[12:34] <jcar> <soap opera voice> the role of highvoltage will now be played by jcar </soap opera voice>
[12:49] <morbidi> hello
[12:49] <morbidi> I am wondering, where might be the package for one develop applications with opengl ? I am missing the includes... any ideas ?
[12:51] <crimsun_> that's a #ubuntu question. Start with libgl1-mesa-dev.
[12:52] <crimsun_> (you'll probably need mesa-common-dev, too)
[12:52] <bluefoxicy> heh, I'm splitting the lwn article I'm writing in half
[12:53] <morbidi> hhmm, I asked there, and I already installed libgl1-mesa-dev
[12:54] <bluefoxicy> one is going to be a prelink security issue (local information leak), the other is going to be a general article on program start time optimizations (including some established ones like -Wl,-O1 and some new ones like direct linking, symbol hash values, and whatever dynsort is)
[12:55] <imbrandon> where is the daily live kubuntu ? http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/current/ <-- thats quite old ( may 31 ? )
[12:56] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: you're jrmoser, i assume?
[12:56] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  jrmoser from what?
[12:56] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: a contraction of your full name from ubuntu-devel
[12:57] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  yeah that'd be me
[12:57] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: heads-up: though your (long) proactive security in edgy message didn't get on-list answers, there will hopefully be interesting things happening in edgy in that respect.
[12:58] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  I'm aware.  There's going to be fortify source and stack smash protection on a few choice services I'm told
[12:59] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  I want stack smash protection on everything, eventually... more importantly I'm looking for some sort of policy allowing users to quickly check which packages have stack smash protection disabled before/after installing
[12:59] <morbidi> thanks guys
[12:59] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: ssp is getting turned on for almost everything; i'm still looking at what pie breaks (probably will enable it for as many of the ubuntu-server packages as possible), and i have yet to see about getting in chunks of PaX and grsec (ASLR to begin with, capability inheritance, etc).
[01:00] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  chunks of pax would be nice, but not exactly necessary.  I favor pax but that battle is very much uphill.
[01:00] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  it's possible to get PaX's mprotect() using a few selinux permissions {execstack,execheap,execmem,execmod}
[01:01] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: well, there's obviously a difference between getting pax chunks in ubuntu, and getting it upstream. i don't care about trying the latter; not my battle to fight
[01:01] <bluefoxicy> as for ASLR, well... I guess you COULD tweak the in-kernel values but this will occasionally break things here and there (notably oracle, whatever mail client Linus uses); getting heap randomization will be hard (this breaks a few more things, it used to break emacs)
[01:01] <bluefoxicy> I REALLY want a way to adjust randomization levels at runtime
[01:02] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  nods, but remember pax is a big, invasive patch; patching it in and then throwing Ubuntu patches on top of it means that Ubuntu's kernel team has to maintain a kernel that neither looks nor behaves like stock linux
[01:02] <neuralis> there's no way we're taking all of pax.
[01:03] <bluefoxicy> splitting it apart is even more work
[01:03] <neuralis> this is what's still in the air, and pending a discussion with spengler. pitti and i would be willing to go and break up grsec into a bunch of separate patches, if brad would want to keep maintaining things in that way.
[01:03] <bluefoxicy> but at least then the rest of the distro doesn't have to deal with it (which may not be a bad thing mind you, it'd give a chance to target bugs)
[01:04] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  that would be awesome, but you'll have to involve pipacs with that as well.  both of them are on oftc
[01:05] <neuralis> yeah, we'll see what comes of it.
[01:05] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  actually pipacs is fond of the idea of getting the PaX address space randomization infra into mainline.  This will take a bit of clean-up work (i.e. replace TASK_UNMAPPED_BASE with mm->mmap_base where we are NOT using the unrandomized base), but it's a nice looking infra
[01:06] <bluefoxicy> I managed to kill off every instance of arch_align_stack() with it :)  (pipacs leaves these in, but when pax is enabled they do nothing and pax has no equivalent function)
[01:06] <bluefoxicy> well, "fond of the idea" => I tried to get mainline to make the ASLR entropy exremely tweakable and pipacs told me to port PaX's aslr into mainline
[01:06] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: that seems to be the long-term way to go, but i'd like to see more proactive security now, and we won't get a chance to do this kind of radical, potentially-breaking-things invasion into the kernel for a long while, most probably. edgy's perfect for it.
