[12:48] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[12:48] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[12:48] <jenda> Still no CC...
[03:11] <simira> JaneW: hi, how are you?
[03:30] <msikma> Ubuntu art meeting coming up soon...
[04:52] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[04:52] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 20 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 16:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu
 Ubuntu art meeting coming up soon... <-- Please tell the fridge folks about meetings, otherwise #ubuntu-meeting may be occupied by others...
[05:28] <sabdfl> hi all
[06:02] <klepas> just a small change to the agenda
[06:02] <msikma> So... this place has been taken over by the Ubuntu art team now.
[06:02] <klepas> we're going to do the Goals first
[06:02] <Who_> looks like it
[06:02] <Who_> Thanks klepas :)
[06:02] <klepas> it was the last section of the agenda
[06:03] <msikma> First, off, I say we have us a little count of who's available on this meeting.
[06:03] <klepas> but i agree, it's the most important
[06:03] <klepas> msikma: good point
[06:03] <Seveas> small art team
[06:03] <lukacu> \me is Luka Cehovin
[06:03] <lukacu> ups
[06:03] <Who_> *Who_ is Jonathan Austin
[06:03] <msikma> As far as I know, the only people who have replied to the mail are here.
[06:04] <msikma> Except Etienne, who said he couldn't come, probably.
[06:04] <Who_> ahh, spot the irc newbie :P
[06:04] <sabdfl> is that everybody?
[06:04] <msikma> Sorry, tienne.
[06:04] <msikma> I'm sure that others will join in later.
[06:04] <klepas> okay
[06:05] <klepas> so to get things rolling, i'll take minutes and write it up
[06:05] <sabdfl> i'll chair this meeting for 45 minutes
[06:05] <klepas> to begin, please check the item on the agenda marked our goals
[06:05] <klepas> sabdfl: thanks :)
[06:05] <sabdfl> i'd like to make sure the leadership and governance discussion is done by then
[06:05] <sabdfl> at that point, i'll hand over to someone else to chair on the other issues
[06:05] <sabdfl> thanks for setting up the agenda
[06:05] <klepas> sure
[06:05] <klepas> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-June/002108.html
[06:05] <klepas> that
[06:06] <klepas> is the agenda
[06:06] <klepas> we'll go by you then
[06:06] <sabdfl> here is a proposal on governance structure
[06:06] <sabdfl>  - we have an overall art leadership team, with a chairman
[06:07] <sabdfl>  - that could have 3-5 people on it
[06:07] <sabdfl>  - responsible for:
[06:07] <sabdfl>    - recognising contributions and thus membership of "formal art team" and membership in ubuntu
[06:08] <sabdfl>      - settling overall art team disputes, which could still be referred up to the CC
[06:08] <sabdfl>     - reporting to the CC on activity, membership changes etc
[06:08] <sabdfl>   - we also want an "artist in chief" for Edgy
[06:08] <sabdfl>     - this is a position-for-the-release,
[06:09] <sabdfl>     - there would be a new artist-in-chief for a future release
[06:09] <sabdfl>   - and then we have theme teams
[06:09] <sabdfl>    - Human
[06:09] <sabdfl>     - Tangerine
[06:09] <sabdfl>     - Outdoors
[06:10] <sabdfl> each theme should have a very clear "rationale for existence"
[06:10] <sabdfl> so, i liked the analysis of folks on the list who were talking about "fast, lightweight" themes
[06:10] <sabdfl> and of course palettes for different tastes
[06:10] <msikma> Me too.
[06:10] <sabdfl> each theme gets a core leadership
[06:11] <Who_> Do your choice of themes names suggest that those are the three themes you want to continue with, or are they _just_ names?
[06:11] <sabdfl> and its own part of the wiki, and its own mailing list
[06:11] <klepas> just want to point out a package based off ubuntu-artwork is being made for all tango artwork, minus the icon set (as that is a separate package)
[06:11] <sabdfl> Who_: Human and Tangerine are pretty settled, Outdoors is just a name, not attached to it
[06:11] <sabdfl> we could split the themes into their own packages
[06:11] <klepas> so tango could be another "themed package"
[06:12] <sabdfl> yes
[06:12] <sabdfl> ubuntu-theme-tango
[06:12] <sabdfl> for example
[06:12] <andreasn> metacity theme and stuff, right?
[06:12] <sabdfl> so, most of the "here's a cool icon" discussion would happen in theme-specific lists
[06:13] <Who_> sabdfl: And what is the definition of a theme in this context - _everything_ to do with art like the "wide theme_ proposal, or just GTK and Icons?
[06:13] <troy_s> Might I propose that all themes exist below the Ubuntu 'wrapper' though -- if there is a programming implementation detail, it will need to migrate upstream accordingly.
[06:13] <sabdfl> yes, overall theme: desktop, splash, icons, gtk, window decoration
[06:13] <klepas> i think we all agree with this structure proposal - shall we vote on it?
[06:13] <sabdfl> we can talk about implementation next week with the distro guys
[06:14] <Who_> troy_s: can you explain the Ubuntu 'wrapper' - I don't know what you mean
[06:14] <sabdfl> klepas: let's ask for comment first
[06:14] <klepas> sure :)
[06:14] <troy_s> Who_: Artwork-Team -> Themes
[06:14] <Who_> troy_s: in the wiki
[06:14] <Who_> ?
[06:14] <klepas> comments in regard to the structural proposal now please
[06:14] <sabdfl> in other words, the theme teams are subject to the art leadership?
[06:15] <Who_> To structure: I like it, but I am unclear whether it would be necessary to assign ourselves to a specific team and therefore not contribute much to the other teams...
[06:15] <msikma> The structural proposal sounds very good, but it makes me wonder whether there's actually an "artist-in-chief" for the entire release or whether there will be many more for each independent theme. If the former, then who has the ultimate authority?
[06:15] <klepas> i think that is okay
[06:15] <troy_s> sabdfl: In the interest of keeping Ubuntu on track, it would seem to make sense.  Human might be only a 'theme', but it does define Ubuntu for 99% of users.
[06:15] <troy_s> Complexity is _not_ in our interest.
[06:16] <sabdfl> Who_: you can contribute to any team or theme, but the main thing is to recognise that a theme is not a democracy - there are people in charge of each theme, period
[06:16] <sabdfl> so you can contribute but need to go with their flow
[06:16] <Who_> sabdfl: great - good to recognise
[06:16] <sabdfl> if sufficient interest exists in additional theme teams, the art team leadership can create those too
[06:16] <sabdfl> but not make any guarantees about what gets included
[06:17] <msikma> That's fine.
[06:17] <Who_> sabdfl: are teams responsible for generating (deb) packages for themes?
[06:17] <sabdfl> Who_: they will be responsible for committing to a repository
[06:17] <sabdfl> but the uploads will be done by developers
[06:17] <cyanescent> I thought Tangerine was contracted... wouldn't it make sense that contributions get phased into one new theme, rather than spreading it thin ? 
[06:18] <sabdfl> Human is contracted, and likely to remain that way for now
[06:18] <sabdfl> but anybody can contribute
[06:18] <sabdfl> just follow the style
[06:18] <lapo> hi
[06:18] <lukketto> sabdfl: please to meet you!
[06:18] <msikma> Are you talking about the icon set or beyond just that, sabdfl?
[06:18] <sabdfl> cyanescent: that's why I would prefer just Tangerine and a "fast, lightweight" Outdoors
[06:18] <klepas> so, as we are generally in agreement with the proposal shall we move onto to considering positions for the artist-in-chief
[06:19] <sabdfl> any further questions or comments?
[06:19] <highvoltage> this art team covers edubuntu, kubuntu and xubuntu too, right?
[06:19] <andreasn> sounds good
[06:19] <Who_> yes: which themes are contracted - I.E how many will the art-team actually be responsible for
[06:19] <sabdfl> highvoltage: good point!
[06:19] <Who_> but yes - it also sounds good
[06:19] <sabdfl> we should allow for theme teams for other flavours too
[06:20] <ogra> highvoltage, the edubuntu-art team should join the ubuntu-art team imho
[06:20] <highvoltage> ogra: i agree, i don't think that would be very difficult
[06:20] <ogra> i think the others have art teams as well
[06:20] <sabdfl> art leadership team is just responsible for basic governance, not deciding art for the individual themes
[06:20] <troy_s> I love the idea of diversity, but the problem with the overarching look and feel of the Ubuntu project gets thrown into jeopardy by not having a top level sort of view.
[06:20] <msikma> I have another question: as to the default theme of Ubuntu, it might be a good idea to have an intensive drafting phase before commissioning anyone to be the art leader. We have not seen all "directions" that we may take for the new theme yet, and yet appointing a leader would cause us to start following one.
[06:20] <cyanescent> Who_: as I undertand, Human is still contracted, and art team gets Tangerine and lightweight Outdoors
[06:20] <sabdfl> troy_s: that's the job of the artist-in-chief, and to a certain extent the art leadership team
[06:21] <troy_s> sabdfl: Great.
