[05:29] <Eleaf> yar mate
[05:29] <Eleaf> I shall part, mate'.
[08:27] <juantao> pardon me, can you tell me when the community council meets next ?
[08:48] <jenda> juantao: not announced yet. Should be this week, I think.
[08:49] <jenda> I'm looking forward to that too ;)
[04:43] <juantao> Hello, I've applied for Ubuntu membership and want to participate in the next meeting of the Community Council. Would someone be kind enough to email me the meeting time? Thanks: info AT computerdropoff.org
[04:44] <bluekuja> juantao: see the cc meetingagenda for it, when the time will be decided that page will be updated
[04:46] <juantao> got it, thank you.
[04:47] <jenda> indeed :) I'm lurking and waiting for the next CC meeting as well.
[05:02] <Spec> I always miss them (assuming they take place :p)
[05:08] <rikai|ddr> Spec: nah, its a conspiracy to drive you mad!
[06:09] <aseigo> Riddell: ping?
[06:10] <Riddell> hi aseigo, 1 hour to go
[06:11] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[06:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[06:12] <aseigo> Riddell: ok... so i'm early, good =) the reminder just popped up on my desktop and i dismissed it before checking if i set it to go off an hour early (what i usually do =) or right on time
[06:12] <aseigo> Riddell: i suppose i could've just checked my calendar =P
[06:12] <aseigo> jenda: the end of the world.
[06:12] <aseigo> jenda: prepare now.
[06:13] <jenda> Oh no!!!
[06:13] <jenda> Really? Just as I was beginning to like it...
[06:13] <aseigo> heh =)
[06:13] <aseigo> it's ok. we're replacing it with a better model.
[06:13] <aseigo> you won't notice a thing save for an uptick in contentment
[06:13] <jenda> OK, but will I be implemented?
[06:14] <aseigo> up to you. it's an opt-in sort of thing
[06:14] <jenda> I guess the last statement implies it in a way... unless a feature is more content when obsolete...
[06:30] <rikai> ...
[06:46] <ervin> hello
[06:47] <jenda> hello ervin
[06:52] <aseigo> ervin: yo dude
[06:52] <aseigo> sebas: howdy
[06:53] <sebas> hidiho aseigerino
[06:54] <aseigo> sebas: you're a better man than i
[06:54] <mornfall> EHLO mornfall.net
[06:54] <mornfall> :] 
[06:55] <sebas> aseigo: Good to know, based on which metrics? ;-)
[06:55] <sebas> Moin mornfall 
[06:55] <aseigo> sebas: remembering without reminders flashing in the middle of your screen ;)
[06:55] <aseigo> sebas: and probably many others. i'm not a hard act to beat, i'm afraid.
[06:56] <aseigo> it's like leaping over midgets
[06:56] <sebas> pastasalad made it possible
[06:56] <sebas> aseigo: Heh, I guess you'd win a karaoke match every time
[06:57] <sebas> LoL Sime|3-1 :D
[06:57] <aseigo> well, there are -some- things that i'm less midgetlike in than others i suppose =)
[06:57] <ogra> @schedule berlin
[06:57] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[06:58] <Sime> hi all
[06:59] <mornfall> so, i am yours
[06:59] <sebas> Moin dfaure 
[07:00] <dfaure> hi
[07:00] <ervin> hey dfaure 
[07:00] <el> hey
[07:00] <mornfall> 'lo
[07:00] <Riddell> ervin, el, Sime, sebas, kwwii, aseigo and mornfall should be everyone
[07:00] <sebas> el!
[07:00] <el> sebas!
[07:00] <el> :)
[07:00] <ervin> hello el =)
[07:00] <el> hehe, i've been here waiting for you for 2 hours already
[07:00] <el> hi ervin :)
[07:00] <sebas> Welcome to UTC el ;-)
[07:00] <Riddell> mdz wanted a reminder too
[07:01] <el> not because i didn't know when it starts, sebas ;-)
[07:01] <Riddell> so, has everyone booked travel?
[07:01] <sebas> el: Ah, bummer. 
[07:01] <el> jupp
[07:01] <ervin> yep
[07:01] <sebas> Positive.
[07:01] <ogra> Riddell, would be nice if your meetings would show up on the fridge ...
[07:01] <kwwii> I have, now we should just fight over who shares rooms :-)
[07:01] <Sime> sebas: are you going to paris? and when?
[07:01] <mornfall> hopefully :-) ... although i don't know where i am supposed to get tickets (agent response pending)
[07:02] <ervin> how many people per room?
[07:02] <aseigo> dammit.. sorry.. bRb
[07:02] <sebas> Sime: On sunday prior to the meeting, via Rotterdam by Thalis
[07:02] <sebas> Sime: And you?
[07:02] <Riddell> mornfall: when did you talk to the travel agent?#
[07:02] <Sime> sebas: thursday.
[07:03] <sebas> Aye, I'll have to leave on friday around noon already, have to speak at a conference that weekend
[07:03] <mornfall> Riddell: well, Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:47:11 +0100 is last echo, asking me if i can collect ticket from brno office of CSA, me acking, no response since
[07:03] <Riddell> Sime: this thursday or next thursday?
[07:03] <Sime> Riddell: next.
[07:03] <mornfall> Riddell: i pinged today just in case
[07:04] <jenda> @now Prague
[07:04] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Prague: June 12 2006, 19:04:04 - Next meeting: Edubuntu  in 1 day
[07:04] <jenda> hmm... what is going on now?
[07:04] <Riddell> Sime: cool
[07:04] <Riddell> mornfall: cool
[07:04] <ogra> jenda, i was wondering that too
[07:04] <Riddell> jenda: secret KDE meeting
[07:04] <aseigo> which is -like- the end of the world
[07:04] <aseigo> sorry about tha tpeople
[07:04] <jenda> ah... that's it ;)
[07:05] <sebas> *What* is like to EOW?
[07:05] <mornfall> sebas: secret kde meeting
[07:05] <sebas> s/to/the
[07:05] <aseigo> ha
[07:05] <aseigo> btw, my birthday is on the 18th
[07:05] <mornfall> although secret kde meeting is better
[07:05] <Riddell> so, the summit, you should all know this isn't a conference it's a developers meeting
[07:05] <mornfall> ack
[07:05] <Riddell> the format is mostly sitting around tables in small groups discussing the specs
[07:05] <aseigo> so seeing as i will be travelling to this little ubuntu swuare (sp) instead of staying home and getting properly trashed ... 
[07:06] <Riddell> it's quite strictly timetabled
[07:06] <sebas> aseigo: We'll take care of that trashing then.
[07:06] <aseigo> sebas: brilliant.
[07:06] <mornfall> off the timetable ;-)
[07:06] <ogra> aseigo, its not EOW, but if you rely on the fridge schedule that the room is free it can be a bit annoying if you want ot use the logging facilities here for a spontaneous meeting
[07:06] <sebas> Riddell: Are there schedules available already?
[07:06] <aseigo> Riddell: yeah, i'm quite happy about htat
[07:06] <Riddell> and anyone not up at 09:00 will be in deep trouble
[07:06] <Riddell> sebas: no, not until the day before usually
[07:06] <sebas> And how much room for spontaneous "let's do this *now*" is there?
[07:07] <ervin> Riddell: 09:00 utc or cest? :o)
[07:07] <mornfall> Riddell: 8... am?
[07:07] <sebas> Exactly ervin :-)
[07:07] <Riddell> Paris time
[07:07] <mornfall> err 8
[07:07] <mornfall> 9999 i mean, 9
[07:07] <mornfall> not 8, silly keyboard
[07:07] <ogra> Riddell, anyone not in the room where mark talks at 9:00 will be in deep trouble ... you need to be up earlier ;)
[07:07] <aseigo> Riddell: and by "up" you mean "at the table ready to work" right?
[07:07] <ervin> up at 9am or ready at 9am ? (just to be sure it's clear to everyone)
[07:07] <Riddell> ready at 9am as ogra says
[07:08] <mdz> Riddell: morning; I'm around if I can answer any questions
[07:08] <ogra> aseigo, present ... not looking like sleeping ;)
[07:08] <el> Riddell, where can we see the schedule? 
[07:08] <sebas> What exactly is "deep trouble"?
[07:08] <aseigo> sebas: wet willies
[07:08] <sebas> Sent home with note to parents? 
[07:08] <Riddell> el: daily schedules arn't really ready until the day before
[07:08] <sebas> Ouch.
[07:08] <ogra> sebas, being locked in the cellar with water and bread indeed :)
[07:08] <el> Riddell, ah
[07:08] <dfaure> isn't http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event the scedule?
[07:08] <sebas> Hm, ok. 9 is fine then.
[07:08] <Riddell> dfaure: not for the conference
[07:08] <dfaure> ah ic
[07:08] <ogra> dfaure, not for the paris summit
[07:09] <kwwii> when will the schedule be made and who will make it?
