[12:05] <sfllaw> mdke: Hi?
[12:06] <mdke> sfllaw: free for a chat?
[12:06] <sfllaw> mdke: Sue.
[12:06] <sfllaw> Sure.
[12:07] <sfllaw> Eep!
[12:07] <mdke> sorry, reflex
[12:07] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:10] <sbartleylinux> mdke: seems that w/ dapper, the gnome-session lougout changed.  Do you know who/where I should work to see about changes to it?
[12:10] <mdke> sbartleylinux: yeah, lmanul in #ubuntu-desktop
[12:11] <sbartleylinux> thx.
[01:14] <profoXP> going to bed, bye
[01:30] <mdz> mdke: are you a US attorney or something? :-P
[01:30] <mdke> mdz: the next worst type of attorney
[01:30] <mdz> mdke: canadian?
[01:31] <mdke> heh
[01:32] <Burgwork> mdke, worse, he is a bloody limey :)
[01:32] <Burgwork> mdz, ^
[01:33] <infinity> Gar, why do I always forget to set my From when replying to ubuntu-users?
[01:34] <infinity> Does a moderator there feel like whitelisting adconrad@0c3.net, so I don't have to care anymore? :)
[01:34] <mdke> infinity: you could just subscribe?
[01:34] <infinity> mdke: I am subscribed, from adconrad@ubuntu.com.
[01:34] <mdke> subscribe from the other one too?
[01:35] <infinity> mdke: Hence the "why do I always forget to set my From when replying to ubuntu-users"...
[01:35] <infinity> Subscribing from two addresses doesn't seem sane. :)
[01:35] <mdke> yeah, happens to me, I subscribed them both
[01:35] <mdke> well, it doesn't now that I use gmane, but it used to
[01:36] <infinity> I think I need to write something for thunderbird that allows me to set per-folder From preferences.
[01:36] <infinity> That would solve my headaches.
[01:37] <mdke> I just moved to thunderbird myself.. it's nice. But it's weird that when you reply to mail, it doesn't maintain the From: address that received the email
[01:37] <infinity> It keys off the To: address.
[01:37] <infinity> So, if the mail is sent DIRECTLY to you, it picks the right address when replying.
[01:37] <infinity> In all other cases, it doesn't.
[01:37] <mdke> doesn't work for me
[01:38] <infinity> I suppose maybe fixing that to try to guess the envelope-recipient would help, but that's not always visible.
[01:38] <infinity> mdke: Whacky, it works for me.
[01:38] <mdke> I get mail to my @ubuntu address, when I reply it uses the address that that redirects to
[01:38] <Burgwork> infinity, ubuntu-users? I will do it
[01:38] <infinity> mdke: If you send me a mail to adconrad@debian.org, that's where my reply will come from, etc.
[01:38] <mdke> infinity: I'd like that behaviour. Maybe it's in a preference somewhere
[01:38] <infinity> Burgwork: Someone already moderated my posts through... Either that, or I was already whitelisted the last time I screwed up.
[01:39] <Burgwork> infinity, I autowhitelist everybody who is a legit poster and gets caught by the spam filter, so likely it has already been done (only a moderator, not an owner, or I would check)
[01:40] <infinity> mdke: You have all your "identities" registered in Tbird, right?
[01:40] <infinity> mdke: It will only pick them if they're known-valid (ie: registered in the identities widget)
[01:40] <mdke> infinity: identities?
[01:40] <mdke> oh i see
[01:41] <infinity> mdke: Edit -> Account Settings -> Manage Identities (button on the bottom right of the window)
[01:41] <mdke> doh
[01:42] <infinity> mdke: With that populated, you get a drop-down box in the From line on all compose windows (and it will try to auto-guess the correct address to use on replies)
[01:42] <mdke> yep, that's the problem
[01:42] <mdke> thanks dude
[01:47] <infinity> Alright, bootstrap back on course.  Feh.
[01:48] <infinity> The next time the publisher crashes and I try to resurrect bits of the archive by hand, I may consider a career change.
[01:48] <infinity> I think "drooling idiot" would be a lovely job description, for instance.
[01:48] <infinity> I wonder who would pay me to do that.
[01:50] <mdke> no comment
[01:51] <infinity> mdke: If your comment was going to be something like "Doesn't Canonical already pay you to be a drooling idiot?", may I remind you that helping you with your software problem should have bought me at least an hour without antagonism? :)
[01:52] <mdke> infinity: sorry, I'll give you an extra hour next time
[01:53] <infinity> That's more like it.  Let the dholbach flow within you.
[01:56] <crimsun_> on no sleep, nonetheless. A true trooper.
[01:56] <infinity> "sleep"?
[01:56] <crimsun_> yeah, that mystical thing...
[02:04] <desrt> mjg59; ping
[02:13] <mdz> infinity: what's breaking the publisher?
[02:15] <infinity> mdz: A new code update crashed the publisher in some crazy fashion.
[02:16] <infinity> mdz: That got fixed, but the crash happened at an inconvenient enough time that the DB and archive became hideously inconsistent and required all sorts of sketchy manual fixing.
[02:16] <infinity> mdz: It's all better now.
[02:16] <mdz> infinity: sorry I asked
[02:17] <infinity> :)
[02:17] <infinity> Also, SKETCHY.
[02:17] <desrt> dollhouse.
[02:17] <infinity> Did I mention that it was SKETCHY!
[02:17] <LaserJock> mdz: you probably want to close your eyes, unless you have a screen reader
[02:18] <infinity> mdz: The last few hundred lines of ##soyuz1.0 (which you still appear to be on) would be either illuminating or very frightening, depending on your mood.
[02:18] <infinity> mdz: If it would be the latter, I recommend killing that window and deleting any on-disk logs you may have.
[02:43] <poningru> I had a question regarding the concern regarding eol of 1.0.x branch of firefox
[02:44] <poningru> I havent looked at the different stuff but we are only concerend with backporting the 1.5.0.3-> 1.5.0.4 security fixes right? or is it all the patches?
[02:44] <poningru> because there are some 'stability' patches in there
[02:49] <bddebian> Heya
[02:50] <infinity> poningru: Just the security fixes.
[02:51] <infinity> poningru: Grabbing those from the references bug reports is generally reasonably trivial.  Backporting them to shoehorn them into the aviary-1.0 branch is much less trivial.
[02:51] <mdke> wasn't there an option of releasing 1.5 with breezy?
