| === mdke starts rolling out books | ||
| LaserJock | go Matthew go! | 12:07 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | books books books!!! | 12:07 |
| LaserJock | :-) | 12:07 |
| mdke | Madpilot: my titles are your titles vary a little bit | 12:09 |
| Madpilot | how so? | 12:09 |
| mdke | my pt_BR is http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/pt_BR/index.html | 12:09 |
| mdke | Guia do Desktop Ubuntu | 12:10 |
| mdke | yours is Guia Desktop Ubuntu | 12:10 |
| Madpilot | ah... any idea which is more correct? | 12:10 |
| mdke | that's fine obviously, but I'm getting a bit confused between all these different types of portuguese | 12:10 |
| mdke | it's going to be hard to tell them apart on the store | 12:10 |
| Madpilot | hmm | 12:10 |
| mdke | do you know where your strings come from? | 12:11 |
| Madpilot | for the UDG ones, from bookinfo.xml via robotgeek's script | 12:11 |
| mdke | i can't see that string in there | 12:12 |
| mdke | ah, it's in the omf file | 12:13 |
| === mdke shrugs | ||
| Madpilot | ah, sorry. Yeah, it's from the omf | 12:14 |
| Madpilot | should I change that pt_BR string on the UDG cover? | 12:14 |
| mdke | nope, if it's in the omf it must be fine | 12:14 |
| === mdke publishes | ||
| Madpilot | OK | 12:15 |
| Madpilot | bunch of KDG covers going up now | 12:15 |
| mdke | Madpilot: can you upload the english ones too pls? | 12:15 |
| Madpilot | sure | 12:15 |
| mdke | thx | 12:15 |
| Madpilot | thought they were already in the directory, but maybe not | 12:15 |
| mdke | could be | 12:16 |
| Madpilot | no, they're not, actually | 12:17 |
| Madpilot | KDG it, es & pt_BR covers up | 12:17 |
| Madpilot | again, I can't get anything intelligible out of the ko files :( | 12:18 |
| mdke | damn | 12:18 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: ping | 12:18 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, hi | 12:18 |
| Burgundavia | Madpilot: did you get my quer? | 12:18 |
| Madpilot | Burgundavia, yeah, sorry, just overlooked it. One sec. | 12:19 |
| LaserJock | mdke: hmm, that gender convention question is interesting | 12:25 |
| mdke | yep | 12:25 |
| LaserJock | mdke: seems like it would be a good idea to have a "Translation Notes:" section at the beginning of the doc | 12:26 |
| mdke | a visible one, or an invisible one for the translators? | 12:26 |
| LaserJock | visible | 12:26 |
| mdke | sounds doable | 12:27 |
| Madpilot | mdke, English covers up as UDG_C.png, etc | 12:27 |
| LaserJock | the point was that some things might need to be explained to the reader about the translational style | 12:27 |
| mdke | Madpilot: merci | 12:28 |
| mdke | shit my wifi is going cranky again | 12:28 |
| LaserJock | Madpilot should really get a gold star for the covers :-) | 12:28 |
| mdke | yeah, they look great | 12:29 |
| Madpilot | thanks | 12:29 |
| mdke | check em out on the storefront | 12:30 |
| mdke | http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc | 12:30 |
| LaserJock | oh nice, it has the free download on there | 12:31 |
| LaserJock | hehe, I like the "Publisher: Matthew East" on the Kubuntu italian DG :-) | 12:32 |
| mdke | oh shit | 12:33 |
| mdke | yeah, tell me if you see things like that | 12:33 |
| mdke | it autoinserted it and sometimes I will have forgotten to remove it | 12:33 |
| crimsun | I do like that lulu uses opt-in for spam^H^Hnewsletter | 12:33 |
| LaserJock | mdke: that's the only one | 12:34 |
| mdke | cool, fixed | 12:35 |
| LaserJock | another disaster averted ;-) | 12:35 |
| LaserJock | hehe, I can't wait for the first lulu.com bug on LP ;-) | 12:36 |
| LaserJock | mdke: looks like italian UDG doesn't have the language listed | 12:38 |
| mdke | oh, pain | 12:38 |
| mdke | thanks | 12:38 |
| Madpilot | mdke, Server Guide covers in en & pt_BR up | 12:38 |
| mdke | thanks Madpilot | 12:39 |
| LaserJock | mdke: neither does the "Panduan Destop Ubuntu" whatever that is | 12:40 |
| mdke | LaserJock: your indonesian is almost as bad as your korean | 12:41 |
| LaserJock | hehe | 12:42 |
| LaserJock | mdke: actually a lot of them are missing the Language: part | 12:42 |
| mdke | meh | 12:42 |
| mdke | damn | 12:43 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_C.png & Packaging_pt_BR.png both up | 12:44 |
| mdke | nice, so we're just missing the crazy font ones | 12:44 |
| Madpilot | never mind, I'm an idiot. We need Packaging_sv, not pt_Br | 12:44 |
| LaserJock | \o/ | 12:44 |
| Madpilot | that's the only guide the Brazillians *haven't* gotten around to translating yet, it seems :) | 12:46 |
| mdke | yeah, they are crazy those brazilians | 12:46 |
| LaserJock | grrr | 12:47 |
| mdke | koreans aren't bad either | 12:47 |
| mdke | translation machines | 12:47 |
| LaserJock | I'll have to go down there and crack the whip ;-) | 12:47 |
| Madpilot | yeah, except that I can't get intelligible strings out of the ko files, or the Chinese ones... | 12:47 |
| Madpilot | anyway, Packaging_sv.png is up | 12:47 |
| mdke | getting it | 12:47 |
| mdke | Madpilot: is it the script that has the problem with the chinese fonts, or inkscape? | 12:48 |
| Madpilot | my whole system, it looks like | 12:48 |
| mdke | did you try copying the strings from help.u.c? | 12:48 |
| Madpilot | not yet - I'd try that | 12:48 |
| mdke | man the packaging guide is a snip at $6.29 | 12:50 |
| mdke | I wonder if Lulu thinks it is lower quality than the others | 12:50 |
| Madpilot | hmm, where is the non-English stuff at help.u.c, mdke? | 12:50 |
| mdke | Madpilot: substitute C in the url for the language code (zh_CN, ko) | 12:50 |
| Madpilot | ah | 12:50 |
| mdke | or if you want the index, index.zh_CN.html | 12:51 |
| === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | wtf? gnome-panel just went nuts on me... | 12:51 |
| === Madpilot [n=brian@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | ...and again. Hopefully it's settled down now... :| | 12:52 |
| Madpilot | I'm going to re-install ubuntu-desktop and that mass of non-English fonts I always delete, see if that gets me useful Chinese & Korean display | 12:54 |
| mdke | ah, possibly | 12:54 |
| mdke | LaserJock: so which are missing languages? | 12:56 |
| mdke | Italian Desktop Guide has it, at least in my control panel | 12:56 |
| LaserJock | Ubuntus paketeringguide | 12:57 |
| LaserJock | Guia para Servidores Ubuntu | 12:57 |
| mdke | those both have it in my control panel | 12:57 |
| mdke | are you sure? | 12:57 |
| LaserJock | Guia Kubuntu Desktop | 12:58 |
| mdke | must be a bug | 12:58 |
| mdke | stupid lulu | 12:58 |
| LaserJock | it's blank here | 12:58 |
| mdke | yeah, I see the problem | 12:58 |
| === mdke files a bug :D | ||
| LaserJock | yay! | 12:59 |
| Madpilot | does Lulu actually have a bugzilla or something similar? | 12:59 |
| LaserJock | or a Mattzilla ;-) | 01:00 |
| mdke | Madpilot: forum | 01:01 |
| Madpilot | close enough | 01:01 |
| Madpilot | OK, reinstalling that 100Mb of non-eng fonts has given me useable ko & zh fonts | 01:02 |
| mdke | \o/, as LaserJock would say | 01:02 |
| Madpilot | and made a giant mess of my font listings again, but whatever... | 01:02 |
| mdke | nice one | 01:02 |
| LaserJock | I learned \o/ not too long ago | 01:03 |
| LaserJock | I think it's great | 01:03 |
| mdke | me too | 01:03 |
| === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_zh_CN.png & UDG_ko.png both up | 01:07 |
| mdke | oh, rock. Now to find out which guide is guide | 01:08 |
| LaserJock | hehe | 01:09 |
| === mdke gives up trying to find UDG_ko | ||
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/KDG_ko.png | 01:12 |
| Madpilot | mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_ko.png | 01:13 |
| mdke | i found the image, just not the book | 01:13 |
| mdke | I will go by process of elimination | 01:13 |
| LaserJock | mdke: so lulu.com/ubuntu-doc is ready for people to start ordering? | 01:14 |
| mdke | LaserJock: hope so. You think we should order a final test book? | 01:14 |
| LaserJock | no, I was just wondering when I could tell my Grandpa to go pick up a copy of the PG ;-) | 01:15 |
| mdke | Madpilot: something is wrong with the UDG_zh_CN.png (it has a massive Ubuntu logo coming out the right hand side | 01:15 |
| Madpilot | mdke, I hit the wrong button in Inkscape. Just a sec. | 01:16 |
| mdke | np | 01:17 |
| Madpilot | new UDG_zh_CN.png up | 01:17 |
| mdke | ah, stupid lulu can't handle the fonts on the spine. Oh well | 01:18 |
| Madpilot | for the non-Latin alphabet stuff? | 01:19 |
| mdke | yeah, it just comes up blank I think | 01:20 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_ko.png | 01:20 |
