[03:43] <hyperspace> howdy ;)
[04:02] <hyperspace> anyone alive?
[08:25] <A-Kaser> oi
[10:01] <mpathy> Hi there
[10:03] <mpathy> What would be the best way to install Ubuntu-Server on a rootserver without physical access? I could debootstrap, which leads into a very basic ubuntu, and I could change the sources.list of my minimal debian installation to ubuntu repositorys.. But what would be the best way, to end up in a installation similar to the ubuntu-server cd installation?
[10:03] <mpathy> Or are there scripts like for Suse?
[10:05] <lionelp> Hi mpathy
[10:06] <lionelp> You can debootstrap an Ubuntu (no needs to debootstrap a debian and change your source.lsit to Ubuntu)
[10:06] <lionelp> I would debootstrap and apt-get ubuntu-base and ubuntu-minimal
[10:07] <lionelp> What scripts in Suse do ?
[10:07] <mpathy> lionelp: No its because i have a minimal debian also per default so that would be more convinient
[10:08] <mpathy> lionelp: you said ubuntu-base and ubuntu-minimal - why is there no ubuntu-server which would lead into the same configuration like from cd? ;)
[10:09] <lionelp> hum... Good question :)
[10:09] <mpathy> lionelp: I heard there are scripts who do the exactly same like cd-installations its some kind of shell script startable from a remote console..?
[10:09] <mpathy> lionelp: thanks :P :)
[10:11] <lionelp> mpathy: I am not aware of such scripts, but that does not means they does not exists
[10:13] <mpathy> because like the half of people who have a server only have access to it via ssh and a emerceny console.. and providers who are affordable only offer Suse or Debian
[10:16] <lionelp> Your emergency console only provide a shell console ? It does not provide a rescue system ?
[10:16] <infinity> mpathy: There's no "ubuntu-server" package because the server CD doens't install anything more than minimal by default.
[10:16] <infinity> (Or minimal and standard?  I keep forgetting)
[10:19] <lionelp> I would say minimal and standard
[10:21] <lionelp> infinity: as you are here, I have a weird problem, and I do not know how / to who report it
[10:21] <lionelp> I use autofs-ldap on the workstations on my network
[10:21] <lionelp> and when they boot, sometimes, on rescent computers, autofs-ldap start before stations get an IP by DHCP
[10:21] <lionelp> and it does not work :-(
[10:22] <lionelp> (needs to restart autofs after boot phase)
[10:23] <infinity> Right, if it can't work until the network is settled, it should be done in /etc/network/if-up.d/ scripts instead of init scripts.
[10:24] <lionelp> That's a good idea
[10:24] <lionelp> I will open a bug on autofs so to suggest it
[10:25] <lionelp> Thanks
[10:29] <mpathy> sorry was away..
[10:30] <mpathy> lionelp: I have a shell and also a web frontend where I can choose Suse or Debian Sarge minimal for a reinstallation
[10:31] <mpathy> infinity: But there are differencies between a ubuntu-server-cd-installation and a ubuntu-cd-installation with the option to have no X11.. ?!?
[10:33] <lionelp> mpathy: the only differences are the kernel installed by default and the content of the CD
[10:36] <mpathy> lionelp: No special scripts running after installation?
[10:36] <lionelp> no special scripts
[10:37] <mpathy> lionelp: But I thought I have seen a difference between ubuntu installation done with normal ubuntu cd and with ubuntu-server cd
[10:38] <lionelp> the kernel yes (and sure, it depends on the option you selected in the menu of the alternate CD)
[10:42] <mpathy> lionelp: Okay then perhaps I will only rewrite the sources.list of my Debian Minimal. Where can I find infos about the kernel they use on Ubuntu-Server and where I find the packages it installs to have a look?
[10:47] <lionelp> packages.ubuntu.com search for ubuntu-minimal and ubuntu-standard
[10:47] <mpathy> But hey, okay, I am already lucky when I can use the up-to-date packages plus security updates for them for my server :)
[10:47] <lionelp> For the kernel, search on packages.ubuntu.com for "linux-image" and have a look on the packages that ends with -server
[10:48] <lionelp> (the full name depends on your arch)
[10:57] <mpathy> Thanks - I also read something about a bunch of metapackages for server needs - I really looking forward for them :)
[11:05] <mpathy> I also was happy to see your server guide describes the dream team postfix and dovecot :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/email-services.html :)
[11:07] <screeb> Hi, is the Ubuntu Server Team aware of this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=191858 ?
