/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/06/06/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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k31thYo guys wats cracking12:16
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LaserJockhi k31th 12:24
theCoremdke: that is sweet12:47
theCorewith a little bit of work, we could ship the Wiki with Ubuntu12:49
theCorehmm, maybe not12:49
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theCoreat least, it will make Wiki->Docs conversions easier12:52
=== theCore wonder why Yelp hasn't Open (File|URL)
BurgworktheCore, because that is not how it is designed12:59
mdkectrl L01:00
theCoremdke: oh, thanks01:01
mvirkkilThere's a nice runthrough of the markup: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/SyntaxReference01:01
mvirkkilConverting it shows that the formatter is quite complete.01:02
mvirkkilThough the macros TableOfContents and ShowSmileys are blacklisted inside the formatter and won't produce any output.01:03
mvirkkilTableOfContents shouldn't be enabled even if it did work, since the docbookviewers have to be able to generate their own tables of contents..01:04
mdkemvirkkil: that looks very good yeah. Weren't you going to bed?01:08
LaserJockyeah, that's what I was going to say01:09
LaserJockof course the same goes for you Matthew01:09
mdkemvirkkil: you don't mind me blogging about your project I suppose?01:09
mdkeLaserJock: yeah...01:09
mvirkkilmdke: I really should have, but I was just so surprised about the entusiasm here.01:12
mvirkkilmdke: Blog away if you want.01:13
mvirkkilmdke: Perhaps you could leave a direct link to the wiki out of your post.01:13
mvirkkilmdke: but it's up to you..01:14
LaserJockmvirkkil: well we have to deal a lot with the wiki and docbook so it really is pretty exciting for us :-)01:16
mvirkkilLaserJock: It's always nice when ones work is appreciated :) 01:18
mdkemvirkkil: I will not post a direct link if you wish01:18
mvirkkilmdke: I'm not sure why i wouldn't want you to put a direct link.. I dunno. Go ahead and put one if it "comes naturally". 01:21
mvirkkilI guess i was nervous about it getting hammered.. but I'm sure it can take it..01:21
mdkemvirkkil: I won't link it, it doesn't matter :)01:22
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mdkegnight01:22
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Madpilotoh dear: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatDoNonGeeksWant01:52
LaserJockoh I hope I'm around for the discussion of that spec ;-)01:53
Burgworkwe need a pool01:53
=== Burgwork wants a pony
Burgworka poll, even01:54
LaserJockI think if we included IE as the default browser that spec would be implemented ;-)01:54
Burgworkheh, no01:55
kermitX_WhatDoNonGeeksWant: good documentation.02:02
kermitX_;)02:02
kermitX_that is the single biggest complaint i hear around here about linux in general.02:03
Madpilotit's a legit complaint, to some extent, but that's a textbook case of a useless spec, in it's current form...02:04
Burgworkgood documentation is merely a crutch for bad implementation, in my view02:04
Madpilothuh?02:05
kermitX_ok then.. ;)   the other thing the NonGeeks want is to never have to go to console for anything. they're afraid of the little black window.. heck, if they're scared to go into a DOS window, how are they gonna manage in a linux terminal?02:05
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LaserJockwell, I don't really like DOS windows either02:08
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theCoreI never used MS-DOS, except for ipconfig, but I wouldn't live without my Terminal on Linux02:43
theCoredid you know that O'reilly is making a book about Ubuntu?02:44
Madpilotyes02:44
theCoreI don't know if it awsome or not02:46
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mgalvintheCore: which book are you referring to?03:11
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MadpilotOK, that's odd. When I go System->Help->Ubuntu Book Excerpts, it opens in Bluefish06:53
jsgotangcoodd06:53
jsgotangcoyou might have defaulted HTML to bluefish06:54
Madpilotguess so06:54
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jsgotangcogee its quite hot today 32C07:54
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jsgotangcoi will die08:05
mvirkkilHere: http://outside.hut.fi/08:08
jsgotangco11C is fab08:12
mvirkkiljsgotangco: :)08:13
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Burgundaviaanybody got a hoary or breezy box still?08:34
