mailing list please?
[09:30] <HiddenWolf> mdke: I'll take a look and mail the list. :)
[09:30] <HiddenWolf> I was about to wait untill the wiki got transferred.
[09:31] <jsgotangco> hmm maybe a one page, mulitple page html tgz download would be helpful too
[09:32] <jsgotangco> and a pdf tgz
[09:32] <mdke> I'm just amazed that it could be described as "nearly useless"
[09:32] <HiddenWolf> mdke: You'll not hear me say that
[09:32] <mdke> pretty harsh critique of 6 months work
[09:33] <mdke> 8*
[09:33] <HiddenWolf> mdke: help.ubuntu has saved me literally dozens of explanations, it's very convenient to link to from irc. :)
[09:33] <\sh> glick: where is the security hole? 
[09:33] <jsgotangco> mdke: its not the content actually, its more of the presentation i'd say
[09:33] <glick> \sh, in .bash_profile
[09:34] <glick> \sh, shouldnt ~/bin be appended to the $PATH instead of prepended?
[09:34] <\sh> glick: you mean prepending ~/bin ? i don't see any security risk there
[09:34] <\sh> glick: because it should be just you who have access to your home
[09:35] <glick> \sh, what if root account is installed and root issues a su in my home directory and i happen to have my own version of su there
[09:36] <\sh> glick: to be honest, if you have your own su in your home, i would be wondered
[09:36] <glick> or i go to someones computer and put a .bin with a sudo version that will send me me his password
[09:36] <glick> oh yeah and a cd version that wont show the bin directory
[09:36] <\sh> glick: then you had hacked his computer already
[09:36] <glick> \sh, no not really
[09:36] <\sh> glick: or this someone is really stoopid
[09:37] <jsgotangco> mdke: i can hardly believe the the frontpage is 6 months work ;)
[09:37] <glick> means i walked up to his computer in his user account, and am waiting for the root password
[09:37] <giftnudel> \sh: well isn't the point rather, that it's easier to place something in ~/bin then in /bin?
[09:38] <\sh> giftnudel: yes, but I wonder if someone is really so careless and let others on their homedir
[09:39] <HiddenWolf> \sh: most people have a homedir for "dad" and one for "family"
[09:39] <giftnudel> actually, it's kind of pointless anyway (as I realize now) if you have access to someones homedir, you can easily change his or her path
[09:39] <\sh> giftnudel: the other way around, the first user has only sudo rights, so if he has an own version of sudo in his dir, he is responsible ;)
[09:39] <giftnudel> hehe
[09:40] <\sh> HiddenWolf: yes, but mostly dad is sudo master, and family is just using the computer, so dad can do what he wants anyways
[09:40] <mdke> jsgotangco: the site is, as you know.
[09:40] <glick> \sh, here is another senario
[09:41] <giftnudel> so I don't think it's more insecure then appending it, since you just have to modify .bash_profile to PATH="~/bin:"$PATH or seomething similar
[09:41] <glick> if you have a root account installed
[09:41] <glick> admin comes over to my terminal, does a su
[09:41] <looksaus> is there a way to get strikethrough text in the wiki? probably not, I suppose?
[09:41] <jsgotangco> mdke: i think its just a matter of tinkering with the frontpage that is all
[09:41] <glick> instead of a su -
[09:41] <giftnudel> glick: this is the admins fault
[09:41] <HiddenWolf> \sh: usually in a family the kids are in control of the computer, and can do what they want untill dad's work gets whiped out.
[09:41] <\sh> glick: if admin has root account, he would use username: root as login name and does a chown <your user> afterwards
[09:42] <\sh> glick: if admin has brain, he uses his useraccount and does a sudo because he can trust himself
[09:42] <giftnudel> glick: I see your point, but I don't really think it matters that much
[09:42] <\sh> glick: if admin is braindead, he's at fault
[09:43] <\sh> HiddenWolf: that's the reason why families have "kids computers" and "dad computer named laptop" ;)
[09:43] <HiddenWolf> \sh: chuckle
[09:43] <giftnudel> glick: if you have access to someones homedir, replace the icon to the terminal with one that logs su & passwords and you are done too
[09:44] <giftnudel> shortcut I mean
[09:44] <\sh> HiddenWolf: no really...I'm dad, I'm root, that's the law ;) 
[09:45] <\sh> HiddenWolf: and kids have a playstation
[09:45] <HiddenWolf> ;)
[09:45] <\sh> HiddenWolf: and when the kids are old enough they get their own computer to destroy ;)
[09:45] <Hobbsee> \sh: that's a great way to run things :)
[09:46] <\sh> speaking of brainded....
[09:46] <giftnudel> glick: the following will do in .bashrc (or _profile): export PATH="~/bin:"$PATH and you have the same result
[09:46] <\sh> how can someone destroy automake magic and remove DESTDIR support from it
[09:59] <roh> hi there
[09:59] <HiddenWolf> hey vuntz, what is the libgnome-applet soc project going to do, is there a proposal somewhere?
[10:01] <roh> i'm searching for someone from the i386 kernelteam to discuss a bug. yeah ive read the topic, but since #ubuntu is scrolling rather fast noone there seems to has his hand in that packages
[10:01] <HiddenWolf> roh: you can try #ubuntu-kernel 
[10:01] <roh> ah thanks
[10:09] <sivang> morning all
[10:11] <Hobbsee> hey sivang 
[10:11] <sivang> Hobbsee: 'sup ?
[10:12] <Hobbsee> i have to go to work soon - contemplatign dinner before or after it..
[10:14] <ajmitch> before
[10:15] <Hobbsee> hehe.  sounds simple.
[10:20] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: crackers make good pre-dinner?
[10:22] <ajmitch> no
[10:22] <Hobbsee> too bad.
[10:22] <Hobbsee> :P
[10:57] <vuntz_> HiddenWolf: libgnome-applet is about creating a library making it really easy to write applets
[10:57] <vuntz_> HiddenWolf: it will contain some widgets doing nearly all the work
[12:27] <iwj> pitti: I was expecting those CVEs for firefox 1.5.0.4 ...