[06:21] <sabdfl> troy_s: is there a better way, perhaps?
[06:21] <sabdfl> we want to give people the ability to focus on a theme they like, but still keep a strong style for the default
[06:21] <troy_s> sabdfl: People can already focus on sub themes and particulars.
[06:22] <sabdfl> ok
[06:22] <troy_s> sabdfl: My concern is more with how Ubuntu looks to people who get a disk, from the packaging etc, right down to the 'wow' of install.
[06:22] <msikma> That's my main concern as well.
[06:22] <Who_> sabdfl: Is the packaging etc likely to stay contracted?
[06:23] <troy_s> sabdfl: Which I guess means addressing things less in terms of themes and more in terms of 'singular os'.
[06:23] <troy_s> Who_: Until someone steps up and gets the bloody work done, expect everything to remain contracted.
[06:23] <ogra> Who_, shipit is no eternal thing ... it will end at some point
[06:23] <lapo> sorry guys I'm late, so I missed something, can I find logs somewhere?
[06:23] <sabdfl> Who_: if the chief artist is up to it, they can do packaging, subject to review by jane silber who currently handles the contracted artist for that
[06:23] <troy_s> ogra:  Packaging is still relevant.
[06:23] <klepas> lapo: note yet. we've just begin discussing the proposed structure
[06:24] <troy_s> sabdfl: That would still require immense 'team' effort, not theme based fracturing.
[06:24] <Who_> troy_s: Indeed. I can imagine that it may take a release cycle doing a great job on themes and other artwork before the team has the experience nad trust in the community to take on more of the art work...
[06:24] <sabdfl> ok
[06:24] <klepas> sabdfl: you only have a certain amount of time with us, shall we move on to the leadership making?
[06:24] <msikma> I still have an unanswered question.
[06:24] <msikma>  <msikma> I have another question: as to the default theme of Ubuntu, it might be a good idea to have an intensive drafting phase before commissioning anyone to be the art leader. We have not seen all "directions" that we may take for the new theme yet, and yet appointing a leader would cause us to start following one.
[06:25] <sabdfl> msikma: the default theme stays Human until a new one has proven itself
[06:25] <Who_> but I think msikma's point still stands that it would be good to be aware of the plans of any artist in chief we elect - as it could shape the ability of future themes to prove themeselves
[06:26] <msikma> Yes, that's essentially what my point is.
[06:26] <sabdfl> the artist-in-chief will not be elected
[06:27] <Who_> when will they be chosen?
[06:27] <msikma> I realize this, and know that he will be appointed rather than elected by vote.
[06:27] <lapo> sabdfl: I'd like the art team to interact with desktop dev better
[06:27] <troy_s> Which is exactly my point in steering away from this whole traditional notion of themes.  Human reflects ALL of Ubuntu, and that means packaging, textural references, palette considerations, etc.
[06:27] <msikma> lapo: let's discuss that at a later time.
[06:27] <sabdfl> over the next week - i do like the idea of candidates putting up a portfolio, or vision description
[06:28] <troy_s> sabdfl: I am all for resume based approaches.
[06:28] <sabdfl> troy_s: the artist-in-chief would have to oversee the default theme, and also interact with developers on everything else, like usplash etc
[06:28] <lapo> sabdfl: speaking about icons for example in dapper there are 32x32 icons used all over the place, and we had no 32x32 in tango and tangerine at the time of release
[06:28] <troy_s> sabdfl: Now we are speaking the same language.
[06:28] <Who_> Selection on Resumes sounds great. Do we need to do any leadership selection today?
[06:28] <sabdfl> ok, i have only 15 minutes left
[06:29] <andreasn> sabdfl, sounds like a good idea
[06:29] <msikma> I'm for full-fledged mock-ups rather than portfolio-based. Then we could actually get a good idea of how those people intend to work on Ubuntu.
[06:29] <klepas> agreed
[06:29] <sabdfl> is there anybody who has made a lot of contributions and discussion on the list but is NOT here?
[06:29] <sabdfl> billy?
[06:30] <Who_> and also Viper550 - is he here?
[06:30] <klepas> sabdfl: i think it would be best to post to the ML and explain this resume-based approach that way
[06:30] <sabdfl> hey kwwii
[06:30] <klepas> such that we can at least cover the art leaders :)
[06:30] <troy_s> msikma:  By portfolio I believe sabdfl is more speaking about how to find an artist in chief.
[06:31] <kwwii> sabdfl: howdy :-)
[06:31] <kwwii> sorry for bing late
[06:31] <msikma> I still believe that it would be better to base the decision on visionary propositions for the future.
[06:31] <troy_s> msikma:  Proofs of principle are all standard for development.
[06:31] <cyanescent> what about the other positions, are they all doing resumes ?
[06:31] <sabdfl> what suggestions are there for appointing the art leadership team?
[06:31] <sabdfl> we want to cover timezones
[06:31] <sabdfl> we need steady heads, with good artistic eyes
[06:31] <msikma> Yes, but an artist-in-chief is going to strongly affect that, no doubt.
[06:31] <sabdfl> and an ability to keep up with a mailing list and be on irc enough to deal with matters arising
[06:32] <troy_s> msikma:  One would hope that someone with experience could show good judicial ombudsmanship.
[06:32] <Who_> I'd like it to be people who have been contributing work to the team so far
[06:32] <Who_> though that is a little unfair on those who have just joind :S
[06:33] <kwwii> I think that the art-in-chief is definitely needed to present a common goal for everyone, so we are all working in the same direction
[06:33] <troy_s> kwwii:  2nd that.
[06:33] <sabdfl> kwwii: the artist in chief will also not have a free hand
[06:33] <andreasn> well, we need to come up with good results in a resonable timeframe, so I think it would be best to take someone already involved
[06:33] <kwwii> every project has a maintainer, and this is, in some ways, a maintership job
[06:33] <sabdfl> they will have to pitch radical changes to the team, and to me
[06:34] <klepas> sabdfl: move on to the art leaders, one tier below the artist in chief?
[06:34] <Who_> klepas: agreed
[06:34] <sabdfl> klepas: other way around, the artist-in-chief is only for a release, but the art leadership would have a longer term role
[06:35] <klepas> yea
[06:35] <sabdfl> someone could be part of the leadership team, and take a turn being artist-in-chief
[06:35] <lukketto> but what are exactly the goals that the artist in chief have to reach?
[06:35] <sabdfl>   - leadership team
[06:35] <sabdfl>    - artist-in-chief
[06:35] <sabdfl>     - default theme team
[06:35] <sabdfl>     - other theme teams
[06:35] <sabdfl> make sense?
[06:35] <andreasn> yes
[06:35] <lapo> yes
[06:35] <klepas> sabdfl: you can describe the roal later on the ML
[06:35] <sabdfl> ok
[06:35] <klepas> along with the requirements for the resume-approach
[06:36] <Who_> yes, but am I right in thinking that for any particular release the artisit in chief has final say and overall responsibility, not the leadership team
[06:36] <Who_> ?
[06:36] <klepas> in the remaining time, can we decide the art leaders?
[06:36] <sabdfl> i'd like to note that the people who have take the most organised, systematic approach over the past two months have been:
[06:36] <troy_s> Where is frank?
[06:36] <sabdfl> troy_s, frank schoep, and cyanescent
[06:36] <sabdfl> that's a very good indicator of an ability to lead, or be artist-in-chief
[06:36] <klepas> would make sense to have these art leaders be the chief people working on the individual community themes?
[06:37] <cyanescent> why thank you I am flattered 
[06:37] <sabdfl> other strong contributors i'd like to highlight have been andreasn, kwwii
[06:37] <lapo> I think some more granulatiry would make sense for each team, for example, gtk-theme coordinator, icon theme coordinator, wallpaper and so on
[06:37] <sabdfl> i know i'm missing important contributors there
[06:37] <Who_> cyanescent: Do you post to the mailing list under a different name?
[06:38] <kwwii> lapo: you'd probably have to seperate that into all the *buntu's, which would get too big
[06:38] <ogra> sabdfl, yes our famous usplash designer 
[06:38] <ogra> sabdfl, his nick is omeg iirc
[06:38] <sabdfl> kubuntu and xubuntu and edubuntu probably need their own lead, who would basically be the lead of their default theme
[06:38] <msikma> I don't count myself among the active contributors since I've only made mock-ups for usplash and nothing else at the moment, barring some tiny things here and there which I'm not sure I've even published.
[06:39] <klepas> sabdfl: how shall we do this then in regards to the art leaders - cheif people working on the community themes or as lapo suggests a more granulatory approach
[06:39] <Who_> I feel Billy has been very active and also has a lot of themeing experience
[06:39] <sabdfl> lapo: that would become too bureaucratic
[06:39] <msikma> That reminds me, it would be great if the art team leading could also make sure that projects remain consistent. Such as the usplash thing; Kubuntu has a slightly different design, and an art team leadership should be able to tell the artist of a particular part of the system to also make Kubuntu versions.