[02:51] <poningru> infinity: hmm true
[02:51] <poningru> the latter I wasnt thinking about
[02:52] <infinity> poningru: I spent a month(!) backporting patches to firefox 0.9 before we finally decided to just upgrade hoary to 1.0.x because it was too much of a pain.
[02:52] <poningru> ouch
[02:52] <infinity> poningru: And the structural and API changes between 0.9 and 1.0 were much less than between 1.0 and 1.5
[02:53] <poningru> yeah, that was a pretty big update
[02:53] <infinity> poningru: I pride myself on being able to backport just about anything anywhere (I maintained php3 for several years after upstream EOL'd it, backporting security fixes from php4 and php5), but the mozilla codebase is just pure evil, and the security fixes are always hideously intrusive.
[02:54] <poningru> hehe too true
[02:54] <poningru> regarding the moz stuff being evil
[02:54] <poningru> problems of going from proprietry to open code
[02:55] <poningru> well proprietry code has to be crappy, if you open up that stuff, its bound to be embarresing(sp?)
[02:56] <neuralis> poningru: it's *FAR* less clear-cut than you're making it out to be.
[02:56] <poningru> ...
[02:57] <neuralis> poningru: i wasn't arguing.
[02:57] <poningru> k
[02:59] <infinity> Netscape's code was definitely scary.  I've seen some proprietary projects open up that were really quite clean and a joy to work with.
[02:59] <ajmitch> and then there's OO.o
[02:59] <infinity> Quake comes to mind. :)
[03:00] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[03:00] <infinity> (Yes, the fact that I understand the Quake source and can't wrap my head around Mozilla is saying somthing)
[03:00] <ajmitch> hello bddebian 
[03:01] <infinity> poningru: By the time I was done my backport-fest, I had 2MB of patches (seriously), with one bug left to hunt down (something about breaking right-click, IIRC)... I could have fixed that bug, but as I was hunting it, upstream released another dozen security fixes, and we decided that enough was enough.
[03:01] <neuralis> infinity: ... and if you say you play doom2, you're *so* on in a week.
[03:01] <infinity> I didn't want to be employed full-time to backport security fixes to Mozilla products, and my employer didn't want that either. :)
[03:01] <infinity> neuralis: doom2, or doom3?
[03:01] <neuralis> 2.
[03:02] <infinity> neuralis: I don't play anything particularly ancient anymore, except the odd nostalgic romp in Quake1/QuakeWorld.
[03:02] <infinity> neuralis: Otherwise, I'd rather have a rousing game of Q3, or D3/Q4.
[03:02] <neuralis> infinity: me neither, but doom2 -- doom2 is like a fine red wine. only gets better with age.
[03:02] <infinity> (QuakeWorld is still where it's at, though)
[03:04] <poningru> so would it be better to wait till 1.5.0.5 to continue discussion about this?
[03:05] <infinity> No, the discussion pretty much needs to happen now.
[03:05] <infinity> We need a clear path for hoary/breezy, as well as a formal policy for WTF we're going to do in dapper when 1.5 ie EOL.
[03:06] <poningru> hehe yeah
[03:06] <poningru> that is gonna be the bitch
[03:06] <infinity> s/ie/is/
[03:06] <neuralis> infinity: quite frankly, given the complexity of the code involved, my personal take is that any backporting efforts are an enormous waste of time, even if they're a better solution in theory than introducing a new version.
[03:07] <infinity> neuralis: See, and normally I disagree, except for the previously-mentioned wasted month of my life.
[03:07] <poningru> yeah go with what mdke said, force 1.5 update
[03:08] <neuralis> infinity: normally i don't think so either, hence the "given ..." disclaimer. on the other hand, i know (largish) deployments that have custom extensions for firefox installed that aren't compatible with 1.5. 
[03:08] <neuralis> infinity: since these don't do centralized upgrades of any kind, i'm foreseeing a lot of cursing and swearing when users see that shiny new update in update-manager..
[03:09] <infinity> Yeah, it's touchy.
[03:10] <ajmitch> upgrading the myriad other applications that use firefox is doable, though messy
[03:10] <infinity> But for large Win32 deployments, they'd just be rolling out the upstream builds at they come along, so most mixed environments should already know how to deal with this from their Win32 experience.
[03:13] <poningru> 1.5.0.5 comes out on the 15 btw
[03:53] <mgalvin> Riddell: any thing you would like to add to Issue2 if you have time?
[03:55] <Hobbsee> mgalvin: this is for the newsletter?
[03:55] <mgalvin> Hobbsee: yup
[03:55] <Hobbsee> mgalvin: only that kde is better than gnome, of couse :P
[03:55] <Hobbsee> *course
[03:55] <mgalvin> :P
[03:55] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:56] <Hobbsee> what else *would* you put in a newsletter, really... :P
[03:57] <ajmitch> the truth?
[03:58] <Hobbsee> heh
[03:58] <Hobbsee> good morning ajmitch 
[03:58] <ajmitch> hi
[04:15] <Burgundavia> sivang: I imagine you are not awake, but ping
[04:16] <Hobbsee> mgalvin: FYI - it's 3am there
[04:17] <mgalvin> thanks, i just figured i would ping him and he will get back to me whenever
[04:18] <desrt> Hobbsee; follower of mammon.
[04:18] <Hobbsee> desrt: huh?
[04:18] <Hobbsee> mgalvin: true.  i find that sometimes works.
[04:18] <desrt> Hobbsee; random accusation
[04:18] <Hobbsee> oh
[04:19] <desrt> Hobbsee; mostly due to the pitchfork brandishing and the proclamations that kde is better than gnome
[04:19] <Hobbsee> haha
[04:19] <Hobbsee> pitchforks are useful
[04:19] <Hobbsee> ! dont knock them!
[04:19] <desrt> well, ya
[04:19] <desrt> but those two things together?
[04:19] <desrt> you're clearly a satan worshiper
[04:19] <jsgotangco> begone!
[04:19] <Hobbsee> er...
[04:26] <Burgundavia> dholbach!
[05:40] <darius_> Is there a "local" mirror server for Ubuntu where organizations can cache Ubuntu updates, etc locally and install on several systems from the local cache?
[05:43] <darius_> w
[05:43] <crimsun_> darius_: you can create your own mirror with rsync
[05:44] <crimsun_> darius_: (http://www.ubuntu.com/download/mirror)
[05:46] <darius_> but I assume that the Repositories list has to be changed on each workstation
[05:46] <darius_> ?
