elmoit's using 37M and I only killed it last week12:07
Burgworkelmo, there is a thread on planet gnome about just that12:07
elmoor #45406 or LP#45406 or whatever gets the stupid bot to trigger12:09
Keybukbug #4540612:09
UbugtuMalone bug 45406 in gnome-cups-manager "memory leak in gnome-cups-icon" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4540612:09
Keybukit actually goes to 128MB or so instantly for me12:10
Keybukthough, curiously, I can't see why in the pmap12:11
BenCjdub: pong12:20
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BurgworkBenC, jdub was talking about an atheros module issue, don;t know if that is why he pinged you12:27
jdubBenC: i had to do some insmodding to get the ath_pci driver dependencies to load correctly - looked like new_wlan was being loaded, which stops (the correct module) wlan and ath_pci from loading12:30
BenCthis is all linux-restricted-modules?12:31
jdubnew_* are madwifi-ng12:32
BenCjdub: is this on edgy or dapper?12:32
jdubthe only lrm stuff is (new_)ath_hal12:32
jdubedgy 2.6.1712:32
BenCok, weird, nothing changed in lrm for 2.6.1712:32
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anibalhow can I add an edgy spec about NFSv4?12:51
LaserJockanibal: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs ?12:52
anibalLaserJock, thank you12:54
Seveasanibal, it's too late for edgy specs, final round of approvals will be in <48 hours12:58
Seveas(doesn't mean you can't work on it for edgy though ;))12:58
neuralisSeveas: it's not too late for uncontroversial specs.12:58
Seveasneuralis, true12:58
Seveasnfsv4 would be a nice thing to have12:59
anibalSeveas, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/nfsv401:16
anibalSeveas, all the package are already in edgy01:16
Seveasanibal, then why a spec?01:16
anibalbecause it will be a good feature for the next release01:17
KeybukI'm confused01:18
Keybukis the spec implemented?01:18
Seveasapparently yes01:18
anibalKeybuk, yep01:18
Seveasanibal, specs generally are use for tracking implementation, writing them after all is done is not too useful 01:19
Keybukanibal: probably doesn't really need one then01:19
Keybukwe tend to use a spec for when we have to do something hard01:19
anibalshould I remove my spec then?01:19
BurgworkKeybuk, the droppage of all the python stuff from -meta. Was that due to the python migration or a policy decision?01:21
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Keybukpolicy decision01:22
Keybukedgy will include a standard python runtime environment, rather than everything python related01:23
Keybukin practice, this is sufficient for everything01:23
Keybuk(and deps drag in anything with synaptic anyway)01:23
LaserJocktoo bad, I enjoyed the "WTF is all of python doing on the install CD" threads ;-)01:24
BurgworkKeybuk, ok, just wondering01:26
Keybuklifeless: biff (sorry it took ages :p  wanted to give the e-mail some brain time)01:28
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jsgotangcogood morning01:36
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neuralisrobertj: ping01:57
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robertjafk for 60 seconds though01:57
neuraliswhat of the avahi tree actually runs as a server?01:58
neuralisjust avahi-daemon?01:58
Riddellit's not really a server01:59
neuralisRiddell: by "server", i mean "listens on a port". i'm being lazy, and don't want to read the whole source.01:59
Riddellyes, only avahi-daemon02:00
Riddelland it doesn't listen on a port such that nmap will find it, for example02:00
robertjneuralis: that's my understanding of it02:00
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neuralisrobertj: do you know if any developers are online?02:25
robertjneuralis: nope, I'd suppose there is probably an #avahi somewhere02:25
neuralisrobertj: i spent half an hour looking at the code. i have some questions, but i'm largely satisfied with what i've seen.02:27
neuralisrobertj: if my concerns were addressed (or shown invalid), i would not oppose a policy exception on security grounds.02:28
robertjany thoughts about the spec itself?02:29
neuralislet me look..02:29
neuralisyeah, i have the link.02:30
neuralispoints 1 and 3 of the implementation plan are debatable.02:31
KeybukI would *highly* recommend your spec includes an alternate plan that did not require an open port policy exception02:32
Keybukotherwise your spec is almost certainly likely to be rejected02:32
robertjKeybuk: that's the whole point of the spec though, there are other non-policy specs out there02:32
neuralisKeybuk: i'm actually warming up to the idea. it's very likely that there's no reason to not grant an exception on security grounds, in which case only things like the slippery slope argument, etc, apply. those are still valid, obviously, but far less potent than a "this is insecure" argument.02:33
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Keybukneuralis: of the three people whose ultimate decision it is, two are unhappy that dhcp requires an open port and would rather that was fixed ... so I really don't think avahi will be granted an exception02:35
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tsengits easy enough to start avahi02:35
tsengthis is like the openssh debate all over again02:35
Keybukright ;)  we don't give the most audited, and self-proclaimed most secure piece of software in the known universe an open port :p02:36
neuralisKeybuk: openssh's security record is terrible.02:36
tsengbecause people audit it non-stop02:36
Keybukneuralis: note "self-proclaimed"02:36
Keybukand that's not a bad thing02:36
Keybukavahi has no security record02:36
neuralisKeybuk: pitti and i independently did brief audits, and were both happy; remember that avahi is a non-root listener running in a chroot with explicitly dropped capabilities.02:37
Keybukgiving avahi an open port is like wandering into a public toilet, kneeling on the floor, dropping your pants, and *hoping* it's not one of the dodgy ones02:37
Keybukneuralis: it communicates with things outside of the jail ... so there is a risk02:38
sladenneuralis: I think you need to right the spec on the basis that the exception will /not/ be granted.  And provide a Plan B, in case an exception /is/ granted.02:38
neuralissladen: it's not my spec. i don't care.02:38
neuralissladen: i don't use avahi.02:38
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Keybuksladen: it's robertj's spec02:38
sladenrobertj: I think you need to right the spec on the basis that the exception will /not/ be granted.  And provide a Plan B, in case an exception /is/ granted.02:39
neuralisKeybuk: the communication is apparently one byte in either direction; i just audited that region of source, and so did pitti some time ago. we were both satisfied.02:39
neuralisKeybuk: in any case, i'll post a summary of my audit to -devel, and after that, i really don't much care.02:39
Keybukneuralis: it does the entire functionality, announcing all shares, etc. in just one byte?02:39
sladenrobertj: at UDS, I AFAICT, the decision from the BOF was to provide a checkbox in the network config to "[x]  Enable Zeroconf on this interface"02:40
Keybukthat's a hell of a compression ration02:40
Keybuk30GB of advertised rhythmbox mp3s ... in one byte? :p02:40
neuralisKeybuk: please read carefully. i'm talking about communication with the helper that lives outside the chroot.02:40
Keybukneuralis: right, and I'm saying that makes zero sense given what the implementation does02:41
Keybukeither the helper has access to the network02:41
sladenrobertj: and a policy that if an application wanted Zeroconf, it cause a dialogue appear offering to enable zeroconf for either "This Session" or "Forever"02:41
Keybukor all network-potential traffic has to pass between them02:41
Keybukin which case, there's an escape from the jail02:41
neuralisKeybuk: dude, are you always this impatient? :)02:41
sladenKeybuk: read, it again.02:41
sladenKeybuk: carefully this time02:42
Keybuksladen: read which?  I'm still reading, and still not seeing anything02:42
Keybukneuralis: yes :P02:42
neuralisKeybuk: the helper will optionally return a R/O fd into the chroot process, which points to one of the static introspection/PID files. other than that, all communication between the two is one-byte commands and one-byte responses.02:42
neuralisKeybuk: the introspection files are likely movable into the chroot, so that portion of the code can be likely dropped outright.02:43
Keybukso it's a reasonably secure network daemon02:43
Keybukthat does not grant it an open port02:43
Keybukbecause we grant *nothing* an open port02:43
sladenKeybuk: AFAICT, the chroot'ed deamon only speaks DBUS and DNS;  and the help outside with godmode only hands in open file-descriptors to the deamon02:44
Keybuksladen: I thought the chroot'd bit did not do dbus?02:44
neuralisno, it does dbus, if you configure it to do dbus.02:44
Keybukso an attacker can compromise the daemon and issue arbitrary dbus commands?02:45
neuralisnot if you tell it to not use dbus.02:45
Keybukwhy would you tell it to use dbus?02:45
neuralisKeybuk: i didn't see a good reason for it, but that's for an avahi developer to answer.02:45
Keybukanyway, this is an increasingly boring conversation02:45
Keybukgiven that avahi is *not* getting an open port02:45
sladenKeybuk: strong words.  never say never.  02:46
neuralisKeybuk: hey, i was going to post my findings to devel and wander off. you pressed the issue.02:46
sladenKeybuk: at least keep people hanging on with a thread of hope for as long as possible before politely shafting them02:46
Keybukneuralis: I just suggested the spec be altered to allow it to have a hope of being approved :)02:47
sladenso, regarding this dbus thing.  Does avahi actually have any point if you can't talk to it.  I was under the impression that that was how one told avahi to do things02:48
neuralisKeybuk: quite honestly, avahi provides (in terms of functionality) a level of convenience that's indispensable to many users; it's not unlike dhcp in that regard. the issue needs to be seriously thought through, especially if security doesn't factor in particularly strongly.02:49
Keybuksecurity does factor into this though02:49
Keybukand as you see, it's a convenience02:49
Keybukusers can turn it on if they want it02:50
neuralisKeybuk: so i'm writing my security mail now, and then you and the rest of the tb bunch can do the thinking, and robertj can do the fanboying. 02:50
Keybukwe have a spec for that02:50
robertjI think I'm done with my chearleeding02:50
Lathiat*reads up*02:52
sladenrobertj: realistically, for Zeroconf we're going to end up with a tick box along the same lines as for Remote Desktop.  "[x]  Share my services"02:55
Lathiatif you cant talk to avahi on dbus02:55
sladenrobertj: or something similar.  The spec needs writing with that in mind, and how exactly to address that in a cross-desktop way02:56
Lathiatits relatively useless for a deskto papplication02:56
neuralisLathiat: then the security breakdown doesn't make sense; the helper should be doing the dbus brokering, and passing in information into the chroot process.02:57
Lathiatand it would do that with what?02:57
Lathiatsomething like d-bus? ;)02:57
neuralisLathiat: uh, exactly how you currently pass in information from the helper?02:58
Keybukneuralis: and then you still have an IPC protocol that the compromised chrooted process can talk to something outside of the chroot02:58
Lathiatneuralis: the daemon basically does 99.9% of the work02:58
Lathiatthe helper just does a few extra bits02:58
neuralisKeybuk: not if it's one-way, or mostly one-way.02:58
neuralisanyway, i really don't care about avahi nearly enough to continue this discussion. :)02:59
Lathiatbut avahi *isnt* one-way02:59
Lathiator mostly one way02:59
Lathiatits very 2 way02:59
Keybukneuralis: but it's not, it's very bi-directional02:59
neuralisKeybuk: yes, clearly, but if the helper is doing the dbus brokering, then it can enforce extremely strict validation on what goes out over dbus, rendering the "someone can do crazy shit on dbus if they break into the chroot daemon" argument moot.03:00
Keybukneuralis: but the helper isn't doing the dbus brokering03:00
Lathiatdbus hsa escurity policies03:00
Lathiatavahi is only allowed to speak on the avahi interface, etc03:00
Lathiatso you cant go sending other dbus messages03:01
neuralisKeybuk: yes, that's why i told lathiat that the current security model isn't right.03:01
Keybukneuralis: also, more to the point, because there is a communication path from the daemon to the helper ... you're now at risk of the helper having an exploit too03:01
Lathiatsounds more complicated and your putting more exploitable code outside the chroot03:01
Lathiatwhere its "less safe" 03:01
