[12:30] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[12:45] <antinobody> hello
[12:45] <antinobody> The Muso
[02:13] <_TomB> I have linux-kernel-headers installed, and they are not in /usr/src
[02:18] <desrt> ask in #ubuntu
[02:18] <crimsun> [you're probably looking for linux-headers-$(uname -r) anyway] 
[02:18] <desrt> tseng says "and eat a dick, *munch*"
[02:18] <_TomB> thansk
[02:18] <tseng> I definately said no such thing
[02:19] <tseng> there is sangria involved for the record
[02:19] <desrt> you are so sober now... that doesn't even count
[02:57] <bddebian> tseng: Sangria?
[03:23] <_TomB> what is the way to create a deb package after you've modified the apt-get source of it?
[03:24] <LaserJock> _TomB: dpkg-buildpackage, check out the Packaging Guide at help.ubuntu.com
[04:16] <dieman> everyone make it back home ok?
[04:18] <TheMuso> Indeed I did.
[04:18] <troy_s> most of us did i believe.
[04:26] <neuralis> lamont: ping
[05:16] <_TomB> When I rebuild casper, where do I put the casper.conf file?
[07:16] <pitti> Good morning
[07:16] <shawarma> Hi pitti!
[07:19] <pitti> hi shawarma 
[07:24] <bluefoxicy> hi pitti
[07:24] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  I am getting conflicting information here.
[07:24] <bluefoxicy> neuralis said that Edgy will have SSP everywhere and pie in a few places; tseng said SSP in a few places and pie nowhere
[07:24] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  what's going on?  :)
[07:27] <Hobbsee> hi all
[07:28] <pitti> hi bluefoxicy 
[07:28] <pitti> bluefoxicy: the former is right, see the spec
[07:29] <pitti> hi Hobbsee 
[07:29] <Hobbsee> hi pitti 
[07:29] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  nice.  Is it still killing python-egenix so postgre fails?
[07:29] <bluefoxicy> (a problem I had way back in Gentoo)
[07:30] <pitti> bluefoxicy: I only tested the packages on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GccSsp so far
[07:30] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  nod.  Are you using a hacked spec file or environment flags?
[07:30] <pitti> bluefoxicy: see discussion in the spec, we'll change gcc's default
[07:30] <bluefoxicy> err.  Environment
[07:30] <bluefoxicy> compiler flags :P
[07:30] <pitti> bluefoxicy: (i. e. gcc spec file)
[07:31] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  alright.  You know the hardened team on Gentoo tends to have one of those laying around for pie/ssp right?
[07:31] <bluefoxicy> don't know how useful that is to you
[07:31] <pitti> bluefoxicy: yes, sure
[07:31] <bluefoxicy> but maybe you can avoid some work ;)
[07:32] <bluefoxicy> theirs emits PIE binaries too though so I dunno.
[07:32] <pitti> bluefoxicy: btw, the gcc patch is already done, doko will upload it soon
[07:32] <bluefoxicy> cool.
[07:32] <pitti> bluefoxicy: I think PIE should be treated with more care
[07:32] <pitti> it'll break way more stuff
[07:32] <pitti> and as long as we don't have ASLR, it doesn't make much sense, right?
[07:33] <bluefoxicy> it'll break... eh.  I'm not sure what PIE breaks.
[07:33] <bluefoxicy> true, it doesn't do jack on the kernel's default ASLR, and we don't have PaX's code
[07:37] <shadeofgrey> hello
[07:37] <shadeofgrey> i have a question about ubuntu that is not support related and haventr thesluightest idea where to ask this question so ill try here and see what happens
[07:38] <shadeofgrey> im toying with the idea of creating a blogged based help center for new users of ubuntu and advanced users that have really high end questions they cant get answers to without help
[07:39] <shadeofgrey> and i was wondering if i hgave to pay the people who own the trademark ubuntu name to start a help websitye with ubuntu in the title
[07:40] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  do you know wtf time zone doko is in btw?
[07:40] <raphink> shadeofgrey: why not use the existing tools for that?
[07:40] <raphink> shadeofgrey: the wiki, the ticket system on LP, planet, the forums
[07:41] <pitti> bluefoxicy: CEST (+2)
[07:41] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  so me + 6 hours... it's almost 8am there.
[07:41] <shadeofgrey> raphink:  because the wiki and everything hasnt ever created a set of step by step set of instructions for handlking all of the most common installation usage problems
[07:41] <bluefoxicy> (I'm at -4 right now)
[07:41] <raphink> shadeofgrey: why don't _you_ do it ?
[07:42] <raphink> shadeofgrey: without creating another tool
[07:42] <shadeofgrey> and ive very meticulouysly been keeping a database of the problems ivcehad that i couldnt get answerrs to without hrelp from folks in the support channel
[07:42] <raphink> you could use the existing tools to create the doc you want
[07:42] <raphink> the wiki is made for what you describe
[07:42] <shadeofgrey> yeah this is true
[07:42] <raphink> multiplying the sources is the best way to get users lost
[07:42] <bluefoxicy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardenedHacking  <-- me using the wiki as a scratch pad
[07:42] <shadeofgrey> but if i create a whole other repossitory for my stuff i can organise it the way i wnt
[07:43] <bluefoxicy> raphink:  using a disorganized wiki was a pretty good way too ;)
[07:43] <raphink> shadeofgrey: if eveverybody who writes doc does that, can you imagine what a mess the ubuntu doc will be?
[07:43] <raphink> bluefoxicy: hehe
[07:43] <shadeofgrey> kind of like ubuntuguide.org only way better
[07:43] <bluefoxicy> fortunately a lot of stuff has been moved about.. but we need a table of contents
[07:43] <raphink> shadeofgrey: you could also join the ubuntu-doc team
[07:43] <raphink> so you can write doc in docbook and publish it in ubuntu
[07:43] <shadeofgrey> yeah butsee i have my own writing style that doesnt realy fit the wiki at all.
