[12:07] <LaserJock> go Matthew go!
[12:07] <LaserJock> books books books!!!
[12:07] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:09] <mdke> Madpilot: my titles are your titles vary a little bit
[12:09] <Madpilot> how so?
[12:09] <mdke> my pt_BR is http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/pt_BR/index.html
[12:10] <mdke> Guia do Desktop Ubuntu
[12:10] <mdke> yours is Guia Desktop Ubuntu
[12:10] <Madpilot> ah... any idea which is more correct?
[12:10] <mdke> that's fine obviously, but I'm getting a bit confused between all these different types of portuguese
[12:10] <mdke> it's going to be hard to tell them apart on the store
[12:10] <Madpilot> hmm
[12:11] <mdke> do you know where your strings come from?
[12:11] <Madpilot> for the UDG ones, from bookinfo.xml via robotgeek's script
[12:12] <mdke> i can't see that string in there
[12:13] <mdke> ah, it's in the omf file
[12:14] <Madpilot> ah, sorry. Yeah, it's from the omf
[12:14] <Madpilot> should I change that pt_BR string on the UDG cover?
[12:14] <mdke> nope, if it's in the omf it must be fine
[12:15] <Madpilot> OK
[12:15] <Madpilot> bunch of KDG covers going up now
[12:15] <mdke> Madpilot: can you upload the english ones too pls?
[12:15] <Madpilot> sure
[12:15] <mdke> thx
[12:15] <Madpilot> thought they were already in the directory, but maybe not
[12:16] <mdke> could be
[12:17] <Madpilot> no, they're not, actually
[12:17] <Madpilot> KDG it, es & pt_BR covers up
[12:18] <Madpilot> again, I can't get anything intelligible out of the ko files :(
[12:18] <mdke> damn
[12:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: ping
[12:18] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, hi
[12:18] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you get my quer?
[12:19] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, yeah, sorry, just overlooked it. One sec.
[12:25] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm, that gender convention question is interesting
[12:25] <mdke> yep
[12:26] <LaserJock> mdke: seems like it would be a good idea to have a "Translation Notes:" section at the beginning of the doc
[12:26] <mdke> a visible one, or an invisible one for the translators?
[12:26] <LaserJock> visible
[12:27] <mdke> sounds doable
[12:27] <Madpilot> mdke, English covers up as UDG_C.png, etc
[12:27] <LaserJock> the point was that some things might need to be explained to the reader about the translational style
[12:28] <mdke> Madpilot: merci
[12:28] <mdke> shit my wifi is going cranky again
[12:28] <LaserJock> Madpilot should really get a gold star for the covers :-)
[12:29] <mdke> yeah, they look great
[12:29] <Madpilot> thanks
[12:30] <mdke> check em out on the storefront
[12:30] <mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
[12:31] <LaserJock> oh nice, it has the free download on there
[12:32] <LaserJock> hehe, I like the "Publisher: Matthew East" on the Kubuntu italian DG :-)
[12:33] <mdke> oh shit
[12:33] <mdke> yeah, tell me if you see things like that
[12:33] <mdke> it autoinserted it and sometimes I will have forgotten to remove it
[12:33] <crimsun> I do like that lulu uses opt-in for spam^H^Hnewsletter
[12:34] <LaserJock> mdke: that's the only one
[12:35] <mdke> cool, fixed
[12:35] <LaserJock> another disaster averted ;-)
[12:36] <LaserJock> hehe, I can't wait for the first lulu.com bug on LP ;-)
[12:38] <LaserJock> mdke: looks like italian UDG doesn't have the language listed
[12:38] <mdke> oh, pain
[12:38] <mdke> thanks
[12:38] <Madpilot> mdke, Server Guide covers in en & pt_BR up
[12:39] <mdke> thanks Madpilot 
[12:40] <LaserJock> mdke: neither does the "Panduan Destop Ubuntu" whatever that is
[12:41] <mdke> LaserJock: your indonesian is almost as bad as your korean
[12:42] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:42] <LaserJock> mdke: actually a lot of them are missing the Language: part
[12:42] <mdke> meh
[12:43] <mdke> damn
[12:44] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_C.png & Packaging_pt_BR.png both up
[12:44] <mdke> nice, so we're just missing the crazy font ones
[12:44] <Madpilot> never mind, I'm an idiot. We need Packaging_sv, not pt_Br
[12:44] <LaserJock> \o/
[12:46] <Madpilot> that's the only guide the Brazillians *haven't* gotten around to translating yet, it seems :)
[12:46] <mdke> yeah, they are crazy those brazilians
[12:47] <LaserJock> grrr
[12:47] <mdke> koreans aren't bad either
[12:47] <mdke> translation machines
[12:47] <LaserJock> I'll have to go down there and crack the whip ;-)
[12:47] <Madpilot> yeah, except that I can't get intelligible strings out of the ko files, or the Chinese ones... 
[12:47] <Madpilot> anyway, Packaging_sv.png is up
[12:47] <mdke> getting it
[12:48] <mdke> Madpilot: is it the script that has the problem with the chinese fonts, or inkscape?
[12:48] <Madpilot> my whole system, it looks like
[12:48] <mdke> did you try copying the strings from help.u.c?
[12:48] <Madpilot> not yet - I'd try that
[12:50] <mdke> man the packaging guide is a snip at $6.29
[12:50] <mdke> I wonder if Lulu thinks it is lower quality than the others
[12:50] <Madpilot> hmm, where is the non-English stuff at help.u.c, mdke?
[12:50] <mdke> Madpilot: substitute C in the url for the language code (zh_CN, ko)
[12:50] <Madpilot> ah
[12:51] <mdke> or if you want the index, index.zh_CN.html
[12:51] <Madpilot> wtf? gnome-panel just went nuts on me...
[12:52] <Madpilot> ...and again. Hopefully it's settled down now... :|
[12:54] <Madpilot> I'm going to re-install ubuntu-desktop and that mass of non-English fonts I always delete, see if that gets me useful Chinese & Korean display
[12:54] <mdke> ah, possibly
[12:56] <mdke> LaserJock: so which are missing languages?
[12:56] <mdke> Italian Desktop Guide has it, at least in my control panel
[12:57] <LaserJock> Ubuntus paketeringguide  
[12:57] <LaserJock> Guia para Servidores Ubuntu
[12:57] <mdke> those both have it in my control panel
[12:57] <mdke> are you sure?
[12:58] <LaserJock> Guia Kubuntu Desktop
[12:58] <mdke> must be a bug
[12:58] <mdke> stupid lulu
[12:58] <LaserJock> it's blank here
[12:58] <mdke> yeah, I see the problem
[12:59] <LaserJock> yay!
[12:59] <Madpilot> does Lulu actually have a bugzilla or something similar?
[01:00] <LaserJock> or a Mattzilla ;-)
[01:01] <mdke> Madpilot: forum
[01:01] <Madpilot> close enough
[01:02] <Madpilot> OK, reinstalling that 100Mb of non-eng fonts has given me useable ko & zh fonts
[01:02] <mdke> \o/, as LaserJock would say
[01:02] <Madpilot> and made a giant mess of my font listings again, but whatever...
[01:02] <mdke> nice one
[01:03] <LaserJock> I learned \o/ not too long ago
[01:03] <LaserJock> I think it's great
[01:03] <mdke> me too
[01:07] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_zh_CN.png & UDG_ko.png both up
[01:08] <mdke> oh, rock. Now to find out which guide is guide
[01:09] <LaserJock> hehe
[01:12] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/KDG_ko.png
[01:13] <Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_ko.png
[01:13] <mdke> i found the image, just not the book
[01:13] <mdke> I will go by process of elimination
[01:14] <LaserJock> mdke: so lulu.com/ubuntu-doc is ready for people to start ordering?
