[12:13] <nixternal> Burgwork: i have to come realise that after today, you don't need to compile custom kernels for ubuntu/kubuntu...they don't do anything else better...plus the repository kernels don't break stuff ;)
[12:15] <LinuxMonkey> lmao
[12:16] <nixternal> also noticed the wiki ati is good for the first time
[12:16] <nixternal> eating and typing...1 sec
[12:16] <Burgwork> nixternal, yep, welcome to Ubuntu
[12:16] <LinuxMonkey> lmao
[12:16] <nixternal> hehe
[12:16] <Burgwork> nixternal, would it shock you to learn I have never compiled a kernel?
[12:17] <Burgwork> I have run linux for 3 years now
[12:17] <mdke> disgraceful
[12:17] <nixternal> there are a lot of people that haven't..and have been using linux for a long time
[12:17] <mdke> not real men
[12:17] <nixternal> i used to be into that whole LFS croud back in the early 90's
[12:17] <LinuxMonkey> would it shock you that I once compiled a kernel when it took a few days to do so
[12:17] <nixternal> haha mdke
[12:17] <nixternal> that was a cruddy machine
[12:18] <mdke> i've never compiled an Ubuntu kernel, I have to say
[12:18] <nixternal> 18 hours was my longest LFS compile...on a 386 in 94 i think
[12:18] <LinuxMonkey> i remember when I used slackware..that was horrid to set up but when u were done it was solid
[12:18] <nixternal> i bet i can pee further than you ;)
[12:18] <nixternal> i bet my dad could beat you up
[12:18] <nixternal> ;)
[12:19] <LinuxMonkey> lol i got candy
[12:19] <nixternal> i got peanut butter everywhere...can't type and eat, but i can drive and drink ;)
[12:20] <nixternal> gotta check the mail....bbiaf
[12:44] <mdke> Burgwork: just realised that we need all the wiki organisation pages included in the move too, we'll need them for the new wiki
[12:45] <LaserJock> mdke: is the wiki license now PD (basically)?
[12:45] <mdke> no, that hasn't gone through the CC yet, as far as I can see
[12:45] <LaserJock> ah
[12:46] <LaserJock> I thought you sent out the mass email
[12:46] <mdke> yeah, that was a "wait and see how people react kinda thing"
[12:46] <LaserJock> oh
[12:46] <mdke> but if you're thinking about forum/wiki compatability of licences, any attribution licence basically screws any chance we have of using the forum material without express permission
[12:47] <mdke> people so many people contribute to wiki articles, we just can't have an attribution licence without listing hundreds of people for most pages
[12:47] <LaserJock> well, if the UDSF is CC-SA then ..
[12:48] <mdke> delete the first "people" from that
[12:49] <LaserJock> so then we can't really grab UDSF material, right?
[12:49] <Burgwork> mdke, the WikiTodo, etc?
[12:49] <mdke> no, we can't
[12:49] <mdke> Burgwork: yeah. I've been tagging em
[12:49] <Burgwork> LaserJock, UDSF used to be PD
[12:50] <LaserJock> wonderful
[12:50] <Burgwork> mdke, can we tag them as something other than CatDoc, to make them easy?
[12:50] <mdke> Burgwork: not for the move, the scripts just looks at doc
[12:50] <Burgwork> ah, ok
[12:51] <mdke> can we kill https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiImprovements ? looks like it is superceded by b-w-d
[12:52] <Burgwork> yep
[12:53] <mdke> we have too many pages with "wiki" in the name :D
[12:54] <LaserJock> how about "HowTo"s
[12:55] <mdke> yeah, too many of them as well
[12:56] <Burgwork> and too many pages with Ubuntu in their name
[12:56] <Burgwork> I plan on killing them right after the move
[12:56] <Burgwork> that will be a perfect time to deal with naming stupidity, as the new wiki will have no google juice
[12:57] <Burgwork> mdke, two things: 1 - moving a page should cause a redirect to be left behind 2 - redirects should be ignored in searching. Can this be done on the help wiki>
[12:57] <Burgwork> ?
[12:59] <mdke> killing pages = bad - urls to the previous wiki will break. But I agree we can be slightly more proactive in resolving naming issues.
[12:59] <mdke> point 1 = not sure we should worry about it, given that moving pages will be limited access
[12:59] <mdke> point 2 = excellent idea, we'll probably need some code
[01:00] <LaserJock> heck, why don't we break everything and let people figure out that we are now at help.ubuntu.com? :-)
[01:00] <LinuxMonkey> lol
[01:00] <LinuxMonkey> when are we moving?
[01:00] <Burgwork> mdke, it doesn't matter who is moving it, it should just work
[01:01] <Burgwork> I need to update the wiki style guide too
[01:02] <mdke> Burgwork: the same amount of time will be wasted killing the redirects that aren't wanted. A checkbox "Create a redirect [] " would work
[01:02] <Burgwork> apt-get and page naming
[01:02] <Burgwork> mdke, there are no redirect that are no wanted
[01:02] <mdke> yeah there are
[01:02] <Burgwork> the only issue I have with redirects is that they are searched by default
[01:02] <mdke> 1. I create a page. 2. I realise it has a stupid name
[01:02] <Burgwork> if they are not, there is no worries
[01:02] <Burgwork> unless the redirect is confusing
[01:03] <Burgwork> everything I am talking about is how it works on Mediawiki, which runs the 10 biggest wikis in the world
[01:03] <LaserJock> is the new wiki moin 1.3? please say no
[01:03] <Burgwork> if it works for them, it is going to work for us
[01:04] <Burgwork> LaserJock, if we are not running 1.5, I am going to cry
[01:04] <mdke> you know full well that it is 1.3
[01:04] <mdke> you've seen it
[01:04] <Burgwork> ugh
[01:05] <mdke> we'll definitely make upgrading a priority
[01:05] <LaserJock> was that just to make the move easier?
[01:05] <Burgwork> LinuxMonkey, thanks
[01:05] <LaserJock> or is it physically the same machine? I don't know how these things go
[01:06] <mdke> LaserJock: no, it's because upgrading to moin 1.5 is a seriously major operation on the Ubuntu servers. And we'll need to write a new theme too
[01:06] <LaserJock> ah
[01:06] <Burgwork> upgrading to 1.5 broke the gnome live wiki theme
[01:06] <mdke> the theme api has changed slightly.
[01:06] <Burgwork> they still have not fixed it, likely because jdub doesn't have time
[01:06] <mdke> not so much, but a bit
[01:08] <mdke> by the way, I thought we could remove a few links from the top that I don't think are vital and might make the wiki look a bit cleaner
[01:08] <Burgwork> mdke, do you have full sysstem access to the machine that help.ubuntu.com runs on?
[01:08] <Burgwork> in other words, if we ask for certain things to be done, are we going to be stuck waiting for a canonical person to do them?
[01:08] <Burgwork> (which is never, basically)
[01:09] <mdke> i have no access
[01:09] <mdke> Henrik has been ferrying things across
[01:09] <Burgwork> hmm, that sucks
[01:09] <Burgwork> henrik is a great guy, but insanely busy
[01:10] <mdke> they obviously just don't trust me
[01:10] <mdke> :)
[01:10] <mdke> I might ask, if it becomes problematic
[01:10] <Burgwork> hopefully
[01:10] <Burgwork> there are lots of little things I want to see addressed, to make navigation and editing easier
[01:11] <Burgwork> I also really loved the look of mhz's slideshow plugin
[01:12] <mdke> so, about removing these links
[01:12] <mdke> I've tried removing the links to HelpContents, RecentChanges and the user's homepage, because I thought these weren't so important for the user
[01:13] <mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki
[01:13] <Burgwork> that works
[01:13] <mdke> and then I moved the rest onto the same line
[01:13] <Burgwork> this for logged in or anons?
[01:13] <mdke> should work for both
[01:13] <Burgwork> please restore the link to RecentChanges for logged in yours
[01:13] <Burgwork> anons shouldn't see any of it
[01:14] <mdke> I will look into if that is possible
[01:14] <Burgwork> FindPage can die for everybody
[01:14] <mdke> hmm
[01:14] <Burgwork> there is already a find bar
[01:14] <mdke> yes
[01:14] <Burgwork> anon: no links
[01:14] <Burgwork> logged in: edit, page history, recent changes
[01:15] <LaserJock> what if we put links to like the top 5 pages?
