[12:51] <Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
[12:51] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board
[01:03] <imbrandon_> @schedule us/central
[01:03] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 11 Jul 15:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 07:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 14:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 08:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
[01:54] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[01:54] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board
[02:00] <flint> Good Morning Ollie!
[02:01] <flint> ogra, I sent Jonathan a VERY early draft of some docs I was working on.  If you end up with them do not judge me too harshly, they are a DRAFT! :^)
[02:02] <flint> @schedule dc
[02:02] <flint> @schedule est
[02:02] <Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 11 Jul 15:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 07:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 14:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 08:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
[06:10] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[06:10] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 11 Jul 15:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 07:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 14:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 08:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 15:00: Technical Board
[06:13] <sharms> @schedule detroit
[06:13] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 11 Jul 16:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 08:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 15:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 09:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 16:00: Technical Board
[07:47] <P3L|C4N0> @schedule atlanta
[08:41] <MitchM> @schedule
[08:41] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 11 Jul 20:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 12:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 19:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 13:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 20:00: Technical Board
[08:41] <MitchM> @schedule Colorado
[08:41] <GNAM> @schedule ROME
[08:41] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board
[08:41] <MitchM> @schedule Mountain
[08:41] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Mountain: 11 Jul 14:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 06:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 13:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 07:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 14:00: Technical Board
[08:41] <Sp4rKy> @schedule Paris
[08:41] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 11 Jul 22:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board
[08:44] <rodarvus> @schedule Sao_Paulo
[08:44] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 11 Jul 17:00: Community Council | 12 Jul 09:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 16:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 10:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 17:00: Technical Board
[08:59] <ompaul> @now utc
[08:59] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 18:59:46 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 0 minute
[09:01] <juantao> meeting is in 57 minutes or now?
[09:01] <erdalronahi> in 57 minutes
[09:02] <juantao> thank you.
[09:02] <erdalronahi> you're welcom
[09:02] <erdalronahi> e
[09:02] <erdalronahi> no, you're gone
[09:15] <sharms> @now utc
[09:15] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 19:15:53 - Next meeting: Community Council in 44 minutes
[09:53] <sharms> @now
[09:53] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 19:53:08 - Current meeting: Community Council in 6 minutes
[09:57] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[09:57] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: Current meeting: Community Council | 12 Jul 15:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 22:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 16:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 23:00: Technical Board
[09:57] <juantao_> testing my connection
[09:58] <Sp4rKy> I'm sorry but i've some things i must do before the CC
[09:58] <Sp4rKy> I'm Maxence DUnnewind
[09:58] <Sp4rKy> and i'll come back in 20h10 UTC
[10:00] <alenitchev> @now
[10:00] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 11 2006, 20:00:08 - Current meeting: Community Council in 0 minute
[10:00] <Seveas> Kamion, ping
[10:00] <Seveas> hi elmo 
[10:01] <elmo> hi
[10:03] <nixternal> JoeyStanford how is everything?
[10:03] <Kamion> yeah, I'm here
[10:03] <JoeyStanford> Hi Nix!  Good thanks
[10:03] <JoeyStanford> I figured I'd uncloak for the meeting :-)
[10:03] <Seveas> Kamion, will we see sabdfl or mako too? 
[10:04] <Kamion> sabdfl is on holiday
[10:04] <elmo> mako said he'd make it
[10:05] <Seveas> hi mako 
[10:05] <mako> greetings
[10:06] <elmo> ok, we've got quorum, shall we get started?
[10:06] <Seveas> mdz, are you around?
[10:07] <Sp4rKy> i'm back
[10:07] <Seveas> wb
[10:08] <elmo> seveas: "Two Ubuntu members have also become Freenode staff" - who are they?
[10:08] <Seveas> elmo, rob and nalioth
[10:08] <Seveas> actually, there are 3 now: hedgemage too
[10:08] <elmo> ok
[10:08] <mdz> Seveas: I am; am I needed?
[10:09] <Seveas> mdz, you've put the first item on the agenda
[10:09] <mdz> I put that on the agenda before the previous meeting, after talking with mako
[10:09] <mdz> I assumed it had already been discussed since comments were added to the wiki
[10:09] <Seveas> at the previous meeting it was moved to this one
[10:10] <mdz> as you pointed out, this is a rather old proposal
[10:10] <mdz> but I think the issues it raises are still valid
[10:10] <mdz> mako was in agreement when we spoke about it
[10:11] <mako> i'm reading the things posted to the spec
[10:11] <mdz> I acknowledge that some members of the community are working well with the FreeNode staff
[10:11] <mdz> but I think that's equally possible elsewhere
[10:12] <mdz> essentially all of the non-Ubuntu project channels I follow have moved to OFTC
[10:12] <mako> that's been true for me as well
[10:12] <Seveas> and why should we follow?
[10:13] <mako> there are a series of reasons on and alluded to on the specification
[10:13] <elmo> Seveas: I regularly see the must register to send messages damage hurt users, f.e.
[10:13] <Seveas> elmo, that is a measure against spam
[10:13] <Sp4rKy> please, when does the CC start  ?
[10:13] <mako> Sp4rKy: it's going on now
[10:13] <Seveas> Sp4rKy, 13 minutes ago
[10:14] <gnomefreak> Sp4rKy: started
[10:14] <sharms2> I would say from a users point of view it's very hard to find a irc admin to get help from
[10:14] <gnomefreak> who has this spec page handy?
[10:14] <elmo> Seveas: I know what it is, but it regularly bites new users trying to contact others
[10:14] <mako> Seveas: that's fine, but it seems to be handled different and less inconveniently for users on other networks, including OFTC
[10:14] <Seveas> "Freenode is technically and politically erratic" is a bunch of FUD instead of concrete arguments
[10:14] <jenda> Does OFTC require registration to send messages? (Sorry for ignorance)?
[10:14] <elmo> jenda: no
[10:14] <Seveas> mako, there's a big difference in size between oftc and freenode
[10:14] <jenda> thx
[10:14] <mdz> gnomefreak: it's on the agenda
[10:14] <Seveas> freenode is much larger and thus a more attractive target
[10:14] <elmo> Seveas: OFTC recently took on Debian - they can handle us
[10:15] <gnomefreak> mdz: ty
[10:15] <mako> Seveas: nobody disagreeing with that, but that is something that we can take advantage of as well
[10:15] <mdz> gnomefreak: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[10:15] <gnomefreak> ty
[10:15] <sivang> I'm also bitten by this, everytime my client disconnects and reconnects, and I send PMs to folks not even noticing they don't receive it.
[10:15] <Sp4rKy> mako, Seveas gnomefreak k, so what should i do when i'm added to Member candidates for consideration
[10:15] <Seveas> Sp4rKy, just wait.
[10:15] <Kamion> Sp4rKy: wait until the proper point in the meeting
[10:15] <gnomefreak> Sp4rKy: wait till Seveas calls you
[10:15] <Sp4rKy> k
[10:15] <Sp4rKy> thx
[10:15] <mdz> I'm happy with how Debian has turned out on  OFTC
[10:15] <elmo> bye
[10:16] <Seveas> I'm happy with how Ubuntu turned out on Freenode
[10:16] <Seveas> It's settled and working very nice
[10:16] <elmo> Debian's OFTC migration even provides us with a working example of how to do it
[10:16] <Seveas> moving would disrupt that a lot
[10:17] <gnomefreak> maybe just me but i have seen alot of people from OTFC spamming in #ubuntu for the last few weeks  is this something we have to look foward to if we move?
[10:17] <elmo> Seveas: that's your opinion, and it's great, but you're blithely ignoring problems like the must register stuff which are real problems and I see effect different people every week
[10:17] <jenda> I'll second that. Imagine the confusion of moving the thousands of people.
[10:17] <mdz> gnomefreak: "people from OFTC"?
[10:17] <elmo> jenda: it's not  hard, as I said, Debian did it
[10:17] <Kamion> gnomefreak: could you elaborate on that statement please?
[10:17] <mdz> jenda: Debian moved more people than we did
[10:17] <Seveas> elmo, I'm not ignoring that, I'm just seeing that differently
[10:17] <jenda> Freenode doesn't require registration - #ubuntu does.