[12:28] <iwj> Do you want me to dig them out myself from the mozilla.org release notes, or do you have some top secret source of your own ?
[12:41] <Kamion> Keybuk: does udevplug ever exit non-zero?
[12:41] <Keybuk> I don't think so, no
[12:41] <Keybuk> it used to if the timeout happened, but that caused problems
[12:42] <Kamion> ok, thanks - just investigating bug 48257
[12:42] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48257 in ubiquity "hw-detect mysteriously exits 1" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48257
[12:42] <Keybuk> ah, no
[12:42] <Keybuk> sorry
[12:42] <Keybuk> it still does exit 1 if the timeout happens
[12:42] <Kamion> the logs pinpoint the mysterious exit rather close to the end of the script, and udevplug is one of the few things called in there
[12:42] <Kamion> (there are some others)
[12:42] <Keybuk> ask them whether it took ~3 minutes
[12:43] <Kamion> worth a try, asking, thanks
[12:44] <ogra> hmm, is fabio on holiday already ? 
[12:45] <iwj> Things shouldn't exit nonzero without stderr output.
[12:46] <iwj> (Unless specifically requested eg diff --silent.)
[12:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: btw, bazaar.launchpad.net doesn't seem to serve the same stuff from within the DC as it does from without, which is kind of problematic for seeds
[12:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: try http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.edgy/ from rookery
[12:50] <sivang> Kamion: that's the new place for edgy seed stuff?
[12:50] <Kamion> sivang: will be, but isn't yet - an announcement will be sent out with details once it's all working
[12:50] <Kamion> part of the point being to enable non-Canonical-employees who are ubuntu-core-dev members to commit to the seeds
[12:51] <Keybuk> Kamion: this is a known bug, the thing that makes the http side uses an old bzr that doesn't support knits
[12:51] <Keybuk> Kamion: it'll be fixed in the Tuesday rollout
[12:52] <Kamion> Keybuk: um, but it displays something different from outside the DC (it doesn't 404)
[12:53] <Keybuk> Kamion: yeah, it's a bzr repository with the knits missing ;)
[12:55] <Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/+branch/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.edgy
[12:55] <Keybuk> /!\ Launchpad could not mirror this branch at 2006-06-04 19:20:03 BST.  The error was: [Errno 21]  Is a directory
[12:55] <Keybuk> etc.
[12:55] <Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ wget -S -O /dev/null http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.edgy/ 2>&1 | head | grep HTTP/1
[12:55] <Kamion> cjwatson@chinstrap:~$ wget -S -O /dev/null http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.edgy/ 2>&1 | head | grep HTTP/1
[12:56] <Kamion>   HTTP/1.0 200 OK
[12:56] <Kamion>   HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
[12:56] <Keybuk> oh, I see what you maen!
[12:56] <Keybuk> sorry
[12:56] <Keybuk> I thought you were on about that the HTTP published stuff is entirely devoid of revisions
[12:56] <Kamion> oh, no, I sort of expected that
[12:57] <infinity> One of you needs to change the length of your nick...
[12:57] <Kamion> :-)
[12:57] <infinity> Watching a conversation between two people whose 6-character nick starts with "K" is very confusing.
[12:58] <ajmitch> just slightly
[01:03] <Keybuk> Kamion: that's damned strange, isn't it
[01:03] <Keybuk> it's the same machine
[01:04] <Kamion> I'm assuming the apache config is a bit borked
[01:04] <Kamion> I think I'll just file an RT request about it
[01:04] <ogra> infinity, just use a proper chat client, Kamion is green for me and Keybuk is blue in xchat ;)
[01:05] <mdke> is there something strange about the dns servers in the datacentre? Apparently my blog is giving a 404 to the machine that servers planet, but the dns was changed last friday, and seems to have propagated everywhere else
[01:06] <mdke> servers/serves
[01:06] <thom> colours are evil, kthxbye
[01:06] <infinity> ogra: I can do without multicoloured coworkers.
[01:06] <ogra> thom, purist !
[01:07] <ogra> infinity, well, its less confusing to have themm coloured :)
[01:07] <infinity> Sure, and even less confusing to have them all associated with little cartoon characters, so we should all switch to MS Comic Chat!
[01:08] <InfraRed> MS comica chat rocked
[01:09] <InfraRed> # APPEARS AS ANNA
[01:12] <\sh> whatever ms comica chat is...
[01:12] <StevenK> \sh: Think IRC, but every line is a cartoon cell.
[01:13] <ajmitch> a very worrying program
[01:13] <\sh> StevenK: ah ok....then I don't need it...I have a cartoon every morning when I look in the mirror, that's enough of cartoons for the day ;)
[01:22] <\sh> ogra: hmmm...like a manga comic? "crash bang boom" with wide open big eyes and whining japanese teenagers singing "Heidi, heidi"?
[01:23] <ogra> well, might be, i doubt you could even read it because the pcs get replaced to fast :)
[01:23] <ogra> *pics
[01:29] <k3mper> hi, where can i get source package of dapper's default kernel image (i386)?
[01:30] <\sh> k3mper: apt-get install linux-source-2.6.15
[01:31] <\sh> k3mper: or you want the real source debian package which you get with apt-get source linux-image-2.6.15-23-<arch>
[01:31] <k3mper> linux-source gets me 2.6.15.7-ubuntu1 but uname -r = 2.6.15-23-386
[01:31] <ogra> and #ubuntu for such questions please
[01:32] <\sh> oh yes, i forgot
[01:32] <k3mper> ogra: i tried for 'few' minutes
[01:32] <ogra> k3mper, still, this isnt a support channel
[01:33] <Keybuk> who knows stuff about openssl?
[01:34] <ogra> Keybuk, well, fabi made our certificate package ... i be he does a bit ...
[01:50] <zul> heylo
[01:51] <ajmitch> hey zul 
[01:51] <zul> hey ajmitch 
[01:51] <ajmitch> what's up?