Keybukso while chroot, etc. are useful for reducing the security risk; this is certainly not in the "LA LA LA! NO SECURITY RISK HERE! CURVE AROUND THE SCENE OF THE CRIME!"03:02
sladenLathiat: the separation is that you are protecting  *everything*  from stuff hitting the  *network port*.  Everything not coming from the network port wants to stay outside of the process that is talking to the network port.03:02
neuraliswhat sladen said.03:03
Lathiatah, i see03:03
KeybukI'm not passing any judgements on the design of avahi itself, I'm just saying that your comments above that security doesn't factor is completely bogus -- this is a daemon with a high bi-directional interaction with other processes -- no matter how isolated you make it, it is never completely isolated because it can't be by design -- so security *is* a factor03:04
sladenso, the if a daemon *really must* talk to the network, it should do that, and nothing else.  Unfortunately, this makes the daemon a bit useful since that wouldn't include talking to the local machine...03:05
Lathiati just dont see how some other home cookd IPC mechanism is any better than d-bus which has restrictions on what interface it can talk on03:05
neuralisKeybuk: i wasn't contending that security isn't a factor because there's no risk, but because i, after a hand audit, find the dedication to, and design of, the security systems in place fully adequate. 03:06
Keybukyou'd have to djb it, split it into very small processes that each have a particular job and communicate over a strict protocol to a companion process in a different "security zone"03:06
Lathiatassuming d-bus is secure, but any home grown protocol is likely to get bugs too03:06
LathiatKeybuk: hehe...03:06
Lathiatmm djb, dont get me started on djb :)03:06
neuralisKeybuk: you're allowed a fully different definition of adequate, and thus ymmv.03:06
Keybukneuralis: except that in your audit, you appear to have not noticed that the chroot'd daemon needs to talk dbus ... which puts my faith in your audit as very low, I'm afraid03:06
Keybukand, note, that no piece of djb software has been granted an open port either ... because we don't do open ports around here03:06
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neuralisKeybuk: bah. still not my spec, still don't care about avahi. i was asked to audit the bigger picture, after pitti audited the lower-level primitives, and i did. in the end, i don't use avahi, and couldn't care less about it being enabled.03:07
sladenLathiat: "assuming D-Bus is secure".  Bzzzt.  Bad assumption03:08
Lathiatsladen: see following comment03:08
sladenLathiat: okay :)03:09
neuralisKeybuk: the audit noticed dbus fine, but no developers were around for me to ask specific questions about how and why the design was the way it was.03:09
Lathiatneuralis: avahi developers?03:09
neuralisLathiat: yes.03:09
=== Keybuk points at Lathiat ... ask away :p
Lathiatneuralis: im around now :)03:09
neuralisLathiat: well, i've already inferred the answer to the dbus question; you felt that it's better than a homebrew ipc protocol, and you also thought it's better to keep the dbus stuff chrooted (which, i believe, is approaching the separation incorrectly.)03:10
neuralisLathiat: the remaining question was why not move the introspection files into the chroot instead of passing them around via the helper.03:10
Lathiatthats a question i dont know the answer to 03:11
Lathiatlennart did that03:11
Lathiati'd have to ask him03:11
Lathiathe doenst seem to be around atm tho (is guadec still on?)03:11
neuralisLathiat: it's something to ask him later.03:14
=== Lathiat nods
=== neuralis is off to killian court for the fireworks
Lathiatthanks for the chat :)03:16
Lathiatwhats the fireworks for?03:16
Lathiatah right03:16
robertjDidn't know you Harvard Commies still celebrated the 4th ;)03:17
neuralisrobertj: we don't, that's why i'm going to killian court :P03:17
neuralisrobertj: (those commies, on the other hand..)03:17
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Burgundaviahey bddebian03:27
bddebianHi Burgundavia03:28
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Hobbseehi all03:37
LaserJockhi Hobbsee 03:37
Hobbseehi LaserJock and Chipzz 03:38
zulhey Hobbsee 03:38
Chipzzat least on an international channel most of the time someone is awake ;P03:38
Hobbseehi zul 03:38
HobbseeChipzz: hehe, true03:38
Hobbseejdub: awake today?03:39
=== Chipzz looks for beer ;P
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HobbseeChipzz: it's gone, i drank it.03:58
ChipzzHobbsee: I live in Belgium, the country of beer ;)04:00
Chipzzthere is no such thing as "no beer" in Belgium ;)04:01
HobbseeChipzz: hehehe04:01
Chipzzthere IS such a thing as "no-one awake" though ;P04:02
Hobbseebecause they've all passed out due to being drunk.04:03
Chipzzheh :P04:04
Chipzzthey just have better things to do than to be on irc ;P04:04
HobbseeChipzz: you mean there are better things than being on irc?04:07
HobbseeChipzz: actually, i agree with you -in a hack session with some of the other devs, and chatting on irc like that - and being able to watch the responses to what you type.  now *that's* fun!04:07
=== Hobbsee breakfasts
Chipzz03:27 < Chipzz> wa doet gij nog zo laat op om te beginnen? :)04:08
Chipzzheh ;)04:08
Chipzzand I thought *I* was a nerd ;P04:08
Chipzz(no offence meant ;))04:09
=== Hobbsee is just weird. and a nerd.
HobbseeChipzz: actually, irc is the communication medium to meet up with people - which is why i logged on before breakfast.04:10
ChipzzHobbsee: but is it a medium to meet people you work with, or to make new social contacts?04:11
Chipzzafter having been on irc for 10 years, I'm more and more convinced it's mostly the former04:12
Chipzzalso the latter04:12
Chipzzbut for a large part the former04:13
profoX`Chipzz: belgian beer ftw04:17
ChipzzprofoX`: FTW?04:18
Lathiatfor the win? :)04:19
Chipzzis there any winning to be done then, really? :)04:19
profoX`Lathiat: is right04:19
profoX`please guys, you ruin the... eh.. acronym04:19
ChipzzprofoX` ;)04:19
profoX`what i meant to say was: belgian beer = good04:19
ChipzzprofoX`: yes, but WHICH belgian beer? ;)04:20
profoX`Duvel, of course :D04:20
Chipzzwhich one of the more than 100 belgian beers? ;P04:20
Chipzzduvel gives me stomach gasses :P04:20
profoX`what do you drink then04:21
profoX`jupiler ?04:21
Chipzzkriek lindemans is very nice04:21
profoX`kriek lindemans is okay for once, but i'd rather have my duvel ;P04:22
Chipzzsome people think it is *too* sweet04:22
ChipzzI was drinking jupiler earlier :)04:23
Chipzzstella was all gone :/04:23
HobbseeChipzz: the former, mostly.04:23
profoX`Chipzz: it is too sweet to be considered real beer :P04:23
=== Hobbsee sends all the beer talk back to -offtopic
=== Chipzz gives Hobbsee a Kriek Lindemans ;)
ChipzzprofoX`: also, rodenback grand crue04:24
Chipzzrodenbach is crap, but the grand crue is great :)04:24
profoX`never drank that04:24
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ChipzzHobbsee: you into sweet things?04:24
HobbseeChipzz: depends what sort of things04:25
=== Hobbsee isnt here.
Chipzzshe really is not ;P04:28
bluefoxicyHere's a thought.04:30
bluefoxicyI recently installed Ubuntu Dapper on a 350MHz K6-2 with 192 megs of ram04:31
bluefoxicyit took some fighting; I had to kill GDM and then startx with xterm in my .xinitrc, just to get enough ram free for the damn thing to not lock up totally during install04:31
bluefoxicy(as to why the OOM didn't stab things to death I have no idea)04:32
Chipzzbluefoxicy: use the altnerative install cd?04:32
bluefoxicyOnce it's installed, it works.  A little sluggish, takes about 3 minutes to open up openoffice.org, not yet swapping.04:32
bluefoxicyWell, my question is this04:32
bluefoxicy486 stops at 66MHz.  No.  Freaking.  Way.04:32
Chipzzmy question is this: who is as machosist as to run OO.o on a 192MB machine? ;)P04:33
bluefoxicyIs there ANY benefit to building the whole system as 586 or 686 (I have been looking for a list of instructions introduced in those processor lines with no luck), or should we not care?04:33
Chipzzbluefoxicy: and 486 stops at DX4 120Mhz04:33
bluefoxicyChipzz:  okay, I've never physically seen more than 33MHz but heard of 66.  120, that's ... still... not going to be fun.04:34
Chipzzand I do not think that there is much substantial benefit as to build for i58604:34
bluefoxicyMe either, it's just a thought.  It's between "is anyone going to ever run this on a 486?" and "Is there a practical benefit to going 586?"; I don't see a practical benefit, even if there's no real way anyone is running this thing on a 48604:35
Chipzzmuch of the stuff that makes stuff fast is either pure ordering of instructions (386 <-> 486) or use of a particular extensions, like MMX(2), or SSE(2)04:35
bluefoxicyheh.  Don't get me started on SSE04:35
ChipzzMMX and SSE for making string instructions faster04:36
bluefoxicyusing that as a general math coprocessor is slooooooooow.04:36
bluefoxicy(there's apparently a gcc optimization that uses sse for math!)04:36
bluefoxicy(a lot of gentoo people were using it @_@)04:36
Chipzziirc sse can be faster for string copy stuff than integer stuff is04:37
bluefoxicySSE is faster for repeatedly computing on the same data set04:37
Chipzzor maybe that's just MMX; dunnow04:37
Chipzzso SSE would also be faster for doing the (null) computation on the same data set?04:38
Chipzzie strcpy?04:38
bluefoxicylike if you want to calculate a particular value and it starts with 4 variables A B C D and does A % B -> ab , C / ab -> N, N * AB -> Z ..... for like a 70 step pipeline, it's faster04:38
Chipzzor am I mistaken with mmx?04:38
bluefoxicysse won't do anything for strings04:38
bluefoxicyit's for like, math stuff04:38
bluefoxicyI'm told it takes 17 cycles to load a value into an SSE register, and 17 to get it back out04:39
Chipzzthen I'm probably mistaking with mmx04:39
bluefoxicybut then when you do a string of math instructions it executes like a jillion of them a cycle04:39
bluefoxicyhence if you have really, really long mathematical computations it's super fast04:40
bluefoxicybut that's EXTREMELY special cased04:40
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wasabiWeird bug: System > Quit.  GDM "Choose Server" box appears (I have two X servers configured), but right when the box appears, the screen fades out and gnome-screensaver locks.06:08
wasabiApparently the case of having GDM prompt wasn't considered.06:09
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jsgotangcohello fabbione07:22
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Mithrandirfabbione: any chance you could review https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/live-cd-share-live-cd for me?07:53
fabbioneMithrandir: yeps.07:53
fabbioneMithrandir: i will need to bother you later for sparc07:53
fabbione(but not now. i still need to do them)07:54
Mithrandirfabbione: thanks07:58
fabbioneMithrandir: see /msg07:58
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pittiGood morning08:46
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ivokspitti: care to upload something to dapper-updates? :)08:49
ivokspitti: fix for bug 4540608:50
UbugtuMalone bug 45406 in libgnomecups "memory leak in gnome-cups-icon" [Unknown,Unknown]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4540608:50
pittiivoks: ah, that one; yes, it's in my mbox so far, but I'm not sure whether it's worth the trouble08:52
ivokspitti: i've fixed it08:54
ivokspitti: (applied debian patch)08:54
ivokspitti: it's on http://www.grad.hr/~ivoks/ubuntu/libgnomecups08:55
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pittiivoks: can you please attach the debdiff to the bug, so that mdz has something to look at for approval?09:01
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jameshivoks: btw, I updated my ipplib.py + printerlist.py demo to work with current CUPS (and fixed an issue with encoding multiple values for an attribute)09:03
jameshif you were still interested in it.09:03
ivokssure I am09:03
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jsgotangcohello sabdfl09:31
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lifelessseb128: steve would like to speak to you, as me09:54
seb128lifeless: about?09:54
jsgotangcomorning sivang09:55
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dholbachgood morning09:58
sivangmorning jsgotangco , dholbach 09:59
dholbachhey sivang09:59
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sabdflhi jsgotangco... i see everyone's in https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+specs "get cracking" mode10:06
=== hunger gets a kernel oops when booting the 2.6.17 kernels for edgy. Anyone looking into those problems?