[01:06] <bluefoxicy> yeah
[01:07] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  I specifically attempted to 1) do clean-up (non-breaking); and 2) just change the underlying infrastructure but seed it with the existing values (i.e. in the end the kernel does exactly what it already does, but in a code-cleaner way)
[01:07] <bluefoxicy> But you're right
[01:07] <neuralis> are you known in the grsec community? if so, and you want to lead that dialog with brad/pipacs/..., i'd be happy to have you talk to them.
[01:08] <bluefoxicy> target the distro first, then use that weight to pressure^Wcoerce^Wconvince mainline (I am a terribly vicious negotiator)
[01:08] <bluefoxicy> ehhh... I get along with pipacs but I'm not exactly their favorite person in the world
[01:09] <bluefoxicy> I'm currently banned from #grsecurity
[01:09] <bluefoxicy> the only reason I've been in there the past month is because I changed my identd, which broke the ban
[01:09] <bluefoxicy> #pax I'm fine in
[01:09] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: i'll do the talking, then :)
[01:09] <bluefoxicy> :)
[01:10] <bluefoxicy> I can still hang around though
[01:10] <bluefoxicy> oh, there's a gentoo dev that you might like as well
[01:10] <bluefoxicy> he hangs out in #gentoo-hardened under 'solar'... he's kind of strict, but he knows his stuff
[01:11] <bluefoxicy> He's dropped conversations with me for mentioning selinux
[01:11] <neuralis> the first point of contact for me will be brad, and then we'll see where this goes.
[01:11] <bluefoxicy> nods.  solar may or may not be on oftc at the time, he bounces in and out on there.
[01:12] <neuralis> if he's unwilling to deal with a bunch of patches, all further conversations are unnecessary, really.
[01:13] <neuralis> i.e. we're just not patching our kernels with all of grsec, period.
[01:13] <bluefoxicy> i have doubts spender will do that kind of work, perhaps if you help him do the initial split though he'll be good about it.  Also I would discuss ridding grsecurity of certain things like /proc restrictions in favor of a default policy brought up by gradm2 that implements these globally except for <root,someuid,somegid>
[01:14] <bluefoxicy> some of those things really can be done in policy, either in SELinux or GrSecurity; it's ridiculous to maintain code modifications for it.
[01:14] <bluefoxicy> (I told you I'm not their favorite person in the world :)
[01:15] <neuralis> one step at a time.
[01:16] <neuralis> are you capable and interested in helping with the split work if we receive a green light for it?
[01:17] <bluefoxicy> I'm still looking for a real job and not very reliable ;)  Somewhere around here I had split out the basics (i.e. chdir("/") on chroot()) back in 2.4 but
[01:17] <bluefoxicy> Also yeah one step at a time
[01:17] <bluefoxicy> the point of mentioning policy artifacts was that it's a reduced amount of work maintaining (unchanging) policy than it is maintaining code (in a changing codebase)
[01:18] <bluefoxicy> My interests lie partly in reducing the stress of the maintainers, for inertial purposes.
[01:18] <bluefoxicy> but I do think a little too far ahead
[01:18] <neuralis> i agree with you, but i have no intention of charging in, guns blaring with requests and suggestions. we'll go slow.
[01:19] <bluefoxicy> nods.
[01:20] <bluefoxicy> I like to load the queue for the next few steps and then make notes next to them as things become feasible/infeasible ;)
[01:20] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  aside, for humor value, have you read the POSIX definition of chroot()?
[01:22] <bluefoxicy> I was looking into it to see if it'd be feasible to get mainline to force chdir("/") on chroot(); it's not, the definition specifies that the working directory will not be changed by a call to chroot()
[01:22] <bluefoxicy> however, it also specifies that "There is no portable use that an application could make of this interface," which I found amusing.  ("we believe this function is useless")
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  pie, ssp, trying to split up grsecurity, is that it for now?
[01:23] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: i've read most of posix at one time or another
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  I should note that I was told (I have not verified the code for this) that it is technically impossible to separate most of grsecurity from the MAC system
[01:23] <bluefoxicy> i expect you don't want the MAC system
[01:24] <bluefoxicy> it's permenantly on when anything besides PaX is enabled, and you won't get that split out; practically everything uses it for logging at the very least, and I think some of the stuff in there may be implemented by hacking the ACL system
[01:24] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: ssp everywhere, pie in a few places, and splitting up grsec; we're looking at a few policy settings, and there's supposedly some ready firewall work
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> I expect it's literally less work to REWRITE grsecurity's features from scratch, which brings us back to the basic issue that most of that stuff is better done in policy.
