[12:07] <Toadstool> hub: around?
[12:09] <hub> here
[12:09] <Toadstool> hub: hi, I and Gloubiboulga are helping Maxence (Sp4rKy) for planfacile, he's just uploaded a new version without the copy file
[12:09] <hub> Toadstool: why?
[12:09] <hub> Toadstool: I saw
[12:10] <hub> Toadstool: was quick
[12:10] <Toadstool> ok :)
[12:10] <Toadstool> yes, working on #ubuntu-fr-testing
[12:10] <hub> get the "motu-reviewer" spam
[12:10] <hub> s/get/getting/
[12:10] <hub> Toadstool: 'zetes au meeting Ubuntu?
[12:11] <Toadstool> Gauvain oui
[12:11] <Toadstool> moi non, je peux pas, je suis en plein exams :(
[12:12] <Sp4rKy> about planfacile, must i add the dl url to the debian/control in the description area
[12:12] <Sp4rKy> or just in the copyright
[12:13] <hub> Sp4rKy: c'est pratique
[12:13] <Sp4rKy> de ?
[12:13] <hub> Sp4rKy: celle de la "homepage" pas de download
[12:13] <Toadstool> d'avoir l'url dans la description
[12:13] <hub> vala
[12:13] <Sp4rKy> k
[12:13] <Sp4rKy> a fera un dput en + :)
[12:13] <Toadstool> t'es plus  a prs ;)
[12:14] <Sp4rKy> :p
[12:14] <hub> ouais
[12:14] <Sp4rKy> depuis quand on parle franais ici
[12:14] <Sp4rKy> je sais quemon anglais est nul mais quand meme
[12:14] <hub> Sp4rKy: depuis que ya que ca
[12:14] <Sp4rKy> :p
[12:14] <hub> tout le monde est en train de pioncer
[12:14] <hub> ou ils sont tous en train de boire
[12:15] <Toadstool> tiens, dormir... c'est une bonne ide a
[12:15] <Sp4rKy> mouiah
[12:16] <hub> pas encore pour moi
[12:16] <hub> c'est un poil tot
[12:16] <Toadstool> mme pas une sieste ? ;)
[12:16] <Sp4rKy> et hop un dput :)
[12:16] <hub> Toadstool: malalatete
[12:17] <hub> je prefere rentrer d'abord
[12:17] <Sp4rKy> :)
[12:17] <Toadstool> bon allez 'ne nuit/'night/'Nacht/Noche toussa
[12:17] <Sp4rKy> bn ToadZzZztool
[12:17] <Sp4rKy> hub , tu es un MOTU ?
[12:18] <hub> Sp4rKy: ouais
[12:18] <Sp4rKy> :)
[12:18] <hub> Sp4rKy: tu veux que je review le package completement?
[12:18] <Sp4rKy> cool tu va pouvoir regarder mon paquet :p :)
[12:18] <hub> ouais
[12:18] <hub> je devrait
[12:18] <Sp4rKy> si t'as le temps
[12:18] <hub> a partir de demain j'aurais un poil plus de temps
[12:18] <hub> ma copine sera loin
[12:18] <Sp4rKy> arf
[12:18] <hub> donc j'aurais que le chien a m'occuper :-)
[12:19] <Sp4rKy> :D
[12:19] <Sp4rKy> moi je travaille la journe donc la quele soir
[12:20] <Sp4rKy> bon dernier pbuild de audacious et dodo aprs :p
[12:20] <hub> moi aussi je travaille le jour
[12:20] <Sp4rKy> :p
[12:24] <hub> Erlang: #ubuntu-fr
[12:25] <hub> seulement des maudzi francais
[12:25] <Erlang> #ubuntu-qc, seulement des gentils qubecois.
[12:25] <Erlang> a parle pas beaucoup remarque
[12:25] <hub> vouais
[12:30] <Sp4rKy> bon allez bonne nuit
[12:30] <hub> Arrogance: you in Ottawa?
[12:31] <hub> c-ya all
[12:32] <Erlang> C, ya
[01:05] <Arrogance> hub, Toronto
[03:00] <zul> hey
[03:05] <ajmitch> hi
[03:05] <zul> how is it going?
[03:05] <ajmitch> ok
[03:22] <Kyral> oy Shower, then to mail the KDE-Bindings list for help
[07:01] <Yagisan> hey guys. Is C++ difficult to learn if you have no experience in it or C ?
[07:02] <dsas> Yagisan: It depends on what other programming language(s) you know
[07:02] <dsas> and how well you know them.
[07:02] <Yagisan> Assembler (x86), Shell script
[07:03] <Yagisan> I'm thinking the C++ is more useful for me WRT Ubuntu MOTU related stuff
[07:03] <dsas> Yagisan: If you're confident that you can pick it up (it is harder than java) you may want to go for it.
[07:03] <dsas> Yagisan: Yeah that's true.
[07:04] <ajmitch> go for c++
[07:04] <ajmitch> it has some weird, confusing bits
[07:04] <ajmitch> but it can be worth it
[07:04] <dsas> Yagisan: If you've got time before you have to make your decision, try to do some basic stuff in either and get a feel for what you like. I'm sure there's tutorials on the net.
[07:04] <Yagisan> dsas: I have 4 hours
[07:04] <ajmitch> Yagisan: flip a coin :)
[07:04] <dsas> :D
[07:05] <Mithrandir> four hours is plenty of time to play with both. :-)
[07:07] <theCore> Mithrandir: youin a h
[07:07] <Yagisan> C++
[07:07] <ajmitch> Yagisan: good
[07:07] <theCore> Mithrandir: you're in a hotel?
[07:08] <crimsun> theCore: the Paris dev conf
[07:08] <theCore> you're a bunch of lucky guys
[07:08] <crimsun> those guys are, yep.
[07:08] <Yagisan> now this will be interesting. At least I should find a good buck, and gcc is on everything I have
[07:09] <Yagisan> s/buck/book
[07:09] <theCore> Yagisan: good choice, just be careful to not shoot yourself in the foot
[07:09] <ajmitch> or let it rot your mind out
[07:09] <crimsun> Yagisan: I highly recommend Thinking in C++, 2nd Ed.  http://www.janiry.com/bruce-eckel/
[07:10] <Yagisan> theCore: I'm good at shooting myself in the foot. I think I perfected that
[07:10] <Yagisan> crimsun: thanks. /me makes note
[07:18] <theCore> Yagisan: Java has a stronger and cleaner design, but it's somehow very verbose
[07:20] <theCore> Yagisan: on the other side, C++ has a thing call templates that let define new syntax, which is very powerful feature but also very hard to use
[07:23] <theCore> is there any plans to get Seamonkey in the repos?
[07:24] <theCore> or Flock, and all those mozilla "branches"...
[07:26] <Yagisan> theCore: It looks like I can get a 2 for 1 deal with C++. in theory anyway, I could also pick up C
[07:27] <Lathiat> well not exactly
[07:27] <Lathiat> yes and no
[07:27] <Lathiat> theres alot to doign things in C++ that doesnt work in C
[07:27] <theCore> Yagisan: yeah, pick all three
[07:28] <Hobbsee> hi all
[07:29] <Yagisan> I wish I could, but I get 1 choice. Being the kind of guy that would like to have enough rope to hang himself with, C++ seems more attractive
[07:29] <theCore> Yagisan: try a dynamic language too
[07:29] <Yagisan> even if it means, installing mingw32-* and getting it going
[07:29] <Yagisan> G'day Hobbsee
[07:30] <Hobbsee> hi Yagisan :)
[07:55] <Yagisan> mmm 50% exemption nice :)
[07:56] <Yagisan> right, that's half a uni degree in 7 days. If only the rest could go as fast
[07:57] <Hobbsee> haha
[07:57] <Hobbsee> Yagisan: what degree?
[07:58] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: causing trouble in -devel again, I see
[07:58] <Yagisan> Hobbsee: this one http://handbook.cqu.edu.au/Handbook/programs_3.jsp?s=3&code=CQ18
[07:59] <ajmitch> shocking
[07:59] <Hobbsee> Yagisan: cool
[08:03] <Yagisan> Hobbsee: that's exactly what I thought too :)
[08:46] <dsas> If i'm using dh_clean do I need to make my own clean target in debian/rules?
[09:01] <Grebo5> Hello, any higherups here?
[09:02] <Hobbsee> hi Grebo5
[09:02] <Hobbsee> Grebo5: define "higher ups" - probalby in #ubuntu-devel
[09:02] <Grebo5> The download page for Ubuntu does not mention source code. The source code is not, unless I can be corrected as I just checked, included with the binary releases of Ubuntu. This is a GPL violation - and it pisses me off because I spent a good deal of time trying to find the source.
