[02:36] <nixternal> jjesse: Ubuntu Packaging Guide - I have been working with imbrandon on some stuff, and he has been showing me around packaging a little big more...with this, I have noticed their could be some updates made to the guide
[02:36] <nixternal> how should i present those updates?
[02:38] <LaserJock> talk to me about it :-)
[02:38] <nixternal> also, earlier some of the motu's were seen stating that they would like to see maybe 2 version of a packaging guide, 1 for beginners and one for advanced...beginners wouldn't have chroot information, as it might be to much for a beginner, plus something about wanting them to learn
[02:38] <nixternal> LaserJock: i thought so
[02:38] <crimsun> make svn diffs, send them to the list
[02:38] <nixternal> LaserJock: when i have them all noted, i will pass on the information to you then
[02:38] <crimsun> beginners /must/ have chroot info.
[02:39] <nixternal> ok crimsun, i will definately listen to you on that type of stuff, as you are a freakin' master of it all!!!!   thanks crimsun
[02:39] <LaserJock> nixternal: there is a bit of a balance between getting beginners to want to package and not lowering the bar *too* low
[02:39] <nixternal> i understand
[02:39] <crimsun> whether that chroot info is an sbuilder or pbuilder is up for discussion, but we definitely do /not/ want beginners polluting their daily environment.
[02:40] <LaserJock> anyway, if you have suggestions go ahead and throw them on the -docs mailing list
[02:40] <LaserJock> we're open to suggestions for sure
[02:40] <nixternal> crimsun, if im not mistaken, doesn't pbuilder build the chroot for them?
[02:40] <crimsun> else they risk experiencing what we just went through in Debian Sid's alsa-lib, which Ubuntu managed to sidestep because we do source-only uploads.
[02:40] <crimsun> nixternal: yes
[02:41] <jsgotangco> :D
[02:41] <crimsun> nixternal: my point being that some sort of chroot has to be part of the initial phase.
[02:41] <nixternal> the only thing i didn't run across in the packaging guide, and imbrandon brought it to my attention, is that after building a package with pbuilder, you should do a 'pbuilder clean' 
[02:41] <jsgotangco> send diffs to list!
[02:41] <LaserJock> pbuilder clean?
[02:42] <crimsun> clean is not necessary. The only thing that's saved are the deb packages, which are cached. Everything else is blown away.
[02:42] <jsgotangco> nixternal: you have no idea
[02:42] <nixternal> yes LaserJock, as it cleans out the previous chroot, I really am not 100% on that though LaserJock
[02:42] <LaserJock> it doesn't
[02:42] <nixternal> oh im sure i do jsgotangco, if i remember correctly you are a bug list sicko
[02:42] <jsgotangco> :D
[02:42] <nixternal> haha
[02:43] <LaserJock> the point of the pbuilder is that the chroot environment stays clean
[02:43] <nixternal> LaserJock: so after you build a package with pbuilder, you can go right back and build another package w/o cleaning?
[02:49] <LaserJock> yeah
[02:49] <nixternal> excellent LaserJock!!!
[02:49] <crimsun> now if you use --save-after-login or --save-after-exec, that's a different matter worth footnoting.
[02:49] <crimsun> I highly doubt that was the context, however.
[02:49] <LaserJock> pbuilder update will freshen up the chroot, but other then that you really never change the chroot much
[02:49] <nixternal> i heard LaserJock / crimsun that if you use a chroot, you have to rm -rf /var/chroot and rebuild, is this true?
[02:49] <crimsun> if you pollute your chroot, yes
[02:49] <LaserJock> but then you probably want to use pbuilder anyway
[02:49] <crimsun> that's why pbuilder/sbuild are preferred
[02:49] <nixternal> ok, that was something i thought should be added to the appendix where the chroot information is for building and using
[02:49] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:49] <nixternal> is that a good hmm or a bad one?
[02:49] <LaserJock> well, I don't think you want to be blowing away your chroot all the time
[02:49] <LaserJock> you set up a chroot if you want to "work" in a different environment
[02:49] <nixternal> LaserJock: i have no idea on exactly how the chroot works, as I haven't messed with building packages in at least 8 years
[02:49] <LaserJock> hehe, np
[02:49] <nixternal> plus, i was doing rpm stuff back then ;(
[02:49] <nixternal> i was lovin' the yast back then ;)
[02:49] <nixternal> so would it make sense to remove the chroot information from the appendix?
