[09:37] <kwwii> moin
[09:41] <Madpilot> hi
[09:43] <kwwii> hi
[10:34] <andreasn> hey kwwii, how is paris going?
[11:44] <lapo> hi
[02:18] <bersace|code> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edgy-artwork
[02:18] <bersace|code> oops !
[02:18] <bersace|code> nothing is planned :D
[02:19] <bersace|code> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyArtwork
[03:18] <lapo> what the unify icon themes spec is about?
[03:19] <kwwii> re
[03:19] <kwwii> lapo: that spec is somewhat confusing
[03:20] <lapo> yep, that's why I'm asking :-)
[03:20] <kwwii> lapo: until now we have talked about being able to find some simple graphical elements that could be used to make things a bit more similar
[03:21] <kwwii> but I think that that spec is supposed to mean that kde should use tango icons, which will not happen
[03:25] <lapo> kwwii: tango icons = tango style icons, not tango-icon-theme
[03:25] <lapo> kwwii: why don't we try to produce a new tango style theme for ubuntu?
[03:27] <lapo> kwwii: we can produce a base theme, then distro specific ones with no too much stuff in (like folders, trash, nav arrows) which inherits the base theme
[03:28] <lapo> if we join forces we can produce a full icon theme
[03:34] <lapo> kwwii: if there's something about the tango guidelines which is wrong for kde I can try to change it
[03:34] <msikma> Produce a new icon theme?
[03:34] <msikma> For KDE?
[03:34] <lapo> at the cost of redoing all the tango base to conform to the new guidelines
[03:34] <lapo> btw I'd really like a brand new tango style theme
[03:35] <msikma> I don't get what you're talking about, lapo
[03:36] <lapo> msikma: a brand new base icon theme following the tango guidelines
[03:36] <msikma> Why?
[03:36] <msikma> We've got Tango as base and Tangerine on top of that
[03:36] <msikma> I don't see why you'd want to make yet another icon theme unless you simply really really like making icons.
[03:37] <lapo> msikma: I think the point of human is being different, so mark will never see tango base as a nice alternative
[03:37] <msikma> I think that's a ridiculous way of thinking.
[03:37] <lapo> the human theme cannot be complete, it's simply too much work
[03:37] <lapo> msikma: tell him :-)
[03:37] <msikma> There's plenty of other things to be done beside making yet another COMPLETE icon theme.
[03:37] <msikma> lapo: I'm telling you since apparently you agree with him.
[03:37] <lapo> msikma: btw I see nothing wrong with doing a complete theme
[03:38] <lapo> msikma: tangerine is my fault do you think I agree with him? :-)
[03:38] <msikma> Other than the fact it takes a huge amount of time and also means throwing away everything we already have?
[03:38] <lapo> msikma: I tryied to push tango in ubuntu very hard, believe me, but mark is not ok with it
[03:38] <msikma> lapo: if you disagree, then why are you thinking about making yet another complete icon theme? I say we openly doubt such a bad design decision. Different for the sake of being different is bad.
[03:39] <lapo> msikma: I think the point of human is that one
[03:39] <lapo> msikma: for several reason
[03:39] <lapo> lemme explain
[03:39] <lapo> kde people doen't see tango base as a viable solution for them
[03:39] <lapo> mark is not ok with tango
[03:40] <msikma> Tango is the future icon base of all of Linux.
[03:40] <lapo> but I feel tango guidelines is the only solution to have a pretty nice looking desktop
[03:40] <msikma> I have no doubt about that.
[03:40] <lapo> msikma: I hope that
[03:41] <msikma> If Mark really wants different icons because he simply likes difference then let him hire a team to finish the Human set. As long as it fits in with Tango-style icons. I think it's ridiculous to let an artwork team, that already has a billion things to do, make a new icon theme because apparently brilliant and uniqe existing themes aren't good enough.
[03:41] <lapo> msikma: it is what he is doing already
[03:41] <msikma> Then why are we worried about icons?
[03:42] <lapo> beacuse I'd really like a common icon theme for all *buntus
[03:42] <lapo> common or almost common
[03:42] <msikma> So you'd make a completely new icon set that's different and then hope that difference was really Mark's reason for not using Tango?
[03:42] <msikma> I'd get more certainty on that if I were you.
[03:43] <lapo> msikma: I don't know exactly what is wrong with tango for mark, it's a my assumption that he want something original
[03:44] <lapo> msikma: I chatted with mark about it severa times, w/o getting anything out of it
[03:44] <lapo> that's the only solution I have at the moment
[03:46] <lapo> kwwii: ?
[03:46] <msikma> #@$!$#@!$!@#$#@!%$#!@$^%%$^#@^@%$^@#$%%$#!@$#!@$#@!
[03:46] <neodreams> :p
[03:46] <msikma> How does that guy even expect to ever make Linux a viable desktop alternative when he's apparently against consistency.
[03:46] <msikma> I will toss this up on the mailing list.