| mdke | no biggie | 01:20 |
| mdke | man that's hot: http://www.lulu.com/content/324256 | 01:22 |
| LaserJock | hmm, what is that? | 01:23 |
| LaserJock | is it the PG? | 01:23 |
| mdke | not wholly sure | 01:23 |
| mdke | I think it is Chinese Desktop Guide | 01:24 |
| Madpilot | mdke, Language string is blank there too | 01:24 |
| Madpilot | that's ko | 01:24 |
| Madpilot | Korean | 01:24 |
| mdke | sure? | 01:24 |
| Madpilot | actually, no, it's Chinese. Sorry | 01:24 |
| mdke | I think the ones with "UBuntu" are chinese | 01:24 |
| LaserJock | I was trying to figure out by page number, but it's hard to tell | 01:24 |
| mdke | korean packaging guide now up | 01:24 |
| Madpilot | yeah, the ko ones are pure Korean script, the Chinese ones are mixed for some reason | 01:24 |
| LaserJock | \o/ I can't read it but it is cool :-) | 01:25 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ko.png | 01:27 |
| mdke | no wonder I can't find the korean desktop guide, it isn't there | 01:27 |
| LaserJock | how many translations did the server guide get done in? | 01:28 |
| mdke | must have forgotten to upload it | 01:28 |
| mdke | LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations | 01:28 |
| LaserJock | ah great | 01:28 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_zh_CN.png | 01:29 |
| Madpilot | which is, I think, the last of the covers for now? | 01:30 |
| mdke | I think you're right | 01:30 |
| Madpilot | yay | 01:30 |
| mdke | Madpilot: thanks so much | 01:30 |
| Madpilot | no problem. | 01:31 |
| Madpilot | for next time, we need to get robotgeek to finish his script, it works only for the UDG omf files right now | 01:31 |
| mdke | right. | 01:31 |
| mdke | there are likely to be more languages to come :) | 01:31 |
| Madpilot | during Dapper, or for Edgy? (do we keep publishing translations during the life of the release? | 01:32 |
| mdke | yeah, more for Dapper | 01:32 |
| Madpilot | OK. Keep me posted. I should also write up a short howto on producing the covers, and stick a bunch of the SVG files on the wiki somewhere | 01:33 |
| mdke | Madpilot: will do. | 01:35 |
| === mdke just uploading last book | ||
| LaserJock | mwuahahaha | 01:36 |
| LaserJock | that was my "doc team rules... and will take over the world" laugh :-) | 01:37 |
| mdke | we are pretty badass, it has to be said | 01:37 |
| LaserJock | heck yeah | 01:37 |
| Madpilot | yay us! ;) | 01:38 |
| mdke | .... and I'm spent | 01:39 |
| mdke | no idea how many combinations of korean covers and book I've just uploaded | 01:39 |
| mdke | let's hope the right ones | 01:39 |
| === LaserJock feels his head deflate as he looks at all the crap he wants to do during edgy | ||
| mdke | hehe | 01:40 |
| Madpilot | mdke, might want to ping one of the ko translators for a sanity check :) | 01:40 |
| crimsun | "wants to" or "has to"? | 01:40 |
| crimsun | I haven't even had time to spec out what I'd like in Edgy | 01:40 |
| mdke | will do | 01:40 |
| LaserJock | crimsun: I could always pull an \sh but "wants to" is starting to turn into "has to" for sure. | 01:41 |
| Madpilot | mdke, all the prices in Lulu seem to still be listed as "from $0.00"? | 01:41 |
| mdke | Madpilot: yeah, it must be because you can download them for free | 01:42 |
| Madpilot | ah | 01:42 |
| LaserJock | that's so cool | 01:42 |
| mdke | slightly confusing, but still | 01:42 |
| Madpilot | mdke, can we change the order the items are listed in? Put the English translations first, say? | 01:43 |
| LaserJock | yeah and group them by doc | 01:43 |
| LaserJock | gosh we are picky | 01:44 |
| Madpilot | heh | 01:44 |
| mdke | that would be very nice, but I'm not sure | 01:44 |
| Madpilot | OK, just a thought | 01:44 |
| mdke | oh great, we can | 01:45 |
| mdke | more than one column too, if we want | 01:45 |
| LaserJock | cool | 01:46 |
| mdke | how to order languages? | 01:46 |
| mdke | and do I sort by language first, or by book? | 01:47 |
| Madpilot | by book, I'd say | 01:47 |
| LaserJock | hmm, good question | 01:48 |
| mdke | so all the UDGs first, then all the KDGs, etc? | 01:48 |
| Madpilot | I think so | 01:48 |
| LaserJock | I'd say book, but then it would makes it harder for people wanting to look at all material in their language | 01:48 |
| === mdke hmms | ||
| Madpilot | UDG-KDG-XDG-Server-Packaging? | 01:48 |
| LaserJock | yeah, yeah. put me last ;p | 01:49 |
| mdke | for now, I'm going to do it by language | 01:50 |
| LaserJock | I guess it would come down to this, do you think people will want to look for a particular doc or for what's available in their language? | 01:50 |
| mdke | I can't be bothered to work out which is which of the koreans again | 01:50 |
| Madpilot | mdke, fair enough ;) | 01:50 |
| LaserJock | hehe, that's a good rationale | 01:50 |
| mdke | http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc | 01:50 |
| mdke | so hot | 01:51 |
| Madpilot | looks great | 01:51 |
| LaserJock | mdke: sabdfl needs that URL :-) | 01:52 |
| mdke | we'll send him a free book or something ;) | 01:53 |
| Madpilot | so does The Fridge | 01:53 |
| mdke | I'll send a few emails, after checking with the translators that everything is ok | 01:53 |
| LaserJock | mdke: we should have the doc team sign it before we send it to him ;-) | 01:53 |
| mdke | aww | 01:53 |
| LaserJock | Rock Stars ;-) | 01:54 |
| LaserJock | hahaha | 01:54 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] : Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format:http://www.l | ||
| LaserJock | have other distros done anything like this? I think it is quite a cool idea | 01:56 |
| Madpilot | ...bloody character limit in /topic... | 01:56 |
| LaserJock | hehe, we could probably ditch the Next meeting: bit for now | 01:56 |
| LaserJock | or at least put a date | 01:57 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | there | 01:57 |
| LaserJock | hmm, anybody know what the propsed Ubuntu Reference Manual would be about? | 01:59 |
| Burgundavia | LaserJock: reference manual? | 01:59 |
| mdke | no idea, it's bhuvan's idea | 02:00 |
| LaserJock | Burgundavia: it's on the meeting agenda | 02:00 |
| LaserJock | there are a few ideas I had but since I'm doing the Developer's Reference I don't think I'll have time in Edgy :( | 02:01 |
| LaserJock | what did you guys think about the "why don't you use QA like ubuntuguide.org" bug comment? | 02:03 |
| mdke | I didn't see that | 02:04 |
| mdke | fortunately :) | 02:04 |
| LaserJock | it was at the end of that fax bug | 02:05 |
| LaserJock | "In contrast, I find the Ubuntu documentation unfriendly, overly technical, and frustrating to find what I want." | 02:06 |
| mdke | see ot | 02:06 |
| mdke | it | 02:06 |
| === mdke sighs | ||
| LaserJock | I'm wondering if this guy is way off or if he has a point | 02:06 |
| mdke | bit of both, I guess | 02:07 |
| LaserJock | I really don't see the "overly technical" part | 02:07 |
| Madpilot | well, the current UDG is closer to ubuntuguide.org in style than most of the stuff on the wiki, I think | 02:07 |
| crimsun | LaserJock: url? (I just now subbed) | 02:07 |
| LaserJock | I wonder if the comment was mostly for the wiki | 02:07 |
| LaserJock | crimsun: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/48298 | 02:08 |
| Ubugtu | Malone bug 48298 in ubuntu-doc "There is no mention of how to fax" [Wishlist,Confirmed] | 02:08 |
| LaserJock | last comment | 02:08 |
| crimsun | I definitely don't see the "overly technical" hint | 02:11 |
| mdke | I hate qa | 02:11 |
| mdke | what is the difference between 1. How do I install a fax?, and 2. Installing a fax | 02:12 |
| crimsun | ...unless he's arguing there's no sense in explaining the differences? [e.g., http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/music.html] | 02:12 |
| LaserJock | I guess he is mainly saying putting it into more specific sections, "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?" as opposed to looking in a "Printing" section | 02:14 |
| LaserJock | but I'm guessing that search funtions would help that | 02:14 |
| crimsun | but the more specific one gets, the more drilling down occurs | 02:14 |
| crimsun | even if you were to have "How do I print in Ubuntu?" and then "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?", it's still "How do I print?" | 02:16 |
| crimsun | welcome to hierarchy hell | 02:16 |
| LaserJock | although I did find ubunguguide.org fast since I'd just use FF's find to get what I wanted | 02:17 |
| LaserJock | it wasn't really informative as a guide though | 02:17 |