crimsunw/ 2.6.17-4.6?10:10
fabbionehunger: please file a bug in LP10:10
fabbionehunger: add all the OOPS10:10
slomo_hunger: bug #51308 maybe?10:10
UbugtuMalone bug 51308 in linux-source-2.6.17 "linux-image-2.6.17-[34] -686 doesn't boot, libata error" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5130810:10
hungerfabbione: I did... #51384v10:11
crimsunthat should be fixed in 2.6.17-4.6.10:12
hungerfabbione: I am afraid that will get lost as a duplicate of the hd->sd bug.10:12
fabbionehunger: then please wait...10:12
hungercrimsun: Oh, great!10:12
hungerfabbione: I will. but since the bug was marked as a duplicate of the hd->sd thing before, I was afraid it would fall through the cracks.10:13
sivanghunger: I also have this bug , and non of the edgy kernels have ever booted for me10:18
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Kamionogra: in practice you want to support gcompris-sound-* for edubuntu, don't you?10:37
Kamion(just dealing with NEW and figuring out which components stuff goes in)10:37
Kamionogra: at present gcompris-sound-eu and gcompris-sound-hu are in universe and all the rest in main, which seems a bit ranom10:37
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jhemonoHello. I've written a spec a long time ago and I recently posted it on ubuntu-devel mailing-list. I saw a meeting have been planned for reviewing specs at july 6th 2000 UT. Herre it's wiki page : https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/automated-localization-download . Do you think I sould register it for reviewing at the meeting ? I10:45
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simosxjhemono: I have the impression that when you install Ubuntu 6.06 and you have chosen a language during the CD booting, you get the basic localisation from the CD. However, when you setup the system and the network connection, AFAIK apt considers that the localisation packages for Firefox, OOO, etc are pending and asks you to install them.10:53
jhemonoyes ....10:55
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jhemonoIn my mail to the mailing list we are discussing about how to tell the user that full localization is avaiable : a notification would be too pervasive said someone and an icon would'n be pervasive enough i said. so do you think I have to register it for the meeting for more brains think to it ?10:59
mdkehey Seveas, can you get my cloak back? it has disappeared. Lemme know if you want an email about it11:00
Seveasone sec11:01
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jhemonoSo, what do think of it ?11:24
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Seveas -:NickServ!NickServ@services.- +Cloak for [mdke]  has been toggled [ON]  and changed to [ubuntu/member/mdke] 11:25
mdkeSeveas: thanks. did i disactivate it myself by accident?11:27
Seveasno idea11:27
Seveasmaybe a subspace rift caused it11:27
mdkeSeveas: ok. cheers11:28
TreenaksSeveas: a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop!11:28
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ograKamion, yes, i need to sort the seeds11:32
Hobbseehi ogra 11:32
jdubKamion: could you please s/python-sqlite/python-pysqlite2/ in the python seed?11:35
ograhey Hobbsee 11:37
dholbachcould somebody give back gksu?11:46
Kamionogra: I can do it now if you want - I already have the local chance11:48
Kamiondholbach: you need Keybuk11:48
dholbachKamion: ok... thank you.11:48
dholbachGloubiboulga: i just deleted my work on goffice and gnumeric merge11:48
dholbachGloubiboulga: i'll restart on it (they're both in debian experimental already)11:48
Gloubiboulgadholbach, I can take care of this if you want11:49
dholbachGloubiboulga: that'd be lovely - you know the *-gtk-* build parts a bit better11:50
dholbachGloubiboulga: if you're done i can have another look at it and upload it11:50
Gloubiboulgadholbach, ok, I'll try to get this done this evening (fighting with xfce4-terminal for the moment)11:50
dholbachGloubiboulga: merging? or the rebuild for vte?11:51
Gloubiboulgadholbach, packaging a svn snapshot, I don't even know how the package in dapper has been built or how it works11:51
Kamionjdub: if you mean s/python-sqlite2/python-pysqlite2/, I did that on 21 June11:52
jdubKamion: ah, ok11:52
jdubKamion: thanks11:52
Kamionjdub: oh, apparently python-sqlite is still there. you want me to drop that then?11:52
Kamioncan I have a rationale for the bzr log?11:52
jdubKamion: uses old, buggy sqlite 1.x, not desireable or recommendable11:53
Kamionsqlite 2 according to dpkg -I11:53
ogradholbach, evo crashing isnt gpg related11:53
Gloubiboulgahas anyone seen janimo lately? I haven't seen him on irc or MLs since the Paris uds11:53
Kamioninterestingly, we currently have both sqlite 2 and 3 in main11:53
ogra(happens as well if i switch off gpg completely)11:53
Kamionlibsqlite0 | 2.8.17-0ubuntu1 |          edgy | amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc11:53
Kamionlibsqlite3-0 |  3.3.5-0.2 |          edgy | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc11:53
dholbachGloubiboulga: me neither... i wondered about that too. didn't he want to travel now?11:53
dholbachogra: you have a backtrace?11:54
Kamionis there any prospect of getting rid of libsqlite0?11:54
Gloubiboulgadholbach, no idea... I mailed him a few hours ago, I hope he'll reply soon11:54
Kamion(if not, surely we should keep its bindings)11:54
ogradholbach, not yet... in the state my system is that takes some effort (i cant even type properly and the linux-image fix that adds keyboard support for me is still MIA)11:54
Kamionjdub: ^--11:55
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ogradholbach, i have a bug buddy backtrace, but i cant copy and paste apparently ...11:58
dholbachit has a "save" button11:58
Kamionok, the seeds now require germinate 0.19 / 0.11ubuntu1 kthxbye11:59
ogradholbach, only if the "show details" button works .... damned11:59
ograupgradinbg to edgy with inly one laptop around was the worst idea evah12:00
dholbachgdb -p $(pidof evolution)12:00
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dholbachor evolution-2.8 (whatever process is running now)12:00
ogradholbach, i cant copy and paste and i cant send mail, how would i get that to you ? :)12:01
ograi'll record it for later12:01
dholbachogra: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace12:03
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dholbachis somebody aware of the wiki being a bit broken? like links going to help.ubuntu.com/community/<something> and are empty and stuff?12:04
ograi noted the extreme slowness through the forwarding, but i havent been forwareded to empty pages yet12:05
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash -> click on "Backtrace"12:05
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Kamionogra: (done gcompris-sound-* seed change)12:06
ograKamion, thanks12:06
ogradholbach, right, none of the subpages are there12:07
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Kamiondamn, my germinate change wasn't *quite* right12:13
Kamionit's randomly not grabbing some bits from extra12:14
Kamionoh, I bet some bits don't realise that build-depends -> supported ...12:17
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sivangdo we have a python roadmap for edgy? e.g., which versions we are going to support, transistions we process from debian etc?12:39
pittisivang: we should be almost back in sync with debian now12:39
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sivangpitti: I see, thanks, what is going to be 12:41
sivangpitti: "the" python version for us?12:41
sladenpitti_laptop: -dbgsym.ddeb or -dbgsym.deb ?12:41
sivang(2.5 ?)12:41
pitti_laptopsladen: .ddeb12:41
pitti_laptopsladen: did I write a typo in my announcement?12:41
sladenpitti_laptop: you wrote ".ddeb", and my instant reaction was kwtf, that must be a type, somebody would have to be utterly nuts to use a brand-new extension12:43
pitti_laptopsladen: .ddeb was on purpose, see the spece12:43
sladenpitti_laptop: yeah, I found that12:44
elmopitti: you realise these can not possibly go on archive.ubuntu.com right?12:44
pitti_laptopelmo: my original plan was to use .deb, but the soyuz guys and infinity convinced me that a separate extension/namespace was better12:45
elmopitti: I don't care about the extension12:45
pitti_laptopelmo: we need a separate namespace to not kill the mirrors12:45
elmopitti: I care about the fact that archive.ubuntu.com even with only supported architectures is 160Gb12:45
elmoyou need a separate MIRROR to not kill the mirrors12:45
elmoexpecting hundreds of mirrors to add --exclude="*.ddeb" is utter crack12:45
sladenpitti_laptop: the .ddeb is going to be a PITA though, lots of things are already set to see 'ahh .deb', I know what mimetype to serve that with and tools that assume that the file they are working with ends in .deb12:46
pitti_laptopelmo: they will live somewhere else anyway AFAIU12:46
sladenpitti_laptop: valid point, the application is probably broken if it is hard-coded to always append .deb12:46
Kamionelmo: sorry, I'm going to need another germinate upgrade on drescher in a bit - trying to nail down the fix for the bug now12:46
elmopitti: ok - but just in case, I am going to add --exclude "*.ddeb" to our top levels :-P12:47
elmoKamion: k12:47
Seveaspitti, how about s/-debugsym.ddeb/.debug.deb/ ?12:47
sladen.udeb, .ddeb, .fudeb, .ubudeb12:47
pitti_laptopelmo: I am sorry that I do not know the soyuz details; but the guys are aware that we must not silently push them to the mirros12:47
pitti_laptopSeveas: it would make it hard to exclude the .ddebs from Packages.gz12:48
elmoa new extension really isn't a problem12:48
elmoany more than .udeb was for, err, udebs12:48
pitti_laptopSeveas: also, since they do not appear in debian/control, dpkg-genchanges and soyuz will cry out12:48
Seveasjust add .ddeb to the mime databasses in standard ubuntu programs (so they eg still open with gdebi)12:48
sladenpitti_laptop: find -name \*.deb -a \! -name \*.debug.deb12:49
pitti_laptopsladen: btw, the intention is not that users actually install them, btw12:49
pitti_laptopsladen: having a .deb-like file makes it convenient for developers, though12:49
KamionSeveas: if it's a different enough kind of thing (as pitti suggests) to deserve a separate extension, it should be properly separate rather than .debug.deb12:50
SeveasKamion, fair enough12:51
pitti_laptopSeveas: hm, teaching our tools to append .debug everywhere would be even more invasive, I think12:59
pitti_laptopalthough, no, forget that01:00
sladenpitti_laptop: presumebly these packges Extend: the real one, or are they completely separate?01:03
pitti_laptopsladen: right now, the .ddeb depends on the exact version of the .deb, nothing else01:04
pitti_laptopsladen: I'm open to suggestions for improvements01:04
pitti_laptopsladen: Extend:? There is an Enhances: AFAIK01:04
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elmowhat on dapper renames my eth<n>'s?01:32
elmook, so any idea why it would rename a machine with two onboard nics, to eth2/3 on upgrade from breezy?01:33
Lathiatdoes /etc/iftab apply?01:33
Lathiatelmo: it could be one of those conflict things01:33
Lathiatthat causes them to jump up01:34
Lathiatactualy i wouldnt have thought youd end up with 2/301:34
giftnudelI can confirm this on my Desktop, btw01:34
elmogiftnudel: the random NIC renaming?01:35
giftnudelnot random, but +101:35
giftnudelwhen I upgraded to dapper01:36
sladenelmo: /etc/udev/rules.d/25-iftab.rules01:36
sladenelmo: bitch to keybuk about it, I think that is his crack01:37
elmohmm, the /etc/iftab was entirely disconnected from reality01:43
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Kamiongnomefreak: please don't mark ubiquity bugs as duplicates until you have read and understood http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUbiquity01:56
