[12:16] <k31th> Yo guys wats cracking
[12:24] <LaserJock> hi k31th 
[12:47] <theCore> mdke: that is sweet
[12:49] <theCore> with a little bit of work, we could ship the Wiki with Ubuntu
[12:49] <theCore> hmm, maybe not
[12:52] <theCore> at least, it will make Wiki->Docs conversions easier
[12:59] <Burgwork> theCore, because that is not how it is designed
[01:00] <mdke> ctrl L
[01:01] <theCore> mdke: oh, thanks
[01:01] <mvirkkil> There's a nice runthrough of the markup: http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/SyntaxReference
[01:02] <mvirkkil> Converting it shows that the formatter is quite complete.
[01:03] <mvirkkil> Though the macros TableOfContents and ShowSmileys are blacklisted inside the formatter and won't produce any output.
[01:04] <mvirkkil> TableOfContents shouldn't be enabled even if it did work, since the docbookviewers have to be able to generate their own tables of contents..
[01:08] <mdke> mvirkkil: that looks very good yeah. Weren't you going to bed?
[01:09] <LaserJock> yeah, that's what I was going to say
[01:09] <LaserJock> of course the same goes for you Matthew
[01:09] <mdke> mvirkkil: you don't mind me blogging about your project I suppose?
[01:09] <mdke> LaserJock: yeah...
[01:12] <mvirkkil> mdke: I really should have, but I was just so surprised about the entusiasm here.
[01:13] <mvirkkil> mdke: Blog away if you want.
[01:13] <mvirkkil> mdke: Perhaps you could leave a direct link to the wiki out of your post.
[01:14] <mvirkkil> mdke: but it's up to you..
[01:16] <LaserJock> mvirkkil: well we have to deal a lot with the wiki and docbook so it really is pretty exciting for us :-)
[01:18] <mvirkkil> LaserJock: It's always nice when ones work is appreciated :) 
[01:18] <mdke> mvirkkil: I will not post a direct link if you wish
[01:21] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'm not sure why i wouldn't want you to put a direct link.. I dunno. Go ahead and put one if it "comes naturally". 
[01:21] <mvirkkil> I guess i was nervous about it getting hammered.. but I'm sure it can take it..
[01:22] <mdke> mvirkkil: I won't link it, it doesn't matter :)
[01:22] <mdke> gnight
[01:52] <Madpilot> oh dear: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatDoNonGeeksWant
[01:53] <LaserJock> oh I hope I'm around for the discussion of that spec ;-)
[01:53] <Burgwork> we need a pool
[01:54] <Burgwork> a poll, even
[01:54] <LaserJock> I think if we included IE as the default browser that spec would be implemented ;-)
[01:55] <Burgwork> heh, no
[02:02] <kermitX_> WhatDoNonGeeksWant: good documentation.
[02:02] <kermitX_> ;)
[02:03] <kermitX_> that is the single biggest complaint i hear around here about linux in general.
[02:04] <Madpilot> it's a legit complaint, to some extent, but that's a textbook case of a useless spec, in it's current form...
[02:04] <Burgwork> good documentation is merely a crutch for bad implementation, in my view
[02:05] <Madpilot> huh?
[02:05] <kermitX_> ok then.. ;)   the other thing the NonGeeks want is to never have to go to console for anything. they're afraid of the little black window.. heck, if they're scared to go into a DOS window, how are they gonna manage in a linux terminal?
[02:08] <LaserJock> well, I don't really like DOS windows either
[02:43] <theCore> I never used MS-DOS, except for ipconfig, but I wouldn't live without my Terminal on Linux
[02:44] <theCore> did you know that O'reilly is making a book about Ubuntu?
[02:44] <Madpilot> yes
[02:46] <theCore> I don't know if it awsome or not
[03:11] <mgalvin> theCore: which book are you referring to?