[01:15] <Burgwork> logged in wiki team: edit, page history, move page, delete page
[01:15] <mdke> Burgwork: I get the idea, I just don't know if it is possible
[01:15] <Burgwork> just epressing it very clearly
[01:15] <Burgwork> I also want to kill the drop down, too confusing
[01:15] <Burgwork> if possible
[01:16] <mdke> presumably all this is possible, we just have to find out how
[01:16] <Burgwork> someone from #moin can give us some love
[01:16] <mdke> yes, i will put it on my todo list
[01:16] <LaserJock> mhz can do some pretty cool things with moin
[01:17] <LaserJock> I'm still very impressed with the gnuplot and latex
[01:17] <LaserJock> warms my nerdy heart all over
[01:17] <Burgwork> lovely, I like the idea of embedded slide shows, ala bbc's pictures
[01:27] <LaserJock> glator sure filed a lot of doc bugs
[01:28] <LaserJock> glatzor I mean
[01:43] <mdke> \o/
[01:43] <LaserJock> what?
[01:43] <LaserJock> oh cool
[01:44] <LaserJock> is that through the theme?
[01:44] <LaserJock> or is that an admin thing?
[01:44] <mdke> yes, in the theme
[01:45] <LaserJock> I'm probably going to start a moin wiki for the Chemistry Grad Student Assoc. here  (I'm the VP for Events and Communications)
[01:45] <LaserJock> I'll have to learn how to admin moin and adjust a theme
[01:46] <mdke> it's not so bad
[01:46] <mdke> you speak python so even easier
[01:46] <LaserJock> yeah, that's sorta why I wanted moin
[01:50] <mdke> LaserJock: some help
[01:51] <mdke> if I have something like this in my python theme:
[01:51] <mdke> if blah blah blah
[01:51] <mdke> else blah blah blah
[01:51] <mdke> and I want "else" to be "do nothing"
[01:51] <mdke> how do I do that?
[01:52] <LaserJock> so you want it to get out of the loop?
[01:52] <mdke> yeah
[01:52] <mdke> i assume
[01:52] <LaserJock> try "pass"
[01:53] <mdke> else:
[01:53] <mdke>     pass
[01:53] <mdke> ?
[01:53] <LaserJock> yeah
[01:54] <mdke> perfect
[01:54] <mdke> thanks
[01:54] <mdke> Burgwork: would you like the hotel moved a little to the left?
[01:54] <LaserJock> heh, no thank the Python Essential Reference ;-)
[01:54] <Burgwork> mdke, say again?
[01:55] <mdke> Burgwork: nothing, a Fawlty Towers joke
[01:56] <mdke> Burgwork: I've got the disappearing links thing sorted
[01:56] <Burgwork> mdke, ah, ok. Not a fawlty towers fan
[01:57] <mdke> if logged in, you get the edit bar with a link to the Home, to RecentChanges and to UserPreferences, if not logged in, you get a "Login to edit" link, and a link to the Home and to RecentChanges
[01:57] <mdke> Burgwork: how does that grab you? Or would you rather get rid of the RC link too?
[01:58] <Burgwork> that works, but I would nuke the RC link
[01:58] <Burgwork> is really only needed for people who are editing
[01:58] <mdke> that makes sense, ok
[01:58] <Burgwork> can you get rid of hte dropdown thingy?
[01:58] <Burgwork> page history is nice, however
[01:58] <Burgwork> oh, and can you add a "discussion" link?
[01:58] <Burgwork> and yes, the motel a little to the left please
[01:59] <mdke> get rid of the dropdown thingy for logged in users?
[01:59] <Burgwork> no, for non-logged in ones
[01:59] <mdke> I've nuked all of the left hand links for non-logged ones, just "Login to edit" appears
[01:59] <Burgwork> cool
[01:59] <mdke> I'll upload it to h.u.c/w :)
[02:01] <mdke> done
[02:01] <mdke> argh, the bastard doesn't work
[02:03] <Burgwork> anyway, home I go
[02:04] <mdke> ah, wiki config is screwy
[02:23] <visik7> where can I find doc about restricted modules ?
[02:23] <visik7> the new volatile tree inside kernel modules
[02:24] <LaserJock> hmm, not sure
[02:25] <visik7> and there are some thing that I can't understood
[02:26] <visik7> e.g. there are 2 drivers for atheros cards inside the modules madwifi and madwifi-ng but madwifi is always selected how can I tell ubuntu to use madwifi-ng ? all this things are undocumented
[02:27] <visik7> nevermind time to sleep I'll put up a blacklist
[03:06] <nixternal> this laptop has been compiling modules in breezy for 2 hours now...this orinoco thing is nuts
[03:06] <nixternal> it just works with dapper..that is great ;)
[03:10] <nickrud> anyone have time to talk about the restricted formats page? Like, breaking it up and getting a common look?
[03:10] <Madpilot> Death to RestrictedFormats!
[03:11] <nickrud> all hail Java, Flash, Shockave, and WatchingYourDamnedMovies
[03:11] <linuxmonkey> Madpilot: nah man too many people use that page
[03:12] <Madpilot> yeah, it has to exist as a directory, if nothing else
[03:12] <LaserJock> I'm with Madpilot 
[03:12] <nickrud> likewise
[03:15] <nickrud> I'd just go break it up myself, but this something the doc team should determine. 
[03:41] <nixternal> hey Burgundavia
[03:41] <Burgundavia> hey nixternal
[03:42] <nixternal> this lappy has been compiling modules for more then 2 hours now...just to patch the orinoco drivers...jeesh
[03:42] <nixternal> i will admit, Ubuntu layout seems solid...even in Breezy
[03:42] <nixternal> i may dual boot this lappy with Kubuntu and Ubuntu maybe
[03:43] <linuxmonkey> hey Burgundavia
[03:43] <Burgundavia> hye linuxmonkey
[03:43] <linuxmonkey> well i cleaned up 1 of the wiki pages today
[03:44] <linuxmonkey> took me awhile to get it just right but i got it :)
[03:44] <Burgundavia> yes, it does take a while
[03:45] <linuxmonkey> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAddingRepositoriesHowto 
[03:46] <Madpilot> anyone here still (or also) running Breezy?
[03:47] <linuxmonkey> not i
[03:47] <linuxmonkey> should of asked yesterday i had breezy installed on a server
[03:47] <Madpilot> gah - from the wiki's DMA page: "My new 200G SATA drive does not support DMA at all."... erm, because it's a SATA drive, and it's not supposed to... delete key to the rescue... :)
[03:48] <Madpilot> nah, had a question about Breezy's gnome menus, which I think have changed slightly in Dapper
[03:49] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: I have an install
[03:49] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, running currently?
[03:49] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: will be in a sec
[03:49] <Madpilot> cool. thanks.
[03:49] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: what do you want to know?
[03:50] <Madpilot> what's the Desktop background thing called in System->Preferences menu?
[03:50] <Burgundavia> should be the same
[03:51] <Burgundavia> let me confirm
[03:52] <Madpilot> I thought it had changed, but that's just a vague thought
[03:52] <Burgundavia> booting now
[03:54] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep, it is the same
[03:54] <Madpilot> thanks
[03:55] <Madpilot> I updated some of UbuntuEyeCandy to Dapper, then realized I'd deleted the Breezy stuff, some of which is different.
[04:18] <nixternal> @sig@ inserts a signature correct?
[04:18] <Madpilot> yes
[04:18] <Madpilot> it doesn't work in the wiki's Preview mode, though
[04:19] <nixternal> ya i know that...i just brainfarted on the sig portion for a sec
[04:21] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKimset2005Hoary    <- could be deleted...it is the same as (actually older) than https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKismet2005Hoary
[04:22] <nixternal> ^^difference is the spelling of "Kismet"
[04:22] <Madpilot> I'd vote for killing the misspelled one
[04:23] <nixternal> +1 here
[04:28] <Burgundavia> nixternal: redirect it
[04:28] <Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: you got help with the Kubuntu repos page?
[04:28] <nixternal> roger that
[04:49] <Burgundavia> look, the artwork team is creating more wiki pages
[04:49] <Burgundavia> @
[04:49] <Burgundavia> !
[04:50] <Burgundavia> any vmware users here?
[04:50] <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingVMWare?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=vmware&titlesearch=Titles
[04:50] <Burgundavia> for the love of all that is holy, pare that down
[04:51] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, some of the Artwork Team folks seem to approach wiki-page renaming & creation as some sort of competitive sport ;)
[04:51] <Burgundavia> indeed
[04:51] <nixternal> Burgundavia: i use vmware
[04:51] <Burgundavia> nixternal: can you please clean up those pages
[04:51] <Madpilot> some of the pages have been moved four or five times...
