[02:45] <LaserJock> mdke__: awake?
[02:47] <mvirkkil> Seems like I need to do some datamining. I've been playing around with the xslt to do docbook->moinmoin 
[02:47] <mvirkkil> The version I have now, handles most of what the moin->docbook generates, with the single huge omission of graphics.
[02:47] <mvirkkil> (because it's a bit complicated)
[02:47] <mvirkkil> Any suggestions on how to accomplish, where to start?
[02:52] <LaserJock> I'm a simple docbook user so I'm afraid I'm no help :(
[03:09] <mvirkkil> LaserJock: What's a "simple docbook user"
[03:09] <LaserJock> meaning, I can write docs with it
[03:10] <LaserJock> but I don't know much about doing stylesheets, etc.
[03:11] <mvirkkil> LaserJock: Ahh.. I was asking more like "what are the most important docbook elements", maybe. 
[03:13] <LaserJock> mvirkkil: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocBookReference has most of what I use
[03:17] <mvirkkil> LaserJock: Cool! Since I already handle almost all of that :)
[03:17] <LaserJock> yep
[03:17] <LaserJock> I actually don't have a graphics in the doc I maintain so I don't have a lot to offer there
[03:17] <LaserJock> s/a/any/
[03:18] <mvirkkil> Hmm.. I don't think all those examples are valid.
[03:19] <mvirkkil> yup. the list examples are invalid.
[03:19] <LaserJock> could be, that page is a work in progress I believe
[03:19] <mvirkkil> you must have <listitem><para>text</para></listitem> 
[03:19] <Laser_away> right, I believe so
[03:20] <Laser_away> gotta get home now, bbl
[03:21] <mvirkkil> ok
[04:21] <nixternal> Burgwork: was that you that wanted someone to go through one of the encryption pages on the wiki and see if it works?
[05:06] <robotgeek> somneone pinged me, but my away log was full
[05:20] <robotgeek> so, i dont know what/who pinged me
[08:40] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: I've been hacking on the xslt.
[08:41] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: you mentioned you might be interested in further developing it.
[08:42] <Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
[08:42] <jsgotangco> Madpilot: hello brian =)
[08:42] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: the docbook->moin xslt, that is. I split it in to smaller chunks, and added support for table attributes (align, valign, morerows, colspan), glosslist support, unlimited depth for lists, and the <section> tag.
[08:43] <mvirkkil> Seems like I need to do some datamining. I've been playing around with the xslt to do docbook->moinmoin. Now I need to know what to concentrate on. Any suggestions?
[08:44] <mvirkkil> I can't realistically support over 400 elements, so out of necessity, it's going to be a subset.
[08:45] <mdke__> Laser_away: now
[08:45] <mdke__> morning all
[08:46] <jsgotangco> hello mdke =)
[08:46] <Madpilot> morning mdke 
[08:52] <mdke> how are things in docland today?
[08:53] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:53] <jsgotangco> i sure did some docs today but for the UNDP and published in LP
[09:06] <mvirkkil> mdke: Well, I'm thinking about how to accomplish assessing what docbook stuff I need to support.
[09:06] <mdke> mvirkkil: uhuh
[09:09] <mvirkkil> mdke: I've basically added support for everything the moin->docbook (article, not book) generates, with the exception of images.
[09:10] <mvirkkil> mdke: I think I'll do the "chunking" of a book in to separate smaller parts in python and not xsl.
[09:10] <mvirkkil> and for now I'm concentrating on the xsl part.
[09:14] <mdke> mvirkkil: sounds very cool.
[09:15] <mdke> mvirkkil: if you want to patch what we have in the repository, and for us to test it, give us a shout
[09:56] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'll still add support for images, but after that it would be nice to have you test it.
[09:58] <mvirkkil> mdke: Or maybe even before that. What are you planning on using it for?
[10:17] <jsgotangco> it seems to have very faint row colors
[10:29] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: I noticed that bug too. You need to specify borders for each cell separately iirc.