[03:47] <lapo> msikma: I think mark do not have an "artistic" eye, I don't think he is against consistency
[03:48] <lapo> msikma: I simply think he is not disturbed by the icon mix uubuntu is using by default as I am :-)
[03:50] <newz2000> I've not actually noticed any oddities with the icons (except the firefox icon). Which ones are a mix?
[03:50] <lapo> newz2000: human+tang*
[03:50] <newz2000> I didn't even notice
[03:50] <msikma> I do agree with that.
[03:51] <lapo> I do
[03:51] <msikma> The alternative icon theme isn't perfect.
[03:51] <newz2000> Someone just picked the best from human and tango and combined them?
[03:51] <msikma> And the orangification has sometimes taken on extremes.
[03:52] <lapo> newz2000: nope, human, fallback to tangerine and then tango for missing icons, and since it has *lots* of missing icons you have a messy mix (well, imho)
[03:52] <newz2000> oh, i see. I remember that being decided now that you mention it.
[03:52] <newz2000> Honestly, since I'm not intimate with those different icon sets I hadn't even noticed though.
[03:53] <msikma> Does Human have SVG versions?
[03:53] <lapo> msikma: yep, but that's tangerine scope, to orangify tango
[03:53] <lapo> msikma: for a few icons, for 128x128+ rendering tho
[03:53] <msikma> Ah, so the icons that were developed by a professional team aren't in SVG?
[03:53] <msikma> Except for a few.
[03:54] <kwwii> sorry, network keeps going down here
[03:54] <lapo> msikma: tangerine starting point was this one: http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/orango-tango/side-by-side.png
[03:54] <lapo> msikma: right
[03:54] <lapo> msikma: the rest was added later
[03:56] <lapo> kwwii: I was asking you, what's wrong with tango guidelines in respect of kde? We can change try to change the guidelines if you think it may help
[03:56] <lapo> s/change try/try to change/
[03:56] <lapo> ugh, weel you get it, right? :-)
[03:57] <kwwii> lapo: to be honest, there is simply no interest in using those icons in kde
[03:58] <kwwii> lapo: I have asked sooo many kubuntu users
[03:58] <lapo> kwwii: what abuot trying something new tano styled?
[03:58] <lapo> kwwii: what about trying something new tango styled?
[04:00] <coz_> morning all
[04:01] <coz_> i am going to leave a link to some of the work I have posted on ubuntu forums... if any of you fel I have something to contribute towards edgy , in any way, let me know, i will be coming in and out of here so... here is the link....http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/browseimages.php?perpage=45&catid=member&imageuser=44394  ..ther are I think 34 pices there
[04:02] <kwwii> lapo: to be honest, we are busy working on oxygen, so I do not think that even a new tango style would help
[04:08] <bersace|code> repost http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/browseimages.php?perpage=45&catid=member&imageuser=44394
[04:15] <newz2000> I worked on my theory last night of using a make file to regenerate artwork for distro-specific icons/graphics. Do you guys thing there would be any benefit to implementing it?
[04:16] <newz2000> bersace:oh, just got your msg
[04:24] <msikma> Okay, little late, but I sent the mail
[04:25] <msikma> So you may respond to it and let your voice be heard with Tangerine/Tango in mind
[04:26] <troy_s_Paris> moin
[04:26] <troy_s_Paris> anyone home?
[04:27] <msikma> Hi
[04:27] <troy_s_Paris> 19 folks... wow
[04:27] <troy_s_Paris> greetings sik, how you doing?
[04:27] <msikma> Now... if only they would stay...
[04:27] <msikma> Doing fine here. Kind of busy at work.
[04:27] <troy_s_Paris> network has been up and down all day unfortunately
[04:27] <msikma> Ah, I see
[04:27] <troy_s_Paris> kwwii, you here peachy?
[04:28] <lapo> msikma: I'll respond later
[04:28] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: hi
[04:28] <troy_s_Paris> greetings lapo
[04:28] <bersace|code> kwwii: is at a meeting
[04:28] <lapo> msikma: nice mail tho
[04:28] <troy_s_Paris> he was.
[04:28] <lapo> ciao troy_s
[04:28] <troy_s_Paris> he isn't now.
[04:28] <bersace|code> ok
[04:29] <troy_s_Paris> just as an fyi
[04:29] <troy_s_Paris> sabdfl has chosen three spec targets for edgy
[04:29] <troy_s_Paris> greetings et!
[04:29] <newz2000> troy_s_Paris: how's paris?
[04:29] <lapo> expensive :-)
[04:29] <troy_s_Paris> i added a wiki specifications template et, let klepas know
[04:29] <troy_s_Paris> we are going to bang out the four specifications in full
[04:30] <troy_s_Paris> they are already there, then sabdfl will priority them or link them to another tracking artwork spec
[04:30] <troy_s_Paris> paris is rather... busy
[04:30] <lapo> troy_s_Paris: what are those specs about?
