[07:34] <Madpilot> hi all
[08:04] <nixternal> hey Madpilot
[08:04] <Madpilot> hi nix
[08:05] <nixternal> so whats new in the docs world tonight?
[08:05] <Madpilot> not much. 
[08:05] <Madpilot> I had a great seafood dinner earlier, though :)
[08:06] <nixternal> sounds good..i had steak on the grill and bunch of other stuff on the grill
[08:06] <nixternal> and some hacker pschors
[08:06] <nixternal> mmm mmm good
[08:10] <Madpilot> we had shrimp & avocado, then raw oysters, then crab... excellent stuff
[08:11] <nixternal> oh ya..that definately sound good
[08:11] <nixternal> mmm crab
[08:11] <nixternal> i used to catch them fresh daily when i lived in maryland
[11:48] <Madpilot> file under CategoryCrackSmoking: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OnlyOneGnomePanel 
[11:48] <Madpilot> ;)
[01:05] <matthewrevell> Does anyone have a link to sign up to the Fridge editors mailing list?
[01:37] <mdke> matthewrevell: it's not a public mailing list, you can't sign up at the moment
[01:41] <matthewrevell> mdke: I was on it when it first launched but unsubscribed while I was moving mail accounts. Just trying to resubscribe :)
[01:41] <matthewrevell> Anyway, found it now :)
[01:41] <mdke> eh?
[01:41] <mdke> are you sure it's public?
[01:41] <mdke> it has been made pretty clear that it isn't
[01:41] <matthewrevell> I'm not saying it's public, I'm just saying that Jdub put me on the list when it launched.
[01:42] <matthewrevell> And all I wanted to do was resubscribe.
[01:42] <mdke> ah, I see
[01:42] <matthewrevell> Anyway, I'm back on it now, so no sorted :)
[01:43] <mdke> well, if you can subscribe without approval, that means it's public, right?
[01:43] <matthewrevell> According to the mail I got, my subscription is subject to approval, so I'm pretty certain it remains private.
[01:44] <mdke> ah, ic
[01:45] <mdke> good plan
[01:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, ping?
[01:56] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: ploink
[01:56] <Kamping_Kaiser> hope your not editing the page OneGnomePanel, becaouse im' about to...
[01:57] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: I saw the number of comments and gave up...
[01:57] <Kamping_Kaiser> heh. i'm just adding a few links to the bottom... cool.
[01:57] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: If Ubuntu switches to one gnome panel, I'll switch to two Ubuntus or something :)
[01:58] <Kamping_Kaiser> i hate the idea in general - i'm just going to link to the thread on gnome-usability about it, and my answer
[02:00] <jenda> Exactly... umm... I suppose there's no point in further debating why 'windows does it' is no argument in my eyes...
[02:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2006-May/msg00095.html was my responce to the list
[02:03] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: I'll be sure to read it in a while... meeting now...
[02:03] <Kamping_Kaiser> yep, np
[02:47] <jsgotangco> good evening
[02:52] <pygi> hey jsgotangco 
[03:21] <jenda> Kamping_Kaiser: very agreed there.
[03:22] <jenda> hey, what's the resource recommended by Ubuntu instead of the ubuntuguide.org? help.ubuntu.com?
[03:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> :) i was having a lucid moment
[03:22] <jjesse> jenda: yes
[03:22] <Kamping_Kaiser> afaik yes
[03:22] <jjesse> that is where the official documents are kept
[03:22] <jenda> thx
[03:24] <jenda> And... how's it with translations of that?
[03:24] <jjesse> jenda: you'll have to ask mdke, but i think its like help.ubuntu.com/countrycode
[03:24] <jjesse> for the translation that is available
[03:25] <jenda> I see... and if i wanted to translate... I'd save the page, translate... then send to mdke, I guess?
[03:26] <jenda> hmm... the hierarchic structure makes it a little more difficult.
[03:26] <Kamping_Kaiser> jenda, thats rather ineligent. i would suspect theres a better way
[03:26] <jenda> *hope
[03:27] <Kamping_Kaiser> yeh
[03:28] <jjesse> jenda: i think so, but don't know for sure, 
[03:28] <jenda> Ah well... I guess it's wait-for-mdke time... ;)
[03:30] <Kamping_Kaiser> :)
[03:40] <mdke> jenda: http://help.ubuntu.com/index.cs.html
[03:56] <jenda> mdke: thx
[05:39] <matthewrevell> mpt: Hello
[05:39] <jsgotangco> another matt!