[06:53] <Madpilot> OK, that's odd. When I go System->Help->Ubuntu Book Excerpts, it opens in Bluefish
[06:53] <jsgotangco> odd
[06:54] <jsgotangco> you might have defaulted HTML to bluefish
[06:54] <Madpilot> guess so
[07:54] <jsgotangco> gee its quite hot today 32C
[08:05] <jsgotangco> i will die
[08:08] <mvirkkil> Here: http://outside.hut.fi/
[08:12] <jsgotangco> 11C is fab
[08:13] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: :)
[08:34] <Burgundavia> anybody got a hoary or breezy box still?
[08:34] <jsgotangco> well i have one at work
[08:35] <robitaille> I can boot in Breezy in a few minutes (I still have it in a 2nd partition on both my computers)
[08:35] <Burgundavia> hmm, need to cleanup https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
[08:35] <Burgundavia> this has drastically changed for the last few releases
[08:44] <apokryphos> it does; I've seen two people in #ubuntu so far today comment about it
[08:49] <Burgundavia> apokryphos: sorry, was that in relation to my comment?
[08:49] <apokryphos> yes
[08:50] <Burgundavia> ah
[08:50] <Burgundavia> we need to clearly segment that page
[08:50] <Burgundavia> hmm, I have thrown out all my hoary cds
[08:51] <apokryphos> The Kubuntu section there seems to be still valid; should perhaps add a mention that it is the same for dapper. I can do that soon-ish, I guess
[08:52] <apokryphos> would be handy to have manual editing sources.list instructions, too; may add that in
[08:53] <apokryphos> Burgundavia: why did you want the hoary CD? Default sources.list?
[08:54] <Burgundavia> apokryphos: no, I found a copy
[08:54] <apokryphos> p.u.c should be good if you did want one
[08:55] <Burgundavia> I have going to install a default copy of hoary and breezy on my laptop to have for documentation purposes
[08:55] <Burgundavia> thankfully hoary ends security support in Oct
[08:56] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, robitaille: what do you guys think of creating a category for pages which only apply to hoary and can die after security support ends?
[08:57] <jsgotangco> is it really different?
[08:57] <Burgundavia> sorry, don't follow
[08:57] <jsgotangco> the difference between docs that apply to hoary and breezy
[08:58] <Burgundavia> yes, there are a far number
[08:58] <Burgundavia> mostly hardware support stuff
[09:02] <robitaille> Burgundavia:  I think it is a good idea
[09:02] <Burgundavia> what should I call it?
[09:02] <Burgundavia> CategoryHoaryOnly looks good but is bad
[09:02] <Burgundavia> Category504Only ?
[09:03] <robitaille>  CategoryHoary
[09:08] <Burgundavia> robitaille: ok, going to raise it on ubuntu-doc
[09:23] <mdke> morning
[09:24] <Burgundavia> morning mdke
[09:24] <Burgundavia> mdke: thoughts on my email?
[09:25] <mdke> i haven't read it yet
[09:25] <Burgundavia> ok, no worries
[09:26] <mdke> ok, now I have
[09:26] <mdke> sounds like a plan, the only thing I'd say is that potentially nuking pages which apply to Hoary might mean it would take longer to create an updated page
[09:27] <mdke> but for pages where an updated page is not going to be helpful, then nuking them is definitely good when it gets to EOL
[09:27] <Burgundavia> I guess I should have been clear on that
[09:27] <Burgundavia> I meant pages that only apply to Hoary and to no other release
[09:27] <Burgundavia> not pages that need to be updated
[09:27] <Burgundavia> IE: how to get X piece of hardware, mostly
[09:29] <jsgotangco> ahh so the lulu store got slashdotted
[09:29] <mdke> Burgundavia: yeah, fine.
[09:30] <Burgundavia> mdke: can you reply there and tomorrow I will play with the writing a policy on it?
[09:30] <mdke> sure
[09:36] <Burgundavia> night all
[09:54] <jenda> hey, how do I change a wikipage's name?
[09:57] <jenda> nvm
[09:58] <Madpilot> jenda, be cautious changing wikipage names - it breaks all links to them
[09:58] <rob> maybe use a redirect instead
[09:59] <jenda> It's a page I just created.
