[08:18] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
[08:19] <jsgotangco> hi!
[08:19] <Plug> Morning all
[08:21] <Madpilot> how's Paris going?
[08:22] <robotgeek> hey Madpilot jsgotangco Plug 
[08:22] <jsgotangco> Madpilot: tiring
[08:22] <Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
[08:22] <jsgotangco> its ony 8:20am
[08:22] <Madpilot> jsgotangco, gah! Far too early :)
[08:23] <Plug> Is there an installation guide for dapper (the d-i doc) - can only find up to breezy?
[08:23] <jsgotangco> Madpilot: can't help it! its like 2:20pm in my place now!
[08:23] <robotgeek> Plug: i htink only on the installer itself, nothing online. i am not sure if the ones on doc.ubuntu.com are for breezy/dapper
[08:24] <Plug> right
[08:28] <jsgotangco> ah clear skies in paris today
[09:12] <Plug> Seveas: are you around?  I have some Falcon questions.
[09:13] <Seveas> Plug, sure, but better do that in PM
[09:13] <Plug> np
[09:38] <Madpilot> hmm, why is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges redirecting to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup?
[09:38] <Madpilot> shouldn't wiki.u.c be maintaining it's own CatCleanup?
[10:01] <mdke> Madpilot: redirecting?
[10:01] <Madpilot> it was a while ago
[10:01] <mdke> seems ok here
[10:02] <Madpilot> sorry, not RecentChanges, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup
[10:02] <mdke> ah, right
[10:03] <mdke> ghee22: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaGuideContent <-- this is purely documentation, why isn't that being worked on with the documentation team?
[10:04] <mdke> Madpilot: categorycleanup is only for documentation, I think we can delete it on the main wiki
[10:05] <Madpilot> mdke, fair enough
[10:13] <ghee22> mdke:  i'm not actually working on the documentation anymore (hi btw)
[10:14] <mdke> ghee22: hi. So who's project is that?
[10:14] <mdke> (whose)
[10:16] <ghee22> mdke: simon brilliantly gave me the idea to work on a flashy way to present **specific** documentation when a user logs in, for the first time.  The project is about preemptivily giving the user certian docuementation only, not all.  Also, I am making it so the sysadmin can edit it easily so they can add custom instructions;  for example, if it's a school computer, the sysadmin for the school can add a page to the program on how to s
[10:17] <mdke> ghee22: where does that documentation come from?
[10:18] <ghee22> mdke: so, i'm putting in dummy documentation right now to fill the program with stuff.  the program is about presenting it in a very easy way.  the documentation will hopefully come from the doc-team!  :o)  If they are supportive that is.  Otherwise, I'll be taking what they wrote and, perhaps, make templates.
[10:18] <mdke> separate documentation from the help system?
[10:20] <jsgotangco> good morning mdke
[10:20] <ghee22> mdke:  well, as you can see in the mock screenshot, i took the office page word for word form Ubuntu - Help - Desktop Guide - Office.  So, no, it's not seperate.  But, also shown in the screenshot, I will add in the (Multimedia Guide)/(Welcome Center)/(whatever we're calling it) program a gif to show the user how to get to the office programs (show mouse clicking Applications, Office, and highlight the OO.o programs).
[10:21] <ghee22> mdke:  what do you think?
[10:25] <mdke> ghee22: sounds good. However I think that developing a separate application that does this will lead users to lose sight of the system help center and thus potentially they will only see a small snapshot of the documentation available. Id much rather see your project working directly on the system help center...
[10:31] <ghee22> mdke:  I have thought about this.  I haven't come to a perfect solution, yet;  what do you think of putting in big bold letters, that this a way to get help is, System - Help, and noting that this program is just a guide, not a help system.  I don't really think the user would get confused, if i'm very clear in front page the purpose of this program is:  to INTRODUCE the user to  Ubuntu's most used features (based on what the sysadmi
[10:33] <ghee22> mdke:  I will put in words, "This is not a help system.  The purpose of this program is to introduce you to the features used most for new Ubuntu users.  To get help, please refer to Ubuntu's help system found in System, help."  I can change the words, to something you guys like.  Also, I have a category (see screenshot) that refers to support which show the user how to get help.
[10:41] <ghee22> mdke:  what do you think?
[10:48] <ghee22> mdke:  i hope the silence implies we're finally getting along (agreeing).