[06:40] <sabdfl> i expect that the theme teams will have to look into the upstream community for the talent around gtk or qt theming
[06:40] <sabdfl> just as we did with human in dapper
[06:40] <sabdfl> they'll need to go and build those relationships
[06:40] <andreasn> sounds good
[06:40] <lapo> sabdfl: I'm not speaking of leadership, I'm speaking of someone who have the skills to coordinate the work
[06:40] <troy_s> msikma:  2nd that.
[06:41] <lapo> playing with gtkrcs is different then using the gimp
[06:41] <kwwii> lapo: it sounds like we would end up having lots of people responsible for only one part of the artwork...this won't lead to a nice whole picture
[06:41] <lapo> kwwii: yep, that's true
[06:41] <troy_s> kwwii:  2nd that.
[06:41] <klepas> maybe
[06:42] <klepas> it would make sense to have the art leaders (the tier below the artist in chief) as the chief people working on the community themes
[06:42] <Who_> While sabdfl is still around I would like to finalise the leadership team - do people see that as being possible?
[06:42] <sabdfl> i really don't want too many positions
[06:42] <klepas> and
[06:42] <sabdfl> the theme teams are exactly that
[06:42] <sabdfl> and they will need to recruit the skills they need
[06:42] <sabdfl> but not get too formalistic about it
[06:42] <lapo> ok, sounds fine
[06:42] <sabdfl> cool
[06:42] <andreasn> sounds good to me
[06:42] <klepas> have a list of people who specialise such that they can be contacted accordingly if others have issues :)
[06:42] <sabdfl> ok, i'm happy we are on the same page
[06:42] <msikma> Yes, me too
[06:43] <klepas> fair enough
[06:43] <Who_> :)
[06:43] <msikma> Don't we already have a list of interests?
[06:43] <sabdfl> i suspect the theme teams will be small (in terms of actual decision makers, not contributors) otherwise they will drive themselves nuts
[06:43] <sabdfl> i need to step away now
[06:43] <klepas> yea
[06:43] <klepas> thanks sabdfl 
[06:43] <msikma> Thanks. See you later, sabdfl.
[06:43] <andreasn> sabdfl, just one last question. Will you be at GUADEC?
[06:43] <sabdfl> i will discuss art leadership team membership with a couple of people
[06:43] <Who_> sabdfl: thanks - thinkgs are a lot clearer to me now
[06:44] <sabdfl> andreasn: no, i don't believe i can make it this year, i am going to apachecon instead
[06:44] <andreasn> sabdfl, ok, just checking
[06:44] <sabdfl> i hope we can reduce the traffic on the general art list
[06:44] <sabdfl> to overall strategy
[06:44] <lapo> yeah!
[06:44] <cyanescent> thank you sabdfl
[06:44] <sabdfl> with individual themes being more collaborative and less noise
[06:44] <sabdfl> thank you guys!
[06:44] <andreasn> thank you
[06:44] <kwwii> see you soon
[06:44] <klepas> cheers
[06:44] <lapo> thanks sabdfl
[06:45] <sabdfl> i'll mail the list next week inviting people to apply for, or nominate for, the art leadership team
[06:45] <klepas> Alright folks
[06:45] <msikma> Excellent.
[06:45] <klepas> let's finish the rest of the items on the agenda
[06:45] <sabdfl> klepas: will you please chair the rest of the meeting?
[06:45] <klepas> sure
[06:45] <sabdfl> thanks
[06:45] <sabdfl> cheers all
[06:45] <ogra> msikma, when did you change your nick, thats confusing :) i just realized who you are now
[06:45] <Who_> Ok - so those that remain here, without knowing things like the artwork leadership team and the artist in chief, what can we still effectgively discuss
[06:45] <klepas> do you guys want 2 minutes break?
[06:45] <msikma> ogra: sorry.
[06:45] <klepas> before we reconvene?
[06:45] <ogra> msikma, :)
[06:45] <msikma> Are you referring to the Launchpad one or the IRC one?
[06:45] <troy_s> wiki reorganization?
[06:46] <ogra> msikma, IRC indeed
[06:46] <msikma> Name reorganization :P
[06:46] <kwwii> I would like to discuss the idea of cross-desktop themeing
[06:46] <lapo> what0s the nexp point on the agenda klepas
[06:46] <klepas> folks
[06:46] <lapo> ?
[06:46] <klepas> Alright
[06:46] <lapo> kwwii: let's do the tango then :-)
[06:46] <msikma> Heh
[06:46] <klepas> art team leaders, as mark has pointed out will be the chief people working on the themes
[06:46] <andreasn> lapo, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-June/002108.html
[06:46] <Who_> kwwii: I'm interested there too - i think it's really important
[06:47] <msikma> I also have something that I would like to bring up later in regard to cross-consistency.
[06:47] <kwwii> well, I guess I have an opinion different than you guys :-)
[06:47] <klepas> so I recommend we post to the wiki or the ML in summary who is working on what theme
[06:47] <klepas> and from that see who are the chief people working on those
[06:47] <troy_s> klepas:  I think his idea of leadership goes deeper than that.
[06:48] <klepas> Yes, though note, we don't want too many positions as mentioned by mark
[06:48] <troy_s> klepas:  Themes are only a small percent.  sabdfl was talking on a much higher level of artwork.
[06:48] <kwwii> it would be nice to know what people are working on which projects
[06:48] <klepas> kwwii: yes
[06:48] <troy_s> kwwii:  Which was requested a good month to two months ago.
[06:48] <klepas> so i propose that's it for the art leaders
[06:48] <andreasn> kwwii, in regards to having all buntus using the same theme or making all apps rocking on the other buntus?
[06:48] <troy_s> kwwii:  With no response.
[06:48] <klepas> i'll write to the list asking for a summary from everyone
[06:48] <cyanescent> I still don't understand where the art team stands on Human -- it's still contacted, so how much input do we have on the "generic" wide theme
[06:49] <klepas> # Next item is the wiki
[06:49] <klepas> please see the points on the agenda in regard to this
[06:49] <troy_s> cyanescent:  Just think that there is _no_ art team.  Hence sabdfl has to do what needs done, that means contracting.
[06:49] <troy_s> sorry klep.
[06:49] <troy_s> carry on.
[06:49] <klepas> Any comments or suggestions in regard to that section (the wiki)
[06:50] <klepas> (please see the agenda)
[06:50] <msikma> Things have been shaping up lately.
[06:50] <msikma> There have been some structural changes for the better.
[06:50] <troy_s> Well I tend to agree with Et on the idea that all artwork things need to root from a common page.
[06:50] <msikma> We're in the right direction.
[06:50] <andreasn> well, right now there are lots of "here is some wallpaper I did yesterday, vote on this"-pages
[06:50] <andreasn> those should probably go
[06:50] <klepas> it needs to be simplified
[06:51] <troy_s> andreasn:  Yes.  Waste of time.  Who admins art.ubuntu.com -- they need to pick up some slack.
[06:51] <msikma> andreasn: there needs to be a page for just those things.
[06:51] <klepas> condense pages
[06:51] <Who_> troy_s: yea, I'd like it to be pretty heirachical
[06:51] <troy_s> klepas:  I think that's the goal.
[06:51] <lapo> if there will be 3 teams I think the siki organization should follow
[06:51] <klepas> good
[06:51] <msikma> There needs to be a sort of basket in which people can toss random things that they don't have the time for to figure out exactly where it should go.
[06:51] <kwwii> 3 teams?
[06:51] <troy_s> incoming / drafts notion.
[06:51] <troy_s> I think Et has that.
[06:51] <msikma> So a newbie to ubuntu art or one-time contributor could just toss his brand new icon in some page and then not worry about whether or not it'll be put in the right place.
[06:51] <troy_s> lapo:  I didn't read three teams.
[06:51] <troy_s> msikma:  2nd that.
[06:52] <klepas> we also need to note that people should not edit established guidelines and content without consulting the team first
[06:52] <troy_s> msikma:  Which is what the content management system was intended for -- art.ubuntu.com, but apparently the admins gave up.
[06:52] <cyanescent> No... the reason we are getting random submissions is because of a lack of documentation
[06:52] <klepas> that includes massive structural changes
[06:52] <troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
[06:52] <cyanescent> some newbie will always want to submit something
[06:52] <klepas> Therefore
[06:52] <cyanescent> but it is unclear what to submit
[06:52] <troy_s> cyanescent:  2nd that.
[06:52] <Who_> klepas: definitely - we had a rough structure and then it all went somewhere else! no email to the ML...
[06:52] <msikma> troy_s: perhaps, although it might be nice to state such things on the wiki as clearly as possible. In the end, we would like people to know exactly how to toss their art someplace as simple as possible.
[06:52] <klepas> I suggest we call for anyone who is willing to help restructure the wiki such that:
[06:52] <msikma> I've never used art.ubuntu.com so I'm not sure how simple it is.