[05:48] <crimsun_> darius_: yes
[09:22] <sladen> darius_: see apt-cache
[09:23] <sladen> darius_: or a Squid proxy will do a similar job for you
[09:50] <makko> why wasn't the above-mentioned fix implemented in dapper? url: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/printthread.php?t=32063&pp=40
[09:50] <makko> s/above/below/
[09:52] <siretart> makko: because it wasn't properly in launchpad? (just a gues)
[09:52] <siretart> guess
[09:53] <jsgotangco> fixes from forums cannot be implemented if not submitted as a patch
[09:53] <fabbione> and bugs in lp
[09:53] <fabbione> clearly people still do NOT understand that there is ONLY ONE bug tracking system
[09:54] <fabbione> and forums is not it
[09:54] <jsgotangco> and we've always said it in every milestone release :/
[09:57] <makko> anyway, i wonder how come nobody *else* ever thought of this issue
[09:57] <fabbione> because nobody reported it as such
[09:58] <makko> btw, can it be submitted as a dapper update?
[09:58] <fabbione> makko: file a bug with a patch and the people that cares of audio will look at it
[10:04] <makko> fabbione: in malone?
[10:04] <fabbione> yes
[10:05] <makko> fabbione: how do i find out that it's not already submitted?
[10:05] <fabbione> makko: search/look/read
[10:06] <siretart> makko: there is a form 'search for existing bugs'
[10:08] <makko> siretart: yes, i found it, thanks
[10:08] <makko> and am i supposed to file send that bug report/fix again for edgy?
[10:08] <sladen> wonder if we could get the forum guys to add a big "Please file bugs and solutions in the Launchpad bugtracker after you have found them2
[10:08] <makko> s/file//
[10:09] <makko> sladen: i think that's a good idea
[10:09] <sladen> makko: add a comment to the bug saying that you're experiencing it and that it also exists in edgy
[10:10] <sladen> and that here's the reference ... and this is the patch that will fix it
[10:10] <makko> sladen: no, i mean, what if that is some setup which should be default in all future releases of ubuntu: how do i make sure it will become standard and i won't meet that issue again?
[10:11] <makko> sladen: i hate to do things twice, you know
[10:11] <jsgotangco> if it gets fixed for the next release, then it doesn't work again in the future, it's considered a regression and people *will* notice it
[10:12] <martyvis> we are starting to get quite a few updates now in dapper-updates and dapper-security. I am doing a installfest next week. is there an easy way to create a "updates cd" which I can use in the machines on top of the desktop cd to allow me to make sure the new newbies walk away with a freshly updated machine? 
[10:12] <sladen> makko: you make sure that things become standard by filing bugs or specifications
[10:12] <pygi> martyvis, for now, not really
[10:12] <sladen> martyvis: grab the dapper-updates Packages file and copy those .debs onto a CD
[10:12] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:12] <makko> sladen: oh, i think i will file it as a specification then
[10:13] <jsgotangco> then add them to your sources.list
[10:13] <martyvis> OK, i figured that
[10:13] <sladen> makko: woo!  yes please
[10:13] <martyvis> is the plan then for say a dapper respin in 6 months (rather than installing edgy)?
[10:14] <sladen> martyvis: don't know.  It's an LTS release, so that may well happen
[10:14] <martyvis> sladen: i saw a post (for debian) about a update-cd script - anyidea if this would work with Ubuntu?
[10:15] <jdub> martyvis: one sec
[10:15] <martyvis> i think it might be a bit scary for my new users to let them go home knowing that there is maybe 20MB of updates already to download (firefox just got an update)
[10:15] <martyvis> a lot will be on dialup
[10:15] <jsgotangco> well
[10:16] <jsgotangco> putting them on cd will work for them for sure
[10:16] <sladen> martyvis: yes, it probably would
[10:17] <sladen> we should make this really easy.  The infrastructure for recognising an Ubuntu upgrade disk in the machine is already there
[10:17] <jsgotangco> that's true
[10:17] <martyvis> I'll do a bit of research - maybe a wiki entry might come out of it
[10:17] <jdub> martyvis: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/2006/ubuntu-updates/
[10:18] <jdub> it's very rough, but it'll do what you want
[10:18] <jdub> you need debmirror installed
[10:18] <jsgotangco> that's nice
[10:19] <jdub> (it doesn't do *anything* pretty, but i should perk it up a bit and suggest we do something like it officially)
[10:19] <jsgotangco> jdub sp1 disc
[10:19] <jsgotangco> heh
[10:19] <jdub> heh
[10:19] <martyvis> jdub: thanks jeff, debmirror looks like the clue stick i needed. already was thinking of a neato script using Packages.gz
[10:20] <jdub> wow, > 100MB updates now
[10:20] <Fujitsu> !?
[10:20] <lifeless> heh, 'released' == 'do more later'
[10:20] <Fujitsu> Iiinteresting.
[10:20] <jdub> martyvis: that script gives you a good guide for creating a simple mirror, plus will generate the CD image
[10:20] <Fujitsu> I haven't got that many... But I haven't mirrored in about 3 days.
[10:21] <jdub> a bunch of security updates went out over the last few days
[10:21] <jdub> courier, dovecot, postgresql, not small things
[10:21] <jdub> well
[10:21] <jsgotangco> and of course, firefox
[10:21] <jdub> not tiny anyway
[10:21] <martyvis> jdub: thanks - i actually use apt-proxy at home (which is a bit buggy as it only allows half of my machines to connect - some bug in twisted that wants to check up ports from clients in /etc/services )
[10:22] <imbrandon64> apt-mirror works well too
[10:22] <jdub> i reckon we could do a slipstream CD too, at least for the alternate CD
[10:22] <Fujitsu> It'd be a good idea.
[10:22] <martyvis> jdub: slipstreaming would even be better - is there a standard debian way of doing that - or does need writing as well
[10:23] <jdub> there's not a slap-your-head easy way
[10:23] <jdub> well, there is for a local mirror
[10:23] <jdub> but not for a CD
[10:24] <jdub> oh man
[10:24] <martyvis> i'm a great fan of jidgo - i was jigdoing the daily release every week or so using my previous download, and my ISP unmetered mirror. i only then had a few packages to grab from the official archive
[10:24] <jdub> firefox-dbg is wonderful proof that we need debuginfo repos
[10:27] <makko> sladen: i posted the specification, but nobody is evaluating it
[10:28] <sladen> makko: when did you post it?