[01:14] <mdke> LaserJock: hope so. You think we should order a final test book?
[01:15] <LaserJock> no, I was just wondering when I could tell my Grandpa to go pick up a copy of the PG ;-)
[01:15] <mdke> Madpilot: something is wrong with the UDG_zh_CN.png (it has a massive Ubuntu logo coming out the right hand side
[01:16] <Madpilot> mdke, I hit the wrong button in Inkscape. Just a sec.
[01:17] <mdke> np
[01:17] <Madpilot> new UDG_zh_CN.png up
[01:18] <mdke> ah, stupid lulu can't handle the fonts on the spine. Oh well
[01:19] <Madpilot> for the non-Latin alphabet stuff?
[01:20] <mdke> yeah, it just comes up blank I think
[01:20] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Packaging_ko.png
[01:20] <mdke> no biggie
[01:22] <mdke> man that's hot: http://www.lulu.com/content/324256
[01:23] <LaserJock> hmm, what is that?
[01:23] <LaserJock> is it the PG?
[01:23] <mdke> not wholly sure
[01:24] <mdke> I think it is Chinese Desktop Guide
[01:24] <Madpilot> mdke, Language string is blank there too
[01:24] <Madpilot> that's ko
[01:24] <Madpilot> Korean
[01:24] <mdke> sure?
[01:24] <Madpilot> actually, no, it's Chinese. Sorry
[01:24] <mdke> I think the ones with "UBuntu" are chinese
[01:24] <LaserJock> I was trying to figure out by page number, but it's hard to tell
[01:24] <mdke> korean packaging guide now up
[01:24] <Madpilot> yeah, the ko ones are pure Korean script, the Chinese ones are mixed for some reason
[01:25] <LaserJock> \o/ I can't read it but it is cool :-)
[01:27] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ko.png
[01:27] <mdke> no wonder I can't find the korean desktop guide, it isn't there
[01:28] <LaserJock> how many translations did the server guide get done in?
[01:28] <mdke> must have forgotten to upload it
[01:28] <mdke> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
[01:28] <LaserJock> ah great
[01:29] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_zh_CN.png
[01:30] <Madpilot> which is, I think, the last of the covers for now?
[01:30] <mdke> I think you're right
[01:30] <Madpilot> yay
[01:30] <mdke> Madpilot: thanks so much
[01:31] <Madpilot> no problem.
[01:31] <Madpilot> for next time, we need to get robotgeek to finish his script, it works only for the UDG omf files right now
[01:31] <mdke> right.
[01:31] <mdke> there are likely to be more languages to come :)
[01:32] <Madpilot> during Dapper, or for Edgy? (do we keep publishing translations during the life of the release?
[01:32] <mdke> yeah, more for Dapper
[01:33] <Madpilot> OK. Keep me posted. I should also write up a short howto on producing the covers, and stick a bunch of the SVG files on the wiki somewhere
[01:35] <mdke> Madpilot: will do.
[01:36] <LaserJock> mwuahahaha
[01:37] <LaserJock> that was my "doc team rules... and will take over the world" laugh :-)
[01:37] <mdke> we are pretty badass, it has to be said
[01:37] <LaserJock> heck yeah
[01:38] <Madpilot> yay us! ;)
[01:39] <mdke> .... and I'm spent
[01:39] <mdke> no idea how many combinations of korean covers and book I've just uploaded
[01:39] <mdke> let's hope the right ones
[01:40] <mdke> hehe
[01:40] <Madpilot> mdke, might want to ping one of the ko translators for a sanity check :)
[01:40] <crimsun> "wants to" or "has to"?
[01:40] <crimsun> I haven't even had time to spec out what I'd like in Edgy
[01:40] <mdke> will do
[01:41] <LaserJock> crimsun: I could always pull an  \sh but "wants to" is starting to turn into "has to" for sure.
[01:41] <Madpilot> mdke, all the prices in Lulu seem to still be listed as "from $0.00"?
[01:42] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, it must be because you can download them for free
[01:42] <Madpilot> ah
[01:42] <LaserJock> that's so cool
[01:42] <mdke> slightly confusing, but still
[01:43] <Madpilot> mdke, can we change the order the items are listed in? Put the English translations first, say?
[01:43] <LaserJock> yeah and group them by doc
[01:44] <LaserJock> gosh we are picky
[01:44] <Madpilot> heh
[01:44] <mdke> that would be very nice, but I'm not sure
[01:44] <Madpilot> OK, just a thought
[01:45] <mdke> oh great, we can
[01:45] <mdke> more than one column too, if we want
[01:46] <LaserJock> cool
[01:46] <mdke> how to order languages?
[01:47] <mdke> and do I sort by language first, or by book?
[01:47] <Madpilot> by book, I'd say
[01:48] <LaserJock> hmm, good question
[01:48] <mdke> so all the UDGs first, then all the KDGs, etc?
[01:48] <Madpilot> I think so
[01:48] <LaserJock> I'd say book, but then it would makes it harder for people wanting to look at all material in their language
[01:48] <Madpilot> UDG-KDG-XDG-Server-Packaging?
[01:49] <LaserJock> yeah, yeah. put me last ;p
[01:50] <mdke> for now, I'm going to do it by language
[01:50] <LaserJock> I guess it would come down to this, do you think people will want to look for a particular doc or for what's available in their language?
[01:50] <mdke> I can't be bothered to work out which is which of the koreans again
[01:50] <Madpilot> mdke, fair enough ;)
[01:50] <LaserJock> hehe, that's a good rationale
[01:50] <mdke> http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
[01:51] <mdke> so hot
[01:51] <Madpilot> looks great
[01:52] <LaserJock> mdke: sabdfl needs that URL :-)
[01:53] <mdke> we'll send him a free book or something ;)
[01:53] <Madpilot> so does The Fridge
[01:53] <mdke> I'll send a few emails, after checking with the translators that everything is ok
[01:53] <LaserJock> mdke: we should have the doc team sign it before we send it to him ;-)
[01:53] <mdke> aww
[01:54] <LaserJock> Rock Stars ;-)
[01:54] <LaserJock> hahaha
[01:56] <LaserJock> have other distros done anything like this? I think it is quite a cool idea
[01:56] <Madpilot> ...bloody character limit in /topic...
[01:56] <LaserJock> hehe, we could probably ditch the Next meeting: bit for now
[01:57] <LaserJock> or at least put a date
[01:57] <Madpilot> there
[01:59] <LaserJock> hmm, anybody know what the propsed Ubuntu Reference Manual would be about?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: reference manual?
[02:00] <mdke> no idea, it's bhuvan's idea
[02:00] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: it's on the meeting agenda
[02:01] <LaserJock> there are a few ideas I had but since I'm doing the Developer's Reference I don't think I'll have time in Edgy :(
[02:03] <LaserJock> what did you guys think about the "why don't you use QA like ubuntuguide.org" bug comment?
[02:04] <mdke> I didn't see that
[02:04] <mdke> fortunately :)
[02:05] <LaserJock> it was at the end of that fax bug
[02:06] <LaserJock> "In contrast, I find the Ubuntu documentation unfriendly, overly technical, and frustrating to find what I want."
