[01:29] <kwwii> ok, time for bed
[01:29] <kwwii> night all
[04:32] <troy_s> woop.
[04:33] <Madpilot> hi troy_s
[04:34] <troy_s> greetings mad... not going to stay long as i am jetlagged all to heck
[04:34] <Madpilot> back from Paris?
[04:34] <troy_s> indeed.
[04:34] <Madpilot> good time?
[04:34] <troy_s> well really just a lot of work
[04:34] <troy_s> it was nice seeing some of the folks though.
[04:35] <troy_s> ok, out for shower and rest.  i'll see you soon mad.
[04:35] <Madpilot> later
[04:30] <troy_s> ping
[05:04] <troy_s> greetings seveas
[05:05] <troy_s> how strange
[05:05] <Seveas> magic ;)
[05:06] <troy_s> well thanks seveas
[05:06] <troy_s> laf
[05:06] <Seveas> np, if you need anything IRC related, just poke me
[05:06] <troy_s> thanks again den
[05:06] <troy_s> do you have that usplash
[05:06] <troy_s> appy anywhere?
[05:07] <Seveas> not yet
[05:07] <Seveas> have to fix it to work with latest usplash, will also need to backport that version of usplash to dapper
[05:07] <troy_s> ahh.
[05:07] <troy_s> your code available?  pretty sure that frank and a few others would like to peek at it.
[05:08] <troy_s> its a great tool that would work nicely in the toolset for designing a 'look' (more than just a theme)
[05:09] <Seveas> code will be available as soon as it works with the latest usplash again ;)
[05:10] <troy_s> great.
[05:10] <troy_s> i guess i should run a dual boot with the darn edgy current
[05:34] <troy_s> kenny
[05:34] <troy_s> how you doing bro?
[05:42] <kwwii> grilling chicken :p
[05:42] <kwwii> you made it home ok?
[05:42] <troy_s> barely
[05:42] <troy_s> but yes
[05:42] <troy_s> laf
[05:42] <troy_s> chicken griller
[05:42] <kwwii> :-)
[08:42] <Who_> Hi all,
[08:43] <Who_> Does anyone know what 'class' to apply a style to in a gtlrc to change the settings for applets on the panel? (I.E make the window-list fonts white, for example)
[08:49] <troy_s> greetings who
[08:50] <Who_> hiya troy
[08:50] <Who_> how was Paris?
[08:50] <troy_s> plenty of effort :)
[08:50] <Who_> cool, the fun kind?
[08:51] <troy_s> i guess in a round about way
[08:51] <Who_> Do you know when the new art-team organisation will be announced?
[09:00] <troy_s> i hope
[09:00] <troy_s> that the material will be considered 'in motion' as of now... it will probably be stamped
[09:00] <troy_s> officially
[09:00] <troy_s> by mark in the coming days.
[09:00] <troy_s> there have already been appointments to this end, and when the individuals are comfortable enough,
[09:01] <troy_s> i am quite sure they will step forwards and announce themselves.
[09:08] <Who_> does anyone know a way of finding the window class of a window?
[09:09] <troy_s> in what code style?
[09:11] <kwwii> Who_: kinda hard to say without looking at the code, some apps make their own class's as well
[09:12] <Who_> troy_s: not in code - it's for making a gtkrc
[09:12] <Who_> kwwii: So do you have any idea about the gnome window list, or do I actually need to study the code?
[09:13] <troy_s> doc it when you find it who
[09:13] <kwwii> Who_: that should be somewhat easier to find out...but I have no idea where that info would be online
[09:13] <Who_> I get the feeling someone _must_ have wanted to turn the font on the window list white but keep other button fonts black before
[09:13] <Who_> troy_s: I will If I get there!
[09:13] <kwwii> actually, I know a lot more about kde than gnome :-)
[09:14] <Who_> kwwii: I had a 'KDE moment' today and decided to to go with a more KDEesque panel setup in Gnome
[09:23] <kwwii> :p
[09:23] <kwwii> so you added 100 menu items and 15 icons?
[09:24] <kwwii> see, I can laugh at myself :-)
[09:24] <kwwii> I actually use a gnome like panel setup
[09:29] <troy_s> Eek... you had better flog yourself publically, post to the relevant newsgroups, and subject the matter for a vote.
[09:38] <kwwii> hehe, yeah...or blog about it - that is pretty much the same
[09:42] <troy_s> Greetz Neil.