[07:09] <Riddell> don't worry about the early start, these places always have a great breakfast to get you going
[07:09] <kwwii> ah...reading back, every day
[07:09] <ogra> kwwii, the management usually makes the schedule for the next day in the evening
[07:09] <Riddell> kwwii: the schedule is made by the patent pending BoFicator that's built into launchpad
[07:10] <ogra> it gets published in the morning ...
[07:10] <aseigo> Riddell: are the specs to be created from scratch there or are there a set of these we can look at before arriving from which we'll be working?
[07:10] <Riddell> so... the specs
[07:10] <Riddell> here's the ones I've registered https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs
[07:10] <Riddell> the Undefined ones
[07:10] <Riddell> and here's the ones everyone else has registered https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
[07:11] <kwwii> tango?
[07:11] <aseigo> Riddell: and these are all 3.5 based issues correct?
[07:11] <Riddell> aseigo: yes
[07:11] <Riddell> well, maybe not xgl
[07:11] <Riddell> I've no idea what will go into that
[07:12] <ervin> this one looks like the most difficult if we target 3.5 imho
[07:12] <mornfall> is the 4 month schedule plan still in effect?
[07:12] <kwwii> Riddell: what about all the art and themeing? should that go in there as well?
[07:12] <Riddell> you should probably get an account on launchpad and Subscribe Yourself to any specs you want so the BoFicator will timetable you for those discussions
[07:13] <Riddell> kwwii: there's kubuntu-icons, general art (wallpapers etc) hasn't needed a spec before since it's just "use whatever cool stuff turns up"
[07:13] <ervin> does it mean that no new specs will be created during the summit?
[07:13] <aseigo> Riddell: hm... who all will be at the kubuntu tables? e.g. for the tango icon theme thing will holbach be there?
[07:14] <Riddell> aseigo: if you Subscribe Yourself to the spec then the BoFicator will timetable you to be at that discussion
[07:14] <ogra> ervin, specs have to be registered before 
[07:14] <ervin> ok
[07:14] <Riddell> otherwise you can go to whatever table you like
[07:14] <aseigo> Riddell: heh. oh boy. someone's going to try and schedule me? =)
[07:14] <ogra> ervin, the summit is only for discussing them in personal
[07:15] <kwwii> that fact would have been nice to know in advance
[07:15] <sebas> Sounds like little room for new ideas
[07:15] <ervin> what's the average duration of such discussions on a spec?
[07:15] <el> Riddell, i can't see the kubuntu usability spec anywhere you sent me the link to
[07:15] <dfaure> sebas: why? surely one can create a spec even during the meeting
[07:16] <aseigo> Riddell: are the specs usually scheduled in clusters according to topic .. e.g. "tuesday is art day"
[07:16] <ervin> since it's boficated... I suppose it's not very flexible
[07:16] <sebas> I understood one couldn't
[07:16] <ervin> dfaure: ogra disagree with you iiuc
[07:16] <Riddell> ervin: it's BoFicated every evening
[07:16] <Riddell> el: that spec was considered too general, the feeling is we should only have more specific specs
[07:16] <ervin> Riddell: I meant how much time a spec is discussed? 1h, 2h? more?
[07:17] <ogra> ervin, well, i suppose there can be exceptions, but i havent seen that at any conf yet
[07:17] <Riddell> el: so it's superceded with adept-usability, and if there's other areas we need to look at we can do that separately
[07:17] <Riddell> ervin: 1 hour sessions I think
[07:17] <Riddell> ervin: and if you run out time the BoFicator will schedule you another sessions for the next day
[07:17] <Riddell> assuming it can fit you in
[07:17] <mornfall> or maybe in the evening with some beer :-)
[07:17] <ervin> ok
[07:18] <ogra> mornfall, evenings are all free
[07:18] <Riddell> mornfall: towards the end of the week there's less discussions and more time scheduled for people to proofread and even free time
[07:18] <Riddell> so spontanious ideas can happen then
[07:18] <Riddell> and of course there's meal times and evening
[07:19] <mornfall> how much hacking time can i expect to have there? :)
[07:19] <aseigo> Riddell: i do have a question regarding target audience ... is there going to be a general "getting oriented as to what kubuntu's goals are" for those of us who may not be overly familiar with that?
[07:19] <Riddell> mornfall: none
[07:19] <mornfall> in an ideal world, the adept-usability bof would be early on and one near the end where i have (some of it) implemented for review :)
[07:19] <mornfall> Riddell: that's not much
[07:20] <ogra> mornfall, you should prepare your stuff in advance
[07:20] <Riddell> mornfall: obviously uou can subscribe yourself to no BoFs and sit in a corner and hack but the idea is to discuss stuff face to face
[07:20] <eln> .... sorry, kde crashed
[07:20] <Riddell> eln: what did you last see?
[07:20] <eln> frozen, actually
[07:20] <kwwii> that's ok, america is loosing in football as well
[07:20] <aseigo> s,kde,x11,
[07:20] <mornfall> Riddell: well, i did great pair hacking at debconf :)
[07:20] <eln> no answer to my question, Riddell 
[07:20] <aseigo> kwwii: ssh ... i haven't watched that one yet =P
[07:21] <mornfall> Riddell: anyhow, there aren't quite enough BoFs to fill all of the week, now, are there? i don't count those that are completely beyond me
[07:21] <Riddell> eln: http://pastebin.com/704676
[07:21] <aseigo> Riddell: also when would be the best time to find some f-2-f with the canonical people regarding coordination opportunities between kde e.v. and them?
[07:22] <Riddell> aseigo: good question, mdz will that be possible?
[07:22] <eln> Riddell: thanks
[07:22] <eln> Riddell: so if i create some more specific specs, can we still add them?
[07:22] <mornfall> kwwii: with czech republic, yes ;-)
[07:22] <aseigo> Riddell: i'm also curious as to how meal arrangements tend to work (food is always an issue for me ;) and what our broad objectives, if any, are beyond "plan edgy"
[07:23] <eln> Riddell: for example going through the initial setup and making it smooth
[07:23] <Riddell> eln: initial setup of what?
[07:23] <sebas> Additionally for "the Marketing Dude", specs don't seem to work.
[07:23] <eln> Riddell: adept is the second on my list, 
[07:23] <aseigo> el: would that be covered by the default settings spec?
[07:23] <aseigo> eln: would that be covered by the default settings spec?
[07:23] <sebas> I'd try to seek common ground between KDE promotion and Kubuntu promotion, how that fits in current activities ... 
[07:23] <eln> Riddell: you start kubuntu the first time, then want to configure your sound, printer, etc
[07:23] <aseigo> we really do need some "business issue" time
[07:24] <Riddell> sebas: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-marketing
[07:24] <eln> so mostly kcontrol, but with a special regard to those first-time settings
[07:24] <Riddell> eln: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-default-settings-review
[07:24] <sebas> Riddell: That's merely promotion
[07:24] <aseigo> Riddell: if it's just us there for that spec it won't really be accomplishing what we hope and need to
[07:25] <sebas> Marketing goes far beyond that, it's about strategies, target groups, relationships 
[07:25] <mornfall> sebas: fix the spec description then? :)
[07:25] <Riddell> sebas: as mornfall says
[07:25] <mornfall> specs can accomodate lots of things
[07:25] <sebas> Riddell: I'll think about what can be added, wasn't aware of the whole setup 20 minutes ago :-)
[07:25] <Riddell> aseigo: we'll poke sabdfl and management to make sure they're subscribed
[07:25] <aseigo> Riddell: thanks =)
[07:26] <eln> Riddell: not only defaults, also some modifications in kcontrol regarding information architecture and ui
[07:26] <Sime> eln: system-settings you mean?
[07:26] <mornfall> Riddell: are the non-undefined BoFs open for subscription too?
[07:26] <eln> yes, Sime 
[07:26] <dfaure> mornfall: yes
[07:26] <Sime> eln: instead of kcontrol. 
[07:26] <Riddell> mornfall: all the paris ones are https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
[07:26] <eln> hehe, yes, Sime 
[07:27] <aseigo> jenda: preferable, yes
[07:27] <mdz> aseigo: we can schedule in a BOF session to do exactly that
[07:27] <mdz> aseigo: the easiest way to get it done would be to register it as a spec in blueprint and propose it for Paris
[07:27] <kwwii> there would be need of figuring out how to improve the marketing of kubuntu...in several regards it is quite unclear where it is going
[07:27] <mdz> aseigo: we would write up a summary / minutes rather than a spec
[07:28] <Riddell> eln: so a spec to tidy up various kcontrol modules?
[07:28] <ervin> aseigo: didn't see one, but I might have missed it
[07:28] <Sime> aseigo: there is a wine+kde SoC project running right now.
