Seveasguadalicious, I presume12:07
jonoKeybuk, awesome :)12:07
jonoKeybuk, had a great time, met some old and new pals and spoke about Jokosher :)12:08
jonoSeveas, it was :)12:08
Keybukjono: I was sad to miss it, but timing was not good12:08
Keybukbtw, is it lug this week?12:08
jonoKeybuk, damn you and your ways12:08
jonoKeybuk, it is, but I won't be there - I am away12:08
Keybukheh, where are you this week?12:08
jonoKeybuk, we need to hook up for a pint sometime soon12:08
Keybukaye, we should12:08
jonoKeybuk, visiting friends12:08
jonoKeybuk, its their anniversary12:08
jonoso wha you guys up to ?12:09
Keybukmerges :-(12:09
SeveasKeybuks mom is giving everybody work12:10
Keybuk"new mom"12:10
Seveasyeah, the old mom was even worse :12:11
KeybukKamion: just reviewing seed-cleanup ... got a few secs?12:11
KamionKeybuk: sure12:14
KeybukKamion: the scope mentions the review of the actual seeds; it would have been nice for the rationales of the changes to be included in the spec12:14
KamionKeybuk: (I've nearly finished the implementation, so I guess now is a good time ;-))12:14
Keybukbut I guess that's all long forgotten now12:14
Keybukso maybe just drop mention of that review from the spec and make it a germinate spec12:15
Keybukalso (and in particular for the implementation)12:15
KamionKeybuk: I'll note explicitly that it was carried out at the conference12:15
Keybukgerminate already supports regexes for the language packs and friends12:15
Keybukso having both regexes and globs for different functionality seems ... bogus12:15
Kamiongood point12:15
Keybukcould this use regexes, OR the existing stuff use globs?12:15
KamionI'll make that regexes12:15
Kamiondon't really want to break the existing stuff12:16
Kamionin retrospect globs would probably have been sufficient for the language pack stuff, but it's too late now12:16
Keybukif both called out to a common function that could be changed to globs later, that would be nice12:16
Keybukotherwise no other comments there, so if you could fix those bits, it's fine for approval12:17
jduboh man, i'm getting that perl locale spew again12:17
sivangI'd like to sign off for the night, will it be okay to sort left over spec approval fixes tomorrow UTC time ?12:18
KamionKeybuk: my current implementation needs 10 exclude patterns to produce IMO sane results following including *-{dbg,dev,doc}12:19
Kamionwhich is pretty much as good as I'd hoped for12:19
Keybukcan you mention those in the spec? :p12:20
Kamionsure, why not12:20
Keybuksivang: I don't understand the question12:20
sivangKeybuk: Well, if on the next review round there will be more stuff to fix, I wouldn't be able to do them until tomorrow morning UTC time, and since the 4th is the spec approval dead line, I'd like to kow if it's okay that I sort these past the dead line and get my specs approved.12:21
Keybukthere's a spec approval deadline?12:22
Kamionyes, but it's the 6th, not the 4th12:23
Keybuk6th sounds more sane12:23
sivanghrm 12:23
Keybuk4th is not a Thursday :)12:23
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sivangFor some reason I made it in my head to be the 4th of July , which incidently, is US independence day ...interesting mis-association.12:24
sivangKamion: thanks for the reminder12:24
KamionKeybuk: actually, how about I cheat, kind of12:25
KamionKeybuk: regexes in seeds are always surrounded by //12:25
KamionKeybuk: so I just extend that to say you can provide globs if you don't surround by //, and you can use either globs or regexes in either context12:25
Keybuksounds fine to me :)12:25
Kamionthen I get the prettier syntax *and* consistency *and* don't break backward-compat12:25
sivangnight Kamion , Keybuk , laters12:25
Kamionnight sivang12:26
Keybuksivang: g'night12:26
LaserJocksivang: I thought the same thing, don't feel bad ;-)12:26
KamionKeybuk: spec adjusted12:29
Kamionoh I'll just dump the current exclusions in12:30
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jdub$ locale12:30
jdublocale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory12:30
KeybukKamion: ok, approved12:32
Keybukgiven I suspect strongly it'll move straight to Implemented <g>12:32
jonohey jdub 12:32
Keybukam about 1/3 though u6y partioner12:33
KamionI'm not going to do the germinate regex changes tonight, but I'll attack that tomorrow12:33
jdubKeybuk: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jdub/2006/locale-strace.txt12:34
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Keybukjdub: odd12:39
Keybukjdub: dpkg-reconfigure locales12:39
jdubKeybuk: hrm, it's "... done" for all of them (not skipping)12:41
jdub$ locale12:41
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Keybukwhat's your LC_COLLATE ?12:42
Keybukweird *shrug*12:43
jdubeverything's en_AU.UTF-8 apart from LANGUAGE12:43
jdubbut it's all ok now12:43
Keybukwrong ABI I guess12:43
Keybukdpkg --configure -a12:43
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mdzsivang: if you've revised it, then you need to set it back to 'review' state to get further review01:14
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Keybukfabbione: ping?02:31
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Lathiatwow the zeroconf thread fired off into a mess yestrday03:13
Keybukit reached four levels03:15
Keybukafter that, all threads are inherently useless03:15
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zulheh...i dont have the energy to read that tonight03:16
Lathiati skimmed over the second useless half of it03:16
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robertjneuralis: you home?03:24
neuralisrobertj: sorry, have we met?03:25
robertjneuralis: nope, just stalking based off a poste to -devel. Was going to ask you about the whole zeroconf flameware and whether an amended policy for zero-conf was 100% off the table03:26
robertjbecause the one thing I haven't read is "Let's do another code-audit and amend our policy"03:26
neuralisit's actually been relatively non-flamewarish. no one has called anyone an idiot yet ;)03:27
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neuralisrobertj: i don't think an amended policy is absolutely, completely off the table, but it's not too far from. going down the exceptions road is a slippery slope.03:28
neuralisrobertj: i'm very strongly against it, to be sure. my mind could be changed, but it would require a good spec.03:29
robertjneuralis: I will say that I think a firewall is a non-solution03:30
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robertjneuralis: would you accept a trite saying if it was true :)03:31
neuralisrobertj: it might well be the case that the right thing to do is to open up zeroconf. but i want a spec convincing me, not a bunch of people shouting at each other on -devel.03:32
robertjthe little saying that grinds my mind is this: things should be a simple as possible but no simpler03:33
robertjbut it argues both sides of the coin, one in terms of UI and the other in terms of policy :)03:33
neuralisrobertj: basically, i'm fully open to discussing this, but NOT without a spec. i want a spec that looks at the implications, zeroconf's privilege needs, possible solutions, et cetera.03:35
robertjneuralis: is there really not a spec yet?03:35
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neuralisrobertj: not that i've seen, but i haven't been looking at zeroconf too closely.03:35
neuralisrobertj: there's kubuntu-easy-zeroconf targetting edgy, and zeroconf targetting dapper (deferred).03:36
robertjdigging now03:37
neuralisrobertj: both are looking at a way to enable zeroconf easily, but keep it turned off by default, so no spec exists that details what you're proposing.03:37
neuralisrobertj: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfSpec and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEasyZeroconf03:37
robertjahh I was looking in launchpad03:38
neuralisthese are launchpad specs, yes.03:38
robertjI wans't finding em there, I should have used the Wiki03:38
neuralisrobertj: they're there as zeroconf and kubuntu-easy-zeroconf, respectively. 03:38
robertjahh now i'm on the ubuntu spec page03:39
robertjneuralis: your certainly right, no deluge of information in these "specs"03:42
neuralisrobertj: it would be very helpful if you decided to remedy that.03:44
robertjshould I start a new wiki page & spec?03:44
robertjZeroConfSpec seems fine but the launchpad description does not03:45
robertj(fine as a name that is)03:45
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neuralisyes, i'd start a new spec. you have until the 6th to get the spec approved, so you'd ideally want to have it done in a day or so.03:45
robertjyou going to be on for the next little bit?03:47
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neuralisrobertj: 10pm here, i'm about to leave the office, but i'll be back on later tonight. feel free to mail me and request feedback.03:51
robertjwill do, thanks03:51
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KeybukI have absolutely no idea what I've done to my knee :-/04:01
zulbanged it?04:01
bddebianBlown ACL? :)04:01
Keybukit's a dull pain _under_ the knee cap04:01
bddebianWater on the knee?04:02
zuli think i have that04:02
Keybukyeah, that's vaguely what it feels like04:03
Keybukprobably a result of insufficent exercise at the conference04:03
Hobbseemorning Keybuk 04:03
bddebianBah, I'm old, fat, and out of shape and my knee doesn't hurt :-)04:04
bddebianHeya tseng04:04
KeybukI've got an edgy knee ... painful at the moment, but I'm sure it'll be fine given time04:06
neuralisKeybuk: it'll be edgy+1, given time.04:06
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=== Keybuk wonders when that "foo+1" notation started
HobbseeKeybuk: i believe when foo = breezy04:08
Hobbseewhen #ubuntu+1 started04:08
KeybukHobbsee: nah, it was a lot earlier than that04:08
Hobbseealthough, maybe earlier04:08
bddebianKeybuk: I dunno but it's irritating04:08
KeybukI think foo was originally "woody"04:08
Keybukbddebian: why?04:08
KeybukHobbsee: it's definitely something we inherited from Debian, and just started using when we ran out of pre-decided names04:09
bddebianWell not the term itself, just the usage.  Edgy barely opens and people start spouting Edgy+1.. :-)04:09
HobbseeKeybuk: ah right04:09
tsengbddebian: because ubuntu is transparent enough for the noisy kids to make a fuss about the next release04:11
Keybukbddebian: that's the best thing possible!04:11
tsengor maybe because the next release isnt 5 years in the future?04:11
Keybukit's a sign of a mature time based release process when you can talk about "not for this release"04:11
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Keybukhmm, yeah, woody+1 is the earliest I can see ... don't find a potato+1 or slink+1 in my mail archive04:12
Keybukwoody+1 was probably the first time Debian sat down and thought about "the next release" while still doing a release (it was the first time Debian had testing/)04:13
bddebianOK,OK, I give up04:17
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zulits like that nine inch nails song04:19
zuli tired...i gave up04:20
Keybukzul: "Closer" ?04:20
Keybukor a _different_ Nine Inch Nails song? :p04:21
Keybukthere's many to choose from04:21
tsengI think there is one called "Gave Up" actually04:21
Keybukyeah, I was just thinking, I don't think I got the right one there <g>04:21
bddebianNiN..pfft.. Metallica...04:24