[04:52] <Burgundavia> one central page, etc.
[04:52] <nixternal> i can work on them if needed sure...
[04:53] <Burgundavia> why do people think that a first boot wizard is a great thing?
[04:54] <Madpilot> you mean a "Welcome to Ubuntu" guided-tour/animated mascot type thing?
[04:54] <Burgundavia> yep
[04:54] <Burgundavia> I just found yet another page with yet another proposal
[04:56] <nixternal> uh oh..not mine is it?
[04:57] <nixternal> he got quiet...must be mine ;)
[04:58] <Burgundavia> nixternal: FirstBootWizard ?
[04:58] <nixternal> whew..thats not me ;)
[04:59] <Burgundavia> UbuntuWelcomeCentre is another useless spec
[05:00] <nixternal> that is actually similar to one i had previously done though ;)
[05:01] <Burgundavia> please no
[05:01] <Burgundavia> there are two places for it
[05:01] <Burgundavia> yelp and ubiquity
[05:01] <Burgundavia> another bloody app is not needed!
[05:03] <nixternal> hehe
[05:06] <Burgundavia> ok, done making my big sweeping statements for the day
[05:07] <Burgundavia> so far, I have suggested a new direction for my company, told off people making a useless welcome screen, said shipping gcc is useless and lambasted people for creating yet more distro specific system tools
[05:08] <Madpilot> a good day, then? ;)
[05:08] <Burgundavia> yep
[05:08] <Burgundavia> and this is all within the 2 hours of getting home
[05:09] <Burgundavia> now I am going to tackle RestrictedFormats
[05:19] <Burgundavia> ok, Java is now a page dump of every single Java page on the wiki
[05:19] <Madpilot> ick
[05:21] <linuxmonkey> Burgundavia: mostly did it myself with input from the doc comunity
[05:22] <Burgundavia> linuxmonkey: cool, no need for me then?
[05:24] <linuxmonkey> what do you mean by that
[05:24] <Burgundavia> you eamiled the doc team and asked for advice
[05:24] <linuxmonkey> yeah and got some..lol
[05:25] <linuxmonkey> so im all good
[05:25] <Burgundavia> good
[05:28] <nixternal> Burgundavia: do you have a name suggestion you want for the VMware stuff? 
[05:28] <Burgundavia> VMware works great for me
[05:28] <nixternal> VMware is taken already, but that info could be compiled into the rest though
[05:29] <nixternal> ^^is that alright with you?
[05:29] <nixternal> just use that VMware page, and bring everything into it
[05:29] <Burgundavia> yes, redirect as needed
[05:29] <nixternal> ok..will do
[05:29] <nixternal> redirect all the other vmware pages to the main one
[05:29] <nixternal> once the main one is complete though
[05:32] <Burgundavia> might it just be saner to recommend people just download the jre deb from dapper?
[05:36] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VMware
[05:36] <nixternal> that is the future home..VMware was open
[05:36] <Burgundavia> cool
[05:36] <nixternal> i have 16 tabs of vmware open in firefox
[05:36] <Burgundavia> indeed
[05:36] <nixternal> if firefox could cuss..i bet it would right now
[05:36] <nixternal> lol
[05:37] <nickrud> Burgundavia, absolutely. It's not free, but it's the wiki
[05:38] <nickrud> Burgundavia, you certainly do have balls :)
[05:38] <Burgundavia> nickrud: the Java stuff?
[05:39] <nickrud> sure, java should be easy, and the easiest way should be documented first.
[05:40] <Burgundavia> I am thinking the easiest way is to pull down the java stuff from dapper multiverse
[05:41] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: are you talking about Breezy?
[05:41] <Burgundavia> or Hoary
[05:41] <Burgundavia> I am testing that now, with Breezy
[05:42] <Burgundavia> maybe we should consider pushing it into hoary and breezy -updates
[05:42] <nickrud> dapper sun, and earlier blackdown. And the java-package stuff, maybe that should be hidden somewhere.
[05:43] <Burgundavia> just going to kill it
[05:43] <Burgundavia> I see no sane reason why anyone would want it
[05:43] <nickrud> iava-package is still broken
[05:43] <nickrud> erm, java-packate
[05:43] <Burgundavia> package, you mean?
[05:45] <LaserJock> want what?
[05:45] <Burgundavia> to create java .deb with java-package over the predone stuff
[05:46] <Burgundavia> ok, sun java fails to run on breezy, dammit
[05:46] <Burgundavia> what does exit status 10 mean?
[05:46] <nickrud> broken on amd64 and ppc fundamentally, according to the bug reports. Just do the repos, and be done with it. It's the best available from what I've seen
[05:47] <Burgundavia> but what about people who want sunjava on breezy and any java on hoary?
[05:48] <nickrud> Carry the old stuff over to a transitional page, and try to hook java knowlegeable people to vet it.
[05:48] <Burgundavia> Exit status 10 means you didn't accept the license (see
[05:48] <Burgundavia> /var/lib/dpkg/info/j2re1.4.preinst).
[05:48] <LaserJock> yikes, I've seen that before :-)
[05:48] <Burgundavia> does dpkg use debconf?
[05:49] <nickrud> if the package used debconf
[05:49] <Burgundavia> nixternal: you still have that breezy install going
[05:49] <Burgundavia> ?
[05:49] <nixternal> yes
[05:50] <Burgundavia> can you try and install Java?
[05:50] <nixternal> will do
[05:50] <nixternal> i had to reinstall..hard drive died after power outtage today
[05:50] <Burgundavia> oh, wait
[05:50] <Burgundavia> never mind
[05:50] <nixternal> lol
[05:50] <nixternal> don't do it then?
[05:50] <Burgundavia> no, don't
[05:50] <Burgundavia> you need to do the jre first, to accept the license
[05:51] <nixternal> you talking about a repository install?
[05:51] <Burgundavia> no, dpkg
[05:51] <nixternal> ahh
[05:51] <nixternal> via wiki howto or forum howto?
[05:51] <Burgundavia> wiki howto
[05:51] <Burgundavia> rewritting Java
[05:51] <nixternal> ahh
[05:52] <nixternal> i always use the how-to int he forum...there is one that is super easy to follow and do...in like 5 lines java is installed and set as firefox plugins
[05:52] <Burgundavia> what does it do and it is sane?
[05:52] <nixternal> it installs java/jre 1.05whatever the new one is from java...very sane
[05:53] <nixternal> let me find it
[05:53] <Burgundavia> perfect, that works
[05:53] <nixternal> it is always a paint to fine
[05:54] <nixternal> s/paint/pain
[05:54] <nickrud> (<Tab> means press the Tab Key) In the directory where you downloaded the sun jre, type sudo aptitude install java-package && fakeroot make-jpkg jre<Tab> . When that's done, type sudo dpkg -i sun<Tab> 
[05:55] <nickrud> can be done in two lines, actually
[05:55] <nixternal> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=148075
[05:55] <Madpilot> nickrud, it's easier than that in Dapper
[05:55] <nixternal> that one is painless
[05:56] <nickrud> Madpilot, very true
[05:56] <nickrud> That is what should be in restricted formats / java
[05:56] <Burgundavia> there is already a pre-packaged version
[05:56] <Burgundavia> I am going to tell them how to install and download that
[05:57] <nixternal> the reason i use that one there i listed is because i don't use the preinstalled Firefox with Kubuntu..i grab it from mozilla and install in an /opt directory where i keep all my little toys
[05:57] <nickrud> Burgundavia, the section between Getting Java and Sun Java from sun, that
[05:57] <nixternal> that way there if i wipe my system...all my toys are still there
[05:58] <nickrud> 's what should be correct and complete. And it might actaully fit on RestrictedFormats :)
[05:58] <Burgundavia> nickrud: it is all moved to Java anyway
[05:59] <nickrud> Burgundavia, that is good. Now, just ditch Shockwave :)
[05:59] <Burgundavia> already done
[05:59] <Burgundavia> take a peak
[06:00] <Burgundavia> peek, even
[06:01] <nickrud> shorter for sure. But Java. You said you concatenated, but damn
[06:01] <Burgundavia> I am rewriting now
[06:01] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: how do I remove the key for the license?
[06:02] <LaserJock> DM or java?
