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| jbailey | BenC: MWAHAHAHAHAH | 12:50 |
|---|---|---|
| jbailey | I mean. | 12:50 |
| jbailey | It's all good. =) | 12:50 |
| chuck_ | who...xen-image-2.6.16-1-xen-686_2.6.16-1_i386.deb | 12:55 |
| jbailey | Nice! | 12:58 |
| jbailey | Next I should make libc6-xen not suck. | 12:58 |
| jbailey | Hmm | 12:58 |
| jbailey | Maybe later this week. | 12:59 |
| jbailey | Still one more merge to do tomorrow. | 12:59 |
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| zul | hey | 02:13 |
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| zul | hey BenC | 05:06 |
| BenC | hey | 05:21 |
| BenC | kernel-wedge is done, finishing up kernel-package | 05:21 |
| zul | cool... | 05:21 |
| BenC | infinity, jbailey: ping | 05:46 |
| zul | whoo...lunch time | 05:46 |
| jbailey | BenC: pong, about to go for lunch | 05:46 |
| BenC | jbailey: nm, I'll ask adam about initramfs-tools | 05:49 |
| Keybuk | ask him which? | 05:49 |
| BenC | I want to sync it with debian along with kernel-{package,wedge} | 05:50 |
| jbailey | BenC: I'm doing initramfs-tools | 05:50 |
| jbailey | Don't sync it. | 05:50 |
| jbailey | It would break alot of things. | 05:50 |
| BenC | ah, ok | 05:50 |
| jbailey | Like, anyone who needs a framebuffer to work. =) | 05:51 |
| BenC | I'm really surprised that kernel-package isn't using update-initramfs now that it's in debian's initramfs-tools | 05:52 |
| fabbione | jbailey: while you are at it can you also look at the bug i did open today? | 05:52 |
| BenC | anyone know how debian is doing this...I recall they had a smimilar tool now | 05:52 |
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| BenC | Keybuk: kernel-wedge uploaded | 06:40 |
| BenC | kernel-package is almost done | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | cool | 06:40 |
| jbailey | BenC: Debian still supports yaird. | 07:03 |
| zul | yaird? | 07:05 |
| Keybuk | yet-another-init-rd | 07:06 |
| zul | ah ok | 07:06 |
| jbailey | Creative naming and all. =) | 07:17 |
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| zul | hehe.. | 07:17 |
| makx | BenC: mkinitramfs-kpkg | 07:36 |
| makx | wrapper around mkinitramfs | 07:36 |
| makx | Manoj wanted to stay on old style calling convention of initrd/initramfs generators | 07:36 |
| makx | yaird is dead water doesn't have decent uuid support | 07:37 |
| BenC | where's that script come from? | 07:37 |
| jbailey | makx: Does yaird's author consider it dead yet? | 07:38 |
| jbailey | makx: Are do we still have to crush it with proper dep support in initramfs-tools. | 07:38 |
| makx | jbailey mia since end of last year | 07:38 |
| makx | proper dep support is on my TODO list | 07:39 |
| BenC | let's see how badly I screwed up this kernel-package sync | 07:39 |
| makx | but i'd prefer to have klibc only initramfs before | 07:39 |
| makx | that is much higher priority | 07:39 |
| makx | BenC: yaird is a perl vodoo | 07:41 |
| jbailey | makx: infinity said that he thought dep mode should be easy enough to do with the infrastructure in there. | 07:41 |
| BenC | makx: No, I want to know where mkinitramfs-kpkg comes from :) | 07:41 |
| jbailey | But that klibc-only meant that you need to have some ability to detect when it's going to need more and then go all glibc/busybox. | 07:42 |
| makx | BenC: initramfs-tools | 07:42 |
| jbailey | Oh? | 07:42 |
| jbailey | I haven't started the merge yet, is that something I need to bring into Ubuntu? | 07:42 |
| makx | jbailey: busybox needing boot scripts put an echo "BUSYBOX=y" in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/conf.d/<package> | 07:42 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: which merge haven't you started yet ? | 07:43 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: initramfs-tools. | 07:43 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: !! | 07:43 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: I'm not doing any other merges. | 07:43 |