[04:30] <troy_s_Paris> no time for any real normal stuff... it is all about work
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> lapo: it is ultimately four targets... a themed usplash, login manager, login splash, and wallpaper
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> those are the four
[04:31] <newz2000> cool
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> nothing else will be on the table
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> for a number of reasons
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> a)that is a lot of work \
[04:31] <newz2000> Are we going to get the opportunity to introduce more color and background choices on the desktop?
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> b) sabdfl wants to implement the process design doc that is almost finished
[04:31] <troy_s_Paris> c) deadline managment
[04:32] <troy_s_Paris> d) let everyone learn the tools (launchpad, wiki specking, bzr )
[04:32] <troy_s_Paris> palette isn't really an option
[04:33] <newz2000> We've got a great pallete, we just don't use all of it.
[04:33] <troy_s_Paris> everyone is free to deal with their own themes, but this is strictly pertaining to the default install
[04:33] <lapo> uhm...those specs consist in too few things I fear, you cannot have an uniform lookandfeel w/o woutching other stuff
[04:33] <lapo> btw sound fine to me
[04:33] <troy_s_Paris> further still, edgy development is basically 10 weeks till lock
[04:33] <newz2000> whoa
[04:33] <troy_s_Paris> (which is more or less a portion of our development cycle now)
[04:34] <troy_s_Paris> we are going to follow the developer's cycle (as we are now really a part of the team, so everyone will expect to eat up bugs and such)
[04:34] <newz2000> Did he mention a potential realease date?
[04:34] <troy_s_Paris> release date is on the wiki under edgy cycle if you wish to look
[04:34] <troy_s_Paris> lapo: we all agree that unifying things is very complicated
[04:35] <troy_s_Paris> lapo: and your concerns have been addressed a number of times, the reality is however that we are actually trying to use launchpad, bzr, etc, so sabdfl has chosen to keep the goals very simple and specific
[04:35] <troy_s_Paris> lapo: assuming this works fluidly, we are very much in terrific shape...
[04:35] <lapo> ok, let's wait edgy+1 for the Real Stuff(TM) :-)
[04:36] <troy_s_Paris> further still, we now have a unifying artwork team for kubuntu and ubuntu (kubuntu ken is here now and we have all been chatting at great length...
[04:36] <troy_s_Paris> well everyone really likes the idea of cycling a few elements every release -- to provide for a really nice 'new' feel
[04:36] <troy_s_Paris> not icons, but perhaps the four things we have listed in specs for this cycle, plus more depedning on how we come together as a team to share workload etc.
[04:37] <troy_s_Paris> icons are human, but there is some speculation of working towards svgs of them, etc.
[04:38] <troy_s_Paris> lapo: and yes, edgy+1 is going to be determined by how people learn the tools... everyone needs to learn how to spec clearly, everyone needs to learn how to use the launchpad etc, and everyone needs to really elevate themselves to finish this with complete quality.
[04:38] <troy_s_Paris> if we achieve this, we can expect terrific things.
[04:38] <lapo> gimp is tango now, you will be assimilated :-)
[04:38] <lapo> later, but you will :-)
[04:38] <troy_s_Paris> it will require some learning as people are going to need to learn how to work within other confines
[04:39] <troy_s_Paris> meaning that if the decision is made to say, follow lapo's login splash proposal (very clearly outlined manifesto is in the works), then we all expect variations on that login splash... gradually working towards a final polished product.
[04:40] <troy_s_Paris> once a deadline is met, that is the path we are taking.  no changing things and having the nightmare that happened towards the end of dapper.  that has been made _very_ clear
[04:40] <troy_s_Paris> coffee for a second... brb
[04:40] <troy_s_Paris> you can see the art team spec outline at wiki under artwork team for now
[04:40] <troy_s_Paris> we are going to finish up the specs for the four.
[04:42] <troy_s_Paris> also, it has been made clear that we are to implement a very clear and concise mailing list protocol.  there will indeed be topic lines and templates.  anything outside/off topic will be poliltely forwarded to the mailinglist howto on the wiki
[04:42] <troy_s_Paris> 20 members
[04:42] <troy_s_Paris> wowsers
[04:42] <newz2000> can you give an example?
[04:42] <newz2000> what do you mean by protocol?
[04:42] <msikma> Clear and concise mailing list protocol?
[04:43] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yes... there are say, four perhaps more topics to post under so that you can create rules in your mail program
[04:43] <troy_s_Paris> they will notify you of various things such as milestones approaching etc.
[04:44] <troy_s_Paris> sabdfl wants no further random musings... he really wants clear direction forwards, and i think the plan in place is pretty damn cool in terms of terrific structuring.
[04:44] <newz2000> That statement implies that the mailing list will be business only, less discussion... or will one of those protocols be "loose"?
[04:44] <msikma> So we have 10 weeks, you say?
[04:44] <newz2000> Interesting
[04:44] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: sort of... depends on what you view as 'locked'
[04:44] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: still to be determined... i am pushing for final composition lock without colour and fine polishing.