[06:02] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: ie: how do I get the java package installer to prompt me again?
[06:02] <Madpilot> purge the .deb?
[06:02] <LaserJock> probably
[06:03] <Burgundavia> that did it
[06:04] <LaserJock> you doing the jre?
[06:04] <Burgundavia> yep, figured it out
[06:05] <nickrud> Burgundavia, as a temporary measure, I'd delete everything on your new java page except for what was on restricted. That is just too much info right now.
[06:05] <Burgundavia> how do I get it to reconfigure everything?
[06:05] <Burgundavia> nickrud: don't worry, that is what I am doing
[06:05] <Burgundavia> nickrud: I just need to confirm that my new solution works
[06:05] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: how'd you do it
[06:06] <Burgundavia> It left -jre unconfigured. I need to tell it to rerun the configuration
[06:08] <Burgundavia> there is a command to configure any packages left unconfigured, what is it?
[06:08] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: &
[06:08] <Burgundavia> ^
[06:09] <LaserJock> dpkg --configure ?
[06:09] <LaserJock> I'm not sure
[06:09] <Burgundavia> got it
[06:09] <nickrud> Burgundavia, dpkg --reconfigure -a 
[06:10] <Burgundavia> got it
[06:17] <nixternal> hey..with Ubuntu (im a Kubuntu user), is there an easy way to drop down a menu and get a screenshot?  key sequence?
[06:18] <LaserJock> you hit the print scrn key I think
[06:18] <nixternal> i tried...when i drop down a menu in synaptic..it doesn't do a screenshot
[06:18] <Burgundavia> nixternal: for the menus, you might need to use gimp/krita
[06:19] <nixternal> hrmm..
[06:19] <nixternal> you know what..i have the synaptic install on kubuntu..i will grab the screens from it if needed
[06:19] <nixternal> just for menus
[06:30] <nickrud> Burgundavia, java is looking really better.
[06:30] <Burgundavia> getting there
[06:31] <Madpilot> nixternal, 16 *pages* of VMWare info on our wiki? Insane...
[06:34] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: our wiki is really starting to come together
[06:34] <Madpilot> yeah
[06:35] <Burgundavia> we should have a note on all pages about talking to us about editing the wiki
[06:36] <nickrud> having some kind of control, as in wikipedia is a good notion
[06:37] <nickrud> just, I'm gonna enjoy watching others edit at that level :)
[06:38] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, you talk about Free/Sun/IBM Javas in the opening intro, then talk about Blackdown in the next section without introducing it... 
[06:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep, no worries, fixing that
[06:39] <nickrud> Burgundavia, if I may: don't worry about details tonight. Get the overall structure done, and let others deal with details.
[06:40] <Burgundavia> I will get it at least done for tweaking
[06:40] <nixternal> Madpilot: 16 pages...with 8 referring to the same thing almost
[06:41] <Madpilot> nixternal, fun
[06:41] <nixternal> yes it is hehe
[06:41] <nixternal> im gonna work on that now since breezy has a couple hours of updating to do on the lappy yet
[06:55] <nixternal> Burgundavia: nice blog rant there...thx for that rss feed ;)
[06:56] <Burgundavia> no worries
[06:56] <nixternal> it was a good read
[07:05] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, next you can rant about first-install wizards ;)
[07:10] <nixternal> hey now
[07:10] <nixternal> ;)
[07:11] <nixternal> it figures...just as i start writing up the VMware Workstation howto, i can't dl it from vmware
[07:33] <Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco, robitaille
[07:33] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: oh, I truly intend to
[07:33] <robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
[07:34] <jsgotangco> hi
[07:37] <froud-away> hey jsgotangco 
[07:37] <jsgotangco> froud-away: !
[07:38] <Burgundavia> froud: long time, no see. Great to see you back
[07:38] <froud> Burgundavia: thanks, been hectic
[07:38] <froud> jsgotangco: remember that project I was working on?
[07:38] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[07:38] <froud> were going commercial :-)
[07:38] <froud> http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1022&s=news
[07:39] <jsgotangco> oh yeahh
[07:54] <Madpilot> we need to update doc.u.c - it still talks about "the docs we're working on for release with 6.06..."
[08:05] <nixternal> vmplayer = stupid
[08:05] <jsgotangco> man that moglen keynot is nice...
[08:05] <jsgotangco> s/keynot/keynote
[08:06] <nixternal> froud: freedom toasters looks pretty darn sweet man
[08:07] <froud> nixternal: it's a nice project, now we are in the process of making it possible for anyone to build one
[08:07] <froud> nixternal: it needs breezy
[08:08] <nixternal> that would be good...i would put one in my buddies store front ;)
[08:08] <froud> nixternal: we have v3 in testing and v4 in trunk
[08:08] <nixternal> his store windows have m$ spam all over them...i will put up the Ubuntu logo over all of them, and have a toaster right there as you walk in
[08:08] <nixternal> i like that id
[08:08] <nixternal> idea
[08:09] <nixternal> i believe as a marketing tool, that it could also provide useful in other locations also
[08:09] <froud> nixternal: you are welcome to join the project. It's a small team
[08:09] <nixternal> im not a coder what so ever, so what help i could give would probably be minimal though
[08:09] <froud> nixternal: in V4 we now have the ability to upload music under creatiive commons
[08:10] <nixternal> creative commons is helping out a lot in the free world
[08:10] <nixternal> that is good stuff
[08:10] <froud> nixternal: I need help with the docs http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=Build
[08:10] <froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=documentation
[08:10] <froud> We also have translation in Rosetta
[08:11] <froud> Our bugs are in Malone
[08:11] <froud> Yes CC is a nice license
[08:11] <nixternal> im looking over teh documentation now...
[08:12] <froud> nixternal: we just made some changes that need testing, we need to update them alittle
[08:13] <froud> We should have a through the web editing solution soon, based on Joomla + docbook::collab
[08:13] <froud> that will make editing the docbook faster and easier for most users
[08:13] <jsgotangco> topic?
[08:14] <Burgundavia> froud: have you seen the moin2docbook thingy that is being worked on as part of SoC?
[08:14] <froud> Show me :-) there are a few
[08:14] <Burgundavia> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2006/MikkoVirkkil%C3%A4
[08:17] <nixternal> i really like the idea behind that..i remember there used to be kiosks years back here in the US, where you could buy quick versions of a lot of software, but it wasn't cheap. that is why those failed...but there isn't anything for linux really unless you goto a specialty computer store
[08:17] <froud> Burgundavia: yes I seen this one of the ppl at #docbook is working on it
[08:17] <froud> Burgundavia: see http://www.joomladirectory.co.uk/news/joomla-component-news/docbook:collab-1.0.1.html
[08:18] <Burgundavia> hmm, interesting
[08:18] <froud> demo http://virtuemart.net/index.php?option=com_docbookcollab&Itemid=105
[08:18] <Burgundavia> we are about to be blessed with choise
[08:18] <froud> Burgundavia: my problem with the wiki is that transformations are not really backend
[08:18] <froud> you need to generate docbook
[08:19] <Burgundavia> if you generate docbook on the fly, it is not an issue
[08:19] <Burgundavia> then lock the page
[08:19] <froud> I like the approach of through the web db editing and storage on SVN working copy repo with automatic building inside a content management system
[08:20] <froud> The process of development and production are nicely seperated 
[08:21] <froud> BUt at the momenent docbook collab uses BFE
[08:21] <froud> So it can support ll docbook
[08:21] <froud> but only edit sdocbook
[08:21] <froud> :-(
[08:22] <froud> However, the system can support xinclude, entities, ato index, auto glossary, olink xrefs
[08:22] <froud> and localization is perfromed using std gentext of db xsl
[08:22] <froud> the system con therefore be compatible with l18n
[08:22] <froud> s/con/can
[08:23] <froud> The downside for ppl who dont like java is that we use Apache FOP which means we use Sun Java
[08:24] <Burgundavia> ick
[08:24] <froud> However, as things evolve we have a total level of indirection switch between xml toolchain components
[08:25] <froud> The added benefit is that the new Saxon8 with RelaxNG support
[08:25] <froud> We also have a project to do docbook2PDF
[08:25] <froud> and there is alsread a docbook2worddddddml
[08:26] <froud> As a result the system will output vitually all the major formats
[08:26] <jenda> anyone know their way around drupal?