[09:02] <Grebo5> thanks :)
[09:03] <dsas> Grebo5: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+allpackages
[09:03] <dsas> Grebo5: It doesn't have to be included. Just available.
[09:04] <Grebo5> Can I put the binaries on my Internet server and put the source on a different Internet site?
[09:04] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: no
[09:04] <Grebo5> http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCSourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites
[09:04] <Grebo5> the answer is as Mithrandir said; NO
[09:04] <Grebo5> the binaries are NOT linked at the download site of Ubuntu
[09:04] <Grebo5> i mean source
[09:04] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: so?  They're next to the ISO images and they're next to the binaries in the pool
[09:05] <Mithrandir> it doesn't say that any download link has to be accompanied by a download source link.
[09:05] <Grebo5> The GPL says you must offer access to copy the source code "from the same place"; that is, next to the binaries.
[09:05] <Grebo5> next to the binaries
[09:05] <Grebo5> NEXT
[09:05] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: calm down.
[09:05] <Grebo5> I wouldn't make so much of a deal of it other than the fact I've been runing aroundl ooking
[09:07] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: you've not been looking very hard, then.  Look at http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/
[09:12] <Grebo5> I evetually found that site before you've helped me, but it took quite a bit of looking
[09:12] <raphink> Grebo5: Ubuntu is among the open-source projects that really make it a strong point to respect the GPL
[09:12] <Grebo5> i would have thought so, that's why i'm a little but unimpressed/surprised at this violation
[09:12] <Mithrandir> it's not a violation.
[09:12] <raphink> Grebo5: had you looked at some doc, you'd also have found that you can use deb-src entries in your sources.list and use apt-get source to get them
[09:12] <raphink> Grebo5: there is no violation
[09:12] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: all those sites are controlled by the same entity.
[09:13] <raphink> Grebo5: we provide the sources for all the open-source soft we distribute
[09:13] <Grebo5> it is a violation, the source code either MUST be included with the binary or an offer of downloading NEXT to the binary, or an offer made to give the soruce code for 3 years at cost
[09:13] <Grebo5> there is no 'other'
[09:13] <raphink> Grebo5: are you a lawyer?
[09:14] <raphink> Grebo5: this organization scheme with packages comes from Debian
[09:14] <Grebo5> no, but i can read and i suggest you read the GPL and also this: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCSourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites
[09:14] <Grebo5> Can I put the binaries on my Internet server and put the source on a different Internet site?
[09:14] <Grebo5>     The GPL says you must offer access to copy the source code "from the same place"; that is, next to the binaries.
[09:14] <raphink> now as far as I know Debian is maybe one of the very few projects that really make it a central point to respect the GPL to the very detail of it
[09:15] <raphink> Grebo5: all ubuntu servers have both the binaries and sources
[09:15] <raphink> in the same directory
[09:15] <raphink> Grebo5: use your eyes a bit
[09:15] <Grebo5> http://www.ubuntu.com/download
[09:15] <Grebo5> you show me the source here
[09:15] <Grebo5> you are offering downloads without the source
[09:16] <Grebo5> without even a LINK to the source
[09:17] <raphink> this page in particular is aimed to simple users
[09:17] <Grebo5> If you say so, what I'd like is the best place to email ubuntu to deal with this violation since the letter is already addressed to the FSF
[09:17] <raphink> they don't need to be confused with links to thousands of packages
[09:17] <raphink> if you know how to use google
[09:17] <raphink> you can find the source packages of ubuntu
[09:17] <raphink> they are on the same website
[09:17] <shawarma> Grebo5: The only thing you're required to do is offer to send the code via regular mail.
[09:17] <raphink> only with a different url
[09:18] <shawarma> Grebo5: Ubuntu goes further than that and allows you to download it. Very easily, i might add.
[09:18] <raphink> Grebo5: are you from the FSF yourself?
[09:18] <shawarma> Grebo5: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DistributeWithSourceOnInternet
[09:18] <raphink> Grebo5: what is your main activity in open-source, might I ask?
[09:18] <shawarma> Grebo5: But you just go ahead and write to FSF. Tell them i said hi.
[09:18] <raphink> hehe :)
[09:19] <raphink> I'm sure they'll be pleased to hear from you :)
[09:19] <Grebo5> shawarma: you are required to either: 1) offer the code with the binary together (e.g. zipped), 2) offer the ability to download the source code, 3) offer to give out the source code when asked for a period of 3 years at cost. If that download page is not doing any one of these 3 things then it is a violation, peroid.
[09:19] <Grebo5> Just put up the source code, is that so hard? I don't think so.
[09:19] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: the source code is there.
[09:20] <dsas> Grebo5: A) It's up. B) It's irrelevant - "FTP access to the source is not sufficient to satisfy section 3 of the GPL."
[09:20] <shawarma> Grebo5: You are REQUIRED to offer it via snail mail. That's it.
[09:20] <shawarma> Grebo5: The source code is available as it is. On the same servers.
[09:20] <shawarma> Grebo5: To anyone who cares to download it.
[09:20] <Grebo5> shawrma, then show me where they offer it via mail there? there is no notice, there is no code but there are downloads
[09:20] <shawarma> Grebo5: Yes, there is. 2 sec.
[09:20] <raphink> Grebo5: I'm sure youdon't need 3 years to find the sources on the net. Otherwise I'm very worried for you
[09:21] <Grebo5> raphink perhaps not but it should be there - why should people waste their time trying to find it when it is required to be there?
[09:21] <raphink> dholbach: hi, welcome to trollland
[09:21] <raphink> Grebo5: do you develop?
[09:21] <Hobbsee> hi dholbach
[09:21] <dholbach> hey guys
[09:21] <shawarma> grebo5: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
[09:21] <Grebo5> does it matter if i develop or not, is it not enough that I want the code?
[09:22] <shawarma> Grebo5: Search for "Can you send me source CDs".
[09:22] <Grebo5> as is my right?
[09:22] <raphink> Grebo5: do you see that if you had come here gently and had asked nicely how to get the source it would have been answered to you in about ... say ... 1 minute maximum?
[09:22] <LaserJock_> shawarma: up for some mao? ;-)
[09:22] <shawarma> Grebo5: What is it exactly that you feel is stopping you fro getting the source?
[09:22] <shawarma> LaserJock_: Always. :-)
[09:22] <shawarma> LaserJock_: Taking the name of our leader in vain. Tsk, tsk...
[09:22] <raphink> Grebo5: do you see that you're making everyone lose their time, and that you haven't even tried to understand how to get the source directly and efficiently?
[09:22] <Grebo5> raphink, i dont care about 'nice' i care about my rights and freedom to get the source. jumping though hopes is not apart of the GPL
[09:22] <LaserJock_> shawarma: heh, I think I can do better the next time
[09:23] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: source images are available at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/6.06/release/source/
[09:23] <shawarma> raphink: In my world, having to get source code via snailmail is "jumping through hoops". Typing "apt-get source linux-image-2.6.15-23-686" isn't.
[09:23] <shawarma> raphink: Sorry, that was for grebo5.
[09:24] <shawarma> Grebo5: What I just wrote to raphink was for you.
[09:24] <raphink> shawarma: hehe ;)
[09:24] <Grebo5> thanks Mithrandir, but I found what seems to be the source at archive.ubuntu...etc. But is it the source to what I downloaded? Where's the link at the main download page?
[09:25] <Grebo5> I think it should be up, and I'll be contacting people who will be able to *put* it up.
[09:25] <raphink> Grebo5: if you're bothered it's not the right source, then get the source and build it
[09:25] <raphink> Grebo5: all right, write to the FSF and say hi from the ubuntu devs
[09:25] <imbrandon_> gpl says get it the same way you got the binary , get it that way and ;e me get bacl to work , bah
[09:25] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: there's no requirement to have a source download link next to any binary download link.
[09:25] <dholbach> Grebo5: it's easily discoverable for people who want it
[09:25] <azeem> raphink: I don't think that is helpful
[09:25] <Grebo5> raphink, i am bothered that the GPL is in violation and my freedom to easily get the source is hampered, by what ever degree, by this apparent violation.
[09:26] <azeem> Grebo5: are you the copyright holder of any GPL software in Ubuntu?
[09:26] <Mithrandir> azeem: that's irrelevant.
[09:26] <Grebo5> thanks for your time, i have not been pursuaded that not having a link to the source isn't a violation (it is according to the FSF) and i hope that who ever can bring this to the attention of the website developers would do that
[09:27] <Grebo5> i'll be emailing them, but since there is no abuse@ubuntu.com etc., only support bullshit, we'll see if my letter gets though ;)
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: cdimage.ubuntu.com and releases.ubuntu.com are next to each other, so I'm quite sure we're fine wrt to the "offer source and binaries from the same site" clause.