[02:06] <mdke> see ot
[02:06] <mdke> it
[02:06] <LaserJock> I'm wondering if this guy is way off or if he has a point
[02:07] <mdke> bit of both, I guess
[02:07] <LaserJock> I really don't see the "overly technical" part
[02:07] <Madpilot> well, the current UDG is closer to ubuntuguide.org in style than most of the stuff on the wiki, I think
[02:07] <crimsun> LaserJock: url? (I just now subbed)
[02:07] <LaserJock> I wonder if the comment was mostly for the wiki
[02:08] <LaserJock> crimsun: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/48298
[02:08] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48298 in ubuntu-doc "There is no mention of how to fax" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  
[02:08] <LaserJock> last comment
[02:11] <crimsun> I definitely don't see the "overly technical" hint
[02:11] <mdke> I hate qa
[02:12] <mdke> what is the difference between 1. How do I install a fax?, and 2. Installing a fax
[02:12] <crimsun> ...unless he's arguing there's no sense in explaining the differences? [e.g., http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/music.html] 
[02:14] <LaserJock> I guess he is mainly saying putting it into more specific sections, "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?" as opposed to looking in a "Printing" section
[02:14] <LaserJock> but I'm guessing that search funtions would help that
[02:14] <crimsun> but the more specific one gets, the more drilling down occurs
[02:16] <crimsun> even if you were to have "How do I print in Ubuntu?" and then "How do I print to Ubuntu from Windows?", it's still "How do I print?"
[02:16] <crimsun> welcome to hierarchy hell
[02:17] <LaserJock> although I did find ubunguguide.org fast since I'd just use FF's find to get what I wanted
[02:17] <LaserJock> it wasn't really informative as a guide though
[02:18] <LaserJock> it was just quick and dirty
[02:18] <LaserJock> which I think is tempting but people really should understand why they are doing what they are doing
[02:19] <mdke> sure, it's tricky to make stuff informative AND accessible
[02:19] <mdke> it can be done though
[02:19] <crimsun> do we need different perspectives, like "user manual" vs. "technical manual"?
[02:20] <crimsun> [imo too much work] 
[02:20] <mdke> you're right, i think
[02:20] <mdke> also because we can make docs which are suitable for both, I hoep
[02:23] <LaserJock> hehe, I thought "technical manual" was call RTFM ;-)
[02:23] <crimsun> LaserJock: it can be
[02:23] <Madpilot> night, mdke 
[02:23] <crimsun> 'night mdke
[02:23] <mdke> night
[02:24] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[02:24] <LaserJock> I'd like to see more advanced user docs, but I just don't know how feasible that is
[02:33] <Burgundavia> it was always my opinion that advanced users are already well served by help
[02:33] <Burgundavia> grandma is the hard use case
[02:34] <LaserJock> yes, but to be honest I'm not much help to grandma
[02:34] <LaserJock> so it is easier for me to think about people like me
[02:34] <LaserJock> but you're absolutely right
[02:34] <Burgundavia> things like the packaging docs are good things
[02:35] <LaserJock> I'm still stuck on the idea of having an introductory guide to Bash and Python scripting
[02:36] <Burgundavia> python in Ubuntu would be a great guide
[02:36] <Burgundavia> make it a little bit marketing, by talking about how Ubuntu rocks for Python
[02:36] <LaserJock> right
[02:36] <LaserJock> and I've noticed AppleScript on OS X
[02:36] <LaserJock> and then new Automator thing
[02:37] <LaserJock> so people can actually use scripting to do "normal" things on their computer
[02:38] <LaserJock> I think that is pretty powerful
[02:39] <LaserJock> I was talking to our sys admin and he was saying that he helps people alot just by taking a couple minutes to write a script that automates stuff people were doing by hand
[02:42] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: people keep bringing up "WTF, why does Ubuntu ship python by default". I'd like to show them a reason. But maybe that's too ambitious for now
[02:44] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: if it is specced well, you will not need to write everything
[02:46] <LaserJock> well, I might try to spec it out and see what people think
[02:46] <LaserJock> it is Edgy after all, we gotta get some crack in ;-)
[02:48] <LaserJock> ok, I'm off to try to convince an undergrad to work for me this summer :)
[03:18] <Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
[03:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: have you had a chance to chat with Joel yet?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> yeah last saturday
[03:19] <jsgotangco> he's still in school and currently having a dilemma on pursuing development and studies, i said focus on school
[03:20] <jsgotangco> since its about to start in a week here
[04:00] <mgalvin> woohoo dead tree docs :)
[04:02] <Madpilot> with shiny covers, too ;)
[04:04] <mgalvin> yea, they look great, excellent work everybody!
[04:05] <mgalvin> so people can actually order they now?
[04:05] <mgalvin> s/they/them/
[04:05] <Madpilot> apparently. Matt East has been taking care of the actual Lulu storefront stuff
[04:06] <mgalvin> cool
[04:08] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: very special issue, lol
[04:09] <Burgundavia> mgalvin: not certain that humour translates out of north america
[04:09] <mgalvin> Burgundavia: haha, jdub wrote that
[04:11] <jsgotangco> i dont get it myself
[04:11] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_special_episode
[04:11] <Burgundavia> it is an 80s TV reference
[04:14] <jsgotangco> heh let's make every week then special
[04:14] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:15] <mgalvin> :)
[04:16] <jsgotangco> im sure a distro like edubuntu can produce tons of specials
[04:16] <jsgotangco> haha
[04:16] <mgalvin> jsgotangco: will be cool when you are in paris, you could be the summit reporter while you are there ;)
[04:16] <mgalvin> are you going there for the whole thing?
[04:17] <jsgotangco> "this week, we tackle the life-changing episodes of people in sub-saharan africa who got to use edubuntu for the first time"
[04:17] <jsgotangco> yeah when i get my visa this week
[04:17] <mgalvin> ha
[04:17] <mgalvin> cool
[04:18] <jsgotangco> hopefully i get to finish all my TODOs in my list before the trip
[04:19] <jsgotangco> or else i'll see myself working in the plane lol
[04:52] <Burgundavia> oh joy, revert war on DVD:RIP
[04:53] <robitaille> on sounder?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> no, wiki page
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I change the installation method away from apt-get and the "creator" reverted
[04:54] <robitaille> :)
[04:55] <Burgundavia> so I reverted and added a note
[04:58] <Burgundavia> ugh, what should I do with these: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoaryBeagleInstallHowto?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
[05:03] <Burgundavia> shall I create a Category504Only ?
[05:05] <Burgundavia> mdke_, jsgotangco ^
[05:13] <Burgundavia> Laser_away: deal with this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch?highlight=%28apt-get+install%29
[07:51] <jsgotangco> robitaille: ping?
[07:56] <robitaille> jsgotangco:  pong
[07:58] <jsgotangco> robitaille: hey i just have one q if you're familiar with it
[07:58] <jsgotangco> robitaille: what makes a software to be part of "restricted"?
[07:59] <robitaille> non-free, but supported somewhat   http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components
[08:01] <robitaille> currently the only things in there I believes are some binary only drivers and kernel modules
[08:01] <jsgotangco> as opposed to multiverse that is non-free and unsupported?
[08:01] <robitaille> yes.
[08:01] <jsgotangco> argghh i missed that page entirely, thanks!
[08:03] <robitaille> interestingly  both my computers don't need restricted, so I usally remove it from my sources.list, remove the packages, and that make my kernel upgrades a bit smaller  (and my computers a bit more free and open :) )
[08:04] <robitaille> I still can't believe the package vrms exists
[11:00] <mdke> Madpilot: I'm adding a "to be done" section to the wiki page, turns out I may have missed a few
[11:00] <Madpilot> ok
[11:05] <Madpilot> mdke, what's the URL of that page off your own wiki page? I've managed to loose it...
[11:07] <mdke> Madpilot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
[11:08] <mdke> just uploading UDG_hr now
[11:09] <Madpilot> I can have the cover for you in a minute or two
[11:12] <Madpilot> ...if Hungarian is hr, what's hu? thought that was Hungarian...