[09:42] <troy_s> Niel rather.
[09:42] <cyanescent> heya
[09:42] <kwwii> hi cyanescent
[09:42] <cyanescent> what's the chat about ?
[09:43] <cyanescent> hiya kwwii
[09:43] <cyanescent> umm... why did you mention we need 4 specs troy_x ?
[09:43] <Who_> well, I'm trying to work out which class i need to apply a style to in a gtkrv so I can theme things on the panel separately (I have a dark panel BG and I want white fg - bu only on the panel)
[09:43] <cyanescent> troy_s rather
[09:43] <troy_s> The four specs are there.
[09:44] <troy_s> Basically, the system flows like this currently at the conferences.
[09:44] <cyanescent> which are...
[09:44] <kwwii> Who_: I am sure that there is a development channel or mailing list where you could find this out
[09:44] <troy_s> 1) Specs all go into the slew of braindumps... then higher powers examine those at a given point (namely the beginning of a cycle)
[09:44] <kwwii> Who_: but artists are not normally known for their coding :p
[09:45] <troy_s> 2) Those specs that are chosen, are put forwards, and development begins (if you look to the edgy such, you will see the pattern)
[09:45] <troy_s> 3) Because the art community was flailing and not using launchpad previously, there were none -- at least directly and easily findable.
[09:45] <Who_> kwwii: yea, thanks :). #gnome-art is pretty quiet.  I must confess I'm not really _that_ activbely trying to find this out right now - it's kind of a background thing while I work
[09:45] <troy_s> 4) sabdfl 'blessed' with the papal blessing four of the specs.  
[09:45] <cyanescent> ok that makes sense... what do we do with all the existing specs then ?
[09:45] <troy_s> they stay
[09:46] <cyanescent> but there is way more than 4
[09:46] <troy_s> bascially you need to have a good selection of WELL fleshed out specs (with upgrade paths, tech considerations (with the relevant folks) etc) BEFORE a cycle starts
[09:46] <troy_s> so that you walk into the cycle with plenty to scour through.
[09:46] <troy_s> that is gradually happening... so we are on course.
[09:46] <cyanescent> right right
[09:47] <cyanescent> so these specs are rather for the following dev cycle
[09:47] <cyanescent> k... which ones are the blessed 4 ?
[09:48] <troy_s> Edgy will do two things primarily... 1) Attempt to get professional quality output of those four specs.  2) Get everyone used to the scheduling breakdown.  3) Find out the quality level of existing art contributors.  4) Etc... (Basically see what we have, what we need, etc)
[09:48] <cyanescent> oh the pending approval ones
[09:48] <troy_s> Indeed... there should be four of those pending approval.  
[09:49] <cyanescent> yep, makes sense
[09:49] <cyanescent> it's not a hard target to hit with some 50 odd members though
[09:49] <troy_s> The wiki was a no brainer, so it has been set to started.
[09:49] <troy_s> cyanescent, well one would hope that...
[09:50] <cyanescent> who is doing the specs on those 4 then -- I suppose you've gone through it pretty thoroughly
[09:50] <troy_s> cyanescent, but again, judging from history and such it is questionable.  Further still, we need to figure out exactly what the 'members' are capable of.  Thus far we have only a 16 colour USplash sampling at 640x400 to judge from.
[09:50] <cyanescent> that.... as far as I gather is not going to change in the near future
[09:50] <troy_s> cyanescent, The AiCs primarily, but only in line with what sabdfl hopes to accomplish.
[09:51] <cyanescent> has the hierarchy been decided... ?
[09:51] <troy_s> Again, this process will gain much development momentum the further everyone in the K/Ubuntu community can demonstrate a clean track record, with deliverables.
[09:51] <troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  There have been two appointments that I am aware of.  The ArtCouncil still needs to be decided by the CommunityCouncil -- and that will require resumes
[09:52] <troy_s> As they will yield greater power than the rest.
[09:52] <Who_> tory_s: am I right in thinking there are no specs relating to themes among those pending ones?
[09:52] <cyanescent> Has the community council been decided ?
[09:52] <troy_s> Who_, they are all there, have a peep.  But 'themes' is pretty Gnome / KDE specific.  I suggest that people work towards homogenizing the language.
[09:53] <troy_s> cyanescent, community council exists... launchpad has everything listed there.