[06:52] <klepas>  - it is simple to browse
[06:53] <troy_s> Who_:  I'll take the fall on that one.  The original structure was complicated and loosley set forth by Henrik I believe.
[06:53] <lapo> troy_s: perhaps I missed something, I thought human, tangerine and outdoors are more or less indipendent branches of the artteam
[06:53] <klepas> - less pages - condense information
[06:53] <troy_s> msikma:  Exactly my point ;)
[06:53] <troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
[06:53] <lapo> klepas: yeah
[06:53] <klepas> who is willing to help with that>
[06:53] <klepas> one or two people?
[06:53] <troy_s> klepas:  with existing links to mailing list howtos, irc howtos, and a special mailing list posting page guideline, page template, etc.
[06:53] <klepas> i'd be happy to help in this regard
[06:53] <msikma> By the way, does art.ubuntu.com cover everything art-related or just wallpapers and themes?
[06:53] <kwwii> I would suggest making a system that only excepts SVGs
[06:54] <Who_> I think Etienne is up for that, isn't he?
[06:54] <troy_s> Et isn't here :(  -- he has been doing a TREMENDOUS amount of work on trying to get things in order.
[06:54] <klepas> guys, can we stay on track
[06:54] <Who_> klepas: I was proposing Et as a 'wiki organiser' along with you - as I think he is up for it...
[06:54] <cyanescent> msikma: it seems just wallpapers and such
[06:54] <klepas> anyone else?
[06:54] <troy_s> Follow our chair please.
[06:55] <klepas> okay
[06:55] <cyanescent> Who_ 2nd that
[06:55] <klepas> i'll contact Et and chat to him about it
[06:55] <klepas> moving on
[06:55] <klepas> AUC
[06:55] <troy_s> I second klepas for wiki structure -- he is level headed and listens to others well.
[06:55] <Who_> kelpas: can we just ask what you have in mind?
[06:55] <klepas> Who_: in regards to AUC or the previous topic, the wiki?
[06:56] <Who_> the wiki, sorry - didn't get in quick enough
[06:56] <klepas> sure
[06:56] <klepas> the idea is we want to simplify the content so far
[06:56] <klepas> we have a lot of structural problems
[06:56] <klepas> and we want to condense the information
[06:56] <troy_s> klepas:  Et has a loose tier structure in his home wiki, you could adjust and post there as well.
[06:56] <klepas> i'm going to contact Et
[06:57] <klepas> and we're going to formalise something
[06:57] <klepas> and make it happen
[06:57] <troy_s> Can we just agree that between et and pascal, we at least have some ruling power.
[06:57] <klepas> during that time, it would be wise not for others to make huge changes to the wiki
[06:57] <troy_s> klepas:  2nd.
[06:57] <klepas> such that we can do our work
[06:57] <lapo> right
[06:57] <klepas> once we're done (2 weeks)
[06:57] <troy_s> klepas:  subject to leadership decisions of course... but that is our future and goes without saying.
[06:58] <klepas> we'll contact you all on the ML and tell how the hierachy on the wiki is
[06:58] <troy_s> klepas:  Do you think we can set a timeline for launchpad with spec
[06:58] <klepas> and people can discuss it
[06:58] <klepas> sure
[06:58] <troy_s> klepas:  with that 2 weeks?
[06:58] <klepas> within 2 and a half weeks
[06:58] <klepas> i prefer 3, personally
[06:58] <lapo> klepas: btw keep it as simple as possible please 
[06:58] <klepas> as i have exams coming up next week
[06:58] <troy_s> klepas:  so once we are past that, we can refine the spec further and upgrade to implementing.
[06:58] <klepas> lapo: definitely
[06:58] <lapo> cool
[06:58] <troy_s> lapo:  Pretty sure he will 
[06:58] <klepas> troy_s: that's the idea
[06:58] <troy_s> Neil?
[06:59] <klepas> Cool guys, thanks
[06:59] <troy_s> Launchpad knowledge needs to increase as well folks...
[06:59] <klepas> shall we move on?
[06:59] <troy_s> Launchpad has a bunch of tools to handle our tracking... 
[06:59] <cyanescent> yep... will work on it
[06:59] <klepas> Alright
[06:59] <klepas> # AUC
[06:59] <cyanescent> it all needs some hierarchy
[07:00] <troy_s> auc?
[07:00] <klepas> as stated in the agenda, AUC has numerous problems, however I think these should be fixed/addressed at a later point in time
[07:00] <troy_s> australian ubuntu conference?
[07:00] <troy_s> laf.
[07:00] <klepas> troy_s: art.ubuntu.com :)
[07:00] <troy_s> okie.
[07:00] <klepas> ;)
[07:00] <klepas> i think we need to prioritise
[07:00] <troy_s> klepas:  2nd.
[07:00] <klepas> and AUC is not the most important
[07:00] <lapo> right
[07:00] <troy_s> Who has admin rights there to post?
[07:00] <klepas> it important for artwork that does not make mainstream/universe
[07:00] <troy_s> I have ssh, but no mysql access.
[07:00] <lukacu> me too
[07:00] <lapo> the wiki is the most important thing to fix atm in my opinion
[07:01] <troy_s> klepas:  Can you update the main news to accomodate this notice?
[07:01] <klepas> yes
[07:01] <kwwii> klepas: so when you are done with the wiki you know what to do :-)
[07:01] <troy_s> klepas:  reference folks to the wiki
[07:01] <ogra> troy_s, hno, and me at least, formerly JaneW as well, but she left the company
[07:01] <klepas> i don't think i have access to that
[07:01] <ogra> *heno
[07:01] <klepas> but i'll check
[07:01] <troy_s> ogra:  I only have ssh to the sheel.
[07:01] <troy_s> shell even... not to the DB ax
[07:01] <klepas> sftp and admin via the CMS
[07:01] <ogra> troy_s, i only have access to the gui :) but i dont even know where i got the PW
[07:01] <troy_s> klepas:  Talk in asides.  My knowledge isn't great.
[07:02] <klepas> pardon?
[07:02] <troy_s> klepas:  You can educate me in an aside later.  Keep flowing.
[07:02] <klepas> ah, sure
[07:02] <klepas> sorry :)
[07:02] <klepas> So, in summary, AUC is not the important priority on our list
[07:02] <troy_s> No, but people who go there should know not to expect much.
[07:03] <troy_s> Forums -- who actively participates in the forums?
[07:03] <klepas> I'll see about mentioning this on AUC somewhere so people can read it then we can fix it later; discuss it at a later meeting.
[07:03] <andreasn> I check them out on a regular basis
[07:03] <andreasn> but I do not communicate there
[07:03] <klepas> troy_s: shall we do that later?
[07:03] <klepas> Launchpad is next on the agenda...
[07:03] <klepas> :)
[07:03] <troy_s> klepas:  Indeed.  Apologies!
[07:04] <klepas> no worries
[07:04] <klepas> # Launchpad
[07:04] <Who_> it seems to me ther eis a lot more ubuntu related work on gnome-look.org
[07:04] <cyanescent> So with this new leadership structure, will new memebers still be able to subscribe freely to launchpad ??
[07:04] <Who_> (late again - sorry)
[07:04] <ogra> cyanescent, why shouldnt they
[07:04] <cyanescent> this might become an issue, if we have a bunch of great suggestions that we can't track down afterwards
[07:04] <klepas> does everyone agree with the point mentioned in the agenda concerning Launchpad?
[07:04] <Who_> cyanescent: I think there should be two teams - 'ubuntu-art' and ubuntu-art-core'
[07:04] <lapo> klepas: yes
[07:05] <troy_s> Who_:  That's sabdfl's idea.
[07:05] <cyanescent> well... afaik the devel team is closed no ?
[07:05] <klepas> Launchpad is great for package and bug management and general organisation for the team. We should make use of it."
[07:05] <lapo> Who_: ubuntu-hard-core as well :-)
[07:05] <cyanescent> ugh
[07:05] <troy_s> cyanescent:  Give it week.  Mark will lead on that end.
[07:05] <klepas> guys
[07:05] <andreasn> have been using Launchpad a lot for bugs on tangerine and tango-icon-theme common
[07:05] <klepas> troy_s: you have admin rights to the artwork team on launchpad?
[07:05] <cyanescent> yes... launchpad will need a great deal of work
[07:06] <troy_s> Yes, as does who_, etc.
[07:06] <cyanescent> can everyone who hasn't yet subscribed, subscribe themeselves
[07:06] <lapo> klepas: I have experience in launchpad bug tracking, so it is important to have the right packetization of the stuff the art team is going to produce
[07:06] <troy_s> cyan:  Wiki can address that as well as mailing list.
[07:06] <klepas> Good
[07:06] <troy_s> lapo:  very good.