[01:51] <zul> [root@mail2 vqadmin] # vim .htaccess
[01:51] <zul> [root@mail2 vqadmin] # /etc/init.d/httpd restart
[01:51] <zul> Stopping httpd:                                            [  OK  ] 
[01:51] <zul> what the hell
[01:51] <Keybuk> ?
[01:51] <Keybuk> you told it to restart
[01:52] <Keybuk> did you mean "reload"? :)
[01:52] <zul> meh..
[01:52] <zul> need coffee or stronger
[01:53] <ogra> httpd ? 
[01:53] <zul> redhat
[01:53] <ogra> ah
[01:55] <ubijtsa2> the "restart" stanza often does '$0 stop ; $0 start'
[02:06] <sivang> yay
[02:07] <sivang> network is working again
[02:08] <holycow> !restricted
[02:08] <holycow> ah we don't have ubotu here?
[02:08] <holycow> k
[02:30] <sladen> holycow: this is #ubuntu-devel, not #ubuntu
[02:34] <mirak> hi
[02:34] <sladen> mirak: hi. isn't it beautiful weather here today
[02:34] <KaiL_> ..bah, the Wiki sucks
[02:34] <mirak> it's cloudy
[02:35] <mirak> in there, but it's hot
[02:35] <mirak> sladen: where do you live ?
[02:52] <sladen> mirak: London.  Occasionally.
[02:52] <abattoir> Kamion: hello :) . I'm working on the Kubuntu OEM Installer. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-oem-installer
[02:53] <abattoir> Kamion:do you think the spec needs any modification?
[02:53] <sladen> mirak: you could ask kamion if there's a replacement for base-config rather than doing  passwd ; tzconfig ; echo ... > /etc/apt/sources.list
[02:54] <Kamion> no there is no replacement for base-config at present
[02:54] <abattoir> Kamion: and also, Riddell pointed me towards https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-oem-installer
[02:54] <mirak> Kamion: why was it dropped ?
[02:54] <abattoir> sorry, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/oem-config/mainline/menu/
[02:54] <Kamion> abattoir: it's bizarre that stage 1 and 2 of your proposed design are that way round
[02:54] <abattoir> Kamion: but that doesnt seem to have the files the 'oem-config' package in main does.
[02:55] <Kamion> abattoir: go up a level
[02:55] <Kamion> mirak: because it sucked horribly
[02:55] <Kamion> mirak: doing it all in the d-i first stage is much, much better in the general case; yes, it does mean that it's a little harder to bootstrap a system without d-i though, but hopefully that can eventually be fixed
[02:56] <mirak> d-i ?
[02:56] <abattoir> Kamion: It was suggested that i first create a KDE Dialog-based oem-config, like the current GTK one first...
[02:56] <mirak> Kamion: ?
[02:56] <Kamion> mirak: debian-installer
[02:56] <abattoir> Kamion: and then work on changing it to look somewhat like how i had shown in the mockup
[02:57] <Kamion> abattoir: the code needs to have a decent frontend/backend separation first (your stage 2); only then will it be sanely possible to glue a KDE interface onto it
[02:57] <Kamion> abattoir: to do that, I think it'll be necessary to totally upend oem-config and make it be laid out a bit more like ubiquity internally. I hope to do that fairly soon.
[02:58] <Kamion> because that will help the gtk frontend a lot
[02:58] <Kamion> at present you have to mess about with a large pile of different source packages
[02:58] <abattoir> Kamion: how can i help in doing that :) ?
[02:58] <Kamion> abattoir: I don't know, can you? look at the code :)
[02:58] <abattoir> Kamion: I have already looked at the code.
[02:58] <Kamion> might be easier to just have me do that bit though
[02:59] <KaiL_> I guess, the "CommunityEdgyIdeas"-Page needs to be Split into several pages to reduce conflic#ts
[02:59] <Kamion> since it's a major rearrangement touching bits of d-i
[02:59] <abattoir> d-i:debian-installer?
[02:59] <Kamion> abattoir: yes
[02:59] <Kamion> abattoir: I suppose you could be working on the UI code for the KDE frontend in the meantime
[03:00] <abattoir> Kamion: so how do you see the UI going?
[03:00] <iwj> Kamion, mdz: re firefox 1.5.0.4 into dapper-updates: I don't really think we have much of a choice so we should just do it ?
[03:00] <abattoir> something like my mockups?
[03:00] <Kamion> abattoir: I'd remove e-mail and display picture from that UI markup; they don't seem to belong there
[03:00] <iwj> (Last time we reviewed the patch, discovered that it was full of junk, and decided to proceed anyway.)
[03:00] <abattoir> Kamion: ok, i thought so :)
[03:00] <Kamion> (because the installer doesn't have anything to do with that stuff)
[03:01] <Kamion> abattoir: I'd try to keep it moderately consistent with ubiquity's KDE frontend, personally
[03:01] <abattoir> Kamion: also Riddell suggested that it was too 'stylised' so he asked me to send the mockup to mdy, which i did.
[03:01] <Kamion> really mdy? you sure he didn't mean mpt?
[03:01] <Kamion> mdy is a Canonical business type; mpt is our usability person
[03:01] <abattoir> Kamion: he said mdy was Canonical's usability person
[03:01] <Kamion> he misspoke
[03:01] <abattoir> Kamion: oh ok.
[03:02] <abattoir> Kamion: and about Stage 3?
[03:02] <abattoir> Kamion: do you think that is unnecessary?
[03:02] <Kamion> abattoir: I have no opinion on that; it's beyond the scope of oem-config at present
[03:03] <Kamion> kinda like a project in two totally separate pieces
[03:04] <abattoir> Kamion: ok. So i should start work on a KDE UI similar to ubiquity right?