[02:49] <nixternal> or edit it letting the new packagers know that it isn't for the faint of heart, and requires work
[02:49] <nixternal> hiya mdke
[02:50] <jsgotangco> honestly, the chroot part is essential IMO if you want to advance further
[02:50] <jsgotangco> like crimsun said before packaging requires a bit of sophistication on the part of the end user and there are some assumptions involved with the skill level
[02:51] <nixternal> well if chroot was essential then, shouldn't there be more to it, besides just building the chroot itself...like how to use it, build against it and what not?
[02:51] <nixternal> or at least links to where people could go for more information
[02:52] <jsgotangco> sure bear in mind, the packaging guide team was basically LaserJock =)
[02:52] <nixternal> pg. 57-58 in the appendix is chroot, and it just says here is how you build it and thats it
[02:52] <jsgotangco> it does have some cruft and loose ends, but for a v1 release, its nice
[02:52] <jsgotangco> so diffs matter
[02:53] <nixternal> true
[02:53] <crimsun> I'm not convinced it has to say more
[02:53] <nixternal> no, don't get me wrong, i am glad this guide is here, as i am learning greatly from it
[02:53] <crimsun> We don't want to drown the user 
[02:53] <jsgotangco> a more comprehensive guide would be debian policy and n-m definitely
[02:53] <nixternal> i understand crimsun, but someone who is new that reads it, goes "ok, i have a chroot, now what"
[02:53] <crimsun> and there's a clear indication that there are other resources for familiarising oneself with chroots
[02:53] <nixternal> at least give them links for more
[02:57] <jsgotangco> OMG yelp can now render glossterms
[02:57] <jsgotangco> and footnotes!
[02:58] <crimsun> well, I suppose one could link to section 8.6.35 in the Debian Reference
[02:58] <crimsun> [http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/ch-tips.en.html] 
[03:03] <crimsun> nixternal: in any case, thank you very much for the feedback.
[03:05] <LaserJock> nixternal: that's why I put pbuilder up front and dchroot in the appendix
[03:05] <LaserJock> pbuilder is a "must" really
[03:06] <nixternal> np crimsun...i am loving the ease of pbuilder
[03:06] <nixternal> thats for sure
[03:06] <LaserJock> and so I tried to make it as clear and easy to get going
[03:06] <LaserJock> perhaps I should put more use cases in
[03:06] <nixternal> LaserJock: it is very clear and easy..as i haven't had any problems, except at times i want to hop right in w/o reading or researching first ;)
[03:07] <nixternal> LaserJock: as i go through it more, i am making notes in my print, and i will share them with you if i feel they might be important for others to know
[03:07] <LaserJock> well, so far I haven't been able to succed with "hop in where ever you like and it will be crystal clear" :-)
[03:07] <LaserJock> nixternal: for sure
[03:07] <nixternal> hehe..there is no hopping in, you have to read through it at least once to understand it, then go through with the execution part
[03:10] <nixternal> --basetgz is the only thing i could see with maybe a little bit more of an explanation. maybe a quick view as to show how to build for instance, a dapper and an edgy environment
[03:11] <LaserJock> yeah
[03:23] <jsgotangco> horay for lp+bzr integration
[03:24] <LaserJock> heck yeah
[03:24] <jsgotangco> i created a new product and pushed a branch the latency for publishing is 1 day
[03:24] <jsgotangco> hehe
[03:25] <jsgotangco> and its less than 500k file
[03:33] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: yeah, I haven't been using it to publish yet because of the 1 day latency thing
[03:33] <LaserJock> I heard it's going to get better soonish though
[03:34] <jsgotangco> oh i just had to create one out of necessity because of a project
[03:34] <jsgotangco> client has been bugging me for it
[03:35] <jsgotangco> its nice to work for a UN project but frankly, its a bit of a mess as well
[03:37] <LaserJock> what do you do?