Kamion"you must not mark bugs as duplicates on the basis that they both contain a traceback such as this"01:58
Kamionalso if you use my standard texts from that page then you won't forget to ask for one of the log files I need :-)01:58
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Toadstoolnice, I didn't know of this wiki page, makes ubiquity bugs triaging a piece of cake :)02:06
Toadstoolhi devs02:06
ograwhere is make-kpkg supposed to put my kernel package ? i just built my own kernel to get keyboard support back, but i cant find the package now02:14
Mithrandirin .., usually02:16
ogrameh, then i did something wrong02:16
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=== ogra tries something
MithrandirKeybuk: would it be possible to have a list of merges mom skipped due to blacklisting in a BLACKLISTED directory or something like it?02:18
KeybukMithrandir: mom doesn't have a blacklist02:19
Keybukwhich merge is missing?02:19
MithrandirKeybuk: x11proto-composite was, at least.02:20
rodarvusmost X packages are missing - but due to different package naming02:20
fabbioneKeybuk: all x11proto stuff was missing but it might be becuase of unmatching md5sum for the orig.tar.gz02:20
fabbioneKeybuk: perhaps it's just exploiting a bug in MoM02:21
Keybuklet me look02:21
fabbioneKeybuk: you can try x11proto-xinerama02:21
fabbionenot the merge i already did, but using an older version02:21
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KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-xinerama: ubuntu is 1.1.2-3ubuntu102:21
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-xinerama: debian is 1.1.2-302:21
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-xinerama: base is 1.1.2-3 (1.1.2-3 wanted)02:21
Keybukso there's nothing to merge there02:22
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Keybukour "base version" is the current version in Debian, as far as mom is concerned02:22
fabbione<fabbione> not the merge i already did, but using an older version02:22
Keybukfabbione: do you have an example of something you haven't done yet02:22
fabbioneKeybuk: yes.. give me a minute to find one02:23
Keybuks'ok, found x11proto-xinerama in an earlier log02:23
Keybuki:Exit  -:PrevPg  <Space>:NextPg v:View Attachm.  d:Del  r:Reply  j:Next ?:Help02:23
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-xinerama: ubuntu is 1.1.2-0ubuntu202:23
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-xinerama: debian is 1.1.2-302:23
Keybuk(note, no base)02:23
Keybukso there's never been a version in Debian prior to 1.1.2-0ubuntu202:23
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-record: ubuntu is 1.13.2-0ubuntu202:23
KeybukDEBUG:root:x11proto-record: debian is 1.13.2-302:23
Keybuksame problem, never been a version in Debian < 1.13.2-002:24
fabbioneKeybuk: they have different md5sum for the orig.tar.gz in Debian and Ubuntu02:24
fabbionethat's all it matter02:24
fabbionewe had more history than debian02:24
Keybukfabbione: I don't think mom especially cares about that02:25
Kamionperhaps it would be possible for MoM to output a list of packages that are in both Debian and Ubuntu but that have no common base02:25
Keybukit will do the merge with the Debian orig.tar.gz02:25
Kamionin some of those cases it's worth our while trying to merge (most notably X but there might well be one or two others)02:25
KeybukKamion: yeah, i can do that ... gimme a sec02:25
Keybukthe interesting thing is that we have "Ubuntu Patches" for those02:27
Keybukthey'd be at least useful for a manual merge02:27
seb128does anybody know what is going on with the pango1.0 build?02:34
Keybukseb128: ask me in a minute02:34
fabbioneKeybuk: BenC was asking for a give-back of the kernel all over02:34
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bddebianHeya folks02:41
Keybukfabbione, Mithrandir:02:42
Keybukthat is the list of things MoM was not able to find a base version in Debian for02:42
Keybukeach one is linked to the patch from the Debian -1 if it exists02:43
bddebianwhew, I only have 1 on that list :-)02:43
Keybukin a few cases (like xorg) the patch won't exist ... so that will need to be a truly manual merge02:43
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fabbioneKeybuk: thanks02:44
Keybukok, kernel given back02:45
Keybukseb128: yes?02:45
Keybukseb128: no builds recorded .. right02:45
Keybukprobably needs me to shove my arm into the queue builder again02:45
Keybukyes, we're still in publish-distro ... the days are too long02:47
seb128Keybuk: is there any public queue order or something like that?02:52
Keybukyou'll note there's nothing in the queue02:53
seb128not listed02:53
seb128what does that mean?02:53
Keybukit means I need to do this02:54
=== Keybuk greases up his hand
=== Keybuk sticks it into the buildd's innards
=== Keybuk massages the appropriate point
seb128Keybuk: thank you ;)02:54
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bddebianHehe, response from Debian Developer:  "What is a desktop file" :-)02:55
ograseb128, i cant right click and suspect the main menu to be at fault for gnome-panel taking up 65% CPU, do you know of any key combo to remove an applet ?02:55
Keybukseb128: basically, the problem is that the buildd queue builder (which finds all the new sources that need building) cannot run during the publisher's cron.daily02:55
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Keybukand right now, for various reasons, cron.daily is taking the full hour02:56
Keybukso there's no time for the queue builder to run02:56
Keybukunless it's run manually02:56
Keybukwhich is what I've just done02:56
seb128ogra: gconf-editor? :)02:56
ograah, thanks ...02:56
seb128Keybuk: ah, ok02:56
Keybukso now we have another 300 things in the build queue02:56
Keybukand one of them is pango1.002:56
Keybuk^ has a "Builds of pango1.0" portlet02:57
bddebianAnyone happen to know when Debian is going to make the move to Python 2.4?02:58
seb128Keybuk: thank you :)02:58
seb128bddebian: some weeks ago?02:58
tsengbddebian: there is a new policy02:59
tsengbddebian: python2.4-foo is not the way to go apperantly02:59
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Amaranthi think doko would be the person to ask about that03:01
ograseb128, yay03:02
ograseb128, i can reliably report the main menu in gnome is proken in current edgy on ppc :)03:02
ogra*broken as well03:02
fabbioneogra: you just destroyed my theory03:03
seb128ogra: don't use edgy then03:03
ografabbione, which was ?03:03
ograseb128, :P03:03
fabbioneogra: edgy is bugless03:03
ografabbione, well, apart from not having a keyboard driver in the kernel for my ibook and from the panel eating 65% CPU and the main maenu flickering wildly .... it *is* bugfree :)03:04
bddebiantseng: ?03:04
fabbioneogra: ok, then please go and fix bgu #5192303:05
fabbionebug even03:05
ograbug 51923 ?03:05
UbugtuMalone bug 51923 in Ubuntu "Please package footiefox (FireFox extension)" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5192303:05
bddebianfootiefox? Hehe03:05
fabbioneAmaranth: read the bug03:06
pittiHi Keybuk03:06
ografabbione, only high ? 03:06
Amaranthah, football03:06
Amaranthgermany lost :/03:06
ografabbione, well, you guys play the final ... so do something for it :P03:06
fabbioneogra: i am sure you will get to critical.. you play saturday :)03:06
ograi wonder if they willl put any effort into that game :)03:06
jsgotangcoi bet it was painful03:07
fabbionejsgotangco: very!03:07
ografabbione, you must admit, for a team that was completely new and partially players were even added weeks before the championship started they did very very well03:08
jsgotangcobeginner's luck!03:08
ograif they stay like that and just train over the next years they'll kick your butts next time :)03:08
fabbioneogra: i didn't criticize at all how Germany did play.. it was a very balanced match03:08
fabbionei still did suffer till the end03:09
bddebianGoddamn I hate active stupid users...03:09
ograi found it impressing ... i wouldnt even have expected them to be that good03:09
fabbionescoring 2 goals in the last 90 secs was well.. good03:09
\shogra: germany never won against italy during a World/European Championship. but the statement: "Germany never lost a game in Dortmund" is now wrong03:09
ograluck ;) both teams deserved to win imho ...03:09
bddebianfabbione: Hey, what's all this X crap from you? :-)03:10
fabbionebddebian: helping the new X guy to stretch his wings03:10
ograbddebian, he leads us to new edgys :)03:10
fabbionebut as you said.. it's crap..03:10
Amaranthstretch his legs?03:10
fabbionethey are barely include headers03:11
fabbioneAmaranth: no wings... X have angels...03:11
fabbioneHell Angels03:11
Amaranththey ride motorcycles? :P03:11
fabbioneAmaranth: yes here in dk they do. they are one of the most dangerous group of people around03:11
bddebianogra: Well fabbione, swore to me he wasn't touching X ;-)03:12
ograso can i find any reviewer to take a look at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/StudentControlPanelCompletion =03:12
fabbionebddebian: and i am not touching it03:12
Amaranthgrr, kernel set the boot line to hda1 again03:12
fabbionei am only merging it to help somebody that will do my job :)03:12
fabbionebddebian: or do you expect us not to pass the cluebat03:13
bddebianfabbione: Of course not, isn't it "you are on your own fool.."? ;-)03:13
bddebianOf course, before you yell at me, you know I am kidding :-)03:14
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zulmmm...clue bat03:16
fabbionei am melting03:17
=== fabbione -> fridge
ografabbione, take a printout of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/StudentControlPanelCompletion with you and review it ;)03:18
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jpatrickogra: "he is able to monitor the students desktops via vnc to see if his suspicion is true." sneaky :(03:20
bddebianogra: Persistent aren't you? :-)03:21
bddebianI wonder how many DDs I can annoy today..03:21
zuli awy atleast 2 :)03:22
bddebian awy? :)03:22
azeemwho's the new X guy?03:23
bddebianazeem: rodarvus03:24
jsgotangcohail our the new xorg czar03:25
=== bddebian bows before the czar
jsgotangcobut aren't czars end up being beaten up by a mob?03:26
bddebianjsgotangco: Oh, I am sure he will :-)03:26
zuljsgotangco: actually they wound up being shot :)03:27
=== rodarvus just read the backlog now :)
bddebianDon't do it ;-)03:34
rodarvusbad fabbione03:34
ograrodarvus, if fabbione is bad he turns into pinhead :)03:36
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ograthat was still the calm fabbione :)03:37
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bddebianI packaged up a newer version of attal and pinged the Debian folks weeks ago and have heard nothing back.  Should I upload it?03:49
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TheMusoIf anybody on the spec review team could give one final glance over spoken-boot that would be great. It was approved, but wasn't set as an edgy goal. I changed that and set it back to review just to make sure this is ok. Thanks in advance.03:52
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ograKeybuk, dpkg-source: error: file kdeedu_3.5.2.orig.tar.gz has size 32344987 instead of expected 2984929004:05
ograi just try to build the original debian package, got all three files from mom04:05
pittiogra: then we have a different orig.tar.gz with the same name04:06
ograpitti, hmm04:07
ograthats evil04:07
pittiogra: you need to apply the diff.gz manually then04:07
pittiogra: (Debian's)04:07
ograpitti, yes, i know04:07
pittiogra: and chmod 755 debian/rules04:07
pittiogra: yes, it's evil :/04:07
ograi was just wondering why i got that error04:07
ograbut indeed mom can only use one orig.tar.gz :)04:07
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=== ogra goes to grab the debian orig.tar.gz to compare ...