jsgotangcowell i have one at work08:34
robitailleI can boot in Breezy in a few minutes (I still have it in a 2nd partition on both my computers)08:35
Burgundaviahmm, need to cleanup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto08:35
Burgundaviathis has drastically changed for the last few releases08:35
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apokryphosit does; I've seen two people in #ubuntu so far today comment about it08:44
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Burgundaviaapokryphos: sorry, was that in relation to my comment?08:49
apokryphosyes08:49
Burgundaviaah08:50
Burgundaviawe need to clearly segment that page08:50
Burgundaviahmm, I have thrown out all my hoary cds08:50
apokryphosThe Kubuntu section there seems to be still valid; should perhaps add a mention that it is the same for dapper. I can do that soon-ish, I guess08:51
apokryphoswould be handy to have manual editing sources.list instructions, too; may add that in08:52
apokryphosBurgundavia: why did you want the hoary CD? Default sources.list?08:53
Burgundaviaapokryphos: no, I found a copy08:54
apokryphosp.u.c should be good if you did want one08:54
BurgundaviaI have going to install a default copy of hoary and breezy on my laptop to have for documentation purposes08:55
Burgundaviathankfully hoary ends security support in Oct08:55
Burgundaviajsgotangco, robitaille: what do you guys think of creating a category for pages which only apply to hoary and can die after security support ends?08:56
jsgotangcois it really different?08:57
Burgundaviasorry, don't follow08:57
jsgotangcothe difference between docs that apply to hoary and breezy08:57
Burgundaviayes, there are a far number08:58
Burgundaviamostly hardware support stuff08:58
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robitailleBurgundavia:  I think it is a good idea09:02
Burgundaviawhat should I call it?09:02
BurgundaviaCategoryHoaryOnly looks good but is bad09:02
BurgundaviaCategory504Only ?09:02
robitaille CategoryHoary09:03
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Burgundaviarobitaille: ok, going to raise it on ubuntu-doc09:08
mdkemorning09:23
Burgundaviamorning mdke09:24
Burgundaviamdke: thoughts on my email?09:24
mdkei haven't read it yet09:25
Burgundaviaok, no worries09:25
mdkeok, now I have09:26
mdkesounds like a plan, the only thing I'd say is that potentially nuking pages which apply to Hoary might mean it would take longer to create an updated page09:26
mdkebut for pages where an updated page is not going to be helpful, then nuking them is definitely good when it gets to EOL09:27
BurgundaviaI guess I should have been clear on that09:27
BurgundaviaI meant pages that only apply to Hoary and to no other release09:27
Burgundavianot pages that need to be updated09:27
BurgundaviaIE: how to get X piece of hardware, mostly09:27
jsgotangcoahh so the lulu store got slashdotted09:29
mdkeBurgundavia: yeah, fine.09:29
Burgundaviamdke: can you reply there and tomorrow I will play with the writing a policy on it?09:30
mdkesure09:30
Burgundavianight all09:36
jendahey, how do I change a wikipage's name?09:54
jendanvm09:57
Madpilotjenda, be cautious changing wikipage names - it breaks all links to them09:58
robmaybe use a redirect instead09:58
jendaIt's a page I just created.09:59
jendaAnd I simply put "moved to JakVypalitIso" instead of the old one.09:59
Madpilotif it's brand new, then that's fine09:59
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Matthewvhi all.. d'you maintain the starter guide at help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/ ??10:17
Madpilotwe did, it's been depreciated for Dapper, though10:18
Matthewvk.. so a ubotu factoid that points there should be removed? especially if it gives a 404 error?10:18
Madpilotyes10:19
Madpilotfind the info in the new Ubuntu Desktop Guide, and link to it10:19
Matthewvk thanks a lot Madpilot 10:19
mdkeMatthewv: the starterguide still exists at http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/, fwiw. So you can distinguish between information for 5.10, and 6.0610:27
Matthewvk, thanks10:27
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exhalerob are you a freenode staff?12:50
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robexhale, yes01:01
robwhats up?01:02
exhalei lost my password01:02
exhale:(01:02
apokryphoshm, broken link on UserDocumentation to the Glossary; is it still around?01:14