 Grebo5: there's no requirement to have a source download link next to any binary download link. || http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#TOCSourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites
[09:28] <Mithrandir> (and more importantly, they're both controlled by the same entity)
[09:28] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: that talks about sites you don't control.
[09:28] <Grebo5> read that site, read the GPL - i think you are wrong but i'll listen as to why the FSF is wrong
[09:28] <Grebo5> ;)
[09:29] <h4xter> will there be a dapper "respin"?
[09:29] <robitaille> Grebo5: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+filebug
[09:29] <dholbach> how hard will it be to get back to something productive?
[09:29] <raphink> robitaille: good point :)
[09:29] <h4xter> Grebo5: who said gpl was wrong?
[09:29] <azeem> dholbach: just make a decision that this discussion is off-topic :)
[09:29] <raphink> dholbach: good point too :)
[09:29] <dholbach> this channel is about maintenance of universe and multiverse packages and getting involved in package maintenance
[09:30] <highvoltage> morning jammcq_laptop
[09:30] <jammcq_laptop> highvoltage: howdie
[09:30] <dsas> If i'm using dh_clean do I need to make my own clean target in debian/rules? Is the answer "it depends"?
[09:30] <dholbach> I'd like all the MOTU folks to read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EasierMotuing - I'd really like to hear what you think about it and if you think it will make things better
[09:31] <LaserJock> it rocks! ;-)
[09:31] <Gloubiboulga> indeed :)
[09:31] <raphink> dholbach: I'm definitely for MOTU school sessions
[09:32] <raphink> with, say, weekly introduction lectures
[09:32] <Hobbsee> dholbach: it looks good to me :)
[09:32] <raphink> and I'm also for allowing good wanabees to commens on REVU
[09:32] <h4xter> will there be a dapper "respin"?
[09:32] <Mithrandir> h4xter: what do you mean by respin?
[09:32] <raphink> since it makse them practice reviewing and thus improve their packaging skills
[09:33] <h4xter> Mithrandir: a remake, just like fedora's "respins"
[09:33] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: I think the idea is to rotate so everybody gets a chance
[09:33] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: yeah i know :P
[09:34] <Mithrandir> h4xter: I don't know about fedora, so without you telling me what you mean by remake, I can't answer your question.
[09:34] <LaserJock> why ever not? by the time I get back to the US I might be ready for 4am meetings for a few days ;-)
[09:35] <h4xter> Mithrandir: a dapper with some bugs fixed, which also includes the most recent updates (security but not only)
[09:35] <dholbach> we'll keep the logs and wiki-fy them (for people who are anot around) - i think we'll rotate in time, so that should be fine
[09:35] <Mithrandir> h4xter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperPointReleaseProcess
[09:35] <h4xter> Mithrandir: so that people won't first download dapper and then the updates
[09:36] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: haha
[09:36] <Hobbsee> dholbach: yeah, sounds sensibile
[09:36] <Hobbsee> -i
[09:36] <h4xter> Mithrandir: cool! is it a new initiative?
[09:36] <Mithrandir> h4xter: yes
[09:37] <h4xter> Mithrandir: very very nice thank you
[09:37] <LaserJock> dholbach: ohh, I like the idea of having reference packages
[09:40] <dsas> Speaking as an utter noob, reference packages sound like a great idea. Particularly for the non autotools cases which the documentation doesn't cover.
[09:47] <shawarma> raphink: did you not actually get access to comment before you were a MOTU? Or am I confusing you with someone else?
[09:47] <LaserJock> he did, if I remember right
[09:48] <shawarma> LaserJock: Are you at a BOF?
[09:48] <LaserJock> no
[09:48] <LaserJock> I'm trying to catch up after the mao game ;-)
[09:48] <shawarma> My schedule is kind of empty this morning, so I'm up for a game: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/schedule/2006-06-22/shawarma.html
[09:49] <LaserJock> hmm, and anreas is over there too
[09:49] <LaserJock> andreas
[09:49] <shawarma> Oui.
[09:49] <shawarma> We need one of the regulars, though.
[09:50] <shawarma> 2 sec..
[09:50] <LaserJock> hmm, let me check *my* schedule
[09:50] <shawarma> Hmm... both Ian and Daniel look appear to be busy.
[09:51] <shawarma> I COULD also just try to get some work done. I found a Chairman game playing thing on the web somewhere. :-)
[09:52] <LaserJock> heh
[09:52] <shawarma> http://kevan.org/games/maobot.html
[09:53] <raphink> shawarma: yes I did
[09:54] <raphink> shawarma: and that was a great packaging education :)
[09:54] <shawarma> raphink: I'd imagine.
[09:54] <raphink> shawarma: as it is now, I (and others, too) often sponsor comments for wanabees, by email
[09:55] <shawarma> raphink: I suppose that works, but keeping it on revu would be better. That way everyone can learn from everyone's mistakes.
[09:55] <Mithrandir> Grebo5: you'll be happy to know that http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.06/ now includes a link to the source images too.
[09:55] <raphink> shawarma: I meant on revu
[09:56] <shawarma> raphink: Huh? You wrote "by email"?
[09:56] <raphink> shawarma: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2444
[09:57] <raphink> someone (in this case phanatic) writes a comment and send it by email to a reviewer, who sponsors it on REVU
[09:57] <shawarma> raphink: Oh! Now I get it.
[10:00] <raphink> ;)
[10:05] <Toadstool> 'morning
[10:05] <antinobody> hey there
[10:07] <antinobody> I could be asking the wrong folks, but does anyone here have any idea why, when the ati drivers don't appear to work for any of the newer ati cards, and the radeon drivers often do, the ati driver is still the default?
[10:07] <antinobody> well, the auto-detected one anyway
[10:07] <Kagou> hi
[10:07] <shawarma> I thought the radeon driver and ati driver were one and the same now a days?
[10:07] <antinobody> hello again Kagou
[10:08] <antinobody> well, not in functionality, I can vouch for that much
[10:09] <antinobody> my plan is to sift through the code for both, figure out the difference, and see if that explains why one works and the other doesn't
[10:09] <shawarma> I mean like the ati driver being kind of a "superdriver" containing the different subdrivers of ati like radeon..
[10:09] <antinobody> then, once I lose my mind, to attempt to take over the world
[10:09] <antinobody> hmm, that makes sense, but in the case of all the radeons since the 9600 (at least that seems like the cutoff)
[10:09] <antinobody> that ati drivers fail
[10:10] <antinobody> the radeon work, at least partially
[10:10] <antinobody> understand, I'm new to all of this
[10:15] <Gloubiboulga> Could we schedule a REVU day?
[10:16] <Gloubiboulga> I really mean *one*, to go through the amount of packages waiting
[10:17] <Gloubiboulga> I'll mail the list
[10:17] <dholbach> thanks Gloubiboulga
[10:17] <LaserJock> Gloubiboulga: we can do anything, we just need to get people to show up :-)
[10:18] <Toadstool> hi dholbach, LaserJock
[10:19] <antinobody> What is a REVU day?
[10:20] <zakame> hi all;
[10:20] <Hobbsee> hi zakame
[10:21] <antinobody> Hello zakame
[10:21] <Gloubiboulga> hi zakame
[10:21] <Toadstool> hi zakame
[10:21] <antinobody> No, seriously, ignorant though it may prove me, what is a REVU day?
[10:21] <shawarma> antinobody: A day where we focus on REVU (http://revu.tauware.de). Like reviewing packages and so on.
[10:21] <antinobody> Oh
[10:21] <antinobody> thank you
[10:21] <shawarma> np
[10:21] <zakame> hi Hobbsee antinobody Gloubiboulga Toadstool
[10:21] <zakame> my monitor just died of natural causes :/
[10:22] <zakame> so here I am in the cafe now, lugging my CPU aroubnd :P
[10:22] <antinobody> My laptop died, the official report claims a suicide, but I suspect foul play on the part of Windows
[10:22] <antinobody> That is sad, however
[10:47] <LaserJock> dholbach: is easy motuing in review?
[10:47] <dholbach> LaserJock: yes
[10:47] <LaserJock> god
[10:47] <LaserJock> good, I meant
[10:48] <LaserJock> lol
[10:48] <dholbach> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easier-motuing
[10:50] <siretart> anyone still not in the revu keyring, but wants to be added?
[10:50] <siretart> I need a testperson :)
[10:51] <antinobody> umm, I'm not in the keyring, but I don't know whether I can be added
[10:51] <antinobody> what is the keyring?
[10:51] <imbrandon> if you have a gpgkey you can be added, its for uploading packages to be revu'd
[10:52] <imbrandon> brb
[10:52] <siretart> antinobody: do you package things and want them to be added to http://revu.tauware.de?