[09:53] <cyanescent> right.
[09:53] <troy_s> There are four members of the community council.
[09:53] <cyanescent> oh yes mark mentioned them
[09:53] <Who_> troy_s: I was looking, just ching I'd found the right ones
[09:53] <troy_s> Who_, the pending approvals are the direction for Edgy.
[09:53] <Who_> great :)
[09:54] <troy_s> Who_, better to start with baby steps and accomplish them, than massive cloghoppers and fail miserably.
[09:54] <Who_> indeed. As I've said before, we need to prove ourselves
[09:54] <troy_s> There is a very good process in place to allow for a great 'cross-pollenation' of ideas right through to execution.
[09:54] <troy_s> Who_, glad you agree.
[09:55] <cyanescent> well... I'm seeing the wiki specs being modified occassionally, 
[09:55] <troy_s> As kwwii has stated before, this sort of organization in the open source art community hasn't really been attempted before, so there is much to lay into place.
[09:55] <cyanescent> so I assume people are interested in changing the direction of things
[09:55] <cyanescent> I sometimes wonder how suse and redhat do it
[09:55] <troy_s> cyanescent, well if you mean to actually get a community together and try to build a structure, yes.
[09:56] <cyanescent> they obviously also employ outside artists to do things sometimes
[09:56] <troy_s> cyanescent, kwwii can tell you how suse does it -- he worked there as the artist for some time.
[09:56] <Who_> cyanascent: I think Suse and Refhat employ a feew people to do it
[09:56] <troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.
[09:56] <troy_s> ACH MY TEA
[09:56] <cyanescent> heh
[09:57] <Who_> doesn't jimmac do a lot of Novel and Suse's art? Linspire seems to be rather everaldo influenced
[09:58] <cyanescent> I guess also the problem has been the lack of artists working on linux.... that has changed now
[09:58] <troy_s> Who_, I recall kwwii saying that Linspire hired everaldo, but I might be mistaken.
[09:58] <cyanescent> troy_s you mentioned a write-up on doing the specs.... 
[09:58] <kwwii> yes, he works for them
[09:59] <kwwii> and he has his own studio as well
[09:59] <cyanescent> there already seems to be a template which is fairly self explanatory
[09:59] <troy_s> cyanescent, yes, we definitely need a howto to prevent further dumping.  
[09:59] <cyanescent> how much do you want me to expand on the wiki template ?
[09:59] <troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  That also means that we must outline what an effective spec looks like -- at least taking into account technology path, implementation, etc.
[10:00] <Who_> where does tigert work?
[10:00] <kwwii> nokia
[10:00] <troy_s> cyanescent, I would leave the template, but a howto would help very well.
[10:00] <cyanescent> k... will do
[10:00] <kwwii> tigert and myself left novell at the same time :-)
[10:00] <Who_> kwwii - on Maemo?
[10:00] <Who_> kwwii: were you part of Ximian?
[10:01] <kwwii> Who_: nope, I worked for SuSE for 7 years
[10:01] <kwwii> Who_: so I was working with them
[10:01] <Who_> kwwii: ahh, where do you work now?
[10:02] <cyanescent> kwwii that sounds plush... why leave ?
[10:02] <kwwii> Who_: Canonical :-)
[10:02] <cyanescent> ah... that explains it ;-)
[10:02] <troy_s> as i have stated, we have a good selection of people here with good 'linux industry' experience.
[10:02] <Who_> oh, I didn't know!
[10:02] <kwwii> definitely :-)
[10:02] <troy_s> we can do better, and we are trying.
[10:02] <kwwii> if we cannot make this work, nobody can
[10:03] <Who_> indeed, Cimi seems interested too - who seems to do a lot of themeing
[10:03] <cyanescent> did anyone get to have a chat with the Xubuntu / Kubuntu guys ?
[10:03] <troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  
[10:03] <troy_s> you are standing with one now -- kwwii
[10:03] <Who_> kwwii: do you think it is actually easier to do this kind of thing if it just left to a few full time people?
[10:03] <cyanescent> what are they saying --- they didn't seem too co-operative about our renewed vigour ;-)
[10:04] <troy_s> jani is largely responsible for xubuntu, and he was open to many thoughts.  josef mak i believe was his primary art fellow.
