/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/06/21/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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Madpilothi jsgotangco 08:18
jsgotangcohi!08:19
PlugMorning all08:19
Madpilothow's Paris going?08:21
robotgeekhey Madpilot jsgotangco Plug 08:22
jsgotangcoMadpilot: tiring08:22
Madpilothi robotgeek 08:22
jsgotangcoits ony 8:20am08:22
Madpilotjsgotangco, gah! Far too early :)08:22
PlugIs there an installation guide for dapper (the d-i doc) - can only find up to breezy?08:23
jsgotangcoMadpilot: can't help it! its like 2:20pm in my place now!08:23
robotgeekPlug: i htink only on the installer itself, nothing online. i am not sure if the ones on doc.ubuntu.com are for breezy/dapper08:23
Plugright08:24
jsgotangcoah clear skies in paris today08:28
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PlugSeveas: are you around?  I have some Falcon questions.09:12
SeveasPlug, sure, but better do that in PM09:13
Plugnp09:13
Madpilothmm, why is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges redirecting to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup?09:38
Madpilotshouldn't wiki.u.c be maintaining it's own CatCleanup?09:38
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mdkeMadpilot: redirecting?10:01
Madpilotit was a while ago10:01
mdkeseems ok here10:01
Madpilotsorry, not RecentChanges, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup10:02
mdkeah, right10:02
mdkeghee22: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaGuideContent <-- this is purely documentation, why isn't that being worked on with the documentation team?10:03
mdkeMadpilot: categorycleanup is only for documentation, I think we can delete it on the main wiki10:04
Madpilotmdke, fair enough10:05
=== mdke goes to do some work
ghee22mdke:  i'm not actually working on the documentation anymore (hi btw)10:13
mdkeghee22: hi. So who's project is that?10:14
mdke(whose)10:14
ghee22mdke: simon brilliantly gave me the idea to work on a flashy way to present **specific** documentation when a user logs in, for the first time.  The project is about preemptivily giving the user certian docuementation only, not all.  Also, I am making it so the sysadmin can edit it easily so they can add custom instructions;  for example, if it's a school computer, the sysadmin for the school can add a page to the program on how to s10:16
mdkeghee22: where does that documentation come from?10:17
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ghee22mdke: so, i'm putting in dummy documentation right now to fill the program with stuff.  the program is about presenting it in a very easy way.  the documentation will hopefully come from the doc-team!  :o)  If they are supportive that is.  Otherwise, I'll be taking what they wrote and, perhaps, make templates.10:18
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mdkeseparate documentation from the help system?10:18
jsgotangcogood morning mdke10:20
ghee22mdke:  well, as you can see in the mock screenshot, i took the office page word for word form Ubuntu - Help - Desktop Guide - Office.  So, no, it's not seperate.  But, also shown in the screenshot, I will add in the (Multimedia Guide)/(Welcome Center)/(whatever we're calling it) program a gif to show the user how to get to the office programs (show mouse clicking Applications, Office, and highlight the OO.o programs).10:20
ghee22mdke:  what do you think?10:21
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mdkeghee22: sounds good. However I think that developing a separate application that does this will lead users to lose sight of the system help center and thus potentially they will only see a small snapshot of the documentation available. Id much rather see your project working directly on the system help center...10:25
ghee22mdke:  I have thought about this.  I haven't come to a perfect solution, yet;  what do you think of putting in big bold letters, that this a way to get help is, System - Help, and noting that this program is just a guide, not a help system.  I don't really think the user would get confused, if i'm very clear in front page the purpose of this program is:  to INTRODUCE the user to  Ubuntu's most used features (based on what the sysadmi10:31