[10:28] <hunger> My locales are all screwed up in edgy. Is that a known problem?
[10:28] <pygi> hunger, in edgy? :)
[10:28] <pygi> nice :P
[10:28] <makko> sladen: just now
[10:28] <sladen> hunger: please file a bug report if it is not doing what you're expecting
[10:28] <makko> sladen: i mean, after we discussed
[10:28] <sladen> makko: well, it might take, y'know, longer than 60 seconds to review it
[10:28] <jsgotangco> lol
[10:29] <sladen> makko: what's the URL?
[10:29] <hunger> sladen: I will. I was just wondering whether that was already known.
[10:29] <sladen> hunger: I am not aware of it yet.  If you file a bug, the releveant people will be alerted if they are not already
[10:29] <martyvis> jdub: debmirror'ing ubuntu ubdate cd as we speak :-) - will test update process on a fresh dapper VM tonight
[10:30] <sladen> "Service Pack" CDs, published once per month, with all the packages that have been upated since the dapper CD release
[10:31] <makko> sladen: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/software-sound-mixing
[10:31] <sladen> makko: can you  s/like, say,/such as/
[10:32] <makko> sladen: yes, but can i still do it?
[10:32] <jdub> makko: hopefully we'll ditch dmix for polypaudio :-)
[10:33] <makko> jdub: why, are there any such plans??
[10:33] <jdub> not as yet
[10:34] <sladen> makko: I think we have dmix on by default already
[10:34] <makko> sladen: i did that substitution. anyway, what is wrong with ", say, ", is it too slang?
[10:34] <sladen> makko: how much of that suggestion still applies?
[10:35] <makko> sladen: dapper doesn't seem to support multiple apps playing at the same time
[10:35] <kmon> jdub: and what will use kubuntu? polipaudio is gnimish right?
[10:35] <sladen> makko: yes, that's what I thought.  You need to pursuade lots of people, most of whom don't speak English as a first language.
[10:35] <kmon> gnomish
[10:35] <makko> sladen: for instance, when i use amarok, i can't use sound in vmware
[10:35] <jdub> kmon: no, it is not
[10:36] <kmon> jdub: thanks
[10:36] <sladen> makko: because there isn't a multi-open /dev/dsp  I would guess that esd is grabbing /dev/dsp and not allowing any other (single, one of) application to use it
[10:36] <sladen> makko: so the spec is basically  (a) make esd use ALSA
[10:37] <makko> sladen: yes, i guess that is a better option
[10:37] <makko> sladen: don't you agree?
[10:38] <jdub> we already ship libesd-alsa0 by default
[10:38] <sladen> actually it's not even that.  it's "make GNOME use ALSA rather than esd"
[10:38] <makko> sladen: at least as long as we don't implement a better solution
[10:38] <makko> sladen: gnome only?
[10:38] <jdub> sladen: gnome uses esd directly
[10:38] <jdub> sladen: esd -> alsa
[10:38] <sladen> makko: and also  "make esd terminate when not in use so that other applications can use /dev/sdp"
[10:38] <jdub> we already do that
[10:38] <TheMuso> /dev/dsp and sound services = PITA
[10:38] <jdub> see /etc/esound/esd.conf
[10:39] <TheMuso> servers even
[10:40] <TheMuso> Is there a link for this spec yet? Or at least its name?
[10:40] <jdub> for some reason the spec link goes to a forum page
[10:40] <jdub> which basically discusses what was done for dapper
[10:40] <TheMuso> ah got it
[10:41] <jdub> and doesn't really map to what's going on in the world
[10:41] <makko> sladen: so is it unnacceptable?
[10:41] <jdub> makko: we've done all we can with esd and dmix in dapper
[10:41] <makko> jdub: then why does the solution here http://www.ubuntuforums.org/printthread.php?t=32063&pp=40 work better?
[10:42] <jdub> a) libesd-alsa0 is already installed
[10:43] <jdub> b) i believe a different alsa configuration is used; check with pitti
[10:43] <TheMuso> Has anybody worked out how to reliably get /dev/dsp stuff mixed as well?
[10:43] <jdub> c) changing the gstreamer setting to alsa is fine
[10:43] <jdub> TheMuso: it totally depends on your app
[10:43] <TheMuso> the alsa-oss package seems to be borked.
[10:44] <jdub> TheMuso: skype, for instance, is pretty thoroughly broken
[10:44] <TheMuso> jdub: Yeah I know.
[10:44] <TheMuso> I'm just thinking in terms of software speech synthesis.
[10:44] <makko> jdub: so could you please help me clean my specification?
[10:44] <sladen> TheMuso: it keeps stalling because the kernel people are saying "no" to either of the solutions
[10:44] <TheMuso> Particularly proprietary synths.
[10:44] <jdub> makko: i can't see what your specification solves (also, why is it in the forums instead of on the wiki?)
[10:44] <sladen> TheMuso: if you have a card that can do hardware mixing, then it works
[10:45] <TheMuso> sladen: Yes, but that doesn't help the vast majority of users.
[10:45] <makko> jdub: could you please give me an url of the wiki?
[10:45] <makko> jdub: i will post it there
[10:45] <jdub> wiki.ubuntu.com
[10:45] <TheMuso> What are the two different solutions? Got a pointer to them?
[10:45] <jdub> where everything lives
[10:45] <sladen> TheMuso: agreed.  This might have to be something that we "get on with" and hammer it through the kernel upstream later.  They are currently blocking the solutions
[10:46] <jdub> makko: if you want this spec to be relevant, look into what the red hat guys have done with dmix configuration in fedora
[10:47] <sladen> TheMuso: bouncing /dev/dsp connections back to userspace;  or in-kernel software-mixing
[10:47] <TheMuso> Right.
[10:47] <TheMuso> Personally I prefer the bounce back to userspace.
[10:47] <TheMuso> But thats just me.
[10:47] <jdub> makko: but really, few people are really loving alsa or dmix, so i think it's unlikely that this is a long term solution
[10:48] <sladen> TheMuso: start here:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2006-May/007009.html
[10:48] <TheMuso> sladen: Thanks.
[10:49] <sladen> jdub: my personal want would be to "just" accept that /dev/dsp needs fixing.  Do it.  And then have the other problems disappear.