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> firewall
[01:25] <bluefoxicy> you mean stateful filtering, and a control app besides firestarter?
[01:25] <neuralis> well, the things we would initially take are things like aslr, capability inheritance, strengthened jails, etc; i suspect most of this doesn't have far-reaching depedencies
[01:26] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: no, i mean per-package firewall policies shipping with debs
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> ah
[01:26] <bluefoxicy> http://bluefox.kicks-ass.org/stuff/bluefox/aslr-patches/  These do not work but I made a good try ;)
[01:27] <bluefoxicy> http://bluefox.kicks-ass.org/stuff/bluefox/aslr-patches/patch-2.6.17-rc6-tub-mmap_base.diff  In particular Arjan van de Ven says this patch is broken in one or two places, and it's a prerequisite for PaX's aslr to actually work (that is a clean-up patch)
[01:28] <neuralis> in any case, i have a very good idea of where i'd like proactive security to go in ubuntu, and pitti is largely on board with it. we'll get there eventually.
[01:28] <bluefoxicy> good.
[01:29] <neuralis> the bottleneck, as usual, is developer time; this is a place where you (or other capable people you know) are very welcome to help and see some really useful things come of it.
[01:30] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  when are you planning on speaking with spender?
[01:34] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: i'll send a mail today.
[01:39] <bluefoxicy> neuralis: nods.  I figured you'd pop by on oftc tomorrow or such (pipacs left for today, spender has not talked in a while)
[01:42] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: i prefer mail for this kind of communication, actually.
[01:42] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  I'll see if I can get any interest out of solar.  Last I checked he's got a LOT of stuff to do, some of the tools I use are his doing... he just pops stuff out constantly :)
[01:44] <neuralis> sure, ping him, but be *careful* in your approach. you're obviously capable of pissing people off, so tread softly; we don't want to gather any ill will for this effort before it even starts.
[01:44] <bluefoxicy> haha
[01:44] <bluefoxicy> so blunt ;)
[01:45] <bluefoxicy> I talk way too much more than anything... and spender got mad at me for asking too many questions
[01:54] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  Is there money in it?
[01:56] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: it could be bounty material. i'll see.
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  you're not getting any love from spender ;)
[02:08] <bluefoxicy> solar says he's been asked countless times to split grsec up and he always says no
[02:09] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  also bug 49192 needs attention if you in any way intend to apply a strict memory protection policy (pax mprotect() or selinux exec*) because you can't even log into gnome
[02:09] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 49192 in libgcrypt11 "libgcrypt11 has an executable stack" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/49192
[02:10] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  Comment 3, patching the .S source files, is the appropriate fix; although comment 4 will produce the exact same results in the end
[02:10] <neuralis> well, i'm still shooting him an e-mail, and if he's adamant about not breaking things up, perhaps we'll cherry-pick the invariant bits (caps, jails, etc) and leave the rest behind. or just leave it entirely.
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> nods
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> have you read the code?
[02:11] <neuralis> bluefoxicy: a long time ago. i haven't kept up at all.
[02:11] <bluefoxicy> me either
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> neuralis:  i'm not interested in hacking it at the moment, right now i'm trying to write a couple articles and see if I can get LWN to buy them off me.  One of which is going to be about a bunch of linker/libc hacks that decrease executable load time (decrease boot time, decrease how long OOo takes to start...)
[02:13] <neuralis> i'm out for now. cheers.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> alright.
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> I'll take another crack at ASLR some time soon
[02:13] <bluefoxicy> you have fun :>
[02:13] <neuralis> that's the plan.
[02:14] <bluefoxicy> (I would love to see edgy ultra-snappy and ultra-secure, that would break the "{secure,fast,easy} pick 2" axiom, which I've been saying is false for years)
[02:15] <HrdwrBoB> it is false
[02:15] <HrdwrBoB> erm, it's not false
[02:15] <HrdwrBoB> security is a relative term
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> yes
[02:15] <bluefoxicy> but there is a perception that it is absolute that each increase in security represents a decrease in performance and usability
[02:15] <HrdwrBoB> increasing security requires reducing ease of use in many cases
[02:16] <bluefoxicy> I noticed a Wired article written by a "security expert" who literally said that every time you make something more secure it gets harder to use
[02:16] <HrdwrBoB> for the most part it does
[02:18] <bluefoxicy> http://www.hackinglinuxexposed.com/articles/20020917.html
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> this one talks about ssh being harder to use than telnet
[02:19] <bluefoxicy> which is really reaching.  It's disruptive for those who already know the system, but it's not harder to use.