[11:09] <screeb> It seems like a fork at this time :(
[11:11] <fabbione> nothing new that hasn't been discussed yet
[11:11] <fabbione> there was a project to do something similar that died after a week
[11:11] <fabbione> nobody is willing to do the real work
[11:12] <fabbione> so people rants and complain..
[11:12] <fabbione> and there is nothing new about it either
[11:21] <screeb> where can we find about this project?
[11:21] <fabbione> server mailing list
[11:21] <fabbione> the project was callled server express or something
[11:21] <screeb> ok
[11:23] <screeb> do you think we can find motived ones about this project?
[11:24] <screeb> maybe with more people, there will be more motivation :)
[11:25] <fabbione> that's up to the people.. everybody is welcome to do stuff
[11:26] <TrioTorus> screeb, u talking about the small business server spec?
[11:27] <TrioTorus> I just read your http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1172640&posted=1#post1172640
[11:28] <TrioTorus> I'm also wondering why the sbs spec is still under UbuntuDownUnder/Bof? Wasn't that because of an event that ended long time ago?
[11:28] <TrioTorus> (on wiki I mean)
[11:28] <screeb> several specs are linked to this, but here this is the "Web based tools to manage server through web interface" spec
[11:28] <screeb> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/administer-server-via-web-interface
[11:29] <screeb> but, I agree this is very linked :)
[12:31] <screeb> is Ubuntu SBS dead?
[12:32] <TrioTorus> I hope not
[12:33] <TrioTorus> just discovered this spec, think it needs interlinking with other specs badly. https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-small-business-server
[12:34] <TrioTorus> Anybody know Mark Ramm who initiated the spec?
[12:36] <TrioTorus> not much of a community spirit going on here unfortunately :-(
[12:38] <infinity> SBS is a worthless spec without first having the software to back it up.
[12:38] <infinity> If people want to go out and write cute GUI management tools that actually WORK, I'll happily resurrect SBS and make it go.
[12:39] <infinity> But giving people an install with a bunch of daemons they don't know how to use and a GUI whose sole purpose is to fire up a terminal to manage the system is really silly.
[12:40] <TrioTorus> infinity, so what do you reccon is the first thing that should happen next?
[12:40] <screeb> So you think webmin is incomplete, or you think it has to be fully rewrite?
[12:41] <screeb> s/rewrite/rewrited
[12:42] <infinity> webmin is poorly-concieved, broken-by-design, and not even included in Ubuntu anymore.
[12:42] <screeb> ok
[12:42] <TrioTorus> infinity, what is your idea on using fds as a start
[12:42] <screeb> and do you think there is a project we can use to begin?
[12:44] <infinity> TrioTorus: Getting FDS packaged and included in the archive is a goal, but installing it by default isn't going to help any "small business" users withough simple ways to manage it.
[12:46] <screeb> yes, I think the point is to have a (web?) managment tool
[12:46] <TrioTorus> infinity, okay, but it currently doesn't have a package maintainer even. Wouldn't it be good to assign one, so a small team could see where it is now and start wrapping it.
[12:46] <screeb> then why not managing FDS from this tool, but this is not where we have to start from...
[12:47] <TrioTorus> screeb, not too sure. I think an LDAP implementation would be a good point to start from.
[12:47] <screeb> we could have a web managment tool that support both OpenLDAP and FDS
[12:48] <screeb> yes, but this should only be a feature of our managment tool
[12:49] <TrioTorus> We need to gahter a group that can start on one of the two: fds or openldap, but right now, there is no directionl
[12:51] <TrioTorus> screeb, network authentication is a pretty basic service a SBS should offer. I don't think there is any doubt that LDAP is the way for that. Since of its growing services that hook onto it, it should be the core thing.
[12:51] <TrioTorus> of a sbs
[12:52] <screeb> I think we should have a modular web inteface, then the user could chose the ones he whants to activate.
[12:54] <TrioTorus> say we want to activate DHCP, NFS, Authentication just by clicking 'enable'. Good, I agree, but doesn't it get silly if after all that he want to implement LDAP?
[12:55] <TrioTorus> s/want/wants/
[12:56] <TrioTorus> I think there should be some basic core system there, and hook all the other onto it. The very nature of LDAP.
[12:56] <screeb> the user could click 'enable LDAP' :)
[12:57] <TrioTorus> screeb, I think the discussion in the thread leans more towards an easy installable small business server. The users of that shouldn't even need to know exactly what ldap is.