[11:13] <mdke> oops
[11:13] <mdke> hr is croatian
[11:13] <Madpilot> ah
[11:13] <mdke> that's the one we want
[11:13] <mdke> russian seems to be ok too, except there is a strange error with the pdf
[11:13] <Madpilot> OK, so I've got the right strings, I just thought it was a different language ;)
[11:15] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_hr.png
[11:15] <mdke> thanks dude. I'm going to work on russian and polish now
[11:16] <Madpilot> OK, ru & pl covers coming up :)
[11:16] <mdke> i'm not sure which guides are ready from them, presumably at least UDG
[11:18] <Madpilot> I'm doing ru & pl UDG covers now, let me know tomorrow if we need more/different ones
[11:19] <mdke> ok, thanks a lot
[11:21] <Madpilot> UDG_ru & UDG_pl both up
[11:21] <mdke> great, I'll get those sorted, thanks matey
[11:22] <Madpilot> np
[11:22] <Madpilot> it's almost 0230 here, I'm going to crash.
[11:22] <mdke> yeah, good night
[11:22] <Madpilot> email me if we need more covers done
[11:23] <Madpilot> I'm also going to stick a howto on the wiki somewhere so people can do their own :)
[11:23] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:23] <mdke> that would be great
[11:23] <jsgotangco> wow they're big
[11:23] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, 300dpi images
[11:23] <Madpilot> or rather, once Lulu resizes them, they become 300dpi images
[11:24] <rob> hi guys
[11:24] <rob> mdke, well done on lulu
[11:25] <Madpilot> hi rob
[11:25] <mdke> rob: thanks, and Madpilot too for the covers. Thanks for the idea
[11:25] <rob> yes, Madpilot too!
[11:25] <rob> did you get the patch I emailed?
[11:26] <mdke> i saw it on the list
[11:27] <rob> ah ok, good
[11:28] <jsgotangco> yeah print requires 300dpi
[11:28] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, at a minimum, yeah
[11:29] <jsgotangco> some even require bleed
[05:14] <jsgotangco> mdke: can't you drop by in paris even for a day?
[05:17] <mdke> when is it?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> 18-23
[05:18] <jsgotangco> err 19 rather
[05:18] <jsgotangco> 18 is the dinner
[05:18] <jsgotangco> i arrive on the 17th
[05:18] <mdke> hmm. I'm picking up my gf from the airport that weekend, then working that week
[05:18] <mdke> it'll have to be another time
[05:23] <mdke> man there is gonna be some serious flamage on that last sounder thread
[05:31] <jsgotangco> ethical ubuntu?
[05:31] <jsgotangco> heh
[05:32] <jsgotangco> i could only laugh at the irony of the spec
[05:40] <jsgotangco> mgalvin: hmmm these mdz emails about the newsletter seems to hint on making us do it most of the time and have little docteam work heh
[05:40] <jsgotangco> post-release braindumping lol
[05:41] <mgalvin> just what we need, more work ;)
[05:41] <mgalvin> its cool though, they are good ideas
[05:41] <mgalvin> i think as it grows more people will probably
[05:41] <mgalvin> help
[05:42] <mgalvin> in which we will need to better organize it as well
[05:43] <jeffsch> perhaps put it on the docteam site
[05:43] <mgalvin> i was thinking of a developer of the week, something like upload stats and such... but i think it would be seb128 every week :)
[05:44] <mgalvin> jeffsch: we should link to it from there
[05:44] <mdke> jsgotangco: now's your chance to ask jeffsch about the styleguide license
[05:44] <jeffsch> and if you put a docteam member of the week, it would always be mdke
[05:45] <jsgotangco> mdke: actually we talk everyday, it just didnt get into my mind
[05:45] <jsgotangco> jeffsch: do you remember putting the styleguide under Publid Domain?
[05:45] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-January/004798.html
[05:45] <mdke> how fast was that
[05:45] <mdke> jeffsch: thoughts on this gender convention question?
[05:46] <jsgotangco> lol ok thanks for reminding me
[05:46] <jsgotangco> january!
[05:46] <jsgotangco> long time ago!
[05:47] <jeffsch> mdke: it will be difficult to come to a consensus
[05:47] <jeffsch> there are so many different ways to handle it
[05:48] <jeffsch> some are very easy, like "he" means "she" too
[05:48] <jeffsch> others require rewriting the paragraph
[05:48] <jeffsch> plus each culture has its biases
[05:48] <jeffsch> plus each translator....
[05:48] <jeffsch> on and on
[05:49] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:49] <jsgotangco> ours for example is very maternal...
[05:50] <mdke> jeffsch: i'm used to "he" means "she" myself
[05:50] <jsgotangco> we dont address the gender explicitly at all but its implied in some phrases
[05:51] <mdke> i meant just for English really, then we can allow translators to go their own way
[05:51] <jsgotangco> i think the bug was more on Rosetta rather than the document as well
[05:51] <jsgotangco> (how rosetta allows for such in the system)
[05:51] <mdke> well, more or less.
[05:51] <jsgotangco> but then they're strings..
[05:52] <jeffsch> personally, i think when you put a note at the beginning that says "he" means "she", then you are copping out
[05:52] <mdke> I think we should talk about English though, rather than the bug
[05:52] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:52] <mdke> jeffsch: "copping out" being a bad thing?
[05:52] <jeffsch> you're saying "yeah, i know there's a "she", but I can't be bothered to accomodate her
[05:53] <jeffsch> mdke: yeah. it means being lazy or unconcerned
[05:53] <mdke> we could invent a new pronoun then, which means both
[05:53] <mdke> I don't really think it does mean that though
[05:53] <jeffsch> some writing books have whole chapters on the gender thing
[05:54] <jeffsch> it's an issue that is still in flux
[05:54] <jeffsch> a single method has not yet been settled
[05:54] <mdke> do you think we should set a policy for it, or not worry? Not doing so might be doubly copping out
[05:55] <jeffsch> ideally, there should be a policy as well as examples on the various ways of handling it
[05:55] <jsgotangco> jeffsch: not being old school but does strunk & white have anything about this? i dont remember at all
[05:55] <jeffsch> it could probably take a chapter in the styleguide
[05:55] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: hold on, i'll check
[05:55] <mdke> i think we should deal with it
[05:57] <jeffsch> on page 60 of my copy
[05:58] <jsgotangco> "Alternatively, put all controversial nouns in the plural and avoid the choice of sex altogether"
[05:58] <jsgotangco> "although you may find your prose sounding more general and diffuse as a result"
[05:58] <jsgotangco> its mostly geared towards the male gender though
[06:00] <jsgotangco> "The use of he as a pronoun for nouns embracing both genders is a simple, practical convention rooted in the beginnings fo the English language"
[06:01] <jeffsch> "Currently however, many writers find the use of generic he or his to rename indefinite antecedents limiting or offensive>"
[06:02] <jsgotangco> check the author lol
[06:02] <jsgotangco> kidding
[06:02] <mdke> this one uses he or she randomly
[06:03] <jsgotangco> yes its also recommended to mix
[06:03] <jsgotangco> to make it not sound repetitive and boring  too
[06:04] <jsgotangco> we'll have to write in the 3rd person
[06:04] <jsgotangco> or plural
[06:04] <jsgotangco> but that is avoiding it altogether
[06:06] <jsgotangco> i cannot say really, it is quite hard to describe a lot of things in the 3rd person
[06:07] <jsgotangco> well not so hard, but depends on the style of the writer as well
[06:07] <jeffsch> are there any specific instances in our current docs where it could be and issue?
[06:07] <jsgotangco> well instructions per se are 3rd person
[06:08] <jeffsch> or was it just the bug thing?