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seb128when is the next autosync from Debian run?04:29
Riddellping ubuntu-reviewers, kubuntu specs to be reviewed: adept-usability kde-kiosk-profiles kubuntu-accessibility kubuntu-printer-sharing kubuntu-system-settings-usability kubuntu-edgy-package-manager04:29
seb128we need to the new pycairo to fix pygtk apps non running atm04:29
ograhrm, gtk2-perl is broken again ...04:30
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ograpitti, hmm, how does mom get a orig.tar.gz for a package that *is* not in ubuntu yet ... kdeedu has no 3.5.2 in ubuntu 04:40
ograKeybuk, ^^^ ?04:40
ograso it must be the debian orig.tar.gz04:41
Riddellogra: is touch broken for you on amd64 in edgy?  it doesn't want to set timestamps for me04:44
ograRiddell, mount /proc :)04:44
Riddellbah, more chroot hassle04:45
fabbioneogra: sorry i managed to close myself inside the fridge04:47
fabbioneogra: do you still need review for that spec?04:48
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bddebianfabbione: Nice, are you cooler now? :-)04:50
fabbionebddebian: it depends what part of my body you are referring to04:51
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ografabbione, yep04:54
fabbioneogra: 04:54
fabbioneogra: ok04:54
ograwow, thanks 04:54
fabbioneogra: ok i will review it04:55
ograi think its pretty straight forward ...04:55
fabbionejust gimme a few minutes04:55
bddebianAre we going to have libgl1-mesa-swx11-dev in Edgy?04:57
Kamionit's in Debian unstable, so ...04:59
bddebianDamnit, another blocked merge..04:59
bddebianI guess I'll just wait till UVF to merge everything.. ;-P05:00
Kamion\sh: the subject lines of bug 51976 and bug 51978 do not match the package names you've assigned them to; please clarify05:01
UbugtuMalone bug 51976 in libsdl-sge "[Edgy MoM]  sync libxbase 2.0.0-8 from unstable" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5197605:01
UbugtuMalone bug 51978 in livehttpheaders "[Edgy MoM]  sync libhttpheaders 0.12-2 from unstable" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5197805:01
fabbioneogra: Anselmo <- WORST NAME EVAR05:03
bddebianogra: Put him back in the fridge ;-P05:03
Kamion16:03 < Kamion> Would someone who's experienced in writing specifications mind writing some use cases for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuServerTasks? I've done the rest of the specification, but I couldn't05:03
Kamion                quite face the use cases ...05:03
Kamion16:03 < Kamion> some way to make them not just effectively a copy of the design would be nice05:03
Kamionneuralis: ^-- maybe you could?05:03
tsengbddebian: ?05:03
ografabbione, feel free to put a new one in, its a wiki ;)05:04
bddebian<tseng> bddebian: python2.4-foo is not the way to go apperantly <-- ?05:04
tsengwhat part was confusing05:04
Kamionsee debian-devel-announce@05:04
bddebiantseng: All of it?05:05
Kamionone of the more recent posts has a link to the new python policy05:05
tsengin the previous line i mentioned there was a new policy05:05
tsengthey were meant to be read as a pair05:05
fabbioneogra: "/usr/share/doc/student-control-panel" is not policy compliant either and all that section is not clear at all05:05
bddebiantseng: Ah, OK05:06
bddebianKamion: OK05:06
fabbioneogra: otherwise it looks ok to me05:07
ografabbione, hmm, you want the script there (it will be a five liner calliing chroot $LTSPROOT apt-get install x11vnc)05:07
fabbioneogra: no, the script can't be in share/doc05:07
fabbioneogra: share/$pkg/ is fine05:07
fabbioneogra: plus you could install the package in the chroot without a script05:08
fabbioneogra: iirc you still create the chroot on the server to boot05:08
neuralisneuralis: i'll take care of it05:08
ografabbione, yes, thats the plan but i cant call it from postinst05:08
neuralisKamion: i'll take care of it.05:08
Kamionneuralis: thanks!05:08
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=== Kamion regains the will to live
fabbioneogra: you need to explain me what you are trying to do. it's not clear from the spec05:08
ograand you could also use it on ubuntu with no existing client chroot05:08
ograi'll change that section05:09
Gloubiboulgadholbach, you want to merge the experimental packages for goffice and gnumeric, right?05:09
fabbioneogra: ok and expand it if required. it doesn't need to be in one long sentence :)05:09
bddebiandholbach?  Where is dholbach? :-)05:09
fabbioneogra: you are allowed to use 2/3 of them :P05:09
ograheh, yep, will do :)05:09
Gloubiboulgabddebian, he's everywhere05:09
bddebianGloubiboulga: Aye, just haven't "seen" him lately05:12
iwjAhhh, it's not finding the chrome _at all_.05:13
ograiwj, xulrunner doesnt need chrome :P05:13
dholbachGloubiboulga: yeah, that was the plan05:13
dholbachbddebian: hellas :)05:13
Gloubiboulgadholbach, ok05:14
neuralisKamion: some of these tasks look suspicious.. should xen really be a task?05:14
dholbachBarry!!!1111!! :)05:14
dholbachhey tseng05:15
dholbachrodarvus: congratulations to your first upload! :-)05:15
rodarvusdholbach, thanks! glad you noticed :)05:16
=== dholbach hugs rodarvus!
=== rodarvus hugs dholbach back!
=== pitti praises rodarvus for his X love
Kamionneuralis: dunno, I was just going off the BoF minutes, I was kinda tuned out during that05:16
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Kamionneuralis: I'm not hugely convinced by that one, no05:17
rodarvuspitti, praise fabbione and Mithrandir :)05:17
neuralisKamion: yeah, the same for some of the other tasks. i'll take a cluebat to it.05:17
Hobbseejdub: oh *crap*05:17
Hobbseeanyone got anywhere i can escape to in the next few days?05:18
pittirodarvus: I do! :)05:18
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tsengonly if you can make it as far as Philly05:18
bddebianhehe, I was going to say that05:18
Kamionneuralis: ta05:18
tsengpretty long trip05:18
bddebianHi Hobbsee05:18
Hobbseehi bddebian 05:18
Hobbseetseng: damn.05:18
=== Hobbsee is in real trouble now.
Hobbseetseng: i got home about 1am, curfew was 12.05:20
=== tseng confused face
zuloh oh..05:21
Hobbseetseng: i was supposed to be home by a specific time, and couldnt be.05:21
Hobbseeso mum's not happy05:22
pittiHobbsee: then come home at 4am, then nobody will be angry any more; instead they'll be happy that you got back :)05:22
ograHobbsee, offer lawn mowing or car washing to her :)05:22
Hobbseepitti: heh, i wish it worked like that.  i chose not to drive earlier cos i was tired.  but she'll still whinge, as that's twice in one week.05:22
Hobbseeogra: heh05:22
\shKamion: sorry...05:23
Hobbseeno, she'll just get utterly and totally pissed off and lecturing, i think.05:23
\shKamion: the power of autocompletion :(05:23
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\shKamion: sync request for livehttpheaders corrected, #51976 rejected and sync request libxbase newly created 05:27
ograKeybuk, ping05:28
YagisanHobbsee: you poor thing. Want me to pop over and give your mum the wrong idea ;)05:28
dholbachtseng: thanks for pushing me05:29
tsengdholbach: np05:29
=== Hobbsee kicks Yagisan again.