[05:40] <mpt> hey hey hey
[05:40] <matthewrevell> :)
[05:41] <mpt> There are rocking things happening with yelp
[05:42] <jsgotangco> yes
[05:43] <mpt> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341797
[05:43] <Ubugtu> Gnome bug 341797 in Search "Ignore stop words when generating search results" [Enhancement,New]  
[05:44] <mpt> So for Edgy, I think it's quite feasible for the UDP to say "let's take the 50 most common searches on X and make sure they produce superb results"
[05:44] <matthewrevell> Excellent.
[05:44] <mpt> where X might be questions in the Ubuntu forums, or #ubuntu, or maybe even yelp itself
[05:44] <matthewrevell> Planted search results, then?
[05:45] <jsgotangco> nice!
[05:45] <mpt> matthewrevell, not really, but hopefully an equivalent of <meta name="keywords">
[05:46] <matthewrevell> Ah, I see. Sounds good.
[05:46] <mdke> both for beagle and non-beagle searches?
[05:46] <mpt> sure
[05:47] <mpt> Will Edgy include Beagle?
[05:47] <mdke> nice
[05:47] <mdke> guess it might yeah
[05:47] <mdke> the yelp search can be with or without
[05:47] <mdke> without being rebuit
[05:48] <mdke> so if you have beagle, it uses it, if not, it doesn't
[05:49] <jsgotangco> would be nice if it can all be done in deskbar :/
[05:52] <mpt> mdke, e.g., in that "Dapper" thing :-)
[05:53] <mdke> mpt: hmm?
[05:56] <mpt> mdke, yelp in Dapper has non-beagle search
[05:56] <mdke> mpt: or beagle search, if you install beagle
[05:56] <mpt> which I (think I) haven't
[05:56] <mdke> right yeah
[05:56] <mdke> I mean, yelp is built with beagle support
[05:57] <mdke> so, here's a crazy idea.
[05:57] <mpt> matthewrevell, thanks for pointing out my curmudgeonliness in public, I do need reminding every so often :-)
[05:58] <matthewrevell> mpt: Oh, did I say something in response to your letter on LugRadio?
[05:58] <mpt> well, one of you did
[05:58] <matthewrevell> mpt: Ah yes, Stuart did :)
[05:58] <mdke> matthewrevell: it's kinda difficult to know who is who
[05:58] <matthewrevell> mpt: I'm not sure what he said, I was just astounded to hear him admit he was wrong :)
[05:59] <mdke> we could ditch the yelp table of contents, and make our own. On the negative side, it would require us wholly abandoning all the categories and links to the documents provided. These would be counteracted by the fact that (a) the documents are available from About->Help in each individual program (except the man/info pages), and (b) you can get them via the search. On the plus side, it would mean that we could have a front page which is actually helpful
[06:00] <mdke> discuss
[06:02] <mdke> the alternative would be waiting to see if upstream improves the categorisation system for 2.16
[06:02] <matthewrevell> mdke: There's no half-way house, then?
[06:02] <mdke> matthewrevell: no, I can't think of one
[06:02] <jsgotangco> i don't see that changing very much soon
[06:02] <matthewrevell> mdke: Sorry, I don't know the inner workings of yelp.
[06:03] <jsgotangco> there's so much cruft on the docs 
[06:03] <matthewrevell> I'll go read up on Yelp.
[06:03] <mdke> jsgotangco: they are looking to improve things, but drastic change will need to wait until at least 2.18
[06:03] <jsgotangco> 2.18 is good
[06:03] <mdke> matthewrevell: a _female_ scottish accent, to distinguish you from whoever takes on the male scottish accent
[06:04] <mdke> matthewrevell: I don't think there is much to read up on, tbh
[06:04] <mpt> mdke, +1 on a custom front page
[06:04] <matthewrevell> mdke: That's me, usually :)
[06:04] <mdke> ok, someone else gets the girly voice
[06:04] <matthewrevell> mdke: I have to admit that I've rarely used Yelp.