[10:04] <kwwii> Who_: no, I do not think that a couple of people can do this...but that is not what is happening
[10:04] <troy_s> actually, they were very accomodating... oliver is a good part of the engine behind the edubuntu movement.
[10:04] <Who_> kwwii: What happens somewhere like Suse then, many hands?
[10:04] <kwwii> the idea is to have people to coordinate things, so that we do not spend time fighting each other on the lists, etc.
[10:05] <cyanescent> cool.. but there won't be much cross-development in terms of art 
[10:05] <kwwii> SuSE does not exist anymore
[10:05] <troy_s> Cross development?  Explain?
[10:05] <kwwii> only openSuSE
[10:05] <Who_> kwwii: I was meaning "how did things work when you wroked at SUSE"  - sorry :P
[10:05] <Who_> or worked at SUSE, even
[10:06] <troy_s> As per sabdfl -- he very much wants Ubuntu (K to be determined) to feel professional and ship with exactly a finite number of 'looks'.   That means culling the bulk of the 'themes' currently in there.
[10:06] <kwwii> Who_: well, I worked along for 7 years, so I made all the decisions and all the artwork
[10:06] <cyanescent> well there was all sorts of talk on sharing backgrounds, but changing the colour... that could go with all the login / GDM stuff we're planning to do
[10:06] <kwwii> and I think it reflects in the lesser quality of the work
[10:06] <troy_s> That will take a migration path though, as it is techologically difficult to implement.  And yes, Daniel Holbach has been sort of assigned to think about this.
[10:06] <kwwii> since I made it, I can say that :-)
[10:06] <troy_s> cyanescent, Colours are off the table. 
[10:07] <troy_s> cyanescent, everything that can change is at launchpad.
[10:07] <Who_> I have only tried openSUSE
[10:07] <cyanescent> heh... but someone will need to decide on the outdoor colour palette... or is that already decided ?
[10:07] <troy_s> Outdoors is another 'look' that mark would like to see.
[10:07] <Who_> troy_s: I wrote top the list saying that I'd like to see QT apps themed with a GTK-like theme if Kubuntu was not being used - do you have an opinions on that?
[10:07] <troy_s> And that is probably going to get a spec soon.
[10:08] <kwwii> the idea here is not to limit anyone, but to take the burden of organization off the artists shoulders as well as to coordinate the work so that we get the best possible artwork with the least possible problems
[10:08] <cyanescent> ok... but since it's not one of the main specs, I suppose it won't get the most attention
[10:08] <troy_s> Who_, personally, from an aesthetic standpoint, I don't care about technology.  Just about how it feels in the end.
[10:08] <troy_s> cyanescent, it will get very good attention.  But in a formal and procedural fashion outlined by this dev cycle's process.
[10:09] <troy_s> cyanescent, hopefully by the time Edgy+1 comes, we have done enough work on the spec to get it set to a priority for that release.
[10:09] <Who_> troy_s: I agree - but I think at the moment any QT app under Gnome stands out like an amputated thumb. Is that likely to be fixed this cycle?
[10:10] <cyanescent> troy_s: make sense
[10:10] <troy_s> Who_, yes, you are correct.  Probably not this cycle.  
[10:10] <cyanescent> Who_: as far as I've read on the kubuntu ML they are saying the same about GTK apps
[10:10] <Who_> troy_s: even if someone where to contribute something that did it, and worked?
[10:11] <troy_s> The ultimate point is that sabdfl is the powerhouse behind this.  He has assembled his team that has driven Ubuntu to where it is today.  We must prove ourselves before anyone is going to look at us seriously.
[10:11] <Who_> cyanascent: are they saying that they want to make them look good this cycle? (I don't read any kubuntu lists :S)
[10:11] <troy_s> Who_, nope -- if it works, we have a people in place who can make sure it gets proper attention.
[10:11] <cyanescent> Who_: also, I don't think it's a very easy thing to do either..
[10:11] <cyanescent> Who: ;-))
[10:11] <kwwii> the thing is this: you either make kde fit to gnome or gnome fit to kde...both are not acceptable solutions for either side
[10:11] <troy_s> Who_, but what seems like a 'no brainer' for some, has deep rooted technological rammifications that aren't apparent without serious investigation.