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HobbseeYagisan: you know, i'd avoided comments like that *all* night - it felt so odd.  pity it didnt work this mornign too.05:29
Kamion\sh: in future, no need to reject, just change the package name05:30
\shKamion: right, k05:31
fabbionemorning mdz05:33
Keybukogra: pong05:34
Hobbseehi fabbione 05:34
fabbionehey Hobbsee 05:35
ograKeybuk, where does the orig.tar.gz in the kdeedu merge come from ? 05:35
ogra(th eone for 3.5.2)05:35
Keybukplease be more specific05:36
Keybukwhich orig.tar.gz, for which part of the merge (base, ubuntu or debian)05:36
ograi cant build the debian package thats on mom05:36
Keybukthen it is likely the Ubuntu one05:36
ograhmm, i thought there was no 3.5.2 in ubuntu yet05:36
Keybukif Debian and Ubuntu have a different orig.tar.gz, you get whichever gets copied into the directory second ;)05:36
ograin any case its not the upstream one ...05:36
Keybukubuntu: 4:3.5.2-0ubuntu905:37
=== ogra looks
Keybukubuntu had 3.5.2 to begin with05:37
ogragah, i'm blind05:37
Keybukgiven the resulting merge is also 3.5.2, you'll need to upload with the Ubuntu orig.tar.gz05:37
ograwell, the merge is completely broken05:37
Keybukyou can grab the Debian tarball from Debian directly, or casey:/srv/patches.ubuntu.com/pool/debian/k/kdeedu05:38
ograyep, did that, buiuld is running05:38
Keybukogra: how is it "completely broken" ?05:38
ograbut the upstream source is different05:38
ograit isnt buildable ..05:38
Keybukright, there isn't anything mom can do in that circumstance05:38
Keybukmanual merge time05:38
ograthere seem to be pieces missing etc05:38
ogra(from the tarball)05:38
Keybukthat I doubt05:38
seb128Keybuk: when is the next standard sync from Debian going to be done (ie: for packages already in sync)?05:39
KeybukI suspect you will find that the merge makes perfect sense if you compare the three source packages05:39
ograKeybuk, dpkg-source: error: file kdeedu_3.5.2.orig.tar.gz has size 32344987 instead of expected 2984929005:39
ogradpkg agrees with me :)05:39
Keybukogra: now you're just being silly :)05:39
Keybukobviously the Debian source can't be unpacked ... the wrong orig.tar.gz is in the directory05:39
seb128Keybuk: we need pycairo 1.2.0-1 to fix pygtk, if somebody could force a sync now instead of waiting on the next (daily?) run... :)05:39
Keybukseb128: I'll do it now05:40
ograKeybuk, the upstream tarball is missing stuff ... 05:40
seb128Keybuk: thank you05:40
Keybukogra: then that's our fault, not mom's :p05:40
ograKeybuk, yes, i didnt blame mom for it :)05:40
Riddellogra: what's it missing?05:40
Keybukprobably worth uploading a new 4: or something with the Debian .orig.tar.gz05:40
Riddellor just move to 3.5.305:41
ograis there a 3.5.3 in debian 05:41
Riddellpackages.d.o says no05:41
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ograRiddell, 05:44
ograogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/packages$ rm -r kdeedu-3.5.2/debian05:44
ograogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/packages$ rm -r kdeedu-3.5.2-1ubuntu1/debian05:44
ograogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/packages$ diff -ruN kdeedu-3.5.2/ kdeedu-3.5.2-1ubuntu1/|wc -l05:44
ograthere is missing a lot ...05:44
Riddellogra: anything important, i.e. not created by buildprep?05:46
KeybukTheMuso: ping05:46
ograRiddell, thats the unpacked source tarball ... no debian/ubuntu changes05:46
ograthe upstream sources differ ...05:47
ograi have no idea how to merge that apart from doing a completely new package based on the debian version ...05:47
Riddellwell you should start by getting 3.5.305:48
ogra(well, we could carry around a 1050367 lines long patch ...)05:48
ograRiddell, but then we'll have that case again next time we'll merge ...05:49
Riddellthen copy the latest debian packaging, copy the kubuntu patches in debian/patches and debian/patches/common and make sure any changes in KUBUNTU-DEBIAN-CHANGES are included and voila05:49
ograunless i can be 100% sure the upstream tarball doesnt change before debian builds it05:49
Riddellmerge the changelogs too of course05:50
ograstill, how can i be sure thats mergeable next time if we dont use the debian packages at some point ?05:51
Riddellwe can't use the debian packages, they're a version behind05:51
ograkdeedu is a hell of a package ... i wouldnt want to touch it again if there is *any* way to sync it05:51
ographew, ok05:52
Riddellthe only part you need to care about is the debian directory, anything outside that is automake stuff05:52
ograi still dont undestand why our upstream tarball is 3M smaller than debians though ...05:53
sladenogra: if you unzip the tarballs, how does the size of the tars compare?05:55
pittiogra: gzip -9?05:56
ograogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/packages$ ls -lh kdeedu*.tar05:57
ogra-rw-r--r-- 1 ogra ogra 94M 2006-07-04 12:43 kdeedu_3.5.2-1ubuntu1.src.tar05:57
ogra-rw-r--r-- 1 ogra ogra 29M 2006-03-30 13:47 kdeedu_3.5.2.orig.tar05:57
ograwell ... wait ...05:58
Riddellogra: the debian packager has done it as bz2 inside .orig.tar.gz05:59
ograRiddell, yep, looks like it ...06:02
Riddellogra: however it looks like debian has changed to cdbs so you should just start by coping over their latest packaging (to kdeedu 3.5.3)06:03
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neuralisKamion: done, let me know if you need anything else06:13
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mdzpitti: regarding bug 45406, should I review what is there or are you going to revise it based on the comments?06:15
UbugtuMalone bug 45406 in libgnomecups "memory leak in gnome-cups-icon" [Unknown,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/4540606:15
mdzoh, I see a new one has been attached, though I didn't receive mail about it. odd06:16
pittimdz: hm, I didn't get the last one as mail either; but maybe it'll still arrive06:16
ivoksnew one is better06:17
bddebianHeya ivoks06:17
ivoksmdz: i add it couple of minutes ago06:17
ivoksbddebian: hello, what's up?06:18
Riddellcarlos: are you able to take ownership of a l10n team?06:20
rodarvusmdz, do you think you'll be able to review fully-automatic-swap-server and ltsp-login-and-session-handling today, or should I ask someone else on the ubuntu-reviewers group?06:20
carlosRiddell: no, I don't have such rights, but we can ask an admin06:20
Riddellcarlos: who's one of them?06:21
carlosRiddell: is there any abuse of the system?06:21
Riddellcarlos: nope, just the en-gb admin is without internet06:21
rodarvuss/be able/have time/06:21
Keybukrodarvus: I'll take the first one06:21
rodarvusKeybuk, thanks!06:21
carlosRiddell: https://launchpad.net/people/admins06:21
mdzrodarvus: ubuntu-reviewers06:23
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rodarvusmdz, I'll ask them, thanks!06:23
bddebianivoks: Not much thanks, you?06:24
mdzwhy do people keep trying to subscribe to the technical-board list?06:25
mdzI wonder if it should be hidden from the index06:25
=== bddebian is innocent for once, I swear
Riddelldo I really needs to ask all the ubuntu-reviewers to look at all the kubuntu specs still to be reviewed?06:25
ivoksbddebian: same here :)06:26
mdkemdz: the CC list is hidden06:26
mdzmdke: good point, I'll do the same for TB then06:27
mdkerather more surprisingly, so is ubuntu-server06:27
Keybukmdz: I just did already :p06:27
mdzKeybuk: yes you did06:27
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adamant1988can anyone tell me what kind of packages will be included in the commercial repos?06:40
Keybukcommerical ones06:40
adamant1988nice.  But i mean would a DVD play back program that allows for DMCA compatible dvd playback be in there?06:41
Keybukif there was a piece of commerical software that did that for Linux and was appropriately licenced to allow distribution (which I believe is not possible)06:43
ograadamant1988, if you have to offer one we're alloed to distribute by your company, we could put it in there, yes06:43
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ograKeybuk, sure, why shouldnt it be licensed appropriate ... if the company that offers it pays for all the patents etc ...06:43
adamant1988keybuk, it's possible.  Linspire offers LEGAL dvd playback06:43
seb128adamant1988: they probably pay for it06:44
Keybukogra: company has to pay for patent per-seat, no?06:44
Keybukadamant1988: you pay for linspire, it's not freely downloadable06:44
adamant1988i'd pay for the program06:44
ograKeybuk, and ? then you need a key to activate the proggy ...06:45
lukaswayne9After latest edgy updates, X.org redraws things VERY slowly.  Should I report a bug, or is too early in the release cycle?06:45
Keybuklukaswayne9: X is very much being changed atm06:45
lukaswayne9Keybuk: may I ask what changes are happening?  7.1 transition?06:45
Keybuklukaswayne9: sync with debian06:46
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lukaswayne9Keybuk: I guess I'll wait a bit to report a bug, things will probably get flushed out once the sync finishes06:47
ogralukaswayne9, give it until UVF to stabilize :)06:47
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seb128Keybuk: could you run the buildd queue builder? Would be nice to have GTK 2.10 planned for build :)06:50
Keybukseb128: cron.daily is still running06:50
Keybukand, dude, you've only just UPLOADED the frickin' thing06:51
Keybukit hasn't even had the source published yet06:51
Keybukthe buildds don't pick source off your hard drive, you know06:51
seb128Keybuk: I've uploaded like half an hour ago I think06:52
pittiKeybuk: that'd be even better than building from accepted :)06:52
Keybukseb128: so you missed a cron.daily run06:52
Keybukit'll be published tomorrow06:52
Keybukthen built the day after06:52
Keybukand then the binaries published the day after that06:52
ograKeybuk, we could do that with zeroconf :)06:52
=== robertj smacks ogra
=== ogra hides
seb128Keybuk: right, but I just would like to be around when the package becomes available so I can fix any issue with it without letting it b0rked until tomorrow morning :)06:53
robertj(worst thread ever)06:53
seb128Keybuk: anyway, no hurry, I'll wait the some "days" required for it :)06:53
pittiseb128: before I want python-defaults to be built, which is sitting in needs-build since this morning :)06:54
Keybukof course06:54
Keybukwe won't get a build queue run today anyway06:54
=== pitti guesses the build queue must be endless
=== Keybuk takes a pick-axe to soyuz
seb128pitti: doesn't look like06:54
Keybukpitti: no, the build queue is empty06:54
Keybukpitti: python-defaults built 3 minutes ago <g> -- https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/22193906:55
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pittiKeybuk: oh, whoa, it must have been built in the last 10 minutes06:55
pittiKeybuk: \o/06:55
=== pitti apologizes to the buildds
bddebianpitti: :-)06:55
pittiargh, mvoooooo!06:56
pittiel: Encountered a section with no Package: header06:56
pittibreaks apt and goes to holiday *sigh*06:56
Keybukthis could be fun06:56
Keybukcron.daily has so far been running for 52 minutes06:56
Keybukand hasn't even reached publish-distro yet06:56
seb128pitti: that's your languagepack source, right?06:56
pittiseb128: indeed06:56
seb128hehe :)06:56
pitti'Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/people.ubuntu.com_%7epitti_langpacks_daily_dapper-updates_._Packages'06:57