[07:43] <raphink> which is much better imo
[07:44] <shadeofgrey> and i hated being part of the doc team because there were so many prerequisites to meet before i coiuld actually start making a difference
[07:44] <raphink> http://doc.ubuntu.com/
[07:44] <shadeofgrey> and i could have a decent amount of stuff online and blog worthy in less than 24 hours
[07:44] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  you think I should rip off the http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/hardened/gnu-stack.xml and stick it in Ubuntu's wiki somewhere?  And where... :)
[07:45] <raphink> ok well 
[07:45] <raphink> you do what you want
[07:45] <raphink> I just find it too bad to do such things
[07:45] <raphink> it's like each dev creating his own repository
[07:45] <shadeofgrey> are you talking to me?
[07:45] <raphink> instead of contributing directly to the official ones
[07:45] <shadeofgrey> ah yeah you arre
[07:45] <raphink> yep shadeofgrey
[07:45] <pitti> bluefoxicy: I know that page (very useful!) but as long as it's not part of a particular spec, it does not make too much sense in the wiki
[07:46] <bluefoxicy> pitti: nod.  Nobody much cares about removing the executable stacks from stuff at this point?
[07:46] <pitti> bluefoxicy: I'd love to get rid of executable stacks in Ubuntu as well, but one step at a time :)
[07:46] <shadeofgrey> so whats the next betra release for ubuntu called?
[07:46] <pitti> bluefoxicy: i. e. as long as we do not introduce techniques like W^X, few people will care
[07:46] <bluefoxicy> pitti: I did find a few of them that can be removed easy enough
[07:46] <shadeofgrey> and are there alpha builds yet?
[07:47] <bluefoxicy> pitti: remember, gaim has an executable stack because of #49192 :)
[07:47] <raphink> what I see shadeofgrey is also that doing your things on your side with your own rights and so on is not really in the open-source spirit. If you stop keeping your doc up-to-date, who will keep it ?
[07:47] <pitti> bluefoxicy: if you know concrete packages, then bug reports are appreciated
[07:47] <pitti> bluefoxicy: (there are already some reports AFAIR)
[07:47] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  on AMD64 it even has an executable stack, and on x86 with a real NX bits
[07:47] <bluefoxicy> (yes, I submitted most if not all of those)
[07:48] <shadeofgrey> id have to stop keeping it up to date before that argumenty woukld bvecome valid
[07:48] <raphink> hmm
[07:48] <shadeofgrey> and i wouldnt start something i wasnt positive i had the motivation to keep going
[07:48] <raphink> ok 
[07:48] <shadeofgrey> i mean, granted, it would probably be alot for one person to handle.
[07:49] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  either of the solutions in the last two comments on #49192 will work; my first few bug reports were pretty much "Turn off assembly" while I figured out htf to fix them :)
[07:49] <shadeofgrey> i guess  on the whiole its a bad idea
[07:49] <bluefoxicy> I think most of those have comments that tell what to do to fix it without removing the hand-optimized assembly now
[07:49] <shadeofgrey> i just      really wnt to give back because ubuntu has dione so much forme
[07:49] <shadeofgrey> and i never felt like i goit anywhere trying to help thedocteam
[07:49] <raphink> :)
[07:50] <raphink> ok well
[07:50] <raphink> laters
[07:50] <Hobbsee> bye raphink!
[07:50] <shadeofgrey> ill depart now.  i know i dont belong here
[07:50] <bluefoxicy> shadeofgrey:  wow, that's admirable
[07:50] <bluefoxicy> shadeofgrey:  I more want to lash out at Redhat than give back to Ubuntu ;)
[07:51] <shadeofgrey> id vertainly join you in lashing out at redhat
[07:51] <shadeofgrey> they sold out the opensource community something awful
[07:51] <bluefoxicy> heh
[07:51] <bluefoxicy> they give a lot back
[07:51] <shadeofgrey> by the way since im here... does the x86 version of ubuntu run on the intel baswd mac's?
[07:52] <shadeofgrey> i couldnt get an answer to that in the regular support channel
[07:52] <Seveas> shadeofgrey, only with a nice bit of hackery
[07:52] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  fun with prelink, I'm negotiating with LWN about an article I wrote describing prelink ;)
[07:53] <bluefoxicy> pitti:  it started as an article pointing out an information leak to show why it's a BAD idea to prelink on servers where users have local access (i.e. any web hosting company, anywhere you give your users access to, sourceforge.net, etc)
[07:54] <Treenaks> didn't the prelink hype die months ago?
[07:54] <bluefoxicy> Of course, that only works if you assume 1) the machine relies on address space layout randomization as a security feature (the Linux kernel does have mmap() randomization); and 2) /proc/PID/maps is locked from local users
[07:55] <bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  hype?
[07:55] <bluefoxicy> Treenaks: prelink does a bit of nice stuff, but I haven't really noticed substantial load time reductions.  I'm actually more interested in Meeks' stuff.... (and looking at an idea I had as well)
[07:56] <Treenaks> bluefoxicy: yeah.. when every gentoo-user was prelinking all his binaries
[07:56] <bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  I'm hoping Meeks' enhancements stabilize by Edgy+1
[07:56] <bluefoxicy> Treenaks:  I never prelinked on gentoo, it didn't do anything since I had a PaX kernel ;)
[07:56] <bluefoxicy> the hardened team doesn't prelink, and I was siphoning all the information I could off them
[07:57] <bluefoxicy> later
[07:58] <bluefoxicy> I should sleep
[07:58] <bluefoxicy> I'm making too much noise in here
[07:58] <fabbione> bluefoxicy: that's why we have /ignore
[07:58] <fabbione> :)
[07:59] <Hobbsee> fabbione: shh, dont tell him :P
[07:59] <Hobbsee> dont give away our secret
[07:59] <fabbione> Hobbsee: hahaha
[07:59] <Hobbsee> :P
[08:00] <fabbione> Hobbsee: you miss the bofh point in that..