[03:04] <pygi> Keybuk, poke :)
[03:04] <Kamion> abattoir: that's just how I'd approach it :)
[03:04] <abattoir> Kamion: thanks a lot :)
[03:05] <Kamion> I think I might try to glom all the bits of the oem-config gtk interface into one big glade file rather than the separate windows we have at present
[03:05] <Kamion> separate windows means the UI tends to jump around a lot
[03:05] <abattoir> Kamion: I'll hang around here, just tell me if you can when the backend is doen, or if i can be of any help :) 
[03:05] <sivang> Kamion: or use notebooks to do layering
[03:05] <Kamion> I may have a look at it this week if I finish the specifications I need to write
[03:05] <Kamion> sivang: indeed, that's what ubiquity does
[03:06] <Kamion> sivang: but that implies one big glade file
[03:06] <abattoir> Kamion: ok.
[03:06] <sivang> Kamion: right :)
[03:06] <Kamion> damnit, why do the people who do the screenshots for shots.osdir.com try hard to avoid the advanced partitioner?
[03:06] <\sh> KDEs advantage is that you can have notebooks (tabs) in one ui file and the widget forms in other files ;)
[03:07] <\sh> Kamion: because they don't know how to use the advanced part of the partitioner?
[03:07] <Kamion> \sh: doesn't really make a lot of difference if they're all in one package; the reason I had separate glade files was because they were in different packages, but that's turned out to be counterproductive
[03:08] <Kamion> \sh: that seems unlikely; they are just trying to present the simplest path. it's kind of unhelpful when you're trying to research partitioner UIs though
[03:08] <\sh> Kamion: well, the widget form itself will be an object of it's own...so you can handle it very dynamically
[03:08] <mdz> iwj: how does pitti feel about it?
[03:09] <Kamion> \sh: *shrug* no real benefit
[03:10] <\sh> Kamion: it has when you do it the right way...it's better then to try to fill in qt/kde code into gtk lines
[03:11] <Kamion> ok, can we please stop this conversation now? it is not helpful
[03:11] <Kamion> you don't know the code
[03:11] <\sh> Kamion: ubiquity? 
[03:11] <Kamion> oem-config
[03:12] <\sh> Kamion: no not oem-config, but ubiquity :)
[03:19] <sivang> \sh: heh, I found this to complement the link I've sent you yesterday - http://slashdot.org/articles/06/06/04/2151244.shtml
[03:20] <\sh> sivang: ah...I know that I forgot something...
[03:20] <\sh> brb
[03:23] <sivang> \sh: heh
[03:24] <izm99> if I want to use a custom program with gnome-volume-manager, how do I do that?  I checked the gnome-volume-preferences command and it passes "%h" (which turns out to be a dbus message) to gnome-volume-manager-gthumb.  I just want the directory....
[03:36] <izm99> aha.  found it.  `less /usr/bin/gnome-volume-manager-gthumb`  :)
[03:37] <izm99> "hal-get-property"
[03:39] <Riddell> mdz: can I upload this to dapper-updates? http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/guidance.diff
[03:39] <Riddell> I'll s/dapper/dapper-updates/ first of course
[03:40] <mdz> Riddell: sure, let me know when it's in the queue and I'll approve it
[03:52] <Keybuk> pygi: 'sup?
[03:52] <pygi> Keybuk, just wanted to know what's going to happen with n-m this release
[03:53] <pygi> is there gonna be any new upstream release or something?
[03:53] <Keybuk> pygi: I'm not the person to ask
[03:53] <pygi> Keybuk, hm,oki, who then? :)
[03:53] <Keybuk> I'm not going to suggest any further integration work for edgy
[03:54] <Keybuk> because I don't think n-m is mature enough, or, indeed, the Linux wireless stack is mature enough
[03:54] <Keybuk> so my gut is that the only n-m changes in edgy will be getting it up to date and roughly in sync with any Debian packages that materialise
[03:54] <pygi> ok, thanks for the answer :)
[03:54] <Keybuk> as to whether or not there's a new upstream release, you'd be best off asking upstream :)
[03:54] <pygi> indeed :P
[03:56] <iwj> mdz: pitti seems to have been assuming that we'd do it as a matter of course, but I haven't had specifically this conversation with him.
[03:56] <pygi> hm, just ran into this (considering i know we have one student working on samba configuring)
[03:56] <pygi> http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1386
[03:57] <iwj> I just had a conversation where he said `I'll send you some CVE's for the changelog' and I said `yes please'. 
[03:58] <mdz> iwj: it's a holiday for him today, I believe; let's talk about it tomorrow
[03:58] <Riddell> mdz: kde-guidance uploaded
[03:59] <Riddell> mdz: what's the plan for gnome in dapper-updates and should I look at putting kde 3.5.3 there?
[03:59] <ploum> hello
[04:00] <mdz> Riddell: depends on what's in it
[04:00] <mdz> Riddell: seb128 and dholbach uploaded the conservative parts of 2.14.3
[04:01] <bddebian> Howdy folks
[04:02] <Riddell> mdz: kde 3.5.3 hasn't been very conservative, so I think best to leave it then
[04:03] <iwj> mdz: Ahh. OK.
[04:03] <ploum> If I was seb128, I would have uploaded 2.14.3 with tons of bugs just before going on holliday
[04:08] <Kamion> let us be thankful that you are not ;)
[04:08] <bddebian> heh
[04:09] <mdke> is 2.14.3 even on the horizon yet? 2.14.2 was only released last week
[04:11] <\sh> ploum: lol...you mean improving the flying cars to fly even to the moon? ;)
[04:11] <ploum> \sh: far beyond !
[04:12] <ploum> You know, the kind of stories who begin with "In a galaxy far far away.."
[04:12] <ploum> ;-)
[04:12] <\sh> ploum: yes
[04:12] <jsgotangco> hey sabdfl
[04:12] <\sh> hi sabdfl
[04:12] <ajmitch> hello sabdfl 
[04:12] <ploum> hello
[04:13] <ajmitch> ploum: but will the flying car have a pony?
[04:13] <bddebian> Hello sabdfl :-)
[04:13] <ploum> ajmitch: yes but not yours
[04:13] <ajmitch> heh
[04:13] <ajmitch> how sad
[04:14] <zul> hi sabdfl 
[04:14] <sabdfl> hello all you freedom fighter
[04:14] <sabdfl> s
[04:14] <sivang> hey there sabdfl 
[04:14] <ploum> so for Edgy, we target the solar system. The entire galaxy for edgy+1   \sh, any idea of what will be next ?