[10:52] <Hobbsee> siretart: well, if i use a newer email address to upload, but have my old address to sign into revu with, it means i cant comment on my own uploads.  how do i fix that?
[10:52] <antinobody> ha, no, and I don't have a signed key anyway
[10:52] <dholbach> Gloubiboulga: I'll approve your post to ubuntu-motu@ or want to resend?
[10:54] <raphink> antinobody: you don't need it signed anyway
[10:54] <Hobbsee> siretart: i dont know if that means you should drop the old email off the keyring, and add the new email to the keyring - even though they use the same key.
[10:54] <raphink> yet
[10:54] <Hobbsee> raphink: yet?
[10:54] <Hobbsee> you mean we'll have to start having signed keys soon?
[10:54] <raphink> Hobbsee: well it's good to have it signed to be a dev
[10:54] <siretart> Hobbsee: thats a bit tricky. because we use a separate database for authentication
[10:54] <raphink> but not to upload to revu
[10:54] <Hobbsee> raphink: yeah yeah :P  in a week or so, mine will be signed.
[10:54] <raphink> Hobbsee: by whom?
[10:54] <siretart> Hobbsee: basically your email is your login. and currently, logins are created on initial upload
[10:54] <Hobbsee> siretart: right...
[10:54] <siretart> Hobbsee: does this answer your question?
[10:55] <Hobbsee> siretart: yes, but i cant comment on my hobbsee@ubuntu.com email uploads with my hobbsee@gmail.com logins
[10:55] <Hobbsee> siretart: no, not really
[10:55] <Hobbsee> raphink: ajmitch, and maybe stevenk - how many people does it need to be signed by again?
[10:55] <Hobbsee> er, - email from my statement
[10:55] <raphink> doesn't matter Hobbsee
[10:55] <siretart> Hobbsee: You have uploaded a package, and used what email?
[10:56] <raphink> depends on who signs it
[10:56] <siretart> in debian/changelog?
[10:56] <Hobbsee> siretart: i upload packages using hobbsee@ubuntu.com
[10:56] <raphink> if you get it signed by all your neighbours, we don't mind
[10:56] <Hobbsee> raphink: well, definetly ajmitch, for one
[10:56] <raphink> but if you get it signed by one ubuntu or debian dev
[10:56] <raphink> then it's enough :)
[10:56] <Hobbsee> oh good
[10:56] <raphink> Hobbsee: ajmitch is definitely enough
[10:56] <Hobbsee> hehe
[10:56] <siretart> Hobbsee: then this is your login id
[10:56] <raphink> imo :)
[10:57] <siretart> Hobbsee: if you want to use your gmail, you'd have to upload a package with your gmail.com email in debian/changelog
[10:57] <Hobbsee> siretart: but it doesnt work.  even with the recover password
[10:57] <siretart> ah
[10:57] <siretart> ok, then this is a strange bug
[10:57] <siretart> this will go away as soon as we authenticate against lp
[10:58] <imbrandon> moins Hobbsee dholbach siretart raphink
[10:58] <raphink> hi imbrandon
[10:58] <imbrandon> yea i need to lookup someone close to me to sign my key
[10:58] <Hobbsee> hi imbrandon
[10:58] <imbrandon> havent got arround to it
[11:00] <Hobbsee> siretart: argh!  someone fixed it!  it didnt work a few days ago!
[11:00] <raphink> where are you imbrandon?
[11:00] <imbrandon> kansas city USA
[11:01] <antinobody> I live in the same country...
[11:01] <antinobody> only like, 1500 miles west
[11:01] <Hobbsee> siretart: i tried it with that username and password, and it refused to work a few days ago.  and now it does.  how annoying.
[11:01] <imbrandon> lol
[11:02] <LaserJock> antinobody: where?
[11:02] <imbrandon> antinobody, i used to like about 1500 miles west of here in reno
[11:02] <imbrandon> ;)
[11:02] <LaserJock> wahoo!
[11:02] <imbrandon> LaserJock, is in reno
[11:02] <imbrandon> lol
[11:02] <antinobody> Laserjock Oregon
[11:02] <LaserJock> to bad I only found out about the Reno LUG the day before I left for Paris ;-)
[11:02] <imbrandon> LaserJock, hey next time i'm visiting reno ( in about 30  days ) you should sign my pgp key ;)
[11:03] <LaserJock> yes, I need to get some people to sign my key here
[11:03] <LaserJock> antinobody: cool
[11:03] <imbrandon> uht oh, left coast people ;)
[11:03] <imbrandon> j/k
[11:03] <antinobody> I like my coast dammit
[11:04] <LaserJock> hehe
[11:04] <imbrandon> its a bad midwest political joke ;)
[11:04] <imbrandon> left coast == political left ;)
[11:04] <antinobody> Oh, I GET IT
[11:04] <antinobody> yeah, I'm actually a socialist, so I'm well to the left of even my geographic location
[11:04] <LaserJock> heh
[11:05] <antinobody> And I'm a Portlander
[11:05] <antinobody> that's saying something
[11:05] <imbrandon> heh
[11:05] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:05] <LaserJock> Portland has all the commies :-)
[11:05] <antinobody> That's not true, there are commies in other cities
[11:05] <imbrandon> lol
[11:06] <LaserJock> I have an aunt and uncle living in Portland
[11:06] <LaserJock> it's a neat city to visit
[11:06] <antinobody> It's a nice place to go to school as well
[11:06] <LaserJock> although there is a bit of a war between Reno and Portland, they both claim "Biggest Little City" status ;-)
[11:07] <antinobody> Really?  I think Portland, being the biggest city in the state, really can't claim that status.  Even if it's friendlier than the average metropolis, it HAS to act as a "big" city, for the state to even function
[11:08] <antinobody> economically anyway
[11:08] <LaserJock> well, we have a big arch on the main street with casinos that has it so...
[11:08] <imbrandon> varginia street ;)
[11:09] <LaserJock> heh
[11:09] <imbrandon> i spent many of nights under the light of that neon sign ;)
[11:09] <LaserJock> I avoid it like the plague, it is either under construction or closed for an even
[11:09] <LaserJock> t
[11:09] <imbrandon> yea , last time i was down on varginia street was the bull run
[11:10] <imbrandon> err maybe the ribfest
[11:10] <imbrandon> *dont rember*
[11:10] <LaserJock> it's always something
[11:10] <imbrandon> moving the train under the streets helped alot though
[11:11] <LaserJock> imbrandon: well, except they are still doing a lot of work on virginia and sierra for it
[11:16] <antinobody> ...
[11:16] <imbrandon> heh
[11:16] <Hobbsee> hah
[11:17] <antinobody> 93 credits into college, I STILL don't use the right too
[11:17] <Hobbsee> antinobody: the study machine has been having about 4 lots of problems in the past couple of months.
[11:17] <antinobody> Study machine?
[11:18] <Hobbsee> yeah, machine in the study aka dad's machine
[11:19] <Hobbsee> well, one of his machines
[11:19] <Hobbsee> nice machine, just needs a good reformat.
[11:19] <imbrandon> and kubuntu ;)
[11:19] <Hobbsee> he doesnt like that idea.
[11:19] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, put kubuntu with my royale theme ;)
[11:19] <Hobbsee> although he hasnt asked again for the live cd, i note.  oh well
[11:19] <Hobbsee> ewww!
[11:20] <imbrandon> hehe might convince him , better than running actual windows ;)
[11:20] <antinobody> ...ewww?  What kind of theme is this?
[11:20] <Hobbsee> he likes windows
[11:20] <Hobbsee> antinobody: an XP'ish theme that looks horrible.
[11:20] <Hobbsee> actually, it does kinda look pretty - but it's like an absolute clone of XP.
[11:20] <imbrandon> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~imbrandon/screenshots/snapshot1.png
[11:21] <antinobody> I see, it seems blasphemous does it?
[11:21] <Hobbsee> it still looks better than standard XP
[11:21] <imbrandon> ;)
[11:21] <imbrandon> and works better too ;)
[11:22] <antinobody> it's not like making it LOOK like windows would make it run like it
[11:22] <imbrandon> hey if it works like linux and looks like windows i love it ( personal opinion )
[11:23] <imbrandon> antinobody, btw that screenshot is kde 3.5.3 kubuntu dapper ;) /me also has a nice howto setup for installing it too for newbs now
[11:31] <shawarma> if you want it to work like windows you can put some bad RAM in it. :-)
[11:32] <imbrandon> haha
[11:38] <Hobbsee> shawarma: i think something like that's happening here...this is painful
[11:39] <shawarma> Hobbsee: run memtest from grub. It's quite thorough.
[11:39] <Hobbsee> shawarma: this is the XP study computer i was referring to.  memtest found nothing on my machine.
[11:42] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, you can run memtest from the livecd on the windows box too ;)
[11:43] <Hobbsee> haha
[11:43] <Hobbsee> even on my hoary cd?
