[12:10] <bddebian> Oh and lfittl+ ( I see his name all over :-) )
[12:10] <Kamion> ok
[12:10] <lfittl> bddebian: thanks :)
[12:10] <sharms2> bddebian: thank you
[12:10] <elmo> ok, alenitchev I think you're next on the list
[12:10] <elmo> alenitchev: wanna do your intro?
[12:11] <alenitchev> ok
[12:11] <alenitchev> My name is Dmitri Alenitchev. I'm 19 years old and live in Moscow region, Russia. At present moment i work in small software company, "Digital Worlds J.S.C." at System Administrator position. In my work i use Free and Open Source software.
[12:11] <alenitchev> Since 2000 year i use GNU/Linux as my primary OS. Also, i use FreeBSD and OpenBSD. My contribution to Open Source project was started from packaging and documentation works for Russian RPM-based Linux distribution - ALTLinux. I make some works for another RPM distribution - Fedora Core Linux. My first translations to Russian language i make for Fedora Core. Since summer, 2005 I'm official GNU Webmaster. Also, i make some works for various GNU 
[12:11] <alenitchev> projects.
[12:11] <alenitchev> Since 2005 year i become maintainer of `manpages-ru' package in Debian, included in Ubuntu. In this year i start making works for OpenOffice.org (documentation, translation and QA).
[12:11] <alenitchev> My interests in Ubuntu is participating in works for better hardware support, packaging, translation in Russian language, documentation, QA. I think about 3-5 hours work for Ubuntu every day.
[12:11] <alenitchev> use Ubuntu since Warty
[12:11] <alenitchev> since breezy my package (from Debian) in Ubuntu
[12:12] <alenitchev> that is all ;)
[12:13] <Kamion> that's a lot of teams (on launchpad); how many of those do you actively keep up with?
[12:13] <alenitchev> many of them
[12:14] <alenitchev> i'm in team, which interested for me
[12:15] <Kamion> just seems like a hell of a lot to actively keep up with, that's all :)
[12:16] <Kamion> no real problems though, you seem to have been making reasonable contributions for a while
[12:16] <elmo> yeah, I agree
[12:16] <alenitchev> thanks
[12:17] <Kamion> maybe one day we'll get around to music-while-installing ;-)
[12:17] <alenitchev> that will be really nice! ;)
[12:17] <Kamion> (though I expect it'll end up being Mark's flash demo or whatever)
[12:17] <Kamion> (once the content actually exists and free software can play it without crashing and burning entertainingly)
[12:18] <alenitchev> Kamion: yes, can
[12:18] <Kamion> anyhow, +1 as far as I'm concerned; mako can catch up with you later on for final approval
[12:19] <alenitchev> Kamion: thanks
[12:19] <elmo> ok, who's next
[12:19] <elmo> nixternal, I think?
[12:19] <nixternal> im still here
[12:19] <nixternal> hehe
[12:19] <nixternal> go go go
[12:19] <nixternal> Wiki:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nixternal     |     launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/people/nixternal
[12:19] <nixternal> Been using/abusing Linux since 1994 (on & off). Started playing with Ubuntu last year, and fell in love really starting with Kubuntu Dapper Flight 3.
[12:19] <nixternal> I have been in and out of the IRC channel with many different nicks over the past year, however since April/May I have been 'nixternal' in #kubuntu offering support as much as possible.
[12:19] <nixternal> I am also in the NewUserNetwork which runs a classroom for the new user and their Ubuntu Linux operating system. Starting in August we will be running actual classes for everyone to check out. I will be adding myself as a mentor/instructor for a couple of programs.
[12:20] <nixternal> I have contributed a lot to many wiki pages, as I work on the WikiTeam. My main contributions have been in the CategoryCleanup area, cleaning up pages that aren't styled correctly, or the information is confusing. I have done over 100 pages so far, and there is still more then 300 left.
[12:20] <nixternal> DocumentationTeam work consists of helping the team review documentation, as I am not a full fledged member just yet, and I am still learning the svn system as well as docbooks. However, I am working alongside jjesse and others on creating "Switching From Windows" documentation.
[12:20] <nixternal> Marketing Team work right now is huge, as we are redesigning ourselves. I am currently working on Wiki redesign for all Marketing pages, as well as the Magazine project. I am also working on documentation/presentations for members to use for Marketing as well as for the LoCo Teams.
[12:20] <nixternal> Laptop team work is currently pretty slow as we are waiting for the first Knot really to begin testing again. I have contributed a Kubuntu Dapper test for Flight 7 and the LTS. I will continue providing support in the IRC channel as well.
[12:20] <Seveas> nixternal, ah, so the NuN/classroom is going somewhere, cool!
[12:20] <nixternal> BugSquad work will definitely keep you busy. I have done triage, minor in aspect, as I haven't created a patch just yet, but I have done the general work by responding to the poster, asking for more information if needed, and confirming if possible.
[12:20] <nixternal> Chicago Team is keeping me pretty busy as it is a very new team. We are officially holding our first meeting July 27. I will be giving a couple presentations as well as a few of our other members. Membership is continuing to grow daily, and we are planning an event downtown Chicago soon.
[12:20] <jenda> Rich Johnson's contribution and support in the Marketing Team was invaluable. Added his involvement in the NUN, WikiTeam, DocTeam etc., but mainly the Chicago LoCo Team - he is an extremely valuable asset to the Ubuntu community, and if every LoCo had one of these, Ubuntu Marketing would probably be on a totally different level by now.
