[08:56] <klepas> moin
[08:57] <klepas> hey Madpilot
[08:57] <Madpilot> hi
[10:47] <klepas> when you join a new channel, using
[10:47] <klepas> ack.. wrong window :)
[11:34] <msikma> Hey guys
[11:34] <msikma> Wow, just 5 people in here
[12:52] <troy_s> netsplit city
[05:06] <klepas> moinmoin
[05:07] <msikma> Hi klepas
[05:09] <msikma> Can't wait till I get my new PC. I simply can't edit print sized visuals with 512 MB of RAM.
[05:12] <troy_s> msikma
[05:13] <troy_s> gig of ram is 75 bucks cdn
[05:14] <msikma> I need a new PC anyway.
[05:15] <troy_s> get a dual core 64bit amd brother
[05:15] <troy_s> they rock
[05:15] <msikma> #!@$!#@$ smudge tools
[05:17] <troy_s> what are you using?
[05:18] <troy_s> please tell me you are using gimp
[05:18] <msikma> Why would I use GIMP?
[05:18] <msikma> I don't know my way around it.
[05:18] <troy_s> it is almost identical to photoshop
[05:18] <troy_s> only diff is hotkeys
[05:18] <msikma> Nonsense.
[05:18] <troy_s> more or less identical
[05:18] <troy_s> it is NOT nonsense
[05:19] <msikma> It would be kind of cool to have knowledge of how GIMP works.
[05:19] <troy_s> you need to try it to see for yourself.
[05:19] <msikma> Do you know a lot about it? For example, how would I cut a selection to a new layer in GIMP?
[05:19] <troy_s> egads
[05:19] <troy_s> that is like basic basic
[05:19] <troy_s> marquee tool
[05:19] <troy_s> cut
[05:19] <troy_s> then if you want, paste new layer
[05:19] <troy_s> or anchor it to the layer below
[05:19] <msikma> Yeah, I tried it a few times, but it's simply too confusing for me. Photoshop works for me, I have no desire to spend even more of scarse free time learning another program for something which I can already adequately do with other software.
[05:19] <troy_s> that woudl have taken you less that six seconds to figure out.
[05:20] <msikma> troy_s: is there a shortcut that cuts a selection into a new layer?
[05:20] <msikma> I mean, I get the cut and paste.
[05:20] <troy_s> of course there is.
[05:20] <msikma> But Photoshop has CTRL+SHIFT+J, for example.
[05:20] <troy_s> if you simply use the menu you can see the hotkeys... or you can remap them, or if you are REALLY silly, you can use gimpshop
[05:20] <troy_s> that is called a HOTKEY
[05:20] <troy_s> keybinding
[05:20] <troy_s> every program has had them since about 1969
[05:20] <msikma> Well, whatever.
[05:21] <msikma> Is there one like that in GIMP?
[05:21] <troy_s> do you even use a nix box?
[05:21] <troy_s> you can use gimps
[05:21] <troy_s> you can remap your own in gnome
[05:21] <troy_s> you can do whatever you want
[05:21] <troy_s> bro
[05:21] <troy_s> that which doesn't meet you needs can usually be customized in open source land in under a minute.
[05:22] <troy_s> its very flexible.
[05:22] <msikma> Well, bro, I'm a designer. I'm sorry for using proprietary deathware. But this is what it's gonna be. I still don't see any reason whatsoever to use a program which I don't know my way around when there's another program which I know can do the trick and DOES work for me.
[05:22] <troy_s> one step forwards, two steps back.
[05:22] <msikma> Maybe if so many people weren't so dead set on convincing others that GIMP is better than Photoshop, there would be more designers in open source land
[05:24] <msikma> So yeah. Sorry for this explosive argument from my side.
[05:24] <msikma> But that's really how I feel.
[05:27] <troy_s> feel free.
[05:28] <troy_s> i am not saying gimp is the best thing ever... i am saying that it IS open source and if you tracked how proprietary software trends work, you would see why you should try and support SOMETHING open source.
[05:28] <troy_s> period.
