[12:24] <zul> i know this might be a long shot but mdz ping
[12:36] <mdz> zul: pong
[12:37] <zul> mdz; should the quieten grub be turned on by default when the user runs update-grub?
[12:39] <mdz> zul: yes; it should be the default for the standard boot (though not for recovery)
[12:39] <zul> ok
[12:39] <mdz> I
[12:40] <mdz> I believe update-grub already has variables set up for that
[12:40] <mdz> default options for standard and recovery mode boots
[12:40] <zul> correct..i just have to add quiet to it
[03:09] <floam> I seem to be terrible at manipulating this wiki -- is edgy targeting 2.6.18?
[03:09] <zul> no
[03:10] <floam> so it's still going to be using 2.16.17 upon release? 
[03:10] <floam> errr
[03:10] <neuralis> yes.
[03:10] <floam> 2.6.17
[03:10] <floam> yikes. I wonder why that changed, I thought originally they planned on aiming at .18
[03:12] <floam> guess I'll get to maintain my own kernel for another iteration
[03:12] <Hobbsee> floam: no, they were never aiming for .18
[03:12] <floam> Hobbsee: are you sure? I know I heard something about .18 six months ago or so.
[03:13] <floam> maybe it was someone who had no idea what's going on.
[03:13] <Hobbsee> floam: likely off the forums, yeah.  they still swear that .18 will get in.
[03:13] <floam> no, I don't read forums :P
[03:13] <floam> I think it was in bugzilla/launchpad somewhere
[03:13] <Hobbsee> or off someone who had read the forums
[03:13] <Hobbsee> that too - a wishlist.
[03:14] <floam> that could be, web forums are really good at spreading false information
[03:14] <zul> very
[03:15] <floam> normally I couldn't care less about the kernel, but my poor little serial ata dvd burner needs special love that supposedly come with it.
[03:15] <neuralis> i never quite got that; the forums exert zero actual direct influence, but seem to be sufficiently large and self-contained that they go on, pretending this just isn't so.
[03:15] <floam> s/come/comes/
[03:16] <sharms> can someone explain why 2.6.18 would not be included if the kernel freeze isn't til october? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule
[03:16] <floam> neuralis: thank your deity it can't exert force
[03:16] <neuralis> floam: clearly.
[03:16] <floam> at least it functions as a good playpen
[03:16] <Hobbsee> neuralis: yeah, that's true.  it is kinda useful if you're looking to see how edgy is running at the moment.
[03:16] <Hobbsee> sharms: because UVF is on the 13th.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> after the 13th, you get 2.6.17-x-* changes only
[03:17] <floam> 13th of which month?
[03:17] <sharms> July
[03:17] <Hobbsee> floam: this one
[03:17] <floam> wow, that feels early
[03:17] <floam> is this release iteration shorter than dapper was?
[03:18] <floam> (when is it supposed to come out?)
[03:18] <Hobbsee> floam: yes, it's half the time.
[03:18] <jono> jdub, ping
[03:18] <neuralis> Hobbsee: i find the forums perfectly useful, in that they've kept 133733 people from posting 1226284 messages to -devel.
[03:18] <floam> okay, then it makes perfect sense that they wouldn't use 2.6.18
[03:18] <Hobbsee> neuralis: hehe, that's true also
[03:18] <floam> I thought there was twice as much time as there is
[03:19] <floam> worse than the howtos are their little patented fixer scripts
[03:19] <neuralis> haha. the horror, the horror..
[03:19] <Hobbsee> true, when then cause more bugs.
[03:19] <sharms> I just install everything with --force
[03:19] <floam> yes, plus they don't use apt at all, from what I've seen
[03:19] <Hobbsee> actually, to be fair, i havent had trouble with the system bootup one - about stopping unneeded services
[03:20] <floam> they have scripts that just wget crap, build it, overwrite installed stuff
[03:20] <Hobbsee> (why is my laptop staring bluez-utils - i've got nothing even related to bluetooth on here - no bluetooth port, either!)
[03:21] <floam> they distribute a script to remove sysv services there?
[03:21] <Hobbsee> floam: not a script, it's manual.
[03:21] <floam> couldn't they just tell you to how to alter the symlinks or install sysvconfig or something
[03:22] <neuralis> floam: or, er, use update-rc.d, if you need to remove things?
[03:22] <Hobbsee> "this process is this and does this, and is on default runlevels x, y, z, it is fine/is not fine to turn it off"
[03:22] <Hobbsee> that type of idea
[03:22] <floam> there's that too, I'm too lazy to figure out what the tool of the year is
[03:22] <sharms> seems like a standard control panel for services under system->administration would be a good usability idea
[03:23] <Hobbsee> sharms: write one :P
[03:23] <sharms> I might, but if I do it's probably pygtk
[03:23] <Hobbsee> so?
[03:23] <floam> so it probably wouldn't get into main
[03:24] <floam> (which sucks, I can't believe in 2006 people are still suffering with C/GObject)
[03:24] <sharms> agreed
[03:25] <floam> though GObject doesn't map very well into python's bindings either
[03:25] <slomo> why wouldn't it get into main because of pygtk?
[03:25] <slomo> gnome-app-install, language-selector, $whatever are pygtk too ;)
[03:25] <sharms> I was thinking just the extra dependencies on a default install would be bad
[03:25] <sharms> but maybe I was dropped on the head as a small child
[03:25] <floam> are they? I thought people generally frowned upon it.
[03:26] <floam> but maybe not. I was dropped on my head a decent number of times
[03:27] <slomo> just take a look at the packages ;)
[03:27] <floam> yes, you're correct
[03:27] <Hobbsee> hi slomo 
[03:27] <slomo> hi Hobbsee :)
[03:28] <Hobbsee> bye all!
[03:28] <floam> sharms: apparently they aren't extra dependencies, it already comes with pygtk et al
[03:28] <sharms> gotcha
[03:28] <floam> when I take over the world I'm going to force gnome to stop using C, decide on C++ or Objective C, and then force some of my other slaves to write some decent bindings
[03:29] <floam> a dictatorship is only bad when the dictator sucks
[03:29] <floam> oh hell, maybe I'll force them to all work on GNUStep
[03:31] <sharms> does anything stop me from just chopping up fedora/redhat's services manager?  It appears to be GPL
[03:31] <neuralis> sharms: you know about services-admin, correct?