[12:58] <screeb> I agree such a tool needs to support LDAP, but I think the user should be able not to use it
[12:58] <TrioTorus> by 'user' I actualy ment 'deployer'
[12:59] <screeb> well, I have to go
[12:59] <TrioTorus> oh that 's a pity
[12:59] <TrioTorus> but hey, keep on discussing
[12:59] <screeb> yes, but later ;)
[12:59] <TrioTorus> no probs
[01:00] <Zambezi> Do you know why cryptsetup-luks can't be installed on Dapperserver? "The packages is broke" or something like that was the errormessages.
[01:01] <TrioTorus> infinity, would it be possible to schedule a discussion in this forum on SBS?
[01:04] <infinity> At some point, but certainly not right now.  I'm busy in Paris now, then travelling home, then taking a week vacation at the beginning of July.
[01:05] <infinity> After all that, I'd be open to sitting down with some people on IRC and discussing SBS stuff.  it came up a bit here in Paris, and my "not worth it until people write management tools that don't suck" opinion was solidified.
[01:06] <TrioTorus> infinity, okay, I agree it is solidified, but to motivate people to achieve that, some kind of roadmap would be nice.
[01:08] <TrioTorus> as someone mentioned in the thread 'eat the elephant one bit at a time'
[01:08] <TrioTorus> s/bit/bite
[01:18] <TrioTorus> Actually the server specs (braindumps) in launchpad that are already there, are they going to be assigned to the 'edgy' release or is this going to be an 'edgy_server' release?
[02:01] <infinity> TrioTorus: We always release ubuntu and ubuntu-server simultaenously, since they share the same archive.
[02:03] <screeb> infinity: what is your point of view? Do you think LDAP should be the core system of SBS?
[02:04] <TrioTorus> infinity, thx. Actually I think that is great. It means that you would always be able to make the transtion between a desktop and a server system just by choosing packages.
[02:07] <screeb> And if LDAP is the core of SBS, should all confs be in LDAP server, or should it be possible to configure services from an other way (config files for exemple)?
[02:08] <screeb> TrioTorus: do you think all services confs have to be in ldap?
[02:12] <infinity> Oh, eww.  No.
[02:12] <TrioTorus> screeb, well, LDAP is just a way of storing data in a tree.
[02:13] <infinity> Making people's config files move to a corruptible LDAP databse is really, really dumb.
[02:13] <edneymatias> hello all there
[02:13] <infinity> Use LDAP for what it's good for: Managing individual records (like users and groups), don't try to reimplement the Windows registry in LDAP.
[02:13] <infinity> There's a reason we don't have a registry, and it's not because we don't know how.
[02:16] <screeb> I agree ;)
[02:16] <TrioTorus> well, configuring all different textfiles isn't exactly fun
[02:18] <TrioTorus> a central registry is not necessarily rejectable, if it is well done and not easily corruptable, why not?
[02:19] <TrioTorus> do stuff in ldap server --> stream that down to a system conffiles, if ldap is corrupt, protect and keep on using conffiles.
[02:21] <neuralis> TrioTorus: i have a better idea: how about you keep those filthy ldap tentacles miles away from my ages-old, tried and true, perfectly adequate conf files?
[02:22] <neuralis> if you think centrally managing conf files is a problem, and think "i know, i'll use ldap!", now you have two problems.
[02:23] <neuralis> for people who need this kind of stuff, cfengine2 et al ar the way to go. indiscriminately choosing to stick things into a database and hope really hard that everything gets easier to manage is.. well, is simply not going to happen in ubuntu server.
[02:23] <TrioTorus> neuralis, you're not giving reasons.
[02:25] <neuralis> TrioTorus: i don't have to; you're proposing a change in the way something has worked for thirty or forty years, in the name of handwavy nonsense about ease of management. the burden of proof lies solely on you to prove why this is not a terrible idea, not at all on me to prove why it is.
[02:26] <neuralis> TrioTorus: as for FDS, ajmitch plans to package it for edgy, last i heard.
[02:26] <neuralis> ajmitch: can you confirm? --^
[02:29] <TrioTorus> neuralis, you think different syntax on conffiles is actually a good thing? Isn't that what keeps people to write good admin tools?
[02:30] <neuralis> TrioTorus: no, i think living in the real world is actually a good thing. you know what the "enterprise architect" and "IT thought leader" crowds were saying when xml rolled around? that it would be the LAST word on config files. that we are soon entering configuration and interoperability nirvana.
[02:31] <TrioTorus> okay, so it hasn't happened yet. Should we not look any further?