[12:20] <nixternal> I am becoming more and more of a forums leach. I have supported a couple of things in both the Ubuntu and Kubuntu forums. I am trying to work my way up the proverbial "Cups of Java" ladder, of course without spamming to gain points ;)
[12:20] <gnomefreak> Seveas: so far we hope to get it moving
[12:20] <nixternal> My future plans are to continue supporting the Ubuntu community anyway possible. I am interested in future programming and packaging, as well as documentation, testing, reviewing, marketing, bug triaging, and everything else I am available to do.
[12:20] <nixternal> Thank you, and now the floor is open to you!!!
[12:20] <nixternal> yes Seveas
[12:21] <nixternal> now that my lag is at 2s ;)
[12:22] <nixternal> there is more that you will find me doing... i believe jjesse also emailed Seveas with support
[12:22] <nixternal> i am in to many channgels to count, and when i can help i step up if possible
[12:22] <bimberi> I've seen nixternal helping people in #kubuntu for quite a while (>>2 months).  Of other areas I'm involved with he's an active contributor to ubuntu-marketing, ubuntu-doc and it seeems he's a (the?) prime mover for the Chicago LoCoTeam.  Enthusiastic, Smart, a Do-er.  A real asset.
[12:23] <nixternal> i figure that if Ubuntu is free to me, then I should help as much as possible to continue it
[12:23] <Seveas> nixternal, dang
[12:23] <Seveas> I will not be able to make it to the next meeting to pass on a word of recommendation for Rich but wanted to lend what support maybe.  He has been quite active on many channels including #kubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-doc adding interesting things to the converstation.  We are working together on creating a new document (wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDocs/Edgy) Switching From Windows for edgy and have had l
[12:23] <Seveas> ots of discussion.  He has also been VERY VERY active on the Wiki doing a lot of cleanup and other thankless tasks.  A great candidate for becoming a Ubuntu Member.  I know how hard it is to become a member without support so I wanted to lend any help that I can.
[12:23] <Seveas> ^-- jjesse sent that two weeks ago
[12:23] <nixternal> hehe
[12:23] <Seveas> completely forgot it this time
[12:23] <nixternal> thx Seveas
[12:23] <nixternal> thank god he CC'd me, otherwise i wouldn't have known
[12:23] <gnomefreak> nixternal: is doing a great job with -marketing and -nun and i have seen him step up when hes around to help another user
[12:23] <nixternal> also, im getting ready to help jsgotangco on a "Server Book" project he has coming up
[12:24] <nixternal> i will be providing a review to the publisher
[12:24] <Seveas> nixternal, /me too 
[12:24] <elmo> ok
[12:24] <nixternal> im picking up packaging, as I read it to help out LaserJock with editing it
[12:25] <elmo> thanks nixternal, that all seems pretty impressive
[12:25] <nixternal> thank you
[12:25] <elmo> +1 from me
[12:25] <Kamion> (catching up, one sec)
[12:25] <nixternal> hehe
[12:25] <Seveas> who is doing lp today? Sp4rKy is not accepted yet on lp 
[12:25] <nixternal> CoC is signed, karma >10k
[12:25] <nixternal> been here a few months
[12:26] <nixternal> staying here for as long as you will keep me ;)
[12:26] <Kamion> yup, having read that, no issues - +1
[12:27] <Kamion> elmo: will you do lp or do you want me to?
[12:27] <Seveas> nixternal, almost congratz then (make will read later)
[12:27] <Seveas> sharms2, you're next
[12:27] <nixternal> make..lol mako
[12:27] <nixternal> hahah
[12:27] <elmo> Kamion: I can do it
[12:27] <Kamion> ta
[12:27] <nixternal> thanks everyone!!!
[12:27] <sharms2> I am Steven Harms.  My wiki page (create to spec with the requirements listed :): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StevenHarms, and I am applying for Ubuntu Membership.  I have been using Ubuntu since it first came out (in fact my forums user ID is < 600). 
[12:27] <sharms2> I frequently help users on #ubuntu, I have recently taken an active role in bug triage, and am looking to eventually join the MOTU. 
[12:27] <sharms2> I also act as a Ubuntu support / advocate on the campus of the university of michigan, and provide ubuntu cd's to students (I generally distribute ~30 a release)
[12:27] <sharms2> I am looking to increase my roll in bug triage, because I feel it is one of the best ways to help ubuntu by filtering bugs which are not bugs, and confirming the ones that are bugs, so people directly involved may actually fix said bugs.
[12:28] <sharms2> I thank you for taking the time to look over my wiki page and appreciate your time
[12:28] <Seveas> sharms, what's your forum profilepage?
[12:29] <sharms2> one sec
[12:29] <sharms2> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=330
[12:30] <sharms2> On a side note, for the freenode ofth discussion, I was previously known as mindwarp here until my nickname was stolen
[12:31] <sharms2> Here is my mouse howto: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=192264
[12:31] <sharms2> for those using the usb microsoft explorer mouse with forward and back buttons (firefox)
[12:33] <elmo> hmm, did you have anyone vouching for you?
[12:33] <sharms2> bddebian
[12:33] <sharms2> he has seen me help people in #ubuntu
[12:33] <sharms2> but mostly just that I bug triage right now, which doesnt have a ton of interaction over here
[12:33] <elmo> ok
[12:34] <nixternal> #ubuntu-bugs is where us bug sickos hang out!!
[12:34] <sharms2> :)
[12:36] <sharms2> Also I am hoping to take over the istanbul package eventaully
[12:36] <sharms2> been working on it but I think gstreamer needs more polish at this point since certain pipes segfault here
[12:36] <elmo> sharms: how long have you been doing bug triage and stuff?