[07:28] <eln> Riddell: yes - especially the ones that are important after first startup
[07:29] <Riddell> eln: sounds good, go ahead and register it
[07:29] <Riddell> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+addspec
[07:29] <eln> Riddell: ok
[07:29] <Riddell> eln: and make sure to add to the meeting
[07:30] <aseigo> mdz: ok ... i believe i have a launchpad account. but i'm nearly innocent when it comes to doing this whole spec thing ... would it make more sense to have someone closer to the marketing group already established within ubuntu to file it?
[07:30] <Riddell> dfaure: it doesn't take into account travel dates, that's done manually
[07:30] <dfaure> :(
[07:30] <mdz> aseigo: Riddell can assist with that
[07:30] <eln> Riddell: to add to which meeting?
[07:31] <Riddell> eln: after you create the spec you need to Add to Meeting and select Paris Summit
[07:31] <eln> ah, ok
[07:31] <eln> thanks
[07:31] <Riddell> any questions?
[07:32] <Riddell> excellent :)
[07:32] <ervin> I suppose a discussion regarding release processes of kubuntu and kde is a no-no?
[07:32] <mornfall> ...
[07:32] <ervin> (how to make them match better, etc.)
[07:33] <ervin> (I guess dfaure would have to be here though)
[07:33] <Riddell> ervin: if you think there's something we can discuss sure
[07:33] <mdz> aseigo: (btw, I was responding to your earlier inquiry about coordination with kde e.v.)
[07:33] <sebas> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMarketing#preview Here's a couple of very rough additions
[07:33] <dfaure> ervin: => friday
[07:33] <aseigo> mdz: yes =)
[07:34] <ervin> Riddell: ok
[07:34] <Riddell> dfaure: what day are you coming?
[07:34] <dfaure> Friday
[07:34] <dfaure> (well I'll be there Thursday evening)
[07:34] <mornfall> so... how can i get an overview of "things i am subscribed to" from launchpad?
[07:34] <highvoltage> is there a meeting atm? i can't see anything in fridge.
[07:34] <Riddell> mornfall: https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs?role=subscriber
[07:35] <Riddell> highvoltage: yes, it's super sekret
[07:35] <ervin> dfaure: well, that's just an idea, you've a better inside view than me to know if it could be useful to discuss this
[07:35] <highvoltage> Riddell: oooh
[07:35] <mornfall> Riddell: hmm, gives bogus list
[07:35] <dfaure> ervin: historically, kde has always "released when it's ready" rather than "when it's best for distribution xyz". That's just common sense, given how many distros there are...
[07:36] <mornfall> aha
[07:36] <mornfall> Riddell: sry, that's your list :] 
[07:36] <mornfall> Riddell: correction: it gives no list
[07:36] <Riddell> mornfall: are you subscribed to any?
[07:36] <sebas> dfaure: Practically, KDE has never missed the planned release date, right?
[07:36] <mornfall> Riddell: sure i am
[07:37] <ervin> dfaure: sure, but that maybe would make sense to go toward a time based release schedule
[07:37] <sebas> OTOH, Ubuntu has fixed release schedules, and Dapper is only 2 months "behind"
[07:37] <dfaure> sebas: it has - so?
[07:37] <sebas> dfaure: The point being that the difference isn't all that big
[07:37] <Riddell> kwwii: tango-icon-theme is an old spec from the last meeting
[07:38] <sebas> And that not being able to release is often a problem of manpower, which can be fixed if there are people with resources who really want it 'ready'.
[07:38] <mornfall> launchpad officially hates me
[07:38] <kwwii> Riddell: I noticed that the ubuntu-artwork peeps are talking about it too, that is why I asked
[07:39] <_dfaure> sebas: sorry, missed your answer if any
[07:39] <kwwii> Riddell: from what I have heard until now, there is very little interest in the community in using it though
[07:39] <Riddell> kwwii: as I remember that's exactly the conclusion that came out of that spec
[07:40] <Riddell> mornfall: you're not subscribed to anything according to https://launchpad.net/people/mornfall/+specs
[07:40] <Riddell> mornfall: you need to click "Subscribe Yourself" and the Subscribe button after that for a spec
[07:41] <mornfall> Riddell: yes, but look at eg. adept-usability: i am in subscriber list there
[07:41] <mornfall> ow!
[07:41] <mornfall> i have two distinct launchpad users
[07:42] <mornfall> with same screen name? interesting :)
[07:42] <Riddell> mornfall: ah, what fun.  somewhere you can ask for those accounts to be merged then
[07:43] <Riddell> aseigo: does the meeting need to talk in private about stuff?
[07:44] <Riddell> hmm, no aseigo 
[07:45] <Riddell> ok, meeting over I guess then
[07:46] <Riddell> aseigo, eln: let me know if you need help creating those specs
[07:46] <Riddell> mornfall: keep poking that travel agent
[07:47] <eln> Riddell: still struggling through it all
[07:47] <Riddell> eln: where are you at?
[07:47] <eln> just created a wiki page based on your kubuntu-usability template
[07:49] <Riddell> I should say we'll also be having short lightning talks each morning, so if you have something cool to talk about (openusability as a random example) there's a space for that
[07:49] <Riddell> as, aseigo_home 
[07:49] <Sime> eln: usability feedback about the extra modules in systemsettings, is also welcome :)
[07:49] <Riddell> eln: do you know mpt, the canonical usability guy?
[07:49] <aseigo> sorry about that. a recent ubuntu kernel update has rendered my wifi unstable. huzzah.
[07:49] <eln> Riddell: that sounds good
[07:50] <eln> Riddell: no, don't know him. 
[07:50] <mornfall> so i have 9 subscribed specs -- which is about it
[07:50] <aseigo> (which means both my ethernet (sky2) and wifi are not rock solid. though wifi is only a couple times a week)
[07:50] <mornfall> Riddell: if you can think of anything besides https://launchpad.net/people/me-mornfall/+specs?role=subscriber that i should look at, please hint :)
[07:51] <mornfall> -1 (8 actually, kubuntu-katapult not paris-scheduled)
[07:51] <eln> Sime: yeah, see how much we get accomplished :)
[07:51] <Riddell> mornfall: looks like plenty
[07:52] <aseigo> Riddell: after i got dumped but before i noticed ;) i asked about whether it makes any sense to look at institutional deployment readyness of kubuntu
[07:52] <aseigo> Riddell: particularly the set up of things such as kiosk profiles and printing 
[07:52] <mornfall> Riddell: that's ~2h a day, using default metric
[07:52] <Riddell> eln: ah, mpt isn't coming to the conference
[07:53] <eln> Riddell: i'll try to contact him beforehand. do you have an email address?
[07:53] <Riddell> eln: https://launchpad.net/people/mpt 
[07:53] <eln> great, thanks
[07:54] <Riddell> aseigo: that sounds quite general
[07:54] <ervin> Riddell: subscribing to 9 specs is too much?
[07:55] <Riddell> aseigo: I've not checked but there may well be a spec for printing
[07:55] <ervin> (wondering on your reply to mornfall)
[07:55] <Riddell> aseigo: shipping with default kiosk profiles would be an intesting spec to have
[07:55] <Riddell> ervin: not too many, not too little
[07:55] <Riddell> take as many as you want
[07:56] <mornfall> so what is the programme, besides spec-based BoFs?
[07:56] <ervin> Riddell: of course, but since you said it average to 1h time slots... it would average to 9h, doesn't look like lot of time for a full week
[07:56] <mornfall> ervin: how long are you staying? till the end?
[07:56] <ervin> yep
[07:56] <ogra> mornfall, falling dead in the evening after 12h speccing discussions and having a big party at the end :)
[07:56] <aseigo> Riddell: ok. more specific: examine kiosk (kiosktool and default profiles available)
[07:57] <Riddell> mornfall: that's about it, if you end up with unscheduled time I'm sure you can fill it with useful stuff easily enough
[07:57] <Riddell> aseigo: cool, do it
[07:57] <ervin> aseigo: ping me if you create this one, I'm interested
[07:57] <aseigo> Riddell: i see there's a printing spec there, though it's specifically about sharing printers ... though i suppose that's the extent of issues right now there
[07:58] <Riddell> aseigo: current printing problems are mostly bugs and packaging issues, you don't need a spec for that
[07:58] <aseigo> Riddell: a spec needs a url?
[07:58] <mornfall> okey, that could be ninth (kiosk)
[07:58] <aseigo> Riddell: or is that optional?
[07:58] <aseigo> Spec: lol
[07:58] <Riddell> aseigo: yes, link to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuMySpec
[07:58] <Spec> a spec needs a url to the wiki
[07:58] <Riddell> then create a page there using the SpecTemplate
[07:58] <Spec> wikipage of that spec, that is
[08:00] <Riddell> hopefully everyone has found https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDeveloperSummitParis
[08:00] <Riddell> which has the directions
[08:01] <aseigo> Riddell: how much info needs to be on that url?