mdkeapokryphos: no, nice catch01:15
apokryphosworth creating one on the wiki? Could be handy01:16
mdkei bet there is a good one around somewhere01:16
apokryphosyeah, could use it01:17
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apokryphoswhy is it that anchor tags used with the ContentsPage adopt such curious names? 01:45
apokryphos#head-0d871c9a0181db4293f4f8d6aa34b4b3b20cb21b  ...just isn't very practical01:45
mvirkkilapokryphos: It's an autogenerated hash01:54
apokryphosyes, but why doesn't it generate something more practical? ;-)01:54
apokryphosi.e. for point 1, have...... #101:55
apokryphosanyhow, with regard to a glossary, anyone have a link to the old glossary?01:57
apokryphosMay start on one for the Wiki in a bit01:57
mdkeyou can't find a good technical glossary elsewhere?01:57
apokryphoslooking for the old Ubuntu one01:58
apokryphoscould weave that in to a new one on the wiki, primarily perhaps for new users01:58
apokryphosthough some more technical definitions for some terms won't be discarded 01:58
jsgotangcohey01:58
mdkeapokryphos: as I said, the Ubuntu one isn't there any more. But there is bound to be a very good one elsewhere on the internet02:01
apokryphosok, I presumed someone would have a local copy of all the documentation, but nevermind02:02
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jjesseare ever going to have a  documentation team meeting?02:43
onkarshindejjesse: It is planed on 15th02:53
onkarshindeCheck the calender02:53
onkarshindejjesse: This is calendar url http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical/all/all02:53
jjessegrin they have been planned but haven't happened in a while02:53
jsgotangcoi dunno i could arrange one but since mdke is the most visibile guy out there, i guess he's the one who has a say...03:03
mdkeI'm fine with you arranging it03:04
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mgalvinhi jenda03:09
=== jenda wonders what it was that we were about to talk about before...
mgalvinwe had started talking about the newsletter and how it relates to the marketing team03:10
mgalvinif that what you are referring to03:10
jendayes, prolly ;)03:12
jendaI was thinking the two (newsletter and magazine) have different target audiences.03:12
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jendaThe newsletter's audience covers well with the fridge's, methinks... whereas the mag would be intended mainly for new and enthusiastic users.03:13
shawarmaI just downloaded the Ubuntu Server Guide from Lulu.com.. All the pages are blank apart from the line in the heading and a few symbols (list bullets and stuff). am i the only one seeing this?03:13
mdkeshawarma: no, they don't work with evince03:14
shawarmamdke: doh.. :-)03:14
mgalvinthey do, but at time (probably fairly often) stuff in the newsletter will likely be useful for the mag03:14
mdkejenda: it's easy to define different target audiences for stuff. I think a cool approach would be to ensure that the single project can target both audiences03:14
shawarmamdke: Any non-poppler based pdf viewer in ubuntu?03:14
mdkeshawarma: acroread and kpdf work. You can also download pdfs that do work with evince from help.ubuntu.com, if you're interested in the material rather than the presentation03:15
jendamgalvin, mdke, both agreed...03:15
jendaso why did the newsletter arise out of nowhere, I'm thinking... shall we merge the projects?03:15
=== mdke votes "yes"
jenda(shall we attempt to?)03:16
=== jenda does too
mgalvinit arose from a request from mdz and sabdfl03:16
mgalvinand JaneW03:16
jendaOK03:16
mgalvinso it started :)03:16
mgalvinkubuntu, edubuntu and desktop newsletters where around a bit and it seemed more logical to combine those efforts03:17
jendaYou know what? I think you should write something like a mission statement - I'll get the mag people to do the same - and then we can think much more clearly about what we can do to make the two one.03:17
mgalvinthat would be good03:17
shawarmamdke: Well, I was actually interested in seein exactly what the printed version looks like.03:17
shawarmamdke: I'll try with kpdf.03:17
mdkeshawarma: the former then03:17
shawarmaWho made the PDF's for lulu.com ? and more importantly: how?03:18
jjessemdke made them03:19
mdkeme, and with apache fop03:19
shawarmamdke: How are the ones on docs.ubuntu.com made?03:19
shawarmaer... help.ubuntu.com, obviously.03:20
mdke(help.ubuntu.com) the same way03:20