[08:00] <Hobbsee> fabbione: only sort of.
[08:00] <fabbione> confirm anawful truth using something that looks like a joke in the first place
[08:00] <fabbione> normal mind will stop at the joke
[08:01] <fabbione> somebody paying more attention would notice 
[08:02] <crimsun> hmm. When I'm using bzr push [..]  as described at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainerHowto , am I supposed to be pushing from the root of the extracted source package or a directory containing the orig.tar.gz+dsc+diff.gz+source.changes?
[08:04] <pitti> crimsun: push doesn't mind which subdir you are in, it'll always push the whole tree
[08:04] <pitti> crimsun: and the orig.tar.gz/diff/etc files should *not* be versioned
[08:05] <crimsun> pitti: ok, so the extracted source then (which I'm using). I'm trying to debug why bzr push [..]  spins and returns "0 revision(s) pushed."
[08:05] <pitti> crimsun: it always does that on initial push, cosmetic bug
[08:07] <crimsun> pitti: ok, so I shouldn't expect to see the created branch until after the next publisher run?
[08:07] <pitti> crimsun: the branch should be visible immediately
[08:09] <bluefoxicy> oh my god  that was bad.
[08:11] <Hobbsee> hi BenC 
[08:14] <bluefoxicy> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/50977  There you go
[08:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 50977 in nautilus "Nautilus-X hardlock with drag and drop over SSH" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
[08:14] <bluefoxicy> Have fun, I'm going to sleep.
[09:07] <highvoltage> hey marilize. how goes?
[09:11] <marilize> Hi highvoltage
[09:18] <tseng> bluefoxicy: and who is neuralis ?
[09:21] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  I have no idea, that's why I asked
[09:22] <tseng> bluefoxicy: i have heard of him, but i dont see why he would know better than me (or the sepc)
[09:22] <tseng> spec
[09:22] <bluefoxicy> that's why I asked pitti
[09:22] <tseng> and?
[09:22] <bluefoxicy> see backlog and the spec
[09:23] <fabbione> neuralis is part of the -server team.
[09:23] <bluefoxicy> I think he said it's going everywhere
[09:23] <fabbione> very clueful guy
[09:23] <bluefoxicy> assuming I understand what "the former" means
[09:24] <tseng> it is too early to parse that
[09:25] <tseng> and read in between you making a fuss about redhat
[09:25] <tseng> if the plan changed, fair enough
[09:35] <Pharaoh_Atem> hello, just a quick question
[09:36] <Pharaoh_Atem> when redhat tools are converted to ubuntu, does any tweaking need to be done?
[09:36] <Pharaoh_Atem> or can the rpms be converted and then just installed?
[09:36] <Pharaoh_Atem> im trying to get my soundcard to work
[09:37] <Lathiat> #ubuntu would be the best place for those questions, Pharaoh_Atem 
[09:37] <fabbione> Pharaoh_Atem: wrong channel. you want -> #ubuntu for general support
[09:37] <Pharaoh_Atem> oh..
[09:37] <Pharaoh_Atem> well, then i suggest that you guys add a soundcard configuration tool to the repositories
[09:38] <crimsun> that's planned in some fashion
[09:38] <Pharaoh_Atem> i have been working on this problem for 10 hours straight
[09:38] <crimsun> ask me in #ubuntu
[09:38] <Pharaoh_Atem> because i have no tool that can allow me to force detection of ISA
[09:53] <nchip>  :)
[09:53] <nchip> I mean hi
[09:54] <hunger> ho
[09:56] <dts> i know this might not be the right place but where can i go to debug a preseed file i wrote because it doesn't execute properly and i don't know why
[10:38] <kane_> is there a channel for OOo issues/development ?
[10:40] <Keybuk> pitti: any other syncs you have queued up?
[10:41] <pitti> Keybuk: not so far, but assume I'll have more requests in the future :)
[10:41] <pitti> Keybuk: right now I'm still doing security review and report syncs that fall off that, but I'll go over the list of packages I touched / the MoM bugs you'll file soon and ask for more
[10:41] <Keybuk> *nods*
[10:42] <slomo> Keybuk: thanks for the syncs :)
[10:42] <Keybuk> I shall tip these into incoming then
[10:44] <slomo> Keybuk: will you also work on NEW today? or could at least accept mono from binary NEW for me? ;)
[10:44] <Keybuk> there will be three of us working on NEW for the next couple of weeks
[10:44] <Keybuk> *sigh*
[10:49] <Keybuk> o/~ 1484 binaries in NEW
[10:49] <Keybuk> o/~ 1484 binaries
[10:50] <Keybuk> o/~ You take one down, accept it and then
[10:50] <Keybuk> o/~ 1568 binaries in NEW
[10:50] <Lathiat> heh
[10:50] <lucas> how many source packages ?
[10:50] <Keybuk> lucas: at least one
[10:50] <lucas> :-)
[10:53] <TheMuso> Hey all.
[10:53] <TheMuso> Does anybody happen to know how Henrik is?
[10:53] <Keybuk> he's back in the UK
[10:54] <Keybuk> and seems to be better
[10:54] <TheMuso> Keybuk: Thanks.
[10:55] <Keybuk> TheMuso: did you get home ok?  flight not too bad?
[10:56] <TheMuso> Keybuk: Yeah it wasn't too bad. Got a ultra-dry throat from the dry air on the 13 hour flight, but am mostly over that now.
[10:56] <TheMuso> And managed to sleep on the flights which was good.
[10:56] <Keybuk> that's not so bad then
[10:57] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[11:00] <TheMuso> Keybuk: Was the final dinner and night enjoyable? I am kinda annoyed that I missed that.