[11:43] <imbrandon> yea it should be on the horay cd too
[11:43] <LaserJock> Hoary?
[11:43] <Hobbsee> oh well, that's got my ~1 gig backup off of there - it's his problem now.  it's so slow, cos it's out of space, it seems.
[11:43] <imbrandon> in the grub menu
[11:43] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: yeah, kubuntu hoary live cd, it's what i used to repair it last time.
[11:44] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: jeeze, that's so last year :-)
[11:44] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: haha
[11:44] <ajmitch> evening
[11:44] <LaserJock> get with the program, Edgy's the all the rage ;-)
[11:44] <Hobbsee> yeah, it was my first linux cd :P
[11:44] <Hobbsee> haha
[11:44] <Hobbsee> evening ajmitch
[11:44] <ajmitch> I see we had a fun discussion about the GPL earlier
[11:44] <LaserJock> hehe
[11:44] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: yes...haha
[11:45] <LaserJock> GPL violations abound in Ubuntu it seems :-)
[11:45] <ajmitch> some people are a little on edge...
[11:45] <imbrandon> hahah ajmitch yea i'm glad i missed that one
[11:45] <ajmitch> all ready to fire off a letter to the FSF & all
[11:45] <LaserJock> yeah, free and open source software isn't enough ;-)
[11:46] <ajmitch> siretart: thank you for the keyring work :)
[11:47] <LaserJock> yeah, that is awesome, is it working now?
[11:47] <ajmitch> something I thought of today - links on REVU to limit the view
[11:48] <ajmitch> so that you only see new, unarchived packages
[11:48] <LaserJock> yep, get to hacking
[11:48] <LaserJock> we need REVU hackers :-)
[11:48] <ajmitch> shouldn't take long
[11:49] <raphink> ajmitch how do you mean?
[11:49] <ajmitch> except I'll have to hack on the live site :)
[11:49] <imbrandon> haha
[11:49] <imbrandon> thats always fun
[11:49] <ajmitch> raphink: currently all the new & updated packages & also archived packages are shown
[11:49] <LaserJock> filtering the view
[11:49] <ajmitch> I just want some filtering & maybe some sorting by column
[11:50] <raphink> ajmitch: ah right
[11:50] <raphink> I'd also like more details
[11:50] <ajmitch> the EasierMotuing spec also suggests we put the short description there
[11:50] <raphink> like what I have here http://raphink.net/ubuntu/
[11:50] <ajmitch> if possible
[11:50] <raphink> showing the short description of packages
[11:51] <ajmitch> that may need some DB hacking
[11:51] <raphink> so you know what kind of thing you're going to review
[11:51] <ajmitch> yep
[11:51] <raphink> can be nice
[11:51] <ajmitch> it's much more useful
[11:51] <LaserJock> raphink: that was suggested in our easy motuing discussion
[11:51] <LaserJock> doh, I'm slow
[11:51] <raphink> great
[11:51] <ajmitch> it'll probably be just another DB field, so I'll have to remember how to mangle it without losing data ;)
[11:53] <LaserJock> :/ I can never remember where to get the REVU code
[11:53] <LaserJock> siretart: ^^ ?
[11:53] <ajmitch> just a min..
[11:54] <ajmitch> LaserJock: on tiber.. /srv/svn/revu
[11:54] <ajmitch> so you can probably grab it via ssh
[11:54] <LaserJock> no bzr? must be REVU2 is bzr
[11:54] <ajmitch> REVU2 used to be svn as well
[11:55] <ajmitch> I haven't seen a recent REVU2 branch...
[11:55] <ajmitch> I'll try & get svn2bzr off jelmer
[11:55] <LaserJock> I sweare raphink and siretart were using bzr on it
[11:55] <raphink> LaserJock: don't swear
[11:56] <LaserJock> maybe that was just the revu tools thing
[11:56] <ajmitch> heh
[11:56] <ajmitch> we could just put the code in a bzr branch on the supermirror :)
[11:56] <raphink> ++
[11:57] <ajmitch> once we make sure it doesn't have any nasty bits like passwords
[11:57] <imbrandon> ouch yea its never good to code those in ;)
[11:58] <siretart> LaserJock: no, we started with svn, and didn't switch yet
[11:59] <ajmitch> siretart: jelmer asked me to sponsor an svn2bzr package, so we can use that or tailor to switch
[11:59] <siretart> LaserJock: I'd have no problems with switching to bzr, though
[11:59] <siretart> ajmitch: if you could convert them, that'll be great!
[11:59] <LaserJock> siretart: what's the url for the svn?
[11:59] <ajmitch> siretart: you don't mind using the supermirror as a canonical branch, so to speak? :)
[11:59] <siretart> LaserJock: svn co svn+ssh://srv/svn/revu{,2}
[12:00] <siretart> ajmitch: I don't mind at all, just tell me from where I can branch from ;)
[12:00] <LaserJock> siretart: thanks
[12:00] <siretart> ajmitch: but speaking of launchpad, I think we should register a 'product' for revu then, no?
[12:00] <ajmitch> siretart: if you could register a product
[12:00] <ajmitch> yeah :)
[12:00] <siretart> I'm on it
[12:01] <ajmitch> LaserJock: svn co svn+ssh://tiber.tauware.de/srv/svn/revu
[12:01] <ajmitch> siretart: have the branch owned by ubuntu-dev?
[12:01] <LaserJock> bah, that url didn't work for me
[12:02] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it will if you use the hostname
[12:02] <ajmitch> and it'll ask for your password about 3 times
[12:02] <ajmitch> since you have an account on tiber, right?
[12:02] <LaserJock> yeah
[12:03] <siretart> ajmitch: done. https://launchpad.net/products/revu/ is ready
[12:03] <ajmitch> thanks
[12:03] <ajmitch> trying to track down jelmer's branch now
[12:04] <ajmitch> got it
[12:05] <siretart> LaserJock: retry now, please
[12:07] <ajmitch> siretart: great, now we can use malone for the various feature requests
[12:09] <ajmitch> hi \sh
[12:09] <\sh> moins
[12:10] <LaserJock> ok, I got it
[12:14] <siretart> ajmitch: as you've seen, I've added you to 'revu hackers'
[12:14] <siretart> ah, sure you have :)
[12:14] <ajmitch> another team? :)
[12:15] <ajmitch> too busy trying to find the right svn2bzr :)
[12:15] <siretart> well, it seems to be required for the 'driver' stuff
[12:15] <siretart> then don't let me disturb you :)
[12:15] <ajmitch> hehe
[12:16] <LaserJock> cool, there is a revu hackers team
[12:16] <siretart> since about 3 mins
[12:17] <LaserJock> nice
[12:18] <ajmitch> well, that seemed to work
[12:19] <ajmitch> except that yes, we do have the DB password in svn
[12:19] <siretart> hm.
[12:19] <siretart> is that that critical?
[12:19] <Mithrandir> it's bad, at least.
[12:19] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: svn2bzr is called "tailor"
[12:20] <ajmitch> Mithrandir: tailor is a separate tool, however
[12:20] <Mithrandir> yes, and? :-)
[12:23] <ajmitch> there probably isn't a way to really remove a file from svn's history
[12:23] <siretart> ajmitch: no, let's 'just' change it on tiber
[12:23] <Mithrandir> svnadmin dump, edit dump, svnadmin load
[12:24] <ajmitch> siretart: change db password?
[12:24] <siretart> ajmitch: well, on tiber.
[12:25] <ajmitch> makes sense, I guess
[12:25] <ajmitch> Mithrandir: have a good swim this morning? :)
[12:25] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: yup
[12:26] <Mithrandir> ajmitch: are you stalking my blog?
[12:26] <ajmitch> no, you mentioned it in here earlier when I was around
[12:26] <Mithrandir> ah
[12:26] <Mithrandir> yeah, true
[12:26] <Mithrandir> it was nice.
[12:26] <Mithrandir> excellent way to start the day.
[12:26] <tseng> hi tollef
[12:26] <ajmitch> oh great, spiv has taken over planet ubuntu
[12:27] <ajmitch> hello tseng
[12:27] <tseng> hi
[12:27] <Mithrandir> hiya tseng
[12:27] <antinobody> hello
[12:27] <antinobody> tseng
[12:27] <Mithrandir> antinobody, that's everybody, right?
[12:29] <antinobody> no se
[12:29] <antinobody> de hecho, yo se nada sobre nada
[12:29] <Mithrandir> -ELANG.
[12:30] <antinobody> Oh
[12:30] <antinobody> I don't know
[12:30] <antinobody> in fact, I don't know anything about anything
[12:30] <tseng> I got enough of that
[12:30] <Mithrandir> nobody is nobody.  anti+no$foo must be every$foo.