[08:02] <Riddell> aseigo: create the page with the SpecTemplate and put your notes and thoughts at the bottom
[08:02] <Riddell> aseigo: and we use that page to write the spec
[08:03] <Riddell> you may also want to try out gobby/mateedit, we used those a lot at the last conference
[08:04] <aseigo> Riddell: definition status ... braindump or??
[08:04] <Riddell> braindump for now
[08:04] <aseigo> ok
[08:05] <ervin> aseigo, sebas: what about the kubuntu-marketing spec I see none of you subscribed there?
[08:05] <Riddell> that lets the BoFicator know it needs a slot in the timetable for discussion
[08:05] <aseigo> ervin: i haven't subscribed to any specs yet.
[08:05] <sebas> Hm, I still need to grok that launchpad system :-)
[08:05] <kwwii> sebas: you and me both
[08:05] <ervin> ok, I'm subscribing there =)
[08:06] <aseigo> to be honest, i find getting up to speed with this sprocess as a non-kubuntu-developer/canonical-employ to be rather non-trivial
[08:06] <sebas> kwwii: :-)
[08:06] <ervin> not sure I'll be that helpful there, but that's definitely a topic I'd like to work on
[08:06] <ervin> aseigo: agreed
[08:06] <dfaure> aseigo: hmm I didn't really have a problem with it...
[08:06] <mornfall> so what about the room allocation fight someone promised at the start of the meeting? ;-)
[08:06] <ervin> aseigo: non-trivial, but not that difficult either ;)
[08:06] <Riddell> aseigo: that's why you asked for the meeting :)
[08:07] <aseigo> yes, not difficult. just lots of details and customs to learn
[08:07] <aseigo> Riddell: indeed
[08:07] <sebas> Hehehe
[08:07] <mornfall> ervin: dfaure is staying whole week? :)
[08:07] <ervin> mornfall: nope, that's the idea ;)
[08:07] <dfaure> ervin: so, like, coming to the South for most days except thursday evening? :-)
[08:08] <Sime> sebas: you going back on the saturday?
[08:08] <mornfall> :] 
[08:08] <ervin> dfaure: well, better stay at home then :p
[08:08] <sebas> Sime: On friday already
[08:08] <sebas> conference in germany
[08:08] <Sime> sebas: oh
[08:08] <ervin> dfaure: on the other hand you'd know how bad I play ping pong this way ;)
[08:09] <mornfall> see, not that bad :-)
[08:09] <aseigo> Riddell: is this https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-intelligent-menu-entries looking to extend TryExec?
[08:09] <mornfall> rtt ~7 seconds
[08:10] <Riddell> aseigo: I don't know what TryExec does
[08:11] <aseigo> Riddell: looks for the existence of an executable file with the given name / path
[08:11] <aseigo> Riddell: doesn't actually run anything (e.g. to check for return values) or anything though
[08:12] <Riddell> aseigo: it's more than that
[08:13] <Riddell> room allocations I think are being done by New Claire, if you have preferences please contact Claire Newman <claire.newman@canonical.com>
[08:13] <Riddell> I've already confirmed that el is a female for room allocation purposes
[08:13] <ervin> ok, people, who want to share his room with me?
[08:13] <el> Riddell, thanks 
[08:15] <mornfall> ervin: i wouldn't mind i suppose :-)
[08:15] <el> sebas, still there?
[08:15] <mornfall> unless you have another preference
[08:15] <sebas> el: Yes
[08:15] <ervin> oh no! not a goth =)
[08:15] <sebas> El wants to share a room with me? :-)
[08:15] <mornfall> ervin: you could try aseigo in that case ;-)
[08:16] <el> sebas, i'm very interested in the user profiling things from the marketing spec, for usability purposes
[08:16] <sebas> Ow, bummer ;)
[08:16] <kwwii> sebas: no baby, I want you to myself
[08:16] <el> sebas, but less in the other marketing things...
[08:16] <sebas> kwwii: I can do both!
[08:16] <Riddell> aseigo: you may want to say if you're a smoker or not
[08:16] <mornfall> it must be the weather
[08:16] <sebas> el: We should split that up as separate specs then
[08:16] <el> sebas, does it make sense to split that ?
[08:16] <Riddell> I believe they still allow smoking in France
[08:16] <aseigo> Riddell: depends how cute she is? ;)
[08:16] <sebas> el: Yes!
[08:16] <el> hehe, sebas :)
[08:16] <dfaure> Riddell: yes
[08:17] <ervin> Riddell: depends on the hostel
[08:17] <el> ok, i'll do that then, sebas 
[08:17] <sebas> Cool :)
[08:17] <el> now that i'm back at my computer and things go faster again
[08:17] <sebas> Aye, Italy suck, he? ;)
[08:17] <aseigo> Riddell: ist here some place on the wiki or something that we need to register our accomodation desires? i did communicate that i am a non-smoking vegetarian to the canonical people.. is that enough then?
[08:17] <Riddell> aseigo: that's all good then
[08:17] <sebas> It might make sense to split the marketing stuff up even more, promo / marketing as well, thoughy
[08:17] <sebas> -y
[08:18] <mornfall> aseigo: we match in that two aspects ;-) (well, maybe not counting hookah on my side)
[08:18] <Riddell> I need to go out now, any last questions
[08:18] <aseigo> Riddell: aaaah! is there also a network management spec?
[08:18] <ervin> mornfall: you're vegetarian?
[08:18] <mornfall> ervin: *blink* *blink* you didn't know?
[08:18] <ervin> nope...
[08:18] <mornfall> whatever :-)
[08:19] <mornfall> i eat some fish :-)
[08:19] <sebas> How does "eats only vegetarians" influence the room choice?
[08:19] <aseigo> Riddell: e.g. "making network manager useful for kubuntu"?
[08:19] <sebas> So I'd love to share a room with sansiego or mornfall :>
[08:19] <Riddell> aseigo: hmm, I've not seen one
[08:19] <aseigo> Riddell: i don't see it, but that may not mean much ;)
[08:19] <mornfall> me? why me?
[08:19] <aseigo> ok.. i'll add it then
[08:19] <sebas> Strict diet, mornfall. (And kidding)
[08:19] <aseigo> Riddell: that's as important as power management and more important than laptop buttons imho =)
[08:19] <mornfall> sebas: ah :] 
[08:20] <ervin> aseigo: did you add the kiosk one already?
[08:20] <aseigo> ervin: yes
[08:20] <mornfall> kiosk, remind me to register there... and maybe for NM
[08:20] <mornfall> (network)
[08:20] <Riddell> I'm off out now, if you make specs please subscribe me to them with "Subscribe Someone" or e-mail me
[08:20] <mornfall> cya Riddell 
[08:20] <Riddell> thanks everyone, see you in Paris
[08:20] <ervin> aseigo: what's the name?
[08:21] <mornfall> brb
[08:21] <kwwii> see you guys and girls in a week
[08:21] <aseigo> ervin: kubuntu-kiosk-profiles
[08:21] <aseigo> kwwii: see ya
[08:21] <aseigo> Riddell: au revoir
[08:21] <ervin> aseigo: I can't find it in the sprint
[08:21] <aseigo> ervin: https://launchpad.net/people/aseigo/+specs
[08:22] <sebas> Riddell: Thanks, cu
[08:22] <ervin> aseigo: did you add it to the uds-paris sprint? afaik you should or it won't be picked during the summit
[08:22] <aseigo> dammit
[08:22] <kwwii> launchpad is your friend
[08:22] <ervin> aseigo: "add to meeting" I guess
[08:23] <aseigo> ervin: yeah, just did that. 
[08:23] <aseigo> kwwii: a high maintenance one that makes me wait for web pages to load ;)
[08:23] <kwwii> yes!
[08:24] <mornfall> back
[08:24] <kwwii> it has made me learn that every linux company has something like yast
[08:24] <mornfall> ervin: i think it needs to be registered
[08:24] <ervin> mornfall: gni?
[08:25] <kwwii> with that, I am gone...bbl
[08:25] <mornfall> ervin: for UDS
[08:25] <ervin> kwwii: see you
[08:25] <mornfall> ervin: registered and possibly approved
[08:25] <Riddell> ervin: I think it needs to be approve
[08:25] <Riddell> approved
[08:25] <ervin> ok, it explains
[08:26] <Spec> Where's the list of specs for the paris sprint?
[08:26] <aseigo> ervin: did you find it?
[08:26] <aseigo> oh.. bah
[08:26] <aseigo> what does "registered" mean?