[11:16] <mdke> ghee22: sorry, I'm at work, will read what you said above
[11:16] <mdke> ghee22: right. I'm afraid I don't see a distinction between a guide and a help system. The former is a subset of the latter. However, I think if your program is well integrated with the help system, it might work
[11:17] <LaserJock> mdke!
[11:17] <jsgotangco> grab him!
[11:17] <mdke> yo
[11:18] <LaserJock> mdke: I keep trying to ping you
[11:18] <LaserJock> but my chat goes in and out
[11:19] <mdke> yeah
[11:19] <LaserJock> mdke: I think Kamion, Keybuk, etc wanted to ask me about the doc string freeze
[11:20] <LaserJock> mdke: also I talked to elmo about using the team speak server for doc team sprints and he said that was fine
[11:20] <LaserJock> mdke: is there anything you wanted me to say about doc string freeze?
[11:20] <mdke> don't think so
[11:21] <LaserJock> have you seen their draft of the Release Schedule?
[11:21] <jsgotangco> yeah i think it would be sane to use TS for a small sprint
[11:22] <LaserJock> and gobby ;-)
[11:24] <LaserJock> hmm, I don't see a UI freeze on the edgy schedule
[11:24] <mdke> no, i haven't looked at it
[11:24] <LaserJock> but the string freeze is a week after Feature Freeze
[11:24] <mdke> 1.as for team speak, does it work?
[11:25] <LaserJock> it works, if people use it and right now if your not on ppc
[11:25] <LaserJock> but it is pretty simple
[11:25] <LaserJock> right now they have doc string freeze 6 weeks before release
[11:27] <LaserJock> The first BOF for the release schedule that I went to was only about development
[11:27] <LaserJock> so they didn't talk about docs at all, the second one had a lot of artwork stuff
[12:31] <sfllaw> ghee22: The convention should be to _introduce_ a feature.  Maybe with a screenshot?  And then hyperlink to the real documentation.
[12:31] <sfllaw> And maybe even link to something that will start up that feature for you?
[12:33] <sfllaw> That way, the introductory welcome message leads people into discovering features and documentaoin.
[12:33] <sfllaw> Which is what new users find helpful for transferring skills from one environment to the next.
[12:33] <sfllaw> OK.  Nap time.
[12:33] <sfllaw> Zzzz.
[12:35] <jsgotangco> zzzz too
[12:35] <jsgotangco> sfllaw: i heard there's a fete tonight in the city
[12:49] <apokryphos> the idea to move some random pages off the wiki (even though they are the wiki) into h.u.c/community is a bit curious IMO
[12:49] <LaserJock> random?
[12:50] <LaserJock> only pages marked CategoryDocumentation were moved
[12:50] <apokryphos> or ones under there, yes.
[12:52] <LaserJock> so it isn't random then
[12:52] <apokryphos> I didn't literally mean random, I meant different pages on the wiki
[12:52] <apokryphos> the question is why they moved there, not which category has
[12:54] <LaserJock> well, because documentation pages were supposed to move
[12:54] <LaserJock> or are you asking why we are doing the move in the first place?
[12:55] <apokryphos> exactly
[12:55] <LaserJock> see wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
[12:56] <ghee22> sfllaw:  that's an excellent idea.  i will provide you with more details..  keep the ideas rollin
[12:57] <LaserJock> sfllaw: what are you doing in here? ;-)
[12:57] <LaserJock> we have no bugs
[12:57] <LaserJock> :-)
[12:57] <jrib> Hi, is there a standard for dealing with ubuntu versions on the wiki, or should I just seperate the page into "for breezy" and "for dapper" sections?  I am updating the logitech mx1000 guide for dapper, if that matters.
[12:58] <LaserJock> jrib: I'd check the ubuntu-doc mailing list archives on lists.ubuntu.com
[12:58] <jrib> LaserJock: thanks
[12:58] <LaserJock> jrib: we recently had a discussion about that, but I'm not sure what the specifc suggestion was
[01:02] <apokryphos> anyhow, I'm going to add the FAQ to the main wiki page, unless there are objections...
[01:04] <LaserJock> you can always ask the ML if you are in doubt
[01:04] <Kamping_Kaiser> sorry if this has been discussed while i wasnt looking - but the /DocumentationTeam/Projects page has lots of stuff marked 'for dapper', will those now be 'for edgy'?