[12:30] <Mithrandir> right?
[12:30] <siretart> ajmitch: password changed
[12:30] <ajmitch> siretart: tell me when I can push this branch to launchpad
[12:30] <ajmitch> ok :)
[12:30] <antinobody> -ELANG
[12:30] <tseng> Mithrandir: antibody is an english medical term
[12:31] <tseng> Mithrandir: antinobody is a clever twist
[12:31] <antinobody> it is?
[12:31] <Mithrandir> tseng: true dat.
[12:31] <tseng> I thought so.
[12:31] <antinobody> I hadn't thought of that
[12:31] <tseng> oh
[12:31] <Mithrandir> I know what antibodies are but I didn't connect the dots in this case.
[12:31] <tseng> then I guess I am the clever one
[12:31] <antinobody> It was more a philisophical description
[12:31] <antinobody> Mithrandir neither did I
[12:34] <ajmitch> hello StevenK
[12:34] <ajmitch> siretart: https://launchpad.net/products/revu/+branches
[12:34] <ajmitch> currently pushing
[12:35] <siretart> ajmitch: w00t :)
[12:35] <siretart> ajmitch: this is for revu1, right? could you do this as well with the revu2 branch?
[12:35] <ajmitch> sure
[12:35] <siretart> thanks
[12:37] <ajmitch> just push it as branch name revu2?
[12:37] <ajmitch> I shouldn't have named the 1st one trunk, I guess
[12:37] <ajmitch> oh well :)
[12:37] <ajmitch> revu2 converted
[12:37] <siretart> revu2/trunk should do fine
[12:37] <ajmitch> you have a revu2 product?
[12:38] <siretart> oh, thats the product name, I see
[12:38] <siretart> no, no other product
[12:38] <ajmitch> I should check if we can rename branches
[12:38] <siretart> revu/revu2-trunk should do fine
[12:38] <siretart> I don't think so
[12:39] <siretart> I don't think that you can rename branches
[12:39] <ajmitch> pushing revu2
[12:43] <LaserJock> the LP admins can change things
[12:43] <ajmitch> that's what I figured
[12:46] <siretart> ajmitch: finished pushing trunk?
[12:46] <ajmitch> nope
[12:46] <ajmitch> it's sloooow
[12:46] <siretart> ah, ok
[12:49] <ajmitch> siretart: trunk pushed
[12:50] <siretart> checking out
[12:56] <siretart> great. full history saved. good work, ajmitch
[12:56] <Hobbsee> hi ajmitch and StevenK
[12:56] <ajmitch> thank jelmer if you see him round :)
[12:57] <ajmitch> hello Hobbsee
[12:58] <siretart> hmm.. the revu2-trunk has tags/ and branches/ subdirs included
[12:58] <ajmitch> hm
[12:58] <siretart> ajmitch: I remember you could prefix that in tailor, no?
[12:58] <ajmitch> I must have stuffed up there
[01:00] <siretart> what shall we do now? replace that bzr import or 'fix' it?
[01:00] <ajmitch> siretart: what do you think of adding the short description to the SourcePackage table for revu?
[01:00] <ajmitch> can we replace it?
[01:00] <siretart> ajmitch: yes, by a hack: you login with 'sftp' on bazaar.lauchpad.net, and replace all files in the .bzr subdir
[01:00] <ajmitch> without asking an admin to remove the branch
[01:00] <ajmitch> I worried about that :)
[01:00] <siretart> I've done this before, it works
[01:01] <ajmitch> might as well replace it
[01:01] <siretart> the trick is to not remove the .bzr directory itself (you don't have permission to do that anyway)
[01:01] <siretart> and to not use bzr, but e.g. lftp or nautilus
[01:04] <ajmitch> and the trick of getting the right directory
[01:04] <siretart> oh. right
[01:05] <ajmitch> ok, I'm in with sftp, just rm everything in the .bzr dir for that branch?
[01:08] <ajmitch> good, nautilus works :)
[01:08] <siretart> jepp
[01:53] <chore> if i want to chmod a ntfs partition it says it can't ("read-only file system"). is there anything i can do?
[01:55] <DarkMageZ> chore, ntfs write support is considered experimental and not reasonably safe
[01:55] <chore> DarkMageZ: i only want to make it accessible read-only to unprivileged users
[01:56] <DarkMageZ> hmm, to memory their was something about mounting ntfs partitions in the wiki (wiki.ubuntu.com), setting permissions and such
[01:56] <azeem> chore: what node are you chmodding?
[01:58] <chore> azeem: /media/hda1, if i understood well your question
[02:12] <chore> is it safe to read/write ntfs partitions?
[02:12] <chore> (using fuse)
[02:12] <Hobbsee> chore: it's not really safe at all.
[02:13] <chore> Hobbsee: could it corrupt the data on the partition?
[02:13] <chore> Hobbsee: is there any safer approach then?
[02:15] <dsas> chore: captive-ntfs is arguably the safest. I don't trust any of them though and won't use them on my systems.
[02:16] <imbrandon> chore, yes it most likely WILL corrupt the data ( using fuse ) there is a safer way called captive-ntfs ( google ) that uses native ntfs dll's and wine but its still not without worry and its also very slow
[02:16] <imbrandon> note: also you need a valid windows lic to use captive ^^
[02:19] <kelmo> siretart: any chance i can coax your opinion from you about my last announcement on pkg-wpa in the coming days?
[02:19] <chore> thank you
[02:19] <chore> imbrandon: i am using a pirated copy of windows anyway
[02:20] <chore> imbrandon: i hate buying things from microsoft
[02:20] <siretart> kelmo: hey kelmo
[02:20] <siretart> kelmo: I've been thinking for a while about the init script
[02:20] <kelmo> siretart: hey (sorry, forgot my manners)
[02:21] <siretart> kelmo: I'm still not decided yet I cannot exactly explain why I don't like it
[02:21] <kelmo> siretart: do you think I _like_ it?
[02:21] <siretart> atm its just a feeling, and I want to think more deeply about it before answering
[02:21] <chore> dsas, imbrandon, Hobbsee: which approach is considered the most promising of them all (for accessing ntfs read-write)?
[02:21] <kelmo> siretart: i do not, but have no better alternative
[02:22] <dsas> chore: I don't use any on my own machines.
[02:22] <kelmo> siretart: understood
[02:22] <imbrandon> i dont use any, nor do i use windows ( special a hacked version )
[02:23] <imbrandon> chore, but the best solution if you did would be to use a fat32 partition to transfer files
[02:23] <imbrandon> linux can read/write fat32 safely
[02:24] <imbrandon> or if you realy want to live on the edge install ( or convert an existing install via partition magic ) xp on fat32 not ntfs ;)
[02:24] <chore> Hobbsee: what if you use ext3 partitions? can explore2fs still read them?
[02:24] <Hobbsee> chore: yep
[02:25] <chore> Hobbsee: but not write, right?
[02:25] <imbrandon> chore, yea and there are also other drivers out ther for windows that will read / write ext2/3 since they are open standards ;)
[02:25] <Hobbsee> chore: yep
[02:26] <imbrandon> i used extfsmount alot in windows when i did use it
[02:26] <imbrandon> mounts ext2/3 just like another drive
[02:27] <chore> any idea why the ntfs partitions are unaccessible by unprivileged users by default in ubuntu?
[02:27] <imbrandon> chore, http://e2fsprogs.sourceforge.net/ext2.html   <-- mount ext2/3 with read/write in windows like any other drive
[02:27] <imbrandon> chore becouse of the umask set in fstab
[02:27] <Hobbsee> chore: they get mounted weirdly.  a working line in /etc/fstab looks like this:
[02:27] <Hobbsee>  /dev/hda1       /media/windows  ntfs    nls=utf8,ro,user,umask=000 0       0
[02:28] <chore> imbrandon: that's cool
[02:28] <chore> thank you
[02:28] <siretart> kelmo: what semantics would this one have? http://paste.debian.net/7879
[02:29] <chore> imbrandon: ok, then why is umask set like that in fstab? what are the reasons?
[02:29] <imbrandon> chore, no idea , its easy to change though
[02:29] <siretart> the problem I have with the init script is the right time when it is called
[02:29] <chore> imbrandon: i know it's easy. however, i am getting the impression dapper is quite unpolished
[02:30] <imbrandon> chore, no dapper is polished, windows interoperability is unpolished as with any linux becouse of non open standards ( we need to take this to #ubuntu-offtopic it isnt a universe packaging question anymore )
[02:31] <kelmo> siretart: the pasted code would fail, ifupdown cannot call ifup/ifdown, it will be locked
[02:31] <kelmo> siretart: afaik
[02:31] <kelmo> siretart: but that is not the real point of the code, its purporse is to bring down the interfaces before sendsigs kills them
[02:31] <siretart> aah, now I see the problem.. hrmpf
[02:32] <kelmo> siretart: this is not really much todo with wpa_action as it is todo with a clean "down" of an interface using wpa_supplicant in the void of process dependencies
[02:32] <siretart> hm. for me, the right solution seems to me to make ifupdown don't fail on ifdown calls
[02:34] <siretart> well, you're right. there is besides hacking ifupdown no much alternative
[02:34] <kelmo> not without massive core changes
[02:35] <siretart> well, I agree
[02:35] <siretart> let's go this way
[02:36] <lucas> any idea of when the syncs will start occuring ?