[10:12] <troy_s> You should have seen how the "Unify Tab" sessions went ;)
[10:12] <Who_> cyanascent: the level I am thinking of doing it on at the moment is just by setting the theme in KDE when ubuntu-desktop is installed to one of the themes that looks good with Human GTK 
[10:12] <Who_> troy_s: "Unify Tab" ?
[10:12] <troy_s> Who_, and as kwwii has made clear... we need to avoid the Gnome / KDE Jihad.
[10:13] <troy_s> Who_, sabdfl wanted to unify how tabs worked across the board
[10:13] <troy_s> and it was, well... extremely complicated -- far more so than how logical the idea appeared at first glance.
[10:13] <Who_> troy_s: I totally agree - all I want to do is change what KDE apps look like _when they are not used under KDE_
[10:13] <kwwii> Who_: how would you do that with the current infrastructure?
[10:14] <cyanescent> Who_ you'd have to create separate packages... and then what _if_ you suddenly decided to use KDE
[10:14] <cyanescent> it would look like crap
[10:14] <troy_s> Who_, it starts to get ugly _very_ quick.  
[10:14] <kwwii> seperate packages cannot be made
[10:14] <troy_s> Who_, start with baby steps.  Build on the work of others.  We move forwards.
[10:14] <Who_> kwwii: I don't know enough about how to change the theme in KDE (but you might!) - but when ubuntu-desktop is installed we can install a chosen QT theme, which will be used untill Kubuntu-desktop is installed, where the Kubuntu look will take over
[10:15] <troy_s> Who_, spec it.  Build a case.
[10:15] <troy_s> Who_, it will take research.
[10:15] <kwwii> Who_: when gnome apps run in KDE, they get the KDE widget style...but changing the icons is something that is not possible now
[10:15] <cyanescent> kwwii: what is your nick short for ;-)
[10:15] <Who_> troy_s: you seemed not to think it was worth it a minute ago?
[10:15] <troy_s> Who_, I think every thought has merits, so perhaps you misread me.
[10:16] <kwwii> cyanescent: my name (but everyone thinks it is k world war II)
[10:16] <troy_s> Who_, but I was merely highlighting that it gets darn complicated darn quick.
[10:16] <kwwii> my name is Kenneth Wesley Wimer II
[10:16] <cyanescent> thought so
[10:16] <cyanescent> haha
[10:16] <troy_s> Who_, so it will require a crapload of thinking.
[10:16] <troy_s> k-ww] [
[10:16] <troy_s> laf.
[10:16] <cyanescent> the 2nd ... very pompous
[10:16] <cyanescent> well we can all crown you someday 
[10:16] <kwwii> tell my parents that
[10:17] <troy_s> anyone running gimp 239?
[10:17] <Who_> kwwii: in the simple implementation I have in mind we just ship a set of icons for KDE that blends with Gnome (say, Tango, for example) with ubuntu-desktop and replace it by the Kubuntu one when Kubuntu desktop is installed - have I misunderstood, or is that possible?
[10:17] <troy_s> Who_, do you mean Ubuntu or Gnome?  Kubuntu or KDE?
[10:17] <kwwii> Who_: no it is not possible - the packages are the same
[10:18] <cyanescent> Gimp has moved a major rev ?
[10:18] <kwwii> it would mean maintaining two sets of every kde package
[10:18] <troy_s> Not a stable, but 239 was the latest I saw.
[10:18] <troy_s> It has quite a few more features.
[10:18] <kwwii> and there is only one person doing all the kde packaging
[10:18] <cyanescent> they are a bit slow sometimes 
[10:19] <Who_> kwwii: which packes? can we not ship a 'human'kde' icon theme that is set as the icon theme in KDE with ubuntu-desktop' and then also ship 'kubuntu-icon-theme' with Kubuntu-desktop and set that as default?
[10:19] <troy_s> Who_, eek!
[10:19] <cyanescent> quite like all the vector drawing apps that are popping up
[10:19] <troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.
[10:19] <cyanescent> that wasn't there 1 year ago
[10:19] <troy_s> Who_, any gnome app running under KDE should look like Kubuntu, and vice versa.
[10:20] <troy_s> But we can't attempt to cross borders with 'look'
[10:20] <kwwii> Who_: nope, the packages themselves would need to reflect that change
[10:20] <Who_> troy_s: yea. agreed. looks like ab igger task than we can do now :(
[10:20] <kwwii> lots of apps have their own icon dirs
[10:20] <cyanescent> Who_: I don't think you can separate the icons from the actual package... it's not like a plugin
[10:20] <Who_> kwwii: separate icon dirs! ouch!