[01:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> and i'd like to help somehow (at last) :/
[01:21] <mdke> apokryphos: _all_ documentation was moved
[01:21] <mdke> nothing random about that
[01:22] <apokryphos> many pages I see still haven't transffered, but I suppose that's down to it still being in the transition stage?
[01:22] <mdke> apokryphos: no, that's because the pages didn't have the CategoryDocumentation tag
[01:22] <mdke> (erroneously)
[01:23] <mdke> if they are documentation, they need to be moved manually
[01:23] <apokryphos> ok, I'll mark such pages that I see
[01:23] <apokryphos> though, some pages will need a total restructure (i.e. Kubuntu), which provide both user and developer information
[01:24] <mdke> user information |= documentation
[01:25] <mdke> but yes, there is sometimes a difficult line to be drawn
[01:25] <apokryphos> what do you mean? Could you give a vague distinction, perhaps?
[01:27] <mdke> documentation is information which describes how to use the computer to do a task
[01:27] <apokryphos> hm, is [wiki:somedoc sometitle]  deprecated now, I see?
[01:27] <mdke> Pages which deal with the ubuntu community and provide information about teams, derivatives, projects, specifications and so on are not documentation
[01:28] <mdke> eh?
[01:28] <apokryphos> [wiki:SomeDoc Some Doc Title]  seems to be deprecated
[01:28] <dsas> apokryphos: Linking to another page inside the wiki is [:PageName: Display Text] 
[01:29] <apokryphos> Noticed it's that now, yes
[01:29] <mdke> "wiki:" has never been a valid way to link, to my knowledge
[01:29] <apokryphos> I saw it on several pages, so that's what I used
[01:30] <mdke> but if it was, nothing has changed
[01:30] <apokryphos> (and it used to work perfectly in the past)
[01:30] <jrib> I was trying to figure out that same problem right now
[01:30] <apokryphos> well, it's definitely changed in, say, the last 10 days?
[01:30] <mdke> no
[01:31] <apokryphos> well, it has :)
[01:31] <mdke> nothing at all has changed, for the last year at least
[01:31] <apokryphos> I'm sorry, but it certainly used to work (I used it a dozen times in a wiki page, and, well, now it isn't
[01:31] <apokryphos> that it matters, I'll jsut change the syntax
[01:31] <mdke> (1)you can say it has all you want, but it hasnt.
[01:31] <apokryphos> same for you, then :)
[01:32] <mdke> no, I know for a fact that the software has not been altered in any way
[01:38] <jrib> is there a way to search the mailing list archives?
[01:39] <mdke> you can probably search here: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc
[01:41] <jrib> mdke: thanks
[02:10] <LaserJock> mdke: ping
[02:34] <mdke> LaserJock_: yeah
[02:46] <Laser_away> mdke: sorry network is going off and on
[02:46] <Laser_away> mdke: Edgy will not have a UI freeze
[02:47] <Laser_away> Keybuk said that basically Feature Freeze will be the time when all features including artwork should be complete
[02:48] <Laser_away> also, a representitive from the art team will be going to the Thursday distro meetings
[02:48] <Laser_away> Keybuk asked that we also send a representitive
[02:48] <Laser_away> this way all the teams can keep tabs on each other's activities, etc.
[02:50] <Laser_away> mdke: should I email the list about these items?
[03:01] <mdke> Laser_away: guess so?
[03:04] <Laser_away> k
[03:04] <Laser_away> it might take me a little time to do it as I'm trying to draft a spec, etc. but I'll try to do it today
[03:10] <mdke> ok
[03:10] <mdke> Im not sure I can see the feasibility of sending a docteam representative to the distro meetings, or whether it will actually have any benefit, but I suppose it is up to them
[03:25] <Laser_away> mdke: well, I suppose you can discuss it with Keybuk or TB
[03:26] <Laser_away> mdke: I guess the idea is that art, doc, and dev teams should all be aware of what everybody is up to
[03:27] <mdke> yes.
[03:27] <jsgotangco> mmm?
