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Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board [01:03] @schedule us/central [01:03] Schedule for US/Central: 11 Jul 15:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 07:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 14:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 08:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 15:00: Technical Board === lukketto [n=lukketto@host251-8.pool877.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lukketto [n=lukketto@host251-8.pool877.interbusiness.it] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === jsgotangco [n=jsg123@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === flint [n=flint@peter.rfa.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === GNAM [n=GNAM@host199-235.pool8252.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:54] @schedule rome [01:54] Schedule for Europe/Rome: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board === flint flint wonders if a meeting is gonna start... === ogra_ibook [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:00] Good Morning Ollie! [02:01] ogra, I sent Jonathan a VERY early draft of some docs I was working on. 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#ubuntu-meeting === GStubbs43 [n=GStubbs4@pool-72-73-93-252.ptldme.east.verizon.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["I] [08:41] @schedule [08:41] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 11 Jul 20:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 12:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 19:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 13:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 20:00: Technical Board [08:41] @schedule Colorado [08:41] @schedule ROME [08:41] Schedule for Europe/Rome: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board [08:41] @schedule Mountain [08:41] Schedule for Canada/Mountain: 11 Jul 14:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 13:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 07:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 14:00: Technical Board [08:41] @schedule Paris [08:41] Schedule for Europe/Paris: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board [08:44] @schedule Sao_Paulo [08:44] Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 11 Jul 17:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 09:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 16:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 10:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 17:00: Technical Board === flint [n=flint@peter.rfa.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lbm [n=lbm@82.192.173.92] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [08:59] @now utc [08:59] Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 18:59:46 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 0 minute === juantao [n=jdowd@office-gw.mind.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:01] meeting is in 57 minutes or now? [09:01] in 57 minutes [09:02] thank you. === juantao [n=jdowd@office-gw.mind.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [09:02] you're welcom [09:02] e [09:02] no, you're gone === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === alenitchev [n=dmitri@212.118.46.214] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === juantao_ [n=jondowd@office-gw.mind.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rikai [i=rikai@unaffiliated/rikai] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === juantao_ [n=jondowd@office-gw.mind.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] [09:15] @now utc [09:15] Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 19:15:53 - Next meeting: Community Council in 44 minutes === KOnsumer [n=KOnsumer@drsd-d9b85659.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === KLBK2005USER7143 [n=KLBK2005@85.104.58.49] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === KLBK2005USER7143 is now known as dilazad === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Sanne [n=Sanne@p548DBE80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-94-197.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i577B2ED9.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-94-197.houston.res.rr.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nealmcb [n=neal@wikipedia/nealmcb] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jul 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 19:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 13:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 20:00 UTC: Technical Board === heno [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:53] @now [09:53] Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 19:53:08 - Current meeting: Community Council in 6 minutes === cdeeeee [n=cdeeeee@63.170.166.7] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === juantao_ [n=jondowd@office-gw.mind.