[08:26] <froud> jenda: some
[08:26] <jenda> froud: please have a look at: http://www.ubuntu.cz
[08:27] <jenda> How can I change the link and text of one of the tabs at the top?
[08:27] <froud> Ah yes that one caught me too
[08:27] <froud> just a sec I must login to our system and check 
[08:29] <froud> jenda: r you logged in as admin
[08:29] <jenda> froud: I'm not exatly sure how it is with raghts there.
[08:29] <jenda> *rights
[08:30] <jenda> I'm logged in and can change the content.
[08:30] <jenda> I'm not the #1 admin there. (#4 more like)
[08:30] <froud> jenda: you need rights to administer blocks and templates etc
[08:30] <jenda> well let's try :)
[08:30] <froud> jenda: if != #1 then you need admin
[08:31] <jenda> Hm. OK you sure? I have access to content-types, for example.
[08:32] <jenda> froud: And where would the setting be, if it were?
[08:32] <froud> Hold it was tricky and I must find it, it was not intuitive
[08:33] <jenda> Indeed :) have been looking for it...
[08:34] <jenda> froud: think I found it, and indeed, will have to wait for the admin. :)
[08:37] <jenda> and froud, in order to add to the 'what's new' section, do I need admin as well?
[08:42] <froud> jenda: Ah ha
[08:43] <froud> I have it
[08:43] <froud> finally
[08:43] <froud> %$#@! Drupal is hairy
[08:43] <froud> jenda: can you get to themes
[08:43] <froud> If yes the, you will have two tabs
[08:43] <froud> click the configure tab
[08:43] <froud> DO NOT SELECT FROM THE THEMES BELOW
[08:44] <froud> (that's the catch)
[08:44] <froud> You will find the text box Primary Links
[08:44] <jenda> OK
[08:44] <froud> Edit the HTML there and you will be able to control the top right links
[08:44] <froud> jenda: stupid system is it not?
[08:45] <jenda> hehe, I actually quite like it :)
[08:45] <jenda> But I can't get there.
[08:46] <jenda> Will wait then ;)
[08:46] <froud> no I mean how to edit the primary links, in general drupal is hairy, but kewl
[08:47] <froud> Oneday I replace our home page by mistake
[08:47] <froud> I was just learning, it took me like 20 minutes to revert the change :-)
[08:48] <jenda> Haha :) nice one. Perhaps it's a good thing I'm not admin, then :)
[08:48] <jenda> Which one are you in charge of?
[08:48] <froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org
[08:48] <jenda> ah, the toaster :)
[08:48] <jenda> any of those out yet?
[08:49] <froud> you know it then
[08:49] <jenda> Of course :)
[08:49] <froud> http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=node/14
[08:49] <froud> We have good few out in co.za
[08:49] <jenda> nice ;)
[08:49] <froud> We now give full instruction for anyone to be able to build them
[08:49] <froud> new version is toalllay a breezy
[08:50] <froud> v5 will be dapper
[08:50] <froud> since dapper installs the LAMP which is our base architecture
[08:51] <jenda> I just checked those instructions. Cool :)
[08:52] <froud> We need to do some updates to them
[08:52] <froud> last week had some major changes
[08:52] <froud> we now also have ability to generate installation cd
[08:52] <jsgotangco> this would be really useful for softwarefreedomday
[08:52] <froud> so ifyou have no network connection you can still install
[08:53] <jenda> jsgotangco: check.
[08:53] <froud> jsgotangco: go-open used it for software freedom day and we take them to technology expos
[08:53] <froud> jsgotangco: the toaster normally has a long line of ppl burning
[08:53] <jsgotangco> yes but that's in ZA, i live thousands of miles away from a toaster =)
[08:53] <jenda> froud, there should be a clearer statement of where these toasters are. I for one have no idea where bloemfontain is :)
[08:54] <froud> last expo we burnt over 1500 distros
[08:54] <jenda> You should add a 'country' to each one.
[08:54] <froud> jenda: yes it is a point
[08:54] <jenda> OK
[08:54] <froud> jenda: come on holiday to ZA
[08:54] <froud> I will take you there
[08:54] <jenda> Hehe :)
[08:54] <jenda> Would love to, perhaps in some time.
[08:54] <froud> most toasters are still in ZA we do    have a few in Namibia
[08:54] <jenda> Are they all in ZA?
[08:54] <jenda> OK
[08:55] <froud> We want now for people to build there own and then we can make the category include countries
[08:55] <froud> jenda: FT is now also available in French
[08:55] <jsgotangco> now i'll just need someone to sponsor hardware to be able to create one :/
[08:55] <froud> jenda: more translations coming in Rosetta
[08:56] <jenda> Hmm... what's the budget for a freedom toaster? (by estimate)
[08:56] <froud> We sell them at R22000
[08:56] <froud> 22,000.00 ZAR
[08:56] <froud> South Africa Rand 	= 	3,268.70 USD
[08:56] <froud> United States Dollars
[08:57] <froud> Cheaper models can be engineered
[08:58] <froud> We are modelling a solution based on a laptop
[08:58] <froud> with external drive
[08:58] <jenda> er?
[08:59] <froud> a special mold will be placed over the laptopwith the monitor detached and embedded into the front of the housing. The model is actually shaped like a toaster
[08:59] <jenda> (this one gives an access denied: http://www.freedomtoaster.org/?q=node/55)
[08:59] <jenda> hehe, cool :)
[08:59] <froud> try that link again
[08:59] <jenda> 22000 ZAR = 3 268 USD ?
[09:00] <jenda> OK
[09:00] <jenda> that makes sense.
[09:00] <froud> can you view it now
[09:00] <jenda> nope
[09:00] <froud> hmm
[09:00] <froud> ctrl+r
[09:00] <froud> now
[09:01] <froud> checkou this toaster http://wiki.clug.org.za/wiki/Freedom_Toaster
[09:01] <jenda> yup
[09:02] <froud> this script shows you the current content http://137.158.123.98/public/distros.php
[09:02] <froud> this toaster is a bit ahead of most, but that is more or less the content that is available from all of them
[09:02] <froud> notice Dapper is available
[09:03] <jenda> OK
[09:03] <jenda> I did ;)
[09:03] <jenda> Very cool.
[09:03] <jenda> I'd love to operate one here ;)
[09:04] <froud> Toaster now go commercial http://freedomtoaster.org/medialounge/articles/freedom_toasters_go_commercial.html
[09:04] <froud> Join us and start a business :-)
[09:04] <jenda> wow ;)
[09:04] <jenda> Or you could make a toaster slot machine ;)
[09:05] <jenda> Do the CD drives hold out ok?
[09:05] <jenda> I'd thought the trays get ripped off eventually...
[09:05] <froud> yes they hold
[09:06] <froud> my toaster at Cresta has in excess of 5000 copies burnt
[09:06] <jenda> but no-tray drives are available as well :)
[09:06] <jenda> wow
[09:06] <froud> Top distro is .... SuSE
[09:07] <froud> We want to make wikipedia snap shots available
[09:08] <jenda> eek
[09:08] <jenda> But the toaster runs Ubuntu ;) why Hoary?
[09:08] <jenda> froud: as in a CD-burnt wikipedia?
[09:08] <jenda> MEGA cool
[09:09] <froud> jenda: yes as in CD-burnt toast
[09:09] <froud> jenda original system was hoary
[09:09] <jenda> aww... that is so cool.
[09:10] <froud> new system v3 and v4 are breezy
[09:10] <jenda> Oh, OK, now it's not ;) I stumbled upon something outdated, then ;)
[09:10] <jenda> v5 - Dapper?
[09:10] <froud> v5 will be dapper
[09:10] <jenda> yay
[09:10] <froud> yes at present we have to setup and configure LAMP
[09:10] <Madpilot> Anyone know how to take screenshots w/ Gnome's menus showing? PrntScrn doesn't seem to work after I open System menu...
[09:10] <froud> thx 2 dapper no longer
[09:11] <froud> use ImageMagik
[09:11] <jenda> Madpilot: there's a delayed screenshot tool somwhere...
[09:11] <froud> must go
[09:11] <nixternal> Madpilot: i had that same issue earlier
[09:11] <jenda> later, froud
[09:11] <nixternal> you can do it in Kubuntu with kscreenshot ;)
[09:12] <Madpilot> jenda, via terminal I think you can do delayed screenshots, I think...
[09:14] <jenda> Madpilot: and whatever you can do through the terminal, you can do through a keyboard shortcut as well ;)
[09:14] <jenda> And I gotta go now too.