[09:59] <jenda> And I simply put "moved to JakVypalitIso" instead of the old one.
[09:59] <Madpilot> if it's brand new, then that's fine
[10:17] <Matthewv> hi all.. d'you maintain the starter guide at help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/ ??
[10:18] <Madpilot> we did, it's been depreciated for Dapper, though
[10:18] <Matthewv> k.. so a ubotu factoid that points there should be removed? especially if it gives a 404 error?
[10:19] <Madpilot> yes
[10:19] <Madpilot> find the info in the new Ubuntu Desktop Guide, and link to it
[10:19] <Matthewv> k thanks a lot Madpilot 
[10:27] <mdke> Matthewv: the starterguide still exists at http://help.ubuntu.com/5.10/, fwiw. So you can distinguish between information for 5.10, and 6.06
[10:27] <Matthewv> k, thanks
[12:50] <exhale> rob are you a freenode staff?
[01:01] <rob> exhale, yes
[01:02] <rob> whats up?
[01:02] <exhale> i lost my password
[01:02] <exhale> :(
[01:14] <apokryphos> hm, broken link on UserDocumentation to the Glossary; is it still around?
[01:15] <mdke> apokryphos: no, nice catch
[01:16] <apokryphos> worth creating one on the wiki? Could be handy
[01:16] <mdke> i bet there is a good one around somewhere
[01:17] <apokryphos> yeah, could use it
[01:45] <apokryphos> why is it that anchor tags used with the ContentsPage adopt such curious names? 
[01:45] <apokryphos> #head-0d871c9a0181db4293f4f8d6aa34b4b3b20cb21b  ...just isn't very practical
[01:54] <mvirkkil> apokryphos: It's an autogenerated hash
[01:54] <apokryphos> yes, but why doesn't it generate something more practical? ;-)
[01:55] <apokryphos> i.e. for point 1, have...... #1
[01:57] <apokryphos> anyhow, with regard to a glossary, anyone have a link to the old glossary?
[01:57] <apokryphos> May start on one for the Wiki in a bit
[01:57] <mdke> you can't find a good technical glossary elsewhere?
[01:58] <apokryphos> looking for the old Ubuntu one
[01:58] <apokryphos> could weave that in to a new one on the wiki, primarily perhaps for new users
[01:58] <apokryphos> though some more technical definitions for some terms won't be discarded 
[01:58] <jsgotangco> hey
[02:01] <mdke> apokryphos: as I said, the Ubuntu one isn't there any more. But there is bound to be a very good one elsewhere on the internet
[02:02] <apokryphos> ok, I presumed someone would have a local copy of all the documentation, but nevermind
[02:43] <jjesse> are ever going to have a  documentation team meeting?
[02:53] <onkarshinde> jjesse: It is planed on 15th
[02:53] <onkarshinde> Check the calender
[02:53] <onkarshinde> jjesse: This is calendar url http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical/all/all
[02:53] <jjesse> grin they have been planned but haven't happened in a while
[03:03] <jsgotangco> i dunno i could arrange one but since mdke is the most visibile guy out there, i guess he's the one who has a say...
[03:04] <mdke> I'm fine with you arranging it
[03:09] <mgalvin> hi jenda
[03:10] <mgalvin> we had started talking about the newsletter and how it relates to the marketing team
[03:10] <mgalvin> if that what you are referring to
[03:12] <jenda> yes, prolly ;)
[03:12] <jenda> I was thinking the two (newsletter and magazine) have different target audiences.
[03:13] <jenda> The newsletter's audience covers well with the fridge's, methinks... whereas the mag would be intended mainly for new and enthusiastic users.
[03:13] <shawarma> I just downloaded the Ubuntu Server Guide from Lulu.com.. All the pages are blank apart from the line in the heading and a few symbols (list bullets and stuff). am i the only one seeing this?