[04:15] <thom> ploum: a galaxy far, far away
[04:15] <_ion> Well, the neighbour galaxies of course.
[04:15] <\sh> ploum: sure, it's been the rest..
[04:15] <ploum> of course..
[04:15] <ploum> so, now that we have the plans
[04:15] <_ion> After the whole universe, there are all the parallel universes.
[04:15] <highvoltage> multiverses
[04:15] <ajmitch> _ion: yes, multiverse
[04:15] <pygi> ploum, ergh, parallel universe ? :)
[04:15] <ogra> ploum, ubuntu works differently, you start in the universe far far away and work your way to the center of core-dev
[04:15] <pygi> _ion, you got it before me :P
[04:16] <ajmitch> ogra: where to from there?
[04:16] <\sh> ajmitch: linus best buddy is the next step to perfection ;)
[04:16] <ajmitch> \sh: nah, I'm a GNOME user ;)
[04:16] <pygi> gnomefiles* :)
[04:16] <\sh> ajmitch: see ;)
[04:17] <jsgotangco> we keep on looking forward to beyond our solar system yet we still don't know what lies beneath our earth and oceans maybe some organisms that need ubuntu love heh
[04:18] <ploum> aaarh ! too frustrating ! We are talking about conquering the whole universe, I can nearly feel it in my hand...
[04:18] <ploum> but I have to finish my thesis first
[04:18] <pygi> jsgotangco, indeed ;)
[04:18] <ploum> jsgotangco: proud member of ubuntu-deep-oceans local team
[04:19] <highvoltage> it will be harder to find ploum when he gets lost in the multiverse though.
[04:19] <jsgotangco> or ubuntu-middle-earth even!
[04:19] <bddebian> Tatooine
[04:19] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: already got that
[04:19] <pygi> We should really make that game that was proposed by one student for SoC
[04:19] <jsgotangco> ajmitch: no living in NZ doesn't apply :P
[04:20] <ploum> highvoltage: I'm never hard to find. Follow the bad jokes...
[04:20] <pygi> RPG where Ubuntu devs are "monsters" and you chase them down :P
[04:20] <bddebian> haha
[04:20] <ploum> must be a scary game
[04:20] <pygi> bddebian, was really proposed by someone :)
[04:20] <jsgotangco> i will definitely run when i get to face boss fabbione
[04:20] <bddebian> That's too funny
[04:20] <ploum> imagine : you are in a dark corridor.. little scary music and... suddenly !
[04:21] <ajmitch> jsgotangco: a wise choice
[04:21] <bddebian> jsgotangco: No kidding eh :-)
[04:21] <ploum> Awesome ! Awesome !
[04:21] <ploum> The terrible jdub monster with big eyes !
[04:21] <jsgotangco> that's easy to beat
[04:21] <ploum> (the "awesome" was the noise of the monster of course)
[04:22] <_ion> The boss monster has to be sabdfl, naturally. You'd fight him in space.
[04:22] <jsgotangco> you just need a bit spear with a shield bearing the KDE logo
[04:22] <jsgotangco> s/bit/big
[04:23] <bddebian> Yeah, nice going pygi :-)
[04:23] <Hobbsee> hehe
[04:23] <ajmitch> pygi: because you want to drag us all away from hacking on edgy
[04:23] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: 
[04:23] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: and this is a problem?
[04:23] <pygi> ajmitch, lol :)
[04:23] <bddebian> Is Edgy open already?
[04:23] <pygi> bddebian, nop I think :)
[04:24] <Hobbsee> bddebian: silly!  you'll have to wait another two days for it to open now!
[04:24] <_ion> Note to self: ask about Edgy tomorrow.
[04:25] <Hobbsee> bddebian: now dont make me get out my pitchfork :P
[04:25] <bddebian> heh
[04:25] <bddebian> TB Meeting tomorrow at 20:00?
[04:25] <jsgotangco> bddebian: you've been playing too much Elder Scrolls lately
[04:25] <pygi> bddebian, yup, If I am not mistaken
[04:25] <pygi> lemme check
[04:25] <bddebian> jsgotangco: Outlander ;-)
[04:26] <pygi> bddebian, yes :)
[04:58] <ploum> back to work
[04:58] <ploum> bye
[05:20] <mdz> Kamion: I presume you'll deal with accepting this kickseed upload yourself?
[05:25] <Kamion> mdz: oh, yeah, can do - infinity said over the weekend that there was some problem with binary uploads to -updates so I was waiting to hear that that had been resolved
[05:30] <mdz> Kamion: oh, hadn't heard about that
[05:33] <jono> hey
[05:38] <Kamion> thank Christ for that
[05:53] <mdz> Kamion: did Keybuk tell you about relocating the seed branches?
[05:54] <Kamion> mdz: yes
[05:54] <Kamion> waiting for Tuesday's LP rollout and a firewall fix in the DC to make it all work right
[05:55] <Kamion> mdz: I'm very tempted to propose the no-more-devfs spec for edgy
[05:55] <Kamion> if there's any release where it might actually get cleared out of the way, it's this one
[06:03] <tritium> I'm installing from desktop CD behind a corporate firewall, and it appears the "Configuring apt..." step isn't going to timeout.  Is this true?
[06:04] <mdz> Kamion: as you like
[06:08] <Kamion> tritium: it will timeout *eventually* - may take a while though
[06:09] <sladen> Kamion++
[06:09] <tritium> Kamion: okay, thanks, it finally did.  Now same thing scanning the mirror.  If I set the proxy preference in the LiveCD session, will ubiquity use it?