[10:50] <jdub> sure, but then we're still stuck with alsa and dmix :-)
[10:51] <jdub> app -> /dev/dsp -> kernel -> (daemon, where daemon == polypaudio)
[10:51] <jdub> would be fine
[10:51] <jdub> but another way to go about it
[10:51] <makko> jdub: there is no polypaudio in any ubuntu repo. why?
[10:52] <jdub> would be to standardise on a library interface that application developers want to use, so they're not stuck using oss
[10:52] <jdub> makko: the old versions were removed a while back
[10:52] <jdub> makko: 0.9.x will end up in edgy some time
[10:53] <TheMuso> "Fix the Apps" as stated by Lee Revell in that thread is not always possible.
[10:54] <jdub> TheMuso: it is, oddly enough, but we are not making it easy
[10:54] <jdub> (dsp should be fixed in the meantime, however)
[10:55] <TheMuso> Perhaps, but trying to convince some proprietary synth developers ofthat probably won't be easy.
[10:55] <jdub> sure it will
[10:56] <jdub> "whoa, using that hopeless oss dsp crap? here's an api/abi stable library that will give you way more bang for your buck, and reasonable latency plus reporting to boot - rock on kids!"
[10:56] <TheMuso> Its something I should look at pursuing anyway.
[10:56] <jdub> oss is still used because it's a consistent interface and mostly just works
[10:56] <jdub> that's why skype uses it (badly)
[10:56] <jdub> standardise on something sane, we can bring them across
[10:56] <jdub> because there'll be value
[10:57] <jdub> TheMuso: look at libao :-)
[10:58] <sladen> a -lsimpleaudio that was as simple and easy as OSS and using ALSA as a backend would be great
[10:58] <TheMuso> I've heard of that library before.
[10:58] <sladen> (OTOH, maybe that's way esd was supposed to be)
[10:59] <TheMuso> Time to send some emails to synth developers me thinks.
[10:59] <jdub> that's what ao is meant to be
[10:59] <sladen> and polyp is an remplmentation of the say inteface
[10:59] <sladen> of the same interface
[10:59] <jdub> and polypaudio has an ao plugin
[11:56] <jdub> wow, updates CD was 60MB when i first did it, now it's 193MB
[12:30] <_ion> I wonder why unattended-upgrades didn't upgrade gdm (from ubuntu-security). Looking at the code, it seems like it would ignore any upgrades that depend on new stuff from a non-security repository, but the gdm package didn't.
[12:30] <_ion> 2006-06-10 07:36:28,886 INFO package 'gdm' not upgraded 2006-06-10 07:36:35,507 INFO Packages that are upgraded: libxine-main1 binutils firefox libpq4 libnss3 libnspr4 binutils-static firefox-gnome-support
[02:20] <sivang> Burgwork: pong
[02:21] <sivang> hmm, now he's probably asleep
[02:21] <tseng> only if he is lazy
[02:22] <ajmitch> far too early to sleep
[02:23] <sivang> ok, laters
[03:22] <MagicFab_sleepin> hello
[03:23] <MagicFab_sleepin> I don't know if this is the right place, but wanted to know if someone knows/has a way to confirm this:
[03:23] <MagicFab_sleepin> http://fasmz.org/~pterjan/blog/?date=20060609#p01
[03:24] <MagicFab_sleepin> I hate people assuming things and not asking, but I don't know how to handle to  this one
[03:33] <HiddenWolf> here comes the great debate
[03:33] <HiddenWolf> MagicFab_sleepin: best raise any concerns on the mailing list
[04:02] <MagicFab> HiddenWolf, I did on #ubuntu-marketing, which one do u suggest ?
[04:03] <HiddenWolf> MagicFab: devel or sounder
[04:03] <HiddenWolf> MagicFab: mailing list, not irc
[04:03] <MagicFab> sounder, yes. tx
[04:06] <bddebian> Howdy
[04:15] <MagicFab> sent to sounder
[04:15] <MagicFab> gotta go
[04:30] <mjg59> desrt: Hi?
[04:31] <pianoboy3333> Can someone here help me with the python curses module? I need to know how to resize a curses window.
[05:58] <dholbach> heya anselmolsm!
[05:58] <anselmolsm> hi dholbach !
[05:59] <dholbach> anselmolsm: care to join #ubuntu-soc?
[05:59] <anselmolsm> ok
[05:59] <bddebian> Heya Daniel
[06:00] <dholbach> hey bddebian
[06:00] <tseng> hi all
[06:02] <karim> I have a problem on dapper ppc when I dist-upgrade it installs 24 packages, but then after that if I redistupgrade it against wants to installs them
[06:02] <bddebian> Heya tseng
[06:20] <bddebian> dholbach: still here?
[06:21] <dholbach> bddebian: Yepa
[06:21] <bddebian> dholbach: Mind if I /query you for a sec?
[06:22] <dholbach> bddebian: not at all
[06:31] <bluefoxicy> hey is it a bug or a feature that putting "alias ls='ls --color'" into ~/.profile makes it impossible to log in correctly?
[06:32] <Treenaks> bluefoxicy: why does it make it impossible?
[06:32] <bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  I have nfc.  It just says it can't start gnome-session in .xsession-errors; rm'ing the .profile fixed it.
[06:32] <bluefoxicy> also manually starting gnome-session worked
[06:32] <Treenaks> strange
[06:33] <bluefoxicy> it doesn't matter, I'm happy anyway ^_^
[06:37] <tseng> bluefoxicy: where was the bad marking?
[06:38] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  libgcrypt.so.11
[06:38] <bluefoxicy> tseng: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/libgcrypt11/+bug/49192
[06:38] <Ubug2> Malone bug 49192 in libgcrypt11 "libgcrypt11 has an executable stack" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[06:39] <bluefoxicy> tseng: http://rafb.net/paste/results/YnDGmj25.html One user process with w|x, too many root processes, but none of those are stack (and rhythmbox hasn't played a flac yet so I don't have a +X stack on that yet)
[06:40] <bluefoxicy> ugh.. I can't find x86 .s or .S files in the flac source tree.  *tries disabling all assembly optimization crap* I have doubts this one is going to be so simple :(
[06:57] <bluefoxicy> fixed it.
[07:20] <marga> Hi! I'd like to get in touch with the people that develop/ed Rosetta... Does anyone here know who they are?
[07:20] <pygi> marga, #launchpad
[07:21] <marga> ok /join #launchpad
[07:21] <marga> sorry. :)
[07:27] <janimo> mdz: ping
[07:31] <BenC> so when is the queue for edgy going to start processing?