zulKeybuk:  http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/nineinchnails/gaveup.html04:26
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robertjKeybuk: can you look over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZeroConfPolicySpec please?04:46
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siriusnovai feel really bad asking this in here but no one in #ubuntu can help me04:58
bddebianYou haven't asked anything04:59
siriusnovai need to recompile wpa supplicant because i am using patched madwifi drivers (no WPA menus show up in network manager) 05:00
siriusnovahow do i recompile wpa supplicant so that i can use Network manager and my new drivers, wep works fine05:01
siriusnovabasically is my question 05:01
siriusnovai know ths is the wrong place to ask but no one in #ubuntu could help me05:01
siriusnovasry :(05:01
bddebiansiriusnova: Sorry, I don't know05:04
siriusnovaits ok05:04
siriusnovano one else does either haha05:04
bluefoxicysiriusnova:  file bugs with the patches and the issue and maybe somedev will look at it and fix it :P05:07
siriusnovahrmm ok05:07
siriusnovabut do i need to recompile wpa after using patched drivers or not?05:07
siriusnovaim confused about the issue05:07
bluefoxicyI have no idea05:07
siriusnovame either heh 05:07
bluefoxicyI am more thinking, why did you patch the drivers05:07
siriusnovafor security testing, packet injection05:08
bluefoxicyfile a bug on whatever problem required it for a start-- ah, that sounds like a useful feature :)05:08
siriusnovaaircrack-ng etc..05:08
bluefoxicy(oh yes, "Ubuntu now supports cracking wifi encryption" in the list of new features for Edgy XD)05:09
siriusnovathe default madwifi drivers dont support it so they have to be patched, i used madwifi-old and patched them. Network Manager with wep works fine but there is no WPA menu so i am assuming i had to recompile wpa too but i cant find any detailed information regarding what exactly i have to do05:09
bluefoxicytseng: ssp looks to be on by default in edgy now, did pitti/doko fix the propolice issue on sparc?05:09
bluefoxicy.... o.O05:14
bluefoxicyI am STILL trying to figure out why certain things are in ubuntu-desktop (libgnome2-perl for now) ...05:20
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siriusnovaok another stupid question, the madwifi in Dapper is madwifi-old right?05:34
wasabiAll this ZeroConf talk is interesting.05:37
bluefoxicywhat does Ubuntu use cpio for...?05:42
mswbluefoxicy: initramfs?05:46
bluefoxicymsw:  figured it probably did... you could use tar/gzip for that or cpio, either or.05:46
mswbluefoxicy: note that you have to have the archive unpacker in kernel code -- you don't want to have to support every formt under the sun05:47
bluefoxicycpio works on its own archive format, not on tarballs?05:47
bluefoxicywait.. I thought initrds were EXT2 file system images that were gzip'd?05:48
mswthat's old initrd -- not initramfs05:48
bluefoxicywhat's initramfs?05:48
mswbluefoxicy: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=101095500820185&w=205:48
mswalas, I must retire - gnight05:49
mswsee also http://lwn.net/Articles/14776/05:49
bluefoxicymsw:  interesting05:50
bluefoxicymsw:  I had considered busybox + tarball on the initrd; mount a tmpfs; unpack the tarball to it; copy busybox into it; pivot_root; exec a fresh /linuxrc; umount the ramdisk05:50
bluefoxicywhich would appear to generate the same results05:50
bluefoxicyI guess kernel code to do this shorter is simpler though ;)05:51
mswsomewhat -- initramfs's size is dynamic05:51
bluefoxicyso is a tmpfs05:51
bluefoxicyyou specify a max size but really it uses about 0 until it stores files05:51
mswwhereas initrd has to have a RAMDISK_SIZE set large enough to decompress the image05:51
bluefoxicy(it doesn't calculate that on the fly?)05:51
mswyou can set it on the kernel command line05:52
bluefoxicyok point made :)05:52
mswbut it's not dynamic05:52
bluefoxicynight msw05:52
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renewiphi, can I write on ntfs partition if I rebuild ubuntu kernel ???06:40
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wasabigrrr. udev.06:51
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anibalfabbione, ping07:00
fabbioneanibal: pong07:05
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siriusnovaim going to shoot my laptop07:11
stubLaunchpad will be going down in 15 minutes for its regular code update. Estimated downtime is 20 mins.07:17
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anibalfabbione, when you have a chance, please have a look at my package nfs-utils_1.0.8-10ubuntu107:56
fabbioneanibal: where is that supposed to be?07:58
crimsun14:40 < crimsun> fabbione: anibal has prepared merged nfs-utils at  http://users.monash.edu.au/~anibal/ubuntu/nfs-utils/ . They look sane to me.07:58
fabbionemeh.. ok07:58
fabbioneit's kind of overkill to check a merge07:58
fabbioneit's faster to do it 07:59
fabbionebut ok07:59
crimsunfabbione: just following protocol ;)07:59
anibalfabbione, I would like to keep my debian packages in sync with the ubuntu packages07:59
fabbioneanibal: yes i could guess that07:59
fabbionei don't disagree at all in the reason why08:00
fabbioneanyway fetching08:00
fabbioneanibal: did you consider to join the MOTU and later core-dev?08:00
anibalfabbione, I'm very interested to join the MOTU and later core-dev :)08:01
fabbioneanibal: ok08:01
anibalit would be nice to upload same versions of packages to debian and ubuntu at the same time :)08:03
anibalmdz, hello08:03
fabbioneanibal: what's the diff between the deb and ubuntu package by now?08:04
fabbionei mean what's leftover?08:04
anibalthe lbs in the init.d scripts08:05
fabbioneand that's it?08:05
anibalsoon the debian and ubuntu packages will be the same08:06
fabbioneanibal: didn't debian adopt the lsb stuff already?08:06
anibalit's one of our release goals08:07
fabbioneso why can't we just merge the lsb changes in -11 and we sync from you?08:07
fabbionewhat's holding that up?08:07
anibalI need to test it08:08
fabbioneanibal: what kind of testing would you like to see?08:08
fabbionewe have been using this changes for the last 2 years + or -08:08
fabbioneand i do personally use nfs here08:08
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=== fabbione can prove it
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anibaland also, I want to have the current package moved to etch, before I introduce the lsb changes08:09
fabbionefair enough08:09
fabbioneall good reasons08:09
fabbionei will upload these changes to edgy08:09
anibalfabbione, ta08:10
fabbionebut can you be so kind to remind me when -11 with lsb changes will hit sid?08:10
fabbioneat that point we can enable the autosync08:10
fabbioneand you just upload to sid08:10
fabbionedoes it sound like a plan for you?08:10
anibalyep, sound good to me :)08:10
anibals/sound/it sounds08:11
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anibalthanks again08:12
fabbioneno problem08:12
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fabbioneanibal: uploaded08:13
fabbionethanks for the merge08:13
anibalgood :)08:13
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fabbioneanibal: did you get all the bits and pieces for NFSv4 too, right?08:45
fabbione(catching up on -devel)08:46
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fabbioneE: Could not open file /var/lib/apt/extended_states - open (2 No such file or directory)09:03
fabbioneE: Failed to open StateFile /var/lib/apt/extended_states09:03
fabbionemvo: ^^09:03
fabbionemvo: what the hell is that?09:03
mvofabbione: ah, thanks09:03
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fabbionemvo: freshly updated EDGY :P09:04
sivangprobably the code that was moved from aptitude to apt? :)09:04
=== sivang updates as well
mvofabbione: I'm fixing this with the next upload09:05
mvosivang: yes09:05
fabbionemvo: ok thanks :)09:06
sivangmvo: cool :) Will I be able to call the package left over removal stuff from another program? 09:06
mvosivang: yes, I will send a mail about this soonish09:06
sivangmvo: yay09:07
mvofabbione: what operation did give you this message?09:08
fabbioneapt-get install libx11-dev09:08
fabbionemvo: everything did install fine09:09
fabbionethe error was the very end09:09
mvofabbione: thanks, I have it here now too09:09
fabbioneSetting up libxt-dev (1.0.0-0ubuntu3) ...09:09
fabbioneE: Could not open file /var/lib/apt/extended_states - open (2 No such file or directory)09:09
fabbioneE: Failed to open StateFile /var/lib/apt/extended_states09:09
fabbionemvo: no problem at all09:09
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pittihi ivoks 09:22
ivokspitti: hi09:22
=== sivang hugs pitti
ivoksi have great news09:22
pittihi sivang 09:23
ivokspitti: i found python ipp library09:23
pittiivoks: oh, I thought you knew about it?09:23
ivokspitti: it's even better than redhat's pycups09:23
pittiivoks: jamesh wrote a python module for it once09:23
pittibut I thought you would know it09:23
ivokspitti: jamesh?09:24
ivoksi found ipplib09:24
ivoks(c) 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 Jerome Alet09:24
jameshivoks: mine is at http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/code/ipplib.py09:24
jameshhaven't touched it for a few years09:25
ivoksthis one is fresh (may 2006)09:25
ivoksbut i'll take a look at yours09:25
pittijamesh: your's was very nice for a few debugging tasks so far :)09:25
ivoksmaybe combine it with this one09:25
jameshmine worked okay with cups and HP jetdirect cards09:25
jameshbut I had some problems talking to a Canon ImageRunner09:25
ivoksi needed to talk with cups only, atm09:26
ivokssvn://svn.librelogiciel.com/ipplib/trunk iplib09:26
jameshivoks: actually http://www.jamesh.id.au/files/ipplib.py is a little newer09:26
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ivokssame name, but somewhat different :)09:32
ivoksi'll tak a look at your ipplib later today, when i'm back from work09:33
ivoksbye for now09:34
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dholbachgood morning09:49
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carlosdoko: ping10:24
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sivangmorning dholbach 11:04
raphinkhi sivang, dholbach11:04
dholbachhi sivang, raphink11:04
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raphinkhi cousin :)11:04
sivangraphink: hey Mr. Grunberg :)11:06
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doko<carlos> doko: ping11:23
doko<doko> carlos: pong11:23
carlosdoko: I'm on a phone call, give me some minutes...11:25
anibalfabbione: that was the last package waiting for NFSv4, everything looks good now :)11:26
carlosdoko: I'm back11:26
fabbioneanibal: ok thanks11:26
carlosdoko: what's the status of OO.org language packs?11:26
fabbionewho is Glite that just edited UbuntuCluster ?11:26
carlosdoko: other than the warning we saw? did you manage to workaround the long path problem?11:27
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dokocarlos: yes, removing two languages :)11:37
carlosdoko: so, are we able to upload an update?11:38
\shmvo: ping 11:45
mvo\sh: pong11:46
\shmvo: aptitude: Depends: libapt-pkg-libc6.3-6-3.11 but it is not installable11:47
\shmvo: freshly created edgy chroot :)11:47
mvo\sh: its edgy ;)11:49
mvo\sh: there is a new version of aptitude uploaded, its just not build yet11:49