[09:14] <Madpilot> later
[09:23] <mdke> morning
[09:24] <mdke> that's _far_ too much scrollback
[09:24] <Madpilot> it's been a busy channel ;)
[09:24] <robitaille> jenda,  gimp does delayed screenshot
[09:25] <Madpilot> robitaille, does it?
[09:25] <robitaille> yep...via file---acquired screenshot
[09:25] <Madpilot> cheers
[09:26] <jenda> cool ;)
[09:26] <jsgotangco> :/
[09:29] <mdke> jenda: "sleep 3; gnome-screenshot" works too
[09:30] <jenda> mdke: I wasn't the one asking :)
[09:30] <mdke> oh, my bad
[09:30] <jenda> np, thanks anyway ;)
[09:31] <Madpilot> mdke, thanks, I couldn't remember the delay command
[09:31] <Madpilot> the number is seconds, right?
[09:32] <mdke> yes
[09:34] <Madpilot> "-bash: gnome-screenshot: command not found" - huh?
[10:38] <mdke> Madpilot: yeah, definitely a CategoryWTF ;)
[10:38] <Madpilot> mdke, heh
[10:39] <mdke> that page can go, I'm sure. It is obviously unmaintained
[10:39] <Madpilot> I outright deleted another CategoryWTF just now, but the one I sent to the ML looked like it might make sense to someone
[10:40] <mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/x86_64packages?action=diff&rev2=27&rev1=26
[10:41] <Madpilot> yeah, it's been 10 months since last had a major edit. Delete.
[10:45] <Madpilot> night all
[11:49] <jenda> mdke: ping
[11:50] <runes> pong
[11:50] <runes> sorry just had to it's about 6am here
[11:50] <rob> pong is the standard answer, yes
[11:51] <jenda> Hmm...
[11:51] <runes> well a brief Introsuction: I started using Ubuntu 9 days ago I migrated from windows server 2003
[11:51] <Ubugtu> Ubuntu bug 9 in john "john: Does not build in Sparc" [Normal,Resolved: notwarty]  http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9
[11:51] <jenda> I need mdke to update ubuntu.com/support/local ... or can someone else?
[11:52] <runes> I was suggested by Madpilot that I can contribute by sharing the workaround I foudn in online documentation
[11:53] <runes> I read up on the manual of style and joined the mailing list figured I join the channel to get a good idea of how you publish and what types of content prior to submission
[11:59] <jenda> runes: depends on where... this is the channel for the entire doc team.
[11:59] <runes> wiki
[12:00] <jenda> Ah, in that case... it's rather simple.
[12:00] <runes> Oh ok so the .com and wiki are two separate projects in terms of documentation
[12:00] <jenda> If you have a howto you can write, just put it up in the relevant wiki URL
[12:01] <jenda> err... not sure what you mean.
[12:01] <jenda> wiki.ubuntu.com
[12:01] <jenda> that's the wiki.
[12:01] <jenda> What is this howto about?
[12:01] <runes> got it just wanted to make sure that I was formatting the content according to the guidelines
[12:02] <jenda> I'm not really the authority on that... hmm...
[12:02] <runes> jenda, appending to Madpilots' original documentation on windows users migration to Ubuntu
[12:02] <jenda> wiki guidelines...
[12:02] <jenda> Ah OK
[12:02] <jenda> link?
[12:02] <runes> figured start with the basics before I try to contribute more
[12:02] <runes> sec I have it here
[12:03] <runes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows
[12:04] <runes> was quite a challenge migrating had to remind myself of all the little details often left out
[12:04] <jenda> runes: and what is it that you want to add?
[12:04] <runes> jenda, updte the information to current applications 
[12:05] <jenda> I see.
[12:05] <jenda> In that case, perhaps work with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows
[12:05] <runes> and a cross reference to many of the gnome counterparts
[12:05] <jenda> as it is more complete.
[12:05] <jenda> OK
[12:05] <runes> is there a way to combine both removing redundancy
[12:06] <runes> it would make it easier for new people to have one link with both documents combined
[12:06] <runes> I bookmarked your link to compare the documents
[12:07] <runes> if I do not have the rights to remove one then I wil wait until Madpilot gets online before makign any changes
[12:07] <jenda> runes, combining them is probably being worked on (it says so at the top)
[12:07] <jenda> runes: don't remove anything.
[12:07] <runes> I wouldn't
[12:08] <runes> I'd ask him though what he thinks
[12:08] <jenda> If you are sure there is nothing in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows that isn't in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows , set a redirect
[12:08] <runes> good idea !
[12:08] <jenda> runes: You don't need to ask Madpilot, it's a wiki - if you believe it right, act it ;)
[12:08] <runes> oh ok !
[12:09] <jenda> runes: to redirect, simply type "#redirect SwitchingFromWindows" as the only line in there.
[12:09] <runes> only yafter merging the conten :-)
[12:10] <runes> oops this 6am thing...
[12:10] <jenda> If Madpilot or anyone else in 'power' dislikes your change for any good reason, they can revert the changes.
[12:10] <runes> that works
[12:10] <mdke> jenda: pong
[12:10] <runes> what projects are you all working on
[12:10] <jenda> mdke, i need a line added to: www.ubuntu.com/support/local
[12:11] <mdke> jenda: sure
[12:11] <jenda> mdke: "Jabber konference: Mstnost Ubuntu na conf.netlab.cz"
[12:11] <jenda> (in the esky section)
[12:12] <mdke> done
[12:12] <jenda> perfect. thanks
[01:29] <sten> hi.  I'd like to print out a copy of the Desktop Guide, and put it in a 3-ring binder, or maybe have it spiral bound...but I'm not sure if the margins are big enough for this.  Has anybody tried?  Is there a way to modify the margins of a PDF?
[01:29] <sten> (if the margins aren't big enough)
[01:32] <mvirkkil> sten: Would you mind giving me a link to that pdf?
[01:48] <sten> mvirkkil: http://help.ubuntu.com/pdf/ubuntu/C/desktopguide.pdf
[01:50] <mvirkkil> sten: You can't really change margins in a pdf, I think..
[01:51] <mvirkkil> sten: But instead you can scale the whole thing
[01:55] <sten> mvirkkil: how many cm do you think that that margin is?  (I also can't quite tell if this PDF is A4, or letter page-size)
[01:56] <sten> ah, it's letter
[01:57] <mvirkkil> sten: Huh? I'm pretty sure it's a4
[01:57] <mvirkkil> a4 or legal
[01:57] <mvirkkil> definetly not letter
[01:58] <mvirkkil> It's a4
[01:58] <mvirkkil> At least that's how it shows up in my system.
[02:00] <sten> agreed.  I saw the 8in, and 11in in acroread and though "8in by 11in?  Isn't that letter?", but really should have bothered to convert to cm.
[02:00] <sten> :-$
[02:00] <mvirkkil> sten: Why don't you just print a single page?
[02:01] <mvirkkil> and check if it fits?
[02:03] <sten> well, I suppose I could. ;-)  I thought that I'd try to to figure out what I was going to have to modify if it didn't work. (perhaps I am a pessimist)
[02:04] <mvirkkil> sten: You could check out mpage. It's a command line utility mainly for printing multiple pages on one page, but it can also indent 
[02:04] <mvirkkil> which hopefully means it can change the margin :)
[02:04] <mvirkkil> sten: And you can also specify pagemargins.
[02:05] <sten> letter is 21.59cm x 27.94cm, and A4 is 21cm x 29.7cm, and I live in Canada will will be printing on letter... So do you think that the printer will scale the A4 down, to make the height fit, which will also make the width smaller?  Hmmm.  mpage.  I will definitely check it out.
[02:06] <mvirkkil> sten: I think it will scale, as long as you tell the software that you are printing on a smaller paper.
[02:06] <mvirkkil> sten: I'm actually quite sure it will scale.
[02:07] <mvirkkil> sten: But it will also place it in the middle of the page, while it would be better for it to place it a bit asymmetrically.
[02:10] <sten> cups will use ghostscript to scale A4 to Letter when printing, so it seems like I could use ghostscript (or some kind of ghostscript gui) to pre-scale the A4...  Maybe that's when I can modify the margins?  OTOH, maybe mpage's indent feature will do the trick.