[03:31] <floam> what's wrong with the one that's in dapper?
[03:32] <floam> right, services-admin
[03:32] <floam> it's clearly overly simplified, but you could fix that
[03:32] <floam> since I can't really figure out what checking and unchecking does to the specific runlevels
[03:32] <sharms> I am not seeing a way to deactively bluez through services-admin
[03:33] <floam> it probably has a table of services it "knows about"
[03:33] <floam> with icons and descriptions and whatnot.
[03:33] <sharms> just seems ironic I can turn off klogd but not bluetooth :)
[03:33] <floam> it shouldn't be too difficult to add the bluetooth stuff
[03:33] <floam> (surely much easier than writing your own manager)
[03:34] <sharms> what package is that a part of?
[03:34] <floam> gnome system tools
[03:34] <floam> gnome-system-tools, that is
[03:35] <sharms> got it
[09:53] <trulux> moin
[09:53] <trulux> what's the current status of edgy for sparc64?
[09:53] <trulux> do the current netboot images work out of the box?
[09:54] <trulux> or it's recommended to use dapper instead?
[09:58] <techmad> i dont think its recommended to use edgy for anything yet 
[09:58] <techmad> so i would stick to dapper :)
[09:59] <trulux> ok, thanks
[09:59] <trulux> hmm
[10:00] <trulux> does the server-type installation work out of the box with netboot?
[10:00] <trulux> ex. used instead of desktop
[10:00] <trulux> over there: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=185136&highlight=sparc
[10:00] <trulux> they mention using a .seed file
[10:00] <trulux> boot net preseed/url=http://192.168.1.20/ubuntu-server.seed
[10:00] <trulux> any idea?
[10:01] <techmad> do you want a desktop gui?
[10:01] <trulux> in sparc64? hell, no
[10:01] <trulux> hah
[10:02] <techmad> i dont know much about out of the box with netboot you could ask over in #ubuntu
[10:03] <trulux> let's check
[10:03] <trulux> afaik most distro user-related channels are mad houses
[10:03] <trulux> and answers range from the provoking-noobish to totally-rude
[10:03] <trulux> anyways....
[10:04] <trulux> :)
[11:22] <sivang> morning all
[01:15] <trulux> moin
[01:18] <pitti> Hello
[01:19] <jsgotangco> pitti: hi!
[01:22] <sivang> hey pitti 
[01:22] <slomo> hi pitti :)
[01:22] <sivang> pitti: working on sunday or just checking emails as always :)
[01:24] <pitti> hi jsgotangco 
[01:37] <trulux> hey pitti
[01:38] <tseng> hey trulux 
[01:38] <trulux> hmm, latest dapper netboot image is halting in a Sun Netra X1
[01:38] <trulux> tseng, how's life?
[01:38] <tseng> trulux: good, you?
[01:38] <tseng> I am fighting SSP atm
[01:39] <tseng> maybe you saw, we turned it on everywhere after all
[01:39] <trulux> tseng, I'm preparing a showcase for some win32/crossplatform stuff
[01:39] <trulux> I didn't read about it
[01:39] <trulux> isn't that kind of brave as Ubuntu has tons of multimedia-related stuff?
[01:39] <tseng> if we build gcc (libgcc_s specifically) with ssp, it bombs building mono
[01:40] <trulux> brb
[01:40] <slomo> not only building mono
[01:40] <trulux> yeah
[01:40] <tseng> trulux: we'll see :)
[01:40] <slomo> but running something with mono
[01:40] <slomo> on ppc
[01:40] <trulux> expect that for most applications that do strange stuff with runtime code generation
[01:40] <tseng> slomo: does mono link in libgcc somehow?
[01:40] <slomo> tseng: sure
[01:40] <tseng> ok.
[01:40] <trulux> fortunately in win2k sp4 I don't have such problems. all the 0days work
[01:40] <tseng> hah!
[01:41] <slomo> tseng: oh... no it doesn't
[01:41] <trulux> it's awesome
[01:41] <trulux> tseng, no, seriously
[01:41] <trulux> tseng, if you ever knew a bit of what MS has done to XP and friends...
[01:42] <slomo> tseng: hm i thought everything is using libgcc but for some reason mono doesn't even use it... so how can it segfault in libgcc then? =)
[01:42] <tseng> slomo: no idea!
[01:43] <tseng> not p/invoked?
[01:43] <slomo> that would be insane
[01:43] <tseng> it would..
[01:43] <tseng> but its mono
[01:44] <tseng> you know
[01:44] <tseng> the JIT has ppc specific areas
[01:44] <tseng> its per-arch
[01:44] <tseng> could be in there (again)
[01:45] <slomo> right... looking for libgcc on i386 isn't very useful then ;)
[01:45] <slomo> one moment
[01:45] <trulux> anyone knows about this sparc stuff?
[01:45] <trulux> it's really a showstopper
[01:45] <tseng> trulux: which stuff
[01:46] <slomo> tseng: no, same on ppc... it doesn't like with libgcc directly
[01:46] <tseng> it looks like the GC uses it
[01:46] <tseng> from a grep
[01:47] <slomo> right, i found something new btw ;)
[01:47] <tseng> yes?
[01:47] <slomo> i didn't tell you yet but the segfault happens on finalizing an object
[01:47] <slomo> => GC is a good direction :)
[01:47] <tseng> bingo?
[01:47] <tseng> we could..
[01:47] <trulux> tseng, the latest netboot image for sparc64, dapper
[01:47] <tseng> try another GC backend
[01:47] <tseng> or disable GC completely
[01:47] <trulux> jesus, I must get bac to work out tomorrow
[01:48] <tseng> trulux: ah. no idea.
[01:48] <trulux> tseng, I may be an army guy soon ;P
[01:48] <slomo> tseng: we could try linking with the system libgc instead of the internal one
[01:48] <tseng> trulux: btw, I was near Barcelona last week
[01:48] <slomo> tseng: because that works... inkscape works
[01:48] <tseng> trulux: nice place
[01:48] <tseng> slomo: sure
[01:48] <tseng> slomo: miguel will kick and scream if you ship it though
[01:49] <tseng> just for testing
[01:49] <slomo> tseng: i'll try it now... thanks for the pointer to the obvious :)
[01:49] <slomo> tseng: if he screams he should fix it instead :P
[01:49] <tseng> slomo: go team mono!