mvo\sh: we got a new apt (PHEAR!)11:49
Kamionseb128: libcairo binaries newed11:49
seb128Kamion: thank you!11:49
\shmvo: yes ;) ah ok...I thought it was the latest aptitude11:49
dokocarlos: carlos didn't check yet, trying to get 2.0.3 built before seb128 starts to upload the new gnome11:49
mvo\sh: 0.4.1-1.1ubuntu2 is currently waiting to be build11:49
\shmvo: k11:53
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carlosdoko: ok12:07
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dholbachGloubiboulga: i'm just merging goffice and gnumeric - it'd be nice if you'd look over them (later) and see if I retained your *-gtk* changes correctly12:23
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ograRiddell, do you have any idea what happened to the plans of the kdeedu guys to split the source in single packages ? it seems to get bigger and bigger with every release12:46
Riddellogra: I've not heard of any such plans, packagers keep asking for it but KDE quite like their large modules12:50
Riddellogra: are you merging kdeedu?12:50
ograi'm about to ... seems trivial12:50
ograunless you claim it12:50
Riddellnope, go ahead12:50
Riddellalthough adding the ocaml stuff to it would be cool12:51
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ograits just the 60Mb upload thats a *bit* annoying everytime :)12:51
Riddellunfortunetely the ocaml build stuff is broken12:51
ograoh, so i should probably wait and jump on something else for now12:51
ograwell, if it ftbfs ...12:52
ogra(i like to see my results asap after doing package work, else i tend to forget about it :) )12:53
Riddellit'll get stuck in NEW, I think there's a kdeedu-dbg package added12:54
Riddellbut the ocaml stuff is broken upstream, it doesn't do builddir!=sourcedir12:54
=== Kamion halves germinate's runtime
Riddellso to add it to the kdeedu package you'd need to do funky tricks to get it to build12:54
ograany ETA when that'll be fixed ?12:55
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Kamionok, since you two (Riddell/ogra) are here, I think I should have seed-cleanup pretty much implemented, so shortly I'll change the Ubuntu seeds to say "Extra-Include: *-dbg *-dev *-doc" and a few excludes to eliminate the packages matching those patterns that we don't want12:56
\shwhen is the cronjob running which is pushing newly build packages to a.u.c?12:56
Kamionyou will have a somewhat interesting merge as a result12:56
pitti\sh: at :03 hourly AFAIK12:56
\shpitti: thx12:57
Kamionfeel free to talk to me if you're confused, but the upshot is that we shouldn't need to seed -dbg/-dev/-doc packages by hand any more12:57
ograKamion, fun :)12:57
Kamion\sh: it *starts* at :03 hourly but takes quite a while to run; in practice the mirrors don't get triggered until :40 or so12:57
RiddellKamion: cool12:58
\shhmm...complete ubuntu server with apache, nfs, tftp, dhcp3, fai + configuration in 150secs...too long12:58
\shtime to beat: <=120secs12:59
pygijdub, you have a sec?01:00
Hobbseepygi: i believe he's severely jetlagged and asleep01:00
pygiHobbsee, oki, thanks :)01:00
ograRiddell, libfacile-ocaml-dev is already in kdeedus build deps01:00
ograseems thats a no op for us01:00
Riddellogra: oh, interesting01:01
Riddellogra: want to do the main inclusion report for libfacile-ocaml-dev? :)01:01
ogrameh, but they also added a dep for a ttf we dont have ...01:01
pittiRiddell: ouch, do you want to reintroduce ocaml to main?01:02
ograwell, i have to do one for ttf-sjfonts, so i can do the one for libfacile-ocaml-dev as well01:02
pittiRiddell: we were about this -><- close to throw it out01:02
Riddellpitti: it's mostly up to ogra, whether he wants/needs the functionality it adds01:02
ograpitti, write me some educational gnome apps and we can drop kdeedu and ocaml from main :P01:02
ogra(i'd *so* love to drop it)01:03
pittiogra: find -type f | xargs sed -i s/G/K/g in the sources is not eough to port it :-P01:04
Riddellogra: you can still remove the ocaml stuff if you want to keep pitti happy01:05
ograi guess i'll do that then ... we lived fine without it in dapper01:05
ograat least i have heard no complaints yet01:06
\shwhat kdeedu app needs ocaml?01:06
ograall ?01:06
Riddell\sh: kalzium I think01:06
ograat least kalzium01:06
Riddelland it doesn't need it, it just adds some extra features if you have it01:06
ograwhich is the main reason for kdeedu in edubuntu01:06
\shand kalzium needs it to run properly or is it just some scientist gimmick?01:06
pygiogra, sorry for interupting, but arent we removing kdeedu from edgy?01:06
ograits an optional add on01:07
ograpygi, if you have a replacement 01:07
\shogra: then throw ocaml somewhere but not in kdeedu ;)01:07
Riddellit can probably be split out into a separate source package without too much difficulty01:07
ograyou mean kalzium ? 01:08
RiddellI mean the ocaml bits of it01:08
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pygiogra, I don't really have a replacement, but ... 01:09
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Riddellogra: so I'd say remove the ocaml dep to keep pitti happy and I'll find an elite MOTU to build the ocaml stuff in a separate universe package01:10
\shpygi: without kdeedu edubuntu has nothing...I think it helds the majority of edu apps...but I can be wrong01:10
ograpygi, well, Kamion donated 20MB free space to the CD so if we now could switch yelp to xulrunner and have epiphany as default browser that should gain us a lot in the end ...01:10
ograRiddell, fine with me :)01:11
spaceyepiphany++ =)01:11
pittiRiddell, ogra: don't worry too much, ocaml isn't a real burden01:13
pittiif you need it, we keep it01:13
ograpitti, no we dont *need* it (apparently)01:14
tsengogra: so, is there a real plan to move anything to xulrunner?01:14
tsengogra: i am merging gecko-sharp2 which uses libxul in debian01:14
ogratseng, well, edubuntu needs to switch to epiphany in any case01:14
tsengogra: i was going to build on firefox-dev per our last talk01:14
tsengand epiphany will use libxul?01:14
ogratseng, ask the epiphany maintainer :)++01:15
=== tseng tickles seb128
ograseb128, do you plan to go with debian here ? 01:15
ograi know there is an informal spec01:15
tsengI am assuming it is pretty safe to mix firefox-dev and libxul-dev packages at runtime?01:16
dholbachogra: epiphany and everything else will build with firefox01:16
ograno idea, i'd drop all ff-dev deps if possible01:16
dholbachogra: it makes no sense to have firefox AND xulrunner source in main01:16
ogradholbach, why ? thats a huge delta to debian we produce here01:16
=== tseng goes ahead with his building with firefox-dev
dholbachit's not, it's some characters in debian/control and debian/rules01:17
ograso i still have to waste tens of megabytes in the edubuntu CD, sigh01:17
dholbachogra: it's not my decision, but try to ask pitti and iwj if they want to support xulrunner and firefox in main01:18
ograOLPC wont work either withhout xul btw01:18
dholbachogra: firefox supports xul too - xulrunner is just the name of the 'engine'01:18
ograbut firefox pulls in language packs01:19
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Kamionindeed, if firefox can be built against xulrunner then that would solve the problem01:19
ograits not ff itself01:19
ograits the deps that make probs 01:19
Kamionwe may not want to push that ourselves, but the xulrunner maintainer in Debian is also one of the firefox maintainers01:19
pittidholbach, ogra: If firefox can use xulrunner, then I'm fine with it; otherwise, having two copies of ffox code on the CD seems bad to me (not even considering the overhead of providing security updates for two copies)01:20
ogras/make probs/eat space/01:20
dholbachfor that we need a supported and maintained "firefox-without-xulrunner-parts" tarball from upstream01:20
ograpitti, my biggest prob are the deps of yelp and epiphany01:20
ograif these two could swwitch i'd already be fine ... 01:20
ograi'm not after commiting to be xulrunner maintainer, but if thats the only way i'd even take the bllame here01:21
ogra(indeed that still duplicates the source)01:21
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dholbachiwj: do you know something about the state of things concerning "firefox-without-xulrunner-parts"?01:24
henomvo: ping01:24
henodholbach: will you guys be taking this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FutureOfGst forward for Edgy?01:25
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dholbachheno: yes, carlos garnacho will work on some select fixes and problems01:25
henodholbach: ok, there is some related work being done by these people: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=207894 FYI01:26
tsengdholbach: carlos rocks!01:26
dholbachheno: that's more about control-center, isn't it?01:27
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henodholbach: yes (heno is still not quite clear on where those overlap ...)01:27
henodholbach: any work on control-center being planned I could look at?01:28
dholbachheno: to me it seems they are only referring to control-center01:28
dholbachheno: just upstream control-center CVS, sorry01:28
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sladenogra: we ported xpdf to poppler, which is a fairly similar setup01:30
ograsladen, yes, but poppler is in main already and doesnt duplicate source01:30
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Riddellpitti: any opinion on adding back gpgsm to kdepim in edgy?  I've talked to the upstream and he insists its stable despite having a .9 version number01:31
pittiRiddell: that's gnupg2, right?01:32
Riddellpitti: yes01:33
pittiRiddell: is there any ETA for 2.0 release?01:33
pittiRiddell: I wouldn't mind too much having it in main01:33
Riddellpitti: "sometime in summer", but I wouldn't hold my breath for it01:34
tsengany build admins who can try kicking mono-tools?01:34
fabbionetseng: you need to ask Keybuk when he is around01:35
tsengfabbione: k.01:35
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ograhrm, why the heck did they add cdbs as build dep to kdeedu ... there are no cdbs bits in it at all ...01:40
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=== ogra sees the conflicts in rules and shuts up
Gloubiboulgadholbach, ok (about goffice/gnumeric), I'll have a look01:45
dholbachGloubiboulga: i wait on a sync and upload another merge before - i'll notify you01:48
iwjdholbach: No, I know nothing about that.01:49
KamionI'm about to do a sync run now01:50
dholbachiwj: it would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce it in a "edgy" release cycle. :-)01:50
dholbachKamion: thanks a lot - you rock! :-)01:50
tsengif anyone missed this page like I did01:51
tsengmost useful thing of all time01:51
fabbioneoh cow01:55
fabbionethey fixed it01:55
pittifabbione: moo?01:56
fabbionemy page is endless.. i don't even want to think about Colin or Seb :)01:56
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pittihi zul01:58
zulhey pitti how is it going?01:59
Hobbseehi zul 01:59
zulhey Hobbsee 01:59
henowhat's the right procedure for suggesting removals from edgy main? 02:01
ogragrmbl ... you cnat build that silly kdeedu sourcepackage in dapper, sigh02:01
\sha segmentation fault during building is not a good sign02:01
Kamionheno: file a bug on the package concerned and subscribe ubuntu-archive02:01
=== heno remembers seeing a spec somewhere, but can't find it ...