[04:44] <newz2000> For programmers, locked means that no new features, only refinements and bug fixes.
[04:44] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: but we will see how that all evolves.
[04:45] <msikma> Bah. Terrific structuring, you call it. You can't leave out wild and random ideas that might prove to be terrific contributions. I won't hold back on notifying the entire mailing list if I have a new idea.
[04:45] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yep.  and we need to factor that into account.
[04:45] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: there is a place for it in the development structure
[04:45] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: if you want xchat to ping me, use my nick (e.g. bersace|code) instead of "et"
[04:45] <newz2000> mskikma: don't judge yet, let's see how it works first.
[04:45] <troy_s_Paris> there is going to be a very clear leadership structure that will tell you when that time is over etc.
[04:45] <msikma> How long will that take?
[04:45] <bersace|code> just a tips
[04:45] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: how long will what take sorry?
[04:46] <msikma> What I just mentioned. The drafting time, I guess you would call it.
[04:46] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: there is a planning period where people can throw out all sorts of textures, motifs, loose styles, etc...
[04:46] <msikma> Yes, and how long do you think that would take?
[04:46] <troy_s_Paris> without any sort of submissions.  imagine where someone say, submits a jpg of a flower as a sort of texture, then someone else submits glass as a concept... etc.
[04:47] <troy_s_Paris> then proposals are built out of those textures.
[04:47] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: and sabdfl has been very clear regarding the mailing list (as well as a bunch of other folks) regarding business only
[04:47] <msikma> So there's a phase for drafting and then later there's an actual conceptual stage where we figure out what we're going to be building for Edgy?
[04:47] <troy_s_Paris> pretty sure there will be an offtopic for the other stuff.
[04:47] <msikma> There's a difference between business and useful braindumps.
[04:47] <msikma> I don't care about offtopic chatter.
[04:48] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: basically it flows like this - we cull the specs at the beginning -- meaning nothing unspeced is even looked at (and again, you have a full cycle to get your full specs in)
[04:48] <newz2000> I'm all for auto-categorizing, but I'd hate to stifle new ideas
[04:49] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: i am curious why you think deadlines and structure amount to stifling.  they amount to production.  they amount to simple reality when working in the confines of a project.
[04:49] <troy_s_Paris> after the spec cull
[04:49] <troy_s_Paris> (which basically has happened already here if you look at laucnhpad regarding edgy specs)
[04:49] <troy_s_Paris> then we move into knowing our targets for the given release as per the specs submitted
[04:49] <newz2000> I'm not saying deadlines and structures are stifling, but structure *can* stifle. My comment was merely, "I hope this is implemented in such a way that it allows the community to thrive"
[04:50] <troy_s_Paris> then we choose motifs, themes, possible palette hues, and all that wonderfully creative stuffs including references to outside stuff.
[04:50] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: we are all actively trying to pursue that, and from what i have seen thus far, i am pretty excited about the direction.
[04:50] <msikma> You call that structure. I call it smothering of late (good) ideas. My experience is that if you REALLY want to make a nice product, you're going to have to be able to accept good ideas that are a little late and put in extra effort to make sure they can still be implemented.
[04:50] <msikma> I think that plain ignoring such mails isn't a good idea.
[04:51] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: that's nice.
[04:51] <troy_s_Paris> msikma:  mail gets nothign done, there is a place for it... spec it
[04:51] <troy_s_Paris> we want everyone to be encouraged to spec it all... the real folks who need to see the stuff rely on the spec listings.
[04:51] <msikma> All I'm saying is that you shouldn't reduce yourself to just blindly following specs. When someone has a good idea, that might not be specced immediately.
[04:51] <troy_s_Paris> msikma:  and waht about deadlines?
[04:52] <troy_s_Paris> if a good idea pops up 9.4 weeks... you want to ditch the current path?
[04:52] <troy_s_Paris> it does not work.
[04:52] <msikma> I didn't say that.
[04:52] <troy_s_Paris> it is why in every art driven project, you have very hard deadlines, and you follow and build upon all of the work you have done thus far.  it is only one release, we have time to experiment and move on.
[04:52] <msikma> All I'm saying is that IF a new idea pops up late during the cycle which is good and can be implemented then you shouldn't ignore it because "we're past that stage".
[04:53] <newz2000> msikma: sometimes you have to wait for the next version
[04:53] <msikma> I agree.
[04:53] <msikma> But I'm not saying that.
[04:53] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: brilliant.
[04:53] <msikma> I'm saying that IF you CAN implement a late idea, then you should put in some effort and get it done if it's a great benefit.
[04:53] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: the reality is that the scheduling is very strict... and we only have so long to churn something out, then you need to account for all sorts of testing etc.
[04:53] <troy_s_Paris> composition, etc will all be locked at various stages
[04:53] <troy_s_Paris> leaving everyone to focus on polishing up the current works
[04:54] <troy_s_Paris> etc.