[03:14] <mdke> shawarma: no, they don't work with evince
[03:14] <shawarma> mdke: doh.. :-)
[03:14] <mgalvin> they do, but at time (probably fairly often) stuff in the newsletter will likely be useful for the mag
[03:14] <mdke> jenda: it's easy to define different target audiences for stuff. I think a cool approach would be to ensure that the single project can target both audiences
[03:14] <shawarma> mdke: Any non-poppler based pdf viewer in ubuntu?
[03:15] <mdke> shawarma: acroread and kpdf work. You can also download pdfs that do work with evince from help.ubuntu.com, if you're interested in the material rather than the presentation
[03:15] <jenda> mgalvin, mdke, both agreed...
[03:15] <jenda> so why did the newsletter arise out of nowhere, I'm thinking... shall we merge the projects?
[03:16] <jenda> (shall we attempt to?)
[03:16] <mgalvin> it arose from a request from mdz and sabdfl
[03:16] <mgalvin> and JaneW
[03:16] <jenda> OK
[03:16] <mgalvin> so it started :)
[03:17] <mgalvin> kubuntu, edubuntu and desktop newsletters where around a bit and it seemed more logical to combine those efforts
[03:17] <jenda> You know what? I think you should write something like a mission statement - I'll get the mag people to do the same - and then we can think much more clearly about what we can do to make the two one.
[03:17] <mgalvin> that would be good
[03:17] <shawarma> mdke: Well, I was actually interested in seein exactly what the printed version looks like.
[03:17] <shawarma> mdke: I'll try with kpdf.
[03:17] <mdke> shawarma: the former then
[03:18] <shawarma> Who made the PDF's for lulu.com ? and more importantly: how?
[03:19] <jjesse> mdke made them
[03:19] <mdke> me, and with apache fop
[03:19] <shawarma> mdke: How are the ones on docs.ubuntu.com made?
[03:20] <shawarma> er... help.ubuntu.com, obviously.
[03:20] <mdke> (help.ubuntu.com) the same way
[03:20] <shawarma> Why do they work, then?
[03:20] <mdke> there are very few differences
[03:20] <mdke> one of the differences is that the lulu ones use embedded fonts
[03:20] <mdke> that seems to bother poppler/cairo
[03:20] <shawarma> I see.
[03:22] <jsgotangco> it just didn't come from "nowhere"
[03:27] <mgalvin> jenda: we kindda do already have a mission statement...
[03:27] <mgalvin> "Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter - Reporting all of this weeks Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu action.
[03:27] <mgalvin> "
[03:27] <jsgotangco> do you really need a subtitle?
[03:28] <jenda> There are many types of news, mgalvin. I was interested if we could compare what teh two prints would address and to whom.
[03:28] <jsgotangco> magazine vs. newsletter? lots
[03:28] <jsgotangco> a newsletter is supposed to be read in 10 minutes
[03:28] <jsgotangco> a magazine more
[03:28] <jenda> OK
[03:29] <mdke> dude, we're trying to merge the projects, not drive them apart
[03:29] <jenda> so you are against the merger, jsgotangco?
[03:29] <mdke> lets try and see common ground here
[03:29] <jenda> Well...
[03:29] <jsgotangco> im not going to read an email newsletter for 30 minutes
[03:29] <jenda> I had the feeling the newsletter is here for us to keep up with the increasing amount of ubuntu community traffic in a weekly newsletter...
[03:30] <mdke> how do you know the marketing team's plans for the magazine involve something more than that?
[03:30] <jsgotangco> me? no idea but a magazine is a composition of essays and newsbits
[03:31] <jenda> whereas the ubuntu mag was here to address the new users - the wide community, the type that reads the forums.
[03:31] <mdke> a magazine in general yeah, but the point is to go beyond names and find out what the projects actually have in common
[03:31] <mdke> I can't see the resources that the community has right no supporting two separate initiatives successfully
[03:31] <jenda> Tell them about what's new and snapping - what the new games that are playable under linux are, that there is an Ubuntu democrakey (when/if that is true)
[03:32] <jenda> Is the newsletter meant to be email-only?