henoKamion: ok, thanks02:01
Kamionheno: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources for documentation of this and caveats02:01
\shremovals from main?02:02
henocool, thx02:02
ogra\sh, demotions to universe02:02
Kamionheno: oh, you meant demotions, not removals?02:02
henoKamion: yes, demotions 02:02
Kamionheno: ok, see "Seed management" in DeveloperResources02:02
\shanyone familiar with dietlibc?02:03
Riddellogra: why not?02:03
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ograRiddell, it needs cdbs 0.4.3702:04
Riddellogra: which kde.mk is it using?02:04
ogradebian/cdbs/debian-qt-kde.mk: No such file or directory02:04
Hobbseeogra: what? why?02:04
Hobbseeguess you can call it anything if you're shipping it with the package02:05
ograit has a build dep on cdbs >= 0.4.37 which apparently ships that file 02:05
Riddelldebian-qt-kde.mk is part of the package02:05
ograits just annoying that i have to build an edgy chroot just to build the source package02:05
Hobbseeoh good02:05
Riddellhopefully it'll use the stock kde.mk02:05
Riddellogra: if you're developing for edgy it's kindae a good idea to have an edgy chroot02:06
ograRiddell, well, for most sourcepackages a edgy pbuilder is sufficient ... 02:06
\shbin-i386/diet gcc -pipe -nostdinc -Os -fomit-frame-pointer -falign-functions=1 -falign-jumps=1 -falign-loops=1 -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 -Wall -W -Wchar-subscripts -Wmissing-prototypes -Wmissing-declarations -Wno-switch -Wno-unused -Wredundant-decls -o bin-i386/elftrunc contrib/elftrunc.c02:06
\shmake[1] : *** [bin-i386/elftrunc]  Segmentation fault02:06
\shnot for this 02:06
Kamiondoko: re 51818, did you check out the wxwidgets2.6 changes?02:07
Kamionogra: and a pbuilder is what exactly if not a chroot? ;-)02:07
ograhaving to have a chroot to just create a sourcepackage is just bad ... you'll not be able to backport for example ...02:07
fabbioneogra: you should be running edgy no matter what :)02:07
ograKamion, well, an additional one just to have a source package i can throw into pbuilder 02:07
Kamion'pbuilder login' HTH02:08
fabbioneogra: you have pbuilder login to enter the chroot02:08
ografabbione, and suffer from all the breakage you guys introduce ? :)02:08
fabbioneogra: and the chroots are in /var/ somewhere02:08
ograKamion, i know02:08
=== fabbione larts ogra
fabbioneedgy is BUG FREE02:08
ograi find it still wrong for a source package to do that02:08
zulhey fabbione 02:08
fabbionehey zul02:08
Hobbseefabbione: famous lasts words :P02:08
Yagisanof course there are no moths in edgy ;)02:09
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ografabbione, really 02:09
ogra7me quickly starts the upgrade02:09
fabbioneHobbsee: it works (for me) so it must work for everybody02:09
fabbioneHobbsee: if it doesn't work, your setup is wrong02:09
Mithrandirfabbione: yeah, must be hardware bugs.02:09
=== ogra expects evo cant crash more often for him than in dapper and ff might still work ...
fabbioneMithrandir: they are indeed02:10
zulogra: evolution is so much fun though02:10
ograMithrandir, sorry for the makedev merge yesterday, Kamion told me about your plans but it was urgent to fix a fuse bug 02:10
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ograzul, especially on powerpc :)02:10
ograi.e. if you forget that searching in mailboxes gets evo in an infinite crash loop and you have to delete your mailboxes completely to make it work again, these are the moments where i think about reinstalling breezy :P02:12
zulyeah thats why i dont use it02:14
ograwell up to breezy it worked fine ...02:14
Mithrandirevo is quite debuggable so it should be easy enough to track down and get a fixed version into -updates and edgy, though02:14
tsengso far evo 2.7 has worked better for me02:15
ograin dapper i get at least one "evo recieved an X window system error" a day if i just move the mouse over the window and that upstream search bug they dont find a fix for02:15
ograMithrandir, its an upstream bug they didnt find the cause for in time ...02:15
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ograbut well, i'll go to edgy, things can only get better :)02:16
tsengedgy so far is our smoothest devel cycle yet02:17
ogratseng, wait until rodarvus starts his work :P02:17
rodarvustseng, things will change on this regard ;)02:18
tsengrodarvus: oh no!02:18
=== Yagisan looks forward to less USN's with edgy :)
tseng(I *hope* -lite)02:18
dokoKamion: yes02:22
Kamiondoko: thanks02:22
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sivangogra: I switched to thunderbird. Gives me much better workflow with imaps02:25
ograsivang, i'm fine with evo... as long as it works ;)02:25
sivangogra: it mostly worked for me actually, but it took too much time to fetch emails, and to shutdown when I wanted to close my machines. Also I find it easier to read emails with it and do all srots fo sorting and grouping02:26
ograsivang, but it would be boring if i had nothing to rant about on days you can only survive with 2kg of icecram to your left and right and with your feet in a bucket of iced water ;)02:28
sivangogra: ha ha ha, I'm actually trying to use my room's AC, currenly it failes to really cool the room :)02:29
=== sivang needs to get a bucket of iced water as well
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dokoKamion: please sync #51777 as well, so that the other python packages can build02:34
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sivangmalone #5177702:35
UbugtuMalone bug 51777 in Ubuntu "sync requests" [Untriaged,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5177702:35
sivangdoko: I saw there was already one sync of python-support, no? (as in the "updated mergers" in m.u.c)02:37
mvo\sh: I will request a ssync for cpunit (you touched it last, that is why I tell you :)02:37
Kamiondoko: ...02:38
Kamiondoko: I did that first02:39
Kamioncan a member of ubuntu-dev confirm bug 51824, please?02:39
UbugtuMalone bug 51824 in fonttools "sync fonttools 1.99+2.0b1+cvs20060225-1 from unstable" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5182402:39
dokoKamion 51824 looks ok, just python changes02:41
Kamiondoko: thanks, could you put a note in the bug?02:41
Kamiondoko: oh, don't bother, it was one of your python syncs already02:42
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dokoKamion: hmm, didn't get an email for the 51777 syncs02:43
dokoI should subscribe to edgy-changes ...02:43
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pittiKeybuk: did you plan to process NEW today?02:44
Keybukpitti: I process NEW *everyday*02:44
pittiok, cool :)02:44
Kamiondoko: they're definitely in accepted02:44
Kamionwith the exception of the one that landed in new02:44
pittiKeybuk: I uploaded the first version of pkg-create-dbgsym today; it should remain in universe for now02:44
pittiKeybuk: (it's not urgent, just telling you for the overrides)02:45
\shslomo: ping02:47
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sivang\sh: He'll be online this evening02:49
sivang\sh: he has project in uni he needs to attend to, etc02:49
\shlibquicktime sync depends on libavcodec-dev which is in universe, because ffmpeg is universe, too02:49
pittiKeybuk: if you could accept gnutls13 from NEW soon, that would rock02:49
\shor are there plans to promote ffmpeg to main?02:49
Kamion$ q info gnutls02:50
KamionListing ubuntu/edgy (NEW) 0/1702:50
zulBenC: ping02:50
tseng\sh: are you kidding?02:50
\shtseng: no...looks like I have to deal with libquicktime first02:50
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KeybukKamion: u6y-advanced-partitioner approved02:50
tsengKeybuk: hi, can you please kick mono-tools, evolution-sharp02:50
Kamion\sh: I believe that one will need a merge but I'm not sure02:50
KamionKeybuk: thanks02:50
Keybuktseng: define "kick"02:51
pittiKamion: oh, hm; it's in unstable, I thought we'd automatically get it02:51
\shKamion: it was a sync on 2006-06-28 02:51
tsengKeybuk: "rebuild the same source package on the buildd because it theoretically works fine now"02:51
\shKamion: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+source/libquicktime/02:51
tsengevo-sharp had a broken evo-dev at the time, bad luck02:51
tsengsimilar for mono-tools02:51
Kamionpitti: it's on the new-packages list02:51
Keybuktseng: ah, you want a give-back02:52
KamionKeybuk: do you wanna sync gnutls13? I'm bored of archive admin for a bit02:52
tsengKeybuk: hm right sorry02:52
KeybukKamion: sure02:52
Keybuktseng: ok, all needs-build again02:52
tsengKeybuk: thanks!02:52
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Keybukpitti: any ubuntu changes?02:53
pittiKeybuk: for what?02:53
Keybukgnutls13 ?02:54
pittiKeybuk: oh, that's not in ubuntu yet02:54
Kamionit's new02:54
Keybukoh, I see, it's literally NEW in Debian02:54
KeybukE: libgnutls-dev is in main but it's source (gnutls13) is not.02:54
pittiKeybuk: right now, the gnutls12/13 libtasn1-2/3 situation is quite confused02:54
pittiwe need to clean it up02:54
KeybukKamion: can we get a cruft-check for that one?  (binary in main, but source in universe)02:54
pittiKeybuk: Keybuk libgnutls-dev is currently built from gnutls12 for us02:55
KamionKeybuk: anastacia reports it02:55
Kamionyou'll get "source only promotions to main" or some such02:55
pittiKeybuk: (it's not new in Debian, BTW)02:55
Kamion(I just promoted python-central for the same thing)02:55
KeybukKamion: it doesn't ?02:55
KeybukKamion: e.g. gnutls12 above02:55
KamionKeybuk: when you're syncing a new source, use -f -F to override the component check02:55
KeybukKamion: yeah, I know the override wibble :p02:55
KamionKeybuk: gnutls13 is not in Ubuntu and sync-source assumes universe therefore02:55
Kamionif it's being newed into main then it's not a problem02:56
KamionKeybuk: anastacia obviously doesn't report it when the package isn't in the archive yet02:56
Keybukah, duh02:56
Keybukright, it's just sync-source being silly, that one02:56
KamionKeybuk: sync-source is saying "libgnutls-dev is in main but you're asking me to sync new source for it which [I think]  won't be in main"02:56
KeybukI've seen it the other way too, where syncing a non-new package had the same problem02:57
Keybukbut I haven't looked at anastacia in edgy through fear02:57
Kamionyeah, that's possible in the event that it starts generating packages it didn't previously generate02:57
KamionI'm not touching demotions from main in edgy until hppa catches up or I'm told not to care02:57
KeybukI figure caring about promotions is sufficient for not02:58
Keybukbtw, who put type-handling in the supported seed? :p02:58
KamionKeybuk: that's a weird-shit germinate thing02:58
Kamionit's not actually in supported, it's because type-handling provides: linux02:59
Keybuklinux is in the supported seed?02:59
Kamionbut for some reason germinate isn't picking the real package02:59
Kamion%linux-meta is in supported02:59
Kamionit's not a massive deal, I'll figure it out at some later point and in the meantime we can just ignore it03:00
KamionKeybuk: I implemented seed-cleanup this morning - just deployment stuff to go before we can delete loads of stuff from supported03:00
pittiKeybuk: basically we have two options: first get rid of libtasn1-2 to migrate to 1-3, and then do the gnutls12->13 migration as a second step (which will mean to rebuild a lot of packages twice), or do it all in one shot (tasn+gnutls) which will be messier, but faster03:01
Kamionactually didn't pull in toooo many new binaries, but enough to reassure me that it was actually doing something :)03:01
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KamionKeybuk: I also halved germinate's runtime ;-)03:01
\shif someone cares, on http://archive.linux-server.org/ is the new libquicktime source package which resolves the dep-wait and can be pushed by keybuk...03:01
=== Kamion struggles to see how a Keybuk-push would be needed
Keybukpitti: we have the new libtasn and gnutls now, yes?03:02
\shKamion: manual dep-wait...or is keybuk not processing the manual dep-waits?03:02