[12:37] <sharms2> Last few months I have started triaging very actively, previously due to an already reported launchpad bug I wasn't able to find how to properly triage bugs
[12:38] <elmo> ok
[12:38] <Kamion> ok, your page is a little light compared to some others tonight, but you do seem to have been doing a fairly respectable amount of bug work
[12:39] <elmo> agreed, +1 from me
[12:39] <sharms2> thank you very much
[12:39] <elmo> ok, lfittl ?
[12:40] <Kamion> I recommend continuing to work with the #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-motu crowds
[12:40] <Kamion> who can help you develop
[12:40] <Kamion> but +1 from me for membership for the time being
[12:40] <lfittl> My name is Lukas Fittl, I'm a student from Vienna, Austria.
[12:40] <lfittl> I have started using Ubuntu with 5.04 / Hoary, and with the start of the dapper release cycle I got interested in packaging. At the moment I maintain 10 packages in universe, and for one package I am also part of upstream (libloki). For Dapper I fixed around 60 unmet dependencies in universe. If I find some free time I triage bugs in Malone, and I also review old bug reports that are still open to ensure they have the cor
[12:40] <lfittl> rect status. Recently I added a new column to the packaging candidates page, to make tracking the debian status and existing packages easier.
[12:40] <sharms2> I appreciate the advice thank you
[12:40] <lfittl> More information can be found at my wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukasFittl).
[12:40] <Kamion> excuse me, I have a crying child to attend to
[12:40] <lfittl> k
[12:43] <Kamion> right, sorry, back
[12:43] <elmo> wow, impressive amount of packaging work
[12:43] <lfittl> np
[12:44] <lfittl> elmo: thanks, I also have some other packages on my todo list ;)
[12:44] <Kamion> we seriously need to get uploads into the karma system
[12:45] <lfittl> yep
[12:45] <elmo> oh, good point, I'll file a bug on soyuz
[12:45] <LaserJock> \o/
[12:45] <lfittl> elmo: I think this is already planned somewhere in the wiki
[12:45] <elmo> lfittl: bugs help reinforce planning ;)
[12:46] <lfittl> elmo: thats right :)
[12:46] <Kamion> https://launchpad.net/products/soyuz/+spec/soyuz-karma
[12:46] <lfittl> :)
[12:46] <elmo> any MOTUs still around and want to do their \o/ dance for lfittl?
[12:47] <LaserJock> lfittl has been around -motu for some time
[12:47] <ogra> dholbach sponsored a lot for lfittl and was always happy with the package quality as he often told me
[12:47] <Kamion> cool, that spec proposes enormous karma for archive admins, rah
[12:47] <Kamion> *ahem*
[12:47] <LaserJock> I haven't sponsored any of lfittl's packages so I can't say much there
[12:47] <ogra> seems he keeps our windowmaker community happy ;)
[12:49] <elmo> +1 from me
[12:49] <lfittl> thank you :)
[12:51] <Kamion> right, +1 for sheer packaging effort
[12:52] <Kamion> I've seen your name going past for some time now
[12:52] <lfittl> also, thanks :)
[12:53] <lfittl> should I contact mako to get his opinion, or will he automatically catch up?
[12:54] <alenitchev> yes, what about mako's opinion?
[12:54] <elmo> we'll send him a a mail asking him to look at the logs for you 4 when he gets a chance
[12:54] <lfittl> k
[12:54] <elmo> if he has any concerns, we can deal with them, otherwise, you'll be approved when he's had a chance to do that
[12:55] <elmo> we'll also have to schedule the next meeting out of band.  but mark should be back for the next one
[12:55] <alenitchev> ok, thanks!
[12:55] <lfittl> thanks for your time
[12:55] <sharms> I really appreciate it guys also
[12:55] <Kamion> ok, sorry this has been such a marathon meeting
[12:56] <sharms> it shows dedication!
[12:56] <Kamion> (not been any easier for us than for you guys)
[12:56] <elmo> yeah, thanks everyone for your patience
[12:56] <alenitchev> thanks for your time!
[12:56] <elmo> meeting closed.  adjourned.  whatever.  thank you and good night.
[05:48] <nixternal> @schedule chicago
[05:48] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 12 Jul 07:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 14:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 08:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 15:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 15:00: Edubuntu
[08:20] <dholbach> ps
[08:22] <dholbach> haha :)
[09:24] <jenda> @schedule ECT
[09:24] <jenda> @schedule New York
[09:24] <jenda> @schedule Eastern
[09:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Eastern: 12 Jul 08:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 15:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 09:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 16:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 16:00: Edubuntu
[09:25] <neuralis> jenda: New_York
[09:26] <jenda> No prob ;) thx
[09:26] <jenda> @schedule Prague
[09:26] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 12 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu
[09:26] <jenda> wow :) I really thought I booked the MT meeting for 22:00 :D
[01:34] <rodarvus> @schedule Sao_Paulo
[01:34] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 12 Jul 09:00: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 16:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 10:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 17:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 17:00: Edubuntu
[01:44] <RichEd> greetz ... i'm a newbie to (ed)ubuntu meetings ... is there a specific agenda for the meeting ?
[01:45] <Seveas> @now
[01:45] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 12 2006, 11:45:03 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 14 minutes
[01:45] <Seveas> RichEd, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda
[01:47] <RichEd> ogra: re LAMS ... twas already on the swot up task list from Mark while he is on leave.