| LaserJock | it was just quick and dirty | 02:18 |
| LaserJock | which I think is tempting but people really should understand why they are doing what they are doing | 02:18 |
| mdke | sure, it's tricky to make stuff informative AND accessible | 02:19 |
| mdke | it can be done though | 02:19 |
| crimsun | do we need different perspectives, like "user manual" vs. "technical manual"? | 02:19 |
| crimsun | [imo too much work] | 02:20 |
| mdke | you're right, i think | 02:20 |
| mdke | also because we can make docs which are suitable for both, I hoep | 02:20 |
| LaserJock | hehe, I thought "technical manual" was call RTFM ;-) | 02:23 |
| === mdke sleeps | ||
| crimsun | LaserJock: it can be | 02:23 |
| Madpilot | night, mdke | 02:23 |
| crimsun | 'night mdke | 02:23 |
| mdke | night | 02:23 |
| LaserJock | cya mdke | 02:24 |
| LaserJock | I'd like to see more advanced user docs, but I just don't know how feasible that is | 02:24 |
| Burgundavia | it was always my opinion that advanced users are already well served by help | 02:33 |
| Burgundavia | grandma is the hard use case | 02:33 |
| LaserJock | yes, but to be honest I'm not much help to grandma | 02:34 |
| LaserJock | so it is easier for me to think about people like me | 02:34 |
| LaserJock | but you're absolutely right | 02:34 |
| Burgundavia | things like the packaging docs are good things | 02:34 |
| LaserJock | I'm still stuck on the idea of having an introductory guide to Bash and Python scripting | 02:35 |
| Burgundavia | python in Ubuntu would be a great guide | 02:36 |
| Burgundavia | make it a little bit marketing, by talking about how Ubuntu rocks for Python | 02:36 |
| LaserJock | right | 02:36 |
| LaserJock | and I've noticed AppleScript on OS X | 02:36 |
| LaserJock | and then new Automator thing | 02:36 |
| LaserJock | so people can actually use scripting to do "normal" things on their computer | 02:37 |
| LaserJock | I think that is pretty powerful | 02:38 |
| LaserJock | I was talking to our sys admin and he was saying that he helps people alot just by taking a couple minutes to write a script that automates stuff people were doing by hand | 02:39 |
| LaserJock | Burgundavia: people keep bringing up "WTF, why does Ubuntu ship python by default". I'd like to show them a reason. But maybe that's too ambitious for now | 02:42 |
| Burgundavia | LaserJock: if it is specced well, you will not need to write everything | 02:44 |
| LaserJock | well, I might try to spec it out and see what people think | 02:46 |
| LaserJock | it is Edgy after all, we gotta get some crack in ;-) | 02:46 |
| LaserJock | ok, I'm off to try to convince an undergrad to work for me this summer :) | 02:48 |
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| Burgundavia | hey jsgotangco | 03:18 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco: have you had a chance to chat with Joel yet? | 03:18 |
| jsgotangco | yeah last saturday | 03:19 |
| jsgotangco | he's still in school and currently having a dilemma on pursuing development and studies, i said focus on school | 03:19 |
| jsgotangco | since its about to start in a week here | 03:20 |
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| mgalvin | woohoo dead tree docs :) | 04:00 |
| Madpilot | with shiny covers, too ;) | 04:02 |
| mgalvin | yea, they look great, excellent work everybody! | 04:04 |
| mgalvin | so people can actually order they now? | 04:05 |
| mgalvin | s/they/them/ | 04:05 |
| Madpilot | apparently. Matt East has been taking care of the actual Lulu storefront stuff | 04:05 |
| mgalvin | cool | 04:06 |
| === mgalvin adds the info to UWN Issue #2 :) | ||
| === jsgotangco needs to add up content for next UWN | ||
| Burgundavia | mgalvin: very special issue, lol | 04:08 |
| Burgundavia | mgalvin: not certain that humour translates out of north america | 04:09 |
| mgalvin | Burgundavia: haha, jdub wrote that | 04:09 |
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| jsgotangco | i dont get it myself | 04:11 |
| Burgundavia | jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_special_episode | 04:11 |
| Burgundavia | it is an 80s TV reference | 04:11 |
| jsgotangco | heh let's make every week then special | 04:14 |
| jsgotangco | lol | 04:14 |
| mgalvin | :) | 04:15 |
| jsgotangco | im sure a distro like edubuntu can produce tons of specials | 04:16 |
| jsgotangco | haha | 04:16 |
| mgalvin | jsgotangco: will be cool when you are in paris, you could be the summit reporter while you are there ;) | 04:16 |
| mgalvin | are you going there for the whole thing? | 04:16 |
| jsgotangco | "this week, we tackle the life-changing episodes of people in sub-saharan africa who got to use edubuntu for the first time" | 04:17 |
| jsgotangco | yeah when i get my visa this week | 04:17 |
| mgalvin | ha | 04:17 |
| mgalvin | cool | 04:17 |
| jsgotangco | hopefully i get to finish all my TODOs in my list before the trip | 04:18 |
| jsgotangco | or else i'll see myself working in the plane lol | 04:19 |
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| Burgundavia | oh joy, revert war on DVD:RIP | 04:52 |
| robitaille | on sounder? | 04:53 |
| Burgundavia | no, wiki page | 04:54 |
| Burgundavia | I change the installation method away from apt-get and the "creator" reverted | 04:54 |
| robitaille | :) | 04:54 |
| Burgundavia | so I reverted and added a note | 04:55 |
| Burgundavia | ugh, what should I do with these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoaryBeagleInstallHowto?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29 | 04:58 |
| Burgundavia | shall I create a Category504Only ? | 05:03 |
| Burgundavia | mdke_, jsgotangco ^ | 05:05 |
| Burgundavia | Laser_away: deal with this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29 | 05:13 |
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| jsgotangco | robitaille: ping? | 07:51 |
| robitaille | jsgotangco: pong | 07:56 |
| jsgotangco | robitaille: hey i just have one q if you're familiar with it | 07:58 |
| jsgotangco | robitaille: what makes a software to be part of "restricted"? | 07:58 |
| robitaille | non-free, but supported somewhat http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components | 07:59 |
| robitaille | currently the only things in there I believes are some binary only drivers and kernel modules | 08:01 |
| jsgotangco | as opposed to multiverse that is non-free and unsupported? | 08:01 |
| robitaille | yes. | 08:01 |
| jsgotangco | argghh i missed that page entirely, thanks! | 08:01 |
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| robitaille | interestingly both my computers don't need restricted, so I usally remove it from my sources.list, remove the packages, and that make my kernel upgrades a bit smaller (and my computers a bit more free and open :) ) | 08:03 |
| robitaille | I still can't believe the package vrms exists | 08:04 |
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| mdke | Madpilot: I'm adding a "to be done" section to the wiki page, turns out I may have missed a few | 11:00 |
| Madpilot | ok | 11:00 |
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| Madpilot | mdke, what's the URL of that page off your own wiki page? I've managed to loose it... | 11:05 |
| mdke | Madpilot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations | 11:07 |
| mdke | just uploading UDG_hr now | 11:08 |
| Madpilot | I can have the cover for you in a minute or two | 11:09 |
| Madpilot | ...if Hungarian is hr, what's hu? thought that was Hungarian... | 11:12 |
| mdke | oops | 11:13 |
| mdke | hr is croatian | 11:13 |
| Madpilot | ah | 11:13 |
| mdke | that's the one we want | 11:13 |
| mdke | russian seems to be ok too, except there is a strange error with the pdf | 11:13 |
| Madpilot | OK, so I've got the right strings, I just thought it was a different language ;) | 11:13 |
| Madpilot | http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_hr.png | 11:15 |
| mdke | thanks dude. I'm going to work on russian and polish now | 11:15 |
| Madpilot | OK, ru & pl covers coming up :) | 11:16 |
| mdke | i'm not sure which guides are ready from them, presumably at least UDG | 11:16 |
| Madpilot | I'm doing ru & pl UDG covers now, let me know tomorrow if we need more/different ones | 11:18 |
| mdke | ok, thanks a lot | 11:19 |
| Madpilot | UDG_ru & UDG_pl both up | 11:21 |
| mdke | great, I'll get those sorted, thanks matey | 11:21 |
| Madpilot | np | 11:22 |
| Madpilot | it's almost 0230 here, I'm going to crash. | 11:22 |
| mdke | yeah, good night | 11:22 |
| Madpilot | email me if we need more covers done | 11:22 |
