/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/07/08/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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nixternala little OT, but i just found some of my first ever type of documentation.... SOP: Operations of the Mobile Fire Arms Range - United States Navy NAVSEAINST 8023.11 | CNETINST 1500.20C04:40
nixternalcompleted 10 years ago04:40
robinteresting, I've written several SOP's myself in the past04:41
nixternalit is funny..i was an E4 then, low ranking, and I wrote the first ever SOP for such a situation..and it is still in effect to this day04:41
robheh04:42
robunchanged?04:42
nixternalonly thing that changed was the lead trap and cleaning it04:42
robah, cool04:42
LaserJockI helped write a Laser SOP for our lab, but that isn't as cool04:46
nixternalhaha04:47
nixternalthat is way cooler 04:48
nixternalLaserJock: sorry, but quit "humping the laser"04:48
nixternalit had to be done04:48
LaserJockyikes, not even a laser in sight04:50
LaserJockexcept for the cd burner04:50
nixternalhaha04:50
=== nixternal don't even want to know
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Madpilothi all07:01
nixternalhiya Madpilot07:03
Madpilothi nixternal 07:03
nixternalany idea how to add an image like ubuntu-au did at https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-au07:03
nixternalim trying to do one for ubuntu-chicago07:03
MadpilotI think it's the "hackergotchi" link07:04
Madpilotyeah, it is07:04
nixternalhmm..i don't see where to do that with the team07:04
Madpiloton my user page, it's one of the links halfway down the blue panel on the left07:05
nixternalon the user page ya..but this is a team page07:05
MadpilotI've no idea how team pages differ, not being a team admin myself07:07
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Madpilotyou could always bug one of the .au team's admins and ask how they did it07:07
nixternalthats what i am planning on next 07:07
nixternalhehe07:07
nixternalgah.bimberi07:08
nixternalaustralians are running late tonight07:08
=== mpt__ rubs his eyes
nixternalhaha07:09
nixternalheya mpt07:09
mptGood ... evening!07:09
Burgundaviahttp://ubuntu.ca/Edubuntu-casestudy.png07:11
Burgundaviathoughts?07:11
BurgundaviaMadpilot: you got a lipsum generator somwhere?07:13
MadpilotBurgundavia, sure - let me find the URL for you07:13
Madpilothttp://www.lipsum.com/07:13
MadpilotNice front cover - where's the rest of it? ;)07:14
Burgundaviait would be a single page07:14
Madpilotah, OK07:16
Madpilotin that case, tuck "Case Study" up with the Edubuntu name/logo - that's the title of the thing, after all07:17
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Burgundaviaok, cut and paste is driving me nuts07:24
Burgundaviafor some reason, epiphany is not pasting to inkscape07:24
MadpilotInkscape has some known cut & paste bugs07:25
Burgundaviagrumble07:28
Burgundaviagrumble more as text importation fails to work07:29
Burgundaviabut scribus has as interface that is only marginally better than the gimps07:30
Burgundaviain other words, far far inferior to that of inkscape07:30
Burgundavialook at that image again07:40
Madpilotnice07:42
Madpilotis that TuxLab logo really as low-res as it seems in that screenshot?07:42
robotgeekhttp://shiftingpixel.com/lightbox/ is the coolest greasemonkey extension07:42
Burgundaviayes, yes it is07:42
BurgundaviaI grabbed it quickly07:42
MadpilotBurgundavia, can you scrounge up an SVG TuxLab image, or at least a high-res one?07:43
BurgundaviaI will once, I write the actual text07:43
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BurgundaviaI put it there merely for illustrative purposes07:43
Madpilotgood - the layout itself looks good, anyway07:44
BurgundaviaI did copy it from nearly every case study out there07:44
Burgundaviaback side is going to have text from that EdubuntuSchoolAdvocacy thingy07:45
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MadpilotBurgundavia, random layout point: first paragraphs of sections don't need to be indented, generally07:53
Madpilotso, Matt East challenged Michael Richter on -sounder to put up or shut up WRT the modem/getting online docs - wonder when we can expect Michael's first patch to the list? ;)07:57
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mvirkkilI'm putting up a newer work-in-progress version of the docbook->moinmoin converter: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/db2mm/08:48
mvirkkilIt only supports converting single articles or single chapters, graphics don't work yet etc.08:49