[04:54] <troy_s_Paris> and work out the bugs...
[04:54] <msikma> Okay but you do understand what I am saying, right?
[04:54] <msikma> Because a lot of your replies make me think you don't. But if you do, then that's fine.
[04:54] <newz2000> My points about the structure of the list were that I hope the opportunity to discuss things freely will still be possible, even if someoen says, "I'd really like to try and get this into spec [abc] , is it possible?"
[04:54] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: there is exactly that point
[04:54] <msikma> I don't encourage or condone working behind deadlines.
[04:54] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: but it does terminate
[04:54] <newz2000> The answer may be, "no, not possible"
[04:55] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: nope... we want to try everything, which is why it is imperitive that you start looking at some of the other specs
[04:55] <msikma> The last thing I want is useful mail to the list being bounced with "Sorry, we're working on a deadline, go take your good ideas and go someplace else".
[04:55] <troy_s_Paris> and make sure that you write a spec that someone can pick up in  a heartbeat and read
[04:55] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: at some point, you will certainly be dissapointed then.
[04:55] <msikma> Speccing isn't everything. Mailing is quick, mailing is useful, mailing allows direct personal replies.
[04:55] <troy_s_Paris> there are going to be deadlines
[04:55] <newz2000> I'll have to investiate the spec... to this point, I've thought of them as nothing more than a mail bomb.
[04:56] <troy_s_Paris> there is a new belief that the malinglist is irritating people
[04:56] <msikma> troy_s_Paris: I don't see how you can think that I disagree with deadlines.
[04:56] <troy_s_Paris> (and believe me, we don't want that)
[04:56] <msikma> A new belief? Of those in Paris?
[04:56] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: did i say you disagree with deadlines?
[04:56] <msikma> Not everybody is in Paris.
[04:56] <msikma> You said that "I was going to be disappointed since there will be deadlines"
[04:56] <troy_s_Paris> i said ONE thing... milestones are deadlines... meaning when the time comes, a phase is sort of ready to move forward
[04:56] <troy_s_Paris> deadlines meaning there are 'phases' of dev that will end.
[04:57] <msikma> I understand this.
[04:57] <troy_s_Paris> that's all i am saying
[04:57] <troy_s_Paris> nothing more
[04:57] <msikma> And you're making a big deal of a small something that I'm saying.
[04:57] <troy_s_Paris> actually no, i would prefer to move on
[04:57] <msikma> I agree with deadlines. It's great to work with them. It will get things done for a change.
[04:57] <msikma> But I don't think that you should just say "sorry, but there's no time for this" when I talk about simple mailing list discussion.
[04:57] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: it is a very much graduated deadline approach... there isn't 1 deadling -- that doesn't work.
[04:58] <troy_s_Paris> as we can recall from before
[04:58] <msikma> I don't see why you keep talking about deadlines.
[04:58] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: the mailing list isn't the place
[04:58] <troy_s_Paris> for that sort of thing... you place your specs, then the big wigs will look at them
[04:58] <msikma> The mailing list is our central method of collaboration discussion.
[04:58] <troy_s_Paris> so i guess if you really care about something, the trick appears to be to make your case
[04:58] <troy_s_Paris> in a well laid out spec
[04:59] <troy_s_Paris> martin pitts specs have been quite good and respected thus far, as an example
[04:59] <msikma> I repeat: the mailing list is our main method of communication.
[04:59] <msikma> What's wrong with that?
[04:59] <newz2000> mskima: I think you might be mis-understanding what troy is saying... the mailing list will still be there, but the answer to a post maybe, "we need to put this off until we finish our current tasks."
[04:59] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: indeed.  there is also a deferred state for specs, etc... it depends on a number of things, some of which aren't easy to negotiate.
[05:00] <msikma> I'll be very glad if it turns out that I'm misunderstanding him. I don't agree with speccing every single idea. The mailing list is much faster and more useful.
[05:00] <troy_s_Paris> for example, in a very particular detail
[05:00] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: it simply wont get done.  do what you want, but i am telling oyu this entire bof is all about launchpad
[05:00] <msikma> And I don't really care if a few people are annoyed with e-mails.
[05:00] <troy_s_Paris> every single table discussing things now are discussing specs at launchpad, and adding to the drafting.
[05:00] <msikma> The mailing list is traditionally the best method of communication.
[05:00] <troy_s_Paris> msikma, you might not, but others do.
[05:00] <msikma> And if you guys spec things, that's fine.
[05:01] <msikma> But I don't see why we can't keep our main communication in the mailing list.
[05:01] <troy_s_Paris> personally, i don't really mind either way.
[05:01] <msikma> I will spec things that need to be done, but I won't initiate any new ideas on the Launchpad. If I want something to be done for Edgy, I'll first throw it up on the mailing list and then later spec it.
[05:01] <troy_s_Paris> _and_, i might add, this pertains to the default only
[05:01] <msikma> I've made a spec for the Ubuntu title font today. I'm not against Launchpad or anything.