[10:17] <jenda> OK
[10:17] <Seveas> jenda, no, freenode does - for pm's
[10:18] <mako> Seveas: at the conference we had people unable to connect for msot of hte first day
[10:18] <sivang> we could also provide shipped IRC clients with config for OFTC for that matter
[10:18] <mako> Seveas: eventually, i got ahold of lilo and eventually he was able to fix it
[10:18] <nixternal> which i like the registration, as it stops people from ghosting nicknames as well
[10:18] <mdz> Seveas: that happens pretty much every time we have a conference
[10:18] <erdalronahi> shipped IRC clients are a good idea
[10:18] <mako> nixternal: there are registered nicks on oftc as well
[10:18] <Seveas> mako, why do you think limiting connections is a bad idea?
[10:18] <Kamion> yeah, it's been happening since Oxford in mid-2004
[10:18] <nixternal> mako: thank you for the clarification... ;)
[10:18] <mako> Seveas: it's not that i think it's a bad idea
[10:18] <Seveas> mdz, for paris that was handled because someone (me) actually poked freenode staff in time
[10:19] <mako> Seveas: but when we have to spend half a day being blocked as a result, it's a major inconveience
[10:19] <gnomefreak> mdz: yes there have beena  few bot bombs (i guess is what the name for them is) is has OFTC before it shows the user name and in purple comming in the channel and just saying things like f ubuntu bleh bleh bleh
[10:19] <elmo> Seveas: and for all your claims of close ties, it still takes at least half a day to sort out ... each time...
[10:19] <Kamion> gnomefreak: your inference that it's "people from OFTC" seems weak at best
[10:19] <mdz> gnomefreak: I don't think you can take that as an indication that those people represent OFTC
[10:19] <Seveas> elmo, for paris it took 5 minutes.
[10:19] <Amaranth> this wasn't on the calendar :/
[10:20] <Seveas> for other conferences: no one took the trouble to poke freenode staff
[10:20] <mako> Seveas: it took 6 hours from the time i first messaged the only staff member online
[10:20] <Seveas> IN TIME
[10:20] <elmo> Seveas: dude.  your reality does not match our reality
[10:20] <mako> Seveas: there were apparently some technical problem that kept the fix from taking hold
[10:21] <Seveas> elmo, my reality is that freenode works really well for #ubuntu and related channels and that none of the active community want to move
[10:21] <elmo> Seveas: sigh.  look, I'm talking about a very specific example.   you're claiming that freenode was working for UDSP "on time".  we were there.  it wasn't.
[10:22] <mdz> Seveas: I think some of the people participating in this meeting qualify as active community ;-)
[10:22] <Seveas> mdz, I mean #ubuntu community
[10:22] <Kamion> I think #ubuntu-devel matters too
[10:22] <mako> oftc is run by a democratically elected board, they have a great track record for technical reliability and responsiveness, they have recently started hosting debian which is both similar in size and overlap.. they also seem to be a less annoying/confusing to new users in regards to msgs
[10:22] <mdz> Seveas: I expect many of them neither know nor care which IRC network they use
[10:22] <Kamion> I don't particularly want to turn this into a fight between #ubuntu and #ubuntu-devel though
[10:22] <Seveas> elmo, it may have failed later (heard that from lilo), but he was working on that. It worked immediately after I asked him though
[10:23] <nixternal> brief opinion if i may do so....if there are issues with freenode, why not take them up the staff and see if they can fix the issues to supply ubuntu with what it needs..just like a new user with ubuntu, we want to know their issues, instead of them just leaving for something else
[10:23] <mako> freenode is not oppressively bad.. but i think there's a fair use that oftc might be a better match
[10:23] <nixternal> and if it doesn't get fixed/resolved, then look at moving elsewhere (oftc) if warranted?
[10:23] <mako> mdz: except perhaps, when their private msgs don't work :)
[10:24] <sivang> mako: is there some protection against someone else taking your nick ? do they support any sort of registration ?
[10:24] <mako> sivang: of course
[10:24] <elmo> sivang: yes, they have services
[10:24] <mdz> sivang: it works exactly the same way
[10:24] <mako> sivang: it would be indistinguishable
[10:24] <sivang> mdz, elmo, mako : I'm sold :-)
[10:25] <Seveas> mako, freenode is increasingly good to us. In case of channel problems we have close ties to active staff. For OFTC that may eventually work too, but don't fix if it ain't broken
[10:25] <JoeyStanford> Are there any assurances that OFTC will be around for the long haul?
[10:25] <Seveas> JoeyStanford, yes
[10:25] <mako> Seveas: you also need to recognize that there is now a history of strange behavior in relation to canonical channels by the (undemocratically elected) freenode staff
[10:25] <Seveas> mako, I do, but #canonical != #ubuntu
[10:25] <mdz> mako: that's not a CC issue though
[10:26] <Amaranth> debian had it easy, they have irc.debian.org
[10:26] <mako> a history of erratic behavior by the people running the network is something working keeping in mind
[10:27] <Seveas> mako, lilo will in the short term be much less visible on the network if you're concerned about that 
[10:27] <Kamion> Amaranth: (that's something we can and should introduce)
[10:27] <mako> i really don't have a grudge against lilo.. he's been very helpful to me every time i've talked to him
[10:27] <gnomefreak> i like that idea alot
[10:27] <mdz> Amaranth: and we have irc.ubuntu.com
[10:27] <Amaranth> Kamion: But by default people have been getting connected to "irc.freenode.net", no?
[10:27] <mdz> Amaranth: by default (at least in xchat) they use "Ubuntu Servers"
[10:28] <JoeyStanford> FWIW: We always state that "Debian is the rock that Ubuntu is built on."  If the Debian community found OFTC good enough to move, OFTC operates in a similar manner as Ubuntu does, and many other groups have already migrated, it would seem to me that there is sufficient justifcation for us to move as well.
[10:28] <LaserJock> mdz: which is irc.freenode.net, no?
[10:28] <mdz> LaserJock: yes, but easily changed
[10:28] <LaserJock> of course, just wondered
[10:28] <mdz> it's separate from the FreeNode server profile
[10:29] <LaserJock> right
[10:29] <Amaranth> mdz: but warty, hoary, breezy, and dapper users are still connecting to irc.freenode.net
[10:29] <Seveas> as they should be...
[10:29] <Amaranth> mdz: so you'd have to manually tell them to move
[10:29] <mdz> Amaranth: warty is EOL, and the others can be changed via -updates
[10:30] <Amaranth> hmm, i thought that stuff got copied into ~/.xchat2/ if you changed something
[10:30] <Kamion> it's also easy to put "channel has moved" notices up
[10:30] <juantao_> pardon, might I speak?
[10:30] <Kamion> as elmo said, Debian have been through all this
[10:30] <Seveas> juantao_, sure
[10:30] <juantao_> the meeting is 30 minutes old and my lunch break is half over, any chance we can move along to other items?
[10:30] <Amaranth> Kamion: hehe, freenode will close the channel
[10:30] <Seveas> juantao_, not before this is resolved
[10:30] <Kamion> Amaranth: *shrug* lasts long enough
[10:30] <juantao_> k
[10:31] <mdz> I don't think that concerns about the transition should be a consideration here; as stated, Debian made this transition without much trouble at all
[10:31] <Amaranth> ok, forget that part for now
[10:31] <Kamion> it seems entirely political, not technical
[10:32] <Seveas> mdz, apart from the /msg-needs-registration and lilo-annoyance, are there any reasons to move?
[10:32] <Kamion> (as far as implementation goes)
[10:32] <sharms2> lack of help from ops for regular users
[10:32] <mako> Kamion: well, the problem we have now is political, the reasons to move are both
[10:32] <mdz> Seveas: yes, another concrete reason already raised was the repeated problems we have at conferences
[10:32] <Amaranth> sharms2: How does moving to another network fix that?
[10:32] <Kamion> mako: right, I realised that after speaking and tried to clarify in the parenthesis
[10:32] <elmo> Seveas: and the behaviour of staff in #canonical
[10:32] <Seveas> mdz, and I already stated the solution to that too
[10:33] <Seveas> elmo, #canonical != #ubuntu
[10:33] <Kamion> that doesn't stop it mattering
[10:33] <elmo> Seveas: dude, seriously are you reading what people write?
[10:33] <mdz> Seveas: you haven't acknowledged that the "solution" you proposed is exactly what we did in Paris, and it *didn't work*
[10:33] <elmo> seveas: as mako already pointed out, it doesn't matter that #canonical != #ubuntu, it demonstrates a problem with how the staff behave, and how they behave affects _all_ channels including #ubuntu
[10:33] <Amaranth> Interesting, I didn't know a private, password protected channel was allowed on freenode.