[03:32] <mdke> jenda: that sounds exactly like some of the ideas that have been put forward for the newsletter
[03:32] <jenda> OK
[03:32] <jsgotangco> well the newsletter is primarily sent via email but also available in the wiki
[03:33] <jsgotangco> lots of news sites snag our announce-emails, lwn for instance
[03:33] <jenda> OK
[03:33] <jenda> The Mag was meant to be html and printable-pdf
[03:34] <mdke> don't get hung up on the format. you can do what you like with open source material
[03:35] <jsgotangco> honestly if you ask my opinion, if you're going through a route similiar to freesoftware magazine or Tux magazine, a monthly format can be quite hairy...
[03:35] <jsgotangco> those  2 magazines do it bi-monthly
[03:38] <mdke> jenda: don't you think that if the community is producing a newsletter, the marketing team should be involved?
[03:39] <mdke> it seems to me to be absolutely perfect
[03:39] <jsgotangco> by all means yes!
[03:41] <jenda> does that mean once in two months or twice a month?
[03:41] <jenda> The format is not important, check.
[03:42] <jsgotangco> once in two months that means 6 issues
[03:42] <jenda> of course
[03:42] <jenda> It should be involved -  if the newsletter is a marketing issue, of which i'm not sure.
[03:42] <mdke> weekly is more fun
[03:43] <jsgotangco> yes weekly is fun but it should be concise and readable in a short time
[03:43] <jenda> agreed
[03:43] <jenda> or - skippable-trough
[03:49] <mgalvin> people associate a "magazine" with what a traditional "magazine" is, the newsletter is what it is and people already have shown a great deal of interest in seeing it succeed the as what it is, and they like already, given the instability of past newsletter i think, for the community at large, it is in our best interest to stay the course...
[03:50] <jjesse> +1 mgalvin
[03:50] <mgalvin> thats not to say a mag cannot exist, i just don't think that at the core the two project at that similar in nature (although they can certainly share content)
[03:50] <mgalvin> s/at/are/
[03:50] <jjesse> seems to me that a  maganize would be closer to monthly like tux magazine is
[03:51] <jsgotangco> yes that KDE-lovin piece of !
[03:51] <jsgotangco> ...literary work!
[03:51] <mgalvin> hehe
[03:51] <mgalvin> jenda: i do like the idea of a mag, i am just very sceptical about merging the directly
[03:51] <mgalvin> s/the/them/
[03:52] <jenda> OK...
[03:53] <jenda> mdke, what's your stance?
[03:53] <mdke> just need to catch up, hang on
[03:54] <mdke> my stance is that the newsletter is on the right road, and the marketing team should get involved and help out
[03:55] <jsgotangco> yeah i mean, i don't mind if marketing take over the newsletter even
[03:55] <mdke> as for a separate magazine, I can't see there being enough resources to do that too, but if you think the marketing team is well organised and efficient, it might be possible. if not, I'd recommend starting by aiming low and helping out on the newsletter
[03:55] <jjesse> would intrest in the newsletter drive a monthly magazine?
[03:56] <jsgotangco> if the newsletter gets big enough
[03:56] <jsgotangco> but then
[03:56] <mgalvin> possibly
[03:56] <jsgotangco> the original aim of the newsletters were:
[03:56] <jsgotangco> 1) development related
[03:56] <jsgotangco> 2) community involvement related
[03:56] <jsgotangco> because 
[03:57] <jsgotangco> a) traffic used to provide that
[03:57] <jsgotangco> b) ubuntu-news is dead so to speak
[03:57] <mgalvin> (example: the magazine isn't going to cover bugs, the newsletter does)
[03:57] <mdke> right, but many of the suggestions (e.g. "feature of the week") are common, I don't see it being difficult to find common ground and work on a single project
[03:57] <jsgotangco> USNs as well
[03:57] <jsgotangco> sure
[03:58] <jsgotangco> even if you just add feature or tip of the week
[03:58] <jsgotangco> that's 4 tips in a moth
[03:58] <jsgotangco> good enough
[04:09] <jenda> sorry back
[04:11] <jenda> Ok... perhaps it seems as the most sensible solution to develop content together and publish individually?