[01:49] <slomo> tseng: we use it for freebsd on debian already because mono's libgc is broken there
[01:50] <tseng> huh
[01:50] <tseng> big usebase :)
[01:50] <tseng> user
[01:50] <trulux> tseng, I see, well, I personally dislike Barcelona and mostly any place here, maybe because I live around rather than spending a holidays weekend :P
[01:51] <tseng> trulux: not saying id like to move in for good :)
[01:51] <tseng> its awfully hot
[01:51] <trulux> and full of Spanish guys
[01:51] <slomo> tseng: would be nice if the new GC will be default for 1.2... this way we don't need to ship the libgc copy anymore
[01:51] <tseng> true
[01:51] <tseng> but an all new GC is kind of scary
[01:51] <tseng> on such short notice
[01:51] <sivang> trulux: Barcelona is beautifull AFAIR, in what ways do you dislike it? :)
[01:51] <trulux> tseng, I have relocation plans so far
[01:52] <trulux> sivang, I don't like .es
[01:52] <slomo> tseng: it's scary, yes... but at least the ideas and design seem to be very nice ;)
[01:52] <sivang> trulux: hmm, could it be that we talked about it alreayd? :p
[01:52] <tseng> slomo: we can test build it in 1.1.16
[01:52] <tseng> slomo: for fun.
[01:52] <trulux> sivang, sure, everyone who has met me once knows I'm a .es hater
[01:53] <tseng> slomo: interesting
[01:53] <tseng> slomo: mono-1.1..../docs/exceptions
[01:54] <tseng> talks about the stack unwinding
[01:54] <straycat> an advice for fans of linux distros: is there real significance in caring about new versions of a distro? it's mostly a face-lift of the FORM; if you really want to contribute to a public endeavor, join Wikipedia or MIT OCW; those are really about develoopment of useful CONTENT.
[01:54] <tseng> and the use of libgcc
[01:54] <Hobbsee> hi all
[01:54] <trulux> BenC, you are one of the sparc guys right?
[01:55] <slomo> tseng: could you paste the relevant part to a pastebin?
[01:55] <tseng> slomo: ok.
[01:55] <hunger> straycat: I like the contents already... it's the form that needs improvement.
[01:55] <trulux> tseng, any other non-ssp plans on mind?
[01:55] <tseng> trulux: finish merging mono stuff
[01:55] <tseng> trulux: maybe poke a few gnome things.
[01:55] <slomo> tseng: the F11->middle mouse button mapping is gone on latest edgy :(
[01:55] <tseng> or you mean security wise?
[01:55] <trulux> sec. wise
[01:55] <tseng> i heard someone was looking at ASLR again
[01:56] <tseng> I am only up on SSP
[01:56] <tseng> because its biting me in the arse :P
[01:56] <trulux> ASLR? it's now on vanilla kernel since many time ago...
[01:56] <tseng> really.
[01:56] <damo22> anyone tried patching ubuntu kernel source 2.6.15 to 2.6.15-rt9 with ingo's patch.... 
[01:57] <damo22> ubuntu needs realtime preemption
[01:57] <trulux> tseng, really to the ASLR thing?
[01:57] <tseng> slomo: http://pastebin.ca/83160
[01:57] <tseng> trulux: yes, I didnt know
[01:57] <tseng> trulux: but im way out of kernels these days
[01:57] <trulux> I wouldn't touch ASLR, really :)
[01:58] <trulux> unless you want to break applications that Canonical allegedly supports
[01:58] <trulux> ala DB2, etc
[01:58] <trulux> even MySQL if you take it the hardcore way
[01:58] <slomo> tseng: *compiling*
[01:58] <tseng> slomo: woo.
[01:59] <sivang> what's ASLR ?
[01:59] <tseng> address space layout randomization
[01:59] <tseng> does pretty much what it says.
[01:59] <slomo> iirc they plan it for edgy+1... pitti?
[02:00] <sivang> tseng: for data protection, that is ?
[02:00] <tseng> sivang: yes.
[02:00] <tseng> makes canned code injection and stuff like this harder
[02:00] <sivang> tseng: cool, could be pribably applied for the good in GPGP
[02:00] <trulux> guys, I'm getting pretty annoyed with this sparc thing
[02:00] <tseng> its in the kernel
[02:00] <trulux> I'll end putting Solaris
[02:00] <trulux> :(
[02:01] <tseng> trulux: it is sunday, most folks dont work
[02:01] <sivang> tseng: ah, so everything is automatially protected and scrambled
[02:01] <tseng> sivang: yes.
[02:01] <Hobbsee> tseng: most :P
[02:01] <Hobbsee> hi sivang 
[02:01] <trulux> tseng, have you seen this? 8http://www.ubuntu.com/employment#head-ee181be4e2f101318f548b6e62a74711085e9224)
[02:01] <trulux> I'm kidding on solaris
[02:01] <tseng> trulux: yep.
[02:01] <trulux> it's enough waste of space to keep one VM here with x86 solaris
[02:01] <tseng> trulux: you've applied?
[02:02] <trulux> tseng, have you done so? I was going to let you know about it for applying)
[02:02] <trulux> I sent a CV
[02:02] <tseng> trulux: nope, I am very happy with my job
[02:02] <tseng> and been out of this area for too long to be of any use
[02:02] <trulux> hah
[02:02] <trulux> I'm getting now more into datamining and win32 stuff
[02:03] <sivang> trulux: win32 ? :)
[02:03] <trulux> I'm sick of software wars
[02:03] <trulux> yeah
[02:03] <trulux> tseng, I'm mostly making a living out of the 0day stuff
[02:03] <sivang> 0day ?
[02:04] <trulux> tseng, It's a bitchy ground because it sucks a lot of time for ensuring at leas a 2k check per month
[02:04] <trulux> and you literally feel lost sometimes, as there's no established path of work
[02:04] <tseng> yeah.