[10:33] <mdz> it seriously disrupted the event (again)
[10:33] <Seveas> mdz, due to technical problems as has been said - do you think OFTC will be problem free>
[10:34] <Seveas> elmo, I've never seen staff misbehave in any ubuntu channel so far
[10:34] <mdz> Seveas: no, but in my experience it has fewer problems
[10:34] <mdz> mako's point about governance is also valid
[10:34] <Seveas> mdz, that's just a matter of size...
[10:34] <elmo> Seveas: ... so are you saying we're making it up, or do our experiences just not count or what?
[10:34] <mako> Seveas: i've been on both networks simultaneously for 3 years now
[10:34] <sryan> Why not move to EFnet? :)
[10:35] <Seveas> mdz, that'll change - HedgeMage is working on getting people from projects on the board
[10:35] <mako> Seveas: and my experience has been that things have been easier and more quickly fixed on oftc
[10:35] <mdz> my experience is similar to mako's
[10:36] <mdz> and additionally I'm tired of having to keep track of two networks ;-)
[10:36] <Seveas> OFTC has also had less bot attacks and other annoying losers trying to keep staff over-busy
[10:36] <jenda> mdz: BTW, the move would bring that burden upon many of us.
[10:36] <Kamion> Amaranth: it is; but we've had problems with staff not respecting privacy
[10:36] <mako> i have never attempted to move a project from OFTC to freenode
[10:36] <mako> but i've seen a very steady stream of project move
[10:36] <mako> culminating with debian recently
[10:36] <Amaranth> mdz: I'm already in 3 networks, I really don't want a 4th.
[10:36] <mako> it's basically only GNU projects and Ubuntu that are left here that i've involved with
[10:37] <mako> Amaranth: i'm on 4, we learn to deal :)
[10:37] <Seveas> mako: gentoo, php, django - to name a few that are here...
[10:37] <Amaranth> everyone is on freenode ;)
[10:37] <mdz> mako: is freenode a matter of GNU policy, or just status quo?
[10:37] <mako> mdz: not sure
[10:37] <elmo> Seveas: yeah, because we have so much cross pollination with gentoo, compared to, err, Debian
[10:38] <mdz> yes, Debian alone is a pretty compelling reason
[10:38] <Seveas> elmo, as a matter of fact #ubuntu and #debian don't have that much overlap
[10:38] <Amaranth> #python is on freenode too, although i think they have it on oftc too
[10:38] <elmo> Seveas: argh, dude, Ubuntu is not just #ubuntu
[10:38] <mako> Seveas: you should look at the governance information for oftc
[10:38] <mako> Seveas: it's pretty compelling
[10:38] <mjg59> Seveas: Little overlap between user channels is hardly surprising
[10:38] <Seveas> elmo, no, but moving would be the hardest for #ubuntu with 800+ users
[10:38] <elmo> Seveas: #ubuntu-devel is just as important a part of Ubuntu
[10:38] <mako> Seveas: their entire staff/board is democratically election and dispute resolution goes through a democratic channel
[10:38] <sivang> mako: similar to the CC sort of
[10:39] <elmo> Seveas: no.  it would not be.  that is a straw man.  as you've been told multiple times.  Debian migrated larger channels and it was painless
[10:39] <jenda> JoeyStanford: that would probably be a forward, just like irc.debian,org
[10:39] <mako> sivang: it's better than us! :)
[10:39] <Seveas> elmo, at the time #debian moved. #ubuntu already was bigger
[10:39] <mako> Seveas: more or less the the same
[10:40] <Seveas> ~100 users
[10:40] <mako> Seveas: in any case, nobody is suggesting doing this if OFTC couldn't handle it
[10:40] <jenda> Is that really that important?
[10:40] <Kamion> ~100 users> that would be 12% then, basically statistical noise at that point
[10:40] <Kamion> if you can migrate a 700-user channel, you can migrate an 800-user channel
[10:40] <sivang> mako: heh
[10:41] <Amaranth> If you're going to do it it has to be all at once for basically everything but #ubuntu.
[10:41] <Amaranth> Otherwise it gets confusing.
[10:41] <elmo> please, let's not discuss migration strategies
[10:41] <sivang> maybe we can have some folks go to talk to them, tell them we're interested, lay out what we require and see if it can be provided before doing the move?
[10:41] <Amaranth> elmo: There is nothing else to discuss.
[10:41] <mako> you can also look at the http://www.oftc.net/oftc/Constitution
[10:41] <mako> it's great :)
[10:41] <elmo> Amaranth: of course there is.  whether we should or not
[10:41] <nixternal> i know when i was an op for ETG years ago, one of my channels was on 2 networks, and we utilized a bot to combine them until everyone moved over..the bot would link the 2 channels on the same network..this may also limit the issues with a transfer
[10:42] <Amaranth> elmo: It's the same argument back and forth though, perhaps it's time for a vote?
[10:42] <Amaranth> nixternal: #python had one of those too for talking to oftc users
[10:42] <elmo> let's not have a vote, but I would like to hear from anyone other than Seveas who is -1 on this
[10:42] <elmo> (I'm not discounting Seveas, it's just his vote is pretty damn obvious at this stage)
[10:43] <Amaranth> Well, I think it's a waste of time.
[10:43] <Seveas> elmo, you've seen last week when there were many more others present
[10:43] <DBO> I dont think we should move
[10:43] <mako> that's right, i'm not at all comfortable voting on this
[10:43] <elmo> DBO: why?
[10:43] <Amaranth> Other than that, whatever you decide.
[10:43] <Seveas> everybody but the CC (who didn't say much then) was against
[10:43] <DBO> I deal with needy users every day in #ubuntu, I put in maybe 60 hours a week during the non-summer months, and they are confused enough
[10:43] <mjg59> DBO: How are they getting to #ubuntu?
[10:43] <nixternal> what about creating a poll for members/teams/users to vote also, as i think their opinions on something this great should be looked at
[10:44] <mako> Seveas: that's not true, some people asked questions and few people offered a strong opniion either way
[10:44] <sharms2> if irc.ubuntu.com forwards to oftc, how would that confuse anyone?
[10:44] <Seveas> mako, that's not what I saw last week...
[10:44] <DBO> mjg59, most of them automatic, lots are using irssi, or whatever when their x server is broke
[10:44] <elmo> Seveas: sorry, but my recollection matches makos
[10:44] <Amaranth> confusing users is still a migration issue
[10:44] <mjg59> DBO: Right. So if the default config is to hit irc.ubuntu.com, then changing will change nothing for them
[10:44] <elmo> Seveas: but we can go over the logs later
[10:44] <elmo> jenda: again, why?
[10:44] <elmo> sorry, let me be clearer
[10:44] <mako> Seveas: you can't ask me to come up with an opinion based on what *you* saw last week
[10:44] <elmo> let's not have a vote, but I would like to hear from anyone other than Seveas who is -1 on this _and why_
[10:45] <mako> Seveas: i've read what you've put on the wiki and acknowledge your points
[10:45] <mako> i also acknowledge Amaranth's point that the vast majority of people simply won't care
[10:45] <Kamion> I would also like us to consider moving Ubuntu development channels even if the user channels don't move
[10:45] <DBO> The move strikes me as a short term solution to a long term issue.  Anywhere we go there will be server issues, botter issues, DCC idiots
[10:45] <Kamion> because, honestly, I don't think it matters much for most ordinary users whether the development channels are on the same network
[10:45] <uniq> from reading on oftc.net is looks very ubuntuish. democratic and nice.
[10:46] <elmo> Kamion: good point
[10:46] <jenda> If it ain't broken don't fix it approach: I don't think we should move only for political reasons, and the technical ones seem overlookable.
[10:46] <nixternal> i am +1/-1 on it, 50/50, as i believe getting information from current users of freenode in the #ubuntu related channels, should be able to voice an opinion for something this large of an ordeal
[10:46] <DBO> Kamion, I agree with that
[10:46] <mako> we know how to a transition, i suspect we could do it painlessly, without confusing, and withough the vast vast number of users even noticing
[10:46] <jenda> OTOH, I'm not that far from 'not caring' either: except I'm afraid we might lose some people, who won't want to move.