[06:04] <mpt> Burying it in a menu unhelpfully called "System" doesn't help
[06:04] <jsgotangco> i dont blame ya
[06:05] <mpt> And putting it alongside half a dozen other possible sources of answers to your question doesn't help either

[06:05] <matthewrevell> This is a terrible admission to make in the ubuntu-doc channel
[06:05] <matthewrevell> but the first thing I do on a new install is remove the lifering from the top bar
[06:06] <mdke> matthewrevell: heh, that's why it was removed from default installs for 6.06
[06:06] <jsgotangco> we don't have the lifering by default now
[06:06] <mdke> shame though
[06:06] <jsgotangco> we get 4 more in return though!
[06:06] <jsgotangco> =D
[06:06] <joachim-n> hi
[06:06] <joachim-n> yelp search doesn't work for me in Dapper, by the way
[06:07] <matthewrevell> Ach, gotta drive home, catch you all later
[06:07] <mdke> joachim-n: works ok here. Did you file a bug?
[06:07] <joachim-n> can you guys file bugs on the cruft? I'll see what I can do
[06:07] <jsgotangco> works here too
[06:07] <jsgotangco> sure
[06:07] <joachim-n> not yet, actually. In Launchpad or gnome bugzilla though?
[06:07] <mdke> joachim-n: it's not that, the problem is that the whole categorisation system sucks, as you know
[06:08] <joachim-n> indeed
[06:08] <mdke> joachim-n: either is fine. launchpad works
[06:08] <joachim-n> I had a thought about yelp -- I'd really like it to automagically merge our desktop guide with the Ubuntu one
[06:08] <joachim-n> since they don't have much overlap
[06:08] <jsgotangco> is it more with scrollkepper rather than yelp making the categorisation suck?
[06:08] <joachim-n> & I think the long-term to go to smaller documents would help with that
[06:08] <mdke> how could that happen automatically?
[06:08] <joachim-n> yeah, a lot of it is scrollkeeper
[06:09] <joachim-n> well, instead of a massive user guide document, you have many small topics, each a single file
[06:09] <joachim-n> a contents page becomes a list of links to lots of topics
[06:09] <joachim-n> and yelp magically should know how to navigate you based on that
[06:09] <joachim-n> (this is all pie in the sky stuff)
[06:09] <mdke> right, but the desktop guide would still have to link to the upstream topics, it can't happen automatically
[06:10] <joachim-n> then Ubuntu docs could create a contents page that picks out the GNOME topics, and also yours
[06:10] <mdke> the reason we don't link to the upstream topics right now is that the desktop guide gets published outside the help system
[06:10] <joachim-n> yeah... I want to find a way to do that :)
[06:10] <mdke> on the website etc
[06:10] <joachim-n> well, you can stick the upstream topics on your website :) they're GFDL after all
[06:11] <mdke> that's true, but we'd need to patch them
[06:11] <joachim-n> anyway, for all this to happen we have to hit Shaun with the Project Mallard stick
[06:11] <mdke> no, not necessarily
[06:11] <mdke> it can be done in the current system
[06:11] <mdke> but it's a lot of work
[06:11] <joachim-n> yeah
[06:12] <mdke> and you guys would need to have a string freeze
[06:12] <mdke> so that the patching, translating and integration work could happen after that
[06:12] <jsgotangco> really i think its scrollkeeper that thing is reliable but so ancient with how things are indexed
[06:13] <joachim-n> the integration should be automatic. all done with xml includes
[06:13] <mpt> mdke, tell me about doing it with the current system
[06:13] <mdke> well, the categories are certainly horrendous
[06:13] <mpt> how would that work?