shawarmaWhy do they work, then?03:20
mdkethere are very few differences03:20
mdkeone of the differences is that the lulu ones use embedded fonts03:20
mdkethat seems to bother poppler/cairo03:20
shawarmaI see.03:20
jsgotangcoit just didn't come from "nowhere"03:22
mgalvinjenda: we kindda do already have a mission statement...03:27
mgalvin"Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter - Reporting all of this weeks Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu action.03:27
mgalvin"03:27
jsgotangcodo you really need a subtitle?03:27
jendaThere are many types of news, mgalvin. I was interested if we could compare what teh two prints would address and to whom.03:28
jsgotangcomagazine vs. newsletter? lots03:28
jsgotangcoa newsletter is supposed to be read in 10 minutes03:28
jsgotangcoa magazine more03:28
jendaOK03:28
mdkedude, we're trying to merge the projects, not drive them apart03:29
jendaso you are against the merger, jsgotangco?03:29
mdkelets try and see common ground here03:29
jendaWell...03:29
jsgotangcoim not going to read an email newsletter for 30 minutes03:29
jendaI had the feeling the newsletter is here for us to keep up with the increasing amount of ubuntu community traffic in a weekly newsletter...03:29
mdkehow do you know the marketing team's plans for the magazine involve something more than that?03:30
jsgotangcome? no idea but a magazine is a composition of essays and newsbits03:30
jendawhereas the ubuntu mag was here to address the new users - the wide community, the type that reads the forums.03:31
mdkea magazine in general yeah, but the point is to go beyond names and find out what the projects actually have in common03:31
mdkeI can't see the resources that the community has right no supporting two separate initiatives successfully03:31
jendaTell them about what's new and snapping - what the new games that are playable under linux are, that there is an Ubuntu democrakey (when/if that is true)03:31
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jendaIs the newsletter meant to be email-only?03:32
mdkejenda: that sounds exactly like some of the ideas that have been put forward for the newsletter03:32
jendaOK03:32
jsgotangcowell the newsletter is primarily sent via email but also available in the wiki03:32
jsgotangcolots of news sites snag our announce-emails, lwn for instance03:33
jendaOK03:33
jendaThe Mag was meant to be html and printable-pdf03:33
mdkedon't get hung up on the format. you can do what you like with open source material03:34
jsgotangcohonestly if you ask my opinion, if you're going through a route similiar to freesoftware magazine or Tux magazine, a monthly format can be quite hairy...03:35
jsgotangcothose  2 magazines do it bi-monthly03:35
mdkejenda: don't you think that if the community is producing a newsletter, the marketing team should be involved?03:38
mdkeit seems to me to be absolutely perfect03:39
jsgotangcoby all means yes!03:39
=== mdke pokes jenda
jendadoes that mean once in two months or twice a month?03:41
jendaThe format is not important, check.03:41
jsgotangcoonce in two months that means 6 issues03:42
jendaof course03:42
jendaIt should be involved -  if the newsletter is a marketing issue, of which i'm not sure.03:42
mdkeweekly is more fun03:42
=== jenda is for weekly, if we can make it.
jsgotangcoyes weekly is fun but it should be concise and readable in a short time03:43
jendaagreed03:43
jendaor - skippable-trough03:43
mgalvinpeople associate a "magazine" with what a traditional "magazine" is, the newsletter is what it is and people already have shown a great deal of interest in seeing it succeed the as what it is, and they like already, given the instability of past newsletter i think, for the community at large, it is in our best interest to stay the course...03:49
jjesse+1 mgalvin03:50
mgalvinthats not to say a mag cannot exist, i just don't think that at the core the two project at that similar in nature (although they can certainly share content)03:50
mgalvins/at/are/03:50
jjesseseems to me that a  maganize would be closer to monthly like tux magazine is03:50
jsgotangcoyes that KDE-lovin piece of !03:51
jsgotangco...literary work!03:51
mgalvinhehe03:51
mgalvinjenda: i do like the idea of a mag, i am just very sceptical about merging the directly03:51
mgalvins/the/them/03:51
=== mgalvin needs to learn how to type :-/
jendaOK...03:52
=== jenda is unsure about the merger now as well...