[02:31] <neuralis> TrioTorus: this massive self-congratulatory xml circlewank aside, somehow i don't see very many xml config files these days. those that i do don't care much at all in the way of any interoperability.
[02:31] <infinity> We're not going to rewrite the configuration for every single piece of free software in the world.
[02:32] <neuralis> TrioTorus: the point is that you're proposing blue-sky solutions that would be really nice if they worked, except they can't possibly.
[02:32] <TrioTorus> infinity, of course not, once there is a good base, people who write a too will adopt the initial idea
[02:32] <infinity> And if you propose an LDAP<->conffile translator that makes sure they're always in sync, YOU JUST WROTE PARSERS FOR ALL THE CONFIG FILES, so why have them in LDAP as well?
[02:33] <neuralis> TrioTorus: different software makes (often subtly, but irreconcileably) different demands of their configuration systems; trying to unify them is a battle that you lost before you ever start fighting it.
[02:33] <infinity> TrioTorus: As an apache upstream maintainer, I can guarantee we wouldn't go and change how apache is configured just because others decided that some new whizbang thing was the standard.
[02:34] <infinity> Same goes for ISC stuff (like dhcpd and bind)
[02:34] <TrioTorus> neuralis, okay, so you're putting my feet back on the ground. Fine. But still think there is room for improvement.
[02:35] <screeb> well, I also think we can not changes erveythings like you say TrioTorus, and I think it would be a bad idea
[02:35] <neuralis> TrioTorus: by all means, improve away. but before you do, convince yourself that there's no magic bullet.
[02:35] <TrioTorus> infinity, indeed, whether to have them in ldap or just keep them as textfiles is not relevant.
[02:35] <screeb> I don't have much time today, I will try to write a paper on who I see the things
[02:36] <neuralis> TrioTorus: it is relevant; keeping conf files in ldap for no good reason is nuts.
[02:40] <TrioTorus> okay, conf files shouldn't be in ldap. They don't need to be as they are never going to be queried by other systems. I see that now.
[02:44] <TrioTorus> the 'write a new parser for every conf file' is still there, and that seems to be the situation linux is in. Forgive me for thinking about blue skies.
[02:44] <TrioTorus> but those blue skies are the direction that people new to linux/ubuntu are thinking in.
[02:50] <TrioTorus> I think Ubuntu Desktop does fullfill promises. At this point, easily setting up and managing a server is not a promise of Ubuntu. It can't be right now, but trying to promise that in the future, we could.
[03:06] <eanders> hi all,
[03:07] <eanders> does anyone know how to upgrade a server to have a basic xwindows gui?
[03:08] <lionelp> what a basic xwindows gui is ?
[03:08] <lionelp> apt-get install xubuntu-desktop to get an XUbuntu desktop
[03:09] <lionelp> same with ubuntu-desktop or kubuntu-desktop to get a more eavy desktop with Gnome or KDE
[03:52] <Detox_Elive> hey folks got a prob.....
[03:53] <Detox_Elive> set up a ubuntu server ,, can access web fine , but my router does not see it
[03:53] <Detox_Elive> would like to review settings of /etc/network/interfaces ??
[03:56] <lionelp> Detox_Elive: this is not a #ubuntu-server question, this is a #ubuntu question :)
[03:57] <Detox_Elive> ok so I ned to go to that room?
[03:58] <lionelp> yep, that's what you did :)
[03:59] <Detox_Elive> oki
[04:07] <edneymatias> how can i manage x to accept remote client connections?
[04:12] <lionelp> edneymatias: I personnaly do not know, but this is a #ubuntu question, not relative to server
[04:15] <edneymatias> ok lionelp..thank you...i will also try it there...but...better go to #xorg ;)
[04:17] <jeldert> How do I add my HP Deskjet (USB) printer to Ubuntu server? I cannot find how to do it anywhere.
[07:57] <andyakadum> anyone know how to install headless?
[08:07] <dts> What's the best approach to modify the install CD to include a couple more packages and run a few set up scripts once it's done?
[10:04] <Detox_Elive> hello folks ,,, got my apache working,, and now am beginning to build my site ,, the question I have is this.... where do I put the actual website?  in the /var/www folder or in my home/ as subfolder?
[11:01] <MystaMax> if you set it up as /var/www as the default directory then it'll be there
[11:01] <MystaMax> but you can specify where ever via the .conf file
[11:02] <MystaMax> but you should ask these questions in #ubuntu. this channel is for server development questions
[11:03] <Detox_Elive> ok thanks