[06:13] <mdke> mpt: well, say for the sake of argument we had  the desktop guide as the front page of yelp
[06:14] <mdke> inside that the sections could easily link to the gnome user guide, as appropriate
[06:14] <mdke> we'd have to add links, patch the gnome docs to make them work with the Ubuntu changes to stuff, and try and ensure that we could still have translation working nicely
[06:15] <mpt> ah
[06:15] <mpt> bbl, lunch
[06:17] <jsgotangco> wow
[06:17] <jsgotangco> that looks...hard
[06:17] <mdke> well, adding the links is the easy bit
[06:17] <jsgotangco> not to mention there are like a hundred more help pages that might not even relate to ubuntu-docs
[06:18] <jsgotangco> like the scrollkeeper and zenity manual for instance
[06:18] <mdke> I think the hardest bit would be getting everything on the website, especially for the translations
[06:18] <mdke> jsgotangco: yeah, we'd have to ditch them entirely, leaving them available only from search
[06:18] <jsgotangco> the nice thing is that we have updated a11y documentation as well from upstream
[06:19] <jsgotangco> (or is it updated i wonder)
[06:19] <mdke> yes, that is nice. Although not inconsistent with what I was talking about, that could be linked
[06:22] <mdke> mpt: ideally in fact rather than having the desktop guide as the front page, we'd create our own index document(s) pointing to non-overlapping stuff
[06:24] <mdke> one day, that could potentially be identical to the wiki index page. But that will depend on (a) good processes for QA of community docs, and (b) the moin<->docbook cleverness
[06:43] <mdke> mpt: the other thing of course is that we would probably have to kick into touch the idea of developing a printable book, or alternatively maintain both systems at the same time
[07:18] <mpt> mdke, sure, on-screen help and books are very different things
[07:19] <mpt> different paragraph styles, different structure
[07:20] <mdke> mpt: yes, Im not sure the team would be happy with giving up writing printable guides though
[07:20] <LaserJock> :'(
[07:20] <mpt> Not to discourage anyone from writing a book if they want to do that, but anyone can do that at any time, whereas Ubuntu should only ever have a single help system
[07:20] <mpt> If you want to write books go to town, write as many as you want
[07:21] <mdke> we might be able to do both, we'll have to think about it
[07:21] <mdke> bbl
[07:21] <LaserJock> well, in the case of the Packaging Guide there were several people who wanted a print copy of the Guide, not necessarily a book, it you know what I mean
[07:22] <jjesse> printed copies would be through lulu
[07:22] <jjesse> ] correct?
[07:23] <LaserJock> I'm not sure what mdke and mpt are kicking around (just skimmed the backlog) but we have all the guides on lulu.com now
[07:24] <jjesse> yeah i couldn't figure it out either.... but let me tell you getting a book pulbished is a long drawn out process
[07:24] <jjesse> like i just got an email that the kubuntu chapter for the book has its screenshots all messed up
[07:24] <jjesse> again :(
[07:59] <mdke> LaserJock: the packaging guide is the sort of thing that could easily remain in book form
[08:00] <LaserJock> were you talking about merging upstream docs with the UG ?
[08:00] <mdke> I'll write up a proposal, and we can talk about it when it's more obvious what it might look like
[08:00] <mdke> LaserJock: more or less... 
[08:00] <LaserJock> heh, seems like it would be pretty tough
[08:00] <mdke> my idea would be to divide up our books and mix in the upstream docs
[08:01] <jjesse> would that include doing the same for kubuntu docs?
[08:02] <mdke> jjesse: in theory it would be doable for kubuntu docs, although I'm not convinced there are sufficient contributors to do something so ambitious
[08:02] <jjesse> grin i agree there are not a lot of contribturos yet :)
[08:03] <mdke> ok, so here would be a potential way to present the front page of yelp: http://pastebin.com/704741
[08:04] <mdke> that has been done on the top of my head while on the train so obviously it is really rough
[08:06] <mdke> brb
[08:25] <mdke> mpt, LaserJock: I've started a braindump spec here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne
[08:37] <jjesse> when did we discuss publishing books?  are these books different then the lulu.com ones?
[08:39] <mdke> jjesse: by publishing books, I mean what we currently do
[08:39] <mdke> i.e. publishing books in the distribution, on the website, and on lulu
[08:40] <jjesse> ah i got a little confused
[08:41] <mdke> i follow you
[08:41] <mdke> I meant "book" in the docbook sense ;)
[08:41] <jjesse> i thought of book as in go to barnes and noble and buy a book
[08:42] <mdke> yeah
[08:42] <mdke> or lulu.com :D
[08:44] <mpt> mdke, remember https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/Contents ? :-)
[08:44] <mdke> mpt: no, looking. Presumably it's similar?
[08:45] <mpt> yep
[08:49] <mpt> ... sink slowly into the Mediterranean?