[10:46] <nixternal> truthfully, no matter where the servers are for me, i am still going to help Ubuntu...however my experience here has been very good, as I have had no problems with anybody or anyone
[10:46] <sivang> mako: we just need to make sure we have cloaks, which I kind'of got used to, but probably they have nice rules about that as well.
[10:46] <mako> jenda: there is already a small group in #ubuntu on OFTC
[10:47] <JoeyStanford> Nixternal: Same here
[10:47] <mako> jenda: i suspect a small group would stay onf reenode if we moved
[10:47] <mjg59> mako: It's likely that the channel would be closed
[10:47] <nalioth> apologies for my tardiness, but is there a reason for moving?
[10:47] <mako> mjg59: ah
[10:47] <jenda> Most probably true.
[10:47] <mjg59> mako: Though that doesn't seem to have happened to #debian, so
[10:47] <mako> nalioth: there is a relatively long series of reasons, please read the log
[10:47] <nealmcb> I tend to agree with nixternal also.
[10:48] <mako> sivang: there are cloaks and we could insure we had them on oftc
[10:48] <nixternal> i can tell you this though, no matter where Ubuntu goes, I think the idiots who cause trouble on IRC servers, script kiddies mostly, i think will follow us because of how popular we are, and that is an easy way for them to express their jealousy
[10:48] <sharms2> Just because something is ok now, doesn't mean you shouldnt plan for the future.
[10:48] <mako> Seveas: here's what i'm kind of worried about
[10:48] <mako> this debate sort of simmered in debian for years
[10:48] <Seveas> nixternal, most bot attacks target freenode because of its size, not ubuntu because of its popularity
[10:48] <jenda> Another thing is... aren't cloaks a tidbit elitist?
[10:48] <Kamion> nixternal: I reiterate my suggestion of moving development channels regardless; the numbers there are far less and the people involved are much easier to inform
[10:49] <ompaul> jenda, they protect users from ddos 
[10:49] <elmo> ok, I don't think we're getting very far with this, can I make a suggestion:
[10:49] <sivang> mako: cool, that's good.
[10:49] <nixternal> and i understand that, but it will happen no matter which server is used..thats what i was tyring to get at
[10:49] <mako> and it was clear to me that there was a lot of compatibilty between philosophy, decision-making, power, quick responses, overlap, etc. but nobody really wanted to rock the boat so thing really happened
[10:49] <jenda> ompaul: I meant exclusive member cloaks.
[10:49] <elmo>  (1) we defer this to the next meeting, sabdfl is going to want to have a say in this, so we can't make any final decisions today anyway.  AND
[10:49] <nealmcb> Kamion: moving just some channels complicates the treatment of irc.ubuntu.com
[10:49] <mako> elmo: that's right
[10:49] <elmo> (2) both sides draw up pages on the wiki with their view of pros and cons
[10:50] <Kamion> nealmcb: that's true, but developers can cope
[10:50] <ogra> elmo, +1
[10:50] <elmo> (3) and someone add the kamion-alternative to the wiki as a suggested fall back
[10:50] <jenda> agreed
[10:50] <nixternal> great point Kamion, but like i said, i am neither yay or nay on it, i just would like to see a larger community voice on the situation then what is currently being voiced...im with Ubuntu no matter where it's at ;)
[10:50] <ompaul> elmo on that point  +1
[10:50] <mdz> elmo: (2) has already been done, though I suppose they could be expanded a bit
[10:50] <gnomefreak> elmo: +1
[10:50] <mako> sounds good :)
[10:51] <elmo> mdz: the pro-move side could really be better documented, but yeah
[10:51] <nixternal> elmo: +1
[10:51] <jenda> 50 minutes :D
[10:51] <Kamion> elmo: a LOT better documented
[10:51] <jenda> +1
[10:51] <mdz> mako: most of your ideas are missing from the page; could you add them?
[10:51] <Kamion> from the position of somebody who mostly has trouble caring but who probably leans marginally towards pro-moving, it's pretty weak
[10:51] <nixternal> my biggest concern is the newer users of irc...if you can get them to autoconnect wonderful!!!
[10:51] <elmo> I'll also try and add to the pro one, once mako is done, FWIW
[10:51] <mako> mdz: yes!
[10:52] <mdz> thanks
[10:52] <mako> great
[10:52] <Kamion> can we sort out irc.ubuntu.com and default clients and stuff ASAP no matter what?
[10:52] <elmo> we should also document the migration stuff, etc.
[10:52] <elmo> Kamion: domain exists, I've filed a bug in LP on all clients
[10:52] <mako> Seveas: thanks for your input though, and for being patient
[10:52] <Kamion> that can and should be done independently of the outcome of this
[10:52] <Kamion> elmo: cool, thanks
[10:52] <mako> Seveas: lets try to move forward constructively
[10:52] <Seveas> mako, (and others): likewise
[10:52] <elmo> ok.  so.  let's move on?
[10:52] <Seveas> let's move on for now
[10:53] <mako> great
[10:53] <mako> new IRC ops
[10:53] <mako> DBO, who we have already met briefly
[10:53] <DBO> =)
[10:53] <mako> and imbrandon
[10:53] <mako> DBO: want to do a quick introduction?
[10:53] <Seveas> next is less discussion: DBO is a very active #ubuntu helper and imbrandon is already op in #kubuntu - I would like them to reinforce the team
[10:53] <gnomefreak> +1 on both of them
[10:53] <mako> Seveas: how are you doing in terms of active staff?
[10:54] <Seveas> gnomefreak, you don't vote -- the CC does
[10:54] <gnomefreak> oops
[10:54] <nixternal> lol
[10:54] <mako> Seveas: is there an op list online somewhere?
[10:54] <Seveas> mako, those two would be useful additions, some of the ops have become less active
[10:54] <Seveas> mako, on the wiki
[10:54] <Seveas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCOperators
[10:54] <mako> ah, that's what i was looking for
[10:54] <mako> thanks
[10:55] <mako> Seveas: well, we if you want to ask some folks on that list to retire, that might be good
[10:55] <mako> but in any case
[10:56] <Amaranth> oop, i don't have a wiki page anymore
[10:56] <mako> does anyone have anything testimonials, positive or negative (can be private if absolutely necessary) about either DBO or imbrandon?
[10:56] <ompaul> mako, I'll vouch for DBO as very good, and very useful
[10:56] <DBO> I did ask Madpilot to come today, but he was otherwise detained
[10:57] <nixternal> imbrandon is a good op, as we work together quite a bit
[10:57] <uniq> mako: imbrandon is very helpfull and a good operator in #kubuntu.
[10:57] <Seveas> err.. s#+1#\o/#
[10:57] <nixternal> +1 uniq
[10:57] <Seveas> DBO is very helpful in #ubuntu and entertaining in -offtopic - both are useful things
[10:58] <nalioth> DBO and imbrandon will make fine ops
[10:58] <gnomefreak> agreed
[10:58] <Seveas> but most important: both DBO and imbrandon have a good dose of common sense
[10:58] <FunnyLookinHat> I found DBO to be very helpful as well.  He is extremely patient and works well to help users understand rather than just telling them what to do.
[10:59] <Amaranth> While we're on this topic, are any of the developers in that list ever actually in #ubuntu anymore?
[11:00] <gnomefreak> Amaranth: i see a few ive never seen dont know who they are either
[11:00] <mako> Amaranth: i think its fair to say that most of the people from the first round are not active there
[11:02] <mako> and most of the core-devs are from that group
[11:02] <mako> in any case
[11:02] <mako> i'm happy with both imbrandon and DBO on those recommendations on a quick review of their recent activity
[11:02] <mako> Kamion, elmo: ?
[11:03] <LaserJock> crimsun is often i n #ubuntu isn't he?
[11:03] <Seveas> yes
[11:03] <ompaul> LaserJock, yes 
[11:03] <nalioth> crimsun is everywhere
[11:03] <nixternal> crimsun is everywhere
[11:03] <nixternal> lol
[11:03] <mako> heh
[11:03] <sivang> and he also fires Molecules at other ones :)
[11:03] <gnomefreak> LaserJock: yes
[11:03] <Kamion> doesn't seem to be any opposition to those ops, so I'm happy to take the recommendations of those here
[11:04] <elmo> wow, #ubuntu logs do bag things to galeon
[11:04] <gnomefreak> thom i never see and fooishbar
[11:04] <Kamion> DBO: what's your launchpad id?