[11:01] <Keybuk> yeah, as much of it as I remember was enjoyable
[11:01] <TheMuso> Uh... ok. Should I take that to mean anything in particular?
[11:02] <Keybuk> very drunk
[11:02] <Keybuk> slightly regretted booking a morning flight the next day
[11:02] <TheMuso> I thought as much. :p
[11:02] <Keybuk> especially when I was having to arrange an alternate route home
[11:02] <TheMuso> Heh
[11:03] <Keybuk> still, the Eurostar was nice
[11:03] <TheMuso> I heard the food was better than what we got at the hotel.
[11:05] <Keybuk> it was
[11:29] <pitti> Keybuk: when will you start to file MoM bugs?
[11:32] <Keybuk> pitti: by the end of today I hope
[11:32] <Keybuk> just going through it all step-by-step to make sure it's working
[11:45] <iwj> asac, jmg: pong
[11:52] <Kamion> oh my god it's full of NEW
[11:52] <asac> iwj: i sent you a mail :)
[11:53] <Kamion> TheMuso: unfortunately my initial at-spi approach didn't work, at least not in the form I was hoping; now getting lots of errors of the form "/tmp/orbit-root has wrong owner" or something like that
[11:53] <Kamion> TheMuso: I'm not out of ideas yet though, so I'll keep banging on it in spare moments
[11:57] <Keybuk> Kamion: morning
[11:57] <Kamion> hiya
[11:57] <Kamion> I do so love having to spend a full two hours catching up on two weeks of IRC backlog :-/
[11:58] <Keybuk> see, this is why I just don't bother <g>
[11:59] <Kinnison> Kamion: it only took two hours?
[11:59] <Keybuk> I've done the sources and everything < OPTIONAL in NEW this morning
[11:59] <Keybuk> I suspect infinity may have done something too
[11:59] <iwj> asac: Oh, good :-).
[12:00] <crimsun> when I ``bzr push --create-prefix sftp://crimsun@bazaar.launchpad.net/[..] '', is an sftp: directory supposed to be created in my cwd?
[12:01] <Keybuk> crimsun: install paramiko
[12:01] <Keybuk> apt-get install python-paramiko
[12:02] <Kamion> Keybuk: I'm starting on a NEW rampage now
[12:02] <Kamion> Kinnison: I'd done some of it during the conference, just not this channel
[12:02] <Kinnison> Aah
[12:10] <crimsun> Keybuk: thanks
[12:11] <\sh> moins
[12:11] <jsgotangco> hello \sh
[12:12] <pitti> hi Kamion 
[12:13] <jsgotangco> hi pitti =)
[12:13] <pitti> hi jsgotangco 
[12:25] <jsgotangco> hi ogra
[12:26] <ogra> hey
[12:32] <\sh> hey ogra...
[12:32] <ogra> hey \sh 
[12:39] <sivang> hi everybody
[12:39] <sivang> boy it's good to feel sober again ;-)
[12:40] <\sh> hehe
[12:40] <Treenaks> sober? on a Monday?
[12:42] <\sh> you missed the after paris show party on Saturday/Sunday in St. Augustin, Germany ;) 
[12:43] <Treenaks> ;)
[12:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: u () { for x; do echo override $x binary universe//; done | q -f /dev/fd/0; }
[12:46] <sivang> Treenaks: It's been a while since I got drunk. The french wine and champagne together with a hotel breakfast after 3 hours sleep (mostly scrumbled eggs) added to the mayham ;-)
[12:46] <Kamion> ^-- time-saver
[12:47] <Kamion> er providing that you've also done alias q=queue
[12:52] <Keybuk> Kamion: cute
[12:53] <pitti> Kamion: what does 'for x; do foo; done' do?
[12:53] <Kamion> pitti: iterates over $@, i.e. all function args
[12:54] <pitti> oh, cute
[12:54] <pitti> Kamion: thanks
[12:54] <sivang> hey Kamion , Keybuk 
[12:55] <Keybuk> heyhey
[12:56] <Riddell> how do we request a debian sync overwriting ubuntu changes?
[12:57] <Kamion> Riddell: file bug on package, subscribe ubuntu-archive
[12:57] <Kinnison> Umm, there's a procedure isn't there
[12:58] <Kamion> it's certainly on the wiki somewhere
[12:58] <Riddell> Kamion: ok, thanks
[12:59] <pitti> Riddell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/requestsync might be useful for you
[01:00] <pitti> Riddell: (requires up to date edgy sources in apt and working local MTA; if no MTA, insert your relay host into the script
[01:02] <pitti> G0SUB: ping
[01:05] <Keybuk> Kamion: I have a more evil piece of shell
[01:05] <Keybuk> for FILE in $(<missing.txt); do PKG=${FILE%%_*}; if [ ${PKG%${PKG#???}} = "lib" ] ; then HASH=${PKG%${PKG#????}}; else HASH=${PKG%${PKG#?}}; fi; wget -q -O- http://snapshot.debian.net/archive/pool/$HASH/$PKG/source/Sources.gz | gunzip -c | sed -n -e "/^Directory:/{s/^Directory: *//;h};/^ [0-9a-f] * [0-9] * /{s/^ [0-9a-f] * [0-9] * //;G;y/\n/ /;p}" | while read SRC DIR; do if [ $SRC = $FILE ] ; then wget -q -O- http://snapshot.debian.net/archive/$DIR/$S
[01:05] <Keybuk> RC; fi; done; done
[01:05] <Keybuk> :p
[01:05] <Keybuk> "download named files from snapshot.db"
[01:06] <Keybuk> that'd work I guess :)
[01:06] <Kamion> scary monsters
[01:07] <Keybuk> I think that qualifies for the "if you ever need to use sed's 'hold space' feature, you should not be doing this in sed" though
[01:09] <Kamion> Accepting ubuntu/edgy (NEW) 4/1285
[01:09] <Kamion> getting there ...