[02:04] <trulux> so basically I try to blow up everythign else that falls in my hands
[02:04] <trulux> I've made around 2k the past month
[02:05] <trulux> some people don't like that such a business is growing
[02:06] <trulux> Scanning disks... < here it hangs
[02:06] <trulux> at 41%
[02:06] <trulux> damn it
[02:06] <trulux> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-77190.html
[02:06] <Fjodor> Anyone know of a bug where the machine reboots right after grub/lilo on a server install. Can't seem to find any?
[02:07] <sivang> trulux: what th 0day bussiness?
[02:08] <damo22> is ubuntu owned by canonical? canonical hires ppl to work on ubuntu?? 
[02:08] <tseng> damo22: the second one
[02:08] <trulux> sivang, selling information on undiscosed security flaws, generally in widely used products in the enterprise business
[02:08] <tseng> canonical also owns all of the hosting/building hardware if you are a conspiracy theorist
[02:09] <trulux> heh, indirectly Canonical owns Ubuntu
[02:09] <trulux> without Canonical , it would be something else, and I bet the people being paid to work on it would do whatever Canonical does
[02:09] <trulux> a contract is a contract, everywhere
[02:10] <damo22> so ubuntu isnt just the result of people giving up their free time to do what they love?
[02:10] <tseng> it is for me, and a bunch of others here
[02:11] <tseng> most of "core-dev" is employeed by canonical, however
[02:11] <damo22> :)
[02:11] <damo22> okay
[02:11] <tseng> anyone can join in
[02:12] <damo22> i think its a beautiful way to share knowledge, but im sure there are big commercial opportunities and niches for people to take advantage of
[02:14] <trulux> hmm
[02:15] <trulux> etch can be considered "stable"?
[02:15] <trulux> tseng, I'm going to try out etch netboot images
[02:15] <trulux> to see if I can reproduce the damn issue
[02:15] <damo22> canonical must see that... i guess they have vested interest in making ubuntu the best linux distro 
[02:17] <damo22> but then, how different from microsoft would that be? :P
[02:17] <tseng> its very different
[02:17] <tseng> you cant download the source from microsoft, start submitting patches, and become a key member
[02:17] <tseng> and help guide the entire project
[02:17] <damo22> true
[02:17] <tseng> thats huge.
[02:18] <damo22> definitely
[02:18] <dsas> damo22: Also members of the Technical and Community councils which guide Ubuntu aren't all canonical employees
[02:19] <damo22> i see, thats good 
[02:21] <trulux> tseng, there's some nice people at MS
[02:22] <trulux> maybe the just take more time to understand the points, but they finally are getting to something else good
[02:23] <tseng> I am sure they are "nice".
[02:23] <damo22> i would say that as a thorough user of ubuntu, i can see that it could bring to life old hardware to be used in schools... but it still has a few bumps to iron out to make it really stable for that purpose
[02:23] <tseng> my comment had nothing to do with it
[02:24] <trulux> damo22, is getting too focused on the shiny details, at least that's my opinion
[02:24] <trulux> less QA maybe
[02:24] <tseng> linux has bugs.
[02:25] <trulux> at Red Hat they do tons of QA work
[02:25] <damo22> QA?
[02:25] <trulux> and they get to meet and work with the right people
[02:25] <trulux> quality assurance
[02:26] <damo22> u think ubuntu is focussing too much on the "eye-candy" for desktop?
[02:26] <trulux> yes, so to speak
[02:26] <damo22> i agree
[02:26] <tseng> we dont really spend much time at all on "eye-candy"
[02:27] <trulux> ...
[02:27] <trulux> yes you do :)
[02:27] <trulux> and doing a big marketing
[02:27] <trulux> that's Canonical's job actually
[02:27] <tseng> haha "big marketing"
[02:27] <trulux> I expected you to smile at least on that one ;P
[02:29] <damo22> its difficult to talk about things in a very general sense without pointing out specific problems, but i think people generally like to see a desktop that is familiar, with all the simple tasks easily accessible... of course the underlying OS is even more important, but general users dont see that 
[02:33] <damo22> i think the great freedom of choice available to users for different applications makes it difficult to unify this idea and achieve the goal. 
[02:33] <damo22> thats probably why ubuntu seems to have spent a lot of time on "eye-candy"
[02:44] <damo22> id like to suggest something for the next release.... a realtime preemptive (multimedia) kernel so musicians (like me) dont have to compile their own kernel
[02:44] <tseng> trulux: how many bytes is the ssp header/trailer
[02:45] <tseng> trulux: 4?
[02:51] <trulux> tseng, what do you mean, the functon "prologue" from SSP?
[02:52] <damo22> id really like to know how to obtain the ubuntu kernel patches as a patch for the vanilla kernel...
[02:52] <tseng> trulux: yes.
[02:52] <trulux> tseng, I think it was a simple cmp to the address of the guard
[02:52] <trulux> dunno right now
[02:52] <trulux> what do you need to do?
[02:53] <tseng> mono is doing some interesting stack functions in the GC on ppc
[02:53] <tseng> and is failing when SSP is used
[02:53] <trulux> I have messed with /GS from Microsoft, which is similar but I forgot about some stuff
[02:53] <trulux> well
[02:53] <tseng> my guess right now is it doesnt know about the ssp offset
[02:53] <trulux> coud you check tha guard isnt being overwritten?
[02:53] <trulux> ie
[02:53] <tseng> check how
[02:53] <trulux> get __guard at different locations
[02:53] <tseng> it is segfaulting, which could also mean SSP is killing it
[02:53] <trulux> printf it's hex value
[02:54] <trulux> well
[02:54] <trulux> SSP uses abort signal by default
[02:54] <trulux> tseng, BTW, I got rejected for the sec. engineer position ;P
[02:54] <tseng> ah :/
[02:54] <tseng> wonder who got it
[02:55] <trulux> who knows, maybe too much MS stuff in the CV ;)
[02:57] <trulux> anyways...
[02:58] <trulux> back to work
[02:58] <trulux> I need to finish this showcase
[02:58] <trulux> asap
[02:58] <trulux> tseng, what's your job about right now?
[02:58] <trulux> consulting?