[02:10] <sten> mvirkkil: thanks for the tips
[02:11] <mvirkkil> The gnome print dialog is wonderfully simple. One would just hope it would have some place where you could equally easily define printing methods for stuff like how to print a page on multiple pages
[02:11] <mvirkkil> And multiple pages on one page ::)
[02:13] <sten> mm. :-)  I think that acroread can do multiple pages per page though.  (no luck with margins though, although I can apparently set margins on the printer itself.  Hmm)
[02:18] <mdke> sten: the margins on those pdfs should be 1 inch
[02:19] <mdke> dunno if you can increase them manually on the printer
[02:20] <mdke> sten: but you could always buy one of our printed books, it might be cheaper than printing it yourself
[02:21] <mvirkkil> mdke: I was looking at the documentation. It might be a good idea to split the documents in to smaller chunks, and then just use [[Include(PageName)] ]  
[02:22] <mvirkkil> mdke: on the wiki, that is.
[02:26] <mdke> mvirkkil: which documents did you have in mind?
[02:27] <mvirkkil> mdke: Well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows is extremely long.
[02:28] <mvirkkil> You could have the subsections in SwitchingFromWindows/NameOfSectionOrChapterOne
[02:28] <jjesse> SwitchingFromWindows i'd like in Kubuntu Docs for Edgy
[02:28] <mvirkkil> and then the actual page would be just a bunch of include commands.
[02:28] <mvirkkil> And then you could use some parts of it in other versions.
[02:28] <mdke> mvirkkil: the page itself would still be the same length, right?
[02:29] <mvirkkil> mdke: The resulting page, yes.
[02:29] <mvirkkil> mdke: It would just simplify editing and sharing.
[02:29] <mvirkkil> well, editing might not get that much simplified.
[02:29] <mdke> right, yeah that would be a clever thing to do for documents which share the same things for different derivatives, but which differ in some respects too
[02:29] <mvirkkil> yeah, like ubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu
[02:30] <mvirkkil> they aren't going to burn a cd the same way, but they will have the same chapters about generic security stuff.
[02:30] <jjesse> mvirkkil: agreed
[02:30] <mvirkkil> or "transferring your stuff from windows"
[02:31] <mvirkkil> well, even that might vary.
[02:31] <jjesse> but i still think it would be nice to re work it ito documents that could be included in the next release
[02:31] <jjesse> that way it could be in chapter form and available at doc.ubuntu.com until it moved to help.ubuntu.com
[02:31] <mvirkkil> jjesse: Well, that's where my docbook converter comes in.
[02:31] <mvirkkil> or maybe not..
[02:31] <mvirkkil> I'm not sure what you mean with your second comment
[02:33] <mvirkkil> mdke: The docbook conversion stuff already support the Include macro, though I'm having some trouble there too where the resulting docbook is almost valid, but has empty para tags where it shouldn't.
[02:33] <jjesse> if it is in the published docs, then it would't have to be in wiki form
[02:33] <jjesse> so instead of looking for SwitchingFromWindows/Chapter1/XXXX
[02:33] <jjesse> you could just navigate through doc.ubuntu.com like a "normal" document of ours
[02:34] <mvirkkil> jjesse: True, but when looking at it you wouldn't need to go to  SwitchingFromWindows/Chapter1/XXXX, the whole thing gets aggregated in to one page anyway to one page.
[02:35] <mvirkkil> ...*grumble* horrible sentence *grumble* ...
[02:36] <mvirkkil> The end result in the wiki would be the same as it is now when just browsing, but behind the scenes it would actually consist of several wikipages.
[02:45] <jjesse> hmm anyone been following UbuntuWelcomeCentre?  Apparently its a SoC project.... i think he should be working heavily with the doc team on this but it doesnt look like it
[02:49] <mdke> jjesse: yes
[02:50] <mdke> I have asked the mentor to have a chat with me about it
[02:51] <jjesse> good, you know how i hate to see work duplicated :)  
[02:55] <mdke> yeah :)
[03:02] <mvirkkil> jjesse: Where can I find out more about UbuntuWelcomeCentre? (is that Ubuntu WC for short?)
[03:03] <jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre is all i know
[03:10] <matthewrevell> Hello all
[03:12] <mvirkkil> matthewrevell: hi
[03:12] <mvirkkil> jjesse: Couldn't find it using google. Google landed me on a page that no longer exists :O)
[03:14] <jjesse> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre
[03:15] <matthewrevell> What's the current status of the style guide?
[03:15] <matthewrevell> I've noticed the HTML preview is giving a page not found
[03:17] <melodie> hello, could someone tell where (in Hell!) has gone the hard/laptop section of the documentation ?
[03:18] <mvirkkil> melodie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops
[03:18] <melodie> mvirkkil, thks!  :))
[03:18] <mvirkkil> melodie: oops, wrong address. That's not in hell ;)
[03:19] <melodie> lol
[03:19] <mvirkkil> hmm.. Time from question to answer < 1 minute, and I had no idea where they were moved. I just searched for the page.
[03:22] <mdke> matthewrevell: it hasn't had much work for a bit
[03:22] <melodie> mvirkkil, in Google or whatsoever like that ?
[03:22] <mdke> matthewrevell: the link works though - http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/index.html
[03:23] <melodie> Hello mdke, how d'you do ?
[03:23] <mdke> melodie: fine thanks, you?
[03:23] <matthewrevell> mdke: Cheers. I'll update the Getting Start page to fix the link
[03:23] <melodie> Ok, I go to Ubuntu now,
[03:23] <mdke> matthewrevell: some of the sections need fleshing out and we've been thinking about some more sections too
[03:23] <mvirkkil> melodie: Now, in the wiki.
[03:24] <melodie> mdke : I moved to Archlinux, but try to keep a dual Ubuntu, though the Dapper seems not to like my laptop
[03:24] <mdke> aha
[03:25] <matthewrevell> mdke: I've been meaning to help with the docs for some time. I thought I should probably start by looking at the style guide :)
[03:25] <mdke> matthewrevell: welcome :)
[03:25] <matthewrevell> mdke: Thak you!
[03:25] <mdke> matthewrevell: are you the MR of lug radio fame?
[03:26] <matthewrevell> mdke: I wouldn't call it fame, but yes :)
[03:26] <mdke> infame then
[03:26] <mvirkkil> wow. We have a celebrity right in #ubuntu-doc.
[03:27] <matthewrevell> Yes, infamy :) Ha.
[03:29] <melodie> I noticed the Sitemap page does'nt exist anymore, It used to be practicle... 
[03:31] <mdke> melodie: on which website?
[03:38] <matthewrevell> So, are the mailing list archives the best place to get up to speed?
[03:39] <mdke> matthewrevell: yeah. If you can, talk to jeffsch at some stage about plans for the styleguide, he keeps an eye on that doc
[03:40] <matthewrevell> mdke: Cool, will try to catch him on here.
[03:40] <mdke> nice, thanks
[03:50] <melodie> mdke, here : http://www.ubuntu.com/sitemap
[03:53] <mdke> melodie: ah
[03:55] <melodie> mdke, :)
[03:58] <melodie> salut, et au plaisir... (nice weather--->out!  :D 
[03:58] <melodie> away
[03:59] <jjesse> man i like the kubuntu theme to the wiki so much better then the default theme :)
[04:01] <mdke> for me it is the same theme
[04:01] <mdke> ah, perhaps that is my preferences
[04:02] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:20] <mvirkkil> The "WhatWindowsUsersWant"-statistics are quite out of date..
[04:22] <jsgotangco> that's like a year old i believe
[04:22] <mdke> we need a new page with lists of equivalent documentation, that page isn't really documentation at all
[04:23] <mdke> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/AppHelper has a nice list
[04:24] <mvirkkil> mdke: I suppose a list of equivalents is the important part of the page and not the statistics.
[04:25] <mvirkkil> ?
[04:26] <mdke> mvirkkil: well, that page is basically a marketing discussion, rather than aimed at providing information for users
[04:26] <mdke> we need to make a separate one with a list of equivalent applications
[04:27] <mvirkkil> mdke: what I'm trying to ask, is if there is interest in re-counting the numbers? :)
[04:28] <mdke> not from me, but maybe the author of that page or someone involved in marketing might be
[04:31] <mvirkkil>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportMachinesLaptops & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
[04:31] <mvirkkil> Those two don't seem to link to eachother much...
[04:32] <jsgotangco> it was a result of some marketing study by a guy in AU that presented it during UDU
[04:32] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: Tim something.. I wrote the script to collect the statistics.
[04:34] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: But it was for more or less one time use.