jsgotangcoi will check08:50
nixternalnice work on that btw mvirkkil08:51
mvirkkilnixternal: Thanks :)08:54
robitailleis that new?  http://ubuntuos.com/   Never heard of them until tonight09:11
nixternalrobitaille: they have been up for about a month09:13
nixternalthey did a Riddell podcast09:13
nixternali don't approve of their site for one reason, i went on to check it out, and my daughter was on my lap, and their was a half naked woman and an a$$ in a g-string in the ad's up top09:14
nixternalmy daughter is 10 and probably caught worse on tv, but still09:14
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nixternalnow they removed their ads09:15
Madpilotnixternal, adblocking is a wonderful thing - I didn't even know there were banners on that site09:15
nixternalthere isn't any more..or i am ad blocking again09:15
robitailleyou should block ads in your browser.  I didn't even knew they had an ad on their page :)09:15
Madpilotinteresting read: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2006/07/06/rethinking-community-documentation.html09:15
nixternali just looked..it seems like they had enough complaints09:15
nixternalthat looks like a good read09:16
MadpilotI've just bookmarked it to finish tomorrow - need sleep very soon here09:17
nixternalme too09:18
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mdke_morning10:27
Burgundaviamorning mdke_10:29
jsgotangcohello10:30
FujitsuEvening.10:30
=== mdke_ wonders why he gets so much spam encouraging him to be a better lover
mdke_someone is trying to tell me something :/10:35
=== Fujitsu wonders the same.
FujitsuYou cut off your tail! Self mutilation is not an option!10:36
mvirkkilmdke: hi10:36
jsgotangcothank you for using the ubuntu.com email spam service10:37
FujitsuHahahahah10:37
mvirkkilmdke: I "published" a version of the xslt:s with my additions. Still no support for graphics.10:39
mdkejsgotangco: nod10:44
mdkemvirkkil: right, nice10:44
mvirkkilmdke: I'll need to test it and develop it a bit further, but over the next few days I won't have much time for it. So I thought I'd put a snapshot out for the time being.10:47
mvirkkilit should map procedures to numberedlists, and variablelists to bulletlists10:48
mvirkkiljeffsch: --^10:48
mdkemvirkkil: I'll upload it to the repository if you send it to me10:50
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mptyo yo yo10:51
=== Fujitsu wonders why somebody like mpt would be saying that.
jsgotangcomdke: dapper-commercial gets reflected if you have dapper-updates and app-install-data is refreshed10:57
jsgotangcobut yeah it wasn't clearly indicated10:57
jsgotangcoits relatively new and was under discussion in paris10:57
Burgundaviamdke: I believe dapper-commercial is hosted on canonical servers, rather an Ubuntu ones (yes, there is not much difference)10:57
jsgotangcoyes10:57
jsgotangcobut nonetheless you can't get into dapper-commercial if you don't have the appropriate app-install-data10:58
mdkejsgotangco: only in gnome-app-install11:01
mdkeBurgundavia: quite interesting that article which disapproves...11:01
mdkehe has a point11:01
jsgotangcomdke: you're supposed to use g-a-i by default11:02
mdkejsgotangco: right, but no one does11:02
mdkeand not adding it to apt is a significant problem11:03
=== jsgotangco thinks its your issue not the majority of people
BurgundaviaI agree with mdke11:03
mdkedude, do you use gnome-app-install?11:03
jsgotangcohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpdateManagerEdgyRepo11:03
mdketo install EVERYTHING?11:03
Burgundavianot adding it to apt is a bizarre decision11:03
jsgotangcomdke: i patch to g-a-i? duh!11:03
mdkejsgotangco: so?11:03
jsgotangcoyour point?11:04
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mdkejsgotangco: you can code on something and not use it to install things11:04
Burgundaviaultimately, things like Opera are not really going to hurt Ubuntu11:04
crimsunmdke: which article?11:04
mdkeespecially given that you can't install everything in it11:04
jsgotangcomdke: dude its not perfect but don't say it doesn't work11:04
mpteh11:04
mptFinally Opera shows up in g-a-i for me, but it's 8.5.111:04
mptI thought it was supposed to be version 9 :-/11:04
mdkecrimsun: http://opensource.apress.com/article/44/opera-makes-ubuntu-sing-a-sad-song11:05
crimsunthanks11:05
mdkejsgotangco: I'm not saying it doesn't work11:05
mdkeI'm saying most people don't use it11:05
crimsun9.00-20060616.7  500 http://archive.canonical.com dapper-commercial/main Packages11:05
