[01:59] <kbrooks> see you later
[03:09] <lukketto> when the next meeting to become "member"?
[03:10] <azeem> lukketto: AFAIK the next community council meeting should be soon, but no time has been set yet
[03:10] <azeem> but I haven't followed closely
[03:14] <lukketto> azeem: thank you! I'll be tuned ;)
[03:23] <jenda> I've been following closely, but it hasn't helped much :)
[03:31] <Seveas> azeem, probably in 2 weeks
[03:31] <Seveas> next week is the paris conference
[03:32] <azeem> was there a CC meeting this week?
[06:53] <jjesse> @schedule detroit
[06:53] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 20 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu
[06:57] <klepas> jjesse: that's nice :)
[06:57] <klepas> @schedule Sydney
[06:57] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 21 Jun 06:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu | 22 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu | 27 Jun 07:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu
[07:00] <bhuvan> ding, time to start ?
[07:00] <LaserJock> wow, punctual
[07:00] <bhuvan> let's try to be punctual :)
[07:00] <ogra> whats going on? there is nothing scheduled
[07:01] <jjesse> doc team meeting
[07:01] <bhuvan> ogra: we have scheduled doc team meeting, but it was not updated in the topic ...
[07:01] <jjesse> the schedule got messed up, the channel and fridge had it for yesterday, when today is the real time
[07:01] <ogra> ah
[07:01] <ogra> i remember :)
[07:01] <LaserJock> I thought it was yesterday too
[07:01] <highvoltage> heh. they've probably said 'ubuntu' 10 times on the news tonight :)
[07:02] <ogra> highvoltage, not here :/
[07:02] <highvoltage> (sorry, meant for other channel)
[07:02] <bhuvan> LaserJock: no
[07:02] <nixternal> woo
[07:02] <nixternal> almost missed it
[07:02] <bhuvan> let's start. first: Has everyone merged any changes made to the branch back to trunk for their documents?
[07:02] <jjesse> can we wait to make sure mdke is here?
[07:02] <bhuvan> ok, np
[07:03] <LaserJock> bhuvan: I'm guessing no
[07:03] <jjesse> looks like he isn't goign to make it
[07:03] <bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
[07:03] <jjesse> bhuvan: yes i have merged some changes back into branches for the releasenotes for bug #48525
[07:03] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 48525 in kubuntu-docs "Problems with Dapper Release Notes for Kubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48525
[07:03] <LaserJock> bah, why can mdke never make the meetings? we need to schedule him better ;-)
[07:03] <jjesse> however i'm not done making all of the changes
[07:04] <bhuvan> ok
[07:04] <LaserJock> packaging guide merge is ready to commit, I was just waiting for mdke to merge the common stuff
[07:04] <bhuvan> ok
[07:04] <jjesse> bhuvan: the changes have been both made in trunk/kubuntu and also branches/dapper/kubuntu
[07:04] <bhuvan> ok, so henceforth we should make changes only in trunk?
[07:05] <jjesse> bhuvan: correct
[07:05] <bhuvan> cool
[07:05] <LaserJock> yeah, unless we have some weird thing that should go in -updates
[07:05] <jjesse> especially as we build edgy documents and then at the end of things we wil merge trunk to branches/edgy
[07:06] <bhuvan> yeah ok
[07:06] <jjesse> +1 LaserJock
[07:06] <bhuvan> jjesse: i guess we have long way to go to creat branches/edgy?
[07:06] <LaserJock> doc string freeze
[07:06] <jjesse> when doc freeze comes we create branches/edgy
[07:06] <jjesse> 4 months
[07:07] <bhuvan> oh ok
[07:07] <jjesse> actually less then that :)
[07:07] <LaserJock> we'll see next week :-)
[07:07] <bhuvan> when is edgy scheduled to release (if i'm ignorant) ?
[07:07] <nixternal> october
[07:07] <bhuvan> ok
[07:07] <LaserJock> bhuvan: the release schedule will be done next week at the dev summit
[07:07] <nixternal> falls in line with the every 6 months
[07:08] <jjesse> gets us bac on schedule for the 6 months after the delay
[07:08] <jjesse> whats' the next point in the agenda?
[07:08] <LaserJock> new docs
[07:08] <bhuvan> next: New documents for EdgyEft
[07:08] <nixternal> NEW DOCUMENTS FOR EDGY EFT
[07:08] <nixternal> hehe
[07:08] <bhuvan> 1) Ubuntu Reference Manual
[07:09] <bhuvan> any opinion about adding this manual for ubuntu?
[07:09] <LaserJock> what does it do?
[07:09] <jjesse> what exactly will this manual be?  how will it defer from the DesktopGuide?