[06:08] <jsgotangco> the bug is more of rosetta not havign the facility for such
[06:08] <jsgotangco> rather than the document
[06:10] <jeffsch> hmmm... is there a facility for a translator to add translator notes to a doc?
[06:12] <jsgotangco> hmmm come to think of it
[06:12] <jsgotangco> i dont see it
[06:12] <jsgotangco> only translator-credits
[06:12] <jsgotangco> but *only* if there is a provision for such
[06:14] <jeffsch> perhaps an empty para in an appropriate place in the english docs. the translators can leave it empty or stick in some notes
[06:14] <mdke> yes, that won't be a problem
[06:14] <mdke> I'm more concerned about what to do for the English :)
[06:15] <jeffsch> perhaps we can cop out and ask ubuntu-women to write that section of the styleguide for us ;)
[06:16] <mdke> not a bad idea to get their views actually
[06:17] <jsgotangco> hey that's a good idea
[06:17] <jsgotangco> they're asking for guidance anyway
[06:17] <jsgotangco> let's give 'em work
[06:18] <jeffsch> last ask them rather than giving them 
[06:21] <jeffsch> come up with a preliminary spec and ask for input and advice
[06:26] <LaserJock> umm, so does the doc team offically handle the newsletter?
[06:26] <LaserJock> I'm getting so confused by all the newlettery things running about
[06:27] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you around?
[06:27] <mdke> he's right here!
[06:27] <jsgotangco> even though its basically me, mgalvin and Riddell who started it, anyone can actually dive in
[06:27] <Burgwork> mdke, right, just noticed that
[06:29] <mgalvin> i just figured it was best to associate it the the doc team at large since it is docs, although its not meant to force anyone to anything
[06:29] <LaserJock> I like the idea, personally
[06:29] <Burgwork> yep, and the marketing team is busy with other, useless, things
[06:29] <LaserJock> associating with a team is a good idea, IMO
[06:29] <mdke> this would be ideal for the marketing team
[06:30] <mdke> but I'm starting to get the impression there isn't really one
[06:30] <mdke> corey forwarded them the email about the newsletter, no responses
[06:31] <mgalvin> there is one, they just don't do anything... ok i will stop being mean ;)
[06:31] <jsgotangco> well
[06:31] <Burgwork> they do, they just don't integrate with the rest of us
[06:31] <LaserJock> ok, but the individual derivatives have there own newsletter, right? but this one is sort of the Ubntu project as a whole?
[06:32] <mgalvin> i think jenda is part of that team, we started talking the other day, i've got to catch up with him again
[06:32] <jsgotangco> no the derivative newsletters are history
[06:32] <jsgotangco> were just merging everything
[06:32] <jeffsch> who is the intended audience?
[06:33] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: history :(
[06:33] <mgalvin> jeffsch: internal management, developers and community at large 
[06:33] <jsgotangco> yeah like we're issue 1 and we got closed heh
[06:33] <jsgotangco> at least kubuntu got to issue 2
[06:33] <Burgwork> mgalvin, jenda is indeed part of that team
[06:33] <jenda> me?
[06:34] <jenda> what team? sorry sooo busy... (with ubuntu now)
[06:34] <apokryphos> mdke, Burgwork: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/CommonQuestions
[06:34] <apokryphos> feedback greatly appreciated =)
[06:34] <jenda> (ping me if you need me)
[06:34] <mgalvin> jenda: i was just saying i need to catch up with you at some point to talk about the newletter/marking relationship
[06:34] <mgalvin> i am busy too, so not right now ;)
[06:35] <jenda> OK :)
[06:36] <jsgotangco> its also one way to jumpstart the marketing team
[06:36] <Burgwork> yep, as long it doesn't fall on the floor
[06:37] <mgalvin> bbl
[06:38] <mdke> apokryphos: will do. Some structure would work, dividing the page up a bit
[06:38] <LaserJock> Burgwork: btw, I'm not sure what to do with that packaging wiki page
[06:38] <Burgwork> LaserJock, can it be killed and redirected to your packaging guide?
[06:39] <apokryphos> mdke: there is a little, but it's tough to do completely as it's too large for no sections, too small for general sections.
[06:39] <mdke> hmm
[06:40] <LaserJock> Burgwork: well, that has been something on my mind. I'm not sure if the PG should obsolete wiki pages. I like having devs and wannabes use the wiki pages for braindumps and stuff which I can then clean up and put in the PG
[06:40] <apokryphos> over time that would probably be easier (if it grew), but at the moment it's not a s clear I'd say.
[06:40] <LaserJock> but many of the pages right now are wrong, for the wrong release, or are really not needed anymore
[06:41] <mdke> apokryphos: it mustn't grow, I think it's already too big tbh. If it grows, you'll just start making another duplicate guide
[06:41] <jenda> Can you folks help me get the Czech team included here? http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local?action=show&redirect=support%2Fsupportoptions%2Flocal
[06:41] <jenda> who should i contact?
[06:41] <apokryphos> mdke: what's the other appropriate guide that you think it would be a duplicate of?
[06:42] <mdke> jenda: I've been doing that recently
[06:42] <mdke> apokryphos: like, all documentation
[06:42] <jenda> So you could do that if I give you the necessary facts?
[06:42] <apokryphos> mdke: it's not the same at all. This guide links to other documentation; it works as a generalized faq to sections of the wiki and the ubuntu site
[06:43] <mdke> jenda: yes. msg me them, or post to loco-contacts
[06:43] <mdke> apokryphos: the problem we have when large guides start springing up like this is that a user looks at the resources available and doesn't know where to click
[06:43] <mdke> that's bad
[06:44] <apokryphos> it's perhaps misleading to view it as a large guide, as I said. It's a guide that tells you just where to look
[06:44] <mdke> the size doesn't really matter
[06:44] <jsgotangco> good night all
[06:44] <mdke> the problem arises when the user sees 5 different resources, instead of one
[06:45] <jeffsch> jsgotangco: sleep well
[06:45] <Burgwork> LaserJock, then can you do that?
[06:45] <apokryphos> this can serve more as a guide to many pages of the wiki, even
[06:45] <mdke> apokryphos: like UserDocumentation does, you think?
[06:46] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I can certainly try :-)
[06:46] <apokryphos> mdke: it's good, but it's not nearly the same; I'd say it was too general and certainlly couldn't act as a full FAQ to the wiki and users on IRC
[06:46] <jsgotangco> wow that's a pretty nice faq though
[06:47] <apokryphos> the search is just about as good as a search can be on a wiki, but it's not quite as perfect, or as readable/accessible 
[06:48] <Burgwork> LaserJock, sure
[06:48] <apokryphos> I think a link to that on UserDocumentation would be decent enough, and I'd say it's a lot more patched up now (still open to particular feedback though)
[06:49] <apokryphos> ah, mounting windoze partitions; gotta add that in.
[06:50] <LaserJock> boy there's a lot of old cruft and crappy wiki pages laying around :/
[06:51] <Burgwork> LaserJock, yep
[06:52] <mdke> apokryphos: my advice is to confine it to only a few questions, like 15 max 
[06:52] <apokryphos> why?