[01:48] <ogra> ah, cool
[01:49] <RichEd> Seveas: tx :) followed the link above to the meeting page ... didn't spot the agenda link
[02:00] <ogra> meep
[02:00] <jsgotangco> hi
[02:00] <ogra> seems cbx33 is missing for the minutes
[02:01] <ogra> also there are no extra points on the agenda ... thats fine 
[02:01] <ogra> so lets keep it short :)
[02:02] <ogra> from the tech side:
[02:02] <ogra> i'm lagginng a bit with the edubuntu-artwork fix for dapper ... due to two merges for ubuntu i hadnt planned buit i'm doing atm
[02:02] <ogra> +but i hope to get it done this week
[02:03] <ogra> the metapackages and seeds are in shape so far (if you have seen the changelog of my edubuntu-meta upload... its huge, we dropped a lot)
[02:03] <ogra> so we should be ready for tomorrows first milestone CD
[02:04] <jsgotangco> nice
[02:04] <JaneW> first milestone already?
[02:04] <JaneW> cool
[02:04] <Mithrandir> ogra: it might very well not happen tomorrow unless a lot of packages are fixed.
[02:04] <JaneW> what are they called this time?
[02:04] <ogra> apart from that i'm most busy with ubuntu stuff as rodarvus is ...
[02:04] <Mithrandir> JaneW: knot
[02:04] <jsgotangco> knot 1
[02:04] <rodarvus> ogra: lets just hope the rest of the distribution is fixed by tomorrow :)
[02:04] <JaneW> weird
[02:04] <rodarvus> which as Mithrandir mentioned, I'm not really confident is going to happen
[02:04] <JaneW> I liked scuttle
[02:05] <ogra> Mithrandir, well, at least our -meta side is sorted, that was on top of my TODO :)
[02:05] <rodarvus> right :)
[02:05] <ogra> rodarvus, doesnt matter i'm only looking from a edubuntu POV atm
[02:05] <Mithrandir> ogra: sure, just trying to not give people too high hopes about having something tomorrow.
[02:05] <ogra> Mithrandir, i'm happy if i dont have to test all night :)
[02:05] <jsgotangco> edubuntu-specific syncs and merges no issues?
[02:06] <ogra> no "high hopes" here :)
[02:06] <rodarvus> jsgotangco: Kalzium appears to be broken ATM, but I believe it is due to KDE specific stuff
[02:06] <jsgotangco> right
[02:06] <ogra> jsgotangco, sure, but they didnt have a deadline today :)
[02:06] <ogra> err ..
[02:06] <rodarvus> actually, I'm doing another dist-upgrade right now
[02:06] <ogra> forget about my last sentence :)
[02:06] <rodarvus> so in a minute I'll tell you if Kalzium is still broken :)
[02:06] <ogra> i was reading "promotions to main" 
[02:07] <ogra> there is nothing left to merge for edubuntu
[02:07] <ogra> rodarvus, it might need a rebuild if libs underneath changed
[02:07] <rodarvus> ogra: indeed
[02:07] <ogra> thats a typical KDE thing ...
[02:07] <rodarvus> I wish our build system could trigger library upgrades
[02:08] <ogra> the kdeedu package itself should be fine though....
[02:09] <jsgotangco> ill just skip dist-upgrading for now and wait for knot before testing
[02:09] <ogra> in other bad news, my amd64 laptop died this week ... so i currently can only do powerpc testing (which isnt very helpful)
[02:09] <jsgotangco> im going to fill in for amd64 if you want but my bandwidth isnt that great
[02:09] <ogra> it would be very appreciated to have some i386 and amd64 testers once the knot CD is up
[02:10] <rodarvus> my upgrade to 2mb dsl arrived yesterday
[02:10] <rodarvus> I can do i386 testing
[02:10] <ogra> i'll try to get a new amd64 lappie, but given that i also have to care for my move it might take some days
[02:10] <rodarvus> my new laptop (intel core duo) should arrive in one or two weeks, but thats still i386
[02:11] <ogra> so, thats all from the tech side so far ...
[02:11] <ogra> oh, right, the switch to a common buildsystem for ltsp is going on ...
[02:12] <ogra> i just merged some changes from otavio ... i'll testbuild them this week and see if it works
[02:13] <RichEd> i'm installing on a HP Pentium M 740 over the weekend ... if that helps as another test enviroment.
[02:13] <ogra> once thats done the ltsp upstream guys willl jump on the code and start helping with development
[02:13] <ogra> RichEd, what we'll test will be highly unstable ... 
[02:13] <jsgotangco> very
[02:13] <ogra> but if you have space for a spare testing partition, thats fine
[02:13] <RichEd> noted
[02:14] <ogra> its the first milestone and not really expected to work flawless :)
[02:14] <ogra> (i.e. a bug we havent discovered yet might wipe your HD )
[02:14] <ogra> so, tech update done i guess ...
[02:15] <ogra> nobody from the cookbook team ? 
[02:15] <ogra> seems they had a meeting ...
[02:15] <jsgotangco> well pips1 is here
[02:15] <pips1> hi
[02:15] <ogra> pips1, any intresting things about documentation ? 
[02:15] <pips1> nope
[02:16] <pips1> but I wanted to discuss the website and how it relates to the documentation...
[02:16] <ogra> highvoltage, anything from your side (you were looking for website admins iirc)
[02:16] <pips1> sorry for being late, btw
[02:17] <ogra> ok, seems there are either no documentation changes or its just nobody here who could tell us about  :)
[02:17] <ogra> since lisa isnt here i doubt we'll get an artwork update
[02:17] <ogra> but she announced herself on the ubuntu-art mailinglist yesterday :)
[02:18] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:18] <rodarvus> nice
[02:18] <ogra> anything else about art ? 
[02:19] <rodarvus> ogra: also note that its very unlikely that she'll ever attend early morning edubuntu meetings
[02:19] <ogra> rodarvus, you said your wife would be intreasted
[02:19] <rodarvus> its probably 5-6am where she lives now :)
[02:19] <ogra> rodarvus, lisa ? 