[07:09] <LaserJock> we need a spec or something?
[07:09] <jjesse> i would assume?
[07:10] <LaserJock> whose baby is it?
[07:10] <bhuvan> LaserJock: spec is not ready. but the intention is to make sure user is able to resolve most of his issues using this manual. it covers basics
[07:10] <bhuvan> LaserJock: it's (will be) mine!
[07:10] <jjesse> how does that differ from the Desktop Guide?
[07:11] <bhuvan> jjesse: here we may cover how to install (basics), how to upgrade, how to configure custom apt repo, some server apps. finer specifics may be covered in specialised manuals like desktop guide, server guide, etc.
[07:12] <jjesse> bhuvan: seems like a lot of overlap
[07:12] <LaserJock> troubleshooting?
[07:12] <bhuvan> jjesse: may be how to add a cron job
[07:12] <bhuvan> jjesse: overlap with existing ones?
[07:12] <bhuvan> LaserJock: you want to add that section?
[07:13] <jjesse> bhuvan: yes overlap with what the desktop guide can and should show
[07:15] <bhuvan> jjesse: i want this manual to the superset and all other documents may be derived from it. it should be the one stop document for almost all user requirements. for finer details, the users can refere specialized documents/manuals
[07:15] <bhuvan> it's just a thought. unsure how relevant/useful it will be
[07:15] <jjesse> then we need to make a Kubuntu one as well
[07:16] <bhuvan> jjesse: definitely :)
[07:16] <nixternal> thats where i can help out if needed since i use Kubuntu and know my ways around KDE...i tend to loose it, or get lost in gnome ;)
[07:16] <LaserJock> hmm, I think something more like an index of what we have
[07:16] <LaserJock> ?
[07:16] <jjesse> LaserJock: i wonder if that would be better on what mdke is suggesting about reording yelp
[07:17] <bhuvan> i guess almost all distribution (redhat, gentoo, debian) have such kind of document. so i guess we should have one
[07:17] <LaserJock> jjesse: that's what I was thiinking
[07:17] <nixternal> it could be universal, as pretty much what you do with Ubuntu you can do with Kubuntu and so forth, you would have to get specific when it comes down to KDE/GTK specific apps
[07:18] <jjesse> bhuvan: i think we need a more/better defined spec of it before i can figure out why i would use it as a user
[07:18] <jjesse> maybe some further discussion on the mailing lists?
[07:18] <jjesse> with links to other docs of similar sort
[07:18] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:18] <LaserJock> I agree
[07:19] <bhuvan> jjesse: point. it adds value only when we have defined spec. i guess, i can prepare the spec so we can discuss either in mailing list/irc
[07:19] <LaserJock> I think a nice indexing type page (one for all derivatives) that makes it easy for a user to find what they want in the existing docs
[07:19] <LaserJock> would be nice :-)
[07:19] <jjesse> which i think mdke is aruging for
[07:20] <LaserJock> kinda, yeah
[07:20] <bhuvan> LaserJock: you are more refering to site map kind of document. i guess, reference manual may not be for that
[07:20] <LaserJock> kind of like a site map, but a little more to it
[07:21] <bhuvan> yeah
[07:21] <LaserJock> bhuvan: I'd suggest making a spec with an outline and links to other like docs as jjesse has said. I'm just not clear on what you are proposing
[07:21] <bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
[07:21] <LaserJock> and how it integrates with our docs, etc.
[07:21] <bhuvan> ok
[07:21] <LaserJock> I think I like the idea, I just need to see more and we should tweak it up nice :-)
[07:22] <bhuvan> yeah ok and it should be presented well :)
[07:22] <jjesse> +1 laserjock
[07:22] <bhuvan> ok, good plan. shall we move to next topic ?
[07:23] <LaserJock> sure
[07:23] <bhuvan> Kubuntu Docs ([JonathanJesse] )
[07:24] <bhuvan> jjesse: do you like to propose new documents for kubuntu?
[07:24] <nixternal> jjesse: this is along the lines of what kmon and Riddell referred to?
[07:25] <LaserJock> jjesse: ok so what's new, the switching from windows?
[07:26] <jjesse> sorry phonecall
[07:26] <nixternal> my opinion, as well as many other Kubuntu'ers, is that the documentation is Ubuntu sided, and it seems as if Kubuntu is a back burner project..i think users would like to see a little more kubuntu specific documentation
[07:26] <nixternal> haha jjesse me too..my sister wouldn't stop talking
[07:27] <jjesse> nixternal what are you refering to riddell talkign about?