[04:18] <jsgotangco> i have one question that may irritate you if you dont mind
[04:25] <jeffsch> it seems to me that the newsletter and magazine are for different audiences, and therefore should have different content
[04:25] <jeffsch> the magazine is for the world at large
[04:25] <jeffsch> but the newsletter is more internal
[04:25] <jeffsch> the newsletter can have developer jargon, the magazine cannot
[04:26] <jeffsch> there would be little or no marketing in the newsletter, but the magazine would have lots of it
[04:30] <mgalvin> jeffsch: right
[04:31] <jjesse> +1 jeffsch
[04:31] <jsgotangco> have you watched LOTR how Gandalf beat trolls
[04:32] <mgalvin> i actually never watch those movies
[04:32] <jsgotangco> wow you just missed 10 hours of your life
[04:33] <mgalvin> :) well i started watching the first one and fell asleep so i didn't bother to watch the rest
[04:33] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:33] <mgalvin> maybe i will try to watch them some day
[04:35] <mdke> jeffsch: the point is good, but I don't think the resources are going to be available to run both, i feel that one item should do both jobs
[04:35] <jeffsch> we have the resources to run the newsletter, so we can do that
[04:35] <jsgotangco> i can't see the reason to limit them if they can do it
[04:35] <jeffsch> if marketing has the resources to run a magazine, then they can do that
[04:36] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:36] <jeffsch> they are two different audiences and have two different purposes
[04:36] <jsgotangco> happy to write for them if they could work it out
[04:37] <mdke> jeffsch: I think that is a bit stubborn. The content of the newsletter isn't fixed, it's been made abundantly clear that it is open to ideas about what sort of news and features to include
[04:38] <mdke> there is no reason it can't be made fun for both audiences
[04:38] <jsgotangco> i don't see the point of discouraging them to do their own thing
[04:38] <mdke> I'm not, I'm encouraging both groups to be more inclusive
[04:39] <mdke> obviously a magazine would also be for people who already use Ubuntu, so there can only be lots of common ground
[04:39] <mdke> that's what I think anyhows
[04:39] <jsgotangco> but you can't force them if they're not convinced to join
[04:39] <mdke> jsgotangco: that's not the problem. the problem is lack of flexibility from both sides about seeing common purposes, as I see it
[04:40] <mdke> anyway, no worries, each will sort it out
[04:40] <jsgotangco> if i can't finish reading an email in 10 or even 15 its not a newsletter at all
[04:42] <mdke> one always structures both newsletters and magaxines so that you can dip into what you are interested in, I don't see time being a problem. And applying a fixed idea to the words "newsletter" and "magazine" is also illusory I think
[04:42] <mgalvin> i think we are trying to be flexible, i think we all see the common ground you are talking about, i just think they are *different enough* for them to be different projects
[04:43] <mgalvin> mag more for users/community, newsletter for management/devs/community
[04:43] <mdke> if you realise that users = community, you see that they overlap
[04:44] <jsgotangco> up to what point?
[04:44] <mdke> well, one is a subset of the other
[04:44] <mgalvin> but not for devs and management, which carries a lot of weight
[04:44] <mdke> mgalvin: right, but the audience of one is wholly contained within the audience of the other
[04:45] <jsgotangco> let's not abstract things
[04:45] <mdke> erm
[04:45] <jsgotangco> they're entirely different whatever method we look at it
[04:45] <mdke> actually, if you read what I've just said, you can see that's not true jerome
[04:45] <jsgotangco> but that doesn't mean we're not flexible enough not to accomodate any stuff from them
[04:45] <mdke> i see your points, and agree with them, but I feel it's worth trying to get the marketing team on board here, they need to get their teeth into something and it's worth accomodating them on this project, given the ideas that have come into it from mdz and Mark
[04:46] <jsgotangco> like i said
[04:46] <jsgotangco> i dont mind if they take over a newsletter altogether
[04:46] <jsgotangco> it was our initial reaction when JaneW asked for it
[04:46] <jsgotangco> (me and mgalvin)
[04:47] <mgalvin> and the idea came down from mdz
[04:47] <mdke> you think he would be against including things for normal users?