[02:58] <tseng> no
[02:58] <tseng> network monitoring/automation
[02:59] <trulux> I see
[02:59] <tseng> on a *huge* network
[02:59] <trulux> I might get into that soon, some opportunities in the NJ area
[02:59] <trulux> hah
[02:59] <trulux> how's the salary?
[02:59] <tseng> good.
[02:59] <trulux> 40k?
[02:59] <tseng> us?
[02:59] <trulux> yeah
[03:00] <trulux> plus insurance/whatever
[03:00] <tseng> could start at 60-65 in my area pretty easily in networking w/ some experience
[03:00] <trulux> I see, sounds nice
[03:00] <trulux> well, I'm going to give a try to some ideas I've been working on
[03:00] <trulux> related to data mining
[03:01] <trulux> outsorcing mostly
[03:01] <trulux> *outsourcing
[03:01] <trulux> fsck this kbd
[03:11] <sivang> jsgotangco: hehe
[04:41] <trulux> hmm
[04:41] <trulux> too bad, sparc64 images are broken, dma maybe?
[05:22] <trulux> slved
[05:22] <trulux> it's DMA
[05:22] <trulux> only 2.4 is supposed to be failsafe with DMA on most sparc64 machines
[05:22] <trulux> this should be fixed in the sparc64 installers
[05:23] <trulux> BenC, check that out when you have the time please
[05:23] <trulux> this is normally problematic with some seagate hd's distributed wit some appliances
[05:39] <fabbione> trulux: our images are fine. You want to check that your hd is not ELO
[05:39] <fabbione> EOL even
[05:39] <trulux> fabbione, fucked so to speak
[05:40] <trulux> fabbione, I'm sure that there's no major corruption on the disks
[05:40] <fabbione> i am sure the config is fine
[05:40] <fabbione> if  there are problems are mostlikely locel
[05:40] <fabbione> local
[05:40] <trulux> well, for all the sparc64 configurations out there?
[05:40] <trulux> MANY people experience these errors with Netra's
[05:41] <fabbione> i have a Netra right in my rack
[05:41] <trulux> what model
[05:41] <trulux> T1?
[05:41] <fabbione> T1
[05:41] <trulux> Netra's come in many shapes
[05:41] <fabbione> also
[05:41] <trulux> right, X1 here
[05:41] <fabbione> MANY people.. no bug reports...
[05:41] <trulux> slightly different environment
[05:42] <trulux> well, not everyone has the time to fill a bug proeprly and the like, most of us try to solve it at our own
[05:42] <fabbione> then it will never be fixed upstream assuming it's a bug
[05:42] <tseng> you have spent enough time today complaining to have filed a bug tbh
[05:42] <fabbione> so complaining here is only annoying
[05:42] <fabbione> and it will be lost in about 2 minutes when i leave the ws
[05:42] <trulux> fabbione, agreed
[05:43] <Hobbsee> hi tseng, fabbione 
[05:43] <tseng> hi Hobbsee 
[05:43] <fabbione> hi Hobbsee 
[05:44] <trulux> fabbione, btw, it's been a long week with the kernel stuff right?
[05:45] <trulux> with all the new revs coming out
[05:45] <fabbione> trulux: ?
[05:46] <trulux> fabbione, 2.6.17.3 hit the record so far with aprox. 24 hours since last patchset
[05:46] <trulux> and so on
[05:46] <fabbione> i don't follow kernel devel any longer..
[05:46] <trulux> lately it's like if all evil haxors unified their efforts to warm up the kernel guys
[05:46] <trulux> how's that?
[05:47] <trulux> you were doing a nice job with the stuff back in Hoary times
[05:47] <fabbione> because i don't maintain the kernel? (haven't done since breezy)
[05:47] <jsgotangco> because another guy is already doing the kernel
[05:47] <trulux> I see
[05:48] <trulux> tseng mentioned about someone interested on "ASLR" for Ubuntu
[05:48] <fabbione> for now my only concerns are clusters and sparc
[05:49] <trulux> hmm, btw, the sparc64 installation is server one only right?
[05:49] <fabbione> no
[05:49] <trulux> no workstation crap like desktop, window managers, etc
[05:49] <fabbione> you can install both desktop or server
[05:49] <fabbione> it's up to you
[05:49] <fabbione> we do support officially only server
[05:50] <fabbione> but in general desktop should work (modulo X autoconfig)
[05:50] <trulux> i see
[05:50] <fabbione> i am planning LiveCD and stuff for edgy
[05:50] <fabbione> there was simply no time in dapper for it
[05:50] <fabbione> probably i will support only PCI based GFX's for autconfig
[05:51] <trulux> fabbione, BTW, is there any QA-focused team at Canonical?
[05:51] <fabbione> sflaw <-
[05:51] <fabbione> sfllaw <- hime
[05:51] <jsgotangco> and a group of volunteers as well
[05:51] <fabbione> s/e$//
[05:51] <fabbione> i can't type
[05:51] <fabbione> yes and the #ubuntu-bugs guys of course
[05:52] <trulux> fabbione, how's supposed to be selectable, the installation type?
[05:53] <fabbione> trulux: it depends how you are installing
[05:53] <trulux> it seems to be installing desktop stuff
[05:53] <trulux> netboot
[05:53] <fabbione> oh that's funny.. yes
[05:53] <fabbione> hold on
[05:53] <trulux> if I can wipe it out later I see no trouble here
[05:54] <fabbione> server is: boot net base-installer/kernel/linux/extra-packages-2.6= pkgsel/install-pa
[05:54] <fabbione> ttern=~t^ubuntu-standard$ pkgsel/language-pack-patterns= pkgsel/install-language
[05:54] <fabbione> -support=false
[05:54] <fabbione> on feh
[05:54] <fabbione> all in one line
[05:54] <fabbione> unfortunatly the alias boot net server doesn't work
[05:54] <fabbione> the cd has it right
[05:57] <trulux> good luck on attaching ATAPID CDROM devices to some sparc64 boxes :P
[05:57] <trulux> do you think it's worth re-starting the installation?
[05:58] <trulux> or I can remove the crap later?
[05:59] <fabbione> trulux: they are debs.. 
[05:59] <fabbione> you can do whatever pleases you the most
[05:59] <trulux> I mean, easily, or it will conflict?