[07:06] <cyanescent> I am adding all these suggestions from the mailing list archives, and can't seem to get everyone's email up
[07:06] <Who_> One of the major problems I see with out existence as a Launchpad team is that people asssign bugs to us that are actually for the contractors who do human. We need to communicate better with them if we are going to keep things as they are
[07:06] <klepas> i propose this then
[07:07] <klepas> That those who have admin rights to Launchpad and know it, teach those who have/will get admin rights  :)
[07:07] <troy_s> who_:  absolutely.
[07:07] <troy_s> klepas:  working on it... you guys have seen the launchpad howto i stuffed out in a pinch?
[07:07] <klepas> so people knowing bug tracking can show the chief people of the themes how to manage bugs filed agains them, for example
[07:07] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHowTo (or Howto)
[07:07] <klepas> troy_s: yes, thanks :)
[07:07] <Who_> klepas: sounds good. At the moment I believe only Mark can give (and take away) launchpad admin rights
[07:07] <ogra> Who_, if you differ between ubuntu-art and ubuntu-core-art thats no problem
[07:07] <troy_s> Who_:  No.  Owner can.
[07:08] <ogra> Human stuff gets just assigned to ubuntu-core-art then
[07:08] <Who_> troy_s: who is owner?
[07:08] <troy_s> ogra:  If we are all on the same page, we follow what core dictates, then work from there.
[07:08] <troy_s> Who_:  Mark switched ownership to me for some reason.
[07:08] <Who_> ogra: Sounds good :). How do we let anyone who actually assigns teams to bugs know that ?
[07:08] <ogra> troy_s, Who_ was concerned ybout getting Human bugs assigned to the common art team
[07:08] <lapo> so what exactly we should do with launchpad considering that there's the wiki as well
[07:09] <klepas> bug tracking
[07:09] <klepas> package management
[07:09] <klepas> calendar
[07:09] <lapo> should we care most the wiki or launchpad, the functions are overlapping somewhere
[07:09] <ogra> Who_, you make a default subscription of ubuntu-core-art to all packages concerning Human
[07:09] <Who_> lapo: Launchpad seems designed to be used alongside  a wiki
[07:09] <klepas> other organisation
[07:09] <troy_s> lapo:  MOST people I think start at the wiki, so knowledge should flow from there.  For us, our mailing list and Launchpad should be our primary recourse.
[07:09] <troy_s> Who_:  Exactly!
[07:09] <cyanescent> lapo: I think launchpad has a wiki as well... 
[07:09] <ogra> Who_, then -core-art gets notified automatiaclly
[07:10] <troy_s> ogra:  You can subbranch.  art-core can have a branch that links to ubuntu-art
[07:10] <Who_> I see very much the wiki to be the place for all the information. Launchpad provides us a structure and some organisational tools
[07:10] <cyanescent> IMO we should put the existing wiki on the launchpad wiki
[07:10] <klepas> We will work on the wiki more for the moment
[07:10] <ogra> troy_s, that too
[07:10] <cyanescent> would make things less confusing for casual contributors
[07:10] <troy_s> cyanescent:  Launchpad wiki is solely for docs.
[07:10] <cyanescent> can't it be expanded ?
[07:10] <troy_s> cyanescent:  wiki.ubuntu.com is all things ubuntu -- a central repository of knowledge.
[07:11] <klepas> troy_s: can you please formalise a mail to the mailing list outlining what launchpad will be used for?
[07:11] <lapo> well launchpad as a lot of funtionality, and there is the wiki and th ml, I fear that he art team will spend more time writing stuff then doing art
[07:11] <klepas> such that people can distinguish it's uses from the wiki
[07:11] <troy_s> lapo:  Documentation is the key.  You can't make a movie without a script.  You can't make a script without a treatment. 
[07:11] <cyanescent> klepas: that should go in a wiki, because all ML goes in the archives
[07:11] <cyanescent> so only useful for current members
[07:11] <troy_s> lapo:  Same applies for other creatives as well :)
[07:11] <klepas> cyanescent: good point
[07:12] <Who_> lapo: I think that the leadership team and the artist in chief will be more concerned with LP and the WIKI while the people contributing will do just that
[07:12] <ogra> lapo, thats only true for initial setup, once you have all set up and specified there is not much to write
[07:12] <troy_s> Nice to see this all coming together.
[07:12] <klepas> Who_: about right
[07:12] <klepas> shall we move on?
[07:12] <troy_s> ogra:  Exactly.
[07:13] <cyanescent> Shouldn't we cover some more on off-disk art
[07:13] <lapo> not sure guys
[07:13] <Who_> Mark seemed to want to have stuff uploaded to LP - is that right? Do we keep LP as a repository for art then?
[07:13] <cyanescent> since this is what we'll be seen doing from the oustide world 
[07:13] <troy_s> who_:  I think we can deal with that on mailing list.
[07:13] <Who_> troy_s: okie, after the positions have ben filled, I guess...
[07:14] <lapo> troy_s: but the ml must have less traffic then now
[07:14] <Who_> cyanescent: You mean publicity, etc?
[07:14] <troy_s> lapo:  Good point.  Can we priortize a wiki page for mailing list headings and such, and RELEVANT posts?
[07:14] <cyanescent> yes... it seems we've been bunked out of human... so we should concentrate on marketting
[07:14] <troy_s> who_:  Yes... paris will clear this up.
[07:14] <cyanescent> CDs 
[07:14] <cyanescent> box art
[07:14] <klepas> move on...?
[07:14] <cyanescent> etcet 
[07:14] <lapo> perhaps having a different ml for art team coordination would be nice
[07:14] <ogra> cyanescent, i think that will still be done by an agency 
[07:14] <Who_> Mark gave us the name of someone we need to interact with about that
[07:15] <Who_> if we wanted to do it
[07:15] <ogra> Who_, silbs (Jane Silber) 
[07:15] <troy_s> ogra:  It SHOULD be done inside.  He went outside because it was NOT getting done.
[07:15] <troy_s> ogra:  Lack of formal structure once again.
[07:15] <Who_> However, the way I have read the situation is that we need to prove ourselves as a team this release, before taking on more responisbilities (i.e branching out into publicity etc for the next one)
[07:15] <lapo> troy_s: too work required I believe
[07:15] <lapo> s/too/too much/
[07:16] <troy_s> lapo:  Not really... we have a large base of artists...
[07:16] <troy_s> lapo:  Docteam handles the text.
[07:16] <troy_s> lapo:  It is just coordination etc.
[07:16] <Who_> and also people keen to work on that kind of art
[07:16] <cyanescent> too many artists with a different vision
[07:16] <klepas> Folks, can we stay on track
[07:16] <troy_s> cyan:  Exactly.  No structure.
[07:16] <klepas> Please
[07:16] <troy_s> Listen to chair.
[07:16] <klepas> let's cover this later
[07:16] <lapo> yep klepas, sorry, shall we move on?
[07:17] <Who_> yea, we seem to be over LP
[07:17] <klepas> right now we want to discuss the technologies we use, leadership and our goals
[07:17] <klepas> thus, next on the list is the mailing list
[07:17] <Who_> I think leadersip and goals are going to have to wait till Mark notifies the ML
[07:17] <klepas> do people agree with what is written in the agenda in regard to this
[07:17] <highvoltage> a l'aeroport, s'il vous plait!
[07:17] <klepas> "The Mailing List is our primary method of communnication."
[07:17] <kwwii> the ML should mainly be for announcements, and more major things, I think
[07:18] <troy_s> PROPOSAL:  Can we clearly outline a page at the wiki for captial text SUBTITLES (for searching and such -- ask Neil) and RELEVANT posting?
[07:18] <highvoltage> (sorry)
[07:18] <lapo> klepas: yep, but now the ubuntu art list is very difficult too follow
[07:18] <kwwii> it is not the way to carry on an art discussion
[07:18] <klepas> Note though, we do not want too much activity on it!
[07:18] <Who_> I think it is the best way to communicate with everyone
[07:18] <klepas> So we want to tone it down
[07:18] <lapo> klepas: it should be something like ddl
[07:18] <Who_> ddl?
[07:18] <klepas> ddl?
[07:18] <andreasn> gnome desktop devel list
[07:18] <lapo> sorry, desktop-devel-list
[07:18] <troy_s> klepas:  Much like launchpad -- You post a NOTIFY, with a wiki link.
[07:19] <Who_> and then everyone comments on the wiki?
[07:19] <msikma> I'm unfortunately really too tired and hungry to keep following the discussion at this point, guys. I'm sure you'll finish it without my help just fine. I'll read the logs later. I'm gonna go make some food for myself now.
[07:19] <troy_s> klepas:  Formal categories... if you can't fit it -- DONT post.
[07:19] <lapo> troy_s: not sure about that, you still force people to read all the stuff there
[07:19] <klepas> msikma: cheers and thanks for attending :)
[07:19] <klepas> Alright
[07:19] <troy_s> lapo:  I filter my [mailing list titles] , its easy and effective with heading based codes.
[07:19] <lapo> ciao msikma
[07:19] <troy_s> night sik!