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crimsunpitti: hi, how how does -security handle GPG key retrieval for keys used to sign uploads? I presume my uploads of openvpn to breezy-security have failed due to a key expiration (since I've received no accept or reject e-mail), which seems odd because the precise key used to sign the upload is accepted for Edgy uploads.07:00
bddebianHeya crimsun07:02
bddebianDid mine not go through either?07:02
pitticrimsun: -security is on a different host (jackass); you need to ping elmo to refresh your key there, I assume07:03
pittibddebian: what did you upload?07:03
crimsunbddebian: I presume you uploaded to security.upload.ubuntu.com?07:03
pitticrimsun: let me look into the log07:03
bddebiancrimsun: Yes07:03
pitticrimsun: indeed, it's expired07:03
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crimsunpitti: ok, thanks much07:04
crimsunelmo: please refresh 0xC88ABDA3 for -security uploads, thank you  [context: < pitti> crimsun: -security is on a different host (jackass); you need to ping elmo to refresh your key there, I assume] 07:06
mdzsivang: why do you want to have two separate menu items for backups?  seems confusing07:09
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wasabi_I'd sure like to see swapd work at some point.07:28
fabbionewasabi_: why?07:29
wasabi_I think it's much more flexible than a static swap partition.07:30
wasabi_And can handle situations better, such as extending the swap on the fly.07:30
wasabi_(with the posibility of raising an event to the user that it happened)07:30
pygimdz, poke?07:37
mdzpygi: yes?07:37
pygithere isn't library for burning, but we agreed to work on that for edgy+107:37
pygifeature freeze for edgy is too soon07:37
ograpygi, ?07:38
ograpygi, what about the libburn stuff ?07:38
fabbionewasabi: it's something you can do even now, if you install your machine properly with lvm 07:39
fabbionewasabi: or use loop files to achieve that07:39
fabbionewasabi: nothing stops you to add a loop device as partition07:39
fabbiones/partition/swap &/07:39
pygiogra, any python bindings for that?07:40
ograi dont think so, but they should be easier to add than to write a burn lib from scratch07:40
ograand you dont need cdrecord07:40
pygiogra, right :)07:41
=== pygi totally forgot the libburn, thanks ogra ^^
wasabi_fabbione: Sure, mostly what I mean, is swapd does it "automatically".07:41
wasabi_Creating loop swap files as needed.07:41
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wasabi_I think there's a value in having that easily apt-get installable and Just Work.07:41
rodarvusKeybuk, ping07:43
Keybukrodarvus: heyhey07:44
rodarvusdid you had time to review fully-automatic-swap-server?07:44
KeybukI have had no time yet07:44
Keybukit's on my list07:44
rodarvusI ask because I have two others I need to find someone to review :)07:44
bddebianOh no, one of my Debian BTS submissions went to lamont :)07:44
rodarvusedubuntu-xfce-desktop and ltsp-login-and-session-handling07:45
mdzrodarvus: edubuntu-xfce-desktop should probably say something about how the seed will be maintained.  presumably it needs to be kept in sync with xubuntu-desktop07:52
mdzrodarvus: also, how will it differ from xubuntu-desktop?  does it need to?07:52
ogramdz, the idea was to only have xfce07:52
ograwe have nautilus on the CD already, no need for a different filemaneger for example07:52
mdzogra: and no applications at all?07:52
rodarvusit will only need to be different from xubuntu-desktop if we need to create extra packages with different configuration, specific for Edubuntu07:53
ograwell, sure applications as well, but the main complaint iss that there is no light desktop in edubuntu ...07:53
ograthe CD has all other bits ...07:53
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mdzogra: I'm asking why you can't use xubuntu-desktop instead of creating a new seed and metapackage07:53
ograi dont want to use up the CD space we have now with xubuntu packages07:54
mdzbecause the spec doesn't say how it will be different07:54
ograi think highvoltage wanted edubuntu branding for it07:54
highvoltagemdz: another reason is that xfce needs to be aware of edubuntu specific things, ie. use the same wallpaper, similar menus, etc07:54
ograhighvoltage, ?07:54
mdzdon't tell me; write it in the spec07:55
bluefoxicyogra:  I had a silly thought earlier to split out the gnome/xfce desktops from *-desktop07:55
bluefoxicyogra:  so that it'd be ubuntu-minimal ubuntu-standard ubuntu-gnome (workable GNOME desktop) ubuntu-desktop (a bunch of GNOME applications like gimp, ekiga...)07:55
bluefoxicyand similar with XFCE07:55
highvoltagestrange, i thought i had that in the rationale, but i don't :/07:56
ograwell, there is no real need for that ... 07:56
ograwhy would you split the desktop package ? 07:56
pygisivang, poke? :)07:56
bluefoxicyogra:  If you're going to fork something off xubuntu-desktop but try to stay in sync with them, that may be a bit easier, since the common packages would be in one meta-package instead of two.  Then again, you would have ANOTHER meta-package to keep track of.07:56
bluefoxicyogra:  so, just a thought.07:57
ograbluefoxicy, thats donnr on a bzr level ... no need for changes on the toplevel07:57
bluefoxicyBZflag Reloaded?07:57
bluefoxicy.... I like my idea better.  bzflag is fun.  :)07:58
bluefoxicyanyhow.  *slips off*07:58
shawarmadoes anyone know when infinity will be back from his holidays?07:58
fabbioneshawarma: sometimes next week i think07:58
fabbioneanyway i need to get out of here07:59
shawarmafabbione: Thanks.07:59
mdzdoko: why do we want an i386->amd64 cross compiler?07:59
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dokomdz: a) a faster compiler for i386 only, b) correct code for -m64. I don't know if the latter is still valid. need to find some other people to validate that08:05
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mdzdoko: reviewed with comments08:09
bluefoxicyi386->amd64 is faster?  I thought an amd64 compiler building i386 code would be faster... o.o08:11
bluefoxicy(no, really, with 8 more GPRs and the freaking lot of work the compiler does shifting shit around, there should be a substantial speed gain here >.>)08:12
bluefoxicyHey does anyone know when abouts I should expect Edgy to explode horribly-- I mean, get Xorg 7.1?08:12
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tsengbluefoxicy: can you please troll somewhere else?08:13
bluefoxicytroll what?08:14
bluefoxicyWhere else is there to ask that?08:14
tsengit wasnt the question, it was the horrible signal/noise, and the attitude08:15
wasabi_Linux memory confuses me.08:16
wasabi_What the heck does this figure in "top" "cached" refer to.08:16
tsengwasabi_: i think that refers to some kind of system cache for recently used files08:16
bluefoxicywasabi_:  disk cache, every time a file is read it's stored in memory so you don't have to toy with the disk every 10mS and lag like hell.08:16
wasabi_Not exactly. Because the OOM killer kills a program vs sacrificing it.08:17
wasabi_Which suggests a different purpose.08:17
bluefoxicyor just a bug in the OOM killer.08:17
wasabi_True... but I doubt it.08:18
bluefoxicyI have seen Linux OOM kill things when I have a gig and a half of free swap08:18
bluefoxicytrust me it can have bugs.08:18
wasabi_Well, I turned my swap off, to try to understand what it's doing.08:18
wasabi_free shows 2048MB total, used 2020MB, cached 1515MB.08:19
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wasabi_Which, from my original understanding meant that there was very small amounts of ram actually "used"... ie data that wasn't directly from a disk.08:20
wasabi_basically used - cached08:20
wasabi_mmaped files. Where do they fall.08:20
wasabi_I'm guessing they don't show in used, but show in cached.08:21
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\shmoins slomo08:26
slomohi \sh 08:27
\shguys I'm happy to be back in action :)08:27
bddebianAnd we are happy to have you ;-)08:28
LaserJockwe are happy you are back in action too08:28
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ografabbione, still around ? i fixed https://wiki.edubuntu.org/StudentControlPanelCompletion08:37
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slomohm, why is dash the default shell now?08:42
ograslomo, beacuse its way faster and smaller08:43
slomook, good reason :)08:43
ograno need for a user shell for script execution08:43
ograadduser still uses bash for user accounts08:43
\shwoot? you mean I have to adjust my default shell from dash to bash?08:44
slomo\sh: no but /bin/sh is now dash08:44
ograthe system uses dash ... but all users go on using bash08:45
crimsunthank god08:45
\shhow compatible is dash to bash?08:45
slomo\sh: dash is 100% posix compliant and only supports that, nothing else08:46
\shbecause I have to be careful then with all my shell scripts which are using bash style ;)08:47
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\shrodarvus: do you know why libxext-dev is not in x-dev? 08:49
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Kamionneuralis: thanks! will look over it post-karate-training08:54
rodarvus\sh, x-dev is a dead package08:56
rodarvusX >= 7.0 is modular08:56
\shrodarvus: ok...I just wondered why we are behaving differently from debian08:56
rodarvuswe aren't08:56
rodarvusthey have libxext-dev on a separate package too08:57
Kamionxorg-dev will have that sort of stuff08:57
Kamionit's a metapackage in Debian08:57
Kamionx-dev was only ever the core protocol headers08:57
\shrodarvus: right, but I just had a package which had only libx11-dev, x-dev as build-dep but I had to add libxext-dev to it08:57
Kamion(and it'll be called x11proto-core-dev in edgy)08:58
Kamion\sh: x-dev isn't a metapackage, it's the core protocol. if you need X extension headers then you need to build-dep on libxext-dev08:58
Kamionoops, late, gotta run08:59
\shKamion: yeah, but I wonder why debian just used libx11-dev and x-dev as build-dep ... 08:59
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Burgworkslomo, do you have any plans with tomboy or beagle for edgy?09:12
slomoBurgwork: for beagle ask tseng... for tomboy no idea yet... we'll see. but would be nice to have it installed by default09:13
Burgworkslomo, ok, just wondering. tomboy might make it upstream as well09:14
slomoBurgwork: what do you mean with upstream?09:15
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Burgworkslomo, gnome is considering tomboy for .1609:15
crimsunhmm, what is polypaudio's new name [if it has one] ?09:16
slomoBurgwork: oh, cool. that would be nice :) is it likely or will it probably fail because "mono is evil"?09:16
Burgworkcrimsun, pulse09:16
slomocrimsun: pulse audio iirc09:16
jdubvim in edgy has all the crack on by default09:17
jdublike folding in changelogs09:17
Burgworkslomo, it might fail, there was some discussion of that09:17
ograjdub, yeah its hefty :)09:17
Keybukjdub: :se nofoldenable09:17
crimsunBurgwork: / slomo: danke09:17
Keybukvim7 has some serious arse-wobble going on09:17
jdubKeybuk: not sure i don't like it yet, but it was surprising. it also has shiny paren matching.09:17
Keybuk"you're editor's so FAT ..."09:18
diemanoooo. i got my stickers and cds today09:18
jdub"your" :)09:18
Keybukyes, that too09:18
jdubhrm, i should set up pbuilder again09:18
slomoKeybuk: hi :) can you move libvisual to main (report approved by pitti a few days ago), give-back gst-plugins-base0.10 (after libvisual is in main) and gtk-sharp2? ;)09:18
Burgworkslomo, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00457.html09:18
ograjdub, merges.ubuntu.com :)09:18
crimsunI thought you were an emacs user, Keybuk (perhaps wrongly assumed from the u-d-a post regarding package maintenance in bzr)09:18