[02:19] <ogra> she lives in the uk
[02:19] <rodarvus> ogra: indeed, my wife is interested, I talked to her already
[02:19] <rodarvus> oh
[02:19] <rodarvus> sorry
[02:19] <flint> greetings sorry I am late in DC...
[02:19] <rodarvus> I thougth she lived in the us
[02:19] <ogra> nope
[02:19] <rodarvus> disregard my comment then
[02:19] <pips1> hi flint
[02:20] <flint> pips1, hey...
[02:20] <ogra> but she has a day job afaik
[02:20] <rodarvus> ogra: so, I talked with my wife, she is very competent, and willing to help
[02:20] <ogra> great !
[02:20] <ogra> we'll need a team going at some point :)
[02:20] <rodarvus> indeed :)
[02:21] <rodarvus> as an interaction designer, she's totally Windows, though
[02:21] <ogra> my GF would also like to help, but given the time constraints we currently have here, that wont happen for edgy i guess
[02:21] <ogra> doesnt matter ... as long as she can produce svg and png ;)
[02:21] <rodarvus> but only for reference, my wife used to work as a designer of a local linux distribution
[02:21] <rodarvus> so the icons/themes thing is really not news for her
[02:21] <flint> ogra, imho we need less designers and more coders/testers.
[02:22] <rodarvus> flint: we don't need less designers
[02:22] <ogra> Flik, the coding front is coming up to speed
[02:22] <rodarvus> we just need more technical people
[02:22] <ogra> *flint
[02:22] <rodarvus> one thing is not related to the other :)
[02:22] <ogra> yeah
[02:22] <ogra> and i'm not worried about the tech front atm ...
[02:22] <flint> rodarvus, i am.  have you seen the other LTSP offerings?
[02:22] <rodarvus> flint: ogra and I have been busy doing merges the past few weeks
[02:23] <ogra> it works quite well and there are people on their way to become more involved in hacking
[02:23] <flint> rodarvus, when can we expect a new version say a flight?
[02:23] <rodarvus> we are supposed to start working almost-full-time on Edubuntu (and LTSP) starting next week
[02:23] <ogra> flint, we have scott and jim aboard for ltsp now
[02:23] <ogra> no need to worry about that
[02:23] <flint> rodarvus, would this next release be a flight?
[02:23] <pips1> ogra: scott and jim? 
[02:24] <ogra> they will base their next release on our code
[02:24] <rodarvus> flint: next Knot ("flight" for Edgy) will be ready soon - it was mentioned in the beginning of the meeting, btw
[02:24] <ogra> pips1, ltsp upstream
[02:24] <jsgotangco> hmm just to add my wife is not even interested in this stuff im doing sorry =)
[02:24] <ogra> flint, they are called knots not flights this release
[02:24] <flint> rodarvus, thanks DC traffic etc...
[02:24] <rodarvus> supposed to happen tomorrow, but likely to slip, due to merges being still ongoing
[02:24] <ogra> flint, it will be knot 1
[02:24] <flint> rodarvus, ah a slip-knot! :^)
[02:24] <pips1> hehe
[02:25] <rodarvus> :)
[02:25] <flint> :^)
[02:25] <ogra> flint, dont worry about ltsp ... it will come up to speed :)
[02:25] <rodarvus> anyhow, back on topic :)
[02:25] <ogra> yeah
[02:25] <flint> ok
[02:25] <ogra> are we done with artwork ? 
[02:25] <rodarvus> *nods*
[02:25] <ogra> fine then ...
[02:26] <ogra> so lets come to the intresting part of this meeting
[02:26] <ogra> ladies and gentlemen ....
[02:26] <ogra> ... i'd like to introduce you all to aour new team mate ....
[02:26] <ogra> ... our new educational manger ....
[02:26] <ogra> ... husband of a former colleague ....
[02:27] <JaneW> ogra: is lisa directly involved now?
[02:27] <ogra> and surely the best guy we could get for the job !
[02:27] <ogra> meet RichEd !!!!
[02:27] <rodarvus> RichEd: welcome!
[02:27] <ogra> JaneW, she's our new baked artteam leader
[02:27] <pips1> RichEd: welcome!
[02:27] <flint> RichEd, Welcome and give my kindest regards to your wife
[02:27] <jsgotangco> welcome
[02:27] <JaneW> flint: hello
[02:27] <RichEd> Thanks all ... I'm very gladf to be here ...
[02:27] <simira> RichEd: who's your wife?
[02:27] <JaneW> flint: do it yourself dude! :P
[02:27] <ogra> yeah welcome RichEd  :)
[02:28] <jsgotangco> simira: JaneW
[02:28] <simira> ah
[02:28] <simira> btw welcome, RichEd 
[02:28] <pips1> hello JaneW :-)
[02:28] <flint> JaneW, hey kiddo!
[02:28] <simira> JaneW, how are you? Tollef told me you left.
[02:28] <ogra> simira, only physically :)
[02:28] <ogra> she's stilll here as you see 
[02:28] <simira> ogra: I see that
[02:28] <JaneW> simira: good thanks
[02:29] <RichEd> simira: she is holding my hand to day :) on her new emploers time & internet connection :)
[02:29] <ogra> simira, we wont let her out of our claws this easy ;)
[02:29] <simira> RichEd: sounds good. 
[02:29] <flint> JaneW, who you working for?
[02:29] <JaneW> flint we can chat in #edubuntu
[02:30] <flint> JaneW, fine
[02:30] <ogra> i think we're done for today, unless someone has anything thats not on the agenda yet
[02:30] <JaneW> wow, quick meeting
[02:30] <ogra> if you have anything that should be discussed, SPEAK UP NOW !