[07:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: I've been hearing that kind of thing from the dev side as well
[07:27] <nixternal> about the Kubuntu documentation that was brought up during the Kubuntu Meeting a week or so ago
[07:27] <jjesse> nixternal:  ah yes
[07:27] <jjesse> well currently the spec KubuntuDocs/Edgy refer to the current docs plus a SwitchingFromWindows
[07:27] <jjesse> plus there is no guide for any of adept programs which i'm writing
[07:28] <nixternal> i know kmon had proposed a kubuntu doc/wiki team at their meeting...and that is why i was here to help
[07:28] <jjesse> ah
[07:28] <LaserJock> bah, why do that?
[07:28] <jjesse> nixternal: kmon and I spoke that we would not seperate the kubuntu users from ubuntu-doc
[07:28] <nixternal> im guessing they feel left out ;)
[07:29] <jjesse> we use the same tools, the same repository, the same site, help.ubuntu.com/doc.ubuntu.com etc
[07:29] <nixternal> i agree jjesse..as i think that goes against the Ubuntu meaning for one...w/o Ubuntu there would be no Kubuntu
[07:29] <bhuvan> nixternal: can you elaborate ?
[07:29] <jjesse> bhuvan: it goes back to a lot of the documentation/work is very ubuntu specific
[07:29] <LaserJock> yeah, because people work on what they use
[07:29] <jjesse> for example in the Official Ubuntu Book, there is only one chapter dedicated to Kubuntu (which I wrote) but the rest of the book is dedicated to ubuntu
[07:30] <bhuvan> jjesse: wont it be solved if we have enough kubuntu documenters
[07:30] <nixternal> if you look at wiki documentation/howto's and what not, they all seem to lean towards Ubuntu...of course most of these articles will also work with Kubuntu
[07:30] <nixternal> i would love to get involved with some Kubuntu documentation..that is why i was trying to join the DocTeam
[07:30] <LaserJock> and there is no reason you can't
[07:30] <jjesse> bhuvan: yes it would help, however most of the calls for help that have been placed there has been no response
[07:31] <jjesse> nixternal and we would love to have you help out with thedocs
[07:31] <nixternal> im not a coder..and i just want to help out..plus i have done documentation previously
[07:31] <nixternal> thx jjesse
[07:31] <bhuvan> jjesse: as LaserJock say they work on what they use.
[07:31] <jjesse> if you want to help out with the dekstop guide, release notes, about kubuntu etc that is great
[07:31] <bhuvan> nixternal: great
[07:31] <jjesse> or if you want to write your document that needs help that would be perfect
[07:31] <jjesse> nixternal: just add it to the spec :)
[07:32] <nixternal> spec link that you are referring to
[07:32] <nixternal> or link spec rather ;)
[07:32] <jjesse> http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDocs/Edgy
[07:32] <bhuvan> imo, if we remove gnome/kde everything is just one. so, the help system is available for all those applications in ubuntu/kubuntu form. so, why do we have hard feeling (if we have one)?
[07:32] <nixternal> arg..lol...looking at it already
[07:32] <nixternal> i can come up with something im sure
[07:33] <jjesse> nixternal: that is awesome
[07:33] <nixternal> i can work with kmon and Riddell to see what they may like to see
[07:33] <jjesse> nixternal: can you CC me on emails to them :)
[07:33] <nixternal> sure can
[07:33] <bhuvan> nixternal: and may be to ubuntu-doc mailing list? 
[07:33] <jjesse> yeah
[07:33] <nixternal> no problem
[07:34] <jjesse> instead of cc me just cc ubuntu-doc :)
[07:34] <nixternal> got it
[07:34] <LaserJock> jjesse: ok, so is this switching to windows doc Kubuntu specific? could we turn it into a generic doc?
[07:34] <jjesse> LaserJock: well i think it might become like the DesktopGuide
[07:34] <nixternal> switching to windows?  is that backwards?