[06:00] <trulux> ala ubuntu-desktop must be removed
[06:00] <fabbione> why should it conflict?
[06:00] <trulux> meta-packages can be used?
[06:00] <fabbione> package management is the same as on any other arch
[06:00] <fabbione> except the filenames are sparc.deb instead of x86juck.deb
[06:00] <trulux> well man, then go and try ahead to remove gnome on an ubuntu desktop installation of Hoary/Dapper
[06:01] <trulux> I'll catch up later with that :)
[06:01] <fabbione> do what you want
[06:01] <fabbione> i am out of here
[07:29] <siretart> mdz: re: your recent email to u-d-a: when is the deadline for universe packages?
[07:30] <slomo> siretart: beta release... 29th september or something
[07:30] <siretart> ah, i see.
[08:37] <rleigh> siretart: The schroot build on powerpc seems to fail with a number of segfaults in the testsuite.  (http://librarian.launchpad.net/3303410/buildlog_ubuntu-edgy-powerpc.schroot_0.99.2-2ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz)  Are there any known issues with the powerpc port?
[08:39] <siretart> rleigh: ooh, interesting segfaults. unfortunately, I don't have access to ppc hardware to test :(
[08:40] <rleigh> siretart: Since I developed schroot on a powerpc system, I doubt it's an issue with the code.  I would suspect an Ubuntu powerpc-specific library or toolchain issue.
[08:41] <siretart> perhaps some toolchain issue. The buildlog doesn't indicate too clearly whats going wrong there..
[08:41] <rleigh> siretart: No.  It really needs looking at with gdb.  I'm afraid I don't have an Ubuntu install on my powerpc to test either.
[08:42] <sivang> hey glatzor !
[08:43] <glatzor> hi sivang!
[08:43] <glatzor> how are you?
[08:47] <sivang> glatzor: fine, and you? how was your trip back home to the club? 
[08:47] <mdz> siretart: dholbach outlined the dates for universe; ask him to add them to EdgyReleaseSchedule
[08:48] <siretart> ok. willdo
[08:51] <slomo> siretart: if you get a backtrace could you notify me?
[08:54] <bddebian> Heya folks
[08:54] <siretart> slomo: er, sorry?
[08:54] <siretart> hi bddebian 
[08:54] <glatzor> sivang: http://muenchen.nachtagenten.de/pictures.php4?content=display&event=2006.06.23_Cassius&pic=DSC08478.jpg
[08:54] <bddebian> Hi siretart
[08:54] <slomo> siretart: i meant for schroot on ppc :)
[08:55] <siretart> slomo: as said before, I cannot do a backtrace because of lack of ppc hardware
[08:55] <bddebian> Anyone know what scope a friend class has in C++ ?
[08:55] <siretart> bddebian: the same as the hosting class, I'd say
[08:55] <slomo> siretart: oh... i missed that part of your sentence, sorry :(
[08:56] <bddebian> siretart: The hosting class?
[08:58] <siretart> bddebian: maybe I don't get your question? did you look in the c++ faq lite?
[08:59] <bddebian> siretart: No, where's that? :-)
[08:59] <siretart> bddebian: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/
[09:00] <bddebian> Thx siretart
[09:01] <bddebian> strange, I don't see the derived class for this attal thing though
[09:01] <bddebian> Hmm
[09:49] <slomo> siretart: regarding schroot... it has exactly the same problem as mono on ppc currently
[09:49] <slomo> siretart: => libgcc_s bug on powerpc with ssp
[09:51] <siretart> rleigh: ^^--
[09:52] <rleigh> siretart: Thanks!  There's not much I can do to help in that case.
[09:52] <slomo> siretart: do you have a small c++ program that throws an exception somewhere? i think this might serve as a minimal testcase
[09:56] <rleigh> slomo: http://paste.debian.net/8783
[09:58] <slomo> rleigh: segfault... thanks :)
[10:08] <slomo> siretart, rleigh: bug #52465
[10:08] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 52465 in gcc-4.1 "[libgcc1]  segfault on ppc when unwinding stack (c++ exceptions, mono exceptions)" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/52465
[10:29] <sivang> slomo_: can you get PM's on your slomo nick ?
[10:29] <slomo_> no, my connection died :(
[10:30] <sivang> k
[10:31] <pygi> sivang, you around?
[10:31] <sivang> pygi: I am :)
[10:32] <pygi> we have problems :-/
[10:32] <pygi> the pyburn stuff isn't publicily available (it's located on ftp server protected with username and password)
[10:33] <sivang> pygi: isn't it open source?
[10:33] <bddebian> pygi: So crack it ;-P
[10:33] <pygi> it should be, but it exists only on one server on internet, and it's protected
[10:33] <pygi> bddebian, eh :)
[10:33] <pygi> sivang, I found another bindings for it written with pyrex
[10:34] <bddebian> Isn't there some way to get in touch with the authors?
[10:35] <sivang> pygi: ^^^ what about what bddebian said ?
[10:35] <pygi> cracking the server sivang ? ^_^
[10:35] <sivang> pygi: well, worst case we can still use my wrapper around cdrecord
[10:36] <sivang> pygi: what about getting in touch with the authors? :p
[10:36] <sharms>  I was testing a hostname bug, and was able to confirm it, and now I cant change my hostname back.  You guys know another way to use sudo? all I get is: sudo: unable to lookup bobvila via gethostbyname()
[10:36] <pygi> sivang, sec, trying to locate authors
[10:37] <sivang> pygi: do you have a link to it's home page/
[10:37] <sivang> ?
[10:37] <pygi> sivang, homepage doesnt exist
[10:37] <sivang> pygi: so how did you find about the bindings ?
[10:37] <pygi> sivang, ok, so I located author's email address
[10:38] <sivang> pygi: do you know what his bindings offer? maybe it's not suitable for us?
[10:39] <sivang> what are they wrapping? libnautilus-burn ?
[10:39] <pygi> libburn
[10:40] <pygi> sivang, which should be appropriate for us if it's written clearly
[10:41] <pygi> sivang: pyrex bindings, which I think are not appropriate but oh well...
[10:41] <pygi> svn co http://www.tortall.net/svn/mu/trunk/python-libburn
[10:41] <sivang> pygi: checking out
[10:46] <bddebian> OK, wtf do I do about attal?  The source tarball extracts to attal-src-0.10.1 ?