[10:29] <jsgotangco> ouchhh
[10:30] <jsgotangco> and docbook tables arent the most beautiful in markup out there
[10:30] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: That's why I prefer writing wikimarkup and converting ;)
[10:30] <jsgotangco> hehe yeah i hear ya
[10:31] <jsgotangco> its just that i have to finish up my contract with the UN with this small conversion job
[10:33] <mvirkkil> "#Bug in yelp, the two lines below don't affect rendering: self.tgroup.setAttribute('rowsep', '1'); self.tgroup.setAttribute('colsep', '1')"
[10:34] <mvirkkil> Instead I do both of those separately for each single entry element.
[10:34] <mvirkkil> jsgotangco: What conversion?
[10:59] <mdke> mvirkkil: putting our guides into the wiki
[11:10] <rob> hmm, I guess I should file a bug on the packaging guide
[11:10] <rob> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/appendix-chroot.html
[11:10] <jsgotangco> rob: do it
[11:10] <jsgotangco> yeah
[11:10] <rob> the configure locales part doesn't configure locales
[11:11] <rob> one needs to also do something like: apt-get install language-pack-en
[11:15] <rob> ok done
[11:15] <rob> #52070
[11:24] <mvirkkil> mdke: So like install-guide could be an example? https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/generic/installguide/C/installation-guide.xml
[11:26] <mvirkkil> mdke: Because that contains almost exclusibely procedures and variablelists, it would seem. And neither is supported or has a clean conversion to wiki.
[11:27] <mdke> mvirkkil: well not that one specifically. But certainly guides which contain LOTS of procedures and some variablelists
[11:29] <mvirkkil> mdke: hmm.. That's a problem. Any suggestions on how to map those to the wikisyntax?
[11:31] <mdke> mvirkkil: well, I don't know how it works technically, but I would have thought that procedures can just be turned into a numbered list, if more than 1 step, and a bulleted list if a single step. Or is that too simplistic
[11:32] <mvirkkil> mdke: Actually, most of the other examples I'm seeing in your repo, don't contain procedures or variablelists.
[11:33] <mvirkkil> mdke: The problem is, that the wikisyntax doesn't handle anything that isn't a single paragraph with some markup very gracefully. Most steps contains screenshots and several paragraphs of text.
[11:34] <mvirkkil> mdke: But it would seem that the installation-guide is just about the only one with many procedures and variablelists. Other docbooks seem to look a lot simpler.
[11:34] <mdke> mvirkkil: we hardly have any screenshots. But if you want to see lots of procedures, see trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/C
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: Ahh crap ;) But those aren't as complex steps. Those could be mapped to orderedlists.
[11:37] <mvirkkil> mdke: I'll see what I can do :)
[11:38] <mvirkkil> mdke: Thanks for the feedback. 
[11:40] <mdke> thank you
[11:49] <apokryphos> mdke: ping
[11:57] <mdke> apokryphos: hello
[11:58] <apokryphos> mdke: hi. I see you changed some things on CommonQuestions (nice stuff), just wondering what you think the advantages are of the new contents page
[11:58] <apokryphos> seems a lot more troublesome to me. You  have to go to a section, then keep scrolling down the page to see if you find the answer
[11:58] <mdke> apokryphos: which contents page?
[11:58] <apokryphos> (instead of having all the questions in a small list, then clicking on the one you want). That method would work if there were very few questions only, I think.
[11:58] <apokryphos> mdke: on CommonQuestions
[11:59] <mdke> ah, the table of contents on that page?
[11:59] <mdke> I think the previous table was very ugly and unwieldy
[11:59] <mdke> i think keeping it simple is easier
[12:00] <apokryphos> not when there are many questions, though. A user has to go that section, then keep scrolling down the page until he finds the question
[12:00] <apokryphos> seeing all the questions as bullet points (and as numbers) would be a lot easier, I think
[12:00] <mdke> as long as the sections are appropriately structured, it should be obvious where the answers are
[12:00] <mdke> but I'd rather discuss it on the list, I don't have much time now
[12:00] <apokryphos> a large table isn't bad as long as it's properly organised (and I think your organisation of it might be better ,indeed )
[12:00] <mdke> I opened a thread specifically about this
[12:01] <apokryphos> I'm not the subscribed to the list, so I would've missed it. Also I wasn't getting emails about changes to the page (perhaps because of the move)
[12:01] <apokryphos> but I'll post on the list, sure
[12:02] <mdke> thanks
[02:41] <enrico> Is there some free LPI ubuntu training material available?