[10:20] <kwwii> so you would have to change all those icons per hand, and then there would need to be two sets of packages
[10:21] <kwwii> Who_: all desktops have apps that do it that way
[10:21] <troy_s> Who_, still worth brainstorming though -- which is why I suggest you offer up a full fledged spec.  If ultimately it cannot be done, then at least when someone pops up and says 'lets do this' we can say why not and point them to the spec thread.
[10:21] <Who_> yea, I understand now - I thought that all apps would just use icons set in the control centre
[10:21] <Who_> okay - I'll tackle a spec in the next week :)
[10:22] <cyanescent> well... it's worth looking into it for Firefox and thunderbird, which seems to be what most people use
[10:22] <Who_> and try and be clearer :)
[10:22] <troy_s> Who_, the bottom line is that ultimately it is a great idea.  Implementing isn't simple and might require further tech development.  To this end, speccing it is a clear way to get it on the table and begin the discussion.
[10:22] <kwwii> firefox and thunderbird are desktop indepent basically
[10:22] <Who_> yea, I feel sorry for the Kubuntu-team because practically everynody uses Firefox and it isn't native
[10:22] <troy_s> cyanescent, yes... 
[10:23] <kwwii> it would be easy to set a wrapper script for apps like that, to change the theme depending on which desktop is running
[10:23] <troy_s> kwwii, indy, but Frank has made steps towards getting the firefox set in line with Human look.
[10:23] <kwwii> cool
[10:23] <Who_> yea, sounds good
[10:23] <cyanescent> oh yeh... they use an idea borrowed from windows ... a browserfilemanager
[10:23] <cyanescent> ugh
[10:23] <kwwii> since those apps are not part of kubuntu anyway, it should not be a problem
[10:24] <troy_s> kwwii, the reasoning being it is a 'default' app in Ubuntu.  I think ultimately it would be good to get all 'default' apps on the same page by default install.
[10:24] <kwwii> and the tango icons will fit better with the future kde icons (oxygen) than the current ones
[10:24] <Who_> I'm off to fix the Windows PC of a housemate :S. It is seriously fscked
[10:24] <troy_s> kwwii, and same same for Kubuntu.
[10:24] <troy_s> kwwii, albeit with a different set of apps and look.
[10:24] <kwwii> troy_s: totally true...something to work towards for the future
[10:24] <troy_s> kwwii, exactly.
[10:24] <Who_> so she is considering putting Ubuntu on as she has now Windows CD. Yey :). See you all later
[10:24] <kwwii> Who_: have fun!
[10:24] <troy_s> cya who
[10:25] <cyanescent> cya Who_
[10:25] <kwwii> I feel as if the artwork team has already taken major steps toward fixing the problems it had :-) nice to see
[10:26] <cyanescent> I thought firefox was gtk gnome
[10:26] <troy_s> Yes, and the more everyone stands in unison trying to further the cause, the further we get.  Basically I think we all need to tighten up the K / Ubuntu look from where it is now before starting a massive 'kick down the walls and reno' approach.
[10:27] <troy_s> kwwii, of course, we have Human Look for Ubuntu and ??? Look for Kubuntu?
[10:27] <troy_s> kwwii, so you had better start typing :)
[10:27] <cyanescent> though... I feel a lot of work is deviating from filling the icon "holes" that we still have due to the outsourced team
[10:29] <troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.  Give it time.  Once it is demonstrated that there is a clear direction with a process in place, many will emerge from the chaos.
[10:30] <troy_s> cyanescent, for example, Daniel has a pretty interesting listing for the icons, and it is plausible that the community could help to fill those holes.  That said, there isn't a spec with relevant links yet.
[10:30] <cyanescent> You also mentioned a Design Document
[10:30] <cyanescent> who is writing that up ?
[10:31] <troy_s> cyanescent, it is almost complete.  All of the documents are at the wiki.
[10:31] <troy_s> Including a scheduling breakdown for edgy.
[10:31] <troy_s> etc.
[10:31] <cyanescent> I must be missing the action
[10:33] <troy_s> nope...
[10:33] <troy_s> most of us just got home :)
[10:33] <troy_s> i barely had time to read through the 90 art related mails and post what i know.