[10:49] <Amaranth> smack upstream around a bit
[10:50] <bddebian> :-)
[10:51] <bddebian> What's the "policy" on packaging from CVS?
[10:51] <slomo_> bddebian: where's the problem?
[10:51] <pygi> sivang, k, great
[10:51] <sivang> pygi: have youo mailed the author ?
[10:51] <pygi> sivang, yes, the one with "real" bindings
[10:51] <sivang> pygi: cool :)
[10:51] <bddebian> slomo_: Shouldn't it be attal-0.10.1?  Or does it not matter?
[10:52] <sivang> pygi: I wonder how proven those bindings are , or libburn itself
[10:52] <sivang> pygi: do you have an idea ?
[10:52] <slomo_> bddebian: it should... but it doesn't hurt in most cases if it isn't called that way
[10:52] <bddebian> slomo_: Oh, OK, thanks
[10:52] <pygi> sivang, libburn is good I guess, bindings have never been used !!! :)
[10:53] <sivang> pygi: who uses libburn ?
[10:53] <sivang> (apps, that is)
[10:57] <pygi> sivang, I am not really aware of such application as libburn is not really able to replace cdrecord right now
[10:57] <pygi> but it serves well for basic tasks
[10:58] <sivang> pygi: If it can't do multi sessions burns correctly we can't use it
[10:58] <pygi> sivang, it can
[10:59] <sivang> pygi: so it can do regular and multi session burn nicely? that's good then
[10:59] <sivang> pygi: We need to test it though before we port home-user-backup to use it
[11:00] <pygi> sivang, ofcourse
[11:00] <sivang> pygi: so we won't do it and then realize it's making it unstable
[11:00] <sivang> pygi: the problem is that we have little time to do so...We should have already started with implementation 
[11:00] <pygi> right, that's true :-/
[11:00] <pygi> we have like 20 more days, right? 
[11:01] <pygi> uh, DAR bindings :-/
[11:01] <sivang> something like that, until september 7th
[11:02] <bddebian> Heya zakame, mdke
[11:02] <pygi> sivang, ok, so I guess if we get the bindings I'll get on work testing both bindings and libburn
[11:02] <sivang> pygi: do you think it's feasiable to get the bindings  for dar in shape in time ?
[11:02] <sivang> it seems too big to complete in the edgy time frame...
[11:03] <pygi> sivang, right, especially if we have to test the libburn stuff :-/
[11:03] <pygi> but then again, for edgy+1 dar will be on second place, but I guess we'll have more time for edgy+1
[11:04] <sivang> pygi: well, if we get out of the way the burning bindings, the new UI and the bits we need from nautilus to detect free space on multi session cds, I think we could concentrate on that for edgy + 1
[11:05] <pygi> right, right
[11:05] <pygi> and we could use libburn even in pre-boot status I guess
[11:06] <pygi> sivang, btw. I think libburn is able to detect free space on multi session cd
[11:06] <sivang> pygi: if that's true, then you deserve a hug :-)
[11:07] <sivang> and it also has pythong bindings for that as well probably?
[11:07] <pygi> well, I am tellinh you that I contacted the author ^_^
[11:07] <sivang> pygi: okay, we should wait to see what he says
[11:07] <sivang> pygi: thanks
[11:07] <pygi> There is only one potential problem...but if my thinking is correct, that will be quite easy to "fix"
[11:07] <sivang> what is it?
[11:08] <pygi> well, it seems libburn isn't maintained anymore ^_^
[11:08] <sivang> interesting
[11:08] <pygi> tho, that shouldnt be a problem
[11:08] <sivang> "and the plot thickens"
[11:08] <sivang> pygi: how come?
[11:09] <pygi> Don't worry, I'll just take over the maintainment
[11:09] <pygi> ergh, wrong spelling :P
[11:10] <pygi> sivang, it's much more stable then cdrecord, and in the long term it could even have more features
[11:10] <sivang> pygi: do we have any proof that it's more stable the cdrecord?
[11:10] <sivang> or cdrdao ?
[11:11] <slomo_> pygi: and hopefully isn't that weird regarding licensing as cdrecord ;)
[11:11] <pygi> slomo_, GPL
[11:11] <pygi> sivang, yes, I used it some times ago (the same version)
[11:13] <sivang> pygi: very cool :)
[11:14] <pygi> I just wonder why it's development stopped...it had very bright future according to mailing lists
[11:14] <sivang> slomo_: the etherape edgy diff.gz has weird stuff...:-/
[11:14] <sivang> pygi: maybe the developer needed to work on dayjob stuff, etc
[11:14] <sivang> pygi: or lost interested
[11:15] <pygi> sivang, right right
[11:15] <sivang> pygi: but if we can resorect it it would be cool, we could split maintianership of python bindings and the lib itself
[11:15] <sivang> pygi: (you and me)
[11:16] <pygi> sivang, yes, I do agree
[11:17] <pygi> We must see status of python bindings, perhaps we will have to write it from scratch if this don't suit us
[11:17] <pygi> altought I think this is really out of scope for edgy if we have to do it
[11:17] <sivang> pygi: I hope they will. Not sure we have the time
[11:18] <pygi> what is our current status? do we have new UI integrated?
[11:19] <sivang> pygi: not yet, I will start work on it tomorrow
[11:19] <pygi> ok, that should take you few days if I am not mistaken?
[11:19] <sivang> pygi: you are free to join me , though, glatzor as well :)
[11:19] <sivang> pygi: yes
[11:20] <pygi> yes, I saw we got another contributor ^_^ Haven't heard from him tho ^_^
[11:20] <sivang> pygi: perhaps more. Some stuff changed in the workflow that could trigger changes in the underlying backend some bits.
[11:20] <sivang> pygi: on the Backupers team?
[11:20] <pygi> well, the "glatzor" :P
[11:20] <sivang> ah :)
[11:20] <sivang> He already worked so hard on the UI during the conference, you wouldn't believe it.
[11:20] <sivang> I owe him my life :p
[11:21] <pygi> :)
[11:22] <pygi> sivang, o yes,and we have to integrate python-libnotify this cycle :)
[11:22] <pygi> I think we don't have it in repos just yet tho?