| makx | jbaley: depends on your kernel-package | 07:43 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: What, there''s still 4 hours left in my workdayu. | 07:43 |
| makx | uups evident typo | 07:43 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: hehe, you think you can do it in 4 hours? :p | 07:44 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: I sponsor almost every upload to Debian. | 07:44 |
| Keybuk | fair enough | 07:44 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: That's why I still know the code as well as I do. =) | 07:44 |
| Keybuk | a klibc-only initramfs always seems like a waste of effort | 07:44 |
| Keybuk | you have to compile everything twice, once for klibc and once for glibc | 07:44 |
| makx | nack | 07:45 |
| Keybuk | and then you find something that doesn't work with klibc, and *boom* you may as well just go back to glibc again | 07:45 |
| BenC | if it was done right, it'd be awesome though | 07:45 |
| Keybuk | sure, if we didn't need evms, lvm, etc. I'd love it | 07:45 |
| makx | you get a much smaller initramfs | 07:45 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: Given that klibc's on the running system, for anythign appropriate, you should just compile it once with klibc. | 07:45 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: disagree, you can't debug things compiled with klibc | 07:45 |
| BenC | yeah, having klibc+glibc in initramfs isn't so bad | 07:45 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: I've used gdb on klibc binaries. | 07:46 |
| Keybuk | BenC: except it somewhat defeats the point of compiling things additionally against klibc in the first place ... at that point you may as well just compile them against glibc | 07:46 |
| makx | Keybuk: more and more things will get klibc ready | 07:46 |
| Keybuk | makx: really? | 07:47 |
| BenC | klibc+glibc in corner cases isn't that bad, if we can make most installs klibs only | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | given that the udev upstream has abandoned all attempts to make it work with klibc, I'd challenge that | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | likewise the modprobe upstream | 07:47 |
| jbailey | Isn't modprobe and udev upstream the same person? ;) | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | ^ new | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | no, modprobe upstream is Jon Masters (now) and previously Rusty Russell | 07:47 |
| fabbione | Keybuk: well because klibc was not entering linus tree | 07:47 |
| fabbione | it is on its way now | 07:47 |
| Keybuk | I'm all for a klibc-ONLY initramfs, don't get me wrong | 07:48 |
| makx | kpartx works already | 07:48 |
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| fabbione | Keybuk: oh i was just explaining what will push upstreams to work with klibc | 07:48 |
| BenC | eh, we should strive to get rid of glibc even on the running system and do klibc only :) | 07:49 |
| === Keybuk makes BenC stand in the corner | ||
| Keybuk | that's almost Tollef levels of evilness | 07:49 |
| jbailey | BenC: Spoken like a former glibc maintainer. =) | 07:49 |
| fabbione | BenC: then we will see klibc growing up to libc7 | 07:49 |
| BenC | if you all continue to blame everything on the kernel, then I have no choice but to put everything in it :) | 07:49 |
| fabbione | BenC: let's merge gcc and glibc into the kernel source | 07:50 |
| fabbione | boot strap of death | 07:50 |
| BenC | hehe, a bootstrap with real reboots :) | 07:50 |
| jbailey | They proposed merging a c compiler in at one point. | 07:50 |
| Keybuk | can we get X merged into the kernel too? | 07:51 |
| fabbione | jbailey: there is already a bootloader that can build the kernel at boot time | 07:51 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: tcc? | 07:51 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: I don't remember which one, but it was along the lines of "We don't trust the optimisers anyway, so why not just use our own compiler?" | 07:51 |