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ghee22mdke:  I will put in words, "This is not a help system.  The purpose of this program is to introduce you to the features used most for new Ubuntu users.  To get help, please refer to Ubuntu's help system found in System, help."  I can change the words, to something you guys like.  Also, I have a category (see screenshot) that refers to support which show the user how to get help.10:33
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ghee22mdke:  what do you think?10:41
ghee22mdke:  i hope the silence implies we're finally getting along (agreeing).10:48
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mdkeghee22: sorry, I'm at work, will read what you said above11:16
mdkeghee22: right. I'm afraid I don't see a distinction between a guide and a help system. The former is a subset of the latter. However, I think if your program is well integrated with the help system, it might work11:16
LaserJockmdke!11:17
jsgotangcograb him!11:17
mdkeyo11:17
LaserJockmdke: I keep trying to ping you11:18
LaserJockbut my chat goes in and out11:18
mdkeyeah11:19
LaserJockmdke: I think Kamion, Keybuk, etc wanted to ask me about the doc string freeze11:19
LaserJockmdke: also I talked to elmo about using the team speak server for doc team sprints and he said that was fine11:20
LaserJockmdke: is there anything you wanted me to say about doc string freeze?11:20
mdkedon't think so11:20
LaserJockhave you seen their draft of the Release Schedule?11:21
jsgotangcoyeah i think it would be sane to use TS for a small sprint11:21
LaserJockand gobby ;-)11:22
LaserJockhmm, I don't see a UI freeze on the edgy schedule11:24
mdkeno, i haven't looked at it11:24
LaserJockbut the string freeze is a week after Feature Freeze11:24
mdke1.as for team speak, does it work?11:24
LaserJockit works, if people use it and right now if your not on ppc11:25
LaserJockbut it is pretty simple11:25
LaserJockright now they have doc string freeze 6 weeks before release11:25
LaserJockThe first BOF for the release schedule that I went to was only about development11:27
LaserJockso they didn't talk about docs at all, the second one had a lot of artwork stuff11:27
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sfllawghee22: The convention should be to _introduce_ a feature.  Maybe with a screenshot?  And then hyperlink to the real documentation.12:31
sfllawAnd maybe even link to something that will start up that feature for you?12:31
sfllawThat way, the introductory welcome message leads people into discovering features and documentaoin.12:33
sfllawWhich is what new users find helpful for transferring skills from one environment to the next.12:33
sfllawOK.  Nap time.12:33
sfllawZzzz.12:33
jsgotangcozzzz too12:35
jsgotangcosfllaw: i heard there's a fete tonight in the city12:35
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apokryphosthe idea to move some random pages off the wiki (even though they are the wiki) into h.u.c/community is a bit curious IMO12:49
LaserJockrandom?12:49
LaserJockonly pages marked CategoryDocumentation were moved12:50
apokryphosor ones under there, yes.12:50
LaserJockso it isn't random then12:52
apokryphosI didn't literally mean random, I meant different pages on the wiki12:52
apokryphosthe question is why they moved there, not which category has12:52
LaserJockwell, because documentation pages were supposed to move12:54
LaserJockor are you asking why we are doing the move in the first place?12:54
apokryphosexactly12:55
LaserJocksee wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs12:55
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ghee22sfllaw:  that's an excellent idea.  i will provide you with more details..  keep the ideas rollin12:56
LaserJocksfllaw: what are you doing in here? ;-)12:57
LaserJockwe have no bugs12:57
LaserJock:-)12:57
jribHi, is there a standard for dealing with ubuntu versions on the wiki, or should I just seperate the page into "for breezy" and "for dapper" sections?  I am updating the logitech mx1000 guide for dapper, if that matters.12:57
LaserJockjrib: I'd check the ubuntu-doc mailing list archives on lists.ubuntu.com12:58
jribLaserJock: thanks12:58
LaserJockjrib: we recently had a discussion about that, but I'm not sure what the specifc suggestion was12:58