[05:28] <troy_s> that WILL take some effort, but the rewards to the rest of the world are very large.
[05:29] <msikma> I do plan on trying to tame the beast at some point.
[05:29] <msikma> It can't be all that hard once I get past the initial frustrations.
[05:34] <troy_s> yah you really can't get frustrated... that will kill you.  i will say
[05:34] <troy_s> that there have been a few folks who have tried to make
[05:34] <troy_s> an interface adaption for people who are very fearful  -- it is called gimpshop
[05:34] <troy_s> i believe all the key bindings and layout try to be identical.
[05:37] <msikma> Yeah, but I don't see why I would use that.
[05:37] <msikma> I'm interested in seeing if GIMP's layout is actually beneficial to workflow.
[05:40] <troy_s> what's up kelpas?
[05:41] <troy_s> layout is just frontend.
[05:43] <msikma> "Just the frontend"? It's the layout I'm interested in for GIMP. If that "confusing" layout actually makes me work faster once I get accustomed to it, then that would be one reason for a possible switch.
[05:44] <troy_s> that is waht gimpshop is
[05:44] <msikma> I know that it can do pretty much everything Photoshop can. But if it can do that while at the same time being easy and quick to use, then things get interesting (to me).
[05:44] <troy_s> gimpshop controls the frontend.. it is gimp
[05:44] <troy_s> but it organizes it to what you would be used to.
[05:44] <msikma> Yes, but I'm not interested in GIMPshop.
[05:44] <troy_s> with me?
[05:44] <troy_s> yes... but the migration MIGHT be easier for you...
[05:44] <msikma> I just want to see whether the layout of GIMP (not GIMPshop) works better than Photoshop's.
[05:45] <msikma> Placement of tools. Shortcut keys. Et cetera.
[05:45] <msikma> That's one reason why I could switch.
[05:45] <troy_s> ultimately it is just 'different' really.
[05:45] <troy_s> the upside is that you can run a native 64 bit version
[05:45] <troy_s> which is a power factor
[05:45] <troy_s> great for scripts and such.
[05:46] <msikma> There's one thing I don't really like about GIMP, though.
[05:46] <troy_s> ?
[05:46] <msikma> A while ago, there was this splash screen contest for GIMP. It was on Slashdot. I'm not sure if you know which one I'm talking about, since they hold those competitions pretty often, right?
[05:46] <troy_s> msikma:  its open source :)
[05:47] <msikma> And I remember checking it, totally not liking the winning entry, and going through all other submissions and not finding a single entry that I liked.
[05:47] <msikma> And that made me think that GIMP has a poor userbase. That might be (very) unfair of me, but that's how it appeared to me when I read that news post.
[05:47] <troy_s> uh have you ever needed to create art as part of an artistic team... that's what it is about.
[05:47] <msikma> I don't see what you mean.
[05:48] <troy_s> try working on an animation friend.
[05:48] <troy_s> ;)
[05:48] <msikma> I still don't see what you mean.
[05:48] <troy_s> if you are a lead, you make decisions... if you are a grunt, you need to learn how to contribute to make the direction better.  not sit and whine and try to change things...
[05:48] <troy_s> it is how styles develop
[05:48] <msikma> But surely, you can't rebut that it's very discouraging if a designer can't see any good entries in a competition like that.
[05:49] <msikma> I don't see how this is relevant to what I've just said.
[05:49] <troy_s> msikma:  you need to educate... i am quite sure that there are historic artistic genres you wouldn't like either.
[05:49] <troy_s> what i am trying to say, is as shakespeare would say, one man's meat is another mans poison
[05:49] <msikma> Oh.
[05:49] <msikma> So you're saying that even though all entries were bad, that's just my opinion and everybody else thought they rocked?
[05:50] <troy_s> your idea of bad might not be the same as others...
[05:50] <msikma> What.
[05:50] <troy_s> there is no such thing as bad... just different.
[05:50] <troy_s> i like bergman
[05:50] <msikma> What a horrible argument.
[05:50] <troy_s> you like spielberg.