[07:38] <HiddenWolf> BenC: did you see that story about ubuntu being non-free?
[07:38] <BenC> no
[07:39] <BenC> got a url?
[07:39] <HiddenWolf> http://fasmz.org/~pterjan/blog/?date=20060609#p01
[07:39] <HiddenWolf> someone asked about it here in the channel
[07:39] <desrt> BenC; more fun patches 4 u
[07:39] <HiddenWolf> 16:02 CET
[07:42] <BenC> HiddenWolf: eh, everyone will have an opinion on that...it's no surprise
[07:43] <HiddenWolf> Does it have any merit?
[07:43] <BenC> I can understand both sides of the argument, but what it boils down to is Ubuntu has take great strides in keeping it's promise of a free (as in beer) operating system that works on as many systems as possible
[07:44] <Mirv> BenC: non-free stuff should still be in restricted always, if the case is as he says in the blog
[07:44] <BenC> I really dislike the argument about "you give this to newbies without them knowing they have proprietary stuff on it", when any linux newbie will 1) Be used to proprietary, or not care, and 2) Wont understand the argument that their hardware doesn't work because the driver/firmware isn't free/open
[07:45] <Mirv> unless there is a clear agreement that binary blobs that are not executed on the host machine can be included inside the main kernel
[07:45] <HiddenWolf> That argument is somewhat fundementalistic.
[07:45] <BenC> :P
[07:47] <BenC> one good point is that perhaps all firmware should be moved to linux-restricted-modules
[07:47] <BenC> but that's about all I get out of that article/rant
[07:47] <desrt> i find funny: the reason that l-r-m is so damn annoying (with the 'volatile') is not because of ati/nvidia/atheros/anyone
[07:47] <HiddenWolf> BenC: I guess he's pissed that he lost his "100-percent-open" bragging rights.
[07:47] <Mirv> BenC: yes, the rant seems to be about Ubuntu being not Debian.. or actually, not even that.. it's clear that ubuntu has this "restricted" thing as well as Debian has non-free
[07:48] <desrt> o
[07:48] <desrt> so... i installed vmware-player today
[07:48] <BenC> having l-r-m installed by default and on the CD is a question of "feedom of speech" vs. "make it work on my box, I don't care about your religous high ground"
[07:48] <desrt> it works really great
[07:48] <desrt> and i don't feel any dimished as a human being because o fit
[07:48] <BenC> desrt: vmware-player is really nice
[07:49] <desrt> BenC; i like it better than the real thing
[07:49] <desrt> it's fast and has a very very simple UI and boots directly into my VM on start and auto-suspends on close
[07:49] <desrt> what else do i need?  nothing.
[07:49] <BenC> desrt: the vmware-player image site pretty much makes vmware proper only useful to enterprise systems
[07:50] <desrt> plus
[07:50] <Lathiat> not really
[07:50] <Lathiat> it does lots of cool stuff
[07:50] <desrt> the modules taking care of themselves = big win.
[07:50] <Lathiat> i use the virutal network stuff of workstation all the time
[07:50] <BenC> Lathiat: well, I can just "cp image.vdk backup.vdk" to work around the need for snapshots :)
[07:51] <Lathiat> heh
[07:51] <Lathiat> yeh theyre handy too
[07:51] <Lathiat> as is the ability to duplicate machines etc, and from snapshots
[07:51] <Lathiat> but i guess in lots of cases
[07:51] <Lathiat> player is quite usefull
[07:51] <BenC> does player support shares?
[07:51] <Lathiat> wonder how long til someoen makes a tool to create vmware projects
[07:51] <Lathiat> or does one exist already?
[07:52] <desrt> BenC; shares?
[07:52] <jdub> Lathiat: vmx files?
[07:52] <Lathiat> jdub: i guess?
[07:52] <BenC> like windoes shares from your host to the client
[07:52] <Lathiat> desrt: workstation has crack samba craziness
[07:52] <jdub> Lathiat: google for 'vmware vmx' and you'll find a web based tool
[07:52] <desrt> BenC; you don't need support in vmware for that
[07:52] <Lathiat> jdub: heh
[07:52] <desrt> BenC; just use samba...
[07:52] <BenC> but vmware makes it so much easier :)
[07:52] <BenC> true though, you don't need that built-in
[07:53] <mgalvin> *cough*
[07:53] <mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/downloads/blank_vmware_image.tar.gz
[07:54] <Lathiat> slip of the paste button? ;)
[07:54] <jdub> Lathiat: and you can create the vmdk with qemu-img
[07:54] <Lathiat> i guess yoru supposed to distrebute those anyway
[07:54] <Lathiat> jdub: nod
[07:54] <mgalvin> in case that might be useful to anyone, it a blank vmware image with a default vmx
[07:55] <desrt> BenC; http://desrt.mcmaster.ca/random/ich7-sci-en-hack.patch
[07:55] <mgalvin> jdub: issue 2 for UWN is almost all set in case you want to take a peek before i mail it out tonight
[07:55] <desrt> BenC; would you take something like this?
[07:57] <Mirv> I'd like to see separation of firmwares from the rest of the restricted stuff.. like not being forced to install nvidia-common etc. if I just want the ipw2200 firmware
[07:58] <BenC> desrt: Sure, but don't label it "hack" :)
[07:58] <desrt> BenC; it's most definitely a hack :)
[07:58] <BenC> desrt: Ok, but disable the KERN_WARNING, or make it sound less horrible :)
[07:58] <desrt> ah.  right.  ok.
[07:59] <BenC> KERN_INFO, and more pleasant...always getting complaints from users about scary dmesg output
[07:59] <desrt> BenC; i'm copying a function in that file that does an equiv thing for toshiba notebooks and uses WARNING
[07:59] <BenC> "I saw the word hack in my kern.log...have I been hacked?!?!?"
[07:59] <BenC> ah
[08:00] <jdub> mgalvin: when is 'tonight' in hours?
[08:01] <desrt> BenC; how's 'quirk'?
[08:01] <izm99> Hey, not sure if anyone will find it useful, but I wrote a substitute for the /usr/bin/gnome-volume-manager-gthumb script.  This is the script that is run when you insert a flash card containing DCIM folder (digital pics) or connect a digital camera.
[08:01] <BenC> yeah, that's a good word
[08:01] <desrt> k.