[11:04] <Seveas> gnomefreak, they're not in chanservs access list - I'll update the wikipage
[11:04] <gnomefreak> ok
[11:04] <Kamion> Daniel's more or less inactive Ubuntu-wise; Thom has been around more lately but I doubt he cares about #ubuntu ops any more
[11:05] <jenda> elmo: tail does bad things to #ubuntu logs ;)
[11:05] <DBO> Kamion, my current id is jasonsmith5, but due to a technical glitch (foobar gpg) been having issues with the CoC signing.  I will however sign as soon as I can fix that (or grab antoher person for help)
[11:05] <gnomefreak> also havent seen carlk in ages
[11:05] <ompaul> Kamion, I'll walk him though it
[11:05] <DBO> Kamion, scratch that, I mean Jassmith
[11:05] <Seveas> gnomefreak, I've seen him recently
[11:05] <gnomefreak> k
[11:05] <elmo> anyway, both fine by me
[11:06] <Kamion> DBO: ok, thanks
[11:06] <Kamion> ok, we have a lot of locoteams to cover
[11:06] <Seveas> -ChanServ- [DBO]  has been added to the access list for #ubuntu with level [10] 
[11:06] <Seveas> -ChanServ- [imbrandon]  has been added to the access list for #ubuntu with level [10] 
[11:07] <Kamion> are any of the locoteam representatives here? I realise it's been a long haul so far
[11:07] <Seveas> -ChanServ- [DBO]  has been added to the access list for #ubuntu-offtopic with level [10] 
[11:07] <mako> yikes!
[11:07] <mako> JoeyStanford: please go ahead and introduce your team and its activities
[11:07] <nealmcb> Three of us are here from Colorado
[11:07] <JoeyStanford> Greetings.
[11:07] <JoeyStanford>  Thank you for allowing us a few minutes of your time today.  My name is Joey Stanford and I would like to 
[11:07] <JoeyStanford> introduce the Colorado Local Community Team. Our wiki entry is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam  (note the 
[11:07] <JoeyStanford> photos!!). 
[11:07] <erdalronahi> erdalronahi is from ubuntu-ku and also here
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> The Colorado Local Community Team (aka CoLoCo) advocates the use of Open Source software and Ubuntu Linux in the State 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> of Colorado. This is done through CD Distribution, Team expansion, user-base support, and outreach programs.
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> The Colorado 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> Local Community Team is not meant to replace our local LUGS but rather enhance their overall experience by having a 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> dedicated place to discuss, contribute, and gain support from local Ubuntu users. 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> I am the current Team Leader and Neal McBurnett (who is here today) is the Deputy Team Leader.
[11:08] <mako> if they have already, having something typed and up and prepared for pasting will make you friends :)
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> What We Do: 1) Educate the public about Ubuntu, 2) Supply Ubuntu (CDs & CD images), 3) Support Ubuntu Locally, 4) 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> Conduct outreach programs via local schools
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> Our membership, at last count, numbers 35 people although I must admit we 
[11:08] <JoeyStanford> have not yet been able to get all of them to register on launchpad or our mailing list.  
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> As part of our support program we have been actively participating in local LUG lists.
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> We have IT professionals, 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> hobbyists, teachers, and students in our ranks. 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> In 2006 we are planning (and executing) to leverage the educational 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> professionals to provide a level of outreach into our schools.  
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> One of our members, Paul Casey, has done a fantastic job at a local university.  He has converted the entire computer 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> lab and to a large extent, the entire computer program, over to Ubuntu. Ubuntu is on every lab machine. Almost all 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> courses are taught using Ubuntu including graphics design, publishing, programming, and basic computer skills.
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> We've had some interesting events since we started. Our Dapper Release party was a great success and we signed up a few 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> new members.  My laptop nearly melted due to the continued burning of ISOs. :-)
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> Through the mailing list, irc channel, and our physical parties we've been able to provide both generalized and specific 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> support of Ubuntu to our community. This has resulted in a suggestion for Matthew East:  
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51382
[11:09] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 51382 in ubuntu-website "Suggestion: LoCo Teams to Free Support Page" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  
[11:09] <elmo> holy cow, longest intro EVAR
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> We have some additional speaking engagements lined up as well as a big, more organized, team parties later this year. We 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> were targeting the Sept/Oct time frame and may roll this into the Eft Release Party and/or the Free Software Day 
[11:09] <JoeyStanford> celebration.
[11:10] <mako> yeah, a bit much perhaps :)
[11:10] <JoeyStanford> All in all, we've been having a great time and wanted to share our excitement with the Council.  This concludes our 
[11:10] <JoeyStanford> formal presentation.  We would like to end with a formal solicitation to the council for recognizing our team as an 
[11:10] <JoeyStanford> official local team. We would very much welcome additional ideas on how to become even more successful as well as 
[11:10] <JoeyStanford> meeting any missed criteria for being an officially sanctioned Local Community Team. Thank you!!!!
[11:10] <nealmcb> I'm Neal McBurnett: https://launchpad.net/people/nealmcb and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NealMcBurnett
[11:10] <nealmcb> He said it all
[11:11] <mako> i think you guys should be able to definitely modify the colorado flag to include an ubuntu logo
[11:11] <nealmcb> :-)
[11:11] <mako> or at least two thirds of one
[11:12] <mako> great
[11:12] <mako> well, you said a lot.. i have no questions.. thanks for your work so far and for showing up
[11:12] <mako> it's pretty inspirational
[11:13] <mako> JoeyStanford: welcome!
[11:13] <mako> also nealmcb 
[11:13] <mako> sharms2?
[11:13] <sharms2> I mistyped, I am later in agenda
[11:13] <mako> ah, ok
[11:13] <nealmcb> You all provide a great platform to rally around, with great community feel.
[11:14] <mako> nixternal, chitown!
[11:14] <elmo> yeah, what mako said
[11:14] <nixternal> After a performance like that by JoeyStanford, there isn't much for me to add. Ubuntu Chicago is doing the same, just in the Chicago land are, and I have had the assistance of JoeyStanford with getting my team up and running.
[11:14] <nixternal> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-chicago
[11:14] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChicagoTeam
[11:14] <nixternal> my members aren't always on irc, and are currently busy
[11:14] <mako> also a nice website
[11:15] <nixternal> but, we have come to our first agenda which is our first meeting "The Taste of Ubuntu" in 2 weeks
[11:15] <nixternal> thanks mako
[11:15] <nixternal> we have 30+ already showing up for our first meeting, and we are planning "Chicago Days" where we will be spending a day downtown advocating and spreading ubuntu
[11:16] <mako> nixternal: tell Vince Vierra he has a great name :)
[11:16] <nixternal> we are currently trying to get a mailing list up and running and haven't had much success with that as the responses are null
[11:16] <nixternal> will do mako
[11:16] <nixternal> i got in touch with Ubuntu hosting,a nd we will be getting a small site via them next week
[11:16] <nixternal> i am getting/trying to get all of the members to join launchpad and sign the CoC
[11:17] <mako> nixternal: awesome :)
[11:17] <nixternal> i have a great group of guys and gals, and their determination and dedication is endless
[11:17] <DBO> mako, purging gpg got it to start making keys again, CoC is signed =)
[11:17] <mako> DBO: great
[11:17] <mako> awesome
[11:17] <mako> nixternal: thanks for your hard work on that 
[11:17] <nixternal> we also have a couple of big timers who are providing us hardware for demos coming up
[11:18] <JoeyStanford> Fantastic news Nix
[11:18] <nixternal> i appreciate it mako, as we really enjoy doing it
[11:18] <mako> you should feel free to keep places like sounder up to date on your actions
[11:18] <nixternal> we even have a LUG that is interested in our work, and they happen to be on OFTC ;)
[11:18] <nixternal> will do mako
[11:18] <nixternal> that's about it for chicago
[11:19] <mako> especially successful stuff you think might other groups might like to learn from or emulate
[11:19] <nixternal> we are doing Ubuntu Chicago style as they all say ;)
[11:19] <JoeyStanford> nix will post the dates for the Chigago Days festival? I'll try to fly in.
[11:19] <nixternal> i can do that JoeyStanford when they become available
[11:19] <JoeyStanford> thx
[11:19] <nixternal> i will let everyone know
[11:19] <nixternal> thanks to you all for the support, as we wouldn't be able to do this w/o the community
[11:20] <nixternal> thanks to the CC for your time and consideration as well
[11:20] <mako> the Ubuntu Chicago Manueal of Style
[11:20] <LaserJock> lol
[11:20] <nixternal> hehe
[11:21] <mako> thanks guys!