[05:50] <troy_s> oh lord.
[05:50] <msikma> troy_s: are you trying to say that I don't know how to tell good designs from bad designs? There's such a thing as bad designs, you know. Not everything can be explained as "different".
[05:50] <troy_s> yes
[05:50] <msikma> And that contest for GIMP splash screens had awful submissions.
[05:50] <msikma> That is an opinion from a designer.
[05:52] <msikma> I don't see why one would have to take it easy on GIMP users simply because they use open source software.
[05:52] <msikma> They were simply bad designs.
[05:52] <msikma> Sure, some might like it, but I remember talking to people I work with about it. We actually didn't talk about it for very long, just quickly agreed "yeah, that's pretty bad" and then went on about our business.
[06:08] <troy_s> designer... blah
[06:08] <troy_s> if it were that simple, the world wouldn't have artistic genres.
[06:08] <troy_s> sorry...
[06:10] <troy_s> "There's such a thing as bad designs, you know."  -- that statement is fundamentally incorrect.  Einstein proved his general theory of relativity many moons ago :)
[06:10] <troy_s> there certainly are designs that don't fit with motifs / contrast / etc... but again, that is all dictated by societal trends.
[06:10] <troy_s> even composition is societally dictated.
[06:11] <troy_s> do your homework before making such profound statements.
[06:14] <msikma> What.
[06:14] <msikma> Are you even a designer?
[06:14] <msikma> Yes, there ARE bad designs. There ARE things that "are" ugly.
[06:14] <troy_s> msikma:  careful...
[06:14] <msikma> What do you mean, careful?
[06:14] <troy_s> msikma: what qualifies a designer?
[06:15] <msikma> You're being unreasonable.
[06:15] <troy_s> well if you want to start biting off credentials... i would be careful.
[06:15] <troy_s> no, i am being very logical and open to other people's work.  not all work you will agree with.
[06:15] <troy_s> cubism?  dadaism?  rococo?
[06:15] <msikma> I feel as though you're just protecting the GIMP users which I just explained weren't very good during that splash contest.
[06:15] <msikma> Also, I'm not talking about credentials.
[06:16] <troy_s> i am NOT protecting gimp... i am saying that your notion of what is good and bad is well... based on cultural / societal / and other complex notions.  good and bad are not black and white
[06:16] <msikma> Okay, let me give some examples.
[06:16] <troy_s> some people like it... some don't.
[06:16] <troy_s> your examples won't help.  you are fundamentally incorrect in your vantage.
[06:17] <msikma> Using the "difference clouds" filter in Photoshop to make a cloud sky... good or bad design?
[06:17] <msikma> Using the default green gradient in Macromedia Flash... is that good or bad design?
[06:17] <msikma> Or are these poor examples?
[06:17] <msikma> Is stretching typefaces bad?
[06:17] <troy_s> yes... there are no hard and fast rules period.
[06:18] <msikma> Well then I disagree with you on a fundamental level.
[06:18] <troy_s> ultimately you are asking a far more complicated question than what is good or bad.  is it composition?  is it hue?  is it contrast against the existing structure?  is this designed?
[06:18] <msikma> It's much more simple than that, Troy.
[06:18] <troy_s> is the artist using the 'norm' and trending against it?
[06:18] <troy_s> no its not!!!!
[06:18] <msikma> Yes it is.
[06:18] <troy_s> if it were, you would be pasolini or vertov or michaelangelo.
[06:18] <msikma> There are simply some things a designer is probably better off not doing.
[06:18] <troy_s> no
[06:19] <troy_s> completely incorrect... that is tradition speaking.
[06:19] <msikma> So a designer isn't incorrect when he decides to make a site with a red background and orange text?
[06:19] <msikma> Which hurts the eyes and hamstrings usability.
[06:19] <troy_s> well depends what his goal is... is he trying to play on the lack of distinct contrast etc?
[06:19] <troy_s> does it hurt eyes?  or is it a cultural 'norm' currently in advertising?
[06:19] <msikma> No, let's say that it's for a client. Say... a hosting provider.