[02:30] <JaneW> ow's the cookbook?
[02:30] <JaneW> still improving?
[02:30] <flint> FYI Elkner and the DC mafia invaded San Diego 
[02:30] <pips1> ogra: website!
[02:30] <ogra> JaneW, nobody from the team was here
[02:31] <JaneW> flint: oh yes how did NECC go?
[02:31] <ogra> pips1, tell us 
[02:31] <flint> JaneW, I will send you something... on the cookbook
[02:31] <JaneW> flint: ta
[02:31] <flint> elkner went to tijuana....  
[02:31] <JaneW> flint: er... recreationally...?
[02:31] <flint> I stayed here.  Big Crowd much interest...
[02:32] <pips1> I think it would be very good if we could get more "life" into the website, i.e. more content, but also more interactions...
[02:32] <ogra> pips1, highvoltage asked for more webmasters
[02:32] <JaneW> pips1, yes more updates and dynamic stuff too
[02:32] <ogra> (last week)
[02:32] <JaneW> yes highvoltage will need help, he has a new venture to focus on and won't be able to commit much time here afaik
[02:32] <pips1> I have been wondering what would be the best way to go about that... I think it would be great if we could get more educators discussing edu apps etc
[02:32] <ogra> yep
[02:33] <ogra> he has to be our edubuntu reseller in the future ;)
[02:33] <JaneW> pips1, indeed
[02:33] <ogra> pips1, ++
[02:33] <flint> pips1, right now I am busy making trouble in DC.  After that I teach LTSP at University of New Hampshire (NELS) then I will cause more trouble here...
[02:33] <JaneW> I think part of the problem so far was us guessing what what needed rather than getting actual requests
[02:33] <simira> JaneW: you will still keep up with your engagement in Edubuntu on voluntary basis?
[02:33] <pips1> in general, non technical people like forums and as far as i could see, there is still no edubuntu-specific forum on ubuntuforums?
[02:33] <ogra> pips1, i think such stuff will be part of RichEd's job (correcrt me if i'm wrong)
[02:34] <flint> JaneW, look at Fedora K12 LTSP and do what they are doing.
[02:34] <flint> except do it better...
[02:34] <ogra> pips1, there is one in the german forums ... i thought ubuntuforumms has one as well
[02:34] <flint> :^)
[02:34] <jsgotangco> it does look a bit dull at the moment
[02:34] <jsgotangco> and nothing moves
[02:34] <pips1> the problem with forums is that you want moderators...
[02:35] <JaneW> btw RichEd is disconnect, prolly by ADSL reset
[02:35] <pips1> we need some kind of quality assurance for the website, I don't think we can allow anonymous postings, can we...?
[02:35] <JaneW> simira, I am going to try to be around a bit, but can't commit to much atm
[02:35] <ogra> JaneW, then he can correct me later :)
[02:35] <flint> Ah yes the tradition of Commonwealth communications...
[02:35] <JaneW> ogra, I think so
[02:35] <ogra> pips1, we shouldnt  ... 
[02:35] <ogra> not for the website
[02:35] <jsgotangco> pips1: of course
[02:35] <pips1> ogra: agreed
[02:35] <pips1> huh?
[02:36] <pips1> so JaneW and jsgotangco think we *should* allow anonymous postings?
[02:36] <JaneW> no
[02:36] <jsgotangco> no way
[02:36] <ogra> we have a wiki and we *should* get a forum at some point ...
[02:36] <pips1> ah, right
[02:36] <flint> pips1, na but make registration painless.
[02:36] <JaneW> I was answering ogra saying RichEd should look into it
[02:36] <ogra> the forum might have anonymous access allowed 
[02:36] <rodarvus> we should get a "folder" on ubuntuforums, actually
[02:36] <pips1> right
[02:36] <ogra> yep
[02:37] <flint> ogra, painless registration rather than anonymous is my vote.
[02:37] <ogra> rodarvus, but someone has to take responsibility 
[02:37] <ogra> we cant burden it on the existing forum people
[02:38] <rodarvus> agreed
[02:38] <rodarvus> but any forums need admins
[02:38] <rodarvus> what I mean is that, if/when we are supposed to have a forum
[02:38] <pips1> well, drupal , our website cms, is just perfect for building *community* sites.... enabling community communication... the technical stuff is not a problem, but we should agree on who can do forum moderation and who can proof read new content, so we don't publish incorrect technical information, etc
[02:38] <rodarvus> it should be ubuntuforums
[02:39] <rodarvus> there is no reason (nor rationale) to create our own forums
[02:39] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:39] <jsgotangco> i will talk to one of the forum people
[02:39] <flint> rodarvus, drupal does the job, what I worry about is subject linkage if you are not part of ubuntuforums
[02:40] <jsgotangco> (they guy who attended in Paris)
[02:40] <rodarvus> jsgotangco: oh, I met him
[02:40] <jsgotangco> yeah
[02:40] <JaneW> jsgotangco, that was Roald Hopman
[02:40] <ogra> grr, i hate my wireless
[02:40] <jsgotangco> so yeah I will send him a PM
[02:40] <jsgotangco> in the forums
[02:41] <ogra> oh, right, we talked the last evening in the smokers corner :)
[02:41] <pips1> rodarvus: well, in general, I agree that we should build something that exists already/elsewhere, but there is a big divide between the ubuntuforums communities and the rest of the community (more technical people, who are prefer and are used to use bugtrackers, irc, mailing listes, etc)
[02:41] <rodarvus> flint: the thing is, there is no reason to create another forum, no matter which tool is used for this forum - we should stick to what we already have (and which works quite well)
[02:41] <rodarvus> pips1: people are trying to address this
[02:41] <jsgotangco> ill look into this
[02:41] <ogra> rodarvus, well, we always had probs with the forums ... that wont go away
[02:41] <rodarvus> as mentioned here, Roald Hopman (one of the ubuntuforum admins) was at UDS Paris
[02:42] <jsgotangco> considering were pretty much low traffic for now
[02:42] <pips1> *shouldn't build something
[02:42] <jsgotangco> it shouldn't be that much of an issue IMO
[02:42] <rodarvus> and talked for a long while with sabdfl, jdub and mako
[02:42] <ogra> i'd love to see it solved but unless that happens i wont belive its doable
[02:42] <rodarvus> so, all interested parts (Mark included) are aware, and hopefully working on that
[02:42] <jsgotangco> what is not doable? an edubuntu forum?