[10:34] <kwwii> hehe, this football match is finall getting good
[10:34] <troy_s> Relevant spec 1:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/ArtworkProcess
[10:34] <kwwii> they are fighting
[10:34] <kwwii> :-)
[10:34] <troy_s> wow... sounds like hockey
[10:34] <kwwii> yeah, that is why it is getting good :-)
[10:34] <troy_s> Relevant spec 2:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan
[10:34] <troy_s> 2 is the breakdown
[10:34] <troy_s> 1 is the process.
[10:35] <cyanescent> k thanks
[10:36] <cyanescent> yep I've read #1 b4
[10:36] <kwwii> troy_s: the problem with naming the kubuntu theme is that canonical is not paying any artist to make kubuntu specific artwork
[10:36] <kwwii> so we really only have crystal atm
[10:36] <cyanescent> did you work out a license for artist submissions ?
[10:36] <kwwii> and we will only be able to use what kde includes
[10:37] <kwwii> cyanescent: we are looking at the CCSA atm
[10:37] <kwwii> but IANAL
[10:37] <kwwii> so we need to get a proffesional to tell us what is really best
[10:37] <cyanescent> so a non stallman-endorsed one ? ;-)
[10:37] <troy_s> kwwii:  they are paying at least one that I know of.  and of course, if they are on the same page, should be able to pool some of the talent and steer it correctly.  You would need to speak with them.
[10:38] <cyanescent> it doesn't bother me at all at any rate
[10:38] <troy_s> and "Crystal" isn't really a look that is distinct for Kubuntu is it?  Is it more KDE centric?
[10:38] <kwwii> troy_s: I am the only one they are paying
[10:38] <kwwii> yepp
[10:38] <troy_s> kwwii:  ;).  It was a joke.
[10:38] <troy_s> kwwii:  But you should still speak with that person.
[10:38] <kwwii> :p
[10:39] <kwwii> I am already talking to myself all the time :-)
[10:39] <troy_s> kwwii:  And figure out if they can get a 'look' description out the door in quick time.
[10:39] <troy_s> cyanescent, the license issue is massive.  What we tried to figure out was what license works
[10:39] <kwwii> troy_s: yepp, that is the next thing on the todo list
[10:39] <troy_s> _Best_ for K/Ubuntu 
[10:39] <kwwii> can't do any real work before we have that in place
[10:39] <troy_s> in terms of rapid integration with existing licensing issues.
[10:40] <troy_s> kwwii, very good point :)
[10:40] <troy_s> kwwii, if you can get the K side up to speed with the U side, then we have a greater chance of sharing resources.
[10:40] <kwwii> defintely
[10:40] <kwwii> but for now, I am going back to the game :-)
[10:40] <troy_s> kwwii, Frank just avoided putting the K word in to avoid too much forced 'agreement'
[10:40] <troy_s> cyanescent, make sense?
[10:41] <kwwii> watching wimpy little soccer guys beat each other up is fun
[10:41] <kwwii> yeah, good point
[10:41] <cyanescent> troy_s making sensikal
[10:41] <troy_s> kwwii, "My leg my leg my leg, <yellow card> actually I'm fine"
[10:41] <troy_s> cyanescent, good.  I need to check how my words look to others from time to time to evaluate if my brain is working correctly.
[10:41] <cyanescent> hehehe... I'm actually near berlin... fussball uberall
[10:42] <troy_s> foosball
[10:42] <troy_s> woot!
[10:44] <cyanescent> I nearly got caught out by this new DRM thing -- downloaded the new Sky offer of watching all their films online, but they make you install a DRM app that sorts through your films for illegal pr0n
[10:44] <cyanescent> ugh... what a scare
[10:44] <cyanescent> not doing that again
[10:45] <cyanescent> k I need to shoot
[10:45] <cyanescent> nice chat
[11:19] <viper550> Hello
[11:19] <troy_s> heyas viper
[11:20] <troy_s>  what are you up to?
[11:20] <viper550> I think I found what should be the Edgy metacity theme
[11:20] <viper550> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=41246
[11:20] <viper550> That theme is sweet!
[11:20] <troy_s> If you check the specifications, you can see that there are only four specifications listed as targets.
[11:20] <viper550> What are they?
[11:20] <troy_s> You can easily spec up new considerations etc, and see if it gathers momentum.
[11:20] <troy_s> Familiarize yourself with launchpad.