[05:02] <msikma> But it was made after a mail on the list.
[05:02] <msikma> The list is, afterall, still the place you'd first go to. Sending a mail is fast and simple.
[05:02] <troy_s_Paris> there is massive room in other themes and such for everyone to refine everything that they want if they can gather momentum with it.
[05:02] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: there are two things you will need to do if you want it to even get considered... launchpad spec with the wiki link as per the templates (working on them from existing respected templates)
[05:03] <msikma> Wiki link as per the templates?
[05:03] <msikma> Do you mean the "read more" link?
[05:03] <newz2000> be back soon
[05:05] <troy_s_Paris> when you post a spec there is a 'wiki link' for the spec iirc
[05:05] <troy_s_Paris> and that will be located underneath the proper dir (as per pascal and bersace|code 's restructure)
[05:06] <troy_s_Paris> and there is quite a bit of work to do so everyone will hopefully participate in both kubuntu and ubuntu helping out where help is needed.
[05:06] <bersace|code> good, xchat notify me :)
[05:06] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: there is a quick template at the artworkteam wiki root, we will dump the four specs there.
[05:07] <troy_s_Paris> they are already there, but they are obviously unfinished as neil just tried to get them into the system, we will refine those four for clarity
[05:08] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: why not use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/LaunchpadSpecificationsTemplate2?action=edit&template=SpecTemplate
[05:08] <troy_s_Paris> that's the one i just put in lol
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> it is based on martin pitt's several good ones
[05:09] <bersace|code> without replacement :(
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> just with the text ripped
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> ???
[05:09] <bersace|code> you should keep the @VARIABLE@
[05:09] <bersace|code> s
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> didn't see it... feel free to patch it... that's the content.
[05:09] <bersace|code> ok
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> ken and frank want the template in place, so i just hurried one out
[05:09] <troy_s_Paris> but that is based on martins
[05:12] <troy_s_Paris> sorry
[05:12] <troy_s_Paris> power issue :)
[05:12] <msikma> Anyway, I'm glad you guys are doing all this reorganisation.
[05:12] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: hopefully it will let you really dump a bunch of good stuff
[05:13] <bersace|code> done : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/SpecTemplate
[05:13] <troy_s_Paris> msikma:and it also gives us a great paper trail so when someone pops up and says, 'why don't we do xxx or yyy', and if that has been tried and perhaps isn't possible at the moment (as some of the limitations of usplash for example) we can just point to the spec
[05:14] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: you and pas going to move that stuffs to artwork at some point you guys were saying?
[05:14] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: because i figure that the launchpad specs will need that subpage so that they can all list there, if you know what i mean
[05:14] <msikma> So where do we put such pages?
[05:14] <bersace|code> i think we need more polish to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%c3%89tienneBersac/ArtworkReOrganisation/NewTree
[05:14] <bersace|code> Artwork/Specs/*
[05:15] <bersace|code> using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/SpecTemplate
[05:16] <msikma>  /ArtworkTeam/Specname?
[05:16] <msikma> ah
[05:16] <msikma> Sepcs
[05:16] <bersace|code> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/SpecTemplate
[05:16] <msikma> *Specs
[05:16] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: indeed
[05:16] <bersace|code> create Artwork/Specs/YourSpec
[05:17] <msikma> Not ArtworkTeam?
[05:17] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: by descriptive title, not the short title
[05:17] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: i think pascal wanted to migrate it all into a unified artwork structure
[05:17] <troy_s_Paris> greetings jgot!
[05:17] <troy_s_Paris> as in
[05:17] <troy_s_Paris> wiki/Artwork/blah
[05:18] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: greetings
[05:18] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: how you doing?
[05:18] <msikma> By the way, all this organisation has confused me a little as to when the phases will end. I suppose the drafting phase has yet to begin. So when will be the time for me to actually publish my thoughts on the Ubuntu system's artwork and what I believe we should do for Edgy to improve it?
[05:18] <jsgotangco> heh tired already in a final bof session for the day upstairs
[05:19] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: everyone is exhausted here... it is pretty intense and non stop
[05:19] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: there are basically 5? phases
[05:19] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: yes its always like that this is my 2nd time participating in a summit
[05:19] <jsgotangco> but its fun!
[05:19] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: too bad we're in the middle of nowhere
[05:20] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: its damn tiring... and i am jetlagged all to heck
[05:20] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: reallyyyyyyyy bad today
[05:20] <jsgotangco> heh i'll brb a bit
[05:20] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: the draft will allocate a certain number of units so that by the end of the target spec examination, we can easily 'map' a schedule breakdown with hard dates to the final cycle schedule
[05:21] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: it is pretty straighforwards as percents...
[05:21] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: you can publish your thoughts in a spec format, but i would wait until we have the four up as these are as per sabdfl's preferences on specs
[05:21] <bersace|code> all, now please use Artwork/PageTemplate
[05:21] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: then you can be assured that your ideas will be tackled one by one by both the community and the devs etc
[05:22] <msikma> Okay.