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:57] @schedule Israel [09:57] Schedule for Israel: Current meeting: Community Council | 12 Jul 15:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 22:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 16:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 23:00: Technical Board === Rinchen is now known as JoeyStanford [09:57] testing my connection [09:58] I'm sorry but i've some things i must do before the CC [09:58] I'm Maxence DUnnewind [09:58] and i'll come back in 20h10 UTC === KOnsumer [n=KOnsumer@drsd-d9b85659.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sharms2 [i=Steve@cpe-24-208-242-169.twmi.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:00] @now [10:00] Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 20:00:08 - Current meeting: Community Council in 0 minute [10:00] Kamion, ping === elmo [n=james@83-216-156-21.jamest747.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:00] hi elmo [10:01] hi [10:03] JoeyStanford how is everything? [10:03] yeah, I'm here [10:03] Hi Nix! Good thanks [10:03] I figured I'd uncloak for the meeting :-) [10:03] Kamion, will we see sabdfl or mako too? [10:04] sabdfl is on holiday [10:04] mako said he'd make it === mako [i=mako@bork.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:05] hi mako [10:05] greetings [10:06] ok, we've got quorum, shall we get started? [10:06] mdz, are you around? [10:07] i'm back [10:07] wb [10:08] seveas: "Two Ubuntu members have also become Freenode staff" - who are they? [10:08] elmo, rob and nalioth [10:08] actually, there are 3 now: hedgemage too [10:08] ok [10:08] Seveas: I am; am I needed? [10:09] mdz, you've put the first item on the agenda === mako is getting up to speed.. i'm coming straight out of another irc meeting [10:09] I put that on the agenda before the previous meeting, after talking with mako [10:09] I assumed it had already been discussed since comments were added to the wiki [10:09] at the previous meeting it was moved to this one === cbx33 [n=pete@ubuntu/member/cbx33] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:10] as you pointed out, this is a rather old proposal [10:10] but I think the issues it raises are still valid [10:10] mako was in agreement when we spoke about it === mako nods [10:11] i'm reading the things posted to the spec [10:11] I acknowledge that some members of the community are working well with the FreeNode staff [10:11] but I think that's equally possible elsewhere === j_baer__ [n=baerj@c-24-11-169-4.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:12] essentially all of the non-Ubuntu project channels I follow have moved to OFTC [10:12] that's been true for me as well [10:12] and why should we follow? [10:13] there are a series of reasons on and alluded to on the specification [10:13] Seveas: I regularly see the must register to send messages damage hurt users, f.e. [10:13] elmo, that is a measure against spam [10:13] please, when does the CC start ? [10:13] Sp4rKy: it's going on now [10:13] Sp4rKy, 13 minutes ago [10:14] Sp4rKy: started [10:14] I would say from a users point of view it's very hard to find a irc admin to get help from [10:14] who has this spec page handy? [10:14] Seveas: I know what it is, but it regularly bites new users trying to contact others [10:14] Seveas: that's fine, but it seems to be handled different and less inconveniently for users on other networks, including OFTC [10:14] "Freenode is technically and politically erratic" is a bunch of FUD instead of concrete arguments === andyp [n=andydpar@83.104.143.93] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:14] Does OFTC require registration to send messages? (Sorry for ignorance)? [10:14] jenda: no [10:14] mako, there's a big difference in size between oftc and freenode [10:14] thx [10:14] gnomefreak: it's on the agenda [10:14] freenode is much larger and thus a more attractive target [10:14] Seveas: OFTC recently took on Debian - they can handle us [10:15] mdz: ty [10:15] Seveas: nobody disagreeing with that, but that is something that we can take advantage of as well [10:15] gnomefreak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda [10:15] ty [10:15] I'm also bitten by this, everytime my client disconnects and reconnects, and I send PMs to folks not even noticing they don't receive it. [10:15] mako, Seveas gnomefreak k, so what should i do when i'm added to Member candidates for consideration [10:15] Sp4rKy, just wait. [10:15] Sp4rKy: wait until the proper point in the meeting [10:15] Sp4rKy: wait till Seveas calls you [10:15] k [10:15] thx [10:15] I'm happy with how Debian has turned out on OFTC [10:15] bye === dinda [n=dinda@cpe-72-181-94-197.houston.