[08:27] <ervin> aseigo: it seems you've done everything you could on your side
[08:27] <aseigo> ok =)
[08:28] <Riddell> Spec: https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
[08:29] <Spec> Woohoo, my spec is in the paris sprint :p
[08:29] <ervin> aseigo: are you creating one regarding networking? there's the dialup one that you could find interesting
[08:30] <aseigo> ervin: not quite the same i think.. let me look again
[08:30] <ervin> aseigo: sure, but complementary imho
[08:30] <mornfall> so i can return to java now? :] 
[08:31] <ervin> mornfall: sure, go to hell =)
[08:31] <mornfall> or maybe studying
[08:31] <mornfall> ervin: damn :p
[08:31] <ervin> erm, java I meant
[08:31] <mornfall> Theorem 4. big-step and small-step structured operational semantics are equivalent
[08:31] <aseigo> ervin: i think there are some network-manager related items... and it really isn't kde specific per say.
[08:31] <aseigo> ervin: i think i'm just going to subscribe to those
[08:32] <aseigo> e.g. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-manager-with-wpa-supplicant-config
[08:32] <ervin> aseigo: not listed in paris sprint iiuc
[08:34] <sebas> *virtual_hug*
[08:34] <ervin> aseigo: or I've been confused?
[08:35] <aseigo> ervin: no, you're right
[08:36] <ervin> I'll take another look during the week, and see if I find a network related spec that pleases me
[08:36] <ervin> currently I've found nothing that suits me on this topic
[08:36] <ervin> ok, I'm done for now
[08:36] <ervin> see you later people
[08:37] <mornfall> laters
[08:57] <tunki> Hi everybody
[08:58] <tunki> Is this a good place for answers about xubuntu?
[08:58] <Seveas> no
[08:58] <Seveas> #xubuntu is
[08:58] <tunki> ok thanks
[08:58] <tunki> bye
[09:55] <spacey> boeha
[09:55] <cbx33> @schedule GMT
[09:56] <cbx33> @schedule london
[09:56] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 18:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu
[09:58] <HedgeMage> I'm here, but I'll be in and out... Ihave to check on TT frequently
[10:00] <spacey> @schedule CEST
[10:00] <spacey> :<
[10:00] <spacey> @schedule Amsterdam
[10:00] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[10:00] <HedgeMage> @schedule seattle
[10:01] <spacey> :)
[10:01] <spacey> i'm ready
[10:01] <spacey> can we start :P
[10:01] <HedgeMage> Ubugtu doesn't love me :P
[10:01] <spacey> after that i can go to sleep =P
[10:01] <spacey> i played poker till 3 last night
[10:01] <cbx33> heh
[10:01] <spacey> so i'm still tired =)
[10:01] <HedgeMage> lol
[10:01] <RobinShepheard> hiya all
[10:01] <spacey> great game though
[10:02] <spacey> yeah its just fun, with a drink and friends
[10:02] <cbx33> spacey, yeh
[10:03] <HedgeMage> I'm either really bad at poker, or my kid brother needs to spend time at a casino...  He wipes me out very quickly, but he does that to everyone :P
[10:03] <spacey> also open(source)ed someones eyes today :)
[10:03] <cbx33> nice
[10:03] <RobinShepheard> sad though it sounds I like monopoly, few drinks and a few mates and it is a real good laugh
[10:03] <HedgeMage> spacey: nice :)
[10:03] <spacey> he will probably use an opensource now
[10:03] <cbx33> cool
[10:03] <spacey> instead of let it be custom build :p
[10:04] <spacey> why have it custom build when its already there in better form :)
[10:04] <cbx33> shall we begin?
[10:04] <spacey> also that cost saving of 1100 euro was quite convicing :)
[10:04] <spacey> yeah sure
[10:04] <HedgeMage> oh yeah, I have at least two teachers for us... but one doesn't have a 'net connection.  She lives close to my mom, though, so I think I'm going to have to buy dad a spindle of CDs and make him burn her stuff for me :)
[10:04] <pygi> Ok, welcome everyone to the cookbook meeting :)
[10:04] <spacey> if pygi is ready
[10:04] <pygi> be shhhhhhhhhhh :)
[10:05] <pygi> First of all I would like to congratulate you all, and say my personal thanks to all of you who contributed to the cookbook we made for Dapper
[10:05] <spacey> are we happy with the result?
[10:05] <pygi> Let's make the cookbook even more rocking for Edgy ;)
[10:05] <cbx33> indeed
[10:05] <pygi> Results are here, and in the given deadline, they are more then good
[10:06] <spacey> so what are the plans =)
[10:06] <cbx33> well it's gonna be printed this time :D
[10:06] <RobinShepheard> sweet
[10:06] <pygi> Ok, I hope all of you have given some thoughts about how the edgy cookbook should look like
[10:06] <pygi> Lemme first say my ideas, and then all of you (one by one, in a civilised matter) can express your own ideas
[10:06] <pygi> after ideas are out, we can discuss
[10:07] <cbx33> shall we start alphabetically?
[10:07] <cbx33> :p
[10:07] <pygi> cbx33, perhaps, me first tho :P
[10:07] <cbx33> of course
[10:08] <pygi> Ok, so let's go with things I think should happen  for Edgy cookbook:
[10:08] <pygi> 1. Contributors - we should have set of people in which we can believe they will deliver
[10:08] <spacey> your building up the tension
[10:09] <pygi> 2. Chapters - there will be several chapters, divided in articles
[10:10] <pygi> 3. Publishing - The book will be published by a publisher, and perhaps freely available on web (my duty to take care of that stuff)
[10:10] <pygi> 4. Define colaboration method - Until the thing with publisher is totally setup, access to the repository where we'll store the stuff should be limited to writers
[10:11] <sivang> which meeting is on now?
[10:11] <pygi> 5. If any concerns arise in whatever sense, please inform me and Hedge, and we'll decide together with you on further action
[10:11] <LaserJock> sivang: edubuntu cookbook
[10:12] <pygi> Ok, I have more ideas of content nature, but let's leave it for later
[10:12] <pygi> now, who wanna talk? :)
[10:12] <spacey> about 3.: i think freely available on the web is a must, not a perhaps
[10:12] <pygi> spacey, discussion later :P
[10:12] <spacey> hmm ok
[10:12] <spacey> i want pictures in
[10:13] <spacey> is that a valid point?
[10:13] <pygi> Anyone interested in talking? :)
[10:13] <sivang> LaserJock: thanks
[10:13] <pygi> spacey, indeed, screenshoots
[10:13] <RobinShepheard> I would suggest a reasonable number of screenshots, as it really does make it easier for people who are not sure
[10:13] <spacey> yes and kids working behind a thinclient
[10:13] <spacey> real life pictures as well
[10:14] <spacey> just to make it more playful
[10:14] <cbx33> Can I ask, without creating political problems, why were there 2 cookbooks last time?
[10:14] <RobinShepheard> I would suggest a basic trouble shooting suggestions section as well
[10:14] <spacey> i guess thats mostly my fault :p
[10:14] <pygi> cbx33, There was one which was never finished started long time ago 
[10:14] <spacey> because the first one wasn't really taking off
[10:15] <cbx33> I was confused because the first one had a lot more "written" content
[10:15] <spacey> yes and the content didn't make much sense
[10:16] <pygi> Anyone else wanna speak out what's on his/her mind? :)
[10:16] <LaserJock> I might be bold and suggest a different name
[10:16] <cbx33> if this is going to be printed we need to make sure this is the one and only cookbook :p
[10:16] <pygi> cbx33, it will be
[10:16] <pygi> LaserJock, shoot
[10:16] <cbx33> go on LaserJock 
[10:16] <pygi> HedgeMage, sec, after Laser ;)
[10:17] <LaserJock> Either use "Edubuntu Cookbook" if it is a cookbook style doc (which it doesn't quite seem that way
[10:17] <LaserJock> or something else
[10:17] <spacey> Edubuntu Guide? :P to be orginal
[10:17] <pygi> what's wrong with "How to Cook Edubuntu?" :)
[10:17] <LaserJock> I was going to say that but it is prety over used
[10:18] <pygi> ok, so all of you: Name suggestions?
[10:18] <spacey> Edubuntu Compass
[10:18] <cbx33> Using Edubuntu
[10:18] <HedgeMage> "The Care and Keeping of Efts" :P
[10:18] <cbx33> Edubuntu in the wild
[10:18] <HedgeMage> (so we can totally mislead and confuse everyone)
[10:18] <RobinShepheard> Edubuntu made easy
[10:18] <spacey> Edubuntu for dummies
[10:18] <LaserJock> that's a good one RobinShepheard 
[10:18] <spacey> =P
[10:19] <RobinShepheard> cheers
[10:19] <pygi> Edubuntu behind myst ;)
[10:19] <cbx33> Edubuntu for mere mortals :p
[10:19] <RobinShepheard> edubuntu for people
[10:20] <cbx33> Edubuntu IRL
[10:20] <pygi> Edubuntu Eft ;)
[10:20] <LaserJock> maybe it would be good to as on the ML or do an LP poll
[10:20] <pygi> Anyway, we'll vote for that later
[10:20] <cbx33> nice idea LaserJock 
[10:20] <pygi> indeed LaserJock 
[10:20] <pygi> HedgeMage, your wording? :)
[10:21] <HedgeMage> hrm?