[06:10] <Kamion> unfortunately not; there are open bugs about it
[06:10] <bddebian> Heya tritium
[06:10] <Kamion> if you preseed mirror/http/proxy, it might honour that
[06:10] <Kamion> (not 100% sure)
[06:10] <tritium> No problem.  Thanks :)
[06:11] <tritium> hi there bddebian
[06:11] <Kamion> but it's more likely than any other option
[06:11] <Kamion> I'd be interested to hear about it if preseeding mirror/http/proxy does work; you can e.g. boot the desktop CD and just put 'mirror/http/proxy=http://your.proxy:8080/' on the kernel command line
[06:12] <tritium> hmm, let me write that down so I can try it...
[06:14] <tritium> I'll try that Kamion, and report back to you later on.
[06:21] <\sh> jesus, one upload
[06:22] <bddebian> ??
[06:22] <\sh> kde-guidance ;) 
[06:23] <bddebian> Ah :-)
[06:25] <Kinnison> Hi guys
[06:25] <ajmitch> hello
[06:25] <Kinnison> just thought i'd warn you
[06:26] <Kinnison> Then I'll get something on the job of re-processing the incorrectly rejected binary uploads
[06:26] <bddebian> Hello Kinnison
[06:26] <Kinnison> Sorry it has taken so long to resolve this
[06:26] <bddebian> You should be ;-P
[06:26] <bddebian> j/k
[06:27] <bddebian> Doh
[06:30] <bddebian> Oh, mmm, vanilla :-)
[06:30] <sivang> hehe
[06:34] <robertj> isn't it a bad idea to send out links to non-locked wiki pages to announce?
[06:35] <sladen> robertj: only be people trash them
[06:36] <sladen> s/be/if/
[06:36] <sfllaw> Hmm.  I lsot e-mail and I can't get it back.
[06:36] <sfllaw> That's lousy.
[06:40] <Kinnison> heh
[06:42] <tritium> Kamion: I tried it as you suggested, but it does not work.
[06:44] <jsgotangco> good night
[06:46] <Kamion> tritium: oh well
[06:46] <Kamion> thanks for trying
[06:49] <tritium> no problem, Kamion.  Thanks for the suggestion!
[06:50] <sivang> sfllaw: don't you have a backup ? :)
[06:51] <sfllaw> sivang: The machine seems to have fallen off the Internet.
[06:52] <sivang> sfllaw: ah, I see so no access at all? :-/
[07:02] <Treenaks> 1
[07:02] <ajmitch> 2
[07:02] <pitti> Treenaks: 0!
[07:02] <ajmitch> pitti!
[07:02] <pitti> hey ajmitch 
[07:02] <Treenaks> pitti: yeah, forgot the 'alt' there :)
[07:04] <\sh> frohe pfingsten pitti
[07:04] <pitti> \sh: gleichfalls!
[07:05] <Treenaks> Tip of the day: don't go to Rome on weekends like this, it's packed ;)
[07:06] <\sh> Treenaks: no wonder...all those catholic people want to see a german pope ;), we are pope and we are soccer ;)
[07:06] <ajmitch> hehe
[07:08] <Treenaks> \sh: all you need now is the pope to bless the German team ;)
[07:08] <\sh> Treenaks: hehe...oh well, germany won't win the championships...never 
[07:09] <Treenaks> \sh: I don't really care who wins, as long as it isn't the Dutch
[07:09] <\sh> join #ubuntu-anti-soccer
[07:09] <Treenaks> ;)
[07:10] <tseng> Treenaks: i thought you were dutch
[07:10] <Treenaks> tseng: I am, but I hate football/soccer ;)
[07:10] <zul> i think the americans are going to win ;)
[07:11] <\sh> women beach volleyball is the sport...sitting in front of the tv and watching the sexy players ;)
[07:13] <mjg59> \sh: Please don't alienate community members
[07:13] <\sh> ogra: hey, i was born in dortmund, so I hate soccer by law..there are only 10 types of people in dortmund, soccer lover or soccer hate
[07:13] <\sh> mjg59: alienate?
[07:13] <Treenaks> \sh: with sexist comments, probably
[07:14] <\sh> mjg59: whom?
[07:14] <ajmitch> \sh: we've been known to have ladies around these parts..
[07:16] <\sh> my apologies to all ladies in #ubuntu-devel 
[07:16] <mjg59> \sh: Objectifying members of a group is a good way of alienating other members of that same group - I'm sure that's not what you actually meant, but it helps to perpetuate a vague atmosphere of this as a boys club, rather than an inclusive community
[07:18] <\sh> mjg59: agreed
[07:19] <mjg59> Let's keep this place welcoming :)
[07:19] <_ion> Are there a lot of female developers who play beach volleyball professionally?
[07:19] <LaserJock> wow, that's a niche group if ever I've seen one :-)
[07:20] <\sh> looks like that I need to buy some beers 
[07:20] <highvoltage> JaneW plays volleyball well.
[07:21] <\sh> highvoltage: btw...how is the weather down in za?
[07:23] <highvoltage> \sh: fabulous. we're having an indian summer. the last three days have been the best weather we've been having the last two years. sunny, no wind, no clouds... just right.
[07:26] <\sh> highvoltage: jealous...but at least I found my biltong dealer ;)
[07:53] <dieman> 
[07:53] <dieman> ~/
[08:01] <Keybuk> sabdfl: ping?
[08:23] <G0SUB> pitti: hello!
[08:25] <pitti> hello G0SUB 
[08:25] <G0SUB> pitti: PM?
[08:25] <pitti> G0SUB: mail perhaps? I have some RL stuff to do right now (I'm on holiday today)
[08:26] <G0SUB> pitti: that's fine. see you tomorrow then :)
[08:26] <pitti> G0SUB: great!
[08:26] <G0SUB> pitti: I have started writing down my design ideas
[08:27] <pitti> G0SUB: oh, nice; mvo and I shall look at it tomorrow
[08:27] <G0SUB> pitti: that'd be great. I have a lot of things to discuss with you guys
[08:28] <G0SUB> pitti: see you tomorrow then :)
[08:51] <sivang> ah, good wifi at last
[09:26] <tuhl> hi all 
[09:27] <bddebian> Hello tuhl
[09:27] <tuhl> is there any long term strategy for replacing the gnome system tools within ubuntu?