jendamdke, what's your stance?03:53
mdkejust need to catch up, hang on03:53
mdkemy stance is that the newsletter is on the right road, and the marketing team should get involved and help out03:54
jsgotangcoyeah i mean, i don't mind if marketing take over the newsletter even03:55
mdkeas for a separate magazine, I can't see there being enough resources to do that too, but if you think the marketing team is well organised and efficient, it might be possible. if not, I'd recommend starting by aiming low and helping out on the newsletter03:55
jjessewould intrest in the newsletter drive a monthly magazine?03:55
jsgotangcoif the newsletter gets big enough03:56
jsgotangcobut then03:56
mgalvinpossibly03:56
jsgotangcothe original aim of the newsletters were:03:56
jsgotangco1) development related03:56
jsgotangco2) community involvement related03:56
jsgotangcobecause 03:56
jsgotangcoa) traffic used to provide that03:57
jsgotangcob) ubuntu-news is dead so to speak03:57
mgalvin(example: the magazine isn't going to cover bugs, the newsletter does)03:57
mdkeright, but many of the suggestions (e.g. "feature of the week") are common, I don't see it being difficult to find common ground and work on a single project03:57
jsgotangcoUSNs as well03:57
jsgotangcosure03:57
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jsgotangcoeven if you just add feature or tip of the week03:58
jsgotangcothat's 4 tips in a moth03:58
jsgotangcogood enough03:58
jendasorry back04:09
jendaOk... perhaps it seems as the most sensible solution to develop content together and publish individually?04:11
jsgotangcoi have one question that may irritate you if you dont mind04:18
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jeffschit seems to me that the newsletter and magazine are for different audiences, and therefore should have different content04:25
jeffschthe magazine is for the world at large04:25
jeffschbut the newsletter is more internal04:25
jeffschthe newsletter can have developer jargon, the magazine cannot04:25
jeffschthere would be little or no marketing in the newsletter, but the magazine would have lots of it04:26
mgalvinjeffsch: right04:30
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jjesse+1 jeffsch04:31
jsgotangcohave you watched LOTR how Gandalf beat trolls04:31
mgalvini actually never watch those movies04:32
jsgotangcowow you just missed 10 hours of your life04:32
mgalvin:) well i started watching the first one and fell asleep so i didn't bother to watch the rest04:33
jsgotangcolol04:33
mgalvinmaybe i will try to watch them some day04:33
mdkejeffsch: the point is good, but I don't think the resources are going to be available to run both, i feel that one item should do both jobs04:35
jeffschwe have the resources to run the newsletter, so we can do that04:35
jsgotangcoi can't see the reason to limit them if they can do it04:35
jeffschif marketing has the resources to run a magazine, then they can do that04:35
jsgotangcoyeah04:36
jeffschthey are two different audiences and have two different purposes04:36
jsgotangcohappy to write for them if they could work it out04:36
mdkejeffsch: I think that is a bit stubborn. The content of the newsletter isn't fixed, it's been made abundantly clear that it is open to ideas about what sort of news and features to include04:37
mdkethere is no reason it can't be made fun for both audiences04:38
jsgotangcoi don't see the point of discouraging them to do their own thing04:38
mdkeI'm not, I'm encouraging both groups to be more inclusive04:38
mdkeobviously a magazine would also be for people who already use Ubuntu, so there can only be lots of common ground04:39
mdkethat's what I think anyhows04:39
jsgotangcobut you can't force them if they're not convinced to join04:39
mdkejsgotangco: that's not the problem. the problem is lack of flexibility from both sides about seeing common purposes, as I see it04:39
mdkeanyway, no worries, each will sort it out04:40
jsgotangcoif i can't finish reading an email in 10 or even 15 its not a newsletter at all04:40
mdkeone always structures both newsletters and magaxines so that you can dip into what you are interested in, I don't see time being a problem. And applying a fixed idea to the words "newsletter" and "magazine" is also illusory I think04:42