[02:20] <HrdwrBoB> yeah that's a bit of a stretch
[02:20] <bluefoxicy> HrdwrBoB:  stack smash protection and address space randomization will definitely not make the system "harder to use"
[02:20] <HrdwrBoB> no, certainly not
[02:20] <HrdwrBoB> it depends on what 'security' you're talking about
[02:20] <bluefoxicy> address space randomization, interestingly, was previously used in mainline as a performance tool ;)
[02:21] <bluefoxicy> HrdwrBoB:  obviously implementing strict mandatory access control and multi-level authentication, authentication time-outs, and the like get in the way significantly
[02:22] <bluefoxicy> HrdwrBoB:  but that's all authentication and access control; you'll always get in the user's way with those eventually.
[02:22] <bluefoxicy> My concern is the other side of it.
[02:22] <HrdwrBoB> yes, which shouldn't interfere with the user
[02:22] <HrdwrBoB> at least, not in any significant way
[02:22] <bluefoxicy> Broken programs let you get around the access control system, we've seen those all over the place, how many security-updates does dapper have already?
[02:23] <bluefoxicy> Increasing the integrity of the system directly by making such holes either non-exploitable or exploitable only in a non-guaranteed manner should be fully transparent to the user
[02:23] <bluefoxicy> if it's not, you're doing it wrong
[02:24] <bluefoxicy> anyway
[02:25] <bluefoxicy> "However my personal favorite is to hire some security consultant to come in and 'fix' things. They come in dictate what needs to be changed and leave. You then have a perfect scapegoat -- the Klingons have fired first, and you're just getting the engines working again"
[02:25] <bluefoxicy> this guy is brutal :)
[02:46] <msw> anyone still in paris?
[02:46] <msw> (other than me)
[05:01] <rixxon> i don't quite know where to report errors in the repos, so lets do it here. me, and many more, are having problems installing the vmware-player package
[05:03] <rixxon> here's a copy of my terminal output, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/16411p
[05:03] <Hobbsee> rixxon: see [13:02]  <ubotu> If you find a bug in Ubuntu, please report it at http://bugs.ubuntu.com
[05:03] <rixxon> Hobbsee: repos count for that? ok
[05:04] <Hobbsee> rixxon: *every* ubuntu thing counts in that, yes.
[05:04] <rixxon> heh ok, i'll see if it is already submited or otherwise try to write a report
[05:04] <Hobbsee> check if it's already reported
[05:04] <Hobbsee> yeah
[05:04] <TheMuso> Hey all
[05:05] <ajmitch> lucky you :)
[05:07] <rixxon> hm, several problems with installimg vmware-player seems to be reported
[05:07] <rixxon> but i'm not sure if this specific issue is covered
[05:07] <Hobbsee> hi ajmitch and TheMuso 
[05:08] <ajmitch> hello Hobbsee 
[05:10] <Hobbsee> rixxon: if it's not already there, which i think it isnt, then report it at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/vmware-player/+bugs
[05:11] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: But it isn't good sleep. It is sleep I agree, but doesn't beat getting into a proper bed.
[05:11] <rixxon> Hobbsee: i'll do my best, might not be totally professional but hey
[05:12] <Hobbsee> rixxon: you'll be right :)  make sure you add in that pastebin error too
[05:12] <rixxon> Hobbsee: the link or the text?
[05:12] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: that's true
[05:12] <rixxon> gee is there no "bug reporting HOW-TO" :P
[05:12] <Hobbsee> rixxon: um....you can put in the text i think - it's not that long
[05:13] <rixxon> heh
[05:14] <Hobbsee> breakfast - back later
[05:14] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: there was
[05:14] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: and where is it now?
[05:14] <ajmitch> seems that someone decided to wipe the page on the wiki 
[05:15] <Hobbsee> ah
[05:15] <ajmitch> ah nope
[05:15] <ajmitch> it just took awhile to redirect
[05:15] <ajmitch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
[05:16] <rixxon> Hobbsee: will launchpad email me on replies to my report now? (i am listed as subscriber)
[05:35] <Hobbsee> rixxon: yes
[05:37] <rixxon> cool
[06:43] <dilinger> why can't lilo just shut up?