[05:22] <msikma> So I will wait for this new planning to be created first, you recommend.
[05:22] <troy_s_Paris> msikma specs are very good that way
[05:23] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: no... the planning is pretty much on track, it is really the 'how' to post a good spec outline\
[05:23] <troy_s_Paris> you can take a look at the existing spec template
[05:23] <troy_s_Paris> and here... i snag you a link for a good dev link
[05:23] <troy_s_Paris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LangpacksDesktopfilesKDE
[05:24] <troy_s_Paris> that's the one that sabdfl put up on the screen as the example of a well laid out spec complete with Use Cases, where applicaable
[05:24] <troy_s_Paris> the "Use Cases" for changing the four, is basically something like "Betty likes every new version of ubuntu, she looks forwards to seeing the new splashes and such signifying each new release.  " blah blah
[05:24] <troy_s_Paris> that sort of thing
[05:24] <msikma> Ah, okay
[05:24] <troy_s_Paris> they are pretty big on the use cases, so make sure you offer one or two
[05:25] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: does that help you at all?
[05:25] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: also, iirc, there is a laucnhpad spec in that wiki link
[05:25] <msikma> But this sort of spec seems more for specific things. What in the case of me having a much longer critique? Should I just make a whole lot of different specs for the ideas that I have?
[05:26] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: you will need to deal with the global issues as a braindump i think, then if it progresses from there, i am pretty sure that the spec would need subdividing so that the devs can track status
[05:26] <msikma> Yeah, that's very useful, though I was personally thinking of writing some kind of critique with suggestions as to how we could improve in the form of a wiki page with appropriate headers. Though I could also do it this way if this is more useful.
[05:26] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: that structure is already in place -- et and klepas are the folks who are pretty much on that
[05:26] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: so pass your thoughts onto them directly
[05:26] <newz2000> We figured you all were partying your socks off ;-)
[05:26] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code that is, in this forum
[05:26] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yah ... well i don't drink and no, i am dead tired.
[05:27] <newz2000> oops, sorry for that off topic... I thought I'd completely caught up
[05:27] <troy_s_Paris> newz2000: it really is non-stop ubuntu / kubuntu bonkers
[05:27] <troy_s_Paris> laf
[05:27] <newz2000> troy_s_Paris:Yeah, well, I don't drink either, but I can still party
[05:27] <troy_s_Paris> henrik is here too... which is very cool
[05:27] <jsgotangco> yeah
[05:28] <troy_s_Paris> he has his full rig including head tracking mouse, etc
[05:28] <newz2000> whoa. Tell him hi for me
[05:28] <troy_s_Paris> crappers... look at the people again... kind of strange\
[05:28] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: its nice meeting henrik since i've worked with him for a year already but this is the first time i met him
[05:28] <troy_s_Paris> he is terrific
[05:28] <troy_s_Paris> busy though :)
[05:29] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: has he discussed art.ubuntu.com with you?
[05:29] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: have you been there lately?
[05:29] <troy_s_Paris> klepas updated it recently...
[05:29] <jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: sorry i haven't although i have admin rights on that server
[05:30] <troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: klepas has.  although iirc there was a colloquialism in there
[05:31] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: i think it has been good because you really get a feeling for how the flow works, which i will hopefully wiki at some point, but it should be clear
[05:31] <troy_s_Paris> basically, everyone specs to the best of their ability, then the heavy hitters all look over all the specs one by one
[05:31] <troy_s_Paris> and filter... then the ones they want get approved
[05:32] <troy_s_Paris> then the team works on polishing up the drafting of the spec (which is what this bof is about bascially -- if you watch launchpad you will see the current edgy ones evolving via drafting)
[05:32] <troy_s_Paris> then the team takes over and runs with it.
[05:32] <troy_s_Paris> subject to approval of course, as per the heavy hitters
[05:33] <troy_s_Paris> if you have something that is a massive change, that edgy listing is there... you can pretty much be assured that it will get looked at :)
[05:34] <jsgotangco> heh i see you're observing the summit very well
[05:35] <troy_s_Paris> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[05:36] <troy_s_Paris> that's the starting point for edgy stuff... but they are already heavy into the stuffs.
[05:43] <troy_s_Paris> msikma: bersace|code
[05:43] <troy_s_Paris> grr
[05:43] <troy_s_Paris> wrong sorry
[05:43] <bersace|code> hh
[05:43] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: i am going to put the four spec entries under artwork team ok?
[05:43] <troy_s_Paris> then you can copy them etc from there
[05:44] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: put them on Artwork/Specs/
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> thank you
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> will do
[05:44] <bersace|code> using Artwork/Specs/SpecTemplate
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> EEK
[05:44] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: you can see the work at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryArtwork
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> what is gfxbootscreen?\
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> or is that all needing cleanup etc?
[05:44] <bersace|code> where ?