[02:06] <zul> hey
[02:26] <G0SUB> pitti: pong!
[02:26] <sivang> Kinnison: Make sure you post the lymmricks for the sake of mankind :-)
[02:26] <pitti> hello G0SUB, how's it going?
[02:26] <G0SUB> pitti: it's going great. I have quite a lot to discuss. please come to #synaptic
[02:27] <sivang> Kinnison: (somewhere public)
[02:27] <neuralis> tseng: there are a few things up in the air here. if we can get pax's aslr into our kernel without too much hassle, the plan is to turn on pie for as many of the -server packages as possible without breaking anything.
[02:27] <pitti> hi neuralis 
[02:27] <Kinnison> sivang: due to the sensitive nature of some of them, they'll likely not be public
[02:27] <sivang> Kinnison: ah
[02:27] <sivang> Kinnison: k, then never mind.
[02:28] <pitti> Nuffing: hello Jane, how are you?
[02:28] <neuralis> pitti: hey there
[02:28] <jsgotangco> heh
[02:28] <neuralis> pitti: brad responded, but dropped you from cc for some reason
[02:28] <Nuffing> hey pitti
[02:29] <neuralis> pitti: i'll forward his reply, but it's not looking hopeful at the moment
[02:29] <pitti> neuralis: :(
[02:48] <sivang> doko: ping
[02:49] <doko> sivang: pong
[02:49] <sivang> doko: just another proposal for another field in UbuntuPackagingChanges , I think something should be in place to have a brief description of how th echange manifests, so for LPI "Makes all applications with a menu bar have extra 2 items under 'Help'"
[02:50] <sivang> doko: otherwise we have described everything, but nothing abut what  a change entails
[02:50] <sivang> (I just filled the LPI part)
[02:51] <doko> sivang: hmm, that should go into "description", at least I don't know what to put else there ...
[02:51] <sivang> doko: take it back. since we now have specs for everything like this,
[02:51] <sivang> doko: we should only have a link to the spec
[02:53] <sivang> doko: so we could add a link to the spec in description , or should that be another field ?
[02:53] <doko> sivang: well, no, the idea of the list to have a *short* description of it in one place
[02:54] <sivang> doko: okay 
[02:56] <tseng> neuralis: sounds great.
[02:58] <mvo> doko: ping
[02:59] <mvo> doko: is the profile module not included in our edgy python? or am I just blind?
[02:59] <ogra> isnt profile multiverse ? 
[02:59] <Kamion> yes
[03:01] <ogra> and it has its own source package ;)
[03:03] <sivang> hye mvo 
[03:03] <simira> hi mvo :) a lot to do with update-manager lately? It seems to work pretty randomly to me 
[03:04] <mvo> hello sivang! did you had a good trip back?
[03:04] <mvo> simira: oh, randomly in what way?
[03:04] <sivang> mvo: yes, indeed. and you ?
[03:04] <simira> mvo: before last update, the "Install update" button only reloaded the updates-list
[03:04] <Hobbsee> hi mvo and sivang 
[03:05] <simira> mvo: still does. A bit tiresome.
[03:05] <sivang> hey Hobbsee 
[03:05] <mvo> simira: on dapper? or edgy?
[03:05] <simira> mvo: on dapper. Is edgy running at all yet?
[03:06] <mvo> simira: *ick* that sounds evil. can you please run it in a terminal and /msg me the output of the terminal?
[03:09] <ogra> simira, we didnt start breaking edgy yet ... 
[03:09] <Keybuk> ogra: we SO did
[03:09] <simira> ogra: that's what I thought
[03:09] <ogra> Keybuk, pfft ... waaay more to come :)
[03:10] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/edgy_probs.html
[03:16] <sivang> Keybuk: how do you produce that list?
[03:17] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: is that *really* all the problems, or is there another more comprehensive i386 list somewhere?
[03:17] <sladen> Hobbsee: just package independancies
[03:17] <ogra> hey sladen !
[03:17] <Hobbsee> sladen: right
[03:17] <sivang> ogra, sladen : how was the driving back to germany ?
[03:18] <sladen> ogra: rocking ogra.  I brought a Belgian GoPass and went Leige->Gent, then Gent->Brussels yesterday
[03:18] <ogra> nice ... very hot ...
[03:18] <Keybuk> sivang: it's produced by a tool called "britney"
[03:18] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: those are the packages in main that are uninstallable
[03:18] <sladen> sivang: low-down and fast.
[03:18] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: right, got it
[03:18] <sivang> sladen: cool :-)
[03:18] <sivang> Keybuk: ah, on the dak suite of tools?
[03:18] <Kamion> sivang: sort of
[03:18] <Hobbsee> didnt think there were enough packages there to warrant reports of being "extremely broken"
[03:19] <sivang> Kamion: thx
[03:19] <Kamion> it's not a core part of dak, but it is part of the Debian archive maintenance systems
[03:19] <sivang> ah
[03:19] <Kamion> we use it in an extremely cut-down way
[03:20] <neuralis> Keybuk: is there any documentation about apt.conf.d actions around?
[03:21] <sivang> Kamion: I see.
[03:22] <Keybuk> neuralis: no idea, ask mvo/mdz
[03:22] <neuralis> mvo: --^
[03:28] <mvo> neuralis: there is some docu in /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configuration-index
[03:34] <neuralis> mvo: let me ask a more specific question. i'd like to add a hook that gets called for each newly installed package, and obtains a list of the newly installed conffiles. i can do that either via the new package name, or the direct contents of /var/lib/dpkg/info/<pkg>.conffiles being passed.
[03:34] <neuralis> mvo: what's the nicest way to go about it?