[06:49] <Hobbsee> hi StevenK 
[07:33] <zakame> tseng: I am here :)
[07:35] <v6sa> hello
[12:14] <Norgz> hello
[12:42] <nox-Hand> Hey
[12:42] <nox-Hand> The new GUI installer; It overwrites MBR without asking, whereas the old would ask you. I think this is a mistake, as some people might have a bootloader they wish to keep and edit their own conf from their other Linux operating system :P
[12:43] <nox-Hand> I dunno, maybe I am the only one with that idea? I just really liked how the text-install nicely asked one, and I think this should be incorporated in the next version of Ubuntu?
[12:44] <ivoks> nox-Hand: that's what alternate CD is for
[12:45] <nox-Hand> ivoks, Yes, but not all Linux 'geeks' will wish to do that. I mean, there are some 'newbies' who know how to edit their bootloader, but don't think about making backups. I, for example, when I installed the new Ubuntu Dapper, lost my other bootloader, as noone told me that it did no longer ask. 
[12:45] <ivoks> nox-Hand: i agree, check if there is a bug about that and if isn't report it
[12:46] <nox-Hand> Shall do
[12:46] <ivoks> thanks
[12:46] <hunger> nox-Hand: Well, the target audience of the graphical installer would not know what a bootloader is in the first place, so I doubt that it will make sense to ask about it.
[12:47] <ivoks> hunger: well, graphicall installer has couple of more "mbr-grub" related bugs
[12:48] <hunger> ivoks: So I have read.
[12:48] <hunger> ivoks: I never used it, so I can not comment.
[12:48] <ivoks> so, hopefully this is something for edgy
[12:48] <nox-Hand> Well, with all the nice space there is on the screen, one could write something like: Ubuntu needs something called a bootloader. This is what Windows XP also uses, but the XP bootloader is simply hidden. We can also leave the bootloader out, but then you will manually need to install a bootloader.      |||    We have detected the following Operating Systems on your computer: Windows Xp, Fedora Core 6 and Arch L
[12:48] <nox-Hand> inux. If these are the only operating systems on your computer, it will be safe to install the bootloader. Continue?
[12:48] <nox-Hand> (( I don't have those O/S's, just for example ))
[12:49] <nox-Hand> Where is the Ubuntu Bugzilla anywho?
[12:49] <ivoks> nox-Hand: launchpad.net
[12:49] <nox-Hand> ivoks, cheers
[12:50] <hunger> nox-Hand: ubuntu uses launchpad which is supposed to be better than bugzilla... but has a horrible interface IMHO.
[12:50] <ivoks> nox-Hand: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[12:50] <nox-Hand> ivoks, I found it ;)
[12:54] <nox-Hand> How hard is it to do translation? I am a british citizen, but I have lived in Denmark most of my life. I am completely fluent in both languages, and I guess I could be of use with translating apps :)
[12:54] <nox-Hand> (( though I use English Ubuntu, Danish users would probably like some translating ))
[12:54] <hunger> nox-Hand: There is rosetta on launchpad.net for that.
[12:56] <nox-Hand> rosetta? Whatever it is, I shall take a look :)
[12:56] <hunger> nox-Hand: It is a proprietary web-based translation tool developed for ubuntu.
[12:58] <nox-Hand> Very cool :)
[12:59] <nox-Hand> An error occurred.
[12:59] <nox-Hand> I get that when reporting my bug o_o
[01:10] <sabdfl> nox-Hand: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+lang/da
[01:10] <nox-Hand> sabdfl, I am already in the group ;)
[01:10] <ogra> hey sabdfl 
[01:10] <jsgotangco> sabdfl!
[01:10] <sabdfl> hey guys
[01:11] <sabdfl> good stuff, nox-Hand
[01:11] <Hobbsee> hi sabdfl 
[01:11] <tseng> Hobbsee: ?
[01:11] <nox-Hand> sabdfl, Glad to be able to help :P
[01:12] <Hobbsee> tseng: they made us use real names on teamspeak, and gobby by association.
[01:12] <tseng> i see.
[01:12] <sabdfl> hmm.. that page should talk about the danish translation team, and it doesn't
[01:12] <tseng> Hobbsee: how awful
[01:12] <sabdfl> that's no good
[01:12] <Hobbsee> tseng: kinda embarassing being the only female, and speaking higher than everyone else :P
[01:12] <ogra> Hobbsee, well, abbreviating your first name whould have done it, no ? 