Kamionnew uploads automatically clear dep-waits03:02
tsengmanual dep-waits arent that manual anymore03:02
pittiKeybuk: libtasn1-3 is already in main, but not yet used; gnutls13 will appear soon then, I assume?03:02
pittiKeybuk: I'd really like to get this transition behind us soon (I'll care for it), since right now it's a mess03:03
\shok, then the text of buildlog_ubuntu-edgy-i386.libquicktime_1:0.9.7-0.6_MANUALDEPWAIT.txt.gz is wrong ;)03:03
pittiKeybuk: so if you are fine with the 'let's do it all at once' approach, that'll be my afternoon03:03
Keybukpitti: yup, it's processed03:03
pitticool, thanks03:03
pittiKeybuk: in main already?03:03
Keybukpitti: I think it just made this publisher run, yes03:04
Keybuk\sh: what does your upload fix?03:05
\shKeybuk: it removes libavcodec-dev from build-deps and let this package build03:05
Keybuk\sh: ok, so just uploading is fine03:06
\shKeybuk: yes, i would, but can't so someone with main powers has to do it :)03:06
Keybuk\sh: BTW never upload signed dsc or changes files03:07
\shKeybuk: oh yes03:08
Keybukwhy should this not link to libavcodec?  what's the loss of functionality?03:08
Mithrandirseb128,dholbach: are any of you taking the control-center merge?03:08
\shKeybuk: libavcodec-dev is build from ffmpeg which is universe03:08
ograKeybuk, kino depends on libqicktime03:09
azeemis kino using gstreamer these days?03:09
ograazeem, not in debian, no03:09
ogra(i havent looked upstream though)03:09
Keybukright ... but what happens to libquicktime if you strip it of a build-dep?03:09
ograseems to still do the job03:10
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ograpitti, i get a conffile prompt for /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf ?03:10
\shKeybuk: so I think it removes 03:11
\sh DivX, MPEG4, AC3, DV,03:11
ogra(i havent touched that file)03:11
\shKeybuk: nothing it just builds, because it's just a codec for libquicktime03:11
\shKeybuk: so some fileformats are not handled by libquicktime.03:11
Keybuk\sh: aren't a bunch of those required for quicktime itself/03:11
\shKeybuk: not that I know of, in dapper it works as well without ffmpeg03:12
ograKeybuk, it worked for two releases (at least i havent seen a bug about it)03:12
Keybukright, so it's a new build-dep?03:13
\shhmm...I merged it for dapper, too...how strange ;)03:13
\shKeybuk: yes03:13
ograKeybuk, it always was a build dep in debian, i had to drop it in breezy to get kino to main03:13
pittiogra: hm; can you file a bug? (EBUSY)03:13
ograpitti, k03:14
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Keybukogra: ok, so whoever requested the sync instead of doing the merge properly needs to be spanked03:15
ograwasnt me :)03:15
ogramy panel just exploded to 48pt sized icons03:17
\shphew, I thought you are playing this evil game ;)03:17
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ograno, i opened my menu in the middle of a dist-upgrade to edgy03:18
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dholbachMithrandir: we'll do it, once the new gtk is in the archive and we can do the update with it03:21
HobbseeKeybuk: and who was it?03:21
ogratseng, 03:22
\shKeybuk: thx03:22
ograGot a SIGSEGV while executing native code. This usually indicates03:22
ograa fatal error in the mono runtime or one of the native libraries03:22
ograused by your application.03:22
Mithrandirdholbach: ok.  I'm playing Adam this week while he's on vacation and doing some of his merges, but I'll leave that to you.03:22
dholbachMithrandir: thanks03:23
=== Hobbsee just hopes it wasnt her or something :P
ogratseng, sh: line 1: 31278 Segmentation fault      /usr/bin/mono /usr/lib/mono/1.0/gacutil.exe /i .//usr/lib/cli/dbus-sharp-0.60/dbus-sharp.dll >/dev/null03:23
ogratseng, thast on ppc03:23
KeybukMithrandir: I think we all are :)03:24
=== Mithrandir idly wonders why junit seems to pull in dmidecode as a build-dep (indirectly, but still)
ograUse of uninitialized value in print at /var/lib/defoma/scripts/gs.defoma line 108.03:28
ogradidnt we get rid of that around release time ? 03:28
hungerogra: I always had those...03:28
=== ogra tries to put on a brave face and reboots to edgy
dholbach... and was never seen again03:32
Hobbseehehe yeah, i suspect so03:34
Hobbseeor was hiding in a corner, whimpering03:34
Keybukedgy is fine03:38
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dholbachKamion, Keybuk: can one of you get libvte9 (of the vte package) out of NEW and promote it to main, once you have a bit of time?03:40
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ograBenC, !03:41
Hobbseeogra: welcome back!  you did survive?03:41
ogranot really03:41
ograi have to attach a usb keyboard to my ibook03:42
pittiKinnison: ping03:42
ograno keyboard support at all anymore03:42
Keybukdholbach: are you going to take care of rebuilding everything that depends on it?03:42
dholbachKeybuk: yeppa03:42
Kinnisonpitti: I'm about to go into a pre-implementation call, anything I can do for you in the short-term?03:42
ogragnome is also weird but that was expected ...03:42
pittiKinnison: you mean for ddeb support?03:43
pittiKinnison: actually I wanted to ask you if I can grab the exim4 merge from you03:43
ograthat my suspend light on the ibook turned into a disk indicator lamp somehow wasnt03:43
Keybukdholbach: accepted03:43
dholbachKeybuk: rocknroll - thanks a lot03:43
Kinnisonpitti: No, not for ddeb, for ppa03:43
Kinnisonpitti: and I don't have a merge, what do you mean?03:44
pittiKinnison: http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html -> exim4 belongs to you right now03:44
sivangpitti: what's ddeb ? :)03:44
pittiKinnison: but I need to touch exim4 anyway for the gnutls13 transition03:44
pittisivang: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AptElfDebugSymbols03:44
pittiKinnison: I don't have a special urgency for ppa03:44
sivangpitti: ah, righ, cool03:45
Kinnisonpitti: amazing since I don't work on ubuntu03:46
Kinnisonpitti: Noone in distro cares about ppa, but it's mark's highest priority for the soyuz team03:46
ogramumble mumble03:46
sivangKinnison: it just indicates you're the last person to have touched it :)03:46
Kinnisonsivang: oh righty03:46
pittiKinnison: oh, I'd welcome PPA, it's nice for providing testing packages to users and such03:47
pittiKinnison: just from my perspective it's less important than security or ddeb support03:47
Kinnisonpitti: If you can find a single distro team member that rates ppa above build-unpublished-source, security-in-soyuz or similar then I'd love to know about them03:48
sivangKinnison: right, and it would make it quicker for folks to publish their packages and to use them as basis to get approved for uploading to different section of the archive :)03:48
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ogradholbach, do you have a reciepe to work around the panel taking 100% CPU in edgy ?03:52
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dholbachogra: it's the first time i hear of that03:52
dholbachogra: any other processes taking a lot of cpu?03:53
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ograwell, now it dropped to 65%03:53
ograbut stays there03:53
ograthe app menu doesnt work either03:53
ograits a flickering something ...03:53
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Mithrandirdoko: do you happen to know if there is a consensus in the debian java community to move towards java-gcj or if that's just us?03:54
ogralooks like its collapsing/expanding in half second cycles03:54
dholbachogra: hum... never heard of anything like it03:54
emsdid anyone notice http://www.ubuntu.com/include/ubuntu-cof-606.png might be offensive to Jews and the like03:54
ograwell, it also expands to 48px if i use the gartoon icons i blame version inconsistency for now03:55
ograi was just hoping you had a reciepe or something03:55
dholbachogra: no, heard of it for the first time03:55
emsit looks much like the Nazi swastika03:55
dokoMithrandir: there is (we said we did want to use java-gcj-compat), although it's not done very active.03:56
jsgotangcoems: surely the art director did not think of it03:57
Kamionems: it's just as much like the Isle of Man symbol03:57
Kamion(in neither case does it have the same number of legs)03:58
sivangems: I suspect you would be able to say this about every group of people photoed from above holding hands :)03:58
sivangems: (like this, and close in number)03:58
jsgotangcosivang: did you find it offensive?03:58
jsgotangcosurely not :)03:58
emsbut the hand bends...03:58
sivangjsgotangco: ofcourse not :)03:58
emscan we make sure it does not happen again?03:59
emscan it be noted to the director?03:59
Kamionit is not possible to ensure that nothing will offend anyone03:59
emsKamion: obviously.03:59
Kamionit is not a swastika; the swastika has four legs03:59
sivangKamion: they hands are also tilted in angle, no association AFAICS04:00
emscould it be noted to the director so it doesn't happen next time?04:00
Kamionso that what doesn't happen next time? an accidental association with some random other symbol?04:00
emslook lets keep this simple04:00
jsgotangcoright there's hardly anything to argue about it04:01
ograsurely not :)04:01
Keybukems: the swastika is a holy symbol to some religions04:01
Keybukrather than a symbol of evil04:01
zullike hinduism04:01
zulits just reverse04:01
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emsKeybuk: I understand that04:02
Keybukems: pretty much any symbol or shape offends some people, and delights others04:03
Kamionin any case, I'm reasonably sure it's come up in the hearing of art folks04:03
emsKeybuk: so lets keep this simple. The current photo has got criticism. Just point out the criticism to the director and it should be over.04:03
Kamionbut I doubt it's possible to give any guarantee04:03
Keybukthere are groups of people who'd be equally offended that the women in that picture aren't covered04:03
Keybuknot to mention that people are holding hands04:04
emsKeybuk: sure. 04:04
emsKeybuk: and the director I guess knows about that criticism04:04
Keybukwhich director?04:04
emsas I have no idea who the director is04:04
ograwe neither :)04:04
emscould this criticism be passed on to him04:04
Kamionthe ubuntu-art mailing list would be more appropriate04:04
Keybukems: we don't have "a director"04:05
ems<jsgotangco> ems: surely the art director did not think of it04:05
jsgotangcoems: its contracted outside04:05
Kamionin any case as I say I'm pretty sure it has already been brought up04:05
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Kamionbut of course everyone who thinks of it wants their objection individually logged04:05
emsKamion: if it has then okay...04:05
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emsKamion: I actually never notice it.04:05
Kamionyou just did, vocally :-)04:06
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emsKamion: a German pointed it to a friend who pointed ... who told me about it04:06
Kamionwas that somebody who was offended by it themselves?04:06
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emsKamion: I clearly above said it has the possiblity of offended Jews. I have no idea if it will actually ever offend a Jew.04:07
Kamiongiven that the Hebrew speaker I know of on this channel doesn't seem bothered, I don't think we should be overly worried04:07
emsKamion: and that is why I said lets keep this simple. 04:07
Kamionit's sometimes much easier to get righteously angry on behalf of imaginary people04:07
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ograems, as you heard before it doesnt at least offend the jews in this channel04:08
emsogra: of couse but that doesn't mean it couldn't offend...04:08
fabbioneKeybuk: pong04:08
jsgotangcowere going in circles04:08
emsanyway we have talked enough over this issue04:08
Keybukfabbione: kernel FTBS on sparc, I assume you're aware?04:09
=== Hobbsee is kinda tempted to take offence that there is no person representing general Asia in that picture