[03:38] <mvo> neuralis: there is DPkg::{Pre,Post}-Install-Pkgs {} that will feed you the package names, but beside that you will be on your own (i.e. you will have to figure out about the configfiles yourself)
[03:41] <neuralis> mvo: got it. is /var/lib/dpkg/info a path that's hardcodeable, or do i need to obtain it in some other way? it seems like checking for /var/lib/dpkg/info/$PKG.conffiles and taking its contents is all i need to do, no?
[03:42] <mvo> neuralis: you can find out about dpkg/info via the apt config variable "Dir::State::status". look for the code in /usr/bin/unattended-upgrades for a example
[03:43] <neuralis> mvo: cheers.
[03:43] <mvo> neuralis: yes, that should be basicly be what you need. if you need the information before the install you will have to look inside the package (via "import apt_inst" in pyhton), but I guess that is not required
[03:43] <neuralis> mvo: nope, post-install only
[03:44] <mvo> neuralis: np :) will it be python-based?
[03:44] <neuralis> mvo: indeed.
[03:45] <mvo> neuralis: nice :) 
[03:45] <neuralis> mvo: this is just for a proof of concept on versioning /etc in bzr for -server; it'd be nice to get conf files automatically added and removed from versioning on package installation
[03:46] <neuralis> my gut feeling is that we shouldn't just version all of /etc, but perhaps i'm wrong
[03:47] <fabbione> neuralis: you still want all of /etc
[03:47] <mvo> neuralis: interessting idea, is there a spec/wiki/repository that I can supscribe to to be kept upgraded?
[03:47] <fabbione> neuralis: otherwise config files generated by maintainer scripts will not be under RCS
[03:48] <neuralis> mvo: the safest bet is to subscribe to edgy-server-candy for now; etc-in-svn exists, but is being worked on by someone else
[03:48] <neuralis> fabbione: yeah, i was thinking about that
[03:49] <mvo> iwj: around?
[03:49] <Lathiat> also user created files
[03:49] <neuralis> fabbione: but there's a pile of crap under /etc that it doesn't make much sense to version
[03:49] <Kamion> IMO the answer to that is "less crap in /etc"
[03:49] <Lathiat> better safer than sorry
[03:49] <Lathiat> and that
[03:49] <fabbione> neuralis: there is a pile crap only in desktop ;)
[03:50] <fabbione> neuralis: the server doesn't have 2TB of gconf stuff
[03:50] <neuralis> fabbione: :-D
[03:50] <fabbione> :)
[03:50] <neuralis> yeah, not that bad on -server
[03:51] <neuralis> some tarballs in alternatives/, but those can be skipped
[03:53] <neuralis> looks like ssl/certs and alternatives/ can be skipped, and the rest is fine
[03:53] <neuralis> we don't have any crackheaded packages that install important conf files outside of /etc, do we?
[03:54] <fabbione> neuralis: if they do, they are not policy compliant.. = we need to fix the packages
[03:54] <neuralis> right.
[03:55] <iwj> mvo: Hi.  What can I do for you ?
[03:57] <iwj> neuralis: The status file has conffile information in it.
[03:57] <iwj> You want to get it from dpkg --status or equivalent.
[03:57] <iwj> Interestingly there isn't a dpkg rune to print the output of dpkg --status <every package>.
[03:57] <iwj> /var/lib/dpkg status isn't quite the same for various reasons.
[03:58] <iwj> Isn't there a python lib for this kind of thing ?
[03:59] <Mithrandir> for p in $(dpkg-query --showformat '${Package}\n' -W \*); do dpkg -s $p ; done, but that's quite slow an inefficient.
[04:00] <Mithrandir> it also gives you uninstalled packages
[04:03] <neuralis> Mithrandir, iwj: it looks like a blacklist approach to versioning (all of /etc except ...) makes more sense anyway, so it probably won't be needed
[04:13] <madduck> Mithrandir: dpkg --get-selections | sed -nre 's,([^[space] ] +)[[:space:] ] *install$,\1,p'
[04:14] <madduck>   | xargs dpkg -s
[04:14] <madduck> (anyway, you knew that)
[04:19] <bddebian> Heya folks
[04:22] <ompaul> fabbione, sorry to be a offtopic - got a pointer to ubuntu on sparc - I want to (A) make a factoid of same and (B) point someone on a non ubuntu mailing list to same
[04:23] <iwj> neuralis: all of etc> Yes, dpkg conffiles are only the smallest simplest part of configuration files.
[04:24] <neuralis> ompaul: what do you want to know?
[04:25] <neuralis> iwj: right.
[04:25] <iwj> Putting the whole lot in an rcs will be an interesting experiment.  It might work very well.
[04:25] <ompaul> I want to point someone on a non ubuntu list to some kind of docs - he was suggesting he had a scsi issue, and secondly if someone asks on irc I would like to point them to the same resouce (of course I am assuming one exists - not always the best policy ;))
[04:26] <ompaul> neuralis, ^^ sorry forgot to address it
[04:26] <iwj> The whole configuration arrangements are designed to cope with sysadmins editing things and you can think of the rcs as being the sysadmin's overdeveloped text editor, so you might well be lucky.
[04:26] <iwj> Make sure your rcs is one which doesn't trash ownerships.
[04:27] <neuralis> iwj: well, there's a very strong push to use bzr if we plan on shipping this
[04:28] <iwj> neuralis: I don't know what bzr's behaviour with ownerships is.  I just mentioned it as a thing to check.
[04:28] <neuralis> iwj: aye.
[04:32] <iwj> This reminds me of Kamion (I think it was Kamion) telling us about having some directory which was both a cvs working tree and an svn working tree.
[04:37] <lamont> neuralis: ack
[04:37] <Keybuk> iwj: that's not uncommon
[04:38] <Kamion> iwj: yeah, that was me
[04:39] <bddebian> Hi Keybuk, Kamion, lamont
[04:39] <lamont> morning bddebian 
[04:39] <tseng> bddebian: hi
[04:40] <bddebian> I see a lot of ubuntu1 versions coming in Edgy-changes.  Have merges started already or are people doing them manually?