[11:23] <mdz> zul: around?
[11:23] <slomo_> regarding libnotify there is some work to do anyway... we need new notification-daemon, new libnotify, new libnotify bindings. i wanted to talk with mvo about it tomorrow as he cared for it in dapper
[11:24] <zul> mdz: yep
[11:24] <mdz> zul: was just trying out your new grub, but there's a problem
[11:24] <zul> oh?
[11:24] <mdz> zul: if update-grub is run without grub-install, it breaks the boot
[11:24] <pygi> slomo_, hm, right
[11:24] <mdz> and update-grub is run automatically in a number of places (e.g., kernel upgrades)
[11:25] <zul> hmmm...ok ill have a look at it tonight
[11:25] <pygi> slomo_, thanks ^_^
[11:25] <stratus> slomo_: i've uploaded python bindings for debian, i told sivang. probably will do the latest lib soon, but nothing urgent is there from .40 to .42.
[11:26] <mdz> zul: then I ran grub-install to test that, and my system doesn't boot at all
[11:26] <mdz> I can get to the grub menu, but can't load a kernel
[11:26] <slomo_> stratus: i know :) nice to see you here too
[11:26] <zul> ok ill back out my patch then
[11:27] <mdz> I get "Error 1: Filename must be either an absolute pathname or blocklist" if I try to boot manually
[11:27] <stratus> slomo_: hi. i'm always here, i just don't talk too much.
[11:27] <mdz> if I just let grub continue, my system reboots in a loop
[11:27] <sivang> slomo_: this is the first time there are libnotify python binding IIRC, Gustavo told me it's sitting in NEW in sid,
[11:27] <mdz> zul: are you sure the compiler change took effect?  it seems unrelated to your patch, possibly a compiler regression
[11:27] <stratus> sivang: no, no. it isn't sitting in NEW anymore, it was processed in just one day. :)
[11:28] <zul> its a compiler regression
[11:28] <pygi> stratus, o, that's a news indeed :)
[11:28] <slomo_> sivang: and yes, before you had to use the dbus interface of notification-daemon :)
[11:28] <sivang> stratus: ah! then we should attemempt to import it and then apply the changes you told me to make it work
[11:28] <mdz> so backing out the patch might not fix it
[11:28] <stratus> pygi: sure, i even blogged about that :)
[11:28] <sivang> slomo_: yes, one can hardly call those bindings =)
[11:28] <stratus> sivang: sure, i've some other stuff to do now like vte python transition, but i can branch out and prepare some of that changes if you're busy with other stuff
[11:29] <zul> mdz: so you did grub-install and then update grub and rebooted?
[11:29] <sivang> stratus: now, I can do them, the question is if it's alredy in ubuntu or still waiting at our NEW for the overrides or so
[11:29] <mdz> zul: I think we were building grub with gcc-4.0 before
[11:29] <mdz> zul: did you try -4.0 before going all the way back to -3.4?
[11:30] <mdz> zul: I did update-grub, rebooted, worked around the fact that it couldn't parse menu.lst anymore, ran grub-install, rebooted and that's where I am now
[11:30] <stratus> sivang: which NEW? ubuntu's? i doubt it will be merged due to the new python infrastructure in Debian.
[11:30] <slomo_> sivang: you could file a sync bug for it... but we need to merge libnotify 0.4 first iirc
[11:30] <zul> mdz: no i didnt try gcc-4.0
[11:31] <mdz> zul: I'll give that a try
[11:32] <sivang> slomo_: I think I'll do that so I'll be notified when it's in and I can then merge it
[11:33] <mdz> hmm, doesn't build with 4.0
[11:33] <slomo_> sivang: in think we can just sync the python bindings... not sure about libnotify though, that's what i wanted to talk with mvo about :)
[11:34] <mgalvin> mdz: just so you know, i have been busy all week, i should have some time tonight to get the UWN out before the day is out
[11:34] <sivang> slomo_:  I see. Well, I stratus noted to me that we would probably need to drop some stuff form his current packaging in order to make it work, but maybe if all of the python transition is done then we could sync it proper.
[11:38] <mdz> zul: eek, with the gcc-4.0-compiled one I get an empty menu
[11:39] <mdz> mgalvin: cool, thanks
[11:39] <zul> mdz: yeah im having the same problem now
[11:39] <mdz> zul: this must have worked for you at some point though, surely?
[11:40] <zul> yes it did, but i wasnt using quiet in my grub-menu i was using quietboot
[11:41] <mdz> I have no idea why building it with gcc-4.0 doesn't fix the problem; perhaps it's a bug in your changes after all
[11:42] <zul> mdz: i was running it yesterday without sany problems
[11:44] <mdz> zul: any reports from anyone else of success or failure?
[11:44] <zul> i havent heard anything except for you mdz
[11:45] <zul> ill back out the patch and see if that works
[11:45] <mdz> zul: building with -4.1 causes grub to segfault for me; is that what happened to you as well?
[11:45] <zul> yes
[11:47] <pygi> sivang, you still here?
[11:47] <mdz> gcc-4.0 has been updated to the latest svn; it's possible there's a regression there
[11:47] <sivang> pygi: yes, but intend to go to sleep now
[11:47] <mdz> I'm going to try it with dapper's gcc-4.0
[11:48] <pygi> sivang, ok, sleep, I have some good news for you at wednesday (will be absent by then)
[11:48] <sivang> pygi: let me have them now :)
[11:48] <pygi> I talked with a few more people, and they seem to be higly interested in resurecting the libburn stuff
[11:49] <sivang> oh cool;
[11:50] <pygi> sivang, ok, don't let me hold you off anymore,sleep ^_^
[11:51] <sivang> pygi: laters dude, thank you for all your help :)
[11:52] <pygi> sivang, no, thanks for all your help :)
[11:53] <mdz> zul: I built dapper's grub with edgy's gcc-4.0 and that produces a working grub
[11:53] <mdz> zul: so the regression is either in your patch or the Debian merge
[11:54] <zul> debian merge of grub?
[11:55] <mdz> yes
[11:56] <zul> ok
[11:56] <mdz> I'll do some further testing
[11:57] <zul> so will i