[11:21] <troy_s> They are all listed there, and collected under the ubuntu-art team.
[11:21] <troy_s> Edgy is more about demonstration of principles, than massive change.
[11:22] <viper550> How do I get to the artwork specifications?
[11:23] <troy_s> I think et and pas have gone to great lengths to try and begin explaining this at
[11:23] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
[11:23] <troy_s> That help?
[11:24] <viper550> I don't see any drafts
[11:24] <troy_s> The link for launchpad is there I believe.
[11:24] <viper550> Never mind, 
[11:25] <troy_s> Is it?
[11:25] <troy_s> If it isn't clear, you should pass your comments on to Etienne and Pascal.
[11:26] <viper550> I'm going to rethink about consistancy and making something like the DeFacto idea
[11:26] <troy_s> Feel free to do whatever you like, but if you wish to contribute to the default Human issues, the specs are there.
[11:27] <viper550> Now...to decide which colors would go good...Beige and Blue went together nice on ClearLooks 2 (Fedora Core 5's default)
[11:27] <troy_s> Try to gather your thoughts up in a cohesive fashion and document them in a persuasive way that developers / artists / and such can quickly evaluate.  There is a spec template there, and you can reference the four edgy target specs as a guide.
[11:28] <viper550> If Frozen is one of those specs, that was mine
[11:28] <troy_s> It's not a spec
[11:28] <troy_s> It is up to the individual to build a case.
[11:28] <troy_s> And that means a heck of a lot of work.
[11:30] <viper550> Maybe I'll go something based off the DeFacto, Silver, Orange and Green
[11:30] <viper550> Wondering where I got that from?
[11:30] <troy_s> Do not expect anything to be included by default that isn't 100% up to an acceptable professional level.  There are individuals now in place to determine this and offer creative feedback if you desire.
[11:30] <viper550> I was just brainstorming!
[11:31] <troy_s> Yep.
[11:31] <troy_s> And there is a braindump specification technique for launchpad.
[11:31] <viper550> Would that look good?
[11:32] <troy_s> I don't know... personally, I would prefer to see thumbnails and such on a single page.
[11:32] <troy_s> Too hard if one needs to click several links to get a 'feel'.  That is the work of the submitter.
[11:32] <viper550> I'll work on that, I even have ideas for making consistancy between KDE and GTK!
[11:32] <viper550> And I am using gFlat here
[11:32] <troy_s> If you put some serious work in, and some serious effort towards gathering that sort of information, you will get a lot further.
[11:32] <troy_s> Don't bother 
[11:33] <troy_s> KDE is NOT equal to GNOME
[11:33] <troy_s> nor ever will be in the near future.
[11:33] <viper550> I know that
[11:33] <viper550> I was talking THEME WIZE
[11:33] <troy_s> and sabdfl has stated this (i believe niel added his quote to guildelines in the wiki)
[11:33] <troy_s> Kubuntu and Ubuntu are to remain distinctive.
[11:34] <viper550> I know
[11:34] <troy_s> So I would recommend not posting specs that differ with the established guidelines thus far.  But again, it is a free world :)
[11:34] <viper550> I was talking about when you use a KDE application on Ubuntu without KDE and it doesn't end up matching with the enviroment, concerning the end user
[11:34] <troy_s> I believe who_ is attempting to spec something to that effect.
[11:34] <troy_s> it is not an easy task.
[11:34] <troy_s> and has many many factors to consider.
[11:35] <viper550> Okay
[11:35] <kwwii> as of this time, it is impossible due to the infrastructure
[11:35] <troy_s> kwwii would be a better person to address the KDE end, but I think in principle everyone fundamentally agrees.
[11:35] <troy_s> It is massive to tackle.
[11:35] <viper550> Bye, I'm going to query the Gnome Artwork IRC for ideas
[11:35] <troy_s> adieu
[11:35] <kwwii> actually kde does pretty well with gnome apps running in kde
[11:36] <kwwii> it is more an issue of icons than anything else I guess
[11:36] <kwwii> perhaps working on the xdg spec would be better
[11:36] <kwwii> to create an infrastructure which supports it
[11:36] <troy_s> that's a good idea really...
[12:03] <kwwii> btw...if anyone wants to see a group pic from the summit check out this link:
[12:03] <kwwii> http://bootsplash.org/14_3.jpg