| cjb | Keybuk: X already *is* in the kernel, silly. | 07:51 |
| BenC | X is just a kernel extension anyway...why give it a life of it's own | 07:52 |
| fabbione | BenC: yeah right.. why all this drm/dri sync issues.. let's just add mesa and server and drivers to the kernel | 07:53 |
| BenC | hmm...new kernel package screws up my automated build scripts | 07:53 |
| Keybuk | actually, if we stick everything in the kernel, it'll stop them being evil and thinking about putting partition detection into userspace | 07:53 |
| Keybuk | or filesystems into userspace, etc. | 07:53 |
| BenC | or proposing perl/python/c++ kernel modules | 07:54 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: Partition detection is *already* in userspace. | 07:54 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: We just need to get the last dregs out of the kernel. | 07:54 |
| Keybuk | I know, and I hate it | 07:55 |
| BenC | like the part that reads the partion map? :) | 07:55 |
| jbailey | BenC: If you use evms, and (I think) LVM, all of that is redone by a userspace daemon anyway. | 07:55 |
| BenC | partition map could be done in userspace now, I think | 07:55 |
| Keybuk | thank god evms and lvm are gone from our default install | 07:56 |
| jbailey | Did we pitch lvm? | 07:56 |
| BenC | using stuff like loop devices to point to block offsets on a drive | 07:56 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: yeah, it's something that shouldn't be in by default | 07:56 |
| Keybuk | if people want it, it can be installed | 07:56 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: lvm is Good And Right, dude. =) | 07:57 |
| Keybuk | no, it, is, not | 07:57 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: The problem with just doing things on raw partitions is that it's hard to do anythign useful later on. | 07:57 |
| jbailey | You can't just add a drive and span the partition, or add a drive and mirror. | 07:57 |
| BenC | lvm doesn't scale well | 07:57 |
| Keybuk | the idea might be cute, but the implementation is from the dark ages | 07:58 |
| BenC | try creating > 800 logical volumes, and then restart lvm (if you actually get them created) | 07:58 |
| BenC | you'll see what I mean | 07:59 |
| === jbailey tries to imagine a system where 800 LVs would be a good idea. | ||
| BenC | office fileserver | 07:59 |
| BenC | where each user has his own logical volume | 08:00 |
| jbailey | To overcome how badly the quota system sucks? =) | 08:00 |
| BenC | does away with silly quota stuff | 08:00 |
| BenC | :) | 08:00 |
| BenC | I actually used it in a commercial produce (www.swissdisk.com) so each customer has an encrypted filesystem | 08:01 |
| BenC | s/produce/product/ | 08:01 |
| jbailey | Ah, I could see that. | 08:01 |
| BenC | I had to man handle the meta-data areas | 08:01 |
| jbailey | Although if you're doing that, you really want to make sure that it doesn't pre-allocate all the space for each user. | 08:01 |
| BenC | hack the hell out of the userspace tools, just to keep things limping along | 08:01 |
| BenC | the main problem is that it takes 20 minutes to start lvm | 08:03 |
| BenC | rebooting the e4500 takes 10 minutes already...requiring 30 minutes for a reboot cycle minimum | 08:04 |
| maswan | Yeah. I can see that sucking. Transparently migrating and extending filesystems does rock though. One of my favourite parts of AIX is the everything-on-lvm bit. | 08:04 |
| BenC | yeah, the whole idea of lvm kicks ass | 08:05 |
| BenC | but I agree with Keybuk, the implementation sucks ass | 08:05 |
| Keybuk | all you really want is the ability to tell the kernel to create a block device, based on other block devices | 08:05 |
| Keybuk | e.g. "foo1" is "sda1 from block 512 to block 1000" and then "sda2 from block 0 to block 1024" | 08:05 |
| Keybuk | and have the kernel map foo1 block requests to the underlying physical blocks | 08:06 |
| Keybuk | then you could set the block maps from udev | 08:06 |