[11:21] <mako> alright
[11:21] <nixternal> thank you mako
[11:22] <mako> erdalronahi: you're up!
[11:22] <erdalronahi> Hi,
[11:22] <erdalronahi> We are a very small team trying to promote Linux in Kurdish. Ubuntu is the first Kurdish Linux, due to Rosetta. Rosetta made translation easy for us. But since we started from zero, there is still a long way to go.
[11:22] <erdalronahi> We have produced a Kurdish Ubuntu-Live-CD, with all the langpacks on the CD.
[11:22] <erdalronahi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu-ku
[11:22] <erdalronahi> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-ku
[11:22] <erdalronahi> We'd like to become an official team.
[11:22] <mako> wow!
[11:23] <erdalronahi> that's it, any questions?
[11:23] <erdalronahi> :)
[11:23] <nixternal> hehe
[11:23] <mako> erdalronahi: maybe you can tell us a little about kurdish :)
[11:23] <erdalronahi> We have not such an elaborate speech
[11:23] <erdalronahi> Of course,
[11:23] <jenda> Yes ;) Could there be an english wiki about the team?
[11:23] <erdalronahi> yes,
[11:23] <mako> was there an existing gnome translation before?
[11:23] <erdalronahi> no
[11:23] <erdalronahi> we did it
[11:24] <jenda> BTW - which part of Kurdistan are you based in?
[11:24] <erdalronahi> we started it, 
[11:24] <erdalronahi> mostly the north 
[11:24] <erdalronahi> that is Turkey
[11:24] <erdalronahi> but I am in Europe
[11:24] <jenda> I see.
[11:24] <erdalronahi> one is from Iran
[11:24] <jenda> Would that be freddyubuntu?
[11:24] <nealmcb> very exciting - congrats, folks!
[11:24] <erdalronahi> Kurdish is spoken by ~25 million people
[11:25] <erdalronahi> but forbidden almost everywhere
[11:25] <jenda> interesting.
[11:25] <erdalronahi> just in Iraq it is changing now
[11:25] <mako> erdalronahi: arent' central and southern kurdish very different?
[11:25] <erdalronahi> but that's just a small fraction
[11:25] <erdalronahi> yes
[11:25] <erdalronahi> quite different
[11:25] <jenda> So I heard. Any chance in Turkey?
 :)
[11:25] <mako> erdalronahi: can one translation cover both?
[11:25] <erdalronahi> well, ours should be understandable, but 
[11:25] <erdalronahi> no
[11:25] <mako> erdalronahi: also, is kurdish written in non-latin scripts?
[11:26] <erdalronahi> not really
[11:26] <mako> erdalronahi: which kurdish are you translating into?
[11:26] <erdalronahi> yes, especially central Kurdish in arabic script
[11:26] <erdalronahi> northern
[11:26] <erdalronahi> in latin
[11:26] <erdalronahi> script
[11:26] <erdalronahi> Windows will be translated into the other big dialect
[11:26] <jenda> How many people are working on this?
[11:26] <erdalronahi> Central Kurdish with arabic script
[11:27] <mako> erdalronahi: can you do machine translation?
[11:27] <erdalronahi> at the moment about half a dozen steadily
[11:27] <erdalronahi> from one script to the other?
[11:27] <erdalronahi> or from English, what do you mean?
[11:27] <jenda> Which group (Central/Arabic vs. Northern/Latin) is more numerous?
[11:27] <mako> erdalronahi: you might be interested in talking to danilo segan who helps maintain translations in both latin and cyrillic serbian
[11:27] <erdalronahi> Northern
[11:27] <jenda> half a dozen ;) Congrats. It's a lot of work.
[11:27] <erdalronahi> but the problem is, because it's forbidden everywhere
[11:27] <erdalronahi> there is no formal education, 
[11:27] <erdalronahi> no standardization
[11:27] <jenda> OK
[11:28] <erdalronahi> and people from different regions 
[11:28] <erdalronahi> yes, thanks
[11:28] <erdalronahi> what was that with machine translation?
[11:29] <erdalronahi> It is possible to convert the alphabets into one another
[11:29] <erdalronahi> mako, was that the question
[11:29] <erdalronahi> ?
[11:29] <nealmcb> do you have contacts in the central/arabic community?
[11:30] <erdalronahi> little
[11:30] <mako> elmo: yes
[11:30] <erdalronahi> there is vrtually no existing free software project
[11:30] <mako> sorry
[11:30] <mako> erdalronahi: yes, that was the question
[11:30] <erdalronahi> I have written scripts for that
[11:31] <mako> great :)
[11:31] <mako> erdalronahi: you might want to send a mail or talk on IRC with danilo
[11:31] <erdalronahi> yes, thanks
[11:31] <mako> erdalronahi: he has a lot of software to do similar things that people in other language have been using
[11:31] <erdalronahi> we had similar issues on the wikipedia
[11:31] <mako> erdalronahi: well it's great to have you on board
[11:31] <erdalronahi> to convert articles automatically
[11:31] <erdalronahi> thanks a lot, 
[11:32] <erdalronahi> we especially like the attitude of Ubuntu
[11:32] <mako> i'm thrilled you're going to make ubuntu the first kurdish language distribution :)
[11:32] <erdalronahi> that makes it easy for weak groups like ours
[11:32] <erdalronahi> it is already, it is usable
[11:32] <erdalronahi> in Kurdish
[11:32] <nealmcb> strong-hearted groups like yours!!
[11:32] <mako> erdalronahi: do you have screenshots?
[11:32] <erdalronahi> Ubuntu has Kurdish firefox before Mozilla has
[11:32] <erdalronahi> :)
[11:32] <jenda> wow ;)
[11:33] <mako> erdalronahi: i have a few kurdish friends here, i'll show them :)
[11:33] <erdalronahi> http://linux.ferheng.org/linux.html
[11:33] <mako> erdalronahi: they'll probably be impressed :)
[11:33] <erdalronahi> screenshots
[11:33] <jenda> amazing LoCo work, really. I'm saving this log for the Czech LoCo to see.
[11:33] <erdalronahi> mako, where is "here"?
[11:35] <nealmcb> General question: are you now considering these locos to be "official", whatever that really means?
[11:35] <erdalronahi> yes, I have a question with that
[11:35] <erdalronahi> we registered www.ubuntu-ku.org
[11:35] <erdalronahi> later I was told that I shouldn't
[11:35] <erdalronahi> the owner must be Canonical
[11:36] <elmo> erdalronahi: how long have you guys been active?
[11:36] <erdalronahi> since warty
[11:36] <erdalronahi> breezy had a Kurdish locale, but no translations
[11:36] <erdalronahi> Dapper has Keyboards and translations
[11:36] <mako> erdalronahi: boston
[11:37] <mako> awesome :)
[11:37] <erdalronahi> probably from the south then? they are invited to help
[11:37] <nixternal> mako: the salty dog?
[11:38] <erdalronahi> We have a wish, too, 
[11:38] <erdalronahi> maybe not the place here,
[11:38] <erdalronahi> but in Turkey and Iran there are lots of Winmodems around
[11:38] <erdalronahi> I know that has been discussed, 
[11:38] <mako> in the interest of time, we should really move on
[11:38] <elmo> yes ;)
[11:38] <erdalronahi> yes,
[11:38] <mako> but thanks erdalronahi for your work and for introducing it here
[11:39] <mako> great stuff
[11:39] <erdalronahi> thank you for your time
[11:39] <mako> any other locos?
[11:39] <mako> i am going to turn into a pumpkin in half an hour
[11:39] <nealmcb> So are we official now?
[11:39] <Seveas> nealmcb, yes
[11:39] <nealmcb> :-)
[11:39] <nixternal> thank you mako, thank you CC!!!
[11:39] <mako> any other locos? going twice
[11:40] <mako> JoeyStanford: no way :)
[11:40] <mako> JoeyStanford: detroit has had KICKING loco for a long time
[11:40] <JoeyStanford> You're second buddy :-)
[11:40] <nixternal> they haven't moved us yet
[11:40] <jenda> break it up ;)
[11:40] <JoeyStanford> lol yeah, the wiki needs to be updated
[11:40] <nixternal> oh ya, Detroit had a huge release party as well!!