| Madpilot | I'm also going to stick a howto on the wiki somewhere so people can do their own :) | 11:23 |
| jsgotangco | yeah | 11:23 |
| mdke | that would be great | 11:23 |
| jsgotangco | wow they're big | 11:23 |
| Madpilot | jsgotangco, 300dpi images | 11:23 |
| Madpilot | or rather, once Lulu resizes them, they become 300dpi images | 11:23 |
| rob | hi guys | 11:24 |
| rob | mdke, well done on lulu | 11:24 |
| Madpilot | hi rob | 11:25 |
| mdke | rob: thanks, and Madpilot too for the covers. Thanks for the idea | 11:25 |
| rob | yes, Madpilot too! | 11:25 |
| rob | did you get the patch I emailed? | 11:25 |
| mdke | i saw it on the list | 11:26 |
| rob | ah ok, good | 11:27 |
| jsgotangco | yeah print requires 300dpi | 11:28 |
| Madpilot | jsgotangco, at a minimum, yeah | 11:28 |
| jsgotangco | some even require bleed | 11:29 |
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| jsgotangco | mdke: can't you drop by in paris even for a day? | 05:14 |
| mdke | when is it? | 05:17 |
| jsgotangco | 18-23 | 05:18 |
| jsgotangco | err 19 rather | 05:18 |
| jsgotangco | 18 is the dinner | 05:18 |
| jsgotangco | i arrive on the 17th | 05:18 |
| mdke | hmm. I'm picking up my gf from the airport that weekend, then working that week | 05:18 |
| mdke | it'll have to be another time | 05:18 |
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| mdke | man there is gonna be some serious flamage on that last sounder thread | 05:23 |
| jsgotangco | ethical ubuntu? | 05:31 |
| jsgotangco | heh | 05:31 |
| jsgotangco | i could only laugh at the irony of the spec | 05:32 |
| jsgotangco | mgalvin: hmmm these mdz emails about the newsletter seems to hint on making us do it most of the time and have little docteam work heh | 05:40 |
| jsgotangco | post-release braindumping lol | 05:40 |
| mgalvin | just what we need, more work ;) | 05:41 |
| mgalvin | its cool though, they are good ideas | 05:41 |
| mgalvin | i think as it grows more people will probably | 05:41 |
| mgalvin | help | 05:41 |
| mgalvin | in which we will need to better organize it as well | 05:42 |
| jeffsch | perhaps put it on the docteam site | 05:43 |
| mgalvin | i was thinking of a developer of the week, something like upload stats and such... but i think it would be seb128 every week :) | 05:43 |
| mgalvin | jeffsch: we should link to it from there | 05:44 |
| mdke | jsgotangco: now's your chance to ask jeffsch about the styleguide license | 05:44 |
| jeffsch | and if you put a docteam member of the week, it would always be mdke | 05:44 |
| jsgotangco | mdke: actually we talk everyday, it just didnt get into my mind | 05:45 |
| jsgotangco | jeffsch: do you remember putting the styleguide under Publid Domain? | 05:45 |
| jeffsch | jsgotangco: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-January/004798.html | 05:45 |
| mdke | how fast was that | 05:45 |
| mdke | jeffsch: thoughts on this gender convention question? | 05:45 |
| jsgotangco | lol ok thanks for reminding me | 05:46 |
| jsgotangco | january! | 05:46 |
| jsgotangco | long time ago! | 05:46 |
| === jsgotangco plans to clean up the cobwebs this weekend | ||
| jeffsch | mdke: it will be difficult to come to a consensus | 05:47 |
| jeffsch | there are so many different ways to handle it | 05:47 |
| jeffsch | some are very easy, like "he" means "she" too | 05:48 |
| jeffsch | others require rewriting the paragraph | 05:48 |
| jeffsch | plus each culture has its biases | 05:48 |
| jeffsch | plus each translator.... | 05:48 |
| jeffsch | on and on | 05:48 |
| jsgotangco | yeah | 05:49 |
| jsgotangco | ours for example is very maternal... | 05:49 |
| mdke | jeffsch: i'm used to "he" means "she" myself | 05:50 |
| jsgotangco | we dont address the gender explicitly at all but its implied in some phrases | 05:50 |
| mdke | i meant just for English really, then we can allow translators to go their own way | 05:51 |
| jsgotangco | i think the bug was more on Rosetta rather than the document as well | 05:51 |
| jsgotangco | (how rosetta allows for such in the system) | 05:51 |
| mdke | well, more or less. | 05:51 |
| jsgotangco | but then they're strings.. | 05:51 |
| jeffsch | personally, i think when you put a note at the beginning that says "he" means "she", then you are copping out | 05:52 |
| mdke | I think we should talk about English though, rather than the bug | 05:52 |
| jsgotangco | yeah | 05:52 |
| mdke | jeffsch: "copping out" being a bad thing? | 05:52 |
| jeffsch | you're saying "yeah, i know there's a "she", but I can't be bothered to accomodate her | 05:52 |
| jeffsch | mdke: yeah. it means being lazy or unconcerned | 05:53 |
| mdke | we could invent a new pronoun then, which means both | 05:53 |
| mdke | I don't really think it does mean that though | 05:53 |
| jeffsch | some writing books have whole chapters on the gender thing | 05:53 |
| jeffsch | it's an issue that is still in flux | 05:54 |
| jeffsch | a single method has not yet been settled | 05:54 |
| mdke | do you think we should set a policy for it, or not worry? Not doing so might be doubly copping out | 05:54 |
| jeffsch | ideally, there should be a policy as well as examples on the various ways of handling it | 05:55 |
| jsgotangco | jeffsch: not being old school but does strunk & white have anything about this? i dont remember at all | 05:55 |
| jeffsch | it could probably take a chapter in the styleguide | 05:55 |
| jeffsch | jsgotangco: hold on, i'll check | 05:55 |
| mdke | i think we should deal with it | 05:55 |
| === jsgotangco checks his copy too | ||
| jeffsch | on page 60 of my copy | 05:57 |
| === mdke has a look in some law books | ||
| jsgotangco | "Alternatively, put all controversial nouns in the plural and avoid the choice of sex altogether" | 05:58 |
| jsgotangco | "although you may find your prose sounding more general and diffuse as a result" | 05:58 |
| jsgotangco | its mostly geared towards the male gender though | 05:58 |
| === mdke marvels that a ship's master is uniformly referred to as "he" without any kind of apology | ||
| jsgotangco | "The use of he as a pronoun for nouns embracing both genders is a simple, practical convention rooted in the beginnings fo the English language" | 06:00 |
| jeffsch | "Currently however, many writers find the use of generic he or his to rename indefinite antecedents limiting or offensive>" | 06:01 |
| === mdke catches one legal textbook book using "she" as generic pronoun | ||
| jsgotangco | check the author lol | 06:02 |
| jsgotangco | kidding | 06:02 |
| mdke | this one uses he or she randomly | 06:02 |
| jsgotangco | yes its also recommended to mix | 06:03 |
| jsgotangco | to make it not sound repetitive and boring too | 06:03 |
| jsgotangco | we'll have to write in the 3rd person | 06:04 |
| jsgotangco | or plural | 06:04 |
| jsgotangco | but that is avoiding it altogether | 06:04 |
| === mdke doesn't really care, but thinks we should have a policy | ||
| jsgotangco | i cannot say really, it is quite hard to describe a lot of things in the 3rd person | 06:06 |
| jsgotangco | well not so hard, but depends on the style of the writer as well | 06:07 |
| jeffsch | are there any specific instances in our current docs where it could be and issue? | 06:07 |
| jsgotangco | well instructions per se are 3rd person | 06:07 |
| jeffsch | or was it just the bug thing? | 06:08 |
| jsgotangco | the bug is more of rosetta not havign the facility for such | 06:08 |
| jsgotangco | rather than the document | 06:08 |
| jeffsch | hmmm... is there a facility for a translator to add translator notes to a doc? | 06:10 |
| jsgotangco | hmmm come to think of it | 06:12 |
| jsgotangco | i dont see it | 06:12 |
| jsgotangco | only translator-credits | 06:12 |
| jsgotangco | but *only* if there is a provision for such | 06:12 |
| jeffsch | perhaps an empty para in an appropriate place in the english docs. the translators can leave it empty or stick in some notes | 06:14 |
| mdke | yes, that won't be a problem | 06:14 |
| mdke | I'm more concerned about what to do for the English :) | 06:14 |
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| jeffsch | perhaps we can cop out and ask ubuntu-women to write that section of the styleguide for us ;) | 06:15 |
| mdke | not a bad idea to get their views actually | 06:16 |
| jsgotangco | hey that's a good idea | 06:17 |
| jsgotangco | they're asking for guidance anyway | 06:17 |
| jsgotangco | let's give 'em work | 06:17 |
| jeffsch | last ask them rather than giving them | 06:18 |
| jeffsch | come up with a preliminary spec and ask for input and advice | 06:21 |
| LaserJock | umm, so does the doc team offically handle the newsletter? | 06:26 |