[07:34] <jjesse> one for Ubuntu and one for Kubuntu
[07:34] <nixternal> don't we want switching from windows ;)
[07:34] <jjesse> just because there are a lot of things that are different
[07:35] <jjesse> and it should be switching from windows
[07:35] <nixternal> hehe
[07:35] <LaserJock> lol, sorry
[07:35] <nixternal> i think that would have been a bad marketing decision ;D
[07:35] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:36] <jjesse> anyways the wiki page SwitchingFrom Windows is quite big and there is a lot ubuntu specific stuff on it
[07:37] <jjesse> i think someone, and maybe nixternal would like to create it :)  should take a large portion of it and kubuntuize it
[07:37] <nixternal> i can take a look and come up with some Kubuntu ideas for it if you would like
[07:37] <bhuvan> imo, it should be more generic (applicable to both ubuntu/kubuntu) than being specific to kubuntu :)
[07:37] <LaserJock> yeah, I just wondered if it was DE specifc enough to need 2 docs
[07:37] <bhuvan> 2 docs =  2 identical docs
[07:38] <jjesse> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/SwitchingFromWindows
[07:38] <bhuvan> imo, in long run it may be difficult to maintain and keep them up-to-date and sync with each other
[07:38] <jjesse> agreed bhuvan, i think that is the problem we ran into w/ the desktop guide
[07:38] <nixternal> maybe a default page "SwitchingFromWindows" with other pages linked to Ubuntu > Kubuntu  and so forth
[07:38] <nixternal> or like bhuvan said, make it generic
[07:39] <jjesse> if we create the document, we can get it linked off of help.ubuntu.com and also get included in the DesktopCD
[07:39] <LaserJock> what I'd like to see is something where you write it as generically as possible and then have little notes or something where it is DE specifc
[07:39] <nixternal> although, it could be generic...alot of it actually...with some differences when it comes to graphical software installations via synaptics or ept
[07:39] <bhuvan> jjesse, imo we should have one document as we currently have (server guide, packaging guide). we can feel free to ship two copies seperately, may be one in ubuntu-docs and one in kubuntu-docs
[07:40] <jjesse> ok, i'll start a thread on the mailing list where we can discuss in further detail
[07:40] <LaserJock> bhuvan: yes, ideally, the point is if we can get the info to the user we need doing it generically
[07:40] <bhuvan> jjesse: ok
[07:40] <LaserJock> some things do depend on the DE
[07:41] <bhuvan> yeah
[07:41] <bhuvan> ok, now, shall we move to next topic ?
[07:41] <LaserJock> I have one doc
[07:41] <bhuvan> yeah?
[07:41] <LaserJock> I didn't put it on the agenda
[07:41] <jjesse> the packaging guide?
[07:41] <LaserJock> and I don't know that I'll be doing it in edgy
[07:41] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScriptingDoc
[07:42] <bhuvan> go ahead
[07:42] <LaserJock> jjesse: now, that one isn't new anymore ;-)
[07:42] <jjesse> grin
[07:42] <LaserJock> my idea was to have a simple intro to Python/Bash scripting and with cookbook style code snippets (contributed by the community) for every day user things
[07:43] <nixternal> i like that
[07:43] <LaserJock> it is very brain dump at this point, but here is my rationale
[07:43] <jjesse> LaserJock: that sounds pretty cool
[07:43] <LaserJock> 1) Ubuntu has been called a Python-centric distro
[07:44] <LaserJock> but we really don't have any docs that show it (we do ship Dive into Python)
[07:44] <LaserJock> 2) Even fairly new users need to do automated tasks
[07:44] <nixternal> i can print 5+6 to the screen ;)
[07:44] <LaserJock> rename .mpg/.ogg based on id tags
[07:45] <LaserJock> 3) It give a change for kids (and adults of course :-) ) to get into programming in an easy way
[07:45] <jjesse> LaserJock +1 for me
[07:45] <jjesse> i'd go ahead and create it
[07:46] <LaserJock> so it's more of an Python/Bash evangelizing doc than a Course in Computer Science ;-)
[07:46] <nixternal> +1 here big time
[07:46] <nixternal> great spec imho
[07:46] <bhuvan> LaserJock, but how well it is useful while tons of documents are already available for python
[07:46] <Spec> indeed
[07:46] <LaserJock> bhuvan: because it is Python on Ubuntu, and it isn't a Python Reference/Tutuorial
[07:46] <nixternal> i could really use something like that considering im just now getting into the programming part of computers after stopping many many years ago...
[07:47] <bhuvan> LaserJock: can you show an example?
[07:48] <LaserJock> bhuvan: the one I gave was renaming .mp3s based on id tags
[07:48] <LaserJock> it takes about 10 lines in python
[07:48] <bhuvan> ok, so are we going to include the script and demonstrate the user using a document?
[07:48] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:48] <LaserJock> the idea would be similar to Python Cookbook
[07:48] <LaserJock> but more user focused
[07:49] <bhuvan> LaserJock, great idea. but do you think other distro docteam prepare these kind of documents?
[07:49] <LaserJock> so get little scripts from people (we can have a "call for scripts" on the forums, ML, etc.) and then explain Python by explaining what the script does
[07:49] <LaserJock> bhuvan: I don't really know
[07:49] <LaserJock> bhuvan: I doubt it
[07:50] <bhuvan> LaserJock: good we didnt choose perl and we may end up shipping the dependent module along with the document ! 