[08:01] <izm99> I'm not an experienced dev, but details can be found on my blog: http://www.stevenbrown.ca/blog/archives/108
[08:09] <HiddenWolf> desrt: ?
[08:10] <desrt> my laptop was failing to go to sleep, but then i remembered that i modified the sleep scripts :p
[08:41] <eXistenZ> ivoks, hello
[09:04] <ivoks> eXistenZ: hi
[10:07] <eXistenZ> ok
[10:07] <eXistenZ> any cups developer around?
[10:14] <crimsun_> eXistenZ: fairly unlikely during the weekend.
[10:15] <eXistenZ> crimsun_, sound/video/printing drivers are ones of the most undeveloped things in linux
[10:17] <mjg59> eXistenZ: ?
[10:17] <mjg59> For sound, I'm pretty certain that's not true
[10:18] <eXistenZ> mjg59, I tried to duplicate my mp3 to all 5.1 stereo speakers, but unfortunately it made lots of noise.
[10:18] <mjg59> eXistenZ: How did you try that?
[10:18] <eXistenZ> mjg59, In windows it is duplicated without any problem
[10:18] <eXistenZ> mjg59, By editing .asoundrc
[10:20] <eXistenZ> mjg59, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=167986&highlight=surround
[10:20] <crimsun_> mp3s are not native "5.1". You can only duplicate front to have a "surround effect".
[10:21] <eXistenZ> crimsun_, I know. That's why one has to duplicate the speakers.
[10:22] <crimsun_> the reason that .asoundrc won't work for you is because routing is chipset specific
[10:23] <eXistenZ> crimsun_, Is it possible to customize it to my chipset?
[10:23] <crimsun_> eXistenZ: sure, ask in #alsa
[10:26] <tnks> Hi.  I don't mean to raise a lot of controversy, but I've always been interested in the fork of Ubuntu from Debian.  I've heard that restrictive licensing might have been an issue.  Was there other issues?  Is there a page that discusses this well?
[10:26] <mjg59> tnks: Not really, no
[10:26] <mjg59> Licensing didn't play a part in it
[10:27] <tnks> mjg59: okay.  I'm interested in your explanation if you have the time.
[10:27] <FunnyHat> Or if you have a URL that explains it??
[10:27] <BenC> do uploads to *-security not show up in launchpad?
[10:27] <mjg59> It's a fork because Mark decided that he wanted a Linux distribution that was aimed at the common user
[10:29] <tnks> mjg59: I've used Ubuntu systems, but not administered them (although I have administered Debian systems).  Are are some key points of focus of Ubuntu?
[10:29] <tnks> s/What/Are
[10:29] <mjg59> Simplicity
[10:29] <mjg59> (broadly)
[10:30] <tnks> mjg59: Maybe you can help me understand what aspects of Debian were needlessly complex.  I've probably just gotten to used to the system, that I've become desensitized.
[10:30] <mjg59> Including multiple programs that do the same thing would be an obvious one
[10:31] <mjg59> Active involvement with upstream to work on UIs that make common tasks easier
[10:31] <robertj> Also, remember alot has changed in Debian as a response to Ubuntu
[10:31] <tnks> robertj: that's definately true.  I totally don't feel that Ubuntu has harmed Debian in any deep sense.
[10:32] <tnks> If anything, it's been positive.
[10:34] <tnks> I'm just trying to figure out if there are central differences between Ubuntu and Debian testing.
[10:34] <BenC> tnks: Another thing with ubuntu is making things "work out of the box"
[10:34] <tnks> The best I had before coming to the channel is that Debian needs to wrap up it's effort to make the installation process friendly.
[10:34] <BenC> which Debian, in a lot of cases simply cannot due (which can be seen as a good or bad things, depending on your POV)
[10:34] <BenC> s/due/do/
[10:36] <Burgundavia> BenC: is this bunk? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-ca/2006-June/000621.html
[10:37] <tnks> BenC: I see... so do you think this "works out-of-the-box" emphasis has a lot to do with the installer, or is it something more?
[10:37] <Burgundavia> tnks: it pervades everything Ubuntu does, from installer to kernel and up
[10:37] <BenC> right
[10:37] <BenC> Debian out right refuses to allow firmware to be in the default/free install
[10:38] <BenC> we on the other hand actually strive to make drivers work without any hassle, so we have firmware for things on the CD and installed by default
[10:38] <tnks> BenC: cool.
[10:38] <FunnyLookinHat> It comes down to a matter of different goals really...
[10:38] <FunnyLookinHat> Ubuntu is for the newbie/desktop user.
[10:38] <BenC> that's not to say that Debian is wrong, we just chose a different way
[10:38] <FunnyLookinHat> Debian is for the highly customizable high-end user.
[10:39] <tnks> That is defineately a convenience... so licensing seems to be somewhat of a component too.
[10:39] <highvoltage> so is ubuntu?
[10:39] <BenC> coming from Debian, and now working with Ubuntu, I can safely speak on both sides of the matter :)
[10:39] <FunnyLookinHat> It's similiar to comparing, like Fedora to Gentoo.  Fedora = Easy Desktop Experience, Gentoo = Specifically compiled/built OS
[10:39] <BenC> Debian and Ubuntu is for the same people, IMO
[10:39] <BenC> but Ubuntu tried to make entry easier
[10:39] <FunnyLookinHat> BenC, Unless you just want less hassle with drivers/hardware support
[10:40] <BenC> right, if you have the right box, you can use Debian just as easily as Ubuntu
[10:40] <tnks> By the way, the motivation of this discussion, is largely because I'm a long time Debian user, and far too many times people ask me, "Why don't you switch to Ubuntu?"  And I thought maybe you guys could help me get a better answer to that.
[10:40] <hunger> When will the syncing of debian stuff start for edgy?
[10:40] <highvoltage> #ubuntu might be the best place to discuss that though
[10:40] <BenC> this is quickly moving off-topic for the channel I think
[10:40] <hunger> tnks: I came from debian, too.
[10:41] <hunger> tnks: It was great when I had the time to configure it.
[10:41] <tnks> BenC: no problem... I came here from #ubuntu upon recommendation from there.
[10:41] <hunger> tnks: Now that I do not have that luxury any longer I switched to ubuntu. Same solid base, way less hassle for me.
[10:42] <BenC> tnks: No problem, I was just trying to keep the conversation from swinging into a philisophical debate :)
[10:42] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think that is an interesting question
[10:42] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: it is written in a very inflamatory way
[10:42] <hunger> tnks: The debian devs are great... but they favour flexibility over simplicity IMHO.