[10:21] <LaserJock> pygi: are your items open for discussion yet? :-0
[10:21] <pygi> you raised hand above, so speak :)
[10:21] <LaserJock> s/:-0/:-)/
[10:21] <HedgeMage> ahh
[10:21] <pygi> LaserJock, wait ;)
[10:22] <HedgeMage> pygi: "Your wording" to a native english speaker usually means I'm supposed to change someone's phrasing
[10:22] <cbx33> heh me too HedgeMage 
[10:23] <spacey> ...
[10:23] <HedgeMage> Anyhow, a couple of things... first, I noticed as we pieced together the Dapper cookbook, we weren't very consistent with style (What's an h1, h2, how we split chapters, etc) we need to work on consistency in those areas.
[10:23] <cbx33> definitely HedgeMage 
[10:23] <spacey> HedgeMage: thats also related to the document format
[10:23] <spacey> wiki is not really a good place
[10:23] <cbx33> it may be an idea to have someone in charge of formatting
[10:24] <spacey> you don't make "books" in a wiki
[10:24] <spacey> layout is helpless
[10:24] <cbx33> pygi, are you suggesting svn?
[10:24] <HedgeMage> spacey: tell me about it, drove me bonkers :)
[10:24] <cbx33> and docbook?
[10:24] <RobinShepheard> html is not a lot better though
[10:24] <spacey> other documentation uses docbook right?
[10:24] <spacey> never used that
[10:24] <spacey> but its some form of xml right?
[10:24] <cbx33> docbook is easy enough
[10:24] <cbx33> yeh
[10:24] <pygi> cbx33, perhaps, I think the publishers just ask for simple OpenOffice files and they take care of rest
[10:25] <LaserJock> pygi: do you have a publisher
[10:25] <spacey> i think we should use something like docbook then
[10:25] <spacey> you can convert it to anything right?
[10:25] <LaserJock> kinda
[10:25] <cbx33> we can turn it into pdf easy enough
[10:25] <spacey> and publishers understand pdf :p
[10:25] <pygi> LaserJock, not yet actually, I think we need chapters layout to propose to publisher
[10:26] <LaserJock> pygi: I really think you should consider lulu.com
[10:26] <HedgeMage> pygi: depends on the publisher.  We may be best off using TeX/LaTeX so it can be easily styled
[10:26] <spacey> latex is fine with me too
[10:26] <pygi> LaserJock, we'll print current cookbook on Lulu.com indeed
[10:26] <cbx33> what about the new one
[10:26] <pygi> latex fine here as well, but do all know it?
[10:26] <LaserJock> pygi: for edgy too
[10:26] <cbx33> I don;t
[10:26] <spacey> pygi: i don't really know, but it should be easy :)
[10:26] <RobinShepheard> I don't know latex but I can learn
[10:26] <HedgeMage> cbx33: Lyx is a great WYSIWYM editor
[10:26] <HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: ^^^
[10:27] <pygi> LaserJock, shoot
[10:27] <HedgeMage> :P
[10:27] <LaserJock> the new help.ubuntu.com wiki (where the cookbooks are going) will have a wiki -> docbook converter
[10:28] <cbx33> LaserJock, is it any good?
[10:28] <LaserJock> yes
[10:28] <LaserJock> there is a SoC project
[10:28] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: I'm going to cry if I end up trying to work on a document this big in wiki speak again.
[10:28] <LaserJock> that has already produced some awesome stuff
[10:28] <spacey> i really don't want to work in wiki
[10:28] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: no, I mean for getting things started, small sections, etc
[10:28] <cbx33> me either
[10:28] <cbx33> svn
[10:28] <LaserJock> then once you get it into docbook it is good to go
[10:29] <LaserJock> for people who want to contribute without having to learn docbook
[10:29] <spacey> how is docbook on layout and stuff?
[10:29] <cbx33> I suppose we should be pushing bzr
[10:29] <spacey> HedgeMage: thats good
[10:29] <LaserJock> bzr! ;-)
[10:29] <pygi> cbx33, entire doc team uses SVN
[10:30] <pygi> ok, so we don't want publisher, and we'll print on Lulu or?
[10:30] <HedgeMage> I'm not familiar with Docbook, but I know that lyx is great for editing LaTeX in a WYSIWYG/WYSIWYM manner, without having to learn the markup
[10:30] <HedgeMage> pygi: we're what, four months out from edgy?
[10:30] <spacey> latex+svn sounds fine with me :P
[10:30] <spacey> does that work with the drupal thingy as well :p
[10:30] <pygi> HedgeMage, indeed
[10:31] <cbx33> latex+svn is cool with me
[10:31] <LaserJock> pygi: to be honest I think you would have a very difficult time getting a publisher for this, and even harder time making it open source
[10:31] <cbx33> indeed
[10:31] <HedgeMage> pygi: I don't know if you've dealt with publishers much before, but that's one insane crunch to try to propose a book in... we may be stuck with lulu or something similar for edgy and look into a "real" publisher for edgy+1
[10:31] <RobinShepheard> you could try oreilly
[10:31] <cbx33> lulu is the way to go
[10:31] <spacey> i think the book should be a bit more mature before it should be published
[10:31] <cbx33> HedgeMage, I agree
[10:32] <spacey> lulu is quite nice
[10:32] <LaserJock> lulu.com is quite awesome, it's cheaper than a publisher
[10:32] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: not true, some tech-oriented publishers, such as O'Reilly, are pretty open about publishing on the web along with the book release.
[10:32] <spacey> from what i have seen
[10:32] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: but usually not with a good license
[10:32] <HedgeMage> it's the time crunch that makes me think going to a traditional publisher is nuts
[10:32] <LaserJock> I could be wrong, but the Offical Ubuntu Book was a struggle to get done in GFDL
[10:32] <cbx33> HedgeMage, yeh
[10:32] <spacey> i think we can use lulu for a while, and for the next enterprise release a real book :)
[10:32] <cbx33> sounds good
[10:33] <LaserJock> do you really want a real book?
[10:33] <pygi> everyone agrees?
[10:33] <LaserJock> I would really hesitate to do that
[10:33] <spacey> pygi: on what?
[10:33] <cbx33> possibly if we make edgy cookbook good enough, then the changes from edgy to +1 won't be that great
[10:33] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: way-back-when I was talking to a publisher about "Help! The Computer Ate My Classroom!" they were going to let me do a Creative commons attribution share-alike as long as I released on the web four weeks after the book came out
[10:33] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: oh, that's not bad at all
[10:33] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: nope, they originally wanted 12 weeks but I talked them down :)
[10:34] <LaserJock> I think using a publisher would make the cost a lot higher
[10:34] <pygi> spacey, on printing on Lulu for edgy+1
[10:34] <HedgeMage> oh, and the attribution line had to include the publisher's name as well as mine
[10:34] <LaserJock> and I think it would make it more difficult to keep current
[10:34] <spacey> i think only enterprise releases are interesting to "publish"
[10:34] <HedgeMage> let's focus on edgy right now, and look at edgy +1 in another meeting, within the next week or two
[10:34] <spacey> and that would be the next one
[10:35] <spacey> the book will be much more mature then
[10:35] <spacey> ofcourse its a bit of a longterm vision
[10:35] <cbx33> indeed
[10:35] <cbx33> but never hurts to ahev a long term vision
[10:36] <LaserJock> ok, latex vs. docbook?
[10:36] <HedgeMage> LaTeX +1
[10:36] <cbx33> I'm ok with which ever
[10:36] <pygi> LaTeX +1
[10:36] <LaserJock> bzr vs. svn vs. drupal ?
[10:36] <cbx33> I learnt docbook enough to do ESA
[10:36] <kbrooks> svn +1
[10:36] <cbx33> svn +1
[10:36] <pygi> svn +1
[10:37] <spacey> latex+1, bzr&svn +1
[10:37] <kbrooks> decentralisation is overkill
[10:37] <LaserJock> can latex be converted to docbook?
[10:37] <HedgeMage> svn +1... drupal +.5 (ie my second choice)
[10:37] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: yep, very easily
[10:37] <cbx33> :D
[10:37] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: there are filters out there.
[10:37] <LaserJock> can latex be converted to HTML?
[10:37] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: latex can be converted to ANYTHING
[10:37] <spacey> i think it can be converted to many things
[10:37] <cbx33> indeed it can
[10:38] <cbx33> so I think we're agreed on that
[10:38] <LaserJock> well, I know that, I'm just wondering how much of a pain it is going to be
[10:38] <LaserJock> I'm -1 on LaTeX
[10:38] <LaserJock> but I don't count ;-)
[10:38] <pygi> LaserJock, bleh, why is that? :-/
[10:38] <Spec> I think the Twisted group made a python module to translate latex into html
[10:38] <pygi> (why don't you count)
[10:38] <pygi> everyone counts
[10:38] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: LaTeX was designed for publishing, so it's got many well-supporte LaTeX-to-whatever filters.