[07:51] <LaserJock> just getting people interested in Python by showing, "heah, you don't have to write a 10,000 line GUI app to use this"
[07:51] <LaserJock> my main point is, Python is great, and we ship lots of Python stuff, let's show users how to use it a bit, get them interested
[07:52] <bhuvan> LaserJock: definitely we have point to prove. may be, we can list of couple of frequent programming needs in day to day user/developer need and document it in a form to reach them effectively
[07:53] <bhuvan> LaserJock, i'm not fully inclined including as part of document. But it is worth discussing with others through mailing list. so please ...
[07:53] <jjesse> what is the next topic?
[07:53] <nixternal> seems as if the next topic is mdke specific concerning his "Turn the help system upsidedown and make it more useful" proposal
[07:53] <LaserJock> yeah, this is sweet
[07:53] <bhuvan> nixternal, yeah thanks
[07:54] <bhuvan> i have two questions from that document. 1) what does he refer as help system (d.u.c or h.u.c or w.u.c) 2) what does he refer as upstream document
[07:55] <LaserJock> 1) yelp or khelpcenter? 2) gnome/kde
[07:55] <jjesse> i think he referes to help.ubuntu.com
[07:55] <bhuvan> 1) +1 jjesse
[07:55] <nixternal> maybe we should hold this to the end just in case he makes it home and comes in here...or hold it off until we can speak with him
[07:55] <DonSc> "a possible way to go might be to bin the upstream categorisation that currently forms the front page of the help system"
[07:56] <LaserJock> what he's talking about it taking gnome/kde doc and melding them with our docs
[07:56] <jjesse> i wish he wa here :)
[07:56] <LaserJock> and then we have a listing (like he has) of areas a user would want to go to
[07:57] <DonSc> I read it as reforming the Yelp front page (FWIW)
[07:57] <LaserJock> yes
[07:57] <bhuvan> DonSc: me too come to that conclusion after reading point 1 in advantages section
[07:57] <LaserJock> I think the idea is to move away from doc specific documentation
[07:57] <LaserJock> like you click on Packaging Guide or Desktop Guide
[07:58] <jjesse> explain doc specific documentation?
[07:58] <bhuvan> infact i never use 2nd half 
[07:58] <DonSc> "Project Mallard"!!!!1111!!one1!!!(tm)
[07:58] <LaserJock> so the documentation is centered around those areas
[07:59] <LaserJock> so I don't write the Packaging Guide so much as add to the "Contributing to Ubuntu" section
[07:59] <jjesse> intersting
[07:59] <bhuvan> if we include those new sections, where does the existing ones go?
[08:00] <LaserJock> "Using your desktop" would have stuff from DG but also Gnome/KDE docs, Offical book, etc
[08:00] <LaserJock> bhuvan: away!
[08:00] <jjesse> and how do we maintain it in svn?
[08:00] <LaserJock> hehe, that's a good question :-)
[08:00] <bhuvan> LaserJock: :) i'm unsure if he mean it :) :)
[08:00] <LaserJock> yes
[08:01] <nixternal> wrong button?
[08:01] <bhuvan> may be
[08:01] <LaserJock> bhuvan: he wan't the yelp home page to look like what he had
[08:01] <nixternal> hehe
[08:01] <bhuvan> LaserJock: yeah, but where do we place existing ones and how do we draw line between new and existing ones?
[08:02] <LaserJock> there won't be existing ones
[08:02] <LaserJock> that's the point
[08:02] <DonSc> lot of work
[08:02] <LaserJock> yelp will *only* have those items
[08:02] <bhuvan> LaserJock, each of those topics are excellent and need to be placed but where and at the cost of what?
[08:03] <LaserJock> those items are the help system
[08:03] <DonSc> Really, really, look into Mallard
[08:03] <LaserJock> the cost is a heck of a lot of work
[08:03] <LaserJock> DonSc: I think that might be in the plan
[08:03] <LaserJock> not sure though
[08:03] <bhuvan> LaserJock, not just that at the cost of existing ones
[08:03] <DonSc> Basically along the same lines
[08:03] <LaserJock> bhuvan: no, they are a part of the new system
[08:04] <bhuvan> LaserJock: you mean they will be part of new system, but they wont be placed in front page?
[08:04] <LaserJock> bah, no
[08:04] <LaserJock> it won't say 
[08:05] <LaserJock> "Desktop Guide"
[08:05] <LaserJock> the desktop guide content will be in the relevent areas
[08:05] <bhuvan> oh ok
[08:05] <LaserJock> along with the upstream content
[08:05] <LaserJock> Offical book sections, etc.