[03:40] <jsgotangco> http://www.iosn.net/
[03:40] <jsgotangco> mostly docbook work
[03:40] <LaserJock> oh, how handy ;-)
[03:41] <jsgotangco> quite tedious
[03:41] <jsgotangco> im not negotiating for an extension ;)
[03:42] <LaserJock> hmm, I didn't know the UN did that sort of thing
[03:44] <jsgotangco> its very specific to the asian region
[03:44] <jsgotangco> it wont even contract/hire people that are not from the region
[03:44] <LaserJock> seems kind of odd
[03:45] <jsgotangco> really?
[03:45] <LaserJock> you would think people all over the world would need it
[03:46] <jsgotangco> that's true, but its a growing initiative if its successful in AP, i would think it will expand 
[03:46] <jsgotangco> depends on the UNDP though
[03:46] <LaserJock> yeah
[07:58] <Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
[07:58] <Burgundavia> you just get in from work?
[07:58] <Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
[07:59] <Madpilot> no, was at FolkFest
[07:59] <Burgundavia> ah, cool
[08:04] <tonyyarusso> Sounds like my family.  "Hey, we're related and all (and even live together), but where the heck were you again?"
[08:05] <Burgundavia> we don't live together at least
[08:05] <Burgundavia> that would violate the 3m rule of IRC
[08:05] <tonyyarusso> That makes it far less silly.
[08:05] <tonyyarusso> 3m rule?
[08:06] <Burgundavia> 3 metre rule
[08:06] <Madpilot> "People within three metres of each other should just talk, not use IRC to communicate"?
[08:06] <tonyyarusso> ...does that apply to MSN messenging too?
[08:08] <tonyyarusso> 'cause I'm pretty sure my roommate and I broke it then.
[08:18] <Burgundavia> hmm, that is excited, I muted myself in #ubuntu-ca
[08:19] <Madpilot> oops
[08:22] <Burgundavia> jenda: you wanted to speak with robitaille?
[08:23] <jsgotangco> hmm i found something weird in docbook or im just not familiar with how books are made
[08:23] <robitaille> jenda,  I'm here.  And your meeting will be on the Fridge shortly :)
[08:29] <nixternal> wheee..another meeting !!!
[08:36] <Burgundavia> why is it the teams that produce the least spend the most amount of time talking about leadership?
[08:37] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Well, that actually sort of makes sense.  Once the leadership's in place and you don't need to talk about it anymore, that is when you will be more effective at production.  That being why the leadership was necessary.
[08:37] <tonyyarusso> Seems logical anyway...
[08:38] <Burgundavia> but if you look at the successful teams, the leadership has grown organically, without too much concern about who was in charge
[08:38] <tonyyarusso> True.
[08:38] <tonyyarusso> Not sure that it's a cause-effect kind of thing, more a correlation.
[08:39] <tonyyarusso> Those teams that have naturally evolving leadership will also be those that are good at producing content.
[08:39] <Burgundavia> no idea myself, just a comment
[08:39] <tonyyarusso> Those that struggle on that front probably struggle elsewhere too.
[08:39] <Burgundavia> for that matter, I really need to start producing content for the marketing team
[08:40] <nixternal> Burgundavia is 100% right on that, i know who i need to report stuff to on the doc team...although they got tired of me doing it..and nobody ever told me, hey he is in charge, or he is in charge..actually doc team is nothing but a bunch of fearless leaders now that i look at it
[08:40] <tonyyarusso> I know I have one thing floating around - just some text though - I'm not a very AV kinda guy.
[08:40] <nixternal> you have Burg, locopilot, mr.east, the laserdude, jsgotchicago, and a few more as i scan the users list to the right
[08:41] <Burgundavia> we have all been here for a while and have fallen quite comfortably into things which we do well
[08:41] <nixternal> exactly
[08:41] <Burgundavia> makes it easier for us to absorb new people
[08:42] <bimberi_> i wonder if it's related to how visible and asessable a teams deliverables are
[08:42] <Madpilot> DocTeam is much more 'organic' than, say, ArtTeam - in other words, we don't have sabdfl riding us right now :)
[08:42] <Burgundavia> art team is pretty clear
[08:42] <mdke_> morning
[08:42] <Madpilot> morning mdke_ 
[08:42] <nixternal> Madpilot: right now, no, but i think soon!