jsgotangcoso its a waste of developer resource11:05
mdkejsgotangco: no, I'm simply saying there is little point adding opera to gnome-app-install, and not helping to include it in sources.list11:06
mdkeespecially if the repo exists11:06
crimsunyou two are talking past each other11:06
jsgotangcodude you're not SUPPOSED to put anything in your sources.list by hand if you're using g-a-i11:06
mdkejsgotangco: you're intentionally missing my point, which is that loads of people don't use g-a-i11:07
jsgotangcogive me a stat11:07
mpt>1 graphical package management program => madness11:07
jsgotangcoim not missing the point11:07
mdkeme, Burgundavia, mpt, crimsun 11:07
mdkeright?11:07
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mptI used g-a-i to install a couple of games11:07
mdkeme too11:07
Burgundaviasame as well11:07
mptbecause using synaptic to find games is awful11:07
BurgundaviaI checked it out to see opera11:08
crimsunjsgotangco: he's not arguing that g-a-i is or isn't the proper way; he's lamenting a particularly common use case11:08
crimsun(hence you two talking past each other)11:08
jsgotangcosorry language barrier coming, i didnt understand what it meant11:08
crimsunboth of your concerns are valid, but you're addressing different things :)11:09
Burgundaviawe all agree that gai is the preferred method, however users have different ideas11:09
Burgundaviahence mdke's concern about opera only being easily available via gai11:09
mdkeright11:09
jsgotangcoapp-data-install has all that data and opera wasn't there in the first place if it was, it should have been made easy11:10
jsgotangcohence a dapper-update was made on the said package11:10
Burgundaviabut those who don't use gai have an issue11:10
Burgundaviathere is no other graphical way to add it to your sources.list11:10
mdkejsgotangco: the repository exists (apparently), so it can be added to sources.list and made available in _other_ package managers too11:10
jsgotangcoprobably on purpose? i dunno, ask mdz he's the one who uploaded an updated app-install-data11:10
crimsun(this is a case where Debian pedigree can actually be a "detriment", since people tend to muck with sources.list regardless)11:10
Burgundaviaand mucking with sources.list is known source of pain11:11
mdkeit could easily have been added to software-properties11:11
jsgotangcofeel free to comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpdateManagerEdgyRepo11:11
mvirkkilmdke: It's up at http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/db2mm/db2mm-0.4/, I don't have access to anything except a browser and IRC at the moment.11:11
jsgotangcowe made the mockup with a UI specialist11:11
crimsunI'm pretty guilty of it myself; I say "add the universe repo" et al.11:11
robheh, I muck with it all the time, but then I don't use gai at all11:11
jsgotangcoits already in the dev tree11:11
mvirkkilmdke: I was more like hoping to get some feedback on what you guys would still want to see implemented.11:12
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mptmvirkkil, implemented for what? (sorry for clowning in halfway through the conversation)11:14
jsgotangcohmm omnis studio is also in app-install-data-commercial11:15
mdkemvirkkil: that's great, I'll download it thanks11:15
mdkempt: mvirkkil is working in the SOC moin<->docbook tools11:15
mdkein/on11:15
mptoh, nothing to do with g-a-i then :-)11:16
=== mpt can't really comment, he doesn't know DocBook that well
mdkemvirkkil: do you want to tar it up for me? :)11:17
mptI reported a bug on the Yelp style sheets yesterday saying "<varname> should be in italics, we're having to use <emphasis> instead", and got a reply back within a couple of hours saying "no, you should be using <replaceable>"11:17
mdkefor what?11:18
mptfor things like <screen>apt-get install <replaceable>package-name</replaceable></screen>11:18
mvirkkilmdke: As I said, can't at the moment :/11:19
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mdkemvirkkil: oh yeah. sorry11:19
mvirkkilmdke: I just put it up before I left home.11:19
mpthttp://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/replaceable.html11:20
mdkempt: got it11:20
jsgotangcointeresting11:21
mdkemvirkkil: i'll put it at http://doc.ubuntu.com/~matt11:21
mdkenow that I've found out public_html is enabled on that server >_<11:21
jsgotangcois that the svn server?11:22
mdkeno, that's our server11:22
mdkemvirkkil: uploaded11:22
=== jsgotangco lost his access to it already