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:16] I'm happy with how Ubuntu turned out on Freenode [10:16] It's settled and working very nice [10:16] Debian's OFTC migration even provides us with a working example of how to do it [10:16] moving would disrupt that a lot === nixternal agrees with Seveas as there seems to be a lot of people settled in [10:17] maybe just me but i have seen alot of people from OTFC spamming in #ubuntu for the last few weeks is this something we have to look foward to if we move? [10:17] Seveas: that's your opinion, and it's great, but you're blithely ignoring problems like the must register stuff which are real problems and I see effect different people every week [10:17] I'll second that. Imagine the confusion of moving the thousands of people. [10:17] gnomefreak: "people from OFTC"? [10:17] jenda: it's not hard, as I said, Debian did it [10:17] gnomefreak: could you elaborate on that statement please? [10:17] jenda: Debian moved more people than we did [10:17] elmo, I'm not ignoring that, I'm just seeing that differently [10:17] Freenode doesn't require registration - #ubuntu does. [10:17] OK [10:17] jenda, no, freenode does - for pm's [10:18] Seveas: at the conference we had people unable to connect for msot of hte first day [10:18] we could also provide shipped IRC clients with config for OFTC for that matter [10:18] Seveas: eventually, i got ahold of lilo and eventually he was able to fix it === JoeyStanford notices that OFTC appears to be more community oriented and might fit better simply on that basis with Ubuntu than Freenode. Noting of course he has not experienced any problems with Freenode. [10:18] which i like the registration, as it stops people from ghosting nicknames as well === jenda mumbles about +6 [10:18] Seveas: that happens pretty much every time we have a conference === sryan [n=sryan@office-gw.mind.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:18] shipped IRC clients are a good idea [10:18] nixternal: there are registered nicks on oftc as well [10:18] mako, why do you think limiting connections is a bad idea? [10:18] yeah, it's been happening since Oxford in mid-2004 [10:18] mako: thank you for the clarification... ;) [10:18] Seveas: it's not that i think it's a bad idea [10:18] mdz, for paris that was handled because someone (me) actually poked freenode staff in time [10:19] Seveas: but when we have to spend half a day being blocked as a result, it's a major inconveience [10:19] mdz: yes there have beena few bot bombs (i guess is what the name for them is) is has OFTC before it shows the user name and in purple comming in the channel and just saying things like f ubuntu bleh bleh bleh === Amaranth [n=amaranth@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:19] Seveas: and for all your claims of close ties, it still takes at least half a day to sort out ... each time... [10:19] gnomefreak: your inference that it's "people from OFTC" seems weak at best [10:19] gnomefreak: I don't think you can take that as an indication that those people represent OFTC [10:19] elmo, for paris it took 5 minutes. [10:19] this wasn't on the calendar :/ [10:20] for other conferences: no one took the trouble to poke freenode staff [10:20] Seveas: it took 6 hours from the time i first messaged the only staff member online [10:20] IN TIME [10:20] Seveas: dude. your reality does not match our reality [10:20] Seveas: there were apparently some technical problem that kept the fix from taking hold [10:21] elmo, my reality is that freenode works really well for #ubuntu and related channels and that none of the active community want to move === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:21] Seveas: sigh. look, I'm talking about a very specific example. you're claiming that freenode was working for UDSP "on time". we were there. it wasn't. === Admiral_proFTW [i=posingas@adsl-69-211-62-66.