[08:06] <LaserJock> see the italicized stuff next to the items
[08:06] <bhuvan> so, it will be like segregating existing ones and forming these documents. once we develop all these documents, we may remove existing ones?
[08:07] <LaserJock> well, I don't know that there an plan, but I would think the existing doc contents get swallowed up into the new help system
[08:07] <LaserJock> *is a plan
[08:08] <LaserJock> basically, the problem is that the current yelp (and I think KDE has a similar problem) is a mess
[08:08] <LaserJock> users don't know where to go
[08:08] <bhuvan> ok
[08:08] <DonSc> LaserJock: we're working on a new TOC for 2.16
[08:08] <LaserJock> they never get to things they should, a lot of that is because we don't integrate into the upstream docs
[08:08] <DonSc> As a stopgap until Mallard arives
[08:08] <LaserJock> DonSc: ah, interesting
[08:09] <LaserJock> bhuvan: hehe, thanks
[08:09] <LaserJock> for instance, Dive into Python
[08:09] <DonSc> Need to look into new categories though
[08:09] <nixternal> wb jjesse
[08:09] <jjesse> sorry needed to restart
[08:09] <nixternal> hehe
[08:09] <jjesse> vmware locked on me
[08:10] <bhuvan> LaserJock: what's your opinion about this proposal?
[08:10] <bhuvan> and jjesse: your opinion?
[08:10] <LaserJock> mdke's?
[08:11] <jjesse> don't have one right now, but i like the way things are setup right now :)
[08:11] <bhuvan> if we go ahead with this plan, how do we cater kubuntu needs? are we going to span that many kubuntu copies?
[08:11] <nixternal> my opinion even though im not officially a member > i don't know about turning it upside down, however making it more useful is good, but making the entire system EASIER for a beginner is the biggest approvement I think needed
[08:12] <nixternal> improvement
[08:12] <jjesse> agreed with bhuvan
[08:12] <bhuvan> nixternal: to give your opinion, you need not be a member. so feel free. you are doing good
[08:12] <nixternal> whew..thx ;)
[08:12] <LaserJock> my opinion is this, I think the idea is great and we need to head in that direction, but it will take a lot of hard work and *really* good communication with upstreams, etc.
[08:13] <LaserJock> so if we can do it, wonderful
[08:13] <nixternal> i see where bhuvan is coming from...  you would need 4 introductions for instance > Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Edubuntu / Xubuntu and more when new distro's come available
[08:13] <jjesse> supported instances
[08:13] <LaserJock> nixternal: each of those ships there own -docs anyway
[08:13] <nixternal> true
[08:14] <bhuvan> LaserJock: not yet i guess
[08:14] <LaserJock> not yet what?
[08:14] <bhuvan> i guess, each of those distro dont ship theire own -docs right now
[08:15] <jjesse> just kubuntu-docs and ubuntu-docs
[08:15] <jjesse> so far
[08:15] <bhuvan> jjesse: yes
[08:15] <bhuvan> so as mdke stated in line 2, we should do something adventurous this release. in that line it's an excellent move
[08:16] <LaserJock> bhuvan: yes they do
[08:16] <LaserJock> jjesse: no
[08:16] <bhuvan> LaserJock: is it? where do you see?
[08:16] <LaserJock> edubuntu and xubuntu shipped their own for Dapper, Edubuntu I'm sure of
[08:17] <LaserJock> yeah, they are both there
[08:17] <LaserJock> all the derivatives ship -docs
[08:18] <bhuvan> LaserJock: yeah i see relevant launchpad projects
[08:18] <LaserJock> anyway
[08:18] <bhuvan> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xubuntu-docs
[08:18] <bhuvan> fine
[08:18] <LaserJock> I believe users are not using the help systems effectively
[08:18] <bhuvan> so, atleast we conclude we can move forward in this direction. am i right?
[08:18] <LaserJock> heck, I'm not even using them effectavly
[08:19] <jjesse> bhuvan: as long as we take into account the different distros
[08:19] <LaserJock> bhuvan: well, there are a lot of other issues, translations, how to actually merge upstream, etc.
[08:19] <bhuvan> jjesse: it has to be discussed
[08:19] <bhuvan> LaserJock: it's the path right. so, we must take care
[08:20] <LaserJock> I do think it is the right path
[08:20] <bhuvan> see the last point. 'Some hard work required' :)
[08:20] <LaserJock> the user shouldn't have to figure out what is Ubuntu and what is Upstream
[08:20] <LaserJock> they should just think "What do I want help about" and that's it
[08:20] <nixternal> +1 ^^
[08:21] <jjesse> i would be intersted in further discussion
[08:21] <bhuvan> anyhow, we still have two questions unanswered: 1) action plan and what will be the status of existing ones and how it will be organised in svn 2) for other distros
[08:21] <LaserJock> existing docs are turned into the new ones
[08:21] <LaserJock> we might have to ditch svn I don't know
[08:21] <bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
[08:22] <bhuvan> ditch svn?