Kamioncome back when somebody's actually offended, and then it will be possible to discuss it with them04:09
sivangI'll repeat - I don't find it offensive neither I could see any association talked about.04:09
fabbioneKeybuk: 17-4 ?04:09
emsjust pass it on to someone who might care if (s)he exists...04:09
KeybukHobbsee: oddly enough, someone did complain about that04:09
Keybukfabbione: yeah04:09
jsgotangcoHobbsee: im not offended at all though04:09
Hobbseethat could cause offence, thinking that ubuntu isnt designed for people who live in the area, etc04:09
fabbioneKeybuk: no i didn't know, but i think BenC will notice.04:09
emssee you later04:09
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Hobbseejsgotangco: so i thought04:09
HobbseeKeybuk: darn!  :P04:09
HobbseeKeybuk: i was hoping for something that had never been, and never would be, thought up :P04:10
fabbioneKeybuk: i am not watching the kernel as close as i used to04:10
fabbioneKeybuk: but thanks for the info04:10
robertjKeybuk: I appreciate your response to my avahi policy-change spec04:11
Keybukrobertj: was chatting to Lathiat a lot about it yesterday04:12
robertjKeybuk: I feel like it's a good but not perfect solution04:12
robertjSecurity audit + policy change04:13
KeybukIt'd have to be a hell of a security audit, I'm afraid04:13
Keybukevery single line carefully considered, and the implications of every branch taken and expanded04:13
robertjWhich is a step above firewall which I consider "workable but long-term security problem"04:13
KeybukI still think that just having avahi-daemon switchable on/off at user request is adequate04:14
robertjKeybuk: It couldn't hurt, System->Administration->Services seems like the best place for it although its a but unfriendly these days to new users04:16
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robertjerr it's a bit unfriendly04:17
Keybukrobertj: I think the notification area is the right place for it04:17
Keybukas a clickable icon04:17
dholbachrobertj: i hope gnome-system-tools >= 2.15 will be a bit nicer04:17
robertjKeybuk: In it's present form I believe almost nothing should go on the notification tray04:17
seb128robertj: what is unfriendly about it ?04:18
Keybukrobertj: why?04:18
robertjKeybuk: almost no user would every want to turn it off04:19
lifelessKeybuk: you have mail I hope04:19
Keybukrobertj: it'd be off by default04:20
elmorobertj: you know how bluetooth in mobiles defaults to off?  ever wonder why?04:20
Keybukrobertj: I would expect most people to turn it on04:20
Keybukbut then that's their funeral04:20
KeybukI like the idea of the notification area being like the little icons on a mobile phone04:20
Keybukit's an interface most people will be familar with04:20
Keybukit's already like that really -- battery power, network signal, "you have (voice)mail", etc.04:20
Keybukdon't see why "laptop is discoverable via avahi/bluetooth/etc." shouldn't be in that list04:21
robertjseb128: overly-large icons, "real" service names, names & descriptions that are too mcuh alike, etc...04:21
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robertjseb128: even so, I'd prefer it be there. I'll also assume that default installs don't have 2 mail agents, 3 action schedulers, and 2 loggers04:22
robertjseb128: but not horrible by any means, and it sure beats nothing04:22
seb128robertj: what is wrong about using the service name?04:22
seb128robertj: upstream is not planning any change afaik because he's not aware of any issue, if you have some real complain suggestions are welcome04:23
robertjseb128: bug about it?04:23
seb128robertj: saying that it's unfriendly is not of real use04:23
seb128robertj: by example04:23
robertjseb128: can I get back with you in a few minutes after I get out of avahi-mode?04:24
robertjI _promise_ I won't drop the ball & will file a bug report04:24
seb128sure, no hurry04:25
seb128hey jdub04:26
robertjKeybuk: I think there are some battery concerns that bump bluetooth up the list, wifi has a level of security exposure that is more severe than avahi advertising so I think there are reasons it should be more prominant04:26
Keybukrobertj: bluetooth certainly has security concerns!04:27
robertjKeybuk: I know it does04:27
seb128jdub: GTK 2.10 is the suck, static build is b0rked and nobody has an idea (or people who could have an idea seems to not bother about it enough to track it)04:27
Keybukhow do you figure hiding an option in a dialog is more prominent than an icon on the desktop?04:27
jdubseb128: static matters for us?04:27
mvoseb128: wasn't static building b0rked with earlier versions too anyway?04:28
robertjIt's not, it's less. I think Wifi is a-ok for an always-on-screen element, as well as bluetooth04:28
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seb128jdub: it matters for Debian apparently and I didn't want to divert from them, but I'm that near || of dropping it04:28
seb128mvo: no, at least it has already been b0rked but fixed too04:28
Keybukrobertj: make it a single element04:28
jdubseb128: weird - the gtk+ dudes are not being responsive?04:29
robertjKeybuk: no matter what you have to decide either on or off by default04:29
jdubseb128: got some build log output?04:29
mvoseb128: hm, last time I tried that (1-2y ago) it claimed to be doable, but in reality it wasn't (because of dynamically loaded stuff like pango-modules and all this stuff)04:29
seb128jdub: mclasen and owen have no idea "offhand" and neither of them showed interest to look at it04:29
seb128jdub: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34653104:30
UbugtuGnome bug 346531 in gtk "GTK 2.10 static build is broken (required to package it for Debian and Ubuntu)" [Major,Unconfirmed]  04:30
robertjKeybuk: I guess you could ask when a network connection was created04:30
seb128mvo: GTK has a static build target since before I started working on GNOME for Debian04:30
robertjKeybuk: Most users will want guidance on what to select and not remember the dialog 2 days for then and be confused when their auto-detect doesn't work.04:31
seb128mvo: 04:31
seb128gtk+2.0 (2.2.0-1) unstable; urgency=low04:31
seb128  * debian/rules:04:31
seb128    modified to build the static libraries. (closes: Bug#161938)04:31
seb128 -- Akira TAGOH <tagoh@debian.org>  Mon,  6 Jan 2003 18:34:31 +090004:31
robertjKeybuk: but if we say This is a good idea for 99.9% of users then we will just be bothering people.04:31
mvoseb128: right, what I say is that also it is available I was not able to build a static linked gtk app that had no external dependencies (e.g. on pango-modules). this may be me of course04:32
seb128mvo: ah right04:32
robertjIf you are the kind of person who disables access to your USB ports then you can disable it, and if your not _and_ a vulnerability is discovered _and_ someone is on your subnet to exploit it _and_ your not doing your updates then you are screwed04:32
seb128mvo: <Np237> I've already raised the question on -devel, and people do use static libraries *especially* for gtk04:33
seb128mvo: I've not really tried myself04:33
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robertjKeybuk: but right now we are holding back major functionality because of a purely theoretical problem which we have lots of evidence to suggest is a non-issue and no verifiable way to ever know for sure the software is safe. 04:35
Keybukrobertj: *choke*04:36
Keybuksecurity is not a "non-issue"04:36
Keybukthe No Open Ports policy is there for a reason04:36
robertjKeybuk: I didn't say it was a non-inssue04:37
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Kamionrobertj: thing is, the burden of proof is on the proposer of opening up ports, not the other way round04:37
robertjKamion: we shouldn't open up dhcp because there is no way to prove there isn't an exploit left04:37
Kamionrobertj: there are ways to demonstrate that vulnerabilities are contained04:38
Kamionif that cannot be demonstrated for a piece of software, then it shouldn't be allowed to listen by default04:38
robertjKamion: what proof has been done on dhcp client then?04:38
Kamionalso, dhcp is a very long-established piece of software; we have a security history for it04:38
Keybukdhclient has been around for a very long time, and has had a large number of security audits done on it04:38
Keybuklikewise the libc resolver04:39
Keybukavahi has been around for a very short time, and to my (and Google's) knowledge, never had a formal security audit04:39
Kamionwe've also taken steps to ensure that the client runs as non-root04:39
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robertjMandrake had DHCP exploits in 200204:39
robertjSo vintage is no gauruntee unfortunately04:40
Keybukrobertj: a history of exploits is not necessarily negative04:40
Kamionit's a rare piece of network software that never has an exploit, but if 2002 is the best you can do, then that's not so bad04:40
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KeybukI actually feel more comfortable about code that's had bugs and exploits shaken out of it04:40
Keybuk(and yes, I know avahi has had very recent exploits :p)04:40
robertjKamion: I do to but technically I don't know they are "out" though04:40
Keybukanyway, this talk about DHCP is not much relevant; that has been granted a policy exception04:41
robertjIn the end the only way to know is to put it out there and let it sit a decade04:41
Kamionwell, no, having people who care turn it on is a good way to start finding out04:42
Keybukavahi is an interesting case, because while it is non-root and chroot'd, it still communicates with things outside of that jail -- dhclient doesn't04:42
Kamionit's not mass deployment that tells you about exploits, it's *just enough* deployment that people start auiting it04:42
Keybukso it's a little more concerning04:42
Keybukwe should certainly ship avahi in an "off by default" state04:42
Kamiondeploying avahi on my mum's computer won't tell you a thing about exploits :)04:43
Keybukthen, later, we can decide whether enough users have turned it on and shaken the bugs out04:43
robertjKeybuk: what makes you think people turning it on will spur an audit04:43
Keybukrobertj: such things often do04:43
Keybukthe right people using it makes other people look at it, etc.04:44
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robertjKeybuk: I don't think that's a very realistic expectation04:44
robertjYou have a 1:1000 chance that someone will get a group together & do a full code audit & do a good job04:44
robertjYou have the black-hats who won't look at it until there is an install base large enough for pandemic spreading to occur because it's in their best interest not to04:45
pittihow come that all our buildds are idle when there are a thousand packages waiting to be built?04:46
Zdrathe problem I see is if we don't activate it by default users won't know about that feature ! What is great is tu turn on an ubuntu computer and say "oh my god I can see shared folders from my other ubuntu machine !"... I don't understand how we can tell it "zeroconf" if the user has tu enable it...04:46
robertjAnd you have the white-hats who for the most part have more fun things to do than do a code audit & a whole slew of ways around the issue including turning a blind eye, firewalling traffic, disabling multicast & setting up machines by hand, etc04:46
neuralisrobertj: there are multiple ways to approach the problem. very carefully looking at avahi's security implications, and documenting how each can be best addressed in the code first (e.g. sshd's privilege separation, etc) would be an excellent start.04:47
neuralisrobertj: i haven't read your spec yet, it's in my queue for later today.04:47
robertjThere is no use case in which a code audit takes less effort/money than disabling multicast or securing your network in general04:47
robertjKeybuk: do you see these as factors that make it unlikely for anyone to do the kind of needed audit themselves?04:49