[03:53] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: hello
[03:56] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: i only have a couple of minutes, then i have to go for a day, but here is what I'm thinking...
[03:56] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: I have been thinking about the article->moin stuff
[03:56] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: Now I remember why I stopped working on it
[03:57] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: It's because I realized that the best way to do it is to first do docbook->xhtml with xslt, then do xhtml->moin with xslt
[03:58] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: also, the problem with moin->docbook is that there is a certain minimum level of complexity that is involved due to the nature of mvirkkil: docbook structure and document structure
[03:59] <jeffsch> oops... that should be...
[04:00] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: also, the problem with moin->docbook is that there is a certain minimum level of complexity that is involved due to the nature of docbook structure and document structure
[04:00] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: moin is supposed to be simple, but to make it handle the complexities of a document, you need to make moin not simple
[04:01] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: for example, the admonition macro in moin: how is it more simple and easy to remember than <tip><title></title><para></para></tip>?
[04:01] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: the admonition macro is something like [[admonition,tip, title, text] ] , iirc. It might be easier to type, but same difficulty to remember
[04:02] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: you will need many macros to handle the many docbook tags
[04:02] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: it's probably easier to remember a hundred docbook tags than it is to remember a hundred moin macros
[04:03] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: I'm not striving for 100%, only the 90% that counts :)
[04:03] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: I think that it might be easier to have a single docbook macro in moin
[04:03] <jeffsch> [[docbook] ] , or something
[04:04] <jeffsch> then the moin formatter can turn the docbook processing over to xslt (or whatever) to produce the html
[04:04] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: And I've basically finished my work on moin->docbook. I needed to add Admonition and Insert(into="chapter") macros.
[04:04] <jeffsch> ah cool
[04:04] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: That would be too radical a change at this point. People seem to be happy with what the moin->docbook formatter can do at the moment. It's not perfect, but it's good enough.
[04:05] <jeffsch> yeah... after we use it for awhile we will have a good idea of where to go 
[04:06] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: yeah. The idea people seem to have is to write most of the text in collaboration on a wiki. Then the "official guys" take it, clean it up, and make it ready for primetime.
[04:07] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: have you tested it on random wiki pages yet?
[04:07] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: And this docbook->moin would probably be used for importing half finished projects or projects which need extensive work.
[04:07] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: Yeah. Moins SyntaxReference produces a valid docbook (!)
[04:08] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: Check out http://docbook.wikiwikiweb.de/
[04:08] <mvirkkil> jeffsch: Hmm.. Well, except for the fact that one section contains no data. I used to have a workaround which would put an empty para, but it was ugly, so I removed it.
[04:10] <joachim-n> ah, the eternal wiki->docbook question... :)
[04:10] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: :)
[04:10] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: Any thoughts about the subject?
[04:10] <joachim-n> I think there's a gnome summer of coder looking at it too
[04:10] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: That would be me :P
[04:10] <joachim-n> ah :)
[04:10] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: No wait.
[04:10] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: Sorry.
[04:11] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: I'm the fedora summer coder.
[04:11] <jeffsch> mvirkkil: ok, i have to go to work... talk to you later, and good work!
[04:11] <joachim-n> Goran Raki is the gnome summer coder
[04:11] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: I've talked to the gnome one, but he just wants to make pretty pages from existing docbooks, not edit them much.
[04:11] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: Yup.
[04:11] <joachim-n> right. that's the core focus of his project
[04:12] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: I tried brainstorming with him on how we could collaborate, but it didn't seem to work out really...
[04:13] <joachim-n> the thought I had about it was that there's a lot of clues in the text a parser can use
[04:13] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: There's also a php summer of coder working on php-docs<->docbook
[04:14] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: Yeah. I've been thinking about adding support for a heading row in a table, if the first row's text is bolded.
[04:14] <joachim-n> yeah
[04:14] <joachim-n> I was thinking of things like "choose File->Open... " 
[04:14] <joachim-n> which the parser can guess is a menu command, and wrap it up in the dozens of tags you need for those
[04:21] <mvirkkil> joachim-n: will only work for one language..