[08:49] <LaserJock> hehe
[08:56] <LaserJock> hehe
[08:56] <mgalvin> :)
[09:28] <LaserJock> I thought we weren't doing ubiquity documentation because it already had documentation
[09:32] <LaserJock> mdke: I like you layout idea
[09:37] <LaserJock> I was just thinking that it might be better to get out of the "Guide" mentality a little bit
[09:37] <LaserJock> maybe a more holistic approach, which is what I think you did
[09:38] <mpt> hooray
[09:38] <LaserJock> hehe, what does mpt hate, "guide", "section", something else I think
[09:40] <LaserJock> I think that layout would be a whole lot nicer for users
[09:40] <mdke> me too
[09:41] <LaserJock> I've been thinking about FAQs and the whole Q&A layout
[09:42] <LaserJock> because I installed ubuntu on my laptop at home the other day in preperation for Paris
[09:42] <mpt> LaserJock, "guide", "documentation", and "this section"
[09:42] <LaserJock> ah documentation
[09:42] <LaserJock> to be honest, I found the DG pretty unhelpful
[09:43] <LaserJock> I know that I'm not the average user
[09:43] <mpt> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-April/005889.html
[09:45] <LaserJock> but it really didn't seem easy to find info when if I knew what I wanted to find
[09:45] <LaserJock> it reads well for an intro to Ubuntu
[09:46] <LaserJock> but it isn't terribly good as a "How do I ..."
[09:47] <LaserJock> what I was thinking about was what if we added a FAQ ("Common Questions" maybe) that would like to the appropiate section in the other docs
[09:48] <LaserJock> does that sound like a dumb idea?
[09:50] <mdke> I'm not terribly keen on FAQs
[09:51] <mdke> but i dunno
[09:51] <LaserJock> I know you aren't :-)
[09:51] <LaserJock> but I just gave up on DG and used the wiki
[09:52] <LaserJock> and got a whole lot more useful info
[09:52] <LaserJock> which was frustrating because I know how much work the DG was and that it is a well written doc
[09:52] <mdke> could that be because the answer wasn't in the DG?
[09:52] <mdke> or it was, but was hard to find?
[09:53] <jjesse> for me the questions i need help on won't be found on the DG, but on the wiki
[09:53] <jjesse> for example: How to install VMWare is not covered by the desktop guide and shouldn't be
[09:53] <LaserJock> mdke: the problem is I don't know, there isn't a TOC, index or anythin
[09:54] <LaserJock> jjesse: why shouldn't that be in the DG?
[09:54] <mdke> LaserJock: well, there are, but they are not very deep. But I wanted to know whether the answer was in the DG at all
[09:55] <jjesse> LaserJock: because if you add help entries for every single program into the DG then you will have a totally unmanagable book
[09:55] <jjesse> DG should be for common problems and to be honest VMWare is not a common problem
[09:56] <LaserJock> jjesse: makes sense, how do we know what *is* a common problem though?
[09:56] <mdke> right, but moving to an article based system would mean that this sort of documentation could be included
[09:56] <LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I can't remember what is was that I was looking for, but I think perhaps it wasn't in there
[09:57] <LaserJock> mdke: the HTML is easier than yelp because you get 1 more level
[09:57] <mdke> yes, that's right
[09:57] <LaserJock> mdke: in yelp, for Common Tasks all I get is Music, Video, Internet, etc. but I have no idea what they cover
[09:58] <LaserJock> so there isn't an easy way for me to see if the DG covers it or not, I suppose the search function might work, but that isn't doc specific is it?
[09:58] <mdke> LaserJock: well, in that case the names are quite accurate indications, no?