[02:42] <flint> rodarvus, we agree on this point for differing reasons... but we agree.
[02:42] <RichEd_> hi ... got disconnected ... back ...
[02:43] <JaneW> hi RichEd_ welcome to ADSL reset hell
[02:43] <ogra> having our own forum would gain us more control ... and given that our userbase is a lot smaller it would probably be easier to manage
[02:43] <pips1> since there isn't any edubuntu-specific forum at ubuntuforums, why don't we enable a forum on our own site and see how that goes? or are you guys strictly against that idea?
[02:43] <jsgotangco> well drupal has a forum plugin we can use if you want to
[02:43] <ogra> jsgotangco, there were various attempts to get the forums in shape over the last two years
[02:44] <ogra> i havent seen any fruitful ones that solved the probs yet
[02:44] <JaneW> yes thee are current forum governance issues afaik
[02:44] <ogra> i'd love to be proven wrong though
[02:44] <RichEd_> JaneW: please can you copy paste & email me the coversantion between [<JaneW> simira: good thanks]  and my return message ... tx
[02:44] <pips1> governance issues?! like what?
[02:44] <rodarvus> to be sincere, I'm mostly against the idea of having a separate forum
[02:44] <jsgotangco> they like to govern on their own
[02:44] <JaneW> also edubuntu forums will likely want to attract educators, which may not happen in the current ubuntu forums structure
[02:45] <rodarvus> since there is interest on both parties to have a better integration with the existing forum with Ubuntu (and Ubuntu Community Council) itself
[02:45] <ogra> rodarvus, well, having it integrated in ubuntuforums will bring us their problems ...
[02:45] <jsgotangco> okay
[02:45] <jsgotangco> we can then just activate the drupal forum then
[02:45] <ogra> having it separated will bring us maintenance work ...
[02:45] <jsgotangco> shouldn't be that complicated
[02:45] <RichEd_> i thnk that an education specific forum is important if we want to attract users - teachers are a different breed to regular users
[02:45] <flint> Thanks all until next time!
[02:45] <ogra> RichEd_, thats out of question
[02:46] <bimberi> Jane Silber posted to ubuntu-marketing about the positives of the teams using the same resources.  Admittedly that was wiki focussed, but still applies
[02:46] <flint> sksk
[02:46] <RichEd_> okay ... 
[02:47] <pips1> rodarvus: separate in which way? we can always do hyperlinks, it is just a question of the *integration* with the rest of the content... i.e. in drupal, every content get a "unique id", which means that you can re-organise your navigation very easily... you can increase the findability of stuff...
[02:47] <ogra> RichEd_, the problem is that we'd inherit all govenance problems they have etc ... and if its on ubuntuforums which has a huge userbase you'll have to deal witn a lot of spam and trivias you wont see in a separate forum
[02:47] <bimberi> (for reference - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2006-July/000552.html )
[02:47] <ogra> we'd have more control in a self governed one ...
[02:48] <highvoltage> sorry for being late again!
[02:48] <ogra> iirc one of the reasons why the web guys cried for drupal was the integration of our own forum in the past
[02:48] <rodarvus> highvoltage: tsc, tsc
[02:48] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: yuppy executive startup bigwig!
[02:48] <highvoltage> *g*
[02:48] <rodarvus> highvoltage: I'll discount the late time on your monthly payment :D
[02:49] <rodarvus> pips1: but what do you mean with "hyperlinks"
[02:49] <rodarvus> for me, separate means not in the same database
 RichEd_, thats out of question <- what do you mean?
[02:50] <rodarvus> many Edubuntu questions are not edubuntu specific
[02:50] <highvoltage> rodarvus: ok :)
[02:50] <ogra> JaneW, <RichEd_> i thnk that an education specific forum is important if we want to attract users - teachers are a different breed to regular users
[02:50] <JaneW> ogra: yes we chose to migrate to drupal with the knowledge that there is forum functionality which we could use
[02:50] <rodarvus> Edubuntu users will have to navigate (and register) somewhere else to ask why their intsallation failed
[02:50] <bimberi> ogra: the ubuntuforums people might be able to give you all the control you want
[02:50] <pips1> as i said, technically, there aren't any real problems, it is more an issue of deciding how we go forward as a community ... i.e. if we want to improve the website, we want the current edubuntu community members on board, contributing content to the website, taking on moderation roles, proof reading content and approve content, etc.
