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nixternaljjesse: Ubuntu Packaging Guide - I have been working with imbrandon on some stuff, and he has been showing me around packaging a little big more...with this, I have noticed their could be some updates made to the guide02:36
nixternalhow should i present those updates?02:36
LaserJocktalk to me about it :-)02:38
nixternalalso, earlier some of the motu's were seen stating that they would like to see maybe 2 version of a packaging guide, 1 for beginners and one for advanced...beginners wouldn't have chroot information, as it might be to much for a beginner, plus something about wanting them to learn02:38
nixternalLaserJock: i thought so02:38
crimsunmake svn diffs, send them to the list02:38
nixternalLaserJock: when i have them all noted, i will pass on the information to you then02:38
crimsunbeginners /must/ have chroot info.02:38
nixternalok crimsun, i will definately listen to you on that type of stuff, as you are a freakin' master of it all!!!!   thanks crimsun02:39
LaserJocknixternal: there is a bit of a balance between getting beginners to want to package and not lowering the bar *too* low02:39
nixternali understand02:39
crimsunwhether that chroot info is an sbuilder or pbuilder is up for discussion, but we definitely do /not/ want beginners polluting their daily environment.02:39
LaserJockanyway, if you have suggestions go ahead and throw them on the -docs mailing list02:40
LaserJockwe're open to suggestions for sure02:40
nixternalcrimsun, if im not mistaken, doesn't pbuilder build the chroot for them?02:40
crimsunelse they risk experiencing what we just went through in Debian Sid's alsa-lib, which Ubuntu managed to sidestep because we do source-only uploads.02:40
crimsunnixternal: yes02:40
crimsunnixternal: my point being that some sort of chroot has to be part of the initial phase.02:41
nixternalthe only thing i didn't run across in the packaging guide, and imbrandon brought it to my attention, is that after building a package with pbuilder, you should do a 'pbuilder clean' 02:41
jsgotangcosend diffs to list!02:41
LaserJockpbuilder clean?02:41
=== nixternal signs jsgotangco up for every mailing list in the world!!!
crimsunclean is not necessary. The only thing that's saved are the deb packages, which are cached. Everything else is blown away.02:42
jsgotangconixternal: you have no idea02:42
nixternalyes LaserJock, as it cleans out the previous chroot, I really am not 100% on that though LaserJock02:42
LaserJockit doesn't02:42
nixternaloh im sure i do jsgotangco, if i remember correctly you are a bug list sicko02:42
LaserJockthe point of the pbuilder is that the chroot environment stays clean02:43
nixternalLaserJock: so after you build a package with pbuilder, you can go right back and build another package w/o cleaning?02:43
nixternalexcellent LaserJock!!!02:49
crimsunnow if you use --save-after-login or --save-after-exec, that's a different matter worth footnoting.02:49
crimsunI highly doubt that was the context, however.02:49
LaserJockpbuilder update will freshen up the chroot, but other then that you really never change the chroot much02:49
nixternali heard LaserJock / crimsun that if you use a chroot, you have to rm -rf /var/chroot and rebuild, is this true?02:49
crimsunif you pollute your chroot, yes02:49
LaserJockbut then you probably want to use pbuilder anyway02:49
crimsunthat's why pbuilder/sbuild are preferred02:49
nixternalok, that was something i thought should be added to the appendix where the chroot information is for building and using02:49
nixternalis that a good hmm or a bad one?02:49
LaserJockwell, I don't think you want to be blowing away your chroot all the time02:49
LaserJockyou set up a chroot if you want to "work" in a different environment02:49
nixternalLaserJock: i have no idea on exactly how the chroot works, as I haven't messed with building packages in at least 8 years02:49
LaserJockhehe, np02:49
nixternalplus, i was doing rpm stuff back then ;(02:49
nixternali was lovin' the yast back then ;)02:49
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nixternalso would it make sense to remove the chroot information from the appendix?02:49
nixternalor edit it letting the new packagers know that it isn't for the faint of heart, and requires work02:49
nixternalhiya mdke02:49
jsgotangcohonestly, the chroot part is essential IMO if you want to advance further02:50
jsgotangcolike crimsun said before packaging requires a bit of sophistication on the part of the end user and there are some assumptions involved with the skill level02:50
nixternalwell if chroot was essential then, shouldn't there be more to it, besides just building the chroot itself...like how to use it, build against it and what not?02:51