| LaserJock | I'm getting so confused by all the newlettery things running about | 06:26 |
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| Burgwork | LaserJock, you around? | 06:27 |
| mdke | he's right here! | 06:27 |
| jsgotangco | even though its basically me, mgalvin and Riddell who started it, anyone can actually dive in | 06:27 |
| Burgwork | mdke, right, just noticed that | 06:27 |
| mgalvin | i just figured it was best to associate it the the doc team at large since it is docs, although its not meant to force anyone to anything | 06:29 |
| LaserJock | I like the idea, personally | 06:29 |
| Burgwork | yep, and the marketing team is busy with other, useless, things | 06:29 |
| LaserJock | associating with a team is a good idea, IMO | 06:29 |
| mdke | this would be ideal for the marketing team | 06:29 |
| mdke | but I'm starting to get the impression there isn't really one | 06:30 |
| mdke | corey forwarded them the email about the newsletter, no responses | 06:30 |
| mgalvin | there is one, they just don't do anything... ok i will stop being mean ;) | 06:31 |
| jsgotangco | well | 06:31 |
| Burgwork | they do, they just don't integrate with the rest of us | 06:31 |
| LaserJock | ok, but the individual derivatives have there own newsletter, right? but this one is sort of the Ubntu project as a whole? | 06:31 |
| mgalvin | i think jenda is part of that team, we started talking the other day, i've got to catch up with him again | 06:32 |
| jsgotangco | no the derivative newsletters are history | 06:32 |
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| jsgotangco | were just merging everything | 06:32 |
| jeffsch | who is the intended audience? | 06:32 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: history :( | 06:33 |
| mgalvin | jeffsch: internal management, developers and community at large | 06:33 |
| jsgotangco | yeah like we're issue 1 and we got closed heh | 06:33 |
| jsgotangco | at least kubuntu got to issue 2 | 06:33 |
| Burgwork | mgalvin, jenda is indeed part of that team | 06:33 |
| jenda | me? | 06:33 |
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| jenda | what team? sorry sooo busy... (with ubuntu now) | 06:34 |
| apokryphos | mdke, Burgwork: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/CommonQuestions | 06:34 |
| apokryphos | feedback greatly appreciated =) | 06:34 |
| jenda | (ping me if you need me) | 06:34 |
| mgalvin | jenda: i was just saying i need to catch up with you at some point to talk about the newletter/marking relationship | 06:34 |
| mgalvin | i am busy too, so not right now ;) | 06:34 |
| jenda | OK :) | 06:35 |
| jsgotangco | its also one way to jumpstart the marketing team | 06:36 |
| Burgwork | yep, as long it doesn't fall on the floor | 06:36 |
| === mgalvin gets lunch | ||
| mgalvin | bbl | 06:37 |
| mdke | apokryphos: will do. Some structure would work, dividing the page up a bit | 06:38 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: btw, I'm not sure what to do with that packaging wiki page | 06:38 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, can it be killed and redirected to your packaging guide? | 06:38 |
| apokryphos | mdke: there is a little, but it's tough to do completely as it's too large for no sections, too small for general sections. | 06:39 |
| mdke | hmm | 06:39 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: well, that has been something on my mind. I'm not sure if the PG should obsolete wiki pages. I like having devs and wannabes use the wiki pages for braindumps and stuff which I can then clean up and put in the PG | 06:40 |
| apokryphos | over time that would probably be easier (if it grew), but at the moment it's not a s clear I'd say. | 06:40 |
| LaserJock | but many of the pages right now are wrong, for the wrong release, or are really not needed anymore | 06:40 |
| mdke | apokryphos: it mustn't grow, I think it's already too big tbh. If it grows, you'll just start making another duplicate guide | 06:41 |
| jenda | Can you folks help me get the Czech team included here? http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local?action=show&redirect=support%2Fsupportoptions%2Flocal | 06:41 |
| jenda | who should i contact? | 06:41 |
| apokryphos | mdke: what's the other appropriate guide that you think it would be a duplicate of? | 06:41 |
| mdke | jenda: I've been doing that recently | 06:42 |
| mdke | apokryphos: like, all documentation | 06:42 |
| jenda | So you could do that if I give you the necessary facts? | 06:42 |
| apokryphos | mdke: it's not the same at all. This guide links to other documentation; it works as a generalized faq to sections of the wiki and the ubuntu site | 06:42 |
| mdke | jenda: yes. msg me them, or post to loco-contacts | 06:43 |
| mdke | apokryphos: the problem we have when large guides start springing up like this is that a user looks at the resources available and doesn't know where to click | 06:43 |
| mdke | that's bad | 06:43 |
| apokryphos | it's perhaps misleading to view it as a large guide, as I said. It's a guide that tells you just where to look | 06:44 |
| mdke | the size doesn't really matter | 06:44 |
| jsgotangco | good night all | 06:44 |
| mdke | the problem arises when the user sees 5 different resources, instead of one | 06:44 |
| jeffsch | jsgotangco: sleep well | 06:45 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, then can you do that? | 06:45 |
| apokryphos | this can serve more as a guide to many pages of the wiki, even | 06:45 |
| mdke | apokryphos: like UserDocumentation does, you think? | 06:45 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: I can certainly try :-) | 06:46 |
| apokryphos | mdke: it's good, but it's not nearly the same; I'd say it was too general and certainlly couldn't act as a full FAQ to the wiki and users on IRC | 06:46 |
| jsgotangco | wow that's a pretty nice faq though | 06:46 |
| apokryphos | the search is just about as good as a search can be on a wiki, but it's not quite as perfect, or as readable/accessible | 06:47 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, sure | 06:48 |
| apokryphos | I think a link to that on UserDocumentation would be decent enough, and I'd say it's a lot more patched up now (still open to particular feedback though) | 06:48 |
| apokryphos | ah, mounting windoze partitions; gotta add that in. | 06:49 |
| LaserJock | boy there's a lot of old cruft and crappy wiki pages laying around :/ | 06:50 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, yep | 06:51 |
| mdke | apokryphos: my advice is to confine it to only a few questions, like 15 max | 06:52 |
| apokryphos | why? | 06:52 |
| apokryphos | mdke: as long as organisation is maintained when it gets larger, I think it'd be just fine | 06:52 |
| mdke | because I think that otherwise it will simply become an attempt to replace existing documentation, and will be confusing to read | 06:52 |
| apokryphos | much better to have the information available and for it to take someone a little longer to find on the page (though I don't think this is a necessary consequence) than to not have the answer available at all | 06:53 |
| mdke | sigh | 06:53 |
| apokryphos | mdke: I can't imagine how you'd argue that it replaces existing documentation when it explicitly links out to it all in practically every answer | 06:53 |
| mdke | ok, so s/documentation/index | 06:53 |
| LaserJock | apokryphos: I think the problem is this, there is lots of entry points to documentation throw at users | 06:54 |
| apokryphos | if the index is as it is (which I don't think is wrong) it follows as necessary to have a more complete guide (or index, in the fuller sense) with these things available | 06:54 |
| mdke | apokryphos: right, but right now, your page isn't an index at all, it's half way between | 06:55 |
| apokryphos | LaserJock: for the most quintessential questions (the page being an FAQ in itself) there isn't | 06:55 |
| mdke | but the whole point we subcategorised the index was that we were going in the opposite direction to this | 06:55 |
| apokryphos | the subcategories are fine and dandy, but as I said, they don't nearly provide the information as readily | 06:55 |
| apokryphos | and for many of those it's also the case that you simply wouldn't find them from any of the subcategories | 06:56 |
| mdke | apokryphos: yes. All you are saying is you disagree with what we have discussed a million times and come to a different view | 06:56 |
| apokryphos | having simply a few subcategories cannot be the solution | 06:56 |