| Keybuk | and as foo1 would have a kobject in the block subsystem, udev would also know about virtual block devices | 08:06 |
| BenC | dpkg-gencontrol: error: package linux-headers-2.6.17-5-g3611c20c-dirty not in control info | 08:07 |
| BenC | kernel-package is really whacked out on this | 08:07 |
| jbailey | BenC: Noone's really working on a better lvm, are they? | 08:07 |
| BenC | "they seem me rollin', they hatin', patrollin' and trying to catch me ridin dirty" | 08:07 |
| BenC | jbailey: not that I know of | 08:08 |
| Keybuk | actually, it strikes me that the above would not be difficult to implement | 08:09 |
| maswan | I still remember the painful migration to lvm2 | 08:09 |
| maswan | It would be good if someone got it right, really right. :) | 08:10 |
| makx | fedora does default lvm installs irc | 08:13 |
| makx | didn't knew that the ubuntu default installs no longer do it | 08:14 |
| cjb | Nah, not default, just easy to add. There's an lvm button. | 08:14 |
| makx | without lvm2 even more args for klibc initramfs-tools: faster boot | 08:15 |
| Keybuk | makx: not much faster | 08:21 |
| Keybuk | it's all in RAM anyway | 08:21 |
| Keybuk | cjb: that's the same theory we're taking, if someone clicks "LVM" in the installer, we can always add it | 08:21 |
| BenC | Keybuk: kernel-package looks ok, but I want to do a full 6-arch build with it to make sure | 08:56 |
| BenC | probably upload in a few hours | 08:56 |
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| Keybuk | okey dokey | 09:09 |
| mdz | Keybuk: that's exactly what device-mapper does | 09:38 |
| Keybuk | mdz: except that device mapper is its own subsystem, and doesn't just use the block subsystem | 09:39 |
| Keybuk | and device-mapper isn't kobjectified | 09:40 |
| Keybuk | etc. | 09:40 |
| BenC | anyone familiar with the debconf voodoo? | 09:50 |
| BenC | new kernel-package image postrm script calls purge() and it seems to be causing the postrm script to fail for some unknown reason (even though it "exit 0"'s at the end) | 09:51 |
| BenC | if I comment out "my $ret = purge();", the script finishes and dpkg is happy | 09:52 |
| BenC | excuse me, the script finishes no matter what, but with the purge() dpkg gets a non-zero exit | 09:52 |
| cjb | Perl implicitly returns the last scalar evaled as a ret value. | 09:53 |
| cjb | So if the exit 0 isn't in the path, I'd say that purge() is failing and it's being passed on. | 09:53 |
| cjb | But I don't know the code. Just letting you know that there's an implicit 'return $ret' on the end if that's the last assignment in the sub. | 09:54 |
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| BenC | so $ret is special? | 09:57 |
| cjb | No, the last assignment of a sub is special. | 09:58 |
| BenC | my $ret = purge(); | 09:59 |
| BenC | .... | 09:59 |
| BenC | exit 0; | 09:59 |
| cjb | Ah. | 09:59 |
| BenC | the .... is mainly a var and a for loop | 09:59 |
| cjb | Dunno, then. | 09:59 |
| cjb | You're sure it's hitting exit 0, rather than an exit 1 inside purge() or something? | 10:00 |
| BenC | yeah | 10:00 |
| BenC | I placed warn's all the way down to just before the exit | 10:00 |
| zul | later | 10:04 |
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| jbailey | Uh oh, someone from BC.. | 10:49 |
| Keybuk | jbailey: yeah, I've sent the boys around to find out what's happened to initramfs-tools :p | 10:55 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: Hmm? | 10:57 |
| jbailey | Oh, lol =) | 10:58 |
| Keybuk | ya know what, I'm going to entirely abandon our n-m packages | 10:58 |
| Keybuk | and just fix the Debian ones | 10:58 |
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| crimsun | that sounds entirely reasonable. | 11:40 |
| jbailey | Keybuk: You could rejoin Debian and hijack the package ;) | 12:01 |
| Keybuk | that would involve touching n-m :) | 12:03 |
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| johanbr | jbailey: Yes, watch out for us coffee-drinking hippies. | 12:08 |
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