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:22] Seveas: I think some of the people participating in this meeting qualify as active community ;-) [10:22] mdz, I mean #ubuntu community [10:22] I think #ubuntu-devel matters too [10:22] oftc is run by a democratically elected board, they have a great track record for technical reliability and responsiveness, they have recently started hosting debian which is both similar in size and overlap.. they also seem to be a less annoying/confusing to new users in regards to msgs [10:22] Seveas: I expect many of them neither know nor care which IRC network they use [10:22] I don't particularly want to turn this into a fight between #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel though [10:22] elmo, it may have failed later (heard that from lilo), but he was working on that. It worked immediately after I asked him though [10:23] brief opinion if i may do so....if there are issues with freenode, why not take them up the staff and see if they can fix the issues to supply ubuntu with what it needs..just like a new user with ubuntu, we want to know their issues, instead of them just leaving for something else [10:23] freenode is not oppressively bad.. but i think there's a fair use that oftc might be a better match [10:23] and if it doesn't get fixed/resolved, then look at moving elsewhere (oftc) if warranted? [10:23] mdz: except perhaps, when their private msgs don't work :) === nixternal is keeping an open mind, as it does't matter where i hang out, as long as it is Ubuntu!!! ;) [10:24] mako: is there some protection against someone else taking your nick ? do they support any sort of registration ? [10:24] sivang: of course [10:24] sivang: yes, they have services [10:24] sivang: it works exactly the same way [10:24] sivang: it would be indistinguishable [10:24] mdz, elmo, mako : I'm sold :-) [10:25] mako, freenode is increasingly good to us. In case of channel problems we have close ties to active staff. For OFTC that may eventually work too, but don't fix if it ain't broken [10:25] Are there any assurances that OFTC will be around for the long haul? [10:25] JoeyStanford, yes [10:25] Seveas: you also need to recognize that there is now a history of strange behavior in relation to canonical channels by the (undemocratically elected) freenode staff [10:25] mako, I do, but #canonical != #ubuntu [10:25] mako: that's not a CC issue though [10:26] debian had it easy, they have irc.debian.org [10:26] a history of erratic behavior by the people running the network is something working keeping in mind [10:27] mako, lilo will in the short term be much less visible on the network if you're concerned about that [10:27] Amaranth: (that's something we can and should introduce) [10:27] i really don't have a grudge against lilo.. he's been very helpful to me every time i've talked to him [10:27] i like that idea alot [10:27] Amaranth: and we have irc.ubuntu.com [10:27] Kamion: But by default people have been getting connected to "irc.freenode.net", no? === uniq [n=frode@ubuntu/member/frode] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:27] Amaranth: by default (at least in xchat) they use "Ubuntu Servers" [10:28] FWIW: We always state that "Debian is the rock that Ubuntu is built on." If the Debian community found OFTC good enough to move, OFTC operates in a similar manner as Ubuntu does, and many other groups have already migrated, it would seem to me that there is sufficient justifcation for us to move as well. [10:28] mdz: which is irc.freenode.net, no? [10:28] LaserJock: yes, but easily changed [10:28] of course, just wondered [10:28] it's separate from the FreeNode server profile [10:29] right [10:29] mdz: but warty, hoary, breezy, and dapper users are still connecting to irc.freenode.net [10:29] as they should be... [10:29] mdz: so you'd have to manually tell them to move [10:29] Amaranth: warty is EOL, and the others can be changed via -updates [10:30] hmm, i thought that stuff got copied into ~/.xchat2/ if you changed something [10:30] it's also easy to put "channel has moved" notices up [10:30] pardon, might I speak? [10:30] as elmo said, Debian have been through all this [10:30] juantao_, sure [10:30] the meeting is 30 minutes old and my lunch break is half over, any chance we can move along to other items? [10:30] Kamion: hehe, freenode will close the channel [10:30] juantao_, not before this is resolved [10:30] Amaranth: *shrug* lasts long enough [10:30] k === diaz [n=diaz@p5489DB77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:31] I don't think that concerns about the transition should be a consideration here; as stated, Debian made this transition without much trouble at all === mako nods [10:31] ok, forget that part for now [10:31] it seems entirely political, not technical [10:32] mdz, apart from the /msg-needs-registration and lilo-annoyance, are there any reasons to move? [10:32] (as far as implementation goes) [10:32] lack of help from ops for regular users [10:32] Kamion: well, the problem we have now is political, the reasons to move are both [10:32] Seveas: yes, another concrete reason already raised was the