[03:28] <Laser_away> jsgotangco: keybuk told me today that they want a doc team representitive at the distro meetings
[03:28] <jsgotangco> boy that small strawberry thingie outside was delicious
[03:28] <nixternal> lol
[03:28] <mdke> i just have my doubts about whether well be able to get someone there. It seems to me that they have enough difficulties with trying to ensure that employees get there at all hours of the day/night
[03:28] <jsgotangco> well its not like only one should be there mdke
[03:29] <Laser_away> well, they rotate six hours each time and Keybuck said that the person can just send a report f they can't make it
[03:29] <jsgotangco> i mean the meetings rotate and sometimes like me i just idle there so
[03:29] <mdke> jsgotangco: I still have my doubts
[03:29] <jsgotangco> shouldn't be that hard really
[03:29] <mdke> we'll see
[03:29] <Laser_away> mdke: well, it really isn't as big a deal for us as for art
[03:29] <jsgotangco> you'll just need someone doing a report if no one comes
[03:30] <mdke> Laser_away: yeah, I see that
[03:30] <Laser_away> they point was to help the team not have any "suprises"
[03:31] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: are you upstairs?
[03:31] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes, highvoltage and I are drafting ;-)
[03:31] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[03:31] <jsgotangco> have you seen rodrigo?
[03:31] <LaserJock> not for a while
[03:31] <jsgotangco> he seemed to have escaped again heh
[03:32] <LaserJock> maybe he went to Paris
[03:32] <jsgotangco> bastard!
[03:32] <LaserJock> well, maybe he wanted to find some more 4 euro water ;-)
[03:32] <jsgotangco> heh
[03:32] <jsgotangco> i hoarded a bottle yesterday to my room
[03:32] <LaserJock> oh, actually I remeber now that he was going to go the village and get some wine
[03:33] <jsgotangco> im not really keen on bringing wine home considering there's a wine store near my house that houses like a hundred french wines :/
[03:34] <LaserJock> well, I don't think he was planning on bringing it home ;-)
[03:34] <jsgotangco> he's going to bribe us!
[03:34] <LaserJock> yep
[03:52] <klepas> mdke: lovely interview :)
[03:53] <mdke> klepas: thanks. I was kicking myself afterwards that I didnt talk more about some things
[03:54] <mdke> still, nice that they are interested in docs
[03:56] <jsgotangco> your majesty!
[03:57] <LaserJock> what interview?
[03:58] <klepas> lugradio's latest ep
[04:02] <LaserJock> listening now
[04:03] <klepas> :)
[04:09] <jsgotangco> superstar mdke
[04:10] <LaserJock> mdke's a Rock Star!!
[04:11] <jsgotangco> we can only dream...
[04:18] <mdke> all lawyers are secretly rock stars
[04:18] <jsgotangco> i can only dream on being in your level
[04:26] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: it also helps that he's english so its already biased for startes
[04:30] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: hehe, true. He did fit in nicely ;-)
[05:57] <nixternal> with the move and all taking place with h.u.c and w.u.c...we can still go about CatCleanup like always?
[06:01] <LaserJock> I would think so
[06:02] <nixternal> some of the pages listed in CatCleanup don't have CatCleanup on the bottom of the pages either...It is like they kept the setting, just don' t display it
[06:07] <LaserJock> hmm, you sure it isn't in there somewhere?
[06:20] <mvirkkil> nixternal: You can easily grep the page by wgetting the raw code. 
[06:20] <mvirkkil> nixternal: Something like:
[06:20] <mvirkkil> wget -U "" -q -O - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=raw|grep Category
[06:20] <mvirkkil> Where you can replace the "Home" with any PageName 
[06:24] <nixternal> ahh i see it is in there...just not in the bottom portion of the page
[10:24] <claude> mgalvin: ping
[10:24] <mgalvin> claude: pong?
[10:24] <claude> about the weekly newsletter
[10:25] <mgalvin> whats up
[10:25] <claude> we just had an irc meeting for the french team
[10:25] <claude> and we'll have shortly the letter translated in french
[10:25] <claude> we just set up the process
[10:26] <claude> i'll told you when it is online
[10:26] <claude> i just wanted you to be aware of this
[10:27] <mgalvin> claude: excellent, thanks!
[10:29] <mgalvin> claude: i try to have them done every saturday night (US time) just so you know when to expect new issues to be ready for translation
[10:30] <claude> ok, thanks
[10:30] <claude> we'll try to have it translated in 2 or 3 days, if possible