nixternalor at least links to where people could go for more information02:51
jsgotangcosure bear in mind, the packaging guide team was basically LaserJock =)02:52
nixternalpg. 57-58 in the appendix is chroot, and it just says here is how you build it and thats it02:52
jsgotangcoit does have some cruft and loose ends, but for a v1 release, its nice02:52
jsgotangcoso diffs matter02:52
crimsunI'm not convinced it has to say more02:53
nixternalno, don't get me wrong, i am glad this guide is here, as i am learning greatly from it02:53
crimsunWe don't want to drown the user 02:53
jsgotangcoa more comprehensive guide would be debian policy and n-m definitely02:53
nixternali understand crimsun, but someone who is new that reads it, goes "ok, i have a chroot, now what"02:53
crimsunand there's a clear indication that there are other resources for familiarising oneself with chroots02:53
nixternalat least give them links for more02:53
jsgotangcoOMG yelp can now render glossterms02:57
jsgotangcoand footnotes!02:57
crimsunwell, I suppose one could link to section 8.6.35 in the Debian Reference02:58
crimsun[http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tips.en.html] 02:58
crimsunnixternal: in any case, thank you very much for the feedback.03:03
LaserJocknixternal: that's why I put pbuilder up front and dchroot in the appendix03:05
LaserJockpbuilder is a "must" really03:05
nixternalnp crimsun...i am loving the ease of pbuilder03:06
nixternalthats for sure03:06
LaserJockand so I tried to make it as clear and easy to get going03:06
LaserJockperhaps I should put more use cases in03:06
nixternalLaserJock: it is very clear and easy..as i haven't had any problems, except at times i want to hop right in w/o reading or researching first ;)03:06
nixternalLaserJock: as i go through it more, i am making notes in my print, and i will share them with you if i feel they might be important for others to know03:07
LaserJockwell, so far I haven't been able to succed with "hop in where ever you like and it will be crystal clear" :-)03:07
LaserJocknixternal: for sure03:07
nixternalhehe..there is no hopping in, you have to read through it at least once to understand it, then go through with the execution part03:07
nixternal--basetgz is the only thing i could see with maybe a little bit more of an explanation. maybe a quick view as to show how to build for instance, a dapper and an edgy environment03:10
jsgotangcohoray for lp+bzr integration03:23
LaserJockheck yeah03:24
jsgotangcoi created a new product and pushed a branch the latency for publishing is 1 day03:24
jsgotangcoand its less than 500k file03:25
LaserJockjsgotangco: yeah, I haven't been using it to publish yet because of the 1 day latency thing03:33
LaserJockI heard it's going to get better soonish though03:33
jsgotangcooh i just had to create one out of necessity because of a project03:34
jsgotangcoclient has been bugging me for it03:34
jsgotangcoits nice to work for a UN project but frankly, its a bit of a mess as well03:35
LaserJockwhat do you do?03:37
jsgotangcomostly docbook work03:40
LaserJockoh, how handy ;-)03:40
jsgotangcoquite tedious03:41
jsgotangcoim not negotiating for an extension ;)03:41
LaserJockhmm, I didn't know the UN did that sort of thing03:42
jsgotangcoits very specific to the asian region03:44
jsgotangcoit wont even contract/hire people that are not from the region03:44
LaserJockseems kind of odd03:44
LaserJockyou would think people all over the world would need it03:45
jsgotangcothat's true, but its a growing initiative if its successful in AP, i would think it will expand 03:46
jsgotangcodepends on the UNDP though03:46
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Burgundaviahey Madpilot07:58
Burgundaviayou just get in from work?07:58
Madpilothi Burgundavia 07:58
Madpilotno, was at FolkFest07:59
Burgundaviaah, cool07:59
tonyyarussoSounds like my family.  "Hey, we're related and all (and even live together), but where the heck were you again?"08:04
Burgundaviawe don't live together at least08:05
Burgundaviathat would violate the 3m rule of IRC08:05
tonyyarussoThat makes it far less silly.08:05
tonyyarusso3m rule?08:05
Burgundavia3 metre rule08:06
Madpilot"People within three metres of each other should just talk, not use IRC to communicate"?08:06
tonyyarusso...does that apply to MSN messenging too?08:06
tonyyarusso'cause I'm pretty sure my roommate and I broke it then.08:08
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Burgundaviahmm, that is excited, I muted myself in #ubuntu-ca08:18
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Burgundaviajenda: you wanted to speak with robitaille?08:22
jsgotangcohmm i found something weird in docbook or im just not familiar with how books are made08:23
robitaillejenda,  I'm here.  And your meeting will be on the Fridge shortly :)08:23