repeated problems we have at conferences [10:32] sharms2: How does moving to another network fix that? [10:32] mako: right, I realised that after speaking and tried to clarify in the parenthesis [10:32] Seveas: and the behaviour of staff in #canonical [10:32] mdz, and I already stated the solution to that too [10:33] elmo, #canonical != #ubuntu === slomo_ [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:33] that doesn't stop it mattering [10:33] Seveas: dude, seriously are you reading what people write? [10:33] Seveas: you haven't acknowledged that the "solution" you proposed is exactly what we did in Paris, and it *didn't work* [10:33] seveas: as mako already pointed out, it doesn't matter that #canonical != #ubuntu, it demonstrates a problem with how the staff behave, and how they behave affects _all_ channels including #ubuntu [10:33] Interesting, I didn't know a private, password protected channel was allowed on freenode. [10:33] it seriously disrupted the event (again) [10:33] mdz, due to technical problems as has been said - do you think OFTC will be problem free> [10:34] elmo, I've never seen staff misbehave in any ubuntu channel so far [10:34] Seveas: no, but in my experience it has fewer problems [10:34] mako's point about governance is also valid [10:34] mdz, that's just a matter of size... [10:34] Seveas: ... so are you saying we're making it up, or do our experiences just not count or what? [10:34] Seveas: i've been on both networks simultaneously for 3 years now [10:34] Why not move to EFnet? :) [10:35] mdz, that'll change - HedgeMage is working on getting people from projects on the board [10:35] Seveas: and my experience has been that things have been easier and more quickly fixed on oftc [10:35] my experience is similar to mako's [10:36] and additionally I'm tired of having to keep track of two networks ;-) [10:36] OFTC has also had less bot attacks and other annoying losers trying to keep staff over-busy [10:36] mdz: BTW, the move would bring that burden upon many of us. [10:36] Amaranth: it is; but we've had problems with staff not respecting privacy [10:36] i have never attempted to move a project from OFTC to freenode [10:36] but i've seen a very steady stream of project move [10:36] culminating with debian recently [10:36] mdz: I'm already in 3 networks, I really don't want a 4th. [10:36] it's basically only GNU projects and Ubuntu that are left here that i've involved with [10:37] Amaranth: i'm on 4, we learn to deal :) [10:37] mako: gentoo, php, django - to name a few that are here... [10:37] everyone is on freenode ;) [10:37] mako: is freenode a matter of GNU policy, or just status quo? [10:37] mdz: not sure [10:37] Seveas: yeah, because we have so much cross pollination with gentoo, compared to, err, Debian [10:38] yes, Debian alone is a pretty compelling reason [10:38] elmo, as a matter of fact #ubuntu and #debian don't have that much overlap [10:38] #python is on freenode too, although i think they have it on oftc too [10:38] Seveas: argh, dude, Ubuntu is not just #ubuntu [10:38] Seveas: you should look at the governance information for oftc [10:38] Seveas: it's pretty compelling [10:38] Seveas: Little overlap between user channels is hardly surprising [10:38] elmo, no, but moving would be the hardest for #ubuntu with 800+ users [10:38] Seveas: #ubuntu-devel is just as important a part of Ubuntu [10:38] Seveas: their entire staff/board is democratically election and dispute resolution goes through a democratic channel === JoeyStanford wonders about irc.ubuntu.com hosted by OFTC [10:38] mako: similar to the CC sort of [10:39] Seveas: no. it would not be. that is a straw man. as you've been told multiple times. Debian migrated larger channels and it was painless [10:39] JoeyStanford: that would probably be a forward, just like irc.debian,org [10:39] sivang: it's better than us! :) [10:39] elmo, at the time #debian moved. #ubuntu already was bigger [10:39] Seveas: more or less the the same [10:40] ~100 users [10:40] Seveas: in any case, nobody is suggesting doing this if OFTC couldn't handle it [10:40] Is that really that important? [10:40] ~100 users> that would be 12% then, basically statistical noise at that point [10:40] if you can migrate a 700-user channel, you can migrate an 800-user channel [10:40] mako: heh === nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:41] If you're going to do it it has to be all at once for basically everything but #ubuntu. [10:41] Otherwise it gets confusing. [10:41] please, let's not discuss migration strategies [10:41] maybe we can have some folks go to talk to them, tell them we're interested, lay out what we require and see if it can be provided