[07:19] <msikma> Yeah, see you guys later
[07:19] <troy_s> take care.
[07:19] <klepas> So, if I say the following will people agree:
[07:19] <msikma> It's not night yet :P
[07:19] <ogra> ciao msikma 
[07:20] <lapo> troy_s: that's not the point, we need lesser traffic
[07:20] <msikma> I'll be back later, then.
[07:20] <lapo> less
[07:20] <troy_s> lapo:  I disagree.  I think we need more directed traffic that accomplishes our goals.
[07:20] <troy_s> lapo:  I don't mind traffic if it is on topic, scannable, and organized.
[07:20] <ogra> lapo, thats very hard to achieve, we try this on ubuntu-devel since 2 years with not much success
[07:20] <Who_> troy_s: agreed
[07:20] <klepas> "The Mailing list should be used as our primary method of general communication, through announcements and simple, small messages with, if possible references to the wiki. We do not want too much traffic over the list."
[07:20] <ogra> lapo, if the list exists, people will post
[07:20] <lapo> troy_s: I have to make icons, If I spend more a lot of time on the ml, I can't do icons, simple
[07:20] <cyanescent> well... an ML can always turn busy -- I think we need more than one ML
[07:21] <cyanescent> maybe a discussion on, and a serious one
[07:21] <lapo> cyanescent: right
[07:21] <ogra> ubuntu-art-announce 
[07:21] <Who_> cyanescent: great
[07:21] <troy_s> lapo:  Sorry then, but we _do_ need central up to the minute communications.  And that mailing list is the ONLY way to achieve transparent democracy where it is needed.
[07:21] <klepas> of course, there can be exceptions, and discussions concerning announcements
[07:21] <andreasn> or we could try to have more discussion on irc perhaps?
[07:21] <klepas> unless we want a separate mailing list
[07:21] <klepas> but i doubt that would fix things
[07:21] <troy_s> cyanescent:  Good idea.  Notifications and discussion?
[07:22] <cyanescent> yep, so its decided
[07:22] <troy_s> klepas:  I agree... if we just topic it.
[07:22] <troy_s> cyan:  Not so fast, I think klepas has a point.
[07:22] <cyanescent> ok so its not
[07:22] <Who_> troy_s: I agree - how else can we involve everyondy (is that still our aim, after these leadership changes?)
[07:22] <cyanescent> =)
[07:22] <klepas> because then we move the current problem and create a new list for announcements
[07:22] <troy_s> klepas:  Bingo.
[07:22] <klepas> we still have that massively busy list
[07:22] <Who_> irc is problematic because it is too easy for people to miss im,portant thinsg
[07:22] <troy_s> klepas:  Can we at least _try_ the topic based approach with a _written_ guideline?
[07:22] <klepas> it does not go away because of that
[07:22] <troy_s> who_:  2nd that.
[07:22] <troy_s> klepas:  2nd that.
[07:23] <lapo> klepas: it is how it worked in gnome, do a new ml, when it get too much noise, do a new one, and so, not an elegant solution but it worked
[07:23] <klepas> Therefore do people agree:?
[07:23] <ogra> well, it didnt lower the traffic on ubuntu-devel when we created ubuntu-devel-announce, but people who only want relevant info only subscribe to announce 
[07:23] <troy_s> klepas:  But to be fair, it has spurts of activity that are completely unrelated.  We need to cop it.
[07:23] <klepas> "The Mailing list should be used as our primary method of general communication, through announcements and simple, small messages with, if possible references to the wiki. We do not want too much traffic over the list."
[07:23] <cyanescent> Well... there will always be newbies who ignore the header based approach
[07:23] <troy_s> lapo:  Gnome is hardly the epitome of organization :)
[07:23] <kwwii> klepas: I agree with that
[07:23] <lapo> uhm that's right :-)
[07:23] <Who_> kelpas: yes. great.
[07:24] <lapo> klepas: agreed, the point is how to reduce the traffic :-)
[07:24] <troy_s> cyan:  as a fellow who has done archive work recently
[07:24] <klepas> however this does not mean we stop people from having ontopic discussions concerning announcements and occasional new ideas
[07:24] <troy_s> cyan:  would headings help?
[07:24] <Who_> I think we need some documentation or a link to a howto about a header based approach :S
[07:24] <troy_s> who_:  2nd.
[07:24] <cyanescent> yes headings would help... but only for the experienced
[07:24] <troy_s> cyan:  assuming that the experienced are going to sort when needed.
[07:24] <klepas> ultimately we want to reduce traffic, better headings/mail subjects but not the ideas that come over the ML
[07:24] <troy_s> kwwii:  adieu.
[07:24] <andreasn> bye kwwii 
[07:24] <cyanescent> there is a great deal of random traffic, which could really be done elsewhere I reckon
[07:24] <lapo> ciao kwwii
[07:24] <Who_> kelpas: absaloutrely not. Art needs to be discussed, I don't think we can get around having mail abnout it!
[07:24] <troy_s> klepas:  Exactly.
[07:25] <klepas> Good
[07:25] <cyanescent> not every artist is a mail hacker
[07:25] <troy_s> klepas:  Not so much less, but more structure.
[07:25] <klepas> so we can agree with that statement in ""
[07:25] <klepas> i'll make it formal
[07:25] <klepas> and make sure that goes on to the wiki in our guidelines page
[07:25] <troy_s> Cyanescent:  Very true. 
[07:25] <Who_> people - what do we think about using art.ubuntu.com as a way of discussing ideas/work - it would move the traffic to forums, etc
[07:25] <cyanescent> ciao kwii
[07:25] <klepas> so, can we move on?
[07:25] <troy_s> klepas:  If you can at least tackle some sort of subject that would help
[07:25] <klepas> IRC is next on the list
[07:25] <troy_s> klepas:  That loose draft design doc has some headings, but they are most certainly not even close to exhaustive or complete.
[07:25] <lapo> Who_: it will be anouther thing people should follow, not sure about it
[07:26] <klepas> this should be small to cover
[07:26] <troy_s> lapo:  Yes.
[07:26] <cyanescent> Who_: I get the impression most ppl on AUC don't find the artteam wiki
[07:26] <klepas> Guys, IRC
[07:26] <troy_s> lapo:  As it stands now, we have wiki for information -- and mailing list / launchpad stem from that effectively.
[07:26] <cyanescent> there needs to be more info
[07:26] <lapo> we need a way to organiza our work, w/o consuming too much artists time
[07:26] <klepas> from the agenda:
[07:26] <troy_s> sorry... Chair.
[07:26] <klepas> > 5. IRC. #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out,  
[07:26] <klepas> > collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing  
[07:26] <klepas> > while #ubuntu-meeting will be for our meetings. Please do not make  
[07:26] <klepas> > important choices that affect the team in IRC unless of course it's  
[07:26] <klepas> > part of a meeting. :)
[07:26] <klepas> Are we in agreement?
[07:26] <andreasn> yeah
[07:27] <Who_> yea.
[07:27] <lapo> I think we should encourage meeting on irc istead of very long trheads on the ml
[07:27] <troy_s> klepas:  Simply can't.  IMportant decisions have their place in Launchpad.
[07:27] <ogra> please dont forget to mail the fridge about your meerting times btw
[07:27] <andreasn> and we could all try to hang out more in #ubuntu-artwork if new people arrive
[07:27] <klepas> troy_s: we're doing decision making here, now :)
[07:27] <troy_s> ogra:  Good point.  Let's keep them at a minimum too.  Timezones stink for everyone.
[07:27] <klepas> lapo: also a good point
[07:27] <klepas> will add as well
[07:27] <troy_s> klepas:  You know what I mean ;)
[07:27] <cyanescent> yep .. we also need to mention our meetings on fridge -- this one wasn't and could have been booked
[07:27] <klepas> :)
[07:27] <klepas> cyanescent: yes
[07:27] <troy_s> andreasn:  2nd that.
[07:27] <ogra> troy_s, the fridge is essentialy used to "book" #ubuntu-meeting for a certain timeframe 
[07:27] <andreasn> lapo, agreed
[07:27] <klepas> Okay, that's IRC covered
[07:28] <troy_s> ogra:  Yep.
[07:28] <lapo> more meetings needed then, do you guys agree?
[07:28] <troy_s> lapo:  Disagree.
[07:28] <klepas> definitely
[07:28] <klepas> once a month :)
[07:28] <klepas> minimum
[07:28] <lapo> cool
[07:28] <troy_s> Eek.
[07:28] <troy_s> Count me out.
[07:28] <klepas> :)
[07:28] <andreasn> once a month sounds sane
[07:28] <cyanescent> lol
[07:28] <troy_s> I think that is a grave mistake.
[07:29] <troy_s> but alas, this is a democracy.
[07:29] <klepas> of course, we can also call upon the chief people working on their themes to report
[07:29] <klepas> and discuss that
[07:29] <ogra> troy_s, how do you want to communicate then ? 