[04:40] <Kamion> merges are always manual
[04:40] <tseng> er, ubuntu1 is never automated
[04:40] <Keybuk> bddebian: it looks like GNOME so far, which we package separately
[04:41] <Kamion> if you mean "without MOM", though, some people have been doing them without its aid yes
[04:41] <tseng> most of the automatic merges dont show up in edgy-changes anyway
[04:41] <Kamion> in particular if you've got bzr imports for the package then it's straightforward
[04:41] <Kamion> tseng: YM automatic syncs
[04:41] <tseng> yes.
[04:41] <tseng> I do :)
[04:41] <bddebian> Ack, folks, I know.  What I am asking is if MoM has been started yet? :-)
[04:42] <tseng> i think there is new stuff in /patches
[04:42] <tseng> but not in /ongoing-merge
[04:42] <Kamion> bddebian: Scott's been working on it pretty hard over the last week; should be soon
[04:42] <tseng> I don't use it anyway
[04:42] <bddebian> Kamion: Ah, OK, thanks
[04:42] <Kamion> but feel free to start on merges in advance if you have stuff you know about
[04:42] <Keybuk> should be today sometime
[04:43] <Keybuk> the expiry tool was a little over-enthusiastic over the weekend, so I'm sanity-checking things today :-/
[04:43] <bddebian> Kamion: Well I really can't do any main stuff unless it's on LP I suppose
[04:43] <Keybuk> when I'm happy it's not going to output "potato vs. edgy" merges, it'll be go
[04:43] <bddebian> Unless I post elsewhere I guess
[04:43] <Keybuk> bddebian: there's PLENTY of universe stuff coming
[04:43] <bddebian> Potato.. Hehe
[04:44] <bddebian> Keybuk: Trying to keep me away from main are you? ;-P
[04:46] <Keybuk> universe needs love too
[04:46] <Keybuk> in fact, universe needs a lot more than main given it diverged wildly
[04:47] <Kamion> NEW down to < 500
[04:48] <Kamion> I guess I should do something else other than archive maintenance today :-/
[04:51] <zul> heh
[04:54] <bddebian> Fine, I'll stick to my lowly Universe.. :-)
[04:55] <tseng> hah
[04:56] <tseng> or it is overcast by self-deprecation
[04:58] <Keybuk> Kamion: it's either NEW, merges or specs :)
[04:58] <bddebian> tseng: ?
[04:59] <bddebian> Hobbsee: Didn't I write a wiki for merges during Breezy?
[04:59] <Keybuk> that will need updating somewhat :-/
[04:59] <Hobbsee> bddebian: you might have, i'm not sure.  especially not at this time of night
[04:59] <Hobbsee> yeah
[05:00] <bddebian> heh
[05:00] <desrt> right.  rebels always copy the behaviour of others.
[05:00] <desrt> :)
[05:02] <Kamion> doko: can zope-cmf1.4 come back into the archive now? it was removed because it was only for zope2.7, but it seems to be for zope2.8 as well now
[05:05] <elmo> hey, can someone do a trivial seedchange and promote emacs21-nox to main?  it's in universe for no readily apparent reason (same source package as emacs21, no additional depends)
[05:07] <Kamion> elmo: sure, let me just get rid of my own backed-up seed changes
[05:07] <elmo> Kamion: gracias
[05:08] <zul> elmo: i was wondering if you have added my key to security?
[05:08] <elmo> zul: meh
[05:09] <zul> elmo: i take it as a no :)
[05:09] <antinobody> Hobbsee I think bddebian's talking about this page --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Merging
[05:09] <antinobody> tis where raphink pointed me a few days back anyway
[05:10] <Hobbsee> yeah, likely
[05:10] <Kamion> elmo: seeded, will promote after this publisher run finishes
[05:11] <elmo> zul: done - pending propagation
[05:11] <zul> elmo: thank you
[05:13] <Keybuk> Kamion: should probably seed/promote emacs-nox instead
[05:24] <Kamion> Keybuk: we should pull all of emacs-meta into main in fact, I think
[05:25] <Kamion> Keybuk: shouldn't emacs-meta have an emacs-el too?
[05:25] <Keybuk> yeah, was just thinking the same (emacs-el)
[05:25] <ogra> doko, ping
[05:26] <Kamion> Keybuk: will you do that, and I'll do s/emacs21/emacs/ on the seeds?
[05:26] <Keybuk> yup, uploading now
[05:40] <Kamion> Keybuk: FYI there are several packages in the NEW queue that were removed from dapper and snuck back in - I've been investigating and adding them to the sync blacklist if appropriate
[05:40] <Kamion> probably worth being careful if you decide to process zope* binaries
[05:40] <Keybuk> *nods* is entirely likely
[05:47] <doko> Kamion: I'll talk with Fabio (zope maintainer), I want zope2.8 be removed from the archive as well
[05:47] <doko> ogra: pong
[05:49] <ogra> doko, i have a bunch of probs with ltsp changes from debian ... they change all strings from $"string" to `eval_gettext "string"` is bash in debian supposed to know about eval_gettext ?
[05:49] <ogra> (or to know about ignoring it)
[05:51] <fabbione> ompaul: ??? i don't understand what do you need..
[05:52] <Kamion> doko: ok, shall I remove those packages again then?