[05:44] <troy_s_Paris> bottm in subpages off of artwork root
[05:45] <bersace|code> that's an old child of Artwork
[05:45] <troy_s_Paris> ahhhhh
[05:45] <bersace|code> to be renamed to Incoming/ ...
[05:45] <bersace|code> not !
[05:46] <troy_s_Paris> cool
[05:46] <troy_s_Paris>  @username@ is slick!
[05:46] <bersace|code> already a redirection to ArtworkTeam/Drafts/GfxBoot :P
[05:51] <bersace|code> What is that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda nightmare ???
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> i don't seeo ne... haven't looked
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> what nightmare?
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code:
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> ?
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> Dammit
[05:54] <troy_s_Paris> i just torched specs by accident et
[05:55] <bersace|code> that pages are just use like there were mailing list :(
[05:55] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: you will need to replace it... grr... i will move it to the correct stuffs
[05:55] <troy_s_Paris> okay... hopefully it didn't break.
[05:56] <bersace|code> what's that : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs ?
[05:56] <troy_s_Paris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/ChangeLoginSplashImage
[05:56] <troy_s_Paris> changed name, you will need to root page taht specs page
[06:01] <bersace|code> yep
[06:03] <kwwii> re
[06:04] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: done
[06:10] <lapo> tada: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/screenshots/gimp-light-tango.png
[06:10] <lapo> gimp got assimilated :-)
[06:12] <klepas> bloody awesome
[06:12] <klepas> sorry haven't been able to chat...
[06:12] <klepas> exams begin tomorrow
[06:12] <klepas> so g'nite
[06:14] <offs_> hi people...
[06:14] <troy_s_Paris> hi offs
[06:14] <bersace|code> lapo: nice !
[06:15] <offs> troy_s_Paris, how are you?
[06:15] <lapo> bersace|code: yeah, tango rulez! :-)
[06:16] <offs> troy_s_Paris, how is the meeting?
[06:16] <klepas_Zzz> paris coming along nicely?
[06:16] <offs> I'm lost a little... I was busy very much.. so I'm free now...
[06:20] <troy_s_Paris> meeting is tiring... lots of ubuntu/k stuffs
[06:20] <troy_s_Paris> kwwii is here too, as you probably know
[06:20] <kwwii> and it is a rocking good time :-)
[06:20] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: what to do with : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Drafts/EdgyColourProposals/Howto
[06:20] <bersace|code> That should be a spec :?
[06:23] <troy_s_Paris> yep
[06:23] <troy_s_Paris> it should.
[06:24] <troy_s_Paris> neil is tweaking it apparently... i don't know... perhaps you should post that people shouldn't wiki until the restructure is finished.
[06:27] <offs> what's the original troy? :)
[06:27] <kwwii> bersace|code: the spec template on the wiki rocks! good work :-)
[06:27] <bersace|code> kwwii: thanks
[06:28] <offs> bersace|code, I've added you in jabber... have you seen some there?
[06:28] <bersace|code> offs: my jabber id is bersace@gmail.com
[06:29] <bersace|code> i didn't receive any request
[06:29] <offs> I think that I added this.. let me verify
[06:31] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: i updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives/6.06/Ubuntu
[06:31] <bersace|code> how can we handle "Outdoors", "Gray" and other additionnal themes
[06:31] <bersace|code> all in the same pages ?
[06:32] <bersace|code> i think that we should create subpage for "Human", "Outdoors", etc. that include icons, gtk+ & metacity and an overview screenshot
[06:32] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: right ?
[06:32] <klepas_Zzz> yea
[06:32] <klepas_Zzz> the tango one could definitely use one :)
[06:33] <klepas_Zzz> ack, back to sleep :)
[06:37] <bersace|code> offs: got it
[06:37] <troy_s_Paris> sorry
[06:37] <offs> ok.. I saw.. :)
[06:37] <troy_s_Paris> busy wikifying the four specs sabdfl wants
[06:37] <bersace|code> can you please tell me your Name ? (just for the contact list)
[06:38] <troy_s_Paris> the original troy, by the way, is me back in canada with my box idling
[06:38] <offs> ribeiro, thiago from brasil
[06:38] <bersace|code> Ribeiro Thiago ?
[06:38] <kwwii> the other way around I guess
[06:38] <offs> thiago ribeiro
[06:38] <troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: if he wants involvment, that launchpad team is a good starting point
[06:42] <bersace|code> hh !! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives/ArchiveTemplate
[06:46] <bersace|code> offs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?highlight=%28CategoryArtwork%29#head-0317595db520fb13120558e05a035f910ebe98a7
[06:46] <offs> tks
[07:07] <bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: should we drop /Tasks in favor of specs ?
[07:07] <bersace|code> nice :(
[08:43] <lapo> hi
[09:31] <PseudoPlacebo> I love you all.
[09:31] <jsgotangco> yes you too
[09:32] <neodreams> I love bling bling