before doing the move? [10:41] elmo: There is nothing else to discuss. [10:41] you can also look at the http://www.oftc.net/oftc/Constitution [10:41] it's great :) [10:41] Amaranth: of course there is. whether we should or not [10:41] i know when i was an op for ETG years ago, one of my channels was on 2 networks, and we utilized a bot to combine them until everyone moved over..the bot would link the 2 channels on the same network..this may also limit the issues with a transfer [10:42] elmo: It's the same argument back and forth though, perhaps it's time for a vote? [10:42] nixternal: #python had one of those too for talking to oftc users [10:42] let's not have a vote, but I would like to hear from anyone other than Seveas who is -1 on this [10:42] (I'm not discounting Seveas, it's just his vote is pretty damn obvious at this stage) [10:43] Well, I think it's a waste of time. [10:43] elmo, you've seen last week when there were many more others present [10:43] I dont think we should move [10:43] that's right, i'm not at all comfortable voting on this [10:43] DBO: why? [10:43] Other than that, whatever you decide. [10:43] everybody but the CC (who didn't say much then) was against [10:43] I deal with needy users every day in #ubuntu, I put in maybe 60 hours a week during the non-summer months, and they are confused enough [10:43] DBO: How are they getting to #ubuntu? [10:43] what about creating a poll for members/teams/users to vote also, as i think their opinions on something this great should be looked at [10:44] Seveas: that's not true, some people asked questions and few people offered a strong opniion either way [10:44] if irc.ubuntu.com forwards to oftc, how would that confuse anyone? [10:44] mako, that's not what I saw last week... [10:44] mjg59, most of them automatic, lots are using irssi, or whatever when their x server is broke [10:44] Seveas: sorry, but my recollection matches makos [10:44] confusing users is still a migration issue === jenda = -1 on moving [10:44] DBO: Right. So if the default config is to hit irc.ubuntu.com, then changing will change nothing for them [10:44] Seveas: but we can go over the logs later [10:44] jenda: again, why? [10:44] sorry, let me be clearer [10:44] Seveas: you can't ask me to come up with an opinion based on what *you* saw last week [10:44] let's not have a vote, but I would like to hear from anyone other than Seveas who is -1 on this _and why_ [10:45] Seveas: i've read what you've put on the wiki and acknowledge your points === JoeyStanford = +1 on the move [10:45] i also acknowledge Amaranth's point that the vast majority of people simply won't care [10:45] I would also like us to consider moving Ubuntu development channels even if the user channels don't move [10:45] The move strikes me as a short term solution to a long term issue. Anywhere we go there will be server issues, botter issues, DCC idiots [10:45] because, honestly, I don't think it matters much for most ordinary users whether the development channels are on the same network [10:45] from reading on oftc.net is looks very ubuntuish. democratic and nice. [10:46] Kamion: good point [10:46] If it ain't broken don't fix it approach: I don't think we should move only for political reasons, and the technical ones seem overlookable. [10:46] i am +1/-1 on it, 50/50, as i believe getting information from current users of freenode in the #ubuntu related channels, should be able to voice an opinion for something this large of an ordeal [10:46] Kamion, I agree with that [10:46] we know how to a transition, i suspect we could do it painlessly, without confusing, and withough the vast vast number of users even noticing [10:46] OTOH, I'm not that far from 'not caring' either: except I'm afraid we might lose some people, who won't want to move. === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D9CA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [10:46] truthfully, no matter where the servers are for me, i am still going to help Ubuntu...however my experience here has been very good, as I have had no problems with anybody or anyone [10:46] mako: we just need to make sure we have cloaks, which I kind'of got used to, but probably they have nice rules about that as well. [10:46] jenda: there is already a small group in #ubuntu on OFTC [10:47] Nixternal: Same here [10:47] jenda: i suspect a small group would stay onf reenode if we moved [10:47] mako: It's likely that the channel would be closed [10:47] apologies for my tardiness, but is there a reason for moving? [10:47] mjg59: ah [10:47] Most probably true. [10:47] mako: Though that doesn't seem to have happened to #debian, so [10:47] nalioth: there is a relatively