[01:13] <_ion> hobbsee: Use some DSP program that lowers your voice. ;-)
[01:13] <Hobbsee> ogra: to what?  there arent many names you can abbreviate sarah to, and it wouldnt have disguised the voice :P
[01:13] <Hobbsee> _ion: heh
[01:13] <ogra> (indeed still everybody would have heard youre female)
[01:13] <Hobbsee> jsgotangco: large amounts of caffeine
[01:13] <Hobbsee> ogra: yeah, darn :(
[01:13] <ogra> Hobbsee, to s. indeed :)
[01:13] <Hobbsee> ogra: hah
[01:14] <fabbione> yo yo
[01:14] <Hobbsee> hi fabbione 
[01:14] <ivoks> hi all
[01:14] <fabbione> hey Hobbsee 
[01:14] <ogra> hey fabbione 
[01:14] <fabbione> hi ogra
[01:14] <jsgotangco> hey fabbione
[01:14] <fabbione> ogra: how was Paris?
[01:15] <ogra> you were missed at the smokers OBFs :)
[01:15] <ogra> *BOFs too
[01:15] <fabbione> hi tangco :)
[01:15] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:15] <fabbione> ogra: i wouldn't have been there anyway
[01:15] <ogra> stopped ? 
[01:15] <fabbione> ogra: 5 months ago
[01:15] <ogra> wow, kudos !
[01:15] <fabbione> i also gave away patches and everything else
[01:15] <fabbione> i used to have always a box of cigarette with me.. i got rid of that too
[01:16] <ogra> Hobbsee, not for 9 per glass
[01:16] <jsgotangco> Hobbsee: there werent much, beers were so expensive
[01:16] <jsgotangco> crazy hotel
[01:16] <jsgotangco> coke is 4
[01:16] <Hobbsee> true, i thought you found somewhere else with cheeper beer
[01:16] <Hobbsee> ouch
[01:16] <fabbione> Hobbsee: usually hotels are in the middle of nowhere
[01:16] <ogra> Hobbsee, somewhere else  == 45min train ride 
[01:16] <Hobbsee> ah...
[01:16] <jsgotangco> Hobbsee: the nearest pub closes at 8
[01:16] <fabbione> Hobbsee: it makes the last party evening > *
[01:17] <ogra> (after 15 min with the shuttle bus to get to the trainstation)
[01:17] <Mithrandir> fabbione: the last party was > * :-)
[01:17] <Hobbsee> nearest pub closing at 8???  my goodness!
[01:17] <fabbione> Mithrandir: was taht thursday or friday?
[01:17] <ogra> yeah the last evening was great fun :)
[01:17] <jsgotangco> lol
[01:17] <ogra> friday
[01:17] <fabbione> Mithrandir: i heard a couple of scary stories
[01:17] <jsgotangco> hehehe
[01:17] <fabbione> ok
[01:17] <ogra> LOL
[01:17] <Mithrandir> fabbione: Friday.
[01:17] <Hobbsee> oh yes, do tell
[01:17] <Mithrandir> fabbione: quite wild, yes.
[01:17] <fabbione> last i heard was infinity_ being rescued in the hotel bathroom
[01:17] <ogra> yeah there were some incidents others would find scary *g*
[01:17] <jsgotangco> there's more
[01:18] <fabbione> but that was thursday
[01:18] <jsgotangco> hehe
[01:18] <Mithrandir> that wasn't the last party.
[01:18] <fabbione> yeha
[01:18] <ogra> fabbione, yeah, he fell in love with the bowl and couldnt stop hugging it ;)
[01:18] <jsgotangco> those are really scary stories
[01:18] <Hobbsee> do tell
[01:18] <fabbione> ogra: ahah
[01:18] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:19] <ogra> he did ... i mmet him in the morning
[01:19] <fabbione> i blame 3 weeks at UBZ for not being in Paris :P
[01:21] <Hobbsee> fabbione: well, at least you came to a nice city.  why 3 weeks?