[07:29] <klepas> so for example:
[07:29] <cyanescent> Well at least it gets logged...
[07:29] <troy_s> Ogra:   I prefer existing documented archived traceable mailing list.
[07:29] <klepas> we can have one IRC meeting sometime down the track concerning the tango artwork theme
[07:29] <troy_s> Ogra:  So that other's can easily trace the discourse.
[07:29] <ogra> troy_s, ML is very delayed if you do work as a team
[07:29] <lapo> klepas: go go go :-)
[07:29] <troy_s> Ogra:  And people who aren't here get to contribute -- like key figures who couldn't show up today.
[07:29] <klepas> in an IRC meeting we can get a lot done in just a few hours
[07:30] <ogra> troy_s, usually all #ubuntu-* channels are logged, you can look up everything there
[07:30] <cyanescent> on IRC no one is ever around... can't understand how a newbie is supposed to get help
[07:30] <troy_s> Ogra:  I disagree.  Mail is primary in most businesses.
[07:30] <Who_> I think, if we look how important this meeting in and how many key people are missing we can see they aren't great for letting everyone have their day
[07:30] <klepas> and it's great to chat once in a while realtime :)
[07:30] <cyanescent> meetings may make sense in that regard
[07:30] <troy_s> Who_:  2nd!
[07:30] <klepas> Which!
[07:30] <ogra> troy_s, not in all other ubuntu areas ... main workplace here is IRC 
[07:30] <klepas> is why we could focus meetings on specifics
[07:30] <troy_s> klepas:  I am ALL for chatting, not decision making.
[07:30] <klepas> such as specific updates on themes
[07:30] <lapo> I have to run guys, andreasn, klepas would you pass me your notes so I can do my homework? :-)
[07:30] <Who_> I think that it is true we can get a lot _done_ in irc - as far as WORK is concerned, but not as far as decisions
[07:31] <andreasn> lapo, sure
[07:31] <troy_s> ogra:  Well I tend to deal with things that need to make money, not for folks who have 24hr access to the net.
[07:31] <troy_s> lapo:  No this is a meeting.  See my point :)
[07:31] <klepas> sure
[07:31] <klepas> i will put it to the mailing list after i sleep
[07:31] <troy_s> who_:  And launchpad / mailing list has tools.  Launchpad in particular.
[07:31] <ogra> troy_s, well, i'm a bit biased as ubuntu dev, my workplace is called #edubuntu and #ubuntu-devel
[07:31] <lapo> troy_s: I can see your poin, but my gf can not :-)
[07:31] <lapo> ciao ciao
[07:31] <troy_s> who_:  We just need to abide by them.
[07:31] <klepas> okay
[07:32] <troy_s> ogra:  That works for the folks who can attend.  Not for people with families, education, children, etc.
[07:32] <klepas> how about this adjustment to that statement from the agenda: (give me a minute to type)
[07:32] <troy_s> ogra:  Careers away from computers.  Etc.
[07:32] <troy_s> Go chair.
[07:32] <ogra> troy_s, but by the looks of it, all other ubuntu areas coordinate via IRC as well, i dont understand why the art team should differ
[07:32] <troy_s> you guys aren't helping my packing.
[07:32] <troy_s> ogra:  Let me tell you -- if you want me to recruit real folks who make a living doing this sort of thing -- and you might not -- then IRC is not an option.
[07:33] <troy_s> ogra:  But alas, that is for the democracy to decide.
[07:33] <cyanescent> Because artists don't use a keyboard 24/7
[07:33] <Who_> I think it is true that many artists are less able to hang out on IRC all day in the way devs are - though I may be wrong...
[07:33] <ogra> troy_s, its not only about making artwork, its also about participating iun the community imho
[07:33] <troy_s> Agreement 100%
[07:33] <troy_s> ogra:  Agree with you.
[07:33] <troy_s> ogra:  But practically speaking, as an example, I have a family 
[07:33] <troy_s> ogra:  a career that i work 14-16 hours per day average.
[07:33] <ogra> troy_s, but apparently you are here talking to me :)
[07:34] <cyanescent> ogra: have you seen the activity in #ubuntu-artwork ?
[07:34] <troy_s> ogra:  I respected klepas post.  I can't do too many.
[07:34] <ogra> cyanescent, i havent looked into the artwork channel recently, no
[07:34] <klepas> IRC . #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out, collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing and general chatting. #ubuntu-meeting is for our meetings. Please do not make important decisions that affect the entire team in IRC unless of course it is in a meeting. We encourage a call for a meeting once a month though this might be specific to just one part of the team working on something like a specific theme
[07:34] <troy_s> ogra:  Perhaps you are correct.  I am merely suggesting that perhaps there are alternatives.
[07:34] <klepas> there we go
[07:34] <klepas> agree?
[07:34] <cyanescent> ogra: it's dead.... that is why there is a little antipathy towards it
[07:34] <troy_s> klepas:  Should we subject major decisions to Launchpad votes?
[07:34] <andreasn> klepas, agreed
[07:35] <klepas> yes
[07:35] <cyanescent> klepas: 2nd that
[07:35] <klepas> votes should be done using LP
[07:35] <Who_> klepas: yes. we can't make decisions involving everyone in IRC every month!
[07:35] <klepas> but simple decisions that can be done via IRC is good
[07:35] <troy_s> klepas:  Ok so IRC is below Launch then... which means that we should at least mailing list the hot topics here and make sure EVERYONE is in the know.
[07:35] <ogra> cyanescent, so bring it to life again, when i was there daily (until about 3 months ago) it started to become a bit more busy
[07:35] <klepas> Who_: pray, why not?
[07:35] <troy_s> Who_:  2nd that.
[07:35] <cyanescent> troy_s : launchpad votes sound like a step forwards
[07:35] <Madpilot> morning all - running a bit late, sorry about that
[07:35] <troy_s> klepas:  I agree with Who_, but again...
[07:35] <Who_> because I don't think everyone can be expected to make an IRC meeting once a month - give our timezones!
[07:35] <troy_s> MAD!!!
[07:35] <troy_s> Greetings mad.
[07:36] <troy_s> Who_:  100% 2nd.
[07:36] <klepas> Who_: other teams do it
[07:36] <troy_s> klepas:  Again, I suggest that you not look to the other teams as the epitome of architecture and structure.
[07:36] <klepas> and i think if we split to make it the meeting pertaining to specific part of the team (those working on X and Y) it would make it easier
[07:36] <ogra> in edubuntu we have two alternating times to cover all TZs, works pretty well
[07:36] <andreasn> what kinds of decitions are we talking about here?
[07:36] <Who_> klepas: I think other teams are more 'computer centric'. 
[07:36] <troy_s> klepas:  There are many folks who can't contribute to open source projects merely because of the methods of communication and contribution.
[07:37] <klepas> okay
[07:37] <troy_s> Up to this point, computer folks find IRC great.  I like IRC, but it is a _long_ way from effective.
[07:37] <klepas> Monthly meetings with minimum impact decisions concerning the art team as a whole then
[07:37] <klepas> such that big decisions are handled via LP
[07:37] <Who_> klepas: Yeas, splitting meetinsgs down is good - so for example each contributor may be needed every 2 months...
[07:37] <andreasn> hm, ok then
[07:37] <troy_s> klepas:  Can we at least have them in ubuntu-artwork then?
[07:37] <ogra> troy_s, well, ubuntu is built on IRC
[07:37] <troy_s> ogra:  *sigh*, and look where the art is at.
[07:37] <ogra> troy_s, i wouldnt say its not effective :)
[07:38] <troy_s> ogra:  On the contrary, I would.
[07:38] <klepas> we're here now
[07:38] <troy_s> ogra:  It has worked marvels in smaller subsets, but horrible in others.
[07:38] <klepas> okay, so
[07:38] <troy_s> klepas:  But you are missing the point, where is frank, et, etc?
[07:38] <troy_s> klepas:  And those folks are important.
[07:38] <Who_> klepas: sounds good. I think IRC is great for that kind of thing, for collaboration between sub-teams etc :)
[07:38] <klepas> final ammendment to the statement:
[07:38] <troy_s> klepas:  100% for brainstorming it is terrific.
[07:38] <ogra> troy_s, yes, back when the first artteam approach was made they didnt want to start work before a groupware server was set up... else we'd have one already 
[07:39] <ogra> i dont see why the way *how* you communicate is so important for artworkers
[07:39] <cyanescent> troy_s: second that -- we are missing essential contributors
[07:39] <troy_s> ogra:  Let's just say that on the whole, artwork in Ubuntu is a complete dismal failure -- Mark has outsourced much of it.
[07:39] <klepas> IRC . #ubuntu-artwork is for helping each other out, collaboration between people working on similar/the same thing and general chatting. #ubuntu-meeting is for our meetings. Please do not make important decisions that affect the entire team in IRC unless of course it is in a meeting. We encourage a call for a meeting once a month though this might be specific to just one part of the team working on something like a specific theme
[07:39] <ogra> (or with which tool)
[07:39] <klepas> this way, with only about 2-4 people meeting for specific things
[07:39] <troy_s> ogra:  And I might add that Mark has outsourced a few areas outside of art, so if IRC were the end all, it would work flawlessly.  It doesn't.