[08:22] <LaserJock> well, it could be that possibly it would be done via bzr
[08:22] <LaserJock> using LP
[08:23] <LaserJock> who know's
[08:23] <LaserJock> we are discussing ditching source packages too so.... ;-)
[08:23] <LaserJock> it Edgy!!!
[08:23] <LaserJock> it's
[08:23] <bhuvan> source package is ubuntu-docs and i assume we will place all these new documents in that.
[08:24] <LaserJock> bhuvan: hehe, my point is that some people are talking about doing away with source packages in Ubuntu and using bzr/LP
[08:24] <LaserJock> anyway
[08:24] <bhuvan> ok
[08:25] <LaserJock> my point is, at this point we need to decide if it is worth pursuing actually figuring out an implementation plan
[08:26] <bhuvan> LaserJock: i meant action plan. how do we plan to generate these docs ? what are the topics they constitute ? when we will release the first snapshot and things alike
[08:27] <bhuvan> LaserJock: and importantly who is going to take the lead responsibility
[08:27] <LaserJock> well, I think most of that is in mdke's spec
[08:27] <bhuvan> LaserJock: nope. it's just the outline and it define what to do, but it doesnt explain howto do
[08:27] <LaserJock> well, then we need to figure that out ;-)
[08:28] <bhuvan> yeah, shall we move to next topic?
[08:28] <LaserJock> I think mdke just wanted some feedback from the team as to if he was on crack or not ;-)
[08:28] <nixternal> lol
[08:28] <bhuvan> LaserJock, yeah i read it so
[08:28] <LaserJock> next item
[08:28] <bhuvan> w.u.c to h.u.c/community migration activity
[08:29] <LaserJock> do we know if the wiki has moved yet?
[08:29] <bhuvan> nope. they have set redirecting though
[08:29] <LaserJock> yeah, I think people are busy getting ready for Paris
[08:29] <bhuvan> ok
[08:30] <bhuvan> will there be any change in wiki clean-up activity before we do this migration?
[08:30] <LaserJock> we really need to get that done though
[08:30] <LaserJock> well, it should be ready to go
[08:30] <LaserJock> lots of people went though and cleaned out docs they didn't want moved and added ones they did
[08:31] <LaserJock> since it was supposed to happen like a week or two ago
[08:31] <nixternal> we have been working on cleaning up w.u.c
[08:31] <bhuvan> yeah, we seem to keep discussing about wikiteam and special privileges for them to control certain freezed pages ...
[08:32] <LaserJock> next item?
[08:32] <bhuvan> are we through with this?
[08:33] <LaserJock> I think so, the move hasn't happened yet
[08:33] <bhuvan> my doubt is, if we move are we planning to implement new policies for wiki or live with existing one?
[08:33] <nixternal> any timeline on the move?
[08:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: it was supposed to happen a while ago
[08:33] <jjesse> are we still on the agenda or are there things we can move to #ubuntu-doc?
[08:33] <LaserJock> we are on the agenda, do we need to make room for somebody else jjesse 
[08:34] <nixternal> i thought so..i remember when i started working with the wiki team, corey said they were getting ready to move to h.u.c
[08:34] <jjesse> nope i just don't want to get off track too far
[08:34] <bhuvan> jjesse: i guess we are not getting off track
[08:35] <LaserJock> bhuvan: yes, I expect there will be some new policies, not much of a change though
[08:35] <bhuvan> i assumed when we migrate w.u.c to h.u.c/community, there might be a change in wiki policy, thus not all of the users can edit all pages
[08:35] <bhuvan> LaserJock: ok
[08:35] <LaserJock> bhuvan: only the wiki team can delete/rename and a few pages might be locked maliciousness doesn't happen 
[08:36] <nixternal> so...community docs..is the entire wiki going to be transferred, or just redirects?
[08:36] <bhuvan> may be none of us here are unaware of that. we can discuss it in in #ubuntu-doc or mailing list so each of us may be aware of what'd happen after the move
[08:36] <bhuvan> ok, next item?
[08:36] <LaserJock> nixternal: everything with CategoryDocumentation
[08:37] <nixternal> ok
[08:37] <bhuvan> it's mine: Define a standard for svn (ubuntu-doc repository) commit log messages
[08:37] <nixternal> need to work on cleaning up more of those then
[08:37] <LaserJock> nixternal: and redirects will be left on wiki.u.c
[08:38] <LaserJock> bhuvan: yes?