[06:20] <msikma> He's making a site for a hosting provider. He uses a full red #ff0000 background with orange #ff0066 text.
[06:20] <troy_s> let's say for a bloody real world application... the medium becomes part of the message.  there are NO hard and fast rules.  in 1950 it would have been absolutely RIDICULOUS to use a swoosh instead of a name.
[06:20] <troy_s> its far more complicated than those hard and fast finite rules that you are cleaving to.
[06:20] <troy_s> far more.
[06:21] <msikma> That's nonsense.
[06:21] <troy_s> notice how the logos on cars
[06:21] <troy_s> are gradually getting bigger again?
[06:21] <troy_s> do your homework
[06:21] <msikma> Do my homework?
[06:21] <msikma> Stop looking down on me.
[06:21] <troy_s> yes do your homework;
[06:22] <msikma> First you look down on me for using Flash (at WORK). Then you disagree with me on Photoshop. And now you're saying that I'm fundamentally flawed in basic design ideas.
[06:22] <msikma> Do you even _want_ me to contribute to Ubuntu-art or are you just looking for an oppertunity to bully me out of it?
[06:24] <troy_s> anyways, it was a fun discussion.  i must go spend some time with my daughter.  don't take things so personally.
[06:24] <msikma> No, you should apologize to me.
[06:24] <troy_s> i am not bullying... i am asking you to try and expand your views on the world just ever so slightly...
[06:24] <troy_s> take care msikma.
[06:24] <msikma> You definitely should apologize.
[06:24] <msikma> I really would want you to. If you don't, then I don't want to work with you anymore.
[06:35] <troy_s> don't be so juvenile.  creative debates are common.  i encourage you to look to art history a bit and do your homework though.  that is not an insult... just a viable option.
[06:43] <msikma> That's not what I mean. But you'll read what I do mean in the next mail I'm sending to the list right now.
[07:00] <troy_s> laf.
[07:00] <troy_s> ok...
[07:06] <msikma> By saying "laf", I guess you find it laughable that people have feelings. That's okay. I hope that you will at least respect my request for some basic decency.
[07:09] <troy_s> listen.  if this is a critical moment, then i certainly am willing to apologize for attempting to have you think a little 'outside the box'.
[07:09] <troy_s> i intend you no personal attack, etc...
[07:09] <troy_s> i strictly was trying to state that are is darn complicated.
[07:09] <troy_s> (as a paraphrase)
[07:10] <troy_s> i never once said you were stupid or anything like that...
[07:10] <troy_s> (as quoted)
[07:10] <troy_s> but alas, you can read the log.
[07:11] <troy_s> you also need to appreciate that people in the open source movement tend to have philosophical vantages that might seem alien to you.
[07:11] <troy_s> peace.
[10:33] <bersace> msikma: did i miss something about proprietary software here ?
[10:35] <troy_s> how you doing bersace?
[10:35] <bersace> fine
[10:36] <bersace> troy_s: when do we do that wiki migration ?
[10:37] <bersace> troy_s: you know i'm also working on gnome-scanning as Google SoC project
[10:37] <bersace> so i have to spend more time on that than ubuntu-art
[10:38] <bersace> i.e. work on gnome-scanning, free time on ubuntu-art
[10:40] <troy_s> SoC summer of code?
[10:40] <troy_s> bersace:  let everyone chime in on the potential via the mailing list... then do it... i would probably try to do it off your root page to make sure that all the links work before updating the main one.
[10:41] <bersace> troy_s: you mean creating Artwork/* inside tienneBersac/ before renaming to Artwork/ ?
[10:42] <troy_s> personally, that's what i would do.  so it can get done little bits at a time... it is quite a large effort to organize it all.
[10:42] <troy_s> further, then the existing links all exist and work as well before they get forwarded... with me?
[10:42] <bersace> troy_s: that will be a nightmare to migrate all pages !!!
[10:43] <bersace> we might save link renaming using Self:/PageName
[10:43] <bersace> but i think that might increase the work nameing and check
[10:44] <bersace> see you later