[07:39] <klepas> we ensure a larger chance that those can work something out
[07:40] <ogra> troy_s, community artwork wasnt existent at all until recently (apart from edubuntu where the artteam is very active)
[07:40] <troy_s> klepas:  Ok then repository based?
[07:40] <klepas> and high impact decisions are handled via LP
[07:40] <cyanescent> need to cook for a bit... will be idling
[07:40] <Who_> klepas: Good - maybe just a reference that major decisions must be thorugh the ML and/or LP?
[07:40] <klepas> and are announced on the ML
[07:40] <troy_s> klepas:  Meaning we need to see the output on a regular posted basis... that means a secretary who can attend them :)
[07:40] <klepas> does that sound okay?
[07:40] <troy_s> Who_:  2nd that.  Decisions via Launch.
[07:40] <klepas> no, those who meet can keep minutes and post the result on the ML
[07:41] <ogra> troy_s, mark has outsources simply beacuse there was *nobody* wanting to do the artwork (or the ones that wanted only discussed how their groupware server had to look like)
[07:41] <Who_> klepas: yes :)
[07:41] <klepas> No, major decisions in launchpad
[07:41] <troy_s> ogra:  There are 100000s of people who want to do the artwork.  They don't know how.  They don't know where.  They don't know.  There is no structure yet.
[07:41] <klepas> decisions for example, concerning themed packages like tango-artwork are handled either via the ML or in a meeting through those 3-4 attending
[07:41] <ogra> troy_s, they never showed up anywhere until mid dapper
[07:42] <troy_s> ogra:  I disagree... I have been trying to figure out how the art team works since before warty :)
[07:42] <troy_s> ogra:  It was SLOW going too... 
[07:42] <ogra> troy_s, whom did you contact about it  ?
[07:42] <klepas> Folks, there is no point breaking out skulls over how things were or weren't working
[07:42] <ogra> yeah
[07:42] <troy_s> klepas:  Agree.
[07:42] <klepas> you can take it up later, please
[07:42] <andreasn> agreed
[07:42] <klepas> just one more thing and we can get some sleep (in my case)
[07:43] <klepas> # Goals
[07:43] <klepas> > Our primary goal is, although extremely simple and quite obvious,  
[07:43] <Who_> The more the meeting progresses the more I see a need for art.ubuntu.com as a way of allowing _new_ contributors to contribute work for us to 'harvest' for potential inclusion....
[07:43] <klepas> > something we have not managed to do: get our artwork, created  
[07:43] <klepas> > collaboratively into mainstream!
[07:43] <klepas> >
[07:43] <klepas> > We can achieve this if we examine the existing artwork and their  
[07:43] <klepas> > styles, locate areas that are lacking in consistent artwork, or  
[07:43] <klepas> > artwork in general, prioritise and then collaboratively work to  
[07:43] <klepas> > create some rocking artwork for Edgy and beyond!
[07:43] <troy_s> I think that will require design docs.
[07:43] <troy_s> So that we can optimize contributions.
[07:43] <klepas> I think, I can say for all of us, we agree
[07:43] <klepas> those guidelines will come
[07:44] <troy_s> Yes.
[07:44] <klepas> and will be part of the restructured wiki
[07:44] <klepas> Et and I will make sure those happen :)
[07:44] <Who_> kelpas: good. These will depend on the chosen artist in chief - as their resume will have many goals in it
[07:44] <troy_s> We also need to agree
[07:44] <troy_s> that despite our differences
[07:44] <troy_s> we plan on working 100% for the Ubuntu project in whole.
[07:44] <troy_s> Not subject to fracturing etc.
[07:45] <troy_s> Kind of like a 1000 people pulling on a rock -- everyone needs to communicate effectively to make it move in a direction.
[07:45] <klepas> of course :)
[07:45] <klepas>  the results of the meeting now in terms of the use of the different developing technologies available to us will also be part of those guidelines (tech. A is used for this)
[07:45] <troy_s> Perfect.
[07:45] <troy_s> Phew.
[07:45] <Who_> klepas: can we briefly revisit AUC when whe are done with goals?
[07:45] <klepas> i think that's it Who_ 
[07:45] <klepas> before you continue though
[07:46] <klepas> one more notice
[07:46] <troy_s> who_:  I think we agreed that AUC was basically backburnered until we sort our stuffs out.
[07:46] <klepas> Thanks folks! I'll write up the minutes in summary, link to the logs and post it to the ML
[07:46] <klepas> I'll contact Et
[07:46] <andreasn> great
[07:46] <klepas> and also mention the ML that we request a cease of major wiki edits
[07:46] <klepas> as we will be working on it
[07:46] <troy_s> klepas:  ONe note:
[07:46] <Who_> troy_s: I was for that, but as my opinion has changed as a result of what people have said I thought others' might have done too
[07:47] <klepas> we will also write up a bunch of guidelines in reference to the decisions reached this past hour
[07:47] <Who_> thanks klepas for chairing!
[07:47] <troy_s> klepas:  If you use headings and such for each topic, we can utilize the inherent wiki table of contents to list everything as opposed to manually having to set stuffs up.
[07:47] <troy_s> WHo_:  I think a CMS is required... but now we need to get our three basic priorities sorted.  
[07:47] <Who_> a CMS for AUC?
[07:47] <klepas> troy_s: sounds cool. my wiki knowledge of moinmoin is limited but i think we'll figure it out :)
[07:48] <troy_s> WHo_:  AUC is a CMS 
[07:48] <troy_s> Who_:  ALbeit not a great one.  Diku (sp?) is better.
[07:48] <klepas> So, as some might not be interested in the further AUC talks
[07:48] <troy_s> klepas:  Look to your partner :)
[07:48] <klepas> let me say cheers for coming
[07:48] <troy_s> Ajourn?
[07:48] <klepas> and thanks for everyone
[07:48] <troy_s> Thanks for chairing klepas.
[07:48] <Madpilot> troy_s, AFAIK a.u.c is built on the same CMS as the entire ubuntu.com main site uses
[07:48] <klepas> Ajourn, essentially
[07:48] <andreasn> thanks klepas 
[07:48] <klepas> thank you, i'd be happy to do it again
[07:48] <Who_> All I was going to say is: could it be the focus for many of the people who submit ubuntu-themed work for other sites like gnome-look.org, and then we can 'harvest' from it. It can be a way for people to get involved - whivh I think we quite unanimosly agree is difficult atm
[07:48] <troy_s> Madpilot:  I heard a murmor that is was based on early art.gnome work.
[07:48] <troy_s> Thanks all.
[07:48] <troy_s> To the future.
[07:49] <klepas> troy_s: affirmative
[07:49] <troy_s> who_:  Terrific idea.
[07:49] <andreasn> Who_, good idea
[07:49] <troy_s> who_:  Centralize at gnome-look perhaps... I think that is a wise suggestion.  An admin would need to do this in news.
[07:49] <klepas> we might want to continue further discussions back in our home channel now :)
[07:49] <Who_> troy_s: can you explain that a bit more?
[07:50] <troy_s> Agree... back to artwork
[07:50] <andreasn> sure
[07:50] <Who_> okay. see you all there
[08:13] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[08:13] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 21 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 28 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
[08:27] <YannDinendal_>  /msg nickserv link YannDinendal mackay99
[08:30] <YannDinendal>  /msg NickServ IDENTIFY mackay99
[08:30] <ogra> ouch
[08:30] <YannDinendal> lol
[08:30] <YannDinendal> :(
[08:30] <ogra> you should chane your PW :)
[08:30] <neodreams> d'oh ;)
[08:30] <ogra> *change
[08:31] <YannDinendal> yes
[08:32] <neodreams> encoding problem ?
[08:53] <jenda> happens ;) But a publically logged channel is a good choice anyway 
[10:05] <viper550> Art meeting today...
[10:07] <neodreams> 4 hours ago
[10:07] <neodreams> :p
[10:08] <viper550> WHA?!?!?!
[10:08] <neodreams> yep :P
[10:08] <viper550> Oookay...what did I miss?
[10:09] <neodreams> http://neodreams.ctech.ca/2006-06-17.txt log here
[10:11] <ogra> neodreams, we also have the official ubuntu channel logs at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
[10:12] <ogra> in case there is nobody taking extra notes :)
[10:12] <neodreams> ohhhhhhh, good to know :p
[10:12] <viper550> So, the jist...
[10:12] <viper550> I'll be working on some new cursors
[10:13] <viper550> It's not that I hate Jimmac's cursors (although, they are nice, they even look good on Windows!)
[10:13] <viper550> (can you make cursors as SVGs?)
[10:14] <viper550> Wait...let's just move this to #ubuntu-artwork