[11:40] <mako> alright
[11:40] <Toadstool> (/me whispers "hi everybody")
[11:40] <mako> new member candidates
[11:41] <sharms2> I am here.
[11:41] <mako> for the few and the strong that have survived this far
[11:41] <Seveas> JoeyStanford is the first
[11:41] <Seveas> (whitesoft isn't around)
[11:41] <mako> Seveas: ah, ok
[11:41] <heno> I have to go in about 10 min though :(
[11:41] <mako> JoeyStanford: ok.. we're already familiar with your work
[11:41] <JoeyStanford> lol
[11:41] <nixternal> nice
[11:41] <JoeyStanford> I have a pitch but it's smaller than the loco
[11:41] <Seveas> JoeyStanford, *pfew*
[11:41] <JoeyStanford> Go or skip? :-)
[11:42] <Seveas> go
[11:42] <elmo> let's do heno quickly if he has to go?
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> Greetings.
[11:42] <JoeyStanford>  Thank you for allowing me a few minutes of your time today. My wiki entry is: 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JoeyStanford    (note the TABS at the top of the page)
[11:42] <nealmcb> joey can you do it in one long line?
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> I am applying for Ubuntu Membership today. If you deem me not ready, I would very much like guidance on how/what to 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> improve so I may reapply in the future.
[11:42] <heno> elmo: thanks, after Joey
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> About myself: I'm very passionate about Free/Open Software. I have been using GNU/Linux since the mid-1990s and have 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> been using Ubuntu since Warty. I made the switch to using only Ubuntu in my personal life in 2004. 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> I am active in a few 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> non-Ubuntu F/OSS projects but I am most well known as an OpenOffice.org Project Lead. 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> I founded both the OOo Esperanto L10N Team and the Esperanto Native Lang Team (yes, Esperanto has "de naska" (from 
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> birth) speakers!) and, in general, I help out a number of other (non-translation based) OOo projects.  Neal also speaks Esperanto btw
[11:42] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> My Ubuntu Activities: I am the founder and current Team Leader of the Colorado Local Community Team, the co-lead for the 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> Ubuntu Esperanto Team, and a participant on the Marketing and Laptop Testing Teams. My Launchpad Karma is steadily 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> growing too. :-)
[11:43] <JoeyStanford>  A mostly-complete list of my contributions to Ubuntu can be found on my wiki page. 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> My Future Participation in Ubuntu: I will remain, for the foreseeable future, the team lead for the Colorado Team. I 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> have great aspirations of continuing to grow the user base and outreach programs as well as helping local Ubuntu users.
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> I've set the full goals to 'paper' on the Team's wiki entry: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColoradoTeam
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> I also have a standing commitment to my Ubuntu Esperanto Teammate, Tim Morley, that I will continue to assist with 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> translations, builds, organizational activities, and other activities. 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> I am also eager to see how I can increase my 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> participation in the Marketing Team via the team's projects (SpreadUbuntu, Ubuntu Magazine, etc.) as they deploy.
[11:43] <Seveas> that
[11:43] <JoeyStanford>  A 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> complete list of my aspirations and goals can be found on my wiki page.
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> 
[11:43] <Seveas> isn't smaller 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> I wish to thank you all again for your time today. I welcome any questions you may have.  This concludes my 
[11:43] <JoeyStanford> introduction.  Thank you.
[11:43] <Toadstool> pfew, at least it was shorter than the locoteam intro :P
[11:43] <mako> c'mon man
[11:43] <nixternal> haha
[11:44] <JoeyStanford> I'm a project manager and I had material ready. :-)
[11:44] <jenda> So, JoeyStanford, who did you say you were?
[11:44] <nixternal> scroll up
[11:44] <jenda> mako: JoeyStanford has also helped out bits and pieces, definitely noticeable, with the budding Marketing Team.
[11:44] <mako> JoeyStanford: are you a native esperanto speaker?
[11:44] <JoeyStanford> mako: not native.
[11:44] <nealmcb> Again, I'm https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NealMcBurnett   I've worked with Joey for two years on various projects including Ubuntu and Linux.  Joey has an enormous amount of energy, and is experienced in a wide variety of fields: technical, project leadership, organizational, security.  He gives great Ubuntu talks for local Linux Users Groups.  He is very community-minded, and organizes people and activities well.  And he has a smile that simply radiates
[11:45] <JoeyStanford> wow, thanks neal
[11:45] <JoeyStanford> and Jenda
[11:45] <nixternal> im also a +1 on Joey as I have worked with him with the Ubuntu Magazine, and he guided me with getting the Ubuntu Chicago LoCo up, we need more people like him in the community!!!
[11:45] <mako> your LP page?
[11:46] <Seveas> https://launchpad.net/people/joey-stan4d
[11:46] <nealmcb> but his esperanto accent needs a lot of work to recover from growing up in New York
[11:46] <mako> thanks
[11:47] <mako> great :)
[11:47] <mako> i'm happy with JoeyStanford as a member
[11:47] <mako> elmo, Kamion?
[11:47] <elmo> +1
[11:47] <mako> who is the next person here?
[11:47] <Kamion> how could I not, with such an intro ;-)
[11:48] <JoeyStanford> lol
[11:48] <mako> Kamion: i almost didn't BECAUSE of the intro
[11:48] <mako> ;)
[11:48] <gnomefreak> heno: was next because he has to go?
[11:48] <heno> :)
[11:48] <juantao_> Jon Dowd
[11:48] <jenda> Congratulations, JoeyStanford. Knew you could make it 
[11:48] <mako> heno: go ahead henrik
[11:48] <Seveas> juantao_, please wait
[11:48] <heno> Hi folks
[11:48] <JoeyStanford> Thanks everyone.
[11:48] <juantao_> k
[11:48] <heno> - I started TheOpenCD project in 2002, which is the upstream for the Ubuntu WinFOSS. 
[11:48] <heno> - I've been working on Ubuntu since August 2004. First with the WinFOSS selection, then as webmaster and now focusing on accessibility and non-software content
[11:48] <heno> - I'm sort of an adopted member of the core development team, though I'm not a developer :)
[11:48] <heno> - For this release I want to try to put some more weight behind our claim of having the best accessibility support available. I think we are just ahead of the other major distros now by a nose, but we should work to set a new standard. 
[11:48] <heno> - I like the phrase 'computing for everyone'
[11:49] <mako> i can't beleive heno isn't a member already
[11:49] <Seveas> likewise
[11:49] <heno> sorry, left it a bit late ;-p
[11:49] <elmo> I think this falls under the "obvious" category (c.f. gcc etc. commit rules)
[11:50] <heno> wanted tomake sure I could show sustained effort ...
[11:50] <mako> usually a like a little more smalltalk but i disappear in 15 minutes so :)
[11:50] <mako> heno: you win on both counts
[11:50] <mako> heno: well you've got my vote :)
[11:50] <mako> Kamion: make it official?
[11:50] <mako> juantao_: you're up!
[11:50] <juantao_> worth the wait, this has been very educational and heart-warming.
[11:51] <mako> heno: i think i'll risk welcoming you prematurely
[11:51] <heno> cool, thanks!
[11:51] <mako> heno: thanks for sticking through the meeting
[11:51] <Kamion> yes, been working with heno for ages and obviously have no problem at all with him, huge sustained/significant contribution
[11:52] <Seveas> juantao_, please introduce yourself
[11:52] <juantao_> My name is Jon Dowd and I live in Ashland Oregon (USA). Support manager small (7,000 users) ISP, by day. Evenings are spent rebuilding computers donated to www.computerdropoff.org the prior Saturday with using Ubuntu exclusively.
[11:52] <mako> heno: if every candidate was as commically overqualified for membership as you, our meetings would be of a more sane length
[11:52] <heno> :)
[11:52] <juantao_> In February I drove my little truck 5,000 miles to New Orleans donating computers to former Black Panther and founder of Common Ground Relief. I set up a small LAN in his garage to help assist coordination of their efforts (summer home to 2,000 student volunteers. Came home one week later and opened a center where we take in donated computers, install Ubuntu and prepare them for delivery this August.
[11:52] <mako> juantao_: i love ashland :)
[11:52] <juantao_> it IS paradise
[11:53] <juantao_> These efforts will result in placing Ubuntu computers in several schools. Although I applaud the efforts many are making in Edubuntu, for our needs (older students) Ubuntu is better suited.
[11:53] <mako> tjat
[11:53] <mako> that's great
[11:54] <mako> what are your contributions in the ubuntu community to date?