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apokryphosanyhow, I'm going to add the FAQ to the main wiki page, unless there are objections...01:02
LaserJockyou can always ask the ML if you are in doubt01:04
Kamping_Kaisersorry if this has been discussed while i wasnt looking - but the /DocumentationTeam/Projects page has lots of stuff marked 'for dapper', will those now be 'for edgy'?01:04
Kamping_Kaiserand i'd like to help somehow (at last) :/01:05
mdkeapokryphos: _all_ documentation was moved01:21
mdkenothing random about that01:21
apokryphosmany pages I see still haven't transffered, but I suppose that's down to it still being in the transition stage?01:22
mdkeapokryphos: no, that's because the pages didn't have the CategoryDocumentation tag01:22
mdke(erroneously)01:22
mdkeif they are documentation, they need to be moved manually01:23
apokryphosok, I'll mark such pages that I see01:23
apokryphosthough, some pages will need a total restructure (i.e. Kubuntu), which provide both user and developer information01:23
mdkeuser information |= documentation01:24
mdkebut yes, there is sometimes a difficult line to be drawn01:25
apokryphoswhat do you mean? Could you give a vague distinction, perhaps?01:25
mdkedocumentation is information which describes how to use the computer to do a task01:27
apokryphoshm, is [wiki:somedoc sometitle]  deprecated now, I see?01:27
mdkePages which deal with the ubuntu community and provide information about teams, derivatives, projects, specifications and so on are not documentation01:27
mdkeeh?01:28
apokryphos[wiki:SomeDoc Some Doc Title]  seems to be deprecated01:28
dsasapokryphos: Linking to another page inside the wiki is [:PageName: Display Text] 01:28
apokryphosNoticed it's that now, yes01:29
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mdke"wiki:" has never been a valid way to link, to my knowledge01:29
apokryphosI saw it on several pages, so that's what I used01:29
mdkebut if it was, nothing has changed01:30
apokryphos(and it used to work perfectly in the past)01:30
jribI was trying to figure out that same problem right now01:30
apokryphoswell, it's definitely changed in, say, the last 10 days?01:30
mdkeno01:30
apokryphoswell, it has :)01:31
mdkenothing at all has changed, for the last year at least01:31
apokryphosI'm sorry, but it certainly used to work (I used it a dozen times in a wiki page, and, well, now it isn't01:31
apokryphosthat it matters, I'll jsut change the syntax01:31
mdke(1)you can say it has all you want, but it hasnt.01:31
apokryphossame for you, then :)01:31
mdkeno, I know for a fact that the software has not been altered in any way01:32
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jribis there a way to search the mailing list archives?01:38
mdkeyou can probably search here: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc01:39
jribmdke: thanks01:41
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LaserJockmdke: ping02:10
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mdkeLaserJock_: yeah02:34
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Laser_awaymdke: sorry network is going off and on02:46
Laser_awaymdke: Edgy will not have a UI freeze02:46
Laser_awayKeybuk said that basically Feature Freeze will be the time when all features including artwork should be complete02:47
Laser_awayalso, a representitive from the art team will be going to the Thursday distro meetings02:48
Laser_awayKeybuk asked that we also send a representitive02:48
Laser_awaythis way all the teams can keep tabs on each other's activities, etc.02:48
Laser_awaymdke: should I email the list about these items?02:50
mdkeLaser_away: guess so?03:01
Laser_awayk03:04
Laser_awayit might take me a little time to do it as I'm trying to draft a spec, etc. but I'll try to do it today03:04
mdkeok03:10
mdkeIm not sure I can see the feasibility of sending a docteam representative to the distro meetings, or whether it will actually have any benefit, but I suppose it is up to them03:10
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Laser_awaymdke: well, I suppose you can discuss it with Keybuk or TB03:25
Laser_awaymdke: I guess the idea is that art, doc, and dev teams should all be aware of what everybody is up to03:26
mdkeyes.03:27
jsgotangcommm?03:27