[10:38] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: yes, but what is your target media
[10:39] <pygi> LaserJock, do you planm on contributing to Cookbook? :)
[10:39] <LaserJock> probably not
[10:39] <pygi> eh :(
[10:39] <LaserJock> I'd love to but I've already got a ton of Edgy projects
[10:39] <kbrooks> two questions
[10:39] <LaserJock> I wouldn't mind helping with review and stuff
[10:39] <kbrooks> 1. what is this edgy cookbook?
[10:39] <kbrooks> 2. what meeting is this?/
[10:39] <spacey> kbrooks: an  "Edubuntu Guide"
[10:40] <cbx33> edubuntu-cookbook
[10:40] <LaserJock> 1. and Edubuntu guide 2. edubuntu cookbook meeting
[10:40] <kbrooks> ok
[10:40] <pygi> ok, so next :)
[10:40] <HedgeMage> kbrooks: a guide for people with little or no linux or admin experience to set up and run Edubuntu (Ubuntu's education offshoot)
[10:40] <LaserJock> I think docbook would be a more appropriate format for including in Edubuntu
[10:40] <pygi> LaserJock, you wanted to discuss my points? :)
[10:40] <pygi> LaserJock, that I agree, but we'll convert it anyway
[10:40] <kbrooks> may i comment?
[10:41] <HedgeMage> kbrooks: go for it :)
[10:41] <LaserJock> but why go through the hassle of converting when docbook is already easy to use?
[10:41] <LaserJock> it is *made* for this kind of stuff
[10:41] <pygi> LaserJock, indeed, you are right
[10:41] <kbrooks> j,,,
[10:41] <kbrooks> hmmm
[10:41] <kbrooks> um
[10:42] <pygi> LaserJock,  convince others, I am fine with whatever we go with
[10:42] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: it could go either way, really... I kind of expect the Latex people to work in latex and convert to docbook or the docbook people to work in that and convert to latex... at least if everyone is as set in their ways as I
[10:42] <cbx33> sure LaserJock 
[10:42] <cbx33> docbook is good with me
[10:42] <spacey> i don't really care, i have no significant experience with both
[10:42] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: yeah, I suppose
[10:43] <RobinShepheard> I am the same as spacey, I don't know either so it is much of a muchness for me for what it is worth
[10:43] <LaserJock> but it should end up as docbook in the end so however it gets there is up to you guys I guess :-)
[10:43] <HedgeMage> most print publishers I've worked with (that's 2 of 2, hardly a scientific sample) favor LaTeX over docbook, though, so that might be worth considering, just to avoid excessive cleaning up for print.
[10:43] <spacey> docbook has the advantage that the other doc guys use it as well
[10:43] <cbx33> docbook ++
[10:43] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: my point is that I don't think it should *ever* reach a print publisher (other than maybe lulu.com)
[10:44] <LaserJock> but that is something you guys need to decide
[10:44] <LaserJock> what is your target media?
[10:44] <cbx33> I think it all depends on how comprehensive it is
[10:44] <RobinShepheard> Daft question, how long from hetting to a print publisher to release date????
[10:44] <pygi> LaserJock, yes, indeed, only lulu.com for printing
[10:44] <RobinShepheard> *getting
[10:44] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: I must have missed that in the scrollback.  I'll bug you about it later since I want to hear your reasoning, but don't want to make the whole chan rehash it.
[10:44] <LaserJock> RobinShepheard: I'd guess close to a year
[10:44] <RobinShepheard> so by the time it is printed it is 2 versions of edubuntu out of date
[10:45] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: nope, nothing like that IME
[10:45] <HedgeMage> (mind you, my experience is limited)
[10:45] <LaserJock> I'm pretty sure that's what it took for the Ubuntu book
[10:45] <RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: go on
[10:45] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: wait a sec, are we talking from *approaching* a publisher, or from submitting a final draft?
[10:46] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: approaching a publisher
[10:46] <LaserJock> if we wanted to start today, how long would it take to get a product out?
[10:46] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: ahh, then I'd agree with you... sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about final submission to print
[10:46] <kbrooks> STOP
[10:46] <kbrooks> WAIT
[10:46] <kbrooks> FREEZE
[10:46] <RobinShepheard> so the print option is a bit of a moot point at the moment don't you think
[10:47] <HedgeMage> RobinShepheard: that's why I suggested tabling it for a later meeting
[10:47] <kbrooks> can't the edubuntu book be ...
[10:47] <kbrooks> hmmm
[10:47] <HedgeMage> ;)
[10:47] <LaserJock> I think it is, and so I think that also makes a difference as to latex vs. docbook
[10:47] <kbrooks> I recommend that it be all tabled (the whole "publish as book" thing)
[10:47] <LaserJock> if we are using LaTeX because that is what is use in publishing
[10:48] <Riddell> docbook is always better than latex
[10:49] <kbrooks> it is unnecessary to discuss this
[10:49] <LaserJock> look, I'm not against LaTeX (I'm a Chemisty, I write everything in latex) but I do think that because docbook was designed for this type of writing
[10:49] <RobinShepheard> given the indecision about the format, would it not be better to discuss other things like content and come back to the format later
[10:49] <kbrooks> IMO, this is out of scope
[10:49] <LaserJock> and it is what is used by yelp
[10:49] <kbrooks> RobinShepheard: agreed
[10:50] <LaserJock> probably, it really doesn't matter, we have svn for sure :-)
[10:50] <RobinShepheard> lolo
[10:50] <RobinShepheard> doh lol
[10:50] <cbx33> lolo or lulu
[10:50] <RobinShepheard> don't start that again cbx33 ;)
[10:50] <pygi> Ok, so the content
[10:51] <pygi> anyone has suggestions/ideas?
[10:51] <cbx33> well
[10:51] <cbx33> sorry
[10:51] <LaserJock> pygi: fill out what you have, make it better
[10:51] <pygi> oki, cbx33 shoot
[10:51] <LaserJock> doh, /me forgot to raise his hand
[10:51] <cbx33> I think we have to decide how comprehensive we're going to make it
[10:51] <cbx33> what are we including
[10:52] <cbx33> that kind of thing
[10:52] <pygi> LaserJock, no worries :0
[10:52] <pygi> cbx33, I would say very comprehensive
[10:52] <cbx33> I've finished
[10:52] <LaserJock> quick RobinShepheard, ask your question before more hands go up :-)
[10:53] <RobinShepheard> ok, cheers. I would suggest a starting section on install with screen pics, and larger centre section with day to day running and the apps
[10:53] <RobinShepheard> and a last section with trouble shooting section in
[10:53] <pygi> RobinShepheard, we have that already ;) (the first suggestion)
[10:54] <spacey> pygi: can i comment on your points now?
[10:54] <pygi> spacey, shoot
[10:54] <spacey> about 3.: i think freely available on the web is a must, not a perhaps
[10:54] <spacey> if anyone remembers his orginal points
[10:54] <pygi> spacey, agreed
[10:54] <spacey> quite a while back
[10:54] <spacey> maybe repast them
[10:54] <LaserJock> spacey: and should be open source as well :-)
[10:55] <spacey> LaserJock: yep
[10:56] <LaserJock> what license will it have? :-)
[10:56] <lucasvo> what's on ?
[10:56] <spacey> some CC i guess
[10:57] <RobinShepheard> lucasvo: edubuntu cookbook
[10:57] <LaserJock> spacey: or perhaps GFDL
[10:57] <spacey> thats also a possibility yes
[10:57] <LaserJock> GFDL has been recently (sort of) cleared as free by Debian
[10:57] <pygi> Okay, I am very sorry, but I gotta run now
[10:57] <spacey> at least it should be free
[10:57] <lucasvo> didn't we already discuss the licensing of cookbook?
[10:57] <pygi> Hedgemage is gonna take all over now, and I'll read on logs ;)
[10:58] <HedgeMage> np pygi 
[10:58] <spacey> wasnt it suppose to be CC BY SA?
[10:58] <LaserJock> CC isn't considered free by Debian, I dont' think
[10:58] <spacey> i recall something like that
[10:58] <RobinShepheard> see you later pygi
[10:58] <lucasvo> LaserJock: depends on which one, afaik
[10:58] <pygi> spacey, the licence is on wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToCookEdubuntu
[10:58] <pygi> laters
[10:58] <cbx33> bye pygi 
[10:58] <LaserJock> CC-SA and GFDL are common ones
[10:59] <HedgeMage> I'd say stick with the CC license... it's workable and we need consistency.
[10:59] <lucasvo> LaserJock: I think BY would be good
[10:59] <spacey> pygi: that page is gone
[10:59] <lucasvo> HedgeMage: and it is undrestandable
[10:59] <spacey> :<
[10:59] <HedgeMage> Authors, in general, are less likely to contribute if they aren't certain the license will stay as it is.