[08:42] <Burgundavia> morning mdke_
[08:43] <nixternal> morning mdke_
[08:43] <nixternal> mr.east himself
[08:47] <jenda> robitaille: ah thanks ;)
[08:49] <jenda> robitaille: Actually I wanted to ask about MeetingLogs on the wiki - do you do that, and does one have to do something in particular to get a log up there?
[08:49] <jenda> (Once the meeting has been scheduled and posted on the fridge etc.)
[08:52] <mvirkkil> mdke_: morning
[08:52] <mvirkkil> mdke_: I see you've been testing out the wiki :) 
[08:53] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: So I have a Q? about the "Official Ubuntu Book" - how does it differ from system documentation like the Ubuntu Desktop Guide?  (In other words, what might make it worth twenty-odd bucks to me?)
[08:53] <mdke_> mvirkkil: sort of.
[08:53] <robitaille> jenda,  I'm usually the one that do those manually when I have time.    But you are free to add your logs (or any meeting logs) to the wiki.
[08:53] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: it was written by me?
[08:53] <jenda> robitaille: OK, I'll look into it.
[08:53] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: in all seriousness, it does cover a great deal more than the desktop guide
[08:53] <jenda> thx
[08:54] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: What sorts of things?  What's the target audience?  Does it have screenshots unlike the others?
[08:54] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: lots more hard stuff plus soft stuff like what is Ubuntu, etc.
[08:54] <mdke_> I'd say the target audience is more for those new to Ubuntu
[08:55] <Burgundavia> target audience is a new Ubuntu users, either someone who came from another Linux distro or Windows
[08:55] <mdke> although, I haven't seen a copy yet *growl*
[08:55] <Burgundavia> I have seen printers proofs
[08:56] <mdke> oh, it isn't out yet?
[08:56] <mdke> no wonder
[08:56] <tonyyarusso> I'm not sure I need it, but am half considering getting it to lend to friends if I can convince any of them to try Ubuntu.
[08:56] <Burgundavia> for that it is quite good
[08:56] <mdke> man the marketing team does a lot of talking
[08:56] <Burgundavia> I am probably going to get my hands on a bunch of copies and get it into the local library
[08:57] <tonyyarusso> Do we have a full table of contents available somewhere?  book-toc.html in Examples looks like just the three sample chapters.
[08:57] <bimberi_> i'll (hopefully) be getting a free copy :)
[08:57] <tonyyarusso> bimberi_: For?
[08:58] <bimberi> tonyyarusso: what to do if you forget your password
[08:58] <tonyyarusso> bimberi: ...cry?  No, I assume it involves recovery mode or some such thing.
[08:58] <tonyyarusso> And then buy some Post-Its.
[08:59] <bimberi> tonyyarusso: you got it - recovery mode
[08:59] <Burgundavia> anyway, I have to crash, need to work tomorrow
[08:59] <mdke> grrr work
[08:59] <tonyyarusso> bimberi: Shoulda thrown step two in there too.  (My dad's a 3Mer)
[08:59] <bimberi> hehe
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Do you know where I can get a ful TOC?
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> *full
[09:00] <mdke> tonyyarusso: I've got a very old one from when I was reviewing it, I'll mail it if it can be of use. I believe it changed after that though
[09:01] <bimberi> tonyyarusso: it's on amazon - not sure if there's a TOC though
[09:01] <tonyyarusso> mdke: Well, better than nothing I guess, sure.
[09:02] <tonyyarusso> Speaking of Amazon..the DVDs for $10 are tempting too...
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> mdke: (You can /info me I believe)
[09:03] <mdke> hmm?
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> Oh wait, nm.  Not on Freenode :P
[09:07] <tonyyarusso> Hey, another idea for the birthday wishlist - gotta start building that now.
[09:25] <nixternal_> g'nite all
[09:26] <Madpilot> night
[10:22] <Plug_>  /sb end
[10:22] <Plug_> (oops, hello :)
[10:25] <mdke> hello
[10:25] <matthewrevell> howd
[10:25] <matthewrevell> y
[10:25] <matthewrevell> d'h
[11:49] <blaq> hey quick suggestion. In the website doc section http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch04s02.html can someone add something about running the dvd script needing the package 'dpkg-dev' installed?