[05:52] <Kamion> ogra: that smells like a function definition somewhere else, not a builtin
[05:53] <ogra> Kamion, 
 ogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/bazaar/devel$ xgettext --language=Shell -o po/ltsp.pot.test /usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client
 /usr/sbin/ltsp-build-client:107: warning: the syntax $"..." is deprecated due to security reasons; use eval_gettext instead
[05:53] <doko> Kamion: I'll try to get in contact with Fabio first, I didn't follow how stable plone with zope2.9/zope2.10 is
[05:53] <fabbione> ompaul: anyway i am offline now.. -> soccer
[05:53] <ogra> its a xgettext builtin it seems
[05:53] <ompaul> okay
[05:55] <Kamion> ogra: you need to source gettext.sh for those builtins to be available
[05:55] <Kamion> ogra: see 'info gettext'
[05:55] <ogra> gah ...
[05:55] <ogra> Kamion, TA!
[05:57] <Kamion> np
[06:28] <bddebian> do be do be dooo
[06:30] <tseng> bddebian: ?
[06:30] <bddebian> Sorry, just hating my life right now :-)
[06:31] <Keybuk> why?
[06:31] <tseng> because he lives in Philadelphia
[06:31] <tseng> the city of filth
[06:32] <bddebian> RL job sucks, don't know what to do for Edgy, blah, blah.. :_)
[06:32] <bddebian> tseng: I don't live in Philly, I WORK in Philly :-)
[06:32] <tseng> you live close enough to catch a wiff
[06:32] <LaserJock> bddebian: I've got some things for you to do for edgy ;-)
[06:32] <bddebian> tseng: ;-)
[06:33] <bddebian> LaserJock: I thought you said I don't belong here? :-)
[06:33] <LaserJock> bddebian: bah, that's only when I don't want something from you ;-)
[06:33] <bddebian> hah
[06:42] <highvoltage> tseng: if you want to see filth, go to paris :)
[06:43] <LaserJock> ouch ;-)
[06:43] <highvoltage> well, it's the dirtiest city i've ever seen. i've never seen so many cigarette butts before.
[06:45] <ogra> s/n/m/
[06:47] <mdz> zul: morninig
[06:48] <bddebian> Just zul?  What about the rest of us? ;-)
[06:48] <_ion> Well, it's evening in here. :-)
[06:49] <bddebian> And afternoon here so I guess that explains it :)
[06:55] <pitti> hi mdz
[06:59] <ogra> hmm, since whenn do we default to aks the resolution question on xserver install ? seems i have no autoprobing anymore if i build an ltsp chroot
[06:59] <pitti> ogra: we always did
[06:59] <pitti> ogra: if the resolution could not be detected automatically
[06:59] <ogra> pitti, nope
[07:00] <ogra> pitti, we used to run dccprobe or something and fell back to ask only if that failed
[07:00] <pitti> ogra: I got this question since at least hoary (before autodetection worked due to another cable)
[07:00] <pitti> ogra: right, that's what still happening
[07:00] <ogra> and it always worked reliable with the dapper packages
[07:00] <pitti> ogra: well, I didn't check edgy's installation yet, though
[07:01] <ogra> my screen flashed once and it went on building the chroot ...
[07:01] <ogra> now it doesnt flash and i get the resolution question directly
[07:05] <glatzor> ping sivang
[07:05] <fabbione> ompaul: ping?
[07:57] <ompaul> fabbione, pong
[07:57] <lool> I can't grab piti, isn't he on IRC nowadays?
[07:57] <ompaul> lool, he is on a regular enough basis
[07:57] <fabbione> ompaul: can you tell me what you need exactly? i didn't understand a word of what you wrote before (i only have 2 minutes left)
[07:58] <ogra> lool, he's off doing sports
[07:58] <lool> (ok, it's been a couple of times I /lastlog piti and whowas doesn't yeld anything)
[07:58] <ompaul> okay, I am looking for an "introduction to Ubuntu on the sparc"
[07:58] <ogra> lool, also its pitti with two t
[07:58] <ompaul> fabbione, ^^ any gotchas 
[07:58] <lool> hmm that's why :)
[07:58] <fabbione> ompaul: what kind of introduction?
[07:59] <ompaul> fabbione, something that if someone comes into #ubuntu and says "how do I do ubuntu on sparc" I can point them at
[07:59] <fabbione> ompaul: the same way as any other architecture
[07:59] <fabbione> there are also the installer docs on doc.ubuntu.com
[08:00] <fabbione> KnownIssues and TODO are on the wiki
[08:00] <ompaul> fabbione,  that would be a good point to start them from, thanks
[08:01] <fabbione> np
[08:01] <ompaul> fabbione, most people don't start there, but that is a different issue, thank you for the pointers
[08:01] <fabbione> ompaul: people that have sparcs and don't know how to install, they don't deserve that kind of metal :P
[08:02] <fabbione> anyway i am off
[08:02] <ompaul> hehe sssshhhhh don't say that too loudly
[08:02] <ompaul> enjoy your evening
[08:09] <bluefoxicy> http://rafb.net/paste/results/pwXEni73.html  Do I need to file individual bugs for each package these are in?
[08:11] <Keybuk> bluefoxicy: -ECONTEXT
[08:11] <bluefoxicy> Keybuk:  duplicate, identical files from the same package, ranging from a k and a half to a full meg
[08:12] <bluefoxicy> (I saved 232K space by symlinking identical files to eachother in gzip; and a meg by doing same with perl 5.8.2)
[08:12] <Keybuk> bluefoxicy: are you sure they're not hard links to the same file?
[08:13] <bluefoxicy> Keybuk:  wow I didn't even think about that
[08:13] <bluefoxicy> Keybuk:  apparently they are.
[08:14] <bluefoxicy> well I feel dumb now :)
[08:14] <Keybuk> ...
[08:18] <Ckenyon> ping : mjg59
[08:19] <Ckenyon> mjg59 : ping
[08:48] <duck--> hello
[08:56] <bddebian> Hello duck--
[09:01] <duck--> hiya
[09:33] <highvoltage> anyone seen heno around?
[10:34] <bluefoxicy> well.
[10:35] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  ping
[10:35] <bluefoxicy> doko: or if you're around...