[10:59] <LaserJock> lucasvo: well, CC-SA implies BY but yeah
[10:59] <LaserJock> to me anyway
[10:59] <lucasvo> LaserJock: oh, I didn't know that
[11:00] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: so what is the license currently? CC-BY-SA?
[11:00] <HedgeMage> yes, I believe so
[11:00] <RobinShepheard> where can I find a copy of that??
[11:01] <LaserJock> oh,  then definately go with that
[11:01] <spacey> i have to leave as well
[11:01] <spacey> unfortunately
[11:01] <cbx33> see ya spacey 
[11:01] <lucasvo> RobinShepheard: on creativecommons.org
[11:01] <RobinShepheard> see you later sp
[11:01] <spacey> someone will write up something about the meeting and post to list? :)
[11:01] <RobinShepheard> see you later spacey
[11:01] <RobinShepheard> cheers lucasvo
[11:01] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: yes, just checked... see https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HowToCookEdubuntu/Chapters
[11:02] <HedgeMage> spacey: if no one else volunteers, I will
[11:02] <spacey> kk:)
[11:02] <spacey> gn
[11:02] <RobinShepheard> I would be happy to contribute under the current license
[11:03] <HedgeMage> Okay, so far we've established that we're going to collaborate via SVN, using either docbook or LaTeX, working under a CC-BY-SA license, and that Edgy will be published via lulu... did I miss anything?
[11:03] <HedgeMage> I'll take that as a "no"
[11:04] <lucasvo> grr
[11:04] <lucasvo> why not bzr?
[11:04] <HedgeMage> lucasvo: because only one person voted for it, IIRC
[11:05] <lucasvo> Anybody who wants to work for Ubuntu should be carefull in voting against bzr ;)
[11:05] <HedgeMage> lol :)
[11:05] <lucasvo> I mean for canonical
[11:05] <HedgeMage> I knew what you meant
[11:05] <HedgeMage> Anyhow, still on the table:
[11:06] <lucasvo> I think bzr is superior to svn because it is not serverbased. which makes it as redundant as the internet.
[11:06] <HedgeMage> Content, organization, timeline, and setting our next meeting
[11:06] <lucasvo> HedgeMage: Don't forget the layout design
[11:06] <HedgeMage> lucasvo: both docbook and LaTeX lend themselves to being styled after the fact, so I think we'll table that for now
[11:07] <HedgeMage> lucasvo: dinner before dessert as my mom used to say
[11:07] <lucasvo> ok
[11:07] <LaserJock> lucasvo: svn works very well for this sort of thing
[11:07] <lucasvo> HedgeMage: but one should prepare the desert before dinner otherwise one have to make it after the diner which will delay the meal
[11:07] <cbx33> I'm out guys
[11:07] <cbx33> tired 
[11:07] <cbx33> sleepy
[11:07] <RobinShepheard> later cbx33
[11:08] <HedgeMage> As for content, I'd like to come up with a draft outline at this meeting and post it to the mailing list for review.
[11:08] <lucasvo> LaserJock: of course. the only bad thing about svn is, there is no LP support at all
[11:08] <HedgeMage> cbx33: see you later... pm me your email addy please in case I don't have it so I can get you that screenie ASAP
[11:08] <LaserJock> lucasvo: why do you need LP support?
[11:09] <RobinShepheard> HedgeMage: would it be worth providing a brief overview of networking in general, after all some teachers may no very little about computer networks
[11:09] <lucasvo> LaserJock: because it's the dev. plattform for ubuntu?
[11:09] <lucasvo> RobinShepheard: yes I think so
[11:09] <lucasvo> (especially because I would probably profit as well)
[11:09] <lucasvo> RobinShepheard: explain how lan works
[11:09] <HedgeMage> guys, let's focus on content okay? we can revisit managing the thing at the end of our meeting if there's time.
[11:09] <lucasvo> and maybe even how to set up the hardware
[11:09] <lucasvo> how to use a crimptool
[11:09] <lucasvo> etc.
[11:10] <LaserJock> lucasvo: this is documentation, and svn is still a good tool
[11:10] <RobinShepheard> it is just the current one just says about thin clients and that is about it
[11:11] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: content, please.
[11:11] <HedgeMage> I'd reccommend that we expand the apps overview to include examples of in-classroom use
[11:12] <RobinShepheard> especially keduca
[11:12] <RobinShepheard>  a real life saver potentially
[11:13] <HedgeMage> any more suggestions for additional content?  or content that should be scrubbed?
[11:14] <RobinShepheard> just the intro to networking
[11:15] <HedgeMage> got it on the list.
[11:15] <RobinShepheard> cheers
[11:16] <HedgeMage> okay, anything else regarding content, or are we ready to head on to organization?
[11:16] <HedgeMage> okay, organization then...
[11:18] <HedgeMage> I propose that the LTSP and standalone parts each be made into "Pre-Install" "Installation" and "Post-Install" sections, and that the post-install sections absorb stuff like the printing chapter from "shiny things"
[11:19] <HedgeMage> I think that it will add clarity, and keep users of one type of set-up from being confused by settings that only effect the other.
[11:19] <HedgeMage> The down side is that we may end up dublicating some work between the two post-install sections.... I do expect any duplication to be minimal
[11:19] <HedgeMage> thoughts?
[11:19] <RobinShepheard> I think that makes a lot of sense, then you can make sure of things like depndancies and the like
[11:20] <HedgeMage> anybody else? or any other suggestions?
[11:20] <RobinShepheard> also people will be able to see results easier
[11:20] <RobinShepheard> I still reckon you should finish with a brief trouble shooting section
[11:21] <RobinShepheard> if it doesn't work check this sort of thing
[11:21] <HedgeMage> hmmm... might it work better to have a "troubleshooting" bit at the end of each chapter that directly addresses things done in that chapter?
[11:22] <RobinShepheard> yeah, that would deffinately make more sense
[11:23] <RobinShepheard> it would definately make it easier to find the troubleshooting bits for the individual app
[11:23] <HedgeMage> that's what I was thinking
[11:23] <RobinShepheard> I bow down to your greater wisdom
[11:23] <HedgeMage> plus, it would reduce frustration, I think, because it'll take less momentum away from the process if the help is right there.
[11:23] <HedgeMage> :) the troubleshooting was your idea, don't give me all the credit :D
[11:24] <HedgeMage> Okay, anything else for organization?
[11:24] <RobinShepheard> not from me
[11:24] <HedgeMage> I think we're all that's left :/
[11:24] <HedgeMage> oh, well
[11:24] <RobinShepheard> looks like it
[11:24] <HedgeMage> last bit: time, date, and agenda for our next meeting.
[11:24] <RobinShepheard> most haven't left though
[11:25] <RobinShepheard> only real day I can't do is first wednesday of the month
[11:25] <RobinShepheard> it is the local linux user group :)
[11:25] <HedgeMage> I'd like to see us get together early next week, as we desperately need to figure out the docbook/latex question, and I'd like to get a vote on the content/organization suggestions made today
[11:26] <RobinShepheard> monday is good for me
[11:26] <HedgeMage> 20:00 UTC next Tuesday sound good?  (Expecting it to last approx 30-40 minutes)
[11:26] <RobinShepheard> well any day is good for me next week. yeah sounds fine
[11:26] <HedgeMage> hmmm let me check, I think there's already a meeting monday
[11:28] <RobinShepheard> developer summit next monday
[11:28] <RobinShepheard> will that be a problem??
[11:28] <RobinShepheard> ubuntu one that is
[11:29] <HedgeMage> well, that's only for people lucky enough to be in Paris :P
[11:29] <HedgeMage> which, admittedly, includes some of ours
[11:29] <RobinShepheard> not me unforunately
[11:30] <HedgeMage> what about this week thursday, 20:00 UTC... that way we don't conflict with Paris or with various other meetings on the Fridge
[11:30] <HedgeMage> it's soon, but if I can get this write-up done ASAP I can give everyone some time to prep and we should be good for enough people to make a decision
[11:30] <RobinShepheard> ok fine by me
[11:31] <HedgeMage> cool
[11:31] <HedgeMage> thursday at 20:00 UTC then, expecting 30-40 minutes in length
[11:31] <RobinShepheard> I wont have a lot to offer about formats or svn vs bzr though as I have never used any of them
[11:31] <HedgeMage> svn is easy, I've not yet tried bzr.
[11:32] <RobinShepheard> same place for the meeting??
[11:32] <HedgeMage> One of the reasons I favored LaTeX over Docbook is that I don't know of an easy WYSIWYG editor for docbook, but I do know of one for LaTeX
[11:32] <HedgeMage> yep, same place.
[11:32] <HedgeMage> I'm headed back to #edubuntu now