[11:49] <blaq> took me ages to figure that out because the script couldn't find dpkg-source
[11:49] <blaq> and searching for dpkg-source didn't reveal anything
[11:53] <mdke> blaq: it doesn't need that package
[11:57] <blaq> it needs deb-source
[11:57] <blaq> erm
[11:57] <blaq> dpkg-source
[11:57] <blaq> and as i just found out, debhelper
[11:58] <blaq> both of which weren't installed by default on my system
[11:58] <blaq> and which i only was able to figure out through looking through shell scripts
[11:58] <mdke> blaq: i understand what you're saying. But it doesn't.
[11:58] <mdke> I just ran it fine without those packages
[11:58] <mdke> the script simply downloads a package and installs it, no more, no less
[11:58] <blaq> well it needs dpkg-source from somewhere else then
[11:59] <blaq> im running a fresh install
[11:59] <mdke> so you need an internet connection, wget, and dpkg
[11:59] <blaq> wget looks like it's installed on default install
[11:59] <blaq> dpkg obviously is
[11:59] <blaq> but the dpkg-source executable doesn't seem to be
[12:00] <mdke> are you running edgy?
[12:00] <blaq> nor the debhelper package
[12:00] <blaq> i dont know what edgy is
[12:00] <mdke> what version of Ubuntu do you have?
[12:00] <blaq> dapper
[12:00] <blaq> dapper kubuntu actually
[12:01] <mdke> right
[12:01] <mdke> well, sorry but you must have some other problem, that script works fine without those packages, as far as I can see
[12:02] <blaq> eh well thats just what i've found, thought it might help some newbies with the same problem
[12:02] <blaq> cheers!
[12:03] <mdke> ah, I see
[12:03] <mdke> damn, he left
[01:14] <Madpilot> just created CategorySecurity on help.u.c/c - seemed like a logical category to have. We should discuss other Cats to add at some point...
[01:14] <Madpilot> need sleep now, though - later, all
[05:01] <nixternal> moins
[05:08] <jsgotangco> halo!
[05:10] <mvirkkil> hi
[05:58] <jsgotangco> goodnight
[07:45] <silbs> mdke: ping
[08:00] <nixternal> who's buying lunch today?
[08:05] <jjesse> i thought you were?
[08:13] <nixternal> argh..i am always buying it
[08:26] <mdke> silbs: hi
[08:28] <mdke> silbs: (going for dinner now, will check irc when I get back)
[09:41] <jenda> Could anyone host 400 KiB for the Marketing Team? I can't catch any of our own people right now.
[09:42] <crimsun> tell me where to download, and I'll give you a URL.
[09:46] <jenda> crimsun: ah thanks - one of the MT folks just got back to me, though.
[09:46] <jenda> Thanks for the offer, though :)
[09:46] <crimsun> k
[10:07] <jenda> crimsun: sorry to bother again. Seems I lost contact there, and I'm beginning to be in a hurry. You think I could send you a half-meg email i exchange for an URL afterall?
[10:10] <crimsun> jenda: sure. crimsun at ubuntu dot com
[10:10] <jenda> course ;) launchpad says it all
[10:11] <jenda> sent
[10:13] <crimsun> jenda: http://sh.nu/~crimsun/mirror/ubuntu-marketing/
[10:14] <crimsun> sec
[10:14] <jenda> thanks a bajillion, crimsun 
[10:25] <jenda> How do I attach images to the wiki? can't figure that out...
[10:27] <Burgwork> jenda, you need to upload them. On the drop down menu
[10:27] <jenda> ah, thx
[11:02] <Burgwork> hmm, i need a good book about open source for one of my fellow sales reps
[11:02] <Burgwork> I hesitate to give him Cathedral/Bazaar
[11:02] <Burgwork> got another idea?
[11:08] <pygi> Burgwork, The Success of Open Source?
[11:42] <Burgwork> pygi, that looks good, thanks
[11:42] <pygi> Burgwork, :)