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| apokryphos | I didn't notice us discussing it a million times, and I'm not just saying I disagree (I'm providing substantiation) | 06:56 |
| mdke | apokryphos: "us" = the team, rather than you and us | 06:57 |
| apokryphos | if you disagree with my reasoning then that's another issue for you to pick up, but it's not the case that I'm just blindly disagreeing; I hardly want to argue for no reason :) | 06:57 |
| apokryphos | ok | 06:57 |
| mdke | another thing I'm concerned about is duplication of this document - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq | 06:57 |
| apokryphos | not quite a duplication | 06:58 |
| apokryphos | (at all) | 06:58 |
| jjesse | stupdi question, but i always forget what packages i need to validate and also build the doc | 06:59 |
| apokryphos | that provides the answer to a few (very few questions), whereas this is a full-blown wiki faq | 06:59 |
| LaserJock | apokryphos: but again, I'm seeing lots of different places to get somewhat similar info. It is confusing to me and I think it could be quite confusing to new users | 06:59 |
| apokryphos | LaserJock: this provides link to and into the wiki; the fact that there are multiple places to get the info is a simple fact, this merely directs into it | 07:00 |
| mdke | apokryphos: actually, as far as I can see, lots of your answers are on that page | 07:00 |
| apokryphos | it's not as if I'm creating another wiki, I'm linking to parts into the wiki | 07:00 |
| apokryphos | some are, some aren't. That page is not a wiki. | 07:01 |
| apokryphos | I have to shoot off to dinner, I can continue discussion when I'm back :) | 07:01 |
| LaserJock | apokryphos: right, I understand that, but we still have multiple places to go to find that info | 07:01 |
| mdke | apokryphos: well, actually, that page is a wiki | 07:01 |
| mdke | it's on a wiki, at any rate | 07:01 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: just dropped in to say hi, and idle :) | 07:01 |
| mdke | just to get rid of the magic "wiki" word | 07:01 |
| apokryphos | editable by regular users; I thought that was presupposed | 07:01 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: welcome back :) | 07:02 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Thanks :) | 07:02 |
| apokryphos | anyhow, I really have to go; back later guys | 07:02 |
| mdke | me too, cyall | 07:02 |
| LaserJock | apokryphos: it's got good info though, good work on that | 07:02 |
| LaserJock | cya mdke | 07:03 |
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| jjesse | sorry dropped my connection, what packages are needed to validate and also build the docs? | 07:22 |
| LaserJock | docbook-xsl? | 07:23 |
| jjesse | libxml2-utils | 07:25 |
| apokryphos | back guys | 07:59 |
| mdke | jjesse: apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs | 08:00 |
| apokryphos | to clarify my thoughts, and to avoid spiralling to an endless pit: (i) I do not think this is a duplication of effort. I do not see ubuntuguide as appropriate (I can expand), the wiki search as appropriate, or the ubuntu.com FAQ. Each for reasons I can clarify | 08:01 |
| apokryphos | I think the guide should welcome other FAQ content as long as it is a FAQ, it's kept manageable and organised | 08:01 |
| apokryphos | I'm not sure of its role with regard to the entire wiki and its structure, and you guys are the boss, so if you really want it a particular way (hidden or not mentioned there) then I'll be fine with that | 08:02 |
| apokryphos | Needless to say, I think this is the *exact* FAQ that could shape up to be i.e. in an IRC channel topic, a link to provide to friends. I think it greatly complements the wiki rather than duplicates effort anywhere, and I think that should be its aim | 08:03 |
| apokryphos | ok, just added mounting/xgl+compiz faq | 08:09 |
| LaserJock | apokryphos: I guess you should probably link the the ubuntu.com FAQ first off and then don't do any Questions that are the same | 08:10 |
| apokryphos | LaserJock: not really because I wouldn't want the faq to be "check there for the answer first, if it's not there read this faq" | 08:11 |
| LaserJock | but if ubuntu has an offical FAQ that should be the first place people should go | 08:11 |
| LaserJock | the wiki is fine and dandy, but I'd rather get the answer straight from the horse's mouth if I can | 08:12 |
| apokryphos | I don't see the problem with having the information there too. Having to first check through one faq, and *then* check through another is annoying | 08:12 |
| apokryphos | the horse's mouth is good, and we should try to link to it where that's relevant | 08:13 |
| apokryphos | for additional information etc. That faq is linked to below under support options | 08:13 |
| apokryphos | but I don't want to get into a whole debate on the validity of wikis as mediums for support/advice | 08:14 |
| apokryphos | that FAQ is a little outdated, I'll email the relevant people later if I get round to it | 08:14 |
| apokryphos | ......unless someone here has editing privileges? | 08:15 |
| LaserJock | I think there are people who do | 08:15 |
| LaserJock | I know that a ubuntu-website ML is in the works so people can talk about the website | 08:16 |
| mdke | apokryphos: why don't you work on improving the faq on the website? We can update it for you. | 08:16 |
| mdke | merge the two projects | 08:16 |
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| apokryphos | mdke: I think that resolves a lot of issues | 08:16 |
| apokryphos | still doesn't have the easyness of it being a freely editable wiki, which I think can help | 08:17 |
| apokryphos | also wouldn't it be questionable to reference practical (but things of questionable legality) on that page? | 08:17 |
| LaserJock | no | 08:18 |
| LaserJock | linking to RestrictedFormats for instance is a good thing | 08:18 |
| mdke | well, don't be illegal obviously | 08:18 |
| apokryphos | giving advice on how to install some of those restricted formats is of questionable legality, though | 08:19 |
| LaserJock | telling people to go to RestrictedFormats has no questionable legality | 08:19 |
| apokryphos | though if recommending the whole of RestrictedFormats page is fine, then there's no issue there | 08:20 |
| LaserJock | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation also has some of the CommonQuestion items | 08:22 |
| apokryphos | yup | 08:22 |
| LaserJock | I like a lot of those items apokryphos, but my thought is that I'd rather see them folded into the ubuntu.com FAQ and UserDocumentation, but that's just IMO | 08:26 |
| apokryphos | LaserJock: it'd be nice to get all of that information as easily accessible (regardless of its location), I believe, too. I think there are a few drawbacks to having it woven into the ubuntu.com FAQ but I'll leave that up to you guys | 08:27 |
| apokryphos | having it folded into UserDocumentation could work, but I think that page servers more as an introductory page to the entire wiki, whereas the CommonQuestions page acts simply as an FAQ to new users | 08:27 |
| LaserJock | well, my thinking is this. If they really are FAQ then people shouldn't have to go to the wiki to find them. | 08:29 |
| apokryphos | but having them on the wiki gives a lot of advantages | 08:29 |
| LaserJock | like? | 08:30 |
| apokryphos | and the answers it provides are very often linking right into the wiki | 08:30 |
| apokryphos | that anyone can edit it | 08:30 |
| apokryphos | and others (like me) can just help with organising it later | 08:30 |
| LaserJock | my experience has been that once you let anyone edit it the quality starts going downhill | 08:31 |
| apokryphos | I really don't want to argue here at all (I do apologise); I'm seriously just trying to help, and offering an idea | 08:31 |
| apokryphos | LaserJock: so let's try to stop that, with this page :) | 08:31 |
| LaserJock | no, that's fine | 08:31 |
| LaserJock | you are helping | 08:31 |
| LaserJock | but sometimes we have to work through what the best way to present the info is, and how to go about things | 08:32 |
| tuxmaniac | sorry to interrupt. apokryphos discussions does not mean opposition.. It is just a way of getting others views and chosing the best | 08:32 |
| apokryphos | I don't doubt it | 08:33 |
| LaserJock | we have been going over and over a bit with this though | 08:33 |
| apokryphos | yes | 08:34 |
| apokryphos | hm, how do I make "x y" link to xy? | 08:37 |
| LaserJock | hmm, I'm not sure, I'm just a casual wiki user | 08:38 |
| apokryphos | nevermind, got it | 08:38 |