[02:36] <siretart> perhaps we can revisit this issue on netconf-devel
[02:36] <siretart> lucas: syncs have already started for a while
[02:36] <lucas> mmh, you sure of that ?
[02:36] <siretart> pretty sure
[02:36] <lucas> none of the packages I monitor have been synced
[02:37] <ajmitch> lucas: source packages will be, if unmodified in ubuntu
[02:37] <siretart> lucas: check https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+queue
[02:37] <siretart> lucas: are you sure you didn't want to ask about 'merges' rather than 'syncs'?
[02:39] <kelmo> siretart: okay, thanks for your time and thought, I did not want to commit this change without at least some discussion
[02:39] <siretart> kelmo: you're right about that
[02:39] <kelmo> siretart: i think this weekend i'll push 0.5.4 to Kyle
[02:39] <lucas> siretart: sorry, my script was wrong :-)
[02:39] <siretart> kelmo: I will forward the issue to netconf-devel
[02:40] <kelmo> siretart: i expect madduck will jump all over wpa_action ;-)
[02:40] <siretart> kelmo: I've seen there are some more pretty dbus interfaces being developed for wpasupplicant :)
[02:40] <kelmo> yes
[02:40] <kelmo> there are
[02:40] <ajmitch> lucas: inexcusable :)
[02:41] <kelmo> siretart: this sort of communication system is what makes linux systems such a nice desktop when everything is supporting the nice features
[02:42] <siretart> kelmo: it is not that widly deployed, but sure it rocks.. hard
[02:42] <siretart> oha
[02:43] <siretart> so late, need to run now.
[02:43] <siretart> cu
[03:01] <ajmitch> hub: ping
[03:02] <hub> pong
[03:02] <hub> wassup?
[03:02] <ajmitch> just wondering why you put {lib,}gphoto2 on REVU?
[03:02] <ajmitch> if it's in sid as you said
[03:03] <lucas> 1600 merges to do, in 20 days. that's 80/day, ouch !
[03:03] <hub> ajmitch: it was not at that time
[03:03] <hub> ajmitch: I archived it since
[03:03] <ajmitch> hm right
[03:03] <ajmitch> I misread the mail, sorry to bother you :)
[03:03] <hub> np
[03:04] <ajmitch> it'll have to be merged/synced anyway
[03:04] <hub> yeah
[03:05] <hub> the package work as is
[03:05] <hub> I apt-get sourced it and built
[03:05] <ajmitch> it's just whether some of the patches need to be carried forward or not
[03:06] <ajmitch> for those corner cases you don't run into
[03:26] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:26] <Hobbsee> hi bddebian
[03:27] <bddebian> Hi Hobbsee
[03:28] <Hobbsee> bddebian: why are people such morons?  why's everyone on edge today?
[03:28] <imbrandon> heya bddebian
[03:29] <bddebian> Hobbsee: Well I'm running on 3 hours sleep so..
[03:29] <bddebian> Heya imbrandon
[03:29] <Hobbsee> bddebian: not much here, except for swearing before being banned, and endless flamewars.
[03:32] <zul> flamewars where?
[03:32] <imbrandon> lol everywhere it seems today
[03:33] <imbrandon> was one in here about gpl and ubuntu this morning
[03:33] <imbrandon> ;)
[03:33] <zul> yeah saw the gpl one...that one was funny
[03:33] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, everyone's on edgy becouse of the era of edgy eft ;)
[03:34] <imbrandon> gawd that was bad
[03:34] <Hobbsee> urgh.

[03:35] <spacey> ahh i missed that
[03:40] <ajmitch> imbrandon: that was particularly bad
[03:40] <imbrandon> ajmitch yea i realized that after i hit <enter> /me gives up on the bad jokes for a while
[03:41] <imbrandon> back after bit
[03:41] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: does that mean that finally someone else will get the dunce cap, instead of me/
[03:41] <imbrandon> hahaha Hobbsee yea i think i get it for that one
[03:41] <imbrandon> ;)
[03:42] <imbrandon> .oO ( zZzZ )     night night
[03:50] <lucas> is somebody here using nstx successfully ?
[03:50] <Mithrandir> I used to
[03:50] <Mithrandir> it's total crack, though
[03:51] <lucas> I ran into several occurences of networks where nstx wouldn't work
[03:51] <bddebian> Crack?  Who has crack? :-)
[03:51] <lucas> while ozymandns (ssh over dns, simpler perl code) works
[03:51] <lucas> so I suspect problems with nstx
[03:51] <Mithrandir> the code isn't very good
[04:14] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: you're not helpful...
[04:14] <Hobbsee> heh
[05:25] <ajmitch> morning crimsun
[05:26] <zul> hey crimsun
[05:28] <Gloubiboulga> TheMuso, are you around and not busy with a BoF?
[05:28] <TheMuso> Gloubiboulga: Yes.
[05:28] <Gloubiboulga> TheMuso, lsr fails to build...
[05:28] <TheMuso> huh?
[05:28] <TheMuso> In pbuilder?
[05:29] <Gloubiboulga> yes
[05:29] <TheMuso> ok I'm checking it now.
[05:29] <Gloubiboulga> there's a buildlog on REVU
[05:29] <TheMuso> oh ok/.
[05:29] <Gloubiboulga> IMO you should depend on autotools-dev and copy config.{gues,sub} in the directory
[05:30] <TheMuso> Oh of course
[05:30] <Gloubiboulga> and the debhelper version should be >= 5.0.0
[05:30] <TheMuso> Oh ok.
[05:31] <_ion> AFAIR cdbs does that automatically, btw.
[05:31] <Hobbsee> Gloubiboulga: we've gone up a versoin?
[05:31] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: have been for quite awhile
[05:31] <Hobbsee> oh ok, i thoguht we were still at 4
[05:32] <TheMuso> How do you guys know these things re debhelper?
[05:32] <TheMuso> and standards?
[05:32] <ajmitch> we follow debian
[05:33] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: they know everything
[05:33] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Is there a particular list to be on to find out these things?
[05:33] <ajmitch> TheMuso: it's our job to know & tell people when reviewing
[05:34] <ajmitch> if you want to follow debian, then perhaps debian-devel-announce
[05:34] <TheMuso> Yeah I know, but I want to know so I don't have to re-adjust every time I upload a package for review.
[05:34] <TheMuso> Ok thanks.
[05:34] <ajmitch> mainly just keeping in touch with what other people are doing & saying
[05:34] <TheMuso> Right.
[05:34] <dnel> 6c/part
[07:20] <fbond> packages for revu: should they have "edgy" in debian/changelog?
[07:23] <Hawkwind> Yes
[07:24] <hub> yes
[07:25] <fbond> thanks
[07:25] <fbond> Currently uploading midisport-firmware...
[07:25] <fbond> This is firmware for USB midi controllers
[07:25] <fbond> the license is a bit strange, and the firmware can only be distributed with the original source package
[07:26] <fbond> So my package downloads the original source package at install time
[07:26] <fbond> and grabs the firmware from it
[07:26] <fbond> Does this all sound reasonble?
[08:13] <dothebart> hy.
[08:13] <dothebart> i've made debian build scripts for citadel.org.
[08:14] <dothebart> and it seems as /var/run/citadel gets wiped on reboot? does one need to register these?
[08:15] <fbond> I think your init scripts are supposed to create /var/run/* on boot
[08:16] <dothebart> well... citadel utilizes inittab, so there are no init scripts...
[08:18] <fbond> um? no init scripts?
[08:18] <fbond> where exactly does it get launched from?
[08:18] <_ion> fbond: inittab, as he said.
[08:18] <_ion> How unnice.
[08:19] <fbond> I was under the impression that only getty, etc. get launched there...
[08:19] <dothebart> well... it respawns automaticaly that ways.
[08:20] <fbond> can't programs like start-stop-daemon take care of that?
[08:20] <_ion> fbond: Nope.
[08:21] <fbond> heh.
[08:21] <_ion> Sorry, upstart.
[08:21] <fbond> well, wondering why a daemon dies prematurely except by bugs...
[08:22] <fbond> does it not make sense to replace the inittab stuff with an init script?