[04:48] <jsgotangco> not at all
[04:48] <mgalvin> not at all
[04:48] <mgalvin> took the words out of my mouth ;)
[04:48] <mdke> ok, so habemus common audiences
[04:55] <jeffsch> me, i'm just throwing in my two cents. I prolly wont' have time to work on either one
[04:55] <mdke> I didn't mean to throw in any more than two cents
[04:55] <jeffsch> but it's important to consider the audience. If you don't, the audience will go away. And with no audience, there's no point
[04:55] <mdke> if I did, I'll blame it on the exchange rates
[04:56] <jeffsch> :)
[04:57] <jeffsch> sometimes if you try to address two different audiences with one publication, then the publication is useless to both
[04:57] <mgalvin> haha :)
[04:57] <mdke> yeah, that can happen, definitely
[04:57] <mgalvin> jeffsch: very true
[04:58] <mdke> but if both audiences are already covered in the plans for the NL...
[05:00] <mdke> changing the subject
[05:00] <mdke> shall we remove the PDFs from lulu as downloads?
[05:00] <mdke> a lot of people have been complaining they don't open in evince
[05:00] <mdke> and the ones on help.ubuntu.com do, so I think it is better to force people to get them there
[05:00] <mdke> also, the ones on help.u.c are A4 and better in general for on screen reading
[05:01] <jeffsch> do the available pdfs on lulu have to be the same file that the book is produced from?
[05:01] <mgalvin> mdke: +1 (remove em to avoid confusion)
[05:01] <jeffsch> can lulu have one pdf for printing book, and one for downloading?
[05:02] <jeffsch> if not, then I say remove them
[05:02] <mdke> jeffsch: only if I create separate projects for each
[05:02] <mdke> which I'm not mad about, tbh
[05:03] <jeffsch> it's pretty embarassing though... a book about ubuntu that you can't read in ubuntu
[05:03] <mdke> quite
[05:04] <jeffsch> has anyone filed a but about it?
[05:04] <jeffsch> bug, that is
[05:04] <mdke> yes
[05:04] <mdke> but it's not a bug that will ever been fixed in dapper
[05:05] <jeffsch> what!?!?!? what the heck does LTS mean then?
[05:05] <mdke> it means no bug fixes which require a new api of poppler ;)
[05:05] <jeffsch> now that's really embarassing
[05:06] <mgalvin> that sucks (the magnitude of the change that is)
[05:06] <mdke> guess these pdfs are uncommon
[05:06] <mdke> so you guys agree I should pull em?
[05:06] <mgalvin> it the embedded fonts causing the issue right?
[05:06] <mgalvin> yes
[05:06] <mdke> seems so
[05:07] <mgalvin> i would pull em
[05:07] <jeffsch> so it's "we'll support for 3 years, as long as we don't think it's too much work"
[05:08] <mgalvin> what else is effected by the poppler lib, would it be that significant an impact
[05:08] <mdke> jeffsch: they'll have plenty of work backporting firefox security fixes, don't worry
[05:08] <mgalvin> probably not worth worrying about, they will likely not fix it in dapper
[05:08] <mdke> but "support" doesn't mean fix all bugs
[05:11] <mdke> pulling the pdfs also has another advantage
[05:11] <mdke> we'll get actual statistics about who is buying them, rather than total numbers which include downloads
[05:13] <mgalvin> thats a good stat to know
[05:19] <jsgotangco> well good night folks
[05:20] <mdke> night
[06:36] <Burgwork> hey LaserJock 
[06:36] <Burgwork> LaserJock, seems I dodged the "tim marching orders"
[06:37] <LaserJock> hm?