[09:28] <Burgwork> tuhl, what do you suggest replacing them with?
[09:28] <bddebian> kde system tools ;-P
[09:28] <Burgwork> lol
[09:29] <tuhl> as far as I see these tools are not maintained
[09:29] <mjg59> tuhl: No
[09:29] <Keybuk> tuhl: there is not
[09:29] <mjg59> tuhl: If there is effort that would go into reimplementation, it should instead go into those tools
[09:30] <Keybuk> please feel free to write a specification and register it in our spec tracker about what kind of strategies are available
[09:30] <Keybuk> if you're up for doing the work, so much the better
[09:30] <Burgwork> tuhl, yet another rewrite is madness
[09:30] <bddebian> tuhl: What makes you say they are unmaintained?
[09:31] <tuhl> I think the area of config tools is one of the weakest point within current distros
[09:31] <Burgwork> yes, because each distro writes their own
[09:31] <tuhl> bddebian: no news @http://www.gnome.org/projects/gst/news.html
[09:32] <Burgwork> if they polled and worked on one for each DE, we would be in a much better place
[09:32] <Burgwork> s/polled/pooled/
[09:34] <sivang> tuhl: those tools are maintianed by Carlos Garnacho, if you take a peek at the code base there you you can see why it would be to reimplement them
[09:35] <sivang> tuhl: *non trivial
[09:36] <tuhl> What is Marks opinion on that topic?
[09:36] <tseng> you could ask mark
[09:36] <tseng> ah, he's left
[09:37] <Burgwork> tuhl, I see commits to gnome-system-tools from 4 days ago
[09:37] <sivang> Burgwork: carlos is working hard on these tools , thats no surprise
[09:38] <sivang> Keybuk: would you know what would cause my eth0 (non wifi) to stop working every 5 minutes and force me to manuall run dhclient ?
[09:38] <Keybuk> no
[09:38] <sivang> (I installed n-m few days ago, but then saw how it configures dead wifi access and stops my work so I purged it and everything extra it dependend on)
[09:39] <sivang> weird
[09:40] <sivang> man, it just happened again
[09:41] <sivang> hmm, at least when I leave it idle it doesn't halt
[09:45] <giftnudel_> sivang: yes, dhcp?
[09:46] <sivang> giftnudel_: what about it?
[09:46] <giftnudel_> may that be a cause
[09:47] <giftnudel_> I have a similar problem, I get messages in syslog showing an attempt to reconfigure every 300 sec
[09:47] <giftnudel_> sivang: now I wonder why every 300 sec
[09:48] <giftnudel_> sivang: I thought it was the dhcp server, but it sounds like it could be my problem
[09:50] <sivang> giftnudel_: interesting, that seems to be the problem here as well.
[09:53] <sivang> giftnudel_: yes, I can confirm now. that's interesting, I also got ipw2200: Firmware error detected. one time
[09:54] <giftnudel_> me too
[09:54] <giftnudel_> sivang: I also have an ipw 2200 wifi
[09:56] <sivang> giftnudel_: I wonder how to make that recurring dhcp attempt stop
[09:59] <giftnudel_> sivang: yes
[09:59] <sivang> giftnudel_: seems that the addresses are leased for no more then max 300secs each time, that was causes it to redhcp every time
[09:59] <\sh> killall -9 dhclient{3}?
[10:00] <giftnudel_> sivang: yes, exactly
[10:00] <highvoltage> hi Seveas 
[10:00] <giftnudel_> sivang: but why is that overridden and not taken from the server
[10:01] <Seveas> hi highvoltage 
[10:03] <giftnudel_> sivang: funny, I see something funny, I have a request every minute!
[10:04] <sivang> 22O3R
[10:06] <giftnudel_> sivang:  I have n-m .6.2 installed, I think it was always there
[10:06] <\sh> send dhcp-lease-time 3600; I commented this in ... I think that helped me a lot
[10:06] <giftnudel_> sivang: Jun  5 22:04:00 localhost NetworkManager: <information>^IDHCP daemon state is now 3 (renew) for interface eth1
[10:06] <giftnudel_> Jun  5 22:04:00 localhost dhclient: bound to 192.168.1.119 -- renewal in 241 seconds.
[10:06] <giftnudel_> so for me it's n-m
[10:06] <giftnudel_> it really tries to do that every 5 min
[10:07] <giftnudel_> sivang: I don't think I have it at home though, so maybe that's the default, if the server doesn't specify anything?
[10:07] <sivang> \sh: crap, is this a bug  ?
[10:07] <\sh> sivang: sure it is..but it was there even without n-m
[10:08] <giftnudel_> yes, so it's dhclient?
[10:08] <\sh> sivang: but I wasn't sure if it was me, my network, my router, or the installation
[10:08] <sivang> \sh: sorry for the other ping on -motu, I am just keeping crashing
[10:08] <giftnudel_> \sh: I now think it's the installation
[10:08] <sivang> \sh: also that ipw firmware error makes it restart the interface every few minutes
[10:09] <\sh> sivang: I have atheros :)
[10:09] <\sh> sivang: with n-m it gives me every few seconds a rescan
[10:10] <sivang> ah, I see, maybe it due to the heavy dhcping
[10:11] <\sh> sivang: no...because of something with atheros and wpa supplicant :(
[10:14] <sivang> \sh: man, uncommented that line and got longer lease time at least
[10:15] <giftnudel_> sivang, \sh: so where is the problem now, server problem because it doesn't specify a lease time?
[10:16] <\sh> giftnudel_: I would say so :) or sending a lease time which the server doesn't like...