[04:34] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[04:35] <mvirkkil> IIRC his version 1 was done by counting by hand, while version 2 was done using my script.
[05:32] <jsgotangco> uggh this compiler on default thread is dragging alrady
[05:32] <LaserJock> really?
[05:32] <LaserJock> I personally don't see a big deal
[05:33] <LaserJock> as long as it is documented somewhere
[05:35] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:35] <jsgotangco> i mean
[05:35] <jsgotangco> build-essential is already there
[05:35] <LaserJock> yep
[05:35] <jsgotangco> just tell them its there and that's it
[05:35] <LaserJock> yep
[05:35] <jsgotangco> if it gets installed by default, tell it as well
[05:35] <LaserJock> yep
[05:35] <jsgotangco> i dunno i guess it is man's nature to argue
[05:36] <LaserJock> geeks and their toys, shesh ;-)
[05:36] <trappist> well the question is whether to install it by default, and there are good arguments on both sides of that
[05:36] <trappist> he did *ask* for input :)
[05:37] <LaserJock> sure, and I think mdz is doing a great job of getting out there and asking for feedback
[05:37] <LaserJock> I just don't see why it really matters much either way
[05:37] <LaserJock> it's not like gcc is in Universe or something :-)
[05:37] <jsgotangco> i just find the topic is not going to end unless mdz gives a decision (or probably after paris)
[05:39] <LaserJock> IMO, this is why I'd like to have some kind of advanced user guide (not that any of them would read it of course ;-) )
[05:39] <LaserJock> I'm thinking of writing a Python doc spec for Paris
[05:41] <LaserJock> at least sabdfl might appreciate it ;-)
[05:42] <jsgotangco> good night
[05:43] <LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
[06:06] <LaserJock> mdke: is there a wiki wishlist somewhere? maybe just the wiki todo list?
[06:06] <LaserJock> -motu has a doc that they really would like cleaned up
[06:10] <mdke> LaserJock: WikiToDo, yeah
[06:10] <LaserJock> the live cd customization wiki page needs major help
[06:11] <mdke> right, Kamion said he was going to look at it, I'll remind him
[06:11] <LaserJock> tseng says http://www.atworkonline.it/~bibe/ubuntu/custom-livecd.htm is good
[06:18] <mdke> LaserJock: no licence though. Maybe include a link to it if you add the livecd page to WikiToDo and note that it can't be outright copied without the author's permission
[06:18] <LaserJock> yeah, I wondered that too
[06:23] <LaserJock> ack so there is a dapper specific LiveCD wiki page and then a generic one?
[06:24] <mdke> looks like it yes
[06:24] <mdke> so Tollef says that page is fine
[06:25] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:25] <LaserJock> maybe it was the non-dapper one that was the problem
[06:25] <mdke> was it only a problem because it didn't work for dapper, or for some other reason?
[06:26] <LaserJock> well, my  experience was that few people could get it to work
[06:26] <mdke> on hoary/breezy?
[06:26] <LaserJock> dapper
[06:26] <mdke> right, because as it says, it is for hoary/breezy, or am I misunderstanding?
[06:26] <LaserJock> it could be that the dapper page was mad because of that
[06:26] <LaserJock> I'm not sure
[06:27] <LaserJock> all I know is that that was the most frequent non-packaging question I was getting in -motu
[06:27] <LaserJock> and tseng and a couple other guys in -motu said it was also a problem
[06:27] <LaserJock> but maybe it was because people were using the non-dapper version for dapper, not really sure
[06:28] <LaserJock> I wasn't aware that there was 2 versions
[06:29] <mdke> me neither, until just now
[06:31] <LaserJock> well, I have noticed that people don't seem to be complaining about it as much anymore
[06:31] <LaserJock> maybe the problem is solved
[06:31] <LaserJock> except if people don't get to the Dapper one, for whatever reason
[06:31] <mdke> it's a good example of why we need to make it clear about what version pages apply to
[06:32] <LaserJock> yep
[06:42] <LaserJock> is it #REDIRECT ?
[06:54] <nixternal> yes LaserJock
[06:55] <nixternal> #redirect page
[07:50] <nalioth> howdy y'all
[07:50] <LaserJock> hi nalioth 
[07:50] <pygi> hey nalioth 
[07:51] <nalioth> i have a question about that <blanketyblankblankblank> moin page
[07:51] <LaserJock> which one
[07:51] <nalioth> i'm trying to get email@email.net?subject="subject here"   to work right
[07:51] <nalioth> the wiki
[07:52] <Burgwork> nalioth, you want people to be able to email you?
[07:52] <nalioth> Burgwork:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines
[07:53] <nalioth> i want a subject line i can route into a folder in my email
[07:59] <nalioth> nobody around that knows how to tame moinmoin ?
[07:59] <mdke> what have you tried?
[08:00] <nalioth> i've tried user@email.dot?subject="subject here" and it prints it out just like that
[08:00] <nalioth> doesnt hide the ?subject*
[08:01] <nalioth> and i'm (fortunately or not) unfamiliar with how to work moinmoin
[08:02] <mdke> I can't see any way to do it
[08:04] <nalioth> another reason to love moinmoin
[08:04] <mdke> because it doesn't help you filter email?
[08:05] <mdke> uhuh
[08:05] <nalioth> because it doesnt do what standard html does
[08:05] <mdke> you could use the HTML parser, if it were installed, which it isn't
[08:07] <nalioth> ok, thanks guys
[08:07] <mdke> #moin might be able to help better
[08:08] <nalioth> i was going there next, lol
[08:08] <nalioth> i will return and enlighten you as to what i find
[08:08] <mdke> ok
[08:09] <mdke> maybe a newer version of moin supports it
[08:19] <nalioth> mdke: the mailto macro solves it  http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnMacros
[08:19] <nixternal> ok..the remember last page pref is very annoying. because of it, i cannot goto the wiki main page
[08:21] <LaserJock> ack, do we have a wiki page on upgrading from 510 to 6.06
[08:22] <nalioth> i thought we did
[08:24] <Burgwork> release notes?
[08:24] <Burgwork> it is pretty easy
[08:24] <LaserJock> I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperUpgrades
[08:25] <nalioth> that mailto macro for moinmoin is the cats pyjamas
[08:37] <nixternal> lol nalioth...i was just playing with it in the sandbox...do you know if you can hide the subject line though from displaying on the wiki itself?
[08:37] <nalioth> nixternal: i'm not sure, but i'm happy now that my string is all hot-clickable
[08:40] <nixternal> hehe...i hear you...that is nice to use for sure
[08:52] <Burgwork> wow, lets watch the artwork redo their wiki pages one more time1
[08:52] <Burgwork> !
[09:00] <nixternal> lol
[09:01] <nalioth> love those artists
[09:01] <nalioth> ok guys, y'all take it easy
[09:01] <nalioth> thanks for your time
[09:02] <nixternal> nalioth obviously isn't from the south..he said y'all and  not ya'll or yawl
[09:05] <LaserJock> hmm, I find things like that hard to spell
[09:05] <nixternal> lol
[09:06] <Burgwork> LaserJock, tim is getting on my case. Where are we?
[09:06] <LaserJock> like yay as in "wahoo, I'm happy"
[09:06] <LaserJock> Burgwork: umm, I'm waiting for Jason
[09:06] <Burgwork> LaserJock, ok, can you communicate that?
[09:07] <LaserJock> I guess, aren't we ahead of schedule?
[09:07] <LaserJock> I thought I was supposed to get new stuff Monday or Tuesday
[09:07] <Burgwork> no idea. I just got a phone call from tim asking where we are
[09:08] <LaserJock> ok, I'll reply to his email to reassure him we are on schedule, how's that ;-)
[09:08] <Burgwork> sweet, that works for me
[09:09] <LaserJock> lol, I gotta keep you employed here :-)
[10:06] <LaserJock> hehe
[10:06] <LaserJock> hope it helps
[10:06] <mdke> what are you guys working on?
[10:06] <mdke> sounds all secretive!
[10:06] <Burgwork> mdke, all will come clear in due course
[10:06] <LaserJock> super top secret
[10:06] <mdke> is it Ubuntu related?
[10:06] <Burgwork> yes
[10:06] <mdke> ah, damn you and your secrets
[10:07] <mdke> Burgwork: see the WikiGuide page?
[10:07] <mdke> any thoughts?
[10:07] <Burgwork> mdke, on my list of things to look at
[10:08] <mdke> cool