[06:52] <apokryphos> mdke: as long as organisation is maintained when it gets larger, I think it'd be just fine
[06:52] <mdke> because I think that otherwise it will simply become an attempt to replace existing documentation, and will be confusing to read
[06:53] <apokryphos> much better to have the information available and for it to take someone a little longer to find on the page (though I don't think this is a necessary consequence) than to not have the answer available at all
[06:53] <mdke> sigh
[06:53] <apokryphos> mdke: I can't imagine how you'd argue that it replaces existing documentation when it explicitly links out to it all in practically every answer
[06:53] <mdke> ok, so s/documentation/index
[06:54] <LaserJock> apokryphos: I think the problem is this, there is lots of entry points to documentation throw at users
[06:54] <apokryphos> if the index is as it is (which I don't think is wrong) it follows as necessary to have a more complete guide (or index, in the fuller sense) with these things available
[06:55] <mdke> apokryphos: right, but right now, your page isn't an index at all, it's half way between
[06:55] <apokryphos> LaserJock: for the most quintessential questions (the page being an FAQ in itself) there isn't
[06:55] <mdke> but the whole point we subcategorised the index was that we were going in the opposite direction to this
[06:55] <apokryphos> the subcategories are fine and dandy, but as I said, they don't nearly provide the information as readily
[06:56] <apokryphos> and for many of those it's also the case that you simply wouldn't find them from any of the subcategories
[06:56] <mdke> apokryphos: yes. All you are saying is you disagree with what we have discussed a million times and come to a different view
[06:56] <apokryphos> having simply a few subcategories cannot be the solution
[06:56] <apokryphos> I didn't notice us discussing it a million times, and I'm not just saying I disagree (I'm providing substantiation) 
[06:57] <mdke> apokryphos: "us" = the team, rather than you and us
[06:57] <apokryphos> if you disagree with my reasoning then that's another issue for you to pick up, but it's not the case that I'm just blindly disagreeing; I hardly want to argue for no reason :)
[06:57] <apokryphos> ok
[06:57] <mdke> another thing I'm concerned about is duplication of this document - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
[06:58] <apokryphos> not quite a duplication
[06:58] <apokryphos> (at all)
[06:59] <jjesse> stupdi question, but i always forget what packages i need to validate and also build the doc
[06:59] <apokryphos> that provides the answer to a few (very few questions), whereas this is a full-blown wiki faq
[06:59] <LaserJock> apokryphos: but again, I'm seeing lots of different places to get somewhat similar info. It is confusing to me and I think it could be quite confusing to new users
[07:00] <apokryphos> LaserJock: this provides link to and into the wiki; the fact that there are multiple places to get the info is a simple fact, this merely directs into it
[07:00] <mdke> apokryphos: actually, as far as I can see, lots of your answers are on that page
[07:00] <apokryphos> it's not as if I'm creating another wiki, I'm linking to parts into the wiki
[07:01] <apokryphos> some are, some aren't. That page is not a wiki.
[07:01] <apokryphos> I have to shoot off to dinner, I can continue discussion when I'm back :)
[07:01] <LaserJock> apokryphos: right, I understand that, but we still have multiple places to go to find that info
[07:01] <mdke> apokryphos: well, actually, that page is a wiki
[07:01] <mdke> it's on a wiki, at any rate
[07:01] <mvirkkil> mdke: just dropped in to say hi, and idle :)
[07:01] <mdke> just to get rid of the magic "wiki" word
[07:01] <apokryphos> editable by regular users; I thought that was presupposed 
[07:02] <mdke> mvirkkil: welcome back :)
[07:02] <mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :)
[07:02] <apokryphos> anyhow, I really have to go; back later guys
[07:02] <mdke> me too, cyall
[07:02] <LaserJock> apokryphos: it's got good info though, good work on that
[07:03] <LaserJock> cya mdke 
[07:22] <jjesse> sorry dropped my connection, what packages are needed to validate and also build the docs?
[07:23] <LaserJock> docbook-xsl?
[07:25] <jjesse> libxml2-utils
[07:59] <apokryphos> back guys
[08:00] <mdke> jjesse: apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs
[08:01] <apokryphos> to clarify my thoughts, and to avoid spiralling to an endless pit: (i) I do not think this is a duplication of effort. I do not see ubuntuguide as appropriate (I can expand), the wiki search as appropriate, or the ubuntu.com FAQ. Each for reasons I can clarify
[08:01] <apokryphos> I think the guide should welcome other FAQ content as long as it is a FAQ, it's kept manageable and organised
[08:02] <apokryphos> I'm not sure of its role with regard to the entire wiki and its structure, and you guys are the boss, so if you really want it a particular way (hidden or not mentioned there) then I'll be fine with that
[08:03] <apokryphos> Needless to say, I think this is the *exact* FAQ that could shape up to be i.e. in an IRC channel topic, a link to provide to friends. I think it greatly complements the wiki rather than duplicates effort anywhere, and I think that should be its aim
[08:09] <apokryphos> ok, just added mounting/xgl+compiz faq
[08:10] <LaserJock> apokryphos: I guess you should probably link the the ubuntu.com FAQ first off and then don't do any Questions that are the same
[08:11] <apokryphos> LaserJock: not really because I wouldn't want the faq to be "check there for the answer first, if it's not there read this faq"
[08:11] <LaserJock> but if ubuntu has an offical FAQ that should be the first place people should go
[08:12] <LaserJock> the wiki is fine and dandy, but I'd rather get the answer straight from the horse's mouth if I can
[08:12] <apokryphos> I don't see the problem with having the information there too. Having to first check through one faq, and *then* check through another is annoying
[08:13] <apokryphos> the horse's mouth is good, and we should try to link to it where that's relevant
[08:13] <apokryphos> for additional information etc. That faq is linked to below under support options
[08:14] <apokryphos> but I don't want to get into a whole debate on the validity of wikis as mediums for support/advice
[08:14] <apokryphos> that FAQ is a little outdated, I'll email the relevant people later if I get round to it
[08:15] <apokryphos> ......unless someone here has editing privileges?
[08:15] <LaserJock> I think there are people who do
[08:16] <LaserJock> I know that a ubuntu-website ML is in the works so people can talk about the website
[08:16] <mdke> apokryphos: why don't you work on improving the faq on the website? We can update it for you.
[08:16] <mdke> merge the two projects
[08:16] <apokryphos> mdke: I think that resolves a lot of issues
[08:17] <apokryphos> still doesn't have the easyness of it being a freely editable wiki, which I think can help
[08:17] <apokryphos> also wouldn't it be questionable to reference practical (but things of questionable legality) on that page?
[08:18] <LaserJock> no
[08:18] <LaserJock> linking to RestrictedFormats for  instance is a good thing
[08:18] <mdke> well, don't be illegal obviously
[08:19] <apokryphos> giving advice on how to install some of those restricted formats is of questionable legality, though
[08:19] <LaserJock> telling people to go to RestrictedFormats has no questionable legality
[08:20] <apokryphos> though if recommending the whole of RestrictedFormats page is fine, then there's no issue there
[08:22] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation also has some of the CommonQuestion items
[08:22] <apokryphos> yup
[08:26] <LaserJock> I like a lot of those items apokryphos, but my thought is that I'd rather see them folded into the ubuntu.com FAQ and UserDocumentation, but that's just IMO
[08:27] <apokryphos> LaserJock: it'd be nice to get all of that information as easily accessible (regardless of its location), I believe, too. I think there are a few drawbacks to having it woven into the ubuntu.com FAQ but I'll leave that up to you guys
[08:27] <apokryphos> having it folded into UserDocumentation could work, but I think that page servers more as an introductory page to the entire wiki, whereas the CommonQuestions page acts simply as an FAQ to new users
[08:29] <LaserJock> well, my thinking is this. If they really are FAQ then people shouldn't have to go to the wiki to find them.
[08:29] <apokryphos> but having them on the wiki gives a lot of advantages
[08:30] <LaserJock> like?