[10:43] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I have wondered about that myself, can Ubuntu truely claim to only install free software?
[10:43] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: we really shouldn't, if we
[10:44] <BenC> some would argue that Ubuntu as a whole is free, as in beer, not as in free speech
[10:44] <BenC> but we are 99.99% free as in speech, I think
[10:45] <tnks> Okay, just a question or so and I'll let discussion resume as normal...  hunger: Benc: (or anyone that switched from Debian to Ubuntu), asside from firmware, was there anything that worked "out-of-the-box" that you remember having particular difficulties with in Debian?
[10:45] <FunnyLookinHat> tnks, for me it was wireless/graphics mainly
[10:45] <BenC> tnks: I didn't switch to Ubuntu, I got hired by Ubuntu/Canonical, so I'm not a good candidate to answer that
[10:45] <FunnyLookinHat> I was tired of messing with my xorg.conf
[10:45] <highvoltage> tnks: ipw2200 drivers
[10:45] <BenC> my reason for switch was not because I found anything wrong in Debian :)
[10:46] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: I guess http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy has a specific exception for drivers
[10:46] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: it does
[10:46] <BenC> I will say that before Ubuntu, I _never_, and I mean _NEVER_ used a graphical interface for anything
[10:46] <BenC> and now it's all I use because I've never seen one that allowed me to work as easily as Ubuntu's does
[10:46] <hunger> tnks: Hardware of course, but then there are metapackages (ubuntu-desktop/kubuntu-desktop/etc) that give me a nicly preconfigured desktop.
[10:46] <highvoltage> BenC: not even at an atm when you withdrew money? :)
[10:46] <FunnyLookinHat> lol
[10:47] <hunger> tnks: In debian I have to pick and choose all those apps myself...
[10:47] <tnks> highvoltage: yeah... I need to install ipw2200 from the website.  Right now ipw2200 is an orphaned source package.
[10:47] <BenC> highvoltage: hehe
[10:47] <hunger> tnks: And I have to get all those apps to work together.
[10:47] <tnks> hunger: so Ubuntu has some kind of hardware detection that sets that all up?
[10:48] <apokryphos> "/j #ubuntu-doc
[10:48] <apokryphos> ack
[10:48] <hunger> tnks: With breezy my laptop worked completly out of the box (minus winmodem that has no linux drivers).
[10:49] <highvoltage> tnks: it's more of a policy issue, debian has all the functionality and infrastructure, it just doensn't ship with the proprietary firmware
[10:49] <hunger> tnks: dapper is not as nice a release IMHO, that has trouble with the box.
[10:50] <LaserJock> hmm, I really felt (from my experience) that Dapper was better than Breezy about mid Janurary :-)
[10:51] <hunger> tnks: I can get the same HW support in debian... but then I have to figure out the HW specs and look around for the apps I need to get the support. The stuff is all in the debian archives, but it is not installed by default.
[10:52] <hunger> tnks: With ubuntu all I get all kind of HW support installed by default (OK, I get stuff installed that I might never need, but I do not care about the HD space).
[10:53] <tnks> hunger: you but can always install a debian kernel image with all the drivers compiled in, right?  Couple that with discovery and hotplug, and is that close?  What more does Ubuntu do?
[10:54] <hunger> tnks: sure. All the stuff is available in debian. but I have to install and configure bluetooth userspace apps, power management, etc.
[10:55] <hunger> tnks: Ineed to find out which app supports the additional keys on my laptop. With ubuntu they just work. I have to configure X (graphics, touchpad), etc.
[10:56] <FunnyLookinHat> tnks, Ubuntu basically has a large group of pre-setup config files for specific hardware profiles, that is one of the big changes.
[10:56] <tnks> FunnyLookinHat: ahh... that's kind of cool.
[10:56] <hunger> I need to find out how to turn of ipv6 support in konqueror to speed it up (which kubuntu has already done for me), I need to configure konqueror to get useable menus, etc.
[10:57] <FunnyLookinHat> tnks, you should try the LiveCD on any desktop you have and see how it works, it might give you an idea of how well the hardware support it
[10:57] <FunnyLookinHat> tnks, For example, a friend of mine has a GeForce card with a TV-Out section that worked perfectly on the liveCD, no config required
[10:57] <hunger> tnks: ubuntu gives me nicer defaults to start my own configuration.
[10:58] <FunnyLookinHat> Don't get me wrong, that's not ALL that ubuntu is ( a bunch of hardware profiles) but it's a major reason why people choose it as a Desktop Linux OS
[10:58] <tnks> hunger: FunnyLookinHat: cool.  I think you've given me some good indications about pre-configuration of Ubuntu packages.
[10:59] <hunger> tnks: It is not only the pre-configuration: It is the metapackages that get me a nice and consistent set of apps to get work done.
[10:59] <tnks> I do spend a lot of time hacking around with Debian.  Perhaps at some level I've grown to enjoy it.  If I get tired of it, I'll defineately consider Ubunutu.
[10:59] <HiddenWolf> tnks: this is definatly off-topic
[10:59] <tnks> HiddenWolf: okay... I'll move this to #ubuntu.
[11:00] <tnks> thanks for everyone's patience.
[11:00] <hunger> tnks: Those contain one good app for a task... looking in apt-get I get douzends and have to find out which one is good.
[11:00] <FunnyLookinHat> HiddenWolf, sorry I told him to come here initially from #ubuntu for his first question which was fairly related to this or motu...  I appreciate this channels help though : )
[11:01] <HiddenWolf> :)
[11:01] <tnks> If anyone wants to wrap some points, feel free to send some messages to me in #ubuntu.
[11:01] <tnks> what does motu stand for/
[11:02] <tnks> sounds like message of the unicorn.
[11:02] <pygi> masters of universe :)
[11:02] <HiddenWolf> tnks: the masters of the universe, the volunteer group that maintains universe packages in ubuntu
[11:02] <tnks> I think there's some audio equipment with a name like motu where the otu stands for "of the unicorn".
[11:02] <HiddenWolf> tnks: You could find the answers to most of these questions on the wiki.
[11:03] <tnks> HiddenWolf: okay... I'll look there now, thanks.
[11:57] <bddebian> Howdy
[12:01] <mjg59> jdub: It was very weird hearing your voice come from next door