mgalvini think we are trying to be flexible, i think we all see the common ground you are talking about, i just think they are *different enough* for them to be different projects04:42
mgalvinmag more for users/community, newsletter for management/devs/community04:43
mdkeif you realise that users = community, you see that they overlap04:43
jsgotangcoup to what point?04:44
mdkewell, one is a subset of the other04:44
mgalvinbut not for devs and management, which carries a lot of weight04:44
mdkemgalvin: right, but the audience of one is wholly contained within the audience of the other04:44
jsgotangcolet's not abstract things04:45
mdkeerm04:45
jsgotangcothey're entirely different whatever method we look at it04:45
mdkeactually, if you read what I've just said, you can see that's not true jerome04:45
jsgotangcobut that doesn't mean we're not flexible enough not to accomodate any stuff from them04:45
mdkei see your points, and agree with them, but I feel it's worth trying to get the marketing team on board here, they need to get their teeth into something and it's worth accomodating them on this project, given the ideas that have come into it from mdz and Mark04:45
jsgotangcolike i said04:46
jsgotangcoi dont mind if they take over a newsletter altogether04:46
jsgotangcoit was our initial reaction when JaneW asked for it04:46
jsgotangco(me and mgalvin)04:46
mgalvinand the idea came down from mdz04:47
mdkeyou think he would be against including things for normal users?04:47
jsgotangconot at all04:48
mgalvinnot at all04:48
mgalvintook the words out of my mouth ;)04:48
mdkeok, so habemus common audiences04:48
=== mdke guesses that his superlogic hasn't convinced everyone else :)
jeffschme, i'm just throwing in my two cents. I prolly wont' have time to work on either one04:55
mdkeI didn't mean to throw in any more than two cents04:55
jeffschbut it's important to consider the audience. If you don't, the audience will go away. And with no audience, there's no point04:55
mdkeif I did, I'll blame it on the exchange rates04:55
jeffsch:)04:56
jeffschsometimes if you try to address two different audiences with one publication, then the publication is useless to both04:57
mgalvinhaha :)04:57
mdkeyeah, that can happen, definitely04:57
mgalvinjeffsch: very true04:57
mdkebut if both audiences are already covered in the plans for the NL...04:58
mdkechanging the subject05:00
mdkeshall we remove the PDFs from lulu as downloads?05:00
mdkea lot of people have been complaining they don't open in evince05:00
mdkeand the ones on help.ubuntu.com do, so I think it is better to force people to get them there05:00
mdkealso, the ones on help.u.c are A4 and better in general for on screen reading05:00
jeffschdo the available pdfs on lulu have to be the same file that the book is produced from?05:01
mgalvinmdke: +1 (remove em to avoid confusion)05:01
jeffschcan lulu have one pdf for printing book, and one for downloading?05:01
jeffschif not, then I say remove them05:02
mdkejeffsch: only if I create separate projects for each05:02
mdkewhich I'm not mad about, tbh05:02
jeffschit's pretty embarassing though... a book about ubuntu that you can't read in ubuntu05:03
mdkequite05:03
jeffschhas anyone filed a but about it?05:04
jeffschbug, that is05:04
mdkeyes05:04
mdkebut it's not a bug that will ever been fixed in dapper05:04
jeffschwhat!?!?!? what the heck does LTS mean then?05:05
mdkeit means no bug fixes which require a new api of poppler ;)05:05
jeffschnow that's really embarassing05:05
mgalvinthat sucks (the magnitude of the change that is)05:06
mdkeguess these pdfs are uncommon05:06
mdkeso you guys agree I should pull em?05:06
mgalvinit the embedded fonts causing the issue right?05:06
mgalvinyes05:06
mdkeseems so05:06
mgalvini would pull em05:07
jeffschso it's "we'll support for 3 years, as long as we don't think it's too much work"05:07
mgalvinwhat else is effected by the poppler lib, would it be that significant an impact05:08
mdkejeffsch: they'll have plenty of work backporting firefox security fixes, don't worry05:08
mgalvinprobably not worth worrying about, they will likely not fix it in dapper05:08
mdkebut "support" doesn't mean fix all bugs05:08
mdkepulling the pdfs also has another advantage05:11