[08:30] <apokryphos> and the answers it provides are very often linking right into the wiki
[08:30] <apokryphos> that anyone can edit it
[08:30] <apokryphos> and others (like me) can just help with organising it later
[08:31] <LaserJock> my experience has been that once you let anyone edit it the quality starts going downhill
[08:31] <apokryphos> I really don't want to argue here at all (I do apologise); I'm seriously just trying to help, and offering an idea
[08:31] <apokryphos> LaserJock: so let's try to stop that, with this page :)
[08:31] <LaserJock> no, that's fine
[08:31] <LaserJock> you are helping
[08:32] <LaserJock> but sometimes we have to work through what the best way to present the info is, and how to go about things
[08:32] <tuxmaniac> sorry to interrupt. apokryphos discussions does not mean opposition.. It is just a way of getting others views and chosing the best
[08:33] <apokryphos> I don't doubt it
[08:33] <LaserJock> we have been going over and over a bit with this though
[08:34] <apokryphos> yes
[08:37] <apokryphos> hm, how do I make "x y" link to xy?
[08:38] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure, I'm just a casual wiki user
[08:38] <apokryphos> nevermind, got it
[09:07] <apokryphos> ok, added a few more parent sections and did a bit of restructuring, while adding more questions. Should be more accessible now.
[09:19] <jjesse> l
[09:20] <Burgwork> mgalvin, are you aware of the wikipedia signpost?
[09:21] <mgalvin> Burgwork: huh? nope
[09:22] <Burgwork> mgalvin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost
[09:22] <mgalvin> looking
[09:22] <Burgwork> they have been very successful in running a newsletter
[09:24] <mgalvin> cool, i'll have to take a closer look in a bit, busy at work atm
[09:25] <mgalvin> Burgwork: thanks for pointing me at it
[09:27] <Burgwork> mgalvin, np
[09:35] <Burgwork> mdke, hmm, -uk contact issues?
[09:46] <mdke> Burgwork: not that I know of. I'm just surprised he randomly emailed the loco-list without discussing it on the -uk list first
[09:47] <mgalvin> man the wiki seems slow
[09:47] <mdke> yeah it is
[09:47] <mdke> too many pages
[09:48] <Burgwork> mdke, that was what I meant
[09:48] <LaserJock> mdke: can we make string changes in the dapper docs for -updates
[09:48] <mdke> LaserJock: erm.
[09:48] <mdke> no, i'm pretty sure we can't
[09:49] <mdke> dapper uploads automatically get pushed to rosetta, so it would break translations
[09:49] <LaserJock> hmm, bummer
[09:49] <mdke> then again, the packaging guide isn't so widely translated, I'd say that it can be your call
[09:49] <LaserJock> why would it break translations?
[09:50] <mdke> well, because new strings will come in
[09:50] <LaserJock> but if the docs are still being translated post-release isn't that not really a problem
[09:50] <mdke> yeah, that's true
[09:51] <mdke> but you need to make sure that the teams that have translated those strings already know to retranslate them
[09:51] <mdke> and have time to do so
[09:51] <LaserJock> ah
[09:51] <LaserJock> I thought they had a "this string has changed" flag or something
[09:51] <mdke> well, they'll be untranslated, so it's obvious yeah
[09:52] <mdke> but they might not look :)
[09:52] <LaserJock> slackers ;-)
[09:53] <LaserJock> ok, well I was just going to try to address the bug in the chroot directions that was just on the ML
[09:57] <mdke> LaserJock: I'm fine with you deciding
[09:57] <mgalvin> anyone know 'Mav' a polish translator?
[09:57] <LaserJock> mdke: hehe, thanks a lot. :p 
[09:59] <mdke> mgalvin: no, why?
[10:00] <mgalvin> Mav is translating issue 1 into polish and i just wanted to try to catch up with him/her
[10:00] <mgalvin> i would like to try to organize the page a bit better
[10:00] <mgalvin> maybe something like UWN/Issue1/LANG
[10:01] <mdke> mgalvin: I'd suggest you invite translators to publish them on their individual sites
[10:01] <mdke> mgalvin: we'll be doing that for italian
[10:01] <mdke> it won't be possible to get everyone to do it in the wiki
[10:06] <mgalvin> mdke: true, i guess i'll email the translators list and just let them add a simple link to translated versions or something
[10:06] <mdke> that works too
[10:29] <rob> oh, have you guys seen this: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/05/1340255
[10:31] <mgalvin> oh nice
[10:33] <mgalvin> ooo, and the finally have the new look, neat
[10:33] <rob> yeah, I noticed that too, all ajax and stuff too
[10:34] <mgalvin> sweet
[10:34] <rob> this is encouraging: "Lets hope other distributions follow Ubuntu's lead on this one.."
[10:35] <rob> I really have to stop quickly checking that site before going to work each morning
[10:35] <mgalvin> indeed!
[10:39] <rob> ok, better go to work
[10:41] <mdke> slashdotted?
[10:41] <mdke> w00t
[10:42] <DBO> slashdot, the only good DDoS
[10:43] <LaserJock> I made my first /. post for that
[10:43] <LaserJock> as an Anonymous Coward of course
[10:43] <mdke> the embedded fonts one?
[10:43] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:44] <LaserJock> I couldn't remember exactly, but I thought that was it
[10:45] <mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
[10:45] <crimsun> interesting, I can't secondary-click in epiphany while a page is loading
[10:45] <DBO> crimsun, seconded
[10:45] <DBO> but I can if I switch to a different tab
[10:49] <mdke_> did I miss anything?
[10:50] <crimsun> < mgalvin> whats the polish lang code?
[10:50] <crimsun> that's about it, I think
[10:50] <mdke_> pl
[10:51] <mgalvin> thanks
[10:51] <mdke_> thanks crimsun 
[10:52] <crimsun> np
[10:53] <mgalvin> hmm, need a second opinion...
[10:53] <mgalvin> for the issues lang sub-pages, should i use the lang code or the lang name?
[10:54] <mgalvin> i was leaning toward the code
[10:54] <crimsun> why not "name (code)"?
[10:54] <crimsun> oh, for Web 
[10:54] <mgalvin> yea, on the wiki
[10:55] <mgalvin> UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1/pl
[10:55] <mgalvin> why?
[10:55] <mdke_> mgalvin: we discussed it already
[10:55] <mgalvin> only for ones that are hosted on wiki.ubuntu.com
[10:55] <mgalvin> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/SubmittingTranslations
[10:55] <mdke_> http://ubuntu.pl/
[10:55] <mgalvin> well, Mav created it on the wiki :-/
[10:56] <mdke_> yeah, that's my point
[10:56] <mdke_> I think translators should be encouraged to integrate with their own sites, because that's where polish speakers go
[10:56] <mdke_> english speakers will be on the wiki
[10:57] <mgalvin> i'll have to try and catch up with him and see if he can do that
[10:57] <mdke_> but this is just my opinion, people should do what they think is best
[11:03] <mdke_> heya Madpilot 
[11:03] <Madpilot> hi
[11:04] <mdke> the lulu thing got slashdotted
[11:04] <Madpilot> wheee
[11:04] <mdke> Madpilot: we're just missing the cover for russian server guide, afaics
[11:05] <Madpilot> OK, I can get that in a bit
[11:06] <mdke> I'm quite disappointed that Lulu doesn't show us the sales of actual books, but just the total (downloaded and printed)
[11:06] <crimsun> (complain!)
[11:06] <mdke> (I did)
[11:06] <LaserJock> hmm, I'm pretty sure they will have a Mattzilla pretty soon for you
[11:06] <mdke> http://www.lulu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40491
[11:09] <Burgwork> Madpilot, are you not supposed to be working?
[11:10] <Madpilot> Burgwork, booked the day off, I'm working most of next weekend
[11:10] <Burgwork> ah
[11:10] <LaserJock> lol
[11:13] <Burgwork> LaserJock, are you amused that the person who is working (and is clearly not) asking somebody else if they are working?