nixternalwheee..another meeting !!!08:29
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Burgundaviawhy is it the teams that produce the least spend the most amount of time talking about leadership?08:36
=== nixternal snickers at that comment
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: Well, that actually sort of makes sense.  Once the leadership's in place and you don't need to talk about it anymore, that is when you will be more effective at production.  That being why the leadership was necessary.08:37
tonyyarussoSeems logical anyway...08:37
Burgundaviabut if you look at the successful teams, the leadership has grown organically, without too much concern about who was in charge08:38
tonyyarussoNot sure that it's a cause-effect kind of thing, more a correlation.08:38
tonyyarussoThose teams that have naturally evolving leadership will also be those that are good at producing content.08:39
Burgundaviano idea myself, just a comment08:39
tonyyarussoThose that struggle on that front probably struggle elsewhere too.08:39
Burgundaviafor that matter, I really need to start producing content for the marketing team08:39
nixternalBurgundavia is 100% right on that, i know who i need to report stuff to on the doc team...although they got tired of me doing it..and nobody ever told me, hey he is in charge, or he is in charge..actually doc team is nothing but a bunch of fearless leaders now that i look at it08:40
tonyyarussoI know I have one thing floating around - just some text though - I'm not a very AV kinda guy.08:40
nixternalyou have Burg, locopilot, mr.east, the laserdude, jsgotchicago, and a few more as i scan the users list to the right08:40
Burgundaviawe have all been here for a while and have fallen quite comfortably into things which we do well08:41
Burgundaviamakes it easier for us to absorb new people08:41
bimberi_i wonder if it's related to how visible and asessable a teams deliverables are08:42
MadpilotDocTeam is much more 'organic' than, say, ArtTeam - in other words, we don't have sabdfl riding us right now :)08:42
Burgundaviaart team is pretty clear08:42
Madpilotmorning mdke_ 08:42
nixternalMadpilot: right now, no, but i think soon!08:42
Burgundaviamorning mdke_08:42
nixternalmorning mdke_08:43
nixternalmr.east himself08:43
jendarobitaille: ah thanks ;)08:47
jendarobitaille: Actually I wanted to ask about MeetingLogs on the wiki - do you do that, and does one have to do something in particular to get a log up there?08:49
jenda(Once the meeting has been scheduled and posted on the fridge etc.)08:49
mvirkkilmdke_: morning08:52
mvirkkilmdke_: I see you've been testing out the wiki :) 08:52
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: So I have a Q? about the "Official Ubuntu Book" - how does it differ from system documentation like the Ubuntu Desktop Guide?  (In other words, what might make it worth twenty-odd bucks to me?)08:53
mdke_mvirkkil: sort of.08:53
robitaillejenda,  I'm usually the one that do those manually when I have time.    But you are free to add your logs (or any meeting logs) to the wiki.08:53
Burgundaviatonyyarusso: it was written by me?08:53
jendarobitaille: OK, I'll look into it.08:53
Burgundaviatonyyarusso: in all seriousness, it does cover a great deal more than the desktop guide08:53
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: What sorts of things?  What's the target audience?  Does it have screenshots unlike the others?08:54
Burgundaviatonyyarusso: lots more hard stuff plus soft stuff like what is Ubuntu, etc.08:54
mdke_I'd say the target audience is more for those new to Ubuntu08:54
Burgundaviatarget audience is a new Ubuntu users, either someone who came from another Linux distro or Windows08:55
mdkealthough, I haven't seen a copy yet *growl*08:55
BurgundaviaI have seen printers proofs08:55
mdkeoh, it isn't out yet?08:56
mdkeno wonder08:56
tonyyarussoI'm not sure I need it, but am half considering getting it to lend to friends if I can convince any of them to try Ubuntu.08:56
Burgundaviafor that it is quite good08:56
mdkeman the marketing team does a lot of talking08:56
BurgundaviaI am probably going to get my hands on a bunch of copies and get it into the local library08:56
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tonyyarussoDo we have a full table of contents available somewhere?  book-toc.html in Examples looks like just the three sample chapters.08:57
bimberi_i'll (hopefully) be getting a free copy :)08:57
=== bimberi_ submitted a recipe
tonyyarussobimberi_: For?08:57
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bimberitonyyarusso: what to do if you forget your password08:58
tonyyarussobimberi: ...cry?  No, I assume it involves recovery mode or some such thing.08:58