[10:16] <\sh> giftnudel_: but I have a linksys with linux on board, so I wonder if it's really a dhcpd issue on the router
[10:17] <giftnudel_> \sh: hm, I have some router here, I will have a look at it on wednesday, so then I can see, if it can provide a lease time
[10:18] <\sh> giftnudel_: I would need to connect my laptop via cable to it..that's a nono right now ;)
[10:18] <giftnudel_> ;)
[10:19] <\sh> giftnudel_: drinking beer listening to manowar and trying to convince people to not bring in bots
[10:21] <giftnudel_> well, the config file helps me a lot
[10:22] <sivang> \sh: well, the dhcp problem is gone 
[10:22] <\sh> giftnudel_: so it's the lease time...now we need to find out, if it's the server or the client ;)
[10:24] <giftnudel_> I will find this out, for sure
[10:24] <giftnudel_> \sh: but earliest on wednesday, if not friday ...
[10:25] <giftnudel_> \sh: if you don't have access to the stuff, you need to wait for the passwords ;)
[10:25] <\sh> giftnudel_: next weekend for me :)
[10:26] <giftnudel_> ok, bye then
[10:29] <\sh> giftnudel_: I'll drink some more beer to sleep well ;)
[11:34] <sivang> \sh: I htink it's the server causing the problems
[11:34] <sivang> \sh: I've done some testing now with xp, same behavior for me :-/
[11:35] <\sh> sivang: hmm...what router?
[11:36] <sivang> \sh: could also be that my network device got b0rked 
[11:36] <sivang> man, I had to ifupdown just ot be able to complete the sentence
[11:37] <sivang> \sh: it's a debian machine, my flat mate set it up
[11:37] <\sh> sivang: check the config of the dhcpd of your gateway
[11:37] <sivang> \sh: could a hardware b0rk cause this as well ?
[11:38] <\sh> sivang: then we have the same hardware b0rk ;)
[11:38] <\sh> sivang: which can't be ;)
[11:38] <\sh> sivang: but I bet, it's the wireless cable ;)
[11:40] <sivang> \sh: you mean, wifi is causing trouble ?
[11:40] <sivang> and right about the same hardware b0rk ;-)
[11:40] <\sh> sivang: dont
[11:40] <\sh> don't think so...client or server bug, nothing else
[11:41] <\sh> despite the normal glitches in wlan chipsets and not working properly on windows^Wlinux *cough*
[11:42] <sivang> seems like a client bug, btw - I'm still getting the network halts even thouhg I uncommented the lease time override time
[11:43] <sivang> I wonder why I did not see this a day ago
[11:43] <sivang> it started only today, and there were no router changes to my understanding
[11:43] <sivang> and only with the laptop
[11:43] <sivang> weird
[11:44] <\sh> sivang: as I said, I have this blackouts every few minutes, and it's n-m or wpa-supplicant.if i'm connecting via interfaces it works ( i have plain mac address verification )
[11:45] <\sh> sivang: this said, I don't need wpa supplicant
[11:45] <sivang> this is what I get in the kernel log:
[11:46] <\sh> oh wow...300 questions about "how can I get ubuntu with xgl to work properly" 
[11:46] <sivang> \sh: is there a way to completely disable the wlan chip ? (it's always lighed)
[11:47] <sivang> \sh: where?
[11:47] <\sh> sivang: kubuntu-de channel
[11:47] <\sh> sivang: should support your laptop...I have a Fn key for that which works ;) it disables my bluetooth and wlan chip
[11:49] <sivang> \sh: I disabled it now for good, funny on other times it just stopped after I pressed the Fn key and cam eback after a couple of secs.
[11:51] <\sh> wtf is ebuntu?
[11:51] <crimsun> E 0.17 snap?
[11:51] <mdke> yes
[11:52] <crimsun> generated by checkinstall for great eyestab justice iirc
[11:52] <\sh> oh wow
[11:53] <\sh> I know, I'll create Fluxubuntu ;)
[11:53] <\sh> derived from fedora and suse packages via alien seeded into ubuntu-server ;)
[11:53] <_ion> xbuntu  a version of Ubuntu with just plain X, no wm!
[11:53] <_ion> sh: :-D
[11:54] <\sh> then blubunut derieved from gentoo with a debian package which installs first ebuild then emerge is doing an emerge sync and emerge world ;)
[11:54] <mdke> that would rock
[11:54] <\sh> with blackbox as wm manager
[11:55] <\sh> sure it will rock ;)
[11:55] <_ion> I would buy ten of those.
[11:55] <sivang> \sh: ah, okay, I now see that my problem was still apparent becuae I use a bridge machine (another ubuntu) which also is effected by this bug :-D
[11:55] <\sh> sivang: fun ;)
[11:55] <_ion> w2buntu with web 2.0!
[11:56] <sivang> funny you said that _ion 
[11:56] <\sh> ajubuntax 
[11:56] <\sh> ubuntu with ajax wm 
[11:56] <\sh> sivang: btw...I read the tim o'reilly article
[11:57] <\sh> it's very true what he said about the changes of the IT market and the change of companies
[11:57] <sivang> me and fsd
[11:57] <LaserJock> ibuntu the ion3 derivative (alternatively the Ubuntu derivative done by Apple) :-)
[11:58] <\sh> LaserJock: ah...it's already released..they just forgot the ubuntu in their release name...apple mac os x it's named ;)
[11:58] <LaserJock> \sh: they must have done any ugly hack then. I'm running OS X atm and it doesn't seem nearly as polished as Dapper ;-)
[11:59] <_ion> How about making ${package}buntu for each package in main, restricted, universe and multiverse? In those Ubuntu derivative the package would be installed by default.
[11:59] <_ion> s
[11:59] <\sh> LaserJock: oh you need the uber application...
[11:59] <\sh> _ion: please write a spec for the paris dev summit ;)
[12:00] <\sh> _ion: but I think we can agree on that here and now ;)
[12:00] <LaserJock> I'm sure we could add some mass checkinstall capability to soyuz ;-)
[12:01] <\sh> LaserJock: we show opensuse how to create an open build service the right way..checkinstall and alien ;)
[12:01] <sivang> \sh: true, but still, thinking that becoming web 2.0 complient could turn a company to be the super uber company is way high
[12:02] <\sh> sivang: it won't there are things in our world where web 2.0 is not usable for..
[12:03] <_ion> sh: The people who actually use the term "web 2.0" wouldn't agree with you.