| apokryphos | ok, added a few more parent sections and did a bit of restructuring, while adding more questions. Should be more accessible now. | 09:07 |
| jjesse | l | 09:19 |
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| Burgwork | mgalvin, are you aware of the wikipedia signpost? | 09:20 |
| mgalvin | Burgwork: huh? nope | 09:21 |
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| Burgwork | mgalvin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost | 09:22 |
| mgalvin | looking | 09:22 |
| Burgwork | they have been very successful in running a newsletter | 09:22 |
| mgalvin | cool, i'll have to take a closer look in a bit, busy at work atm | 09:24 |
| mgalvin | Burgwork: thanks for pointing me at it | 09:25 |
| Burgwork | mgalvin, np | 09:27 |
| Burgwork | mdke, hmm, -uk contact issues? | 09:35 |
| mdke | Burgwork: not that I know of. I'm just surprised he randomly emailed the loco-list without discussing it on the -uk list first | 09:46 |
| mgalvin | man the wiki seems slow | 09:47 |
| mdke | yeah it is | 09:47 |
| mdke | too many pages | 09:47 |
| Burgwork | mdke, that was what I meant | 09:48 |
| LaserJock | mdke: can we make string changes in the dapper docs for -updates | 09:48 |
| mdke | LaserJock: erm. | 09:48 |
| mdke | no, i'm pretty sure we can't | 09:48 |
| mdke | dapper uploads automatically get pushed to rosetta, so it would break translations | 09:49 |
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| LaserJock | hmm, bummer | 09:49 |
| mdke | then again, the packaging guide isn't so widely translated, I'd say that it can be your call | 09:49 |
| LaserJock | why would it break translations? | 09:49 |
| mdke | well, because new strings will come in | 09:50 |
| LaserJock | but if the docs are still being translated post-release isn't that not really a problem | 09:50 |
| === LaserJock has a clear lack of understand of Rosetta | ||
| mdke | yeah, that's true | 09:50 |
| mdke | but you need to make sure that the teams that have translated those strings already know to retranslate them | 09:51 |
| mdke | and have time to do so | 09:51 |
| LaserJock | ah | 09:51 |
| LaserJock | I thought they had a "this string has changed" flag or something | 09:51 |
| mdke | well, they'll be untranslated, so it's obvious yeah | 09:51 |
| mdke | but they might not look :) | 09:52 |
| LaserJock | slackers ;-) | 09:52 |
| LaserJock | ok, well I was just going to try to address the bug in the chroot directions that was just on the ML | 09:53 |
| mdke | LaserJock: I'm fine with you deciding | 09:57 |
| mgalvin | anyone know 'Mav' a polish translator? | 09:57 |
| LaserJock | mdke: hehe, thanks a lot. :p | 09:57 |
| mdke | mgalvin: no, why? | 09:59 |
| mgalvin | Mav is translating issue 1 into polish and i just wanted to try to catch up with him/her | 10:00 |
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| mgalvin | i would like to try to organize the page a bit better | 10:00 |
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| mgalvin | maybe something like UWN/Issue1/LANG | 10:00 |
| mdke | mgalvin: I'd suggest you invite translators to publish them on their individual sites | 10:01 |
| mdke | mgalvin: we'll be doing that for italian | 10:01 |
| mdke | it won't be possible to get everyone to do it in the wiki | 10:01 |
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| mgalvin | mdke: true, i guess i'll email the translators list and just let them add a simple link to translated versions or something | 10:06 |
| mdke | that works too | 10:06 |
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| rob | oh, have you guys seen this: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/05/1340255 | 10:29 |
| mgalvin | oh nice | 10:31 |
| mgalvin | ooo, and the finally have the new look, neat | 10:33 |
| rob | yeah, I noticed that too, all ajax and stuff too | 10:33 |
| mgalvin | sweet | 10:34 |
| rob | this is encouraging: "Lets hope other distributions follow Ubuntu's lead on this one.." | 10:34 |
| rob | I really have to stop quickly checking that site before going to work each morning | 10:35 |
| mgalvin | indeed! | 10:35 |
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| === enrico congratulates for the weekly newsletter! | ||
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| rob | ok, better go to work | 10:39 |
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| mdke | slashdotted? | 10:41 |
| mdke | w00t | 10:41 |
| DBO | slashdot, the only good DDoS | 10:42 |
| LaserJock | I made my first /. post for that | 10:43 |
| LaserJock | as an Anonymous Coward of course | 10:43 |
| mdke | the embedded fonts one? | 10:43 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 10:43 |
| LaserJock | I couldn't remember exactly, but I thought that was it | 10:44 |
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| mgalvin | whats the polish lang code? | 10:45 |
| crimsun | interesting, I can't secondary-click in epiphany while a page is loading | 10:45 |
| DBO | crimsun, seconded | 10:45 |
| DBO | but I can if I switch to a different tab | 10:45 |
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| mdke_ | did I miss anything? | 10:49 |
| crimsun | < mgalvin> whats the polish lang code? | 10:50 |
| crimsun | that's about it, I think | 10:50 |
| mdke_ | pl | 10:50 |
| mgalvin | thanks | 10:51 |
| mdke_ | thanks crimsun | 10:51 |
| crimsun | np | 10:52 |
| mgalvin | hmm, need a second opinion... | 10:53 |
| mgalvin | for the issues lang sub-pages, should i use the lang code or the lang name? | 10:53 |
| mgalvin | i was leaning toward the code | 10:54 |
| crimsun | why not "name (code)"? | 10:54 |
| crimsun | oh, for Web | 10:54 |
| mgalvin | yea, on the wiki | 10:54 |
| === mdke_ doesn't think lang sub pages are a good idea | ||
| mgalvin | UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1/pl | 10:55 |
| mgalvin | why? | 10:55 |
| mdke_ | mgalvin: we discussed it already | 10:55 |
| mgalvin | only for ones that are hosted on wiki.ubuntu.com | 10:55 |
| mgalvin | see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/SubmittingTranslations | 10:55 |
| mdke_ | http://ubuntu.pl/ | 10:55 |
| mgalvin | well, Mav created it on the wiki :-/ | 10:55 |
| mdke_ | yeah, that's my point | 10:56 |
| mdke_ | I think translators should be encouraged to integrate with their own sites, because that's where polish speakers go | 10:56 |
| mdke_ | english speakers will be on the wiki | 10:56 |
| mgalvin | i'll have to try and catch up with him and see if he can do that | 10:57 |
| mdke_ | but this is just my opinion, people should do what they think is best | 10:57 |
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| mdke_ | heya Madpilot | 11:03 |
| Madpilot | hi | 11:03 |
| mdke | the lulu thing got slashdotted | 11:04 |
| Madpilot | wheee | 11:04 |
| mdke | Madpilot: we're just missing the cover for russian server guide, afaics | 11:04 |
| Madpilot | OK, I can get that in a bit | 11:05 |
| mdke | I'm quite disappointed that Lulu doesn't show us the sales of actual books, but just the total (downloaded and printed) | 11:06 |
| crimsun | (complain!) | 11:06 |
| mdke | (I did) | 11:06 |
| LaserJock | hmm, I'm pretty sure they will have a Mattzilla pretty soon for you | 11:06 |
| mdke | http://www.lulu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40491 | 11:06 |
| Burgwork | Madpilot, are you not supposed to be working? | 11:09 |
| Madpilot | Burgwork, booked the day off, I'm working most of next weekend | 11:10 |
| Burgwork | ah | 11:10 |
| LaserJock | lol | 11:10 |
| Burgwork | LaserJock, are you amused that the person who is working (and is clearly not) asking somebody else if they are working? | 11:13 |
| LaserJock | no, "Am I my brother's keeper?" came to mind | 11:13 |
| Madpilot | Burgwork, I should contact your boss and tell him to block IRC's ports on your work server ;) | 11:13 |
| Burgwork | right | 11:13 |
| Burgwork | first of all, I (and Brett), control the entire IT infrastructure here | 11:14 |
| Burgwork | 2nd, I have root on every machine in the office | 11:14 |
| mdke | they must be crazy | 11:14 |
| Burgwork | heh | 11:15 |
| Madpilot | absolutely | 11:15 |
| crimsun | help help I'm being oppressed | 11:15 |
| mdke | bloody peasant | 11:15 |
| LaserJock | Burgwork: is Tim your boss? | 11:15 |
| Burgwork | yes, but he is in Calgary, thank the lord | 11:16 |
| Burgwork | my boss is Tim's older brother, Daniel | 11:16 |
| Madpilot | mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ru.png | 11:19 |
| Madpilot | mdke, I've also update the UDG_ru cover, to use the same typeface as ServerGuide_ru - the Cyrillic looks way better now | 11:19 |