[08:22] <dothebart> you're right, that is the only reason.
[08:22] <fbond> that would help your cause ... just change it in your package, maybe?
[08:22] <dothebart> in some manner yes, as for example vserver and *bsd don't have them.
[08:23] <fbond> I guess I'm shabby on my *nix history... Didn't realize daemons got launched directly from inittab.
[08:24] <fbond> Anyway, there must be a Debian policy on this.
[08:24] <fbond> I'm quite sure you will want to switch it over to init scripts.
[08:25] <dothebart> well... running pppd from inittab fixes many problems allso.
[08:25] <fbond> hm.  no experience with this.
[08:25] <dothebart> stuff like mysql or kannel fix that issue by wrapper scripts.
[08:25] <fbond> But if it was a common thing to do, Debian would have an inittab.d directory
[08:25] <fbond> yes, that makes more sense to me
[08:25] <dothebart> yep. right.
[08:34] <cypher> can we package a higher version of a product and provide it ?
[08:34] <zul> depends on the product
[08:38] <dothebart> /var/spool/citadel will not be purged on reboot?
[08:40] <cypher> zul people are free to package and put anything on universe or multiverse right ?
[08:42] <zul> pretty much yeah..
[08:42] <zul> within limits
[08:47] <fbond> dothebart: /var/spool/* should not be purged.  /var/run/* is, because it's supposed to be related to currently running processes only.
[08:47] <fbond> IIUC
[08:48] <dothebart> yep. citadel just opens its unix domainsockets in /var/run
[08:48] <dothebart> thats pretty ok, but the dir should exist ;-)
[08:49] <bipolar> hiya all
[08:49] <bddebian> Heya bipolar
[08:49] <bipolar> So, I'm not the only one working on citadel packages?
[08:49] <dothebart> well, i did a bit.
[08:50] <dothebart> the solution should be creating an init script, at least for citadel-server.
[08:51] <dothebart> i think webcit can continue going by inittab, because of it has just ports to open.
[08:52] <bipolar> cool
[08:53] <bipolar> I think a webcit init script might be more uniform though.
[08:54] <cypher> there is debian package kplayer available for download but when i searched packages.ubuntu.com, it is not showing up
[08:54] <crimsun> what is kplayer?
[08:55] <linuxmonkey> you mean KMPlayer?
[08:55] <cypher> crimsun it is a video application based on mplayer.. seems to be very good from reading the description
[08:55] <dothebart> well.... webcit happenes to crash sometimes. i think the init tab is a good surrounder for that.
[08:56] <bipolar> ah...
[08:56] <cypher> linuxmonkey no kmplayer is different
[08:56] <dothebart> if there is an error in the c-code.
[08:56] <crimsun> cypher: no, not afaik
[08:56] <crimsun> cypher: did you ask in #kubuntu{,devel}?
[08:56] <dothebart> this does no harm in the primary way, as it is allmost stateless.
[08:57] <cypher> crimsun no i have not yet asked
[08:57] <cypher> but motu is the right channel right
[08:57] <dothebart> the user just gets a blank page in that case.
[08:58] <crimsun> cypher: if you want to package it, yes, but it makes more sense to ask if it exists in #kubuntu{,devel} first
[08:58] <dothebart> i've seen that happen half a dozent times in the last year, but users keep on retriggering errors ;-)
[08:59] <cypher> crimsun is there packages.kubuntu.com similar to packages.ubuntu.com ? ;)
[08:59] <crimsun> no.
[08:59] <crimsun> there shouldn't be, either, since all the Ubuntu derivatives share the same archive.
[08:59] <bipolar> dothebart: should I work on the debian packaging or the init script?
[09:00] <dothebart> have a look at the citadel server init scripts.
[09:20] <raphink> let's sync&merge :)
[09:20] <bddebian> w000t
[09:20] <raphink> hehe
[09:20] <raphink> in a row
[09:23] <raphink> hop
[09:23] <raphink> here's one
[09:24] <bddebian> raphink: Howd do you know that they aren't already going to be synced/merged?
[09:25] <raphink> bddebian: the current version is an ubuntu one
[09:25] <raphink> in this case, current version in edgy is 1.9.15.99+1.9.16alpha-1ubuntu1 for libchipcard2
[09:26] <raphink> this means it has to be reviewed manually
[09:26] <raphink> to check wether the ubuntu changes can be dropped or not
[09:26] <raphink> and decide wether we need a sync or a merge
[09:26] <raphink> in this case, the changes made in the ubuntu1 were done in Debian, too
[09:26] <bddebian> Aye, but won't MoM do that for you?
[09:26] <raphink> so I'm requesting a sync
[09:26] <raphink> bddebian: MoM is not started yet
[09:26] <bddebian> I know
[09:27] <imbrandon> MoM ?
[09:27] <raphink> but I don't use MoM a lot anyway
[09:27] <bddebian> imbrandon: Merge-O-Matic
[09:27] <raphink> I can analyze packages manually ;)
[09:27] <imbrandon> ah
[09:27] <raphink> it's not that hard to read changelogs and conclude
[09:27] <bddebian> raphink: Well enjoy :-)
[09:27] <raphink> I want to upgrade kmymoney
[09:27] <raphink> but that means upgrading libaqbanking
[09:27] <raphink> which means upgrading libchipcard2
[09:27] <raphink> so i'm doing all these in a row
[09:28] <bddebian> Ah
[09:28] <raphink> just built libchipcard2 in edgy
[09:28] <raphink> built fine
[09:28] <raphink> so I'm gonna try to build libaqbanking with this new package
[09:28] <raphink> :)
[09:28] <bddebian> Yeah, I had to play with that stuff and tried gnucash too in Breezy
[09:29] <raphink> let's go :)
[09:29] <raphink> hehe
[09:29] <raphink> building libaqbanking now :)
[09:55] <TheMuso> Gloubiboulga: Does the build log only apear on revu if it failed to build?
[09:56] <Gloubiboulga> TheMuso, no, but we have to manually start the build any time a new package is uploaded
[09:57] <TheMuso> Oh ok.
[09:58] <Gloubiboulga> TheMuso, I start the build for your last upload
[09:58] <TheMuso> Ok.
[10:02] <TheMuso> Hey jsgotangco. Are you in the conference room atm?
[10:03] <jsgotangco> TheMuso: yeah its open =)
[10:03] <TheMuso> how many in there atm?
[10:03] <jsgotangco> ummm 6
[10:03] <TheMuso> Ah ok.
[10:03] <Gloubiboulga> TheMuso, it's built
[10:03] <jsgotangco> nothing much to do in this place
[10:03] <jsgotangco> ahh are you upstairs?
[10:04] <TheMuso> Yep.
[10:04] <TheMuso> Gloubiboulga: Yeah I know.
[10:04] <TheMuso> Looks like it built successfully.
[10:04] <jsgotangco> internet in your room? thought it wasn't free
[10:05] <TheMuso> I asked clair about it on Sunday, and she said it was. Both tollef and I have been using it.
[10:05] <jsgotangco> ahhhh
[10:05] <jsgotangco> but the cable is pretty short...
[10:05] <TheMuso> yep.
[10:06] <TheMuso> Well there is one that sits on the desk in our room.
[10:06] <TheMuso> So we share it via wireless ad-hoc.
[10:07] <jsgotangco> hmmm actually elmo has a linksys router upstairs
[10:08] <TheMuso> I am on level 1.
[10:12] <TheMuso> Convince me to come down there and I will... :)
[10:15] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[10:29] <chillywilly> fun
[10:30] <chillywilly> a complete dapper mirror with updates, backports, and security is only 12GB or so (without sources packages)
[10:31] <crimsun> heh, some of us don't even have 1 GB free
[10:31] <crimsun> heck, I don't even have 200 MB free
[10:32] <chillywilly> 26GB
[10:32] <chillywilly> I have 556GB free
[10:32] <chillywilly> :P
[11:03] <fbond> Hi
[11:03] <fbond> I am working on a package that requires an entry in /etc/services
[11:04] <fbond> who should I speak to about this?
[11:04] <azeem> requires?
[11:04] <fbond> well
[11:04] <azeem> I thought /etc/services is rather informative
[11:05] <cypher> IANA governs it
[11:05] <fbond> In any case.
[11:05] <fbond> It would like an entry
[11:05] <azeem> I think it should get added upstream
[11:05] <fbond> IANA doesn't care about high ports, does she?
[11:05] <cypher> fbond, yes but there are higher ports registered
[11:06] <fbond> I see
[11:06] <fbond> My package would like 14541
[11:07] <fbond> is it Debian policy that lines may not exist in /etc/services that are not IANA-sanctioned?
[11:08] <cypher> not sure
[11:23] <jaldhar> fbond: I don't think so