[09:58] <LaserJock> yes and no
[09:59] <LaserJock> I don't want to have to read through all of the Music section to see what things are covered
[09:59] <mdke> right yeah
[09:59] <LaserJock> that's why I say it is a nice read
[10:00] <LaserJock> but for somebody wan't to just "pop" into one particular section it is difficult
[10:00] <LaserJock> that's where maybe a FAQ style thing that would then link to the right sections would be nice
[10:01] <mdke> or, modularising the help system a lot more
[10:01] <LaserJock> so you have the nice read for people who are new to Ubuntu/Linux and want to learn all this things
[10:01] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:01] <LaserJock> that would work too, except it is nice for new users to get the flow of the DG
[10:21] <nixternal> what a nice day today
[10:21] <jjesse> grin tell me about it, been hard to be at work all day :(
[10:21] <nixternal> i actually for the first time in my life watched futbol, not the typical fall football im used to...and i actually got into it...my x-wife would be amazed
[10:22] <nixternal> i mowed the lawn today, watered it, planted some new vegetables, flowers, laid down some new mulch
[10:22] <nixternal> i love contracting ;)
[10:23] <nixternal> oh...and every single one of my stocks are down today
[10:23] <LaserJock> hmm
[10:24] <LaserJock> I dug trenches for a new sprinkler system last night
[10:24] <nixternal> i picked up some LEXR shares 5 minutes ago...now i hope they go up a little
[10:24] <nixternal> LaserJock: i would love to do that..but here in the chicagoland area, my yard isn't big enough for that ;)
[10:24] <LaserJock> ugg, I wish mine was small sometimes
[10:24] <nixternal> hehe
[10:24] <nixternal> trade ya
[10:24] <LaserJock> I'm doing lawn on a 75'x30' section
[10:25] <nixternal> i want to do some full blown landscaping, but the size of my yard, it would look retarded
[10:25] <nixternal> thats about my entire property line
[10:26] <nixternal> i think it might be time to get back to work full time...because day trading hasn't been nice to me lately
[10:27] <nixternal> actually, it hasn't been really nice to me at all...i have friends who sit at home doing this stuff and are millionaires...i can't even make a freakin' dollar today
[11:16] <mdke> matthewrevell: still around?
[11:23] <Burgwork> LaserJock, you got mail!
[11:36] <LaserJock> yep
[11:37] <LaserJock> bah, I went to eat lucnch
[11:37] <LaserJock> and read something interesting
[11:37] <LaserJock> so I picked up a InfoWorld magazine that was in the lounge
[11:37] <LaserJock> and read a story about "What would happen in Microsft vanished"
[11:38] <LaserJock> the conclusion was:
[11:38] <LaserJock> if MS didn't exist we would have to invent it
[11:38] <LaserJock> becuase it is a standard (albeit a bad one)
[11:38] <LaserJock> and it has better security response than Apple or Linux
[11:42] <LaserJock> Burgwork: although he sent me a .deb :(
[11:44] <Burgwork> LaserJock, noticed taht
[11:44] <Burgwork> LaserJock, bitch at him
[11:44] <LaserJock> Burgwork: "
[11:44] <LaserJock> "I want tarballs, dammit"
[11:44] <LaserJock> ;-)
[11:46] <LaserJock> mdke: just a little while longer, and the torture will end
[11:47] <mdke> it's not the secrecy, but the public secrecy that has caused me to get all samurai on yo ass
[11:47] <LaserJock> yeah, but what's the fun of having a secret if nobody knows about it ;-)
[11:48] <Burgwork> mdke, all about building excitment
[11:48] <Burgwork> plus I am too lazy to /query
[11:48] <mdke> yeah
[11:49] <mdke> well, I slay lazy people too
[11:49] <Burgwork> indeed
[11:49] <LaserJock> I *did* want to meet mdke in person, but now I'm not so sure
[11:50] <LaserJock> at least I'll need to make sure his cutlery is safely put away
[11:50] <mdke> heh
[11:51] <mdke> robotgeek: just dealing with someone in #ubuntu-it who has used easy ubuntu and has a sources.list which contains 5.10, even though he was originally using 6.06. Unsurprisingly, his system is not in a good state
[11:51] <mgalvin> ah crap, i just realized i didn't drop mdke's name with the lulu stuff in UWN
[11:51] <Burgwork> LaserJock, not sure I would call a samurai sword cutlery myself
[11:52] <LaserJock> mgalvin: tsk, tsk
[11:52] <mdke> next time
[11:52] <mgalvin> indeed!
[11:55] <mdke> mgalvin: oh wait, the lulu stuff was there?
[11:55] <mgalvin> yea in issue 2
[11:55] <mdke> oh right, who gives a damn then, nice
[11:56] <mgalvin> at least i linked to your email about it
[11:56] <mdke> you don't need to drop my name in, as long as Lulu is there, that's great
[11:57] <LaserJock> but the MdkeIsAGod crowd might be bummed out ;-)
[11:57] <mdke> my mum?
[11:57] <mdke> she'll be fine
[11:58] <LaserJock> not just mum