tonyyarussoAnd then buy some Post-Its.08:58
bimberitonyyarusso: you got it - recovery mode08:59
Burgundaviaanyway, I have to crash, need to work tomorrow08:59
mdkegrrr work08:59
tonyyarussobimberi: Shoulda thrown step two in there too.  (My dad's a 3Mer)08:59
tonyyarussomdke: Do you know where I can get a ful TOC?09:00
mdketonyyarusso: I've got a very old one from when I was reviewing it, I'll mail it if it can be of use. I believe it changed after that though09:00
bimberitonyyarusso: it's on amazon - not sure if there's a TOC though09:01
tonyyarussomdke: Well, better than nothing I guess, sure.09:01
tonyyarussoSpeaking of Amazon..the DVDs for $10 are tempting too...09:02
tonyyarussomdke: (You can /info me I believe)09:03
tonyyarussoOh wait, nm.  Not on Freenode :P09:03
tonyyarussoHey, another idea for the birthday wishlist - gotta start building that now.09:07
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nixternal_g'nite all09:25
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Plug_ /sb end10:22
Plug_(oops, hello :)10:22
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blaqhey quick suggestion. In the website doc section http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch04s02.html can someone add something about running the dvd script needing the package 'dpkg-dev' installed?11:49
blaqtook me ages to figure that out because the script couldn't find dpkg-source11:49
blaqand searching for dpkg-source didn't reveal anything11:49
mdkeblaq: it doesn't need that package11:53
blaqit needs deb-source11:57
blaqand as i just found out, debhelper11:57
blaqboth of which weren't installed by default on my system11:58
blaqand which i only was able to figure out through looking through shell scripts11:58
mdkeblaq: i understand what you're saying. But it doesn't.11:58
mdkeI just ran it fine without those packages11:58
mdkethe script simply downloads a package and installs it, no more, no less11:58
blaqwell it needs dpkg-source from somewhere else then11:58
blaqim running a fresh install11:59
mdkeso you need an internet connection, wget, and dpkg11:59
blaqwget looks like it's installed on default install11:59
blaqdpkg obviously is11:59
blaqbut the dpkg-source executable doesn't seem to be11:59
mdkeare you running edgy?12:00
blaqnor the debhelper package12:00
blaqi dont know what edgy is12:00
mdkewhat version of Ubuntu do you have?12:00
blaqdapper kubuntu actually12:00
mdkewell, sorry but you must have some other problem, that script works fine without those packages, as far as I can see12:01
blaqeh well thats just what i've found, thought it might help some newbies with the same problem12:02
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mdkeah, I see12:03
mdkedamn, he left12:03
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Madpilotjust created CategorySecurity on help.u.c/c - seemed like a logical category to have. We should discuss other Cats to add at some point...01:14
Madpilotneed sleep now, though - later, all01:14
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silbsmdke: ping07:45
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nixternalwho's buying lunch today?08:00
jjessei thought you were?08:05
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nixternalargh..i am always buying it08:13
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mdkesilbs: hi08:26
mdkesilbs: (going for dinner now, will check irc when I get back)08:28
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jendaCould anyone host 400 KiB for the Marketing Team? I can't catch any of our own people right now.09:41
crimsuntell me where to download, and I'll give you a URL.09:42
jendacrimsun: ah thanks - one of the MT folks just got back to me, though.09:46
jendaThanks for the offer, though :)09:46
jendacrimsun: sorry to bother again. Seems I lost contact there, and I'm beginning to be in a hurry. You think I could send you a half-meg email i exchange for an URL afterall?10:07
crimsunjenda: sure. crimsun at ubuntu dot com10:10
jendacourse ;) launchpad says it all10:10
crimsunjenda: http://sh.nu/~crimsun/mirror/ubuntu-marketing/10:13
jendathanks a bajillion, crimsun 10:14
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jendaHow do I attach images to the wiki? can't figure that out...10:25
Burgworkjenda, you need to upload them. On the drop down menu10:27
jendaah, thx10:27
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Burgworkhmm, i need a good book about open source for one of my fellow sales reps11:02
BurgworkI hesitate to give him Cathedral/Bazaar11:02
Burgworkgot another idea?11:02
pygiBurgwork, The Success of Open Source?11:08
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Burgworkpygi, that looks good, thanks11:42
pygiBurgwork, :)11:42
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