Keybukrobertj: tbh, I don't care :P04:49
Keybukuntil such an audit has happened, I don't see that avahi has proved itself worthy of an open port04:49
KeybukI really don't see a problem shipping it off by default forever04:49
neuraliskeybuk: +1.04:49
Keybukmy phone came with bluetooth and irda off by default04:50
robertjneuralis: next question, do you think its important enough that it's worth begging Mark for $$$ to pay someone to do?04:50
Keybukthis, to me, is not a problem04:50
robertjerr Keybuk, sorry04:50
Keybuknope, I don't04:50
mjg59Keybuk: Bluetooth comes switched off by default because of battery life concerns more than security04:50
KeybukI don't think it's important at all04:50
KeybukI seriously don't think anybody will care that it's off by default04:51
robertjI think a lot of the least-vocal users will04:51
Keybukmjg59: right, the reason they're off doesn't matter04:51
Keybukif those users are missing the obvious "turn this on forever" button, then those users are idiots04:51
pittiG0SUB: ping04:52
Keybukand not worth caring about04:52
neuralisrobertj: quite honestly, an easy, approachable way to turn it on from the networkmanager menu would more or less completely satisfy me, at least to begin with.04:52
ZdraKeybuk: I think nobody will care because nobody will know that ubuntu can discover services automatically...04:52
neuralisrobertj: almost certainly you won't get more into edgy; edgy+1 is debatable again, contingent on audits, etc being done.04:53
KeybukI'd like a generic "service discovery" gubbins to turn on/off things like avahi, cups browsing, bluetooth, irda, etc.04:53
Keybukif it's easy to find and use, people will discover very quickly04:53
mjg59Bluetooth has a strong distinction between discovery and listening04:53
tsengthe service manager is pretty easy to use in gnome-system-tools04:53
neuralisKeybuk: what's the latest story with networkmanager? i didn't pay too much attention in paris. are we planning to actually install it by default?04:53
Keybukmjg59: aye, I think the pattern works well for avahi too04:53
Keybukneuralis: we are not04:54
mjg59Keybuk: Not really04:54
mjg59Bluetooth discovery is a per-connection thing - you don't opportunistically look for Bluetooth devices04:54
Keybukmjg59: sorry, I mean the pattern works well for dns-sd04:54
Keybukavahi allegedly doesn't implement them separately04:54
robertjWith bluetooth the likelyhood that an attacker is in a 30" proximity is somewhat less than someone being on your dorm-floor with an infected computator04:54
mjg59The protocol doesn't really allow them to be implemented separately04:54
Keybukwhy not?  doing dns service discovery is distinct from announcing your own services04:55
mjg59No, because you don't do dns-sd just when you're specifically looking for something - you opportunistically pick up announcements as well04:55
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mjg59Bluetooth has a protocol-level timeout for service discovery04:55
mjg59Which dns-sd doesn't seem to04:55
neuralisrobertj: i'll take a 15-minute look at the avahi source today, to get a super-general feel for the security.04:56
mjg59If it did, there'd be much less of a problem04:56
pittineuralis: I did that a while ago, btw, and also talked with upstream04:56
jdubKeybuk: multicast dns-sd != unicast dns-sd04:56
pittiI pointed him to an integer overflow or two, which he promptly fixed04:56
neuralispitti: what did you think about the rest?04:56
pittiin general, the code look quite well04:56
robertjneuralis: thanks, please grafitti the spec page when done ;)04:57
pittiit's carefully written to not cause overflows etc., but I do not vouch for the higher-level threats04:57
pittilike, stealing files from other people, that sort04:57
pittiI didn't audit the protocol at all04:57
neuralispitti: were you satisfied with the privilege separation that they do, and such?04:57
pittiI just checked for the usual suspects (malloc, arrays, etc.)04:58
mjg59pitti: That's presumably more a function of the applications using it rather than avahi itself?04:58
neuralispitti: well, the protocol isn't avahi's, it's standardized, right? so it's a layer7 matter.04:58
pittimjg59: well, the daemon opens a port, thus potentially you can abuse it to read anything avahid can04:58
pittias I said, I just looked at the code to get a feeling for the cautiousness04:58
pittiI have never used avahi nor checked the network application layer04:59
pittineuralis: privsep> that looked quite well, running as non-root in a chroot, IIRC04:59
robertjpitti: http://avahi.org/wiki/SecurityConsiderations <- that was written for Ubuntu & then posted up genearlly05:00
pittihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportAvahi has that list, too05:00
neuralispitti: okay, i'll take a brief look at some of the higher-level things that you didn't look at originally05:00
neuralispitti: if it's a non-root process in a chroot, and the outside helper is sufficiently paranoid, that's a rather secure combination; i could be convinced not to oppose the policy amendment on security grounds05:01
pittineuralis: agreed05:04
neuralispitti: cool. i'll report findings to -devel later today.05:04
neuralisrobertj: --^05:04
pittineuralis: the thing that frightens me most about enabling it by default is that it might allow outsiders to see data and files which the user never intended to share05:07
pittineuralis: maybe that's just my wrong understanding of how avahi works, I didn't yet find the time to deal with it05:07
epxdns-sd can't share files, AFAIK05:08
Amaranthpitti: you have to explicitly turn on sharing in the individual applications05:09
Amaranthpitti: like music sharing in rhythmbox, you have to go into the preferences and turn it on05:09
epxdns-sd just 'shares' smal TXT records about services, it is way less powerful than upnp to expose things05:10
Amaranthall they should get by default from your computer is the fact that there is a computer there and the name of the computer05:10
shackandns-sd is just a protocol to publish services, sharing files could be a concern IFF the user installs a service to share files which advises its existence on the network via avahi05:10
neuralispitti: yeah, that's what i plan to look at.05:11
neuralispitti: i think we should be in the clear about it, based on what i remember reading of the apple docs on this a long time ago, but i'll look at it again.05:12
shackanavahi by default doesn't do much more than listen what services other people made available on the network05:12
robertjpitti: as an applied use case - if you have Avahi instalelled by default you will see other Music Shares in Rhythmbox but must enable Music Sharing in Rhythmbox05:13
robertjpitti: it's purely an advertising endeavour. The idea is that it tells the world that you are sharing as a side-effect of the actual sharing itself which is handled elsewhere05:14
pittirobertj: I see; thanks for the heads-up05:15
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robertjpitti: this does lead to issues that end-users consider "security problems." For instance graduate students are able to locate the IP printer in the faculty closet & print to it. 05:17
neuralisrobertj: that's not a security problem, that's tuition reimbursement :)05:17
robertjthink of it as a scholarship for people with an emphasis in computers05:18
Amaranthrobertj: how could avahi let them find that printer?05:18
Amaranthrobertj: unless that printer advertises itself05:18
robertjAmaranth: it does05:18
robertjNew HPs advertise that way05:18
Amaranthrobertj: that's a SEP :P05:19
AmaranthSomebody Else's Problem05:19
robertjOh, of course. Just be on the look-out for that.05:19
neuralisok, i'm about to go grab some food.05:20
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neuralisrobertj: you're getting your audit, now take it easy and let -devel and #-devel think about other things than avahi for a bit.05:21
robertjplanned on it :)05:24
robertji'm already looking at seb128's request for a bug at services applet05:25
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pittiKeybuk: do you know what's wrong with our buildds?05:31
pitti(why they went on strike)05:31
Keybukpitti: I don't05:32
Keybukare they still on strike?05:32
Keybukthe only things Pending Build are security and backports05:33
dholbachGloubiboulga: you will need to rebuild xfce4-terminal against the new libvte-dev05:34
pittiKeybuk: there should be a thousand things waiting to be built05:35
Keybukpitti: there aren't05:35
Keybukthere's 1,350 things in dep-wait05:35
pittiKeybuk: ah, ok :)05:36
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KeybukMissing Dependencies python-setuptools05:36
pittiKeybuk: many of them waiting for python-support or so?05:36
Kamionbet they just need new processing05:36
pittiyep, gnutls13 binaries are missing as well, but probably for the same reason05:36
Kamionoh, python-setuptools needs to be promoted to main I suppose?05:37
Kamionpitti: your call05:37
=== pitti reviews
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KamionWBNI python-support built05:38
KamionKeybuk: python-support is in "no builds recorded" and all the buildds are idle - that can't be right05:39
pittisame for gnutls05:39
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pittior pkg-create-dbgsym05:39
ompaulwrong place05:40
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KeybukKamion: yeah, that one's odd05:40
pittiKamion: the only reverse dependency of python-setuptools is celementtree, so that is hardly the reason for The Big Lock05:41
Keybukpitti: no builds have even been attempted yet05:41
Keybukso it won't yet know it's in dep-wait05:41
pittiKamion: nevertheless, p-setuptools is fine for main for me05:41
robertjseb128: Shares admin does come from gst right?05:49
robertjerr not Shares, Services setting05:49
robertjIt's not listed as a component on bugzilla05:49
robertjafter thinking about it more, I recommending that there be a list of "essential system services" (basically everything installed by default) that are hidden unless users check a "View system services" checkbox05:50
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robertjseb128: sound reasonable? The idea would be to get it very bare-looking so that at some point we could say "lets add more informatin about the selected service, links to logs, a configure button, etc."05:53
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seb128robertj: gnome-system-tools, runlevel-admin05:54
seb128robertj: on bugzilla.gnome05:54
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robertjgnome bug 34656005:55
UbugtuGnome bug 346560 in runlevel-admin "visual cleanup for Services dialog" [Enhancement,Unconfirmed]  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34656005:55
seb128robertj: we discussed that, upstream opinion is that it should only list services that are installed and you might be likely to change (ie: not dbus by example)05:55
robertjyeah, even though system logging _could_ be disabled...for most people it's not a use-case05:55
seb128robertj: thank you, I've subscribed to the bug, let's see what he says about it05:56
robertjoh yeah, and the dialog needs to be wider if we can swing it;)05:56
robertj(pork-barrel bug-filing)05:56
mdzdoko: will you take care of the bash and zlib merges?05:58
robertjseb128: I will volunteer that OS X has a Services admin utility that succeeds in being profoundly useless05:58
pittimdz: good morning05:58
mdzpitti: I am not here05:59
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pittioh, I hate it when I talk to illusions :)05:59
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ograpitti, stop licking on frogs then :)06:01
ograthat helps a lot :)06:01
robertjseb128: and OS X server has a seperate one for Net-facing services where you can actually do some managing that is ugly (although it doesn't need to be) but functional06:02
pittiKeybuk: did you recently get reports about wrong device permissions? /dev/usblp0 is now always in group root in edgy06:02