mdkewe'll get actual statistics about who is buying them, rather than total numbers which include downloads05:11
mgalvinthats a good stat to know05:13
jsgotangcowell good night folks05:19
mdkenight05:20
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Burgworkhey LaserJock 06:36
BurgworkLaserJock, seems I dodged the "tim marching orders"06:36
LaserJockhm?06:37
Burgworkcheck your email06:37
LaserJockdoing it right now06:37
LaserJockwow, he is an administrator06:39
BurgworkLaserJock, he can give marching orders, he just likes to change them 5 minutes later, or give marching orders to for random jobs to random people06:43
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LaserJockhehe, that sounds about right06:43
LaserJockI'm actually suprised that mvo didn't have more things. I'm pretty pleased06:43
robotgeekhmm, i wonder when is next time 06:47
Burgworkrobotgeek, next time?06:49
robotgeekwas looking thru my scrollbacks, Madpilot had mentioned a script about me and next time06:50
mdkehe means when we add more translations06:51
mdkei think06:51
Burgworkah06:53
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Burgworkok, people in my office were just yelling at each other :(08:15
LaserJockhmm, over work related things?08:16
Burgworkyep, one of my colleagues at my boss08:16
LaserJockyikes08:18
Burgworkhe is an ex-construction worker, so it is scary when he gets mad (never seen it before)08:18
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LaserJocknothing flying yet?08:19
LaserJockI hope08:19
Burgworkno, it is now really really quiet08:19
LaserJockk08:20
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LaserJockguys, do we want any doc specs for Edgy?09:34
LaserJockMonday is the deadline09:35
theCorewould it be useful?09:43
LaserJocknot sure09:43
LaserJockhmm, did apress do an Ubuntu book?09:44
theCoremaybe it would be better to just work on the docs instead of losing time describing them09:44
LaserJockperhaps09:46
LaserJockbut a good discussion about wheither a doc should be done or not, or how to implement it might be nice09:46
BurgworkLaserJock, yes, they did10:20
LaserJockBurgwork: ah, I saw an apress guy was going to Paris10:20
Burgworkthe book is not the beginners book is purports to be10:21
Burgworkthe english one at least10:21
LaserJockmore advanced?10:21
Burgworkyes10:21
Burgworkreverts to cli too much10:21
LaserJockahh10:22
Burgworkand there is a quite quote where he wonders why peolpe are afriad of the cli and how they shouldn10:23
Burgwork't be10:23
LaserJockwell, to some degree that is true, but it isn't the way to win people over10:23
Burgworkno, and that is not what you put in a beginners book10:24
LaserJockcertainly not10:24
LaserJockyou shouldn't say things like "I wonder why people don't ..." because then that just shows you don't know your audience very well, IMO10:25
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jendaAnyone know about a bit of reading on Ubuntu on the Laptop? General stuff... some introduction...10:51
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mdkeLaserJock: anyway you should definitely hook up with that guy and talk with him11:19
LaserJockyeah, that's what I was thinking11:24
LaserJockI'm certainly hoping for some doc discussions at Paris11:24
mdkeI think the main challenge for edgy, from a desktop perspective at least, is whether we are going to cling onto the idea of writing books, or we are happy to move away to a more decentralised help system11:26
LaserJockhmm11:27
mdkethis moin convertion thing should allow us to bring in lots of articles, and it will allow us to write a real help system, if we want to11:27
mdkebut that would probably mean binning the idea of writing books, or alternatively, trying to maintain both11:28
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LaserJockhmm (again)11:28
LaserJockis there anything that should be a spec for Paris?11:30
LaserJockI'm not really sure how doc type specs relate11:30
mdkewe didn't really do any last time11:30
mdkeexcept for BetterWikiDocs, which was done after the conference11:30
mdkecool, we've sold 10 books since I removed the pdfs earlier today11:32
mdkego lulu11:32
mdke2 of which the packaging guide :) nice11:34
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