| mdke | word | 11:20 |
| Burgwork | page | 11:21 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: ThomasWaldmann | 11:25 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: context? | 11:25 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Argh.. Miss-paste | 11:25 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de | 11:26 |
| mdke | ok, cool | 11:26 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: so do you want some examples to test with? | 11:27 |
| mdke | something hardcore like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenSSL | 11:28 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Urgh.. Well, if you like :) | 11:30 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: I haven't done intensive testing.. | 11:30 |
| mdke | I'll give it a go | 11:30 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Just small testcases. | 11:30 |
| mdke | oh... | 11:31 |
| mdke | shall I delete it? | 11:31 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Njah.. Do as you please | 11:31 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: The more the merrier :) | 11:31 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: But if you find issues, a small testcase would be nicer :) | 11:31 |
| mdke | works in yelp | 11:32 |
| mdke | IZ VALID! | 11:32 |
| mdke | holy shit | 11:33 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: I'll take that as a compliment :D | 11:33 |
| mdke | that's pretty damn cool | 11:33 |
| mdke | nice one dude | 11:34 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Thanks :) | 11:34 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: I'm going to work on generating a single book from multiple pages. | 11:35 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: sounds fun :) | 11:35 |
| mdke | Burgwork: mvirkkil is working on the wiki->docbook SoC project, already looking good | 11:35 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: But I think I've solved the largest problems. Now I just need to implement it ;) | 11:35 |
| LaserJock | \o/ | 11:35 |
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| mdke | mvirkkil: well done, that's great stuff. Is it going to work with 1.5 and above only? | 11:36 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: I'm working agains the 1.6 branch as are all the other SoC:s | 11:37 |
| mdke | oh right | 11:37 |
| mdke | we have 1.3.4 on our servers :D | 11:37 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Yeah.. I know :) | 11:37 |
| mdke | we'll have to get them to upgrade sharpish | 11:37 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: There have been cleanups in various parts, but the largest ones went in to the 1.3 branch, so it might be backportable. | 11:38 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: I'm not going to try though :) | 11:38 |
| mdke | fair enough | 11:38 |
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| mdke | rob: by the way, is that your post to /. ? | 11:39 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Fedora solved it by creating a small service which takes a page url, requests the raw wiki syntax and runs it through the parser and formatter to return the docbook to the callee. | 11:40 |
| mdke | right | 11:41 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: So they have their old 1.3.x wiki, but when they want docbook, they run it throug a more up to date wiki, to re-parse and re-format the page on the fly. | 11:41 |
| Madpilot | Anyone else noticed that packages.ubuntu.com is still defaulting to only searching Breezy's repos? | 11:41 |
| mdke | instead of upgrading? | 11:41 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: At the moment yes. | 11:41 |
| mdke | ic | 11:41 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: But I got the feeling they are going to update soonish. | 11:41 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: I hope you don't use fedora now! | 11:43 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: There are some simple improvements in newer versions like strikethrough, but I suppose both ubuntu and fedora feel that the 1.3 version is/was good enough. | 11:43 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Nope, and my mentor knows it :) | 11:43 |
| mdke | good. | 11:43 |
| mdke | well, the WYSIWYG editor is a massive bonus in 1.5 | 11:43 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Coming from a debian background, I wouldn't know how to deal with day to day tasks.. | 11:43 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: That means wysiwyg editing of docbooks ;) | 11:44 |
| mdke | it does indeed | 11:44 |
| mvirkkil | There's also some other seriously cool stuff brewing in moin. | 11:44 |
| mdke | moin is great | 11:44 |
| mdke | shame they only got a few soc projects | 11:44 |
| mdke | Madpilot: uploaded, grazie | 11:45 |
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| Madpilot | de nada | 11:45 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: The wiki sync for example. Allowing to separate wikis to transparently sync the pages they want in sync. | 11:45 |
| DBO | wait... de nada... italian right? | 11:45 |
| Madpilot | DBO, very funny ;) | 11:46 |
| Madpilot | no, de nada is es | 11:46 |
| DBO | ok | 11:46 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: So distributions could share certain documentation, collaborativle improve them accross wikis. | 11:46 |
| DBO | Madpilot, I thought you should know | 11:46 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: nice | 11:46 |
| Madpilot | DBO, thank you. I think. :) | 11:46 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: And the [[GetText(DistributionName)] ] could take care of branding. | 11:46 |
| === DBO gives Madpilot a tux plushie | ||
| mdke | mvirkkil: that does sound exciting | 11:46 |
| mvirkkil | Since the dictionary could hold "branding" information. | 11:47 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Yeah... Should limit the duplication of docs and difficulty of merging separate documentation in to a canonical whole. | 11:48 |
| mdke | hmmmm | 11:48 |
| mdke | limiting duplication... | 11:48 |
| mdke | duplicious | 11:48 |
| === mdke drools | ||
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| Burgwork | mdke, very cool | 11:49 |
| mvirkkil | And all larger distros already use docbook, ubuntu, fedora and suse (though they have som suse.dtd of their own). | 11:50 |
| mvirkkil | And gnome, ubuntu and fedora use moinmoin. | 11:50 |
| mdke | Gnome based distros | 11:50 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Yup.. So basically all using and writing documentation for the same tools. | 11:51 |
| LaserJock | Madpilot: I like the Ubuntu CA logo :-) | 11:51 |
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| Madpilot | LaserJock, thanks | 11:51 |
| mvirkkil | mdke: Well, now I need to get some sleep. It's almost 1am and I've got to be at work at 8am | 11:52 |
| mdke | mvirkkil: alright, have fun and keep up the good work | 11:52 |
| === WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| === DBO wants to see the ubuntu CA logo | ||
| === theCore [n=alex@modemcable240.218-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-doc | ||
| Madpilot | DBO, www.ubuntu-ca.org | 11:55 |
| Burgwork | DBO, planet.ubuntu as a big version | 11:56 |
| === DBO needs to start guessing... | ||
| DBO | you did that Madpilot? =) | 11:56 |
| mdke | Burgwork: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/OpenSSL -> Render as docbook -> Open in yelp | 11:56 |
| Madpilot | yes | 11:56 |
| Madpilot | Inkscape is wonderful :) | 11:56 |
| DBO | its... its beautiful | 11:57 |
| === DBO wants to move to canada so he can use the logo | ||
| DBO | eh, michigan is close enough | 11:57 |
| DBO | Corey Burger wouldnt happen to be related to you would he Madpilot? | 11:58 |
| Madpilot | we're brothers | 11:58 |
| Madpilot | Corey is Burgwork | 11:58 |
| Burgwork | yes, he is my older brother | 11:58 |
| Burgwork | mdke, yelp in gnome 2.12 fails to render that | 11:59 |
| mdke | Burgwork: it's valid, so it should render it. Maybe you are missing the right version of docbook | 11:59 |
| Burgwork | likely, this is FC crap | 11:59 |
| mdke | it's truly beautiful here | 12:00 |
| === mdke sticks up a screenshot for the hell of it | ||
| mdke | http://mdke.org/tmp/docbook.png | 12:01 |
| Burgwork | ok, that is shiny | 12:01 |
| mdke | man that is gonna make edgy rock | 12:01 |
| LaserJock | magnificent | 12:01 |
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