[06:37] <Burgwork> check your email
[06:37] <LaserJock> doing it right now
[06:39] <LaserJock> wow, he is an administrator
[06:43] <Burgwork> LaserJock, he can give marching orders, he just likes to change them 5 minutes later, or give marching orders to for random jobs to random people
[06:43] <LaserJock> hehe, that sounds about right
[06:43] <LaserJock> I'm actually suprised that mvo didn't have more things. I'm pretty pleased
[06:47] <robotgeek> hmm, i wonder when is next time 
[06:49] <Burgwork> robotgeek, next time?
[06:50] <robotgeek> was looking thru my scrollbacks, Madpilot had mentioned a script about me and next time
[06:51] <mdke> he means when we add more translations
[06:51] <mdke> i think
[06:53] <Burgwork> ah
[08:15] <Burgwork> ok, people in my office were just yelling at each other :(
[08:16] <LaserJock> hmm, over work related things?
[08:16] <Burgwork> yep, one of my colleagues at my boss
[08:18] <LaserJock> yikes
[08:18] <Burgwork> he is an ex-construction worker, so it is scary when he gets mad (never seen it before)
[08:19] <LaserJock> nothing flying yet?
[08:19] <LaserJock> I hope
[08:19] <Burgwork> no, it is now really really quiet
[08:20] <LaserJock> k
[09:34] <LaserJock> guys, do we want any doc specs for Edgy?
[09:35] <LaserJock> Monday is the deadline
[09:43] <theCore> would it be useful?
[09:43] <LaserJock> not sure
[09:44] <LaserJock> hmm, did apress do an Ubuntu book?
[09:44] <theCore> maybe it would be better to just work on the docs instead of losing time describing them
[09:46] <LaserJock> perhaps
[09:46] <LaserJock> but a good discussion about wheither a doc should be done or not, or how to implement it might be nice
[10:20] <Burgwork> LaserJock, yes, they did
[10:20] <LaserJock> Burgwork: ah, I saw an apress guy was going to Paris
[10:21] <Burgwork> the book is not the beginners book is purports to be
[10:21] <Burgwork> the english one at least
[10:21] <LaserJock> more advanced?
[10:21] <Burgwork> yes
[10:21] <Burgwork> reverts to cli too much
[10:22] <LaserJock> ahh
[10:23] <Burgwork> and there is a quite quote where he wonders why peolpe are afriad of the cli and how they shouldn
[10:23] <Burgwork> 't be
[10:23] <LaserJock> well, to some degree that is true, but it isn't the way to win people over
[10:24] <Burgwork> no, and that is not what you put in a beginners book
[10:24] <LaserJock> certainly not
[10:25] <LaserJock> you shouldn't say things like "I wonder why people don't ..." because then that just shows you don't know your audience very well, IMO
[10:51] <jenda> Anyone know about a bit of reading on Ubuntu on the Laptop? General stuff... some introduction...
[11:19] <mdke> LaserJock: anyway you should definitely hook up with that guy and talk with him
[11:24] <LaserJock> yeah, that's what I was thinking
[11:24] <LaserJock> I'm certainly hoping for some doc discussions at Paris
[11:26] <mdke> I think the main challenge for edgy, from a desktop perspective at least, is whether we are going to cling onto the idea of writing books, or we are happy to move away to a more decentralised help system
[11:27] <LaserJock> hmm
[11:27] <mdke> this moin convertion thing should allow us to bring in lots of articles, and it will allow us to write a real help system, if we want to
[11:28] <mdke> but that would probably mean binning the idea of writing books, or alternatively, trying to maintain both
[11:28] <LaserJock> hmm (again)
[11:30] <LaserJock> is there anything that should be a spec for Paris?
[11:30] <LaserJock> I'm not really sure how doc type specs relate
[11:30] <mdke> we didn't really do any last time
[11:30] <mdke> except for BetterWikiDocs, which was done after the conference
[11:32] <mdke> cool, we've sold 10 books since I removed the pdfs earlier today
[11:32] <mdke> go lulu
[11:34] <mdke> 2 of which the packaging guide :) nice