[01:21] <fabbione> Hobbsee: becuase i attended also the Launchpad session.. and the pre-conference syndrome is going to make me father in a couple of weeks ;)
[01:22] <fabbione> and my wife needs help by now.. she can't cope all on her own
[01:22] <ogra> we should probably have the distrosprint in copenhagen ;)
[01:22] <fabbione> ogra: i so hope so
[01:23] <fabbione> but cph is expensive
[01:23] <Hobbsee> fabbione: that's true
[01:23] <fabbione> tho i admit i love to travel and stay longer in different places
[01:24] <fabbione> it was good to be there
[01:24] <ogra> fabbione, well, we could put some tents in your garden and call it ubuntu bootcamp ... that would save a lot ;) its summmer then anyway :)
[01:24] <jsgotangco> ahh it feels nice to see darkness at 7pm again
[01:24] <Hobbsee> ogra: hehe.  as long as you had some interesting power adn internet stuff
[01:24] <fabbione> ogra: oh yeah.. i would love that :)
[01:24] <ogra> i guess fabio has wireless in his house
[01:25] <fabbione> yeah 
[01:25] <fabbione> and 6Mn/768
[01:25] <fabbione> probably more than any other conference
[01:25] <ogra> and even a local archive mirror ;)
[01:25] <fabbione> exactly
[01:25] <Hobbsee> hehe - but gettign that much power?  i guess it'd be possible
[01:25] <fabbione> Hobbsee: i have power too
[01:26] <fabbione> about 8KW only for the office
[01:26] <ogra> Hobbsee, he has his own datacenter 
[01:26] <fabbione> industrial lines :)
[01:26] <Hobbsee> nah....i expected you to live without power.  :P  Wasnt sure if there would be enough power to let everyon e have access to a powerpoint
[01:26] <fabbione> Hobbsee: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/office/
[01:27] <fabbione> yeah there is enough power :)
[01:28] <Hobbsee> *eyes widen*
[01:28] <Hobbsee> got enough ports on that switch there?
[01:28] <fabbione> i have other 3 switches like that one :)
[01:28] <fabbione> just not mounted
[01:29] <fabbione> there are 2 closets full of equipment in the rest of the house
[01:29] <ogra> do you have the closet *in* your office ?
[01:29] <fabbione> ogra: one in the office
[01:30] <fabbione> the other is in the baby's room
[01:30] <ogra> heh
[01:30] <fabbione> ogra: more like airconditioning
[01:30] <ogra> that as well
[01:30] <ogra> my cabinet is horribly loud ... i didnt use it in this house ... in the new one i'll have a separate cellar for it ...
[01:31] <StevenK> Hobbsee: You should see the switch at work ...
[01:31] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:31] <nox-Hand> laters
[01:31] <Hobbsee> we only have two computer geeks in our household, so dont get the opportunity for much of this.
[01:32] <StevenK> Hobbsee: I have a 16 port Gigabit switch about 4 meters behind me.
[01:34] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Don't make me jump on you. :-P
[01:35] <Hobbsee> bleh.  think that'll happen anyway.
[01:35] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Stop seeing through my plans!
[01:37] <Hobbsee> fabbione: must say, that's a very impressive office.  and i take back what i said about having enough power.
[01:37] <Hobbsee> & internet connectoin
[01:37] <fabbione> :)
[01:38] <ogra> well, that *is* a normal office for real geeks :P
[01:38] <fabbione> Hobbsee: i am planning some changes in time.. 
[01:38] <fabbione> like using the garage for racks
[01:38] <fabbione> and keep only a couple of workstations in the house
[01:38] <Hobbsee> haha - right
[01:38] <Hobbsee> ogra: now that's kinda scary - cos that probably makes me more of a geek than dad?
[01:39] <Hobbsee> hehe
[01:39] <Hobbsee> just an extra big one.
[01:39] <StevenK> Hobbsee: You have more geek bragging rights than your father since you use Linux.
[01:39] <ogra> nah, not bigger than one of fabios
[01:39] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:44] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[01:44] <Hobbsee> hi TheMuso 
[01:45] <ogra> hey TheMuso 
[01:45] <ogra> good to hear that
[01:45] <TheMuso> Hey ogra. Was Friday night fun? I wish I was there for it. :)
[01:45] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: yay :)  (very early?)
[01:45] <ogra> yeah, a lot of fun
[01:45] <ogra> you missed a very nice dinner
[01:46] <TheMuso> Now thats enough to get annoyed about. :)
[01:46] <ogra> yeah, was very much needed after the hotel food
[01:46] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: My intension is to be in bed by 10PM.
[01:46] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: good luck!  run!
[01:46] <TheMuso> After flying in at 6:30AM this morning and a 13 hour flight.
[01:46] <highvoltage> hey ogra. recovered from paris? :)
[01:46] <TheMuso> Hey highvoltage.
[01:46] <ogra> not really yet ...
[01:46] <highvoltage> TheMuso: hey! glad to hear you're home safe :)
[01:47] <ogra> but i'm not home yet either ... sitting in the old house between tons of packed boxes ...
[01:47] <TheMuso> heh
[01:47] <Hobbsee> ogra: um, why?
[01:47] <highvoltage> ogra: ah, just caught up with scrollback, hope things get sorted out easily on that side.