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Keybukpitti: yeah, known bug (typo in rules file)06:03
pittiok, great; thanks06:03
KeybukKERNEL="lp" needs to be KERNEL=="lp"06:03
dokomdz: after the half final :-)06:03
mdzdoko: half final?06:03
pittimdz: soccer today :) Germany - Italy06:03
dokosemi final? anyway, Italy <->Germany06:03
pittisemifinal, or so06:03
Keybukwoo!  now the only things in new-source output are things that look like they've been in Ubuntu in the past06:04
Keybukelmo: don't suppose we have the historic katie removals.txt around anywhere?06:04
elmoKeybuk: sure it's on jackass?06:04
Keybukelmo: I have no account on jackass06:04
pittiKeybuk: I have06:05
elmoit's in drescher:~james/ now too06:05
Keybukelmo: should I have one?06:05
elmoKeybuk: no06:07
elmojackass is only used for security06:07
elmowhich AFAIK is just pitti and infinity06:08
Keybukwhat does "ROM" mean in removals.txt, btw?06:08
elmoRequest Of Maintainer06:09
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elmothere should be a legend at the top06:09
elmoor if not, there will be at the top of http://ftp-master.debian.org/removals.txt06:09
Keybukwe seem to just use NBS now :)06:09
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mswKeybuk: the == thing has bitten me more than once...06:12
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hungerAny kernel people around? I get oopses with the 2.6.17 series in edgy.07:15
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hungerThe OOps is attached to #51384.07:16
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highvoltagegoodnight jsgotangco 07:43
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pygijdub, around this time ? :)08:11
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slomoKeybuk: hi, please move libvisual to main. the main inclusion report was approved by pitti yesterday08:23
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simosxhi there09:26
bddebianHi simosx09:26
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iriefrankI'm trying to create a patch that changes a default gconf setting for epiphany-extensions, where can I find a schema file or equivalent?09:37
iriefrankhow are gconf settings set when installing a .deb?  I'm sorry, this is my first patch09:37
sladeniriefrank: calls in  postinst  to  gconftool-209:39
iriefrankso is there somewhere in CVS where there is a file with default gconf values?09:41
iriefrankthanks sladen09:41
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sladeniriefrank: have a lookin   /var/lib/dpkg/info/epiphany.postinst09:43
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iriefranki see calls to schemas in the epiphany-browser.postinst but there is no postinst file for epiphany-exensions09:46
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iriefranksladen: what about  /epiphany-extensions/include/ephy-prefs.h09:50
iriefrankthat seems to contain gconf settings09:50
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sladeniriefrank: you can neither add a postinst file, or workout what it's actually doing in ephy-prefs.h and see if it makes sense to add your extensions there09:52
sladeniriefrank: iwj may know how to add your gconf-overrides WRT to firefox09:53
Kamions/neither/either/ surely09:53
iriefranksladen: thanks09:55
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sladenKamion: affirmative09:59
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BenMare any of you who might know stuff  about glibc packaging here?10:01
simiraBenM: Mithrandir might know a thing or two10:02
BenMok,so i'm looking at /usr/lib/gconv/gconv-modules.cache10:03
BenMit seems this is a cache for /usr/lib/gconv/gconv-modules10:03
BenMthere are 60kb some of allocations caused by reading the gconv-modules10:03
BenMwhich seems to be potentially avoided by the .cache file, which ubuntu doesn't have10:03
BenMsomebody on fc5 reports having that file10:04
Kamionrunning iconvconfig should create it I think10:07
BenMso, that saves 70kb of mallocs10:09
BenMfor most gnome programs10:09
Kamionshould be possible to run it in the postinst10:10
BenMwant me to file a bug10:10
Kamionand make sure it gets removed in the prerm or so10:10
KamionI'm not a glibc maintainer, but it sounds like a good idea to me FWIW; yes, filing a bug would be sensible10:11
Kamionjbailey wrote the iconvconfig man page so he should know about it10:11
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KamionBenM: yeah, I can see the difference in an strace10:14
BenMin valgrind it's even more obvious :-)10:14
Kamionany idea of the memory saving across the whole desktop?10:15
BenMwell, every program that uses gnome_program_init seems to make use of it10:15
BenMa really easy test would be to reboot and see how many procs mmapd that file10:16
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BenMone issue, the stack trace is:10:17
BenM==14654==    by 0x429146A: gnome_program_parse_args (in /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0.1401.0)10:17
BenM==14654==    by 0x4291BC7: (within /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0.1401.0)10:17
BenM==14654==    by 0x4291ED8: gnome_program_init (in /usr/lib/libgnome-2.so.0.1401.0)10:17
BenMit's possible that popt using programs avoid this10:17
BenM              1272 kb private dirty10:18
BenM              1188 kb private dirty10:18
BenMthat's a before/after for me10:18
Kamionone process?10:18
BenMmultiply that by 10? 20?10:19
Kamion$ sudo grep -l gconv /proc/*/maps | wc -l10:20
Kamionmight be a reasonable approximation10:20
bddebianHmm, are we going to have xutils-dev in Edgy?10:22
BenMi could just kill X10:22
BenMthat'd get most of the data10:22
BenMhold on10:22
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Kamionbddebian: xutils-dev |  1:1.0.2-3 |      unstable | source, alpha, amd64, arm, hppa, i386, ia64, m68k, mips, mipsel, powerpc, s390, sparc10:23
Kamionbddebian: so I'd guess so10:23
bddebianHmm.  Should I wait on cernlib merge then?  It was build-depping xutils-dev which apparently wasn't in dapper?10:24
BenM[bmaurer@omega ~] $ grep gconv-modules.cache /proc/*/maps -l | wc -l10:25
crimsunyou can either merge it by hand by adding the necessary b-ds, which should be imake10:25
crimsunor you can wait10:25
bddebianWhat is preferred?10:25
crimsunI take the "clear the merge list ASAP" approach10:26
bddebianAnd why wasn't xutils-dev synced/merged already?10:26
Kamionbddebian: I'd wait10:26
Kamionbecause otherwise we just introduce diffs unnecessarily10:26
Kamionbddebian: because our new X maintainer is just getting up to speed10:27
bddebianKamion: So should I file a sync request bug on LP and put "After xutils-dev makes it in"?  Or just do nothing?10:27
KeybukKamion: btw, I've put the sync-blacklist file into bzr10:27
Keybukand tidied it up rather a lot10:27
Keybukbddebian: do nothing10:28
Kamionbddebian: if it can be synced now, it can just dep-wait10:28
Kamionso a sync request would be fine IM10:28
KamionKeybuk: thanks10:28
=== bddebian shoots himself
Kamionbddebian: syncs are harmless if they won't build yet :-) but if you want to test it before requesting the sync, then wait10:29
BenMman, this looks nice, about 1.5 MB on startup10:29
BenMprobably a bit more once apps are launched10:29
Kamionassuming that's the only necessary diff from Debian10:29
KamionBenM: nice!10:29
bddebianKamion: Well I usually like to make sure something "works" before I request a sync.  I get in enough trouble as it is :-)10:29
Kamionmight be worth trying in a non-English locale, just to make sure it still works ...10:29
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KeybukKamion: sync won't work :)  xutils is blacklisted10:30
KamionKeybuk: sync of cernlib not xutils10:31
KeybukKamion: oh, sorry, duh :p10:31
bddebianKeybuk: Why is X blacklisted?10:31
bddebianErr xutils10:31
Keybukbddebian: because it's going to come in together10:31
Kamionbddebian: because we know it all needs manual love and attention10:31
Kamionand careful ordering10:31
bddebianGoddamn I hate being useless10:32
rodarvusbddebian, debian xutils is quite different from ours (for now)10:33
bddebianrodarvus: Aye, I know10:34
Keybukthat's why it's blacklisted, to prevent us picking it by accident via a sync10:34
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bddebianHello pygi10:39
pygihey bddebian :)10:39
BenMopen("/usr/lib/locale/locale-archive", O_RDONLY|O_LARGEFILE) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)10:43
BenMopen("/usr/share/locale/locale.alias", O_RDONLY) = 310:43
BenMthat looks fishy10:43
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jdubBenC: ping10:52
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Mithrandirlifeless: you played a bunch around with opensync, didn't you?11:08
lifelessyes, I package libopensync11:08
Mithrandirlifeless: doesn't seem to be in dapper?  Will be in edgy?11:09
lifelessno, not in dapper, no way was it suitable11:09
lifelessupstream are being slow doing next release11:09
Mithrandirok, do you have the packages somewhere?  I'd love to play with it now that I got a phone which should be able to sync over *11:10
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lifelessMithrandir: its in edgy11:10
lifelessjust pull the package ;)11:10
Mithrandiroh, cool.11:10
MithrandirI'll take a look at that, then.11:10
jdubknown b0rkage with atheros in edgy's 2.6.17?11:13
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sivangKeybuk: Will you take a look at +spec/make-free-space-wizard and let me know what it's missing to be approved? (I just read the TB meeting backlog)11:14
sivangiwj: thanks for your fixes and approval for home-user-backup11:15
bluefoxicyKeybuk:  you got a little time?11:17
bddebianIs CLK_TCK from time.h deprecated?11:18
jdubhrm, ok, there's some funny module ordering problems with atheros11:20
Keybukbluefoxicy: not right now11:20
Keybuksivang: not right now11:20
pygijdub, you here finally? :P11:20
jdubpygi: hi11:20
bluefoxicyKeybuk:  hrm, I'll try later then.11:20
pygijdub, hi hi, you have a sec?11:20
jdubpygi: very early morning here, been jetlagged after guadec - expect the unexpected.11:20
pygijdub, oki, pm/ed you11:22
jdubpygi: quick - gotta have breakfast11:22
pygijdub, just you go eat, its not urgent11:23
jdubpygi: if it's private, mail it, if it's not, here is fine11:23
pyginot private...11:23
pygiwas just wondering where is that conference in asutralia, to see if I could try to attend11:23
pygieh, not where*11:23
pygisorry, when*11:23
jdubjan 15-20, 2007 - as stated on the website...11:24
pygiuh, havent seen that :) Thanks :)11:24
pygiuh, havent read the dates :P11:24
pygithanks :)11:24
sivangKeybuk: okay, let me know when you can or I should bug someone else :)11:26
sivangKeybuk: I'm singing off for today, if you do get to review it, email me with any fixes I need to do and/or put remakrs inline the wiki page.11:28
sivangnight all11:29
bddebianGnight sivang11:30
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shayais it just me, or is aptitude seriously broken in edgy?11:38
shayapegging my cpu on startup with "Initializing package states"11:38
pygishaya, everything is seriously broken in edgy :P11:39
shayanot quite true11:39
shayafiling a bug11:40
shayaand filed11:41
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zulKeybuk: can you check up on kernel-package, it got accepted into edgy but i dont think its in the archive yet11:43
Keybukzul: not right now11:44
Kamionkernel-package | 9.001ubuntu15 |          edgy | all11:44
Kamionkernel-package | 9.001ubuntu16 |          edgy | source11:44
Kamionprobably just blocked on the buildd queue being fixed11:45
Kamion(which Keybuk is sorting out)11:45
zulah ok...thanks11:45
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Keybukso 500 in needsbuild, 1258 in depwait11:58
elmodoes gnome-cups-icon randomly leak memory like it was going out of fashion for anyone else?12:06

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