long series of reasons, please read the log [10:47] I tend to agree with nixternal also. [10:48] sivang: there are cloaks and we could insure we had them on oftc [10:48] i can tell you this though, no matter where Ubuntu goes, I think the idiots who cause trouble on IRC servers, script kiddies mostly, i think will follow us because of how popular we are, and that is an easy way for them to express their jealousy [10:48] Just because something is ok now, doesn't mean you shouldnt plan for the future. [10:48] Seveas: here's what i'm kind of worried about [10:48] this debate sort of simmered in debian for years [10:48] nixternal, most bot attacks target freenode because of its size, not ubuntu because of its popularity [10:48] Another thing is... aren't cloaks a tidbit elitist? [10:48] nixternal: I reiterate my suggestion of moving development channels regardless; the numbers there are far less and the people involved are much easier to inform [10:49] jenda, they protect users from ddos === jenda does like his cloak, though :) [10:49] ok, I don't think we're getting very far with this, can I make a suggestion: [10:49] mako: cool, that's good. [10:49] and i understand that, but it will happen no matter which server is used..thats what i was tyring to get at [10:49] and it was clear to me that there was a lot of compatibilty between philosophy, decision-making, power, quick responses, overlap, etc. but nobody really wanted to rock the boat so thing really happened [10:49] ompaul: I meant exclusive member cloaks. [10:49] (1) we defer this to the next meeting, sabdfl is going to want to have a say in this, so we can't make any final decisions today anyway. AND [10:49] Kamion: moving just some channels complicates the treatment of irc.ubuntu.com [10:49] elmo: that's right [10:49] (2) both sides draw up pages on the wiki with their view of pros and cons [10:50] nealmcb: that's true, but developers can cope [10:50] elmo, +1 [10:50] (3) and someone add the kamion-alternative to the wiki as a suggested fall back [10:50] agreed [10:50] great point Kamion, but like i said, i am neither yay or nay on it, i just would like to see a larger community voice on the situation then what is currently being voiced...im with Ubuntu no matter where it's at ;) [10:50] elmo on that point +1 [10:50] elmo: (2) has already been done, though I suppose they could be expanded a bit [10:50] elmo: +1 [10:50] sounds good :) [10:51] mdz: the pro-move side could really be better documented, but yeah [10:51] elmo: +1 [10:51] 50 minutes :D [10:51] elmo: a LOT better documented [10:51] +1 [10:51] mako: most of your ideas are missing from the page; could you add them? [10:51] from the position of somebody who mostly has trouble caring but who probably leans marginally towards pro-moving, it's pretty weak [10:51] my biggest concern is the newer users of irc...if you can get them to autoconnect wonderful!!! === gnomefreak is mainly concered with how stable are thier servers === jenda still doesn't see the reasons, so it would be great if they were on the wiki. [10:51] I'll also try and add to the pro one, once mako is done, FWIW [10:51] mdz: yes! [10:52] thanks [10:52] great [10:52] can we sort out irc.ubuntu.com and default clients and stuff ASAP no matter what? [10:52] we should also document the migration stuff, etc. [10:52] Kamion: domain exists, I've filed a bug in LP on all clients [10:52] Seveas: thanks for your input though, and for being patient [10:52] that can and should be done independently of the outcome of this [10:52] elmo: cool, thanks [10:52] Seveas: lets try to move forward constructively [10:52] mako, (and others): likewise [10:52] ok. so. let's move on? [10:52] let's move on for now [10:53] great [10:53] new IRC ops [10:53] DBO, who we have already met briefly [10:53] =) [10:53] and imbrandon [10:53] DBO: want to do a quick introduction? [10:53] next is less discussion: DBO is a very active #ubuntu helper and imbrandon is already op in #kubuntu - I would like them to reinforce the team [10:53] +1 on both of them [10:53] Seveas: how are you doing in terms of active staff? [10:54] gnomefreak, you don't vote -- the CC does [10:54] oops [10:54] lol [10:54] Seveas: is there an op list online somewhere? [10:54] mako, those two would be useful additions, some of the ops have become less active [10:54] mako, on the wiki [10:54] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators [10:54] ah, that's what i was looking for [10:54] thanks === nixternal lets it be known that i am always online here, and is available if needed in the future [10:55] Seveas: well, we if you want to ask some folks on that list to retire, that might be good [10:55]