Laser_awayjsgotangco: keybuk told me today that they want a doc team representitive at the distro meetings03:28
jsgotangcoboy that small strawberry thingie outside was delicious03:28
nixternallol03:28
mdkei just have my doubts about whether well be able to get someone there. It seems to me that they have enough difficulties with trying to ensure that employees get there at all hours of the day/night03:28
jsgotangcowell its not like only one should be there mdke03:28
Laser_awaywell, they rotate six hours each time and Keybuck said that the person can just send a report f they can't make it03:29
jsgotangcoi mean the meetings rotate and sometimes like me i just idle there so03:29
mdkejsgotangco: I still have my doubts03:29
jsgotangcoshouldn't be that hard really03:29
mdkewe'll see03:29
Laser_awaymdke: well, it really isn't as big a deal for us as for art03:29
jsgotangcoyou'll just need someone doing a report if no one comes03:29
mdkeLaser_away: yeah, I see that03:30
Laser_awaythey point was to help the team not have any "suprises"03:30
jsgotangcoLaserJock: are you upstairs?03:31
LaserJockjsgotangco: yes, highvoltage and I are drafting ;-)03:31
jsgotangcoahhh03:31
jsgotangcohave you seen rodrigo?03:31
LaserJocknot for a while03:31
jsgotangcohe seemed to have escaped again heh03:31
LaserJockmaybe he went to Paris03:32
jsgotangcobastard!03:32
LaserJockwell, maybe he wanted to find some more 4 euro water ;-)03:32
jsgotangcoheh03:32
jsgotangcoi hoarded a bottle yesterday to my room03:32
LaserJockoh, actually I remeber now that he was going to go the village and get some wine03:32
jsgotangcoim not really keen on bringing wine home considering there's a wine store near my house that houses like a hundred french wines :/03:33
LaserJockwell, I don't think he was planning on bringing it home ;-)03:34
jsgotangcohe's going to bribe us!03:34
LaserJockyep03:34
klepasmdke: lovely interview :)03:52
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mdkeklepas: thanks. I was kicking myself afterwards that I didnt talk more about some things03:53
mdkestill, nice that they are interested in docs03:54
jsgotangcoyour majesty!03:56
LaserJockwhat interview?03:57
klepaslugradio's latest ep03:58
LaserJocklistening now04:02
klepas:)04:03
jsgotangcosuperstar mdke04:09
LaserJockmdke's a Rock Star!!04:10
jsgotangcowe can only dream...04:11
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mdkeall lawyers are secretly rock stars04:18
jsgotangcoi can only dream on being in your level04:18
jsgotangcoLaserJock: it also helps that he's english so its already biased for startes04:26
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LaserJockjsgotangco: hehe, true. He did fit in nicely ;-)04:30
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nixternalwith the move and all taking place with h.u.c and w.u.c...we can still go about CatCleanup like always?05:57
LaserJockI would think so06:01
nixternalsome of the pages listed in CatCleanup don't have CatCleanup on the bottom of the pages either...It is like they kept the setting, just don' t display it06:02
LaserJockhmm, you sure it isn't in there somewhere?06:07
mvirkkilnixternal: You can easily grep the page by wgetting the raw code. 06:20
mvirkkilnixternal: Something like:06:20
mvirkkilwget -U "" -q -O - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=raw|grep Category06:20
mvirkkilWhere you can replace the "Home" with any PageName 06:20
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nixternalahh i see it is in there...just not in the bottom portion of the page06:24
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claudemgalvin: ping10:24
mgalvinclaude: pong?10:24
claudeabout the weekly newsletter10:24
mgalvinwhats up10:25
claudewe just had an irc meeting for the french team10:25
claudeand we'll have shortly the letter translated in french10:25
claudewe just set up the process10:25
claudei'll told you when it is online10:26
claudei just wanted you to be aware of this10:26
mgalvinclaude: excellent, thanks!10:27
mgalvinclaude: i try to have them done every saturday night (US time) just so you know when to expect new issues to be ready for translation10:29
claudeok, thanks10:30
claudewe'll try to have it translated in 2 or 3 days, if possible10:30
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