[11:13] <LaserJock> no, "Am I my brother's keeper?" came to mind
[11:13] <Madpilot> Burgwork, I should contact your boss and tell him to block IRC's ports on your work server ;)
[11:13] <Burgwork> right
[11:14] <Burgwork> first of all, I (and Brett), control the entire IT infrastructure here
[11:14] <Burgwork> 2nd, I have root on every machine in the office
[11:14] <mdke> they must be crazy
[11:15] <Burgwork> heh
[11:15] <Madpilot> absolutely
[11:15] <crimsun> help help I'm being oppressed
[11:15] <mdke> bloody peasant
[11:15] <LaserJock> Burgwork: is Tim your boss?
[11:16] <Burgwork> yes, but he is in Calgary, thank the lord
[11:16] <Burgwork> my boss is Tim's older brother, Daniel
[11:19] <Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ServerGuide_ru.png
[11:19] <Madpilot> mdke, I've also update the UDG_ru cover, to use the same typeface as ServerGuide_ru - the Cyrillic looks way better now
[11:20] <mdke> word
[11:21] <Burgwork> page
[11:25] <mvirkkil> mdke: ThomasWaldmann
[11:25] <mdke> mvirkkil: context?
[11:25] <mvirkkil> mdke: Argh.. Miss-paste
[11:26] <mvirkkil> mdke: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de
[11:26] <mdke> ok, cool
[11:27] <mdke> mvirkkil: so do you want some examples to test with?
[11:28] <mdke> something hardcore like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenSSL
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: Urgh.. Well, if you like :) 
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: I haven't done intensive testing..
[11:30] <mdke> I'll give it a go
[11:30] <mvirkkil> mdke: Just small testcases.
[11:31] <mdke> oh...
[11:31] <mdke> shall I delete it?
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: Njah.. Do as you please
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: The more the merrier :)
[11:31] <mvirkkil> mdke: But if you find issues, a small testcase would be nicer :)
[11:32] <mdke> works in yelp
[11:32] <mdke> IZ VALID!
[11:33] <mdke> holy shit
[11:33] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'll take that as a compliment :D
[11:33] <mdke> that's pretty damn cool
[11:34] <mdke> nice one dude
[11:34] <mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks :) 
[11:35] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm going to work on generating a single book from multiple pages.
[11:35] <mdke> mvirkkil: sounds fun :)
[11:35] <mdke> Burgwork: mvirkkil is working on the wiki->docbook SoC project, already looking good
[11:35] <mvirkkil> mdke: But I think I've solved the largest problems. Now I just need to implement it ;)
[11:35] <LaserJock> \o/
[11:36] <mdke> mvirkkil: well done, that's great stuff. Is it going to work with 1.5 and above only?
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm working agains the 1.6 branch as are all the other SoC:s 
[11:37] <mdke> oh right
[11:37] <mdke> we have 1.3.4 on our servers :D
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah.. I know :)
[11:37] <mdke> we'll have to get them to upgrade sharpish
[11:38] <mvirkkil> mdke: There have been cleanups in various parts, but the largest ones went in to the 1.3 branch, so it might be backportable.
[11:38] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm not going to try though :) 
[11:38] <mdke> fair enough
[11:39] <mdke> rob: by the way, is that your post to /. ?
[11:40] <mvirkkil> mdke: Fedora solved it by creating a small service which takes a page url, requests the raw wiki syntax and runs it through the parser and formatter to return the docbook to the callee.
[11:41] <mdke> right
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: So they have their old 1.3.x wiki, but when they want docbook, they run it throug a more up to date wiki, to re-parse and re-format the page on the fly.
[11:41] <Madpilot> Anyone else noticed that packages.ubuntu.com is still defaulting to only searching Breezy's repos?
[11:41] <mdke> instead of upgrading?
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: At the moment yes. 
[11:41] <mdke> ic
[11:41] <mvirkkil> mdke: But I got the feeling they are going to update soonish.
[11:43] <mdke> mvirkkil: I hope you don't use fedora now!
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: There are some simple improvements in newer versions like strikethrough, but I suppose both ubuntu and fedora feel that the 1.3 version is/was good enough.
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: Nope, and my mentor knows it :)
[11:43] <mdke> good.
[11:43] <mdke> well, the WYSIWYG editor is a massive bonus in 1.5
[11:43] <mvirkkil> mdke: Coming from a debian background, I wouldn't know how to deal with day to day tasks..
[11:44] <mvirkkil> mdke: That means wysiwyg editing of docbooks ;)
[11:44] <mdke> it does indeed
[11:44] <mvirkkil> There's also some other seriously cool stuff brewing in moin.
[11:44] <mdke> moin is great
[11:44] <mdke> shame they only got a few soc projects
[11:45] <mdke> Madpilot: uploaded, grazie
[11:45] <Madpilot> de nada
[11:45] <mvirkkil> mdke: The wiki sync for example. Allowing to separate wikis to transparently sync the pages they want in sync.
[11:45] <DBO> wait... de nada... italian right?
[11:46] <Madpilot> DBO, very funny ;)
[11:46] <Madpilot> no, de nada is es
[11:46] <DBO> ok
[11:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: So distributions could share certain documentation, collaborativle improve them accross wikis.
[11:46] <DBO> Madpilot, I thought you should know
[11:46] <mdke> mvirkkil: nice
[11:46] <Madpilot> DBO, thank you. I think. :)
[11:46] <mvirkkil> mdke: And the [[GetText(DistributionName)] ]  could take care of branding.
[11:46] <mdke> mvirkkil: that does sound exciting
[11:47] <mvirkkil> Since the dictionary could hold "branding" information.
[11:48] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah... Should limit the duplication of docs and difficulty of merging separate documentation in to a canonical whole.
[11:48] <mdke> hmmmm
[11:48] <mdke> limiting duplication...
[11:48] <mdke> duplicious
[11:49] <Burgwork> mdke, very cool
[11:50] <mvirkkil> And all larger distros already use docbook, ubuntu, fedora and suse (though they have som suse.dtd of their own).
[11:50] <mvirkkil> And gnome, ubuntu and fedora use moinmoin.
[11:50] <mdke> Gnome based distros
[11:51] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yup.. So basically all using and writing documentation for the same tools.
[11:51] <LaserJock> Madpilot: I like the Ubuntu CA logo :-)
[11:51] <Madpilot> LaserJock, thanks
[11:52] <mvirkkil> mdke: Well, now I need to get some sleep. It's almost 1am and I've got to be at work at 8am
[11:52] <mdke> mvirkkil: alright, have fun and keep up the good work
[11:55] <Madpilot> DBO, www.ubuntu-ca.org
[11:56] <Burgwork> DBO, planet.ubuntu as a big version
[11:56] <DBO> you did that Madpilot? =)
[11:56] <mdke> Burgwork: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/OpenSSL -> Render as docbook -> Open in yelp
[11:56] <Madpilot> yes
[11:56] <Madpilot> Inkscape is wonderful :)
[11:57] <DBO> its... its beautiful
[11:57] <DBO> eh, michigan is close enough
[11:58] <DBO> Corey Burger wouldnt happen to be related to you would he Madpilot?
[11:58] <Madpilot> we're brothers
[11:58] <Madpilot> Corey is Burgwork 
[11:58] <Burgwork> yes, he is my older brother
[11:59] <Burgwork> mdke, yelp in gnome 2.12 fails to render that
[11:59] <mdke> Burgwork: it's valid, so it should render it. Maybe you are missing the right version of docbook
[11:59] <Burgwork> likely, this is FC crap
[12:00] <mdke> it's truly beautiful here
[12:01] <mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/docbook.png
[12:01] <Burgwork> ok, that is shiny
[12:01] <mdke> man that is gonna make edgy rock
[12:01] <LaserJock> magnificent