[04:22] <joachim-n> ah, the "choose" you mean
[04:23] <joachim-n> just the -> between words then
[04:39] <jsgotangco> ciao
[05:37] <nixternal> moins
[05:38] <CarlFK> the ubuntu-user mail list is a bit overwhelming - Where can I suggest some sub-topics like -sound, networking, apps...
[05:44] <enrico> Is there some free LPI training material for Ubuntu?
[05:58] <mdke_> hi newz2000. Do you have any view yet on bug 51571? I can walk you through fixing it if you agree
[05:58] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 51571 in ubuntu-website "Create a bug contact for the ubuntu-website product" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51571
[05:59] <newz2000> ooh, that's a cool feature
[05:59] <newz2000> let me look
[06:00] <newz2000> ok, I saw that come through, yes
[06:00] <newz2000> I'd appreciate any info on this subject
[06:00] <mdke_> newz2000: for example?
[06:01] <mdke_> you need clarity on what the bug is about?
[06:01] <newz2000> mdke_ yes, that would be helpful.
[06:01] <mdke_> ok
[07:49] <LaserJock> mdke_: still?
[09:03] <nixternal> jjesse_: thank you for the email bud!!
[09:12] <jjesse_> nixternal: np
[09:13] <jjesse_> when does the mtg start?
[09:15] <nixternal> i dont' think it is scheduled yet
[09:16] <jjesse_> ah
[09:17] <nixternal> actually..according to -meeting, it is tuesday
[09:17] <nixternal> however that wasn't on the wiki earlier nor the fridge
[09:17] <nixternal> amarok transfer to ipod is really slow...i dont' know if it is amarok and ipod issue, or the fact i use rockbox..but i don't think rockbox is the issue there
[09:18] <jjesse_> agreed really slow
[09:18] <nixternal> ahh..it is on the wiki now
[09:18] <nixternal> 11 July 2006, 20:00 UTC
[09:18] <nixternal> 15:00 for me, 16:00 for you
[09:18] <jjesse_> grin
[09:21] <nixternal> it is now set in kontact
[09:22] <nixternal> i might sit in and listen to the Edubuntu Cookbook meeting...the work they do over there is neat..and i have been playing with Edubuntu, trying to get my church to use it in the childrens lab
[09:24] <LaserJock> way cool
[09:24] <nixternal> rofl..on the fridge, the "i want a pony" pic, you click it and it has a little girl upset and it says no!!
[09:24] <nixternal> gahaahaha
[09:24] <nixternal> omlord my stomach hurts from that one
[09:42] <LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
[09:59] <mdke_> LaserJock: email... I can't stick around now
[10:01] <LaserJock> mdke_: I just wondered if anybody from -doc was going to the dev meeting
[10:01] <LaserJock> that is going on now
[10:02] <mdke_> not me...
[10:02] <pygi> me :)
[10:05] <mvirkkil> mdke_: seems I can't browse the docteam trunk
[10:05] <jjesse_> i know we talked once before about setting up bzr for ubuntu-docs and iahve access to store it on the doc.ubuntu.com server but i forget how to check it
[10:06] <LaserJock> heh
[10:06] <LaserJock> jjesse_: what do you want to do exactly?
[10:06] <LaserJock> grab the bzr? or push?
[10:06] <jjesse_> yeah grab the bzr
[10:06] <jjesse_> just to play a little w/ it
[10:07] <LaserJock> bzr branch http://doc.ubuntu.com/bzr/ or you can do checkout instead of branch if you want it svn-like
[10:08] <jjesse_> THANKS LaserJock
[10:08] <jjesse_> sorry bout the caps
[10:13] <LaserJock> be forwarned though, it is quite old
[10:13] <LaserJock> I'll try to freshen it up soon
[10:13] <jjesse_> i noticed
[11:02] <mdke_> mvirkkil: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
[11:24] <mvirkkil> mdke: Yah. That was the one I had trouble connecting to... No problems now. Probably a local network glitch.
[11:42] <LaserJock> mdke: ok, apparently I'll try to get a brief doc team report at the next distro meeting :/