[08:39] <bhuvan> currently, we committers dont follow standard when we commit the patch
[08:39] <bhuvan> it'd be great and useful if all committers follow and adhere to the standard when we record log messages
[08:39] <LaserJock> is it a problem?
[08:39] <bhuvan> in general, every open source project follow standard when it comes to commit
[08:40] <LaserJock> well, but is it a problem for us? do you have an example?
[08:40] <bhuvan> LaserJock: definitely yes. for a given document right now we dont know what was committed. the quality of log depend on committer
[08:40] <LaserJock> does the log matter much?
[08:41] <bhuvan> yes LaserJock
[08:41] <bhuvan> when someone wish to scan through the changes made to a document over a period of time, it makes sense
[08:41] <LaserJock> k, I guess
[08:41] <mdke> bhuvan: are you talking about the svn commit log? 
[08:41] <bhuvan> it does not require major effort to follow these simple standards, like: http://pastebin.com/713240
[08:41] <bhuvan> mdke: yes
[08:41] <bhuvan> mdke: last topic!
[08:41] <mdke> gotcha
[08:42] <mdke> I think the quality of the logs has been quite high, myself
[08:42] <bhuvan> mdke: yeah true. everyone of us should follow
[08:42] <mdke> they don't?
[08:42] <bhuvan> ops, wrong url. it should be: http://pastebin.com/713254
[08:43] <LaserJock> I'm just not seeing a problem, not that I'm against what your saying
[08:43] <bhuvan> i prefer every committer to follow this standard. so the quality of log doesnt differ among committers
[08:44] <mdke> I think that is a bit too detailed, it might be overkill
[08:44] <bhuvan> LaserJock: ok. imo, it's good to practise these standards when we work in any open source project
[08:44] <mdke> lots of times people make big changes, and detailing everything that closely would take some time
[08:45] <bhuvan> mdke: ok, i guess it is required in long run. we can scan through the log messages and spell the history of document
[08:45] <LaserJock> I don't know, I just try to explain what I did, if people really care they can check out the diff or -commits
[08:45] <bhuvan> mdke: it can be comma seperated. for example if we add installation section for numerous sections, just include the section name seperated by comma
[08:46] <bhuvan> LaserJock: to understand what has been changed, it's wise to have detailed log message than expecting the user to go through diff or -commits
[08:46] <LaserJock> who's the user?
[08:47] <LaserJock> I mean does anybody really care?
[08:47] <bhuvan> document maintainers
[08:47] <bhuvan> if someone joins our team in future and if he wish to see the history of document, log messages play vital role
[08:47] <LaserJock> I'm not trying to bash the idea, it just seems a little overkill for us
[08:47] <jjesse> agreed
[08:48] <bhuvan> jjesse: agreed with whom :) :)
[08:48] <jjesse> LaserJock
[08:48] <bhuvan> yeah ok
[08:48] <LaserJock> I'm pretty bad a commit/change logs but I can try to get better
[08:49] <mdke> yes, I think it's a bit overkill. However we can make an effort to give a good explanation of what is done in commits
[08:49] <bhuvan> ok. let me assume it's -1 :)
[08:50] <mdke> I'm not -1, I just think your paste was a little too much effort
[08:50] <bhuvan> mdke: ok
[08:50] <LaserJock> bhuvan: what I would like to see is a good example in the style guide (if it doesn't have one already)
[08:51] <mdke> good idea
[08:51] <bhuvan> LaserJock: so you dont want it as mandatory. but we can let the committer take a call?
[08:51] <LaserJock> "best practices"
[08:51] <bhuvan> ok, sounds good
[08:51] <LaserJock> and pehaps have a couple "essential elements of a good commit log"
[08:52] <bhuvan> yeah ok
[08:52] <LaserJock> like if you commit a patch from somebody else make sure to mention who they are ;-)
[08:52] <bhuvan> yeah, we already do that
[08:53] <bhuvan> fine, i guess that's it for the day. we have discussed almost 2hrs!
[08:53] <bhuvan> i guess, it's one of the productive meeting we had :)
[08:53] <LaserJock> yes
[08:53] <mdke> nice
[08:53] <LaserJock> it's because Matthew and Corey didn't show ;-)
[08:53] <bhuvan> thanks to everybody, LaserJock, jjesse & nixternal
[08:54] <bhuvan> ha ha ha
[08:54] <bhuvan> and Madpilot :)
[08:54] <LaserJock> Doc Team meeting ends here ----------