Burgworkslomo, and http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2006-April/msg00253.html09:19
jdubogra: hrm?09:19
ogra<jdub> hrm, i should set up pbuilder again09:19
LaserJockjdub: a good workout for you pbuilder :-)09:19
slomoBurgwork: thanks :)09:19
Keybukcrimsun: I am09:19
jdubogra: didn't see the connection09:20
Keybukslomo: no.09:20
ograjdub, well, give it something to do :)09:20
jdubogra: i want to test my own packages! (i'm lazy with build-deps withotu pbuilder)09:20
jdubdoes our pbuilder have ubuntu love by default?09:20
ograif you create one in edgy, it will be an edgy pbuilder for ubuntu ...09:21
Keybukcrimsun: what about that post implied emacs user?09:21
jdubhas X broken in amusing ways yet?09:22
crimsunKeybuk: sorry, not that post but one of myriad ones related where you mentioned an emacs mode?09:23
crimsunKeybuk: (my memory's pretty bad)09:23
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zulare we using mdadm by default now or have we always been using it?09:23
ograjdub, just starting 09:23
ograi guess next week will be the fun week :)09:24
jdubas in, the latest uploads are broken?09:24
ograno idea, after i lost my top panel and my keyboard on the ibook i got careful about upgrades for now ;)09:24
Keybukslomo: (verbose answer; I'll move libvisual to main when there's not a publisher run going on ... gst-plugins-base0.10 doesn't need a give-back because it's already in dep-wait ... gtk-sharp2 failed for other reasons)09:25
slomoKeybuk: it failed because libbonobo was broken at that time... i fixed it yesterday. with current edgy the latest gtk-sharp2 package build just fine09:25
^robertjogra: btw, does your ibook smell?09:26
slomoKeybuk: for gst-plugins-base0.10... nice that auto-dep-wait-removal is now implemented :)09:26
Keybukslomo: ok, gtk-sharp2 given back09:26
Keybukslomo: dep-wait removal has always been implemented, afaik09:27
Keybukit just takes a couple of days09:27
^robertjogra: I was wondering if there is some mis-calibration of some software controlled fan in there...mine stinks and other people have had issues where the fan stops spinning properly, the bottom of the keyboard starts to melt, and the whole thing smells rather putrid09:27
ograthe bottom gets very hot, yes ... but i have no probs with the fan ... and i wouldnt smell if it stinks, i'm a strong smoker09:28
tsengKeybuk: thanks09:28
slomoKeybuk: thanks :)09:29
jdub"my ibook has no nose!"09:30
ograhow does it smell ? 09:30
Keybukwell, it _looks_ like a toilet seat09:30
highvoltagemy thinkpad has no mouth, but it can scream09:30
bluefoxicytseng:  Not including -DFORTIFY_SOURCE in Edgy?09:38
bluefoxicy(no, I don't have an analysis or opinion on why/how/if this would/wouldn't help)09:39
tsengwell, please get one :)09:39
bluefoxicyit does compile time checks (nice) and replaces strcpy() et al (I'm wary of screwing with this...) with functions that do checks where we know the buffer size and length of the data to be copied at run time but not compile time.  Obviously that has some gains in some places, not sure how significant it can be when SSP is already trapping "before any damage can be done" or how much of a trade-off this is WRT stability09:42
tsengright so SSP has a strong heuristic for writing into a buffer09:42
tsengnot "these 3 functions that we dont think are safe"09:42
bluefoxicySSP will trap ANYTHING before a 'ret' happens, but after memory space is destroyed09:43
bluefoxicyfortify source will trap a few choice functions before memory space is destroyed, but still abort09:43
tsengwell, i am thinking of the difference between -fstack-protector and -fstack-protector-all09:43
tsengif there is still such a thing09:43
bluefoxicynicely, it'll also look at things like 'char a[4] ; strcpy(a, "this is too long")' and go "No, I'm not compiling this crap"09:43
tsengsounds nice09:44
bluefoxicyyeah.  I'm not sure if there's a way to do the compile time checks without the code replacement though09:44
bluefoxicyif fortify_source sees something like "char a[5] ; strcpy(a, passed_string);" it'll replace strcpy() with some sort of _internal_strcpy(a, passed_string, 5) and then check if strlen(passed_str) < 509:45
bluefoxicyWhich to me is minimally useful.  It won't do jack if you use glib, for example.09:46
=== tseng makes a face
tsengthat adds nothing with ssp09:46
bluefoxicyI know.09:46
bluefoxicyit'll also check a strcpy() if it's copying to a buffer that was JUST allocated in the same scope09:47
bluefoxicy(i.e. malloc() ... heap protection)09:47
bluefoxicywhich is not that spectacular.  glib will break this again.09:47
tsengwhy dont you spend your time getting things to work with ssp rather than futzing with fortify_source then?09:48
bluefoxicymy regression test suite says the current edgy gcc is spitting out SSP'd code by default.09:49
tsengmost of the problems in HG were from -fstack-protector-all09:49
\shKeybuk: are syncs not removed from the merge pages?09:51
bluefoxicypersonally I don't like -all; I guess it protects var_args functions, or so I've been told, but those are far and few and I would rather not sacrifice performance in a lot more places for gains in a number of places countable on one hand09:51
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Keybuk\sh: they should be09:52
Keybuk\sh: assuming the sync has been published09:53
Keybuk\sh: which has not been removed?09:53
\shI have a look...09:54
bluefoxicytseng:  Xorg doesn't have a problem with -fstack-protector anymore right?  I can't remember if that was pie or SSP... or if it was fixed ages ago (I remember it was 'fixed' 10 times and kept still being busted)09:54
tsengit was NX09:55
bluefoxicyI mean libbitmap.a/la09:55
tsengoh, that was ssp I think09:55
bluefoxicyit would scream about duplicate symbols.09:55
tsengand I definately remember fixing it09:55
bluefoxicythought so09:55
tsengmaybe i just used filter-flags09:55
=== bluefoxicy reads cvs
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bluefoxicyALLOWED_FLAGS="-fstack-protector -march -mcpu -mtune -O -O0 -O1 -O2 -O3 -Os"09:57
bluefoxicytseng:  I guess you fixed it.  It definitely worked last I was on Gentoo.09:57
\shKeybuk: e.g. alps-light109:58
=== jdub blinks.
tseng-fPIE -fPIC are notably missing09:58
tsengbut they arent in ubuntu, anyway09:58
\shKeybuk: https://launchpad.net/bugs/5160809:58
UbugtuMalone bug 51608 in alps-light1 "[not dev]  sync request of alps-light1_1.2.2-2 from debian unstable" [Untriaged,Fix released]  09:58
Keybuk\sh: looks like the sync never happened09:58
tseng-fPIE is scary09:58
Keybuka couple went messing09:58
KeybukI'll do it again09:58
bluefoxicytseng:  -fPIE is nice though, if you have code in the kernel to randomize the executable and brk() base09:59
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\shKeybuk: ah ok...yeah I see it now on the source package LP page09:59
bluefoxicyComputers are so violent, executing tons of poor, innocent programs every day.09:59
Keybuka smidgen under 2 hours for a daily10:00
Keybukthat's juuuust enough time to run the queue builder10:00
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bluefoxicytseng: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2004-09/msg02055.html  I can't understand this, it's muddled.  It looks like -DFORTIFY_SOURCE=1 turns on compile checking and -DFORTIFY_SOURCE=2 modifies code... maybe.  I haven't a clue and I can't find 'FORTIFY' in the body of the damn patch.10:05
bluefoxicyyou know what.  Jelinek wrote it, I'll ask him.10:07
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crimsunis $() preferred over ``  [for commands]  in sh?  (considering the transition to dash in Edgy)10:15
elmoboth are POSIX, so it's moot10:15
crimsunelmo: ok, thanks10:16
Keybukthey just have different quoting semantics10:17
=== jdub prefers $()
wasabi_I like $() too. Shows "containment" much better.10:19
wasabi_Also nestable.10:19
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wasabi_So has anybody considered swapd in Ubuntu, vs a swap partition?10:43
wasabi_Would love to read some opinion on pros/cons10:43
wasabi_Maybe with some tuning, etc.10:44
bluefoxicyswapd never seems to de-allocate swap; and OOM's a lot.10:44
bluefoxicyit's insensitive to disk cache vs swappiness as well10:45
bluefoxicyplus linux allows like 8 swaps to be active10:45
wasabi_How so?10:45
wasabi_Curious about the swappiness problem. What's that mean?10:45
bluefoxicyif you have a 2 gig swap partition10:45
bluefoxicyyou may wind out with 300 megs used in swap, 700 megs of ram used, and 300 megs of disk cache (vm.swappiness = 60)10:46
bluefoxicyif you have no swap partition and 32 meg swap files in swapd, you may hit 950 megs of RAM used and 2 32 meg swap partitions holding 50 more megs of memory10:47
bluefoxicyleaving about 50 megs of disk cache (kernel will keep around 5-10 megs free though, so more like 40 megs)10:47
bluefoxicyoddly enough, this is less efficient.10:47
wasabi_Not understanding why. ;010:48
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wasabi_Does the kernel see the available swap as a factor in it's decision on when to cache?10:53
wasabi_Also the OOM thing, would it not be proper for swapd to be notified before the OOM killer runs, in order to expand instantly?10:54
wasabi_vs polling10:54
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wasabi_Also, it might make sense to have a minswaps option for swapd, which always forces the creation of at least one swap file.11:09
wasabi_Or maybe "auto" options, which adjusts the size of swap files based on available core.11:10
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ogramdz, get off the idea of writing everything into the client chroot in ltsp :P11:29
ograwe need to get to a poiunt where ldap auth is possible and you can select between multiple servers in the network on login in the future ...11:31
Burgworkogra, isn't that what ajmitch is working on?11:32
ograBurgwork, yeps11:32
ograBurgwork, i was commenting on a spec comment mdz made ...11:32
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pygisivang, poke? :)11:50
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TheMusoKeybuk: pong12:00
KeybukTheMuso: any particular reason you unapproved your own spec?12:00
TheMusoWell I thought that since it wasn't targeted for edgy, and since I wanted it to be as such, that I should run it by you guys first.12:01
KeybukI approved it12:01
Keybukand I marked it as proposed for edgy12:01
TheMusoI know you approved it, but I didn't see anything for it to do with edgy.12:02
KeybukI was surprised that you marked it as "needs review" again, without making any changes12:02
=== TheMuso is still getting the hang of launchpad
Keybukso, what would you like to do with that spec?12:03
Keybukwould you like it reviewed again?12:03
Keybukwould you like to alter it?12:03
Keybukwould you like it to be approved and targeted for edgy?12:03
Keybukwould you like it to be approved and targeted for a later release?12:03
TheMusoYeah please12:03
TheMusoApproved for edgy if possible.12:03
Keybukto which? :p12:03
KeybukI see espeak is already in NEW, and the other bits should be in place for other reasons, I don't see why it wouldn't make it for edgy with your help12:04
Keybukso approved12:04
TheMusook thanks, and apologies. :)12:04
TheMusoBTW how is boot message logging getting on?12:05
Keybukno worries12:05
KeybukI haven't started it yet12:05
Keybukwe're still doing merges until upstream version freeze next week12:05
Keybukand then I'll begin working on specs12:05

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