[01:47] <ogra> Hobbsee, because i'm moving 
[01:47] <ogra> highvoltage, me too ... 
[01:48] <Hobbsee> ah.  didnt expect that right on the end of the conference.
[01:49] <ogra> Hobbsee, started before the conference ... but the old house is half way to the new one from paris ... so i have to be here to open the house for my landlord so he can show it to potential successors
[01:49] <jsgotangco> TheMuso: same here, i can still taste the plane food
[01:49] <Hobbsee> ogra: right.
[01:49] <jsgotangco> TheMuso: you missed some very nice memory-worthy incidents after dinner as well
[01:50] <TheMuso> hehe
[01:50] <TheMuso> The food was alright, but the dry air wasn't.
[01:50] <jsgotangco> hahaha
[01:53] <TheMuso> Anyway, must be making a move. Talk to you all later, and thanks for what was for me at least, an absolutely awesome week! Oh and if someone could fill me in on the status of Henrik, that would be much appreciated. Thanks again.
[02:04] <shawarma> TheMuso: "the status of Henrik"?
[02:04] <ogra> hey shawarma 
[02:04] <shawarma> ogra: Hola!
[02:07] <jsgotangco> shawarma: henrik wasn't feeling well the last 2 days
[02:07] <jsgotangco> that's why he wasn't anywhere on sight
[02:08] <shawarma> jsgotangco: I see. I didn't really realise it was that bad.
[02:47] <tseng> hi ogra 
[02:51] <ogra> hey tseng 
[05:04] <asac> iwj: ping
[06:07] <eitch0000> how can I create new linux-restricted-module package compiled against a new kernel?
[07:31] <uniq> are there buildd/sbuild/wanna-build packages for ubuntu, or are the debian ones beeing used? 
[09:32] <robertj> wow has freenode been massively "ownz0red
[09:35] <highvoltage> there was an announcement earlier about tests being done on the network.
[10:22] <bddebian> Heya gang
[10:22] <highvoltage> hey bddebian 
[10:22] <bddebian> Heya highvoltage
[10:23] <highvoltage> what's up?
[10:23] <bddebian> Nada, you?
[10:23] <highvoltage> trying to blog about uds paris, but i don't know where to start :)
[10:24] <bddebian> Heh
[11:33] <Didius> Hi
[11:33] <Didius> Question: I've started making a physics programm, in Java. I would like it to become open source when it's done.
[11:33] <Didius> 1) is Java a good language for open-source projects
[11:33] <Didius> 2) should I distribute it at edubuntu.org?
[11:34] <shawarma> Didius: It kind of defeats the purpose of being open source if you require a non-free java to run it, so you need to make sure it runs with a free Java. Preferably gcj.
[11:35] <Didius> ok thnx
[11:35] <shawarma> Didius: ...but as to whether or not it's a good language for open source projects, you need to define good.. "Good" can mean that there are many developers that know the language so that it'll be easier to find more devs. It can mean that it'll be easy to run in many environments. It can mean that it adds few dependencies..
[11:36] <Didius> well I want it to run in linux/windows and mac os
[11:36] <mjr> yeah, that's basically the issue you have... Recommend not using AWT or Swing for the GUI, they are generally the bigger problem in getting programs to work with free java implementations... SWT and Java-Gnome would be options.
[11:36] <mjr> well, SWT then, better portability
[11:36] <shawarma> Didius: Python is gaining a lot of momentum and is in many cases the preferred language of new stuff in Ubuntu.
[11:37] <Didius> mjr: ah that's intresting
[11:37] <shawarma> Didius: I'm not sure how computationally heavy your program is, but depending on that you might choose a lower level language for the most demanding bits.
[11:38] <shawarma> Didius: But if you're most comfortable with Java, just go for that. 
[11:38] <Didius> well actually I'm kinda new in java. But the program is fairly simple. Just ordinary radiobuttons, checkboxes etc.
[11:38] <shawarma> Didius: Better to have the software working and in good shape than trying to make everyone use technology they're not comfortable with.
[11:39] <mjr> Didius, and, of course, it would be helpful if you tested it with a free java environment such as gcj all the while during developing
[11:39] <Didius> ok, thnx
[11:40] <mjr> if you're doing mostly standard core java and the gui with swt, it shouldn't be difficult to have it working that way
[11:40] <mjr> (well, standard and "standard", but anyway)
[11:42] <Didius> if it's done i will return here to ask where I should release it (sourceforge, ...) Thnx for the info already
[11:43] <Didius> bye