[11:54] <juantao_> promoting Ubuntu to all and putting it on all the computers i touch
[11:55] <juantao_> (small compared to others here today)
[11:55] <mako> juantao_: well, that's not necessary the case
[11:55] <juantao_> but I touch 5 /10 computers a week - they all get Ubuntu!
[11:55] <jenda> juantao_: you're a person who should definitely be in #ubuntu-marketing, on a side note ;)
[11:55] <mako> juantao_: but we usually ask for documentation ad/or testimonials from the community
[11:55] <mako> jenda: right, for example
[11:56] <mako> i can imagine a number of other places in the community where you energy/effort could be integrated
[11:56] <juantao_> sorry, i dont think i'm known
[11:56] <juantao_> we are on the cusp of a really big thing here , aren't we?
[11:56] <mako> with ubuntu?
[11:56] <juantao_> yes 
[11:56] <mako> i think so :)
[11:56] <juantao_> changing the world
[11:57] <juantao_> as in what we pay for and defining free
[11:57] <mako> juantao_: so ubuntu related advocacy work is a great way to qualify for membership
[11:57] <juantao_> well i thuought so and showed up.
[11:58] <juantao_> signed the contract
[11:58] <mako> juantao_: but its easier for us to be able to recognize it with a bit more documentation and integration with the rest of the community
[11:58] <mako> juantao_: well, that's the first step
[11:58] <juantao_> sure.
[11:58] <juantao_> I can wait, 
[11:58] <Seveas> bddebian, you bribed ogra
[11:58] <mako> juantao_: i would suggest you look at the marketing team or the doc team or any number of other parts of the community
[11:58] <juantao_> sure
[11:58] <bddebian> Seveas: Oh yeah, thx :-)
[11:58] <mako> maybe in a monht or so pull together a few testimionials from other folks
[11:59] <mako> juantao_: shouldn't be controverisla :)
[11:59] <Toadstool> bddebian: you're a god, remember? ;)
[11:59] <jenda> juantao_: you're always welcome in the marketing team ;)
[11:59] <juantao_> i'll do it, and come back
[11:59] <mako> juantao_: if you're alright with that, i'd just as soon proceed
[11:59] <LaserJock> juantao_: edubuntu would also be probably interested in your experiecene with the schools
[11:59] <mako> juantao_: great! thanks for showing up and for your work so far!
[11:59] <mako> looking forward to great things in the future
[11:59] <juantao_> thanks, I'll paste this in a memo - ya'll are GREAT !
[11:59] <mako> crap, i have another meeting starting like now
[11:59] <Seveas> mako, eep :/
[12:00] <mako> who else is here
[12:00] <sharms2> I am here
[12:00] <lfittl> me
[12:00] <Sp4rKy> me
[12:00] <Seveas> Sp4rKy, nixternal alenitchev lfittl 
[12:00] <gnomefreak> Seveas: sharms2 also
[12:00] <mako> alright
[12:00] <mako> alenitchev: you're next in line
[12:00] <alenitchev> Hello
[12:00] <alenitchev> My name is Dmitri Alenitchev. I'm 19 years old and live in Moscow region, Russia. At present moment i work in small software company, "Digital Worlds J.S.C." at System Administrator position. In my work i use Free and Open Source software.
[12:01] <alenitchev> Since 2000 year i use GNU/Linux as my primary OS. Also, i use FreeBSD and OpenBSD. My contribution to Open Source project was started from packaging and documentation works for Russian RPM-based Linux distribution - ALTLinux. I make some works for another RPM distribution - Fedora Core Linux. My first translations to Russian language i make for Fedora Core. Since summer, 2005 I'm official GNU Webmaster. Also, i make some works for various GNU 
[12:01] <alenitchev> projects. 
[12:01] <Seveas> mako, err, Sp4rKy was...
[12:01] <alenitchev> Since 2005 year i become maintainer of `manpages-ru' package in Debian, included in Ubuntu. In this year i start making works for OpenOffice.org (documentation, translation and QA).
[12:01] <Sp4rKy> I'm Maxence DUNNEWIND ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaxenceDunnewind ) , actually i try to help a lot of people on IRC (mainly at #ubuntu-fr / #ubuntu-fr-testing) . I also start with packaging few weeks ago, and my first package (yerinia) has been accepted today in universe repositories. I hope i'll could  help many people with ubuntu or convert some of them from Windows to Ubuntu (i coach a Free software && Linux training in few d
[12:01] <Sp4rKy> ays). I hope to create more package and maybe help new packagers and why not become a MOTU. I'm actually working on a enlightenment DR17 repository for Ubuntu.
[12:01] <alenitchev> My interests in Ubuntu is participating in works for better hardware support, packaging, translation in Russian language, documentation, QA. I think about 3-5 hours work for Ubuntu every day.
[12:01] <mako> ergh. sorry
[12:01] <bddebian> Ack my eyes
[12:01] <Seveas> ah well, we now had both intros 
[12:02] <mako> umm.. Sp4rKy lets go ahead with you since you were next in line
[12:02] <Sp4rKy> k
[12:02] <Sp4rKy> do you see my intro ?
[12:03] <mako> yes
[12:03] <mako> any testimonials?
[12:03] <Toadstool> yep
[12:03] <Sp4rKy> yes gloubiboulga at wiki
[12:03] <Sp4rKy> toadstool
[12:03] <Sp4rKy> and maybe bddebian 
[12:03] <jenda> I've seen Sp4rKy help out on IRC quite a bit.
[12:03] <Toadstool> Sp4rKy is of great help on #ubuntu-fr and #ubuntu-fr-testing
[12:03] <Toadstool> and he's started packaging a few weeks ago and he's doing a great job
[12:04] <bddebian> Aye, Sp4rKy has bene working on packaging
[12:04] <Sp4rKy> yep
[12:04] <Sp4rKy> yersinia , my first package, was just accepted to Universe :)
[12:04] <mako> i saw the two on the wiki
[12:05] <mako> Sp4rKy: how long have you been active in ubuntu?
[12:05] <mako> Sp4rKy: how long have you been doing packaging stuff?
[12:05] <Sp4rKy> i'm active at IRC since about 2 years
[12:05] <Sp4rKy> i've wrote my first french tutorial 1year ago
[12:05] <Sp4rKy> and i've started packaging since about  2/3 month ago
[12:06] <Sp4rKy> and actually works on some packages
[12:06] <Sp4rKy> and an e17 repository
[12:06] <mako> right
[12:07] <mako> well, a little more documentation would be nice
[12:07] <mako> but i'm happy approving Sp4rKy for membership
[12:07] <mako> and i just got a call from the person i am standing up for a meeting right now
[12:08] <mako> so i'm going to have to disappear
[12:08] <mako> if Kamion or elmo can guide through the rest of this, i'm happy to put in my 2cents later
[12:08] <mako> otherwise, we'll have to pick up later
[12:08] <nixternal> take care mako, and thanks for listening!!!
[12:08] <elmo> mako: thanks
[12:08] <Kamion> I'm happy with Sp4rKy too
[12:08] <elmo> yeah, +1 from me
[12:08] <mako> see you all next time guys
[12:08] <mako> Sp4rKy: welcome! :)
[12:09] <jenda> later
[12:09] <mako> and goodbye :)
[12:09] <gnomefreak> later mako 
[12:09] <Seveas> ciao mako 
[12:09] <elmo> who's left to do?
[12:09] <elmo> (that's here)
[12:09] <lfittl> me
[12:09] <Toadstool> congratulations Sp4rKy !
[12:09] <Sp4rKy> thanx mako Kamion elmo  !
[12:09] <bddebian> Yeah Sp4rKy
[12:09] <Sp4rKy> thanx CC
[12:09] <Sp4rKy> thx bddebian Toadstool !!!
[12:09] <bddebian> OK guys I have to run but:
[12:09] <Sp4rKy> and gloubi of course
[12:09] <bddebian> nixternal+
[12:09] <nixternal> thx bddebian
[12:09] <bddebian> sharms2+
[12:09] <Sp4rKy> (and jenda too )
[12:09] <jenda> 
[12:09] <jenda> let's move ;)
[12:09] <elmo> ok, 4 more.  guys, you can either postpoone till next time, or we can talk to you now and have mako vote later after catching up on the logs
[12:10] <nixternal> now ;)
[12:10] <alenitchev> now
[12:10] <lfittl> now would be better