mvirkkilmpt: Any preferance what moin markup you want to have it as? 11:22
mptmvirkkil, have what as?11:23
mdkemvirkkil: however it is with the nwalsh stylesheets is likely to be a good default11:23
mptoh, various DocBook elements?11:23
mptwell, DocBook -> Moin will be lossy because DocBook is semantic while Moin is presentational11:24
mvirkkilmpt: yeah.11:24
mdkempt: you can assume mvirkkil knows quite a lot about that sort of thing11:24
mpt:-)11:24
mvirkkilmpt: When I'm going from moin->docbook I'm doing a bit of trickery, to get some extra information.11:24
mptmdke, if you've had a chance to look at my patch, how should I continue? Carry on with the other sections, or am I doing several things wrong?11:25
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mvirkkilmpt: Or at least I'm planning to check if the first row of a table has all the texts bolded, and make it a heading row in docbook, etc.11:25
mptmvirkkil, nifty!11:25
mvirkkilmpt: But now I'm focusing on basic functionality.11:26
mptmvirkkil, and `foo` on a line by itself is probably <screen></screen> ...11:26
mdkempt: I haven't yet. But I'd like to talk about any changes to conventions of using different tags and so on on the list if possible.11:26
mvirkkilmpt: well moin already has {{{ for codeblocks.11:26
mptsure11:26
mdkewe need to develop consistency and include some things like that in the styleguide11:26
mvirkkilmpt: But for example {{{#python will get mapped in to a programlisting, etc.11:26
mptmvirkkil, true, but many are just a single line11:26
=== mdke goes for a shower
mvirkkilmpt: If its something that needs to be inline {{{hello}}} it gets mapped to code, at the moment.11:27
mptmdke, I think the biggest issue is what structure we should be moving towards for a unified help11:27
mvirkkilmpt: If it's not inline, it gets mapped to screen or programlisting.11:27
mptwhether the Desktop Guide should embrace and extend everything, or have top-level documents called things like "Music & Media" and "Setting up a server"11:28
mvirkkilOne of the niftier parts of the whole conversion, is that you can make structurally complex tables using the wikisyntax. Like cells spanning several columns, and/or rows. Alignment etc also works.11:28
mpts/have/the various documents should be split into/11:28
Fujitsumpt, you forgot the extinguish part.11:29
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Fujitsu:O11:29
Fujitsumpt is Microsoft!11:29
mpt:-(11:29
FujitsuIf you embrace, extend and extinguish, that's the only possibility!11:30
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mptI'll leave the extending to the spammers11:31
FujitsuBwahahaha.11:31
mptApple does a fair bit of embracing and extending too11:33
FujitsuYeah, but they don't extinguish too much.11:34
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mptAudion, Watson, Internet Explorer for Mac, Konfabulator11:35
mptfour examples that come to mind11:35
jsgotangcogoing to the mall bbl11:36
mptthough Internet Explorer for Mac is more to do with Microsoft taking their ball and going home11:36
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mptWatson is the most odious example, because Sherlock has been utterly neglected ever since11:39
mdkempt: sure, that's a separate issue, we definitely need to get that sorted out quickly if it's an option for edgy11:42
mdkempt: re the tag changes, if you could summarise the changes you've done and post to the list, that would be really helpful11:43
mptok11:43
mdkemaybe include some at DocumentationTeam/DocbookTags11:43
mdkei have to disappear for a bit now, see you later11:44
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mptok11:45
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Kamping_Kaiserdoes ubuntu have any info on setting up nat/other ip forwarding? i'm trawling around trying to find info, so if not i'm willing to try and start a page12:47
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mptmdke, sent01:01
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mpthttp://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/4172802:09
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smittenHello.05:47
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smittenI would like feedback on #337584 in the GNOME bugzilla..  It is an interface change to Yelp (for the better I hope).  Please respond on the bug or on the mailing list gnome-doc-devel-list@gnome.org06:25
smittenthanks06:25
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