[02:50] <JaneW> ogra: that's what I thought you meant, but your response sounded like a 'no, that's out of the question' :P
[02:51] <ogra> rodarvus, well, our audience willl be totally different 
[02:51] <JaneW> rodarvus, your arguments are good
[02:51] <rodarvus> ogra: not "totally" different
[02:51] <ogra> but i agree that this is a valid point :)
[02:51] <JaneW> BUT the current set-up can be pretty newbie-harsh
[02:51] <highvoltage> yep
[02:52] <rodarvus> JaneW: in the same way it is newbie-harsh to non-edubuntu customers
[02:52] <ogra> rodarvus, "how do i get content into this or that edu app" will be more intresting for them than how do i set up a lvm install
[02:52] <pips1> ogra: yes, i think so too
[02:52] <ogra> they are teacher *using* the system 
[02:52] <ogra> we're not talking about general support
[02:53] <RichEd> could there be a Edubuntu user front end, with education specific usability & adoption topics seperate, but pointing tech support install issues etc. back to ubuntu forums / help resources
[02:53] <ogra> its rather about the use in schools 
[02:53] <ogra> thats a good compromise
[02:53] <rodarvus> RichEd: that could be a good option
[02:54] <rodarvus> a really good one, actually
[02:54] <pips1> so what if we start a educational topic-related forum on drupal and ask ubuntuforums to have a edubuntu-technical forum (mainly LTSP) over at ubuntuforums? does that make sense? 
[02:54] <ogra> the big value in having a drupal forum on our (separated) webserver would be that we could use the forum DB for we content
[02:54] <jsgotangco> you will have 2 database of users 
[02:54] <ogra> *web
[02:54] <rodarvus> jsgotangco: no, the proposal would be to have the same database
[02:54] <rodarvus> with different frontends
[02:54] <jsgotangco> how will you do that?
[02:54] <ogra> yes we'd need to use LP accounts
[02:55] <ogra> as everywhere in ubuntu
[02:55] <jsgotangco> LP is a good compromise but doesn't work in ubuntuforums
[02:55] <pips1> yes, we definitely need LP accounts for our drupal site...
[02:55] <ogra> it has an API 
[02:55] <rodarvus> ogra: I believe you are also underestimating the noise the ubuntuforums community can make :)
[02:55] <ogra> so for free software it should be possible to write something to use LP
[02:55] <JaneW> yes that could work, but there's still the sep login issue...
[02:55] <rodarvus> they could get really angry if we just create another completely new forum
[02:55] <RichEd> how about this view ... ALL edubuntu users are also ubuntu users, but not all ubuntu users are edubuntu users ?
[02:56] <ogra> rodarvus, totally no, thats why i'm voting for a separate forum ;)
[02:56] <jsgotangco> correct
[02:56] <RichEd> i.e. edubuntu and education people are a subset ?
[02:56] <jsgotangco> yes
[02:56] <ogra> yes
[02:56] <rodarvus> RichEd: correct
[02:56] <ogra> s/no/not/
[02:56] <pips1> rodarvus: it would be a "specialised" forum for educators. the technical stuff could stay together with the other technical stuff in ubuntuforums...
[02:56] <rodarvus> anyhow, I propose we "write down" on Wiki the pros and cons of the two options
[02:57] <ogra> rodarvus, i'm also fine taking the blame for such a decision ...
[02:57] <RichEd> so they could have a surface layer of education specific help, but go back to the base for "desktop" help ...
[02:57] <rodarvus> pips1: if this is well kept in mind, then it could work
[02:57] <pips1> RichEd: correct
[02:57] <pips1> rodarvus, I have already written a fair amount on this topic in the wiki
[02:57] <jsgotangco> well for what its worth, looking for info in the forums is like wading through the amazon
[02:58] <rodarvus> I'd be ok, but this needs to be *clearly stated* in the educational forum :)
[02:58] <jsgotangco> so i guess a separate edu-specific forum would be useful
[02:58] <ogra> rodarvus, i'm rather worried about the noise the ubuntuforums make inside a edu folder there :)
[02:58] <ogra> (on their own servers)
[02:59] <pips1> rodarvus RichEd have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhilippSchroeder
[02:59] <ogra> if i go to the forums i'm scared about the hackish  workarounds etc after 10 mins of reading ... i wouldnt want to scare our teachers away through getting bad advise that trashes their system
[02:59] <rodarvus> ok, I don't have any other objections, then - was just trying to make sure we are not diverging too much from Ubuntu itself :)
[03:00] <jsgotangco> right
[03:00] <RichEd> pips1: tx will do ... JaneW says you are very helpful :)
[03:00] <pips1> in particular https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan and https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
[03:00] <rodarvus> pips1: thanks for the links, I'll read through them asap
[03:01] <ogra> btw, its desired that we make more use of the blueprint system in LP in the future for future releases ...
[03:01] <ogra> i.e. such things should have a spec for edgy+1 stuff 
[03:01] <rodarvus> *nods* completely agreed
[03:01] <jsgotangco> wow 1 hour meeting
[03:01] <ogra> please point users with ideas to launchpad for that :)
[03:02] <ogra> yeah, time is over 
[03:02] <pips1> ogra: I agree compeletely, we definitely need to avoid those *hackish* workaround solutions on our website... that's why I think we need people to proof read content (i.e. *you* for technical things) before it gets published on the official edubuntu website!
[03:02] <ogra> anything majorly important from anyone ? 
[03:02] <ogra> pips1, if i had the time i'd do it ...
[03:02] <jsgotangco> drupal will be good for that
[03:03] <ogra> but mdz already complained in my performance review that i do too much non packaging/devel related stuff that distracts me ... i have to cut that down in the future :)
[03:03] <pips1> so did we come to a general consensus that we will now go with an education-specific forum on our drupal website, then?
[03:03] <JaneW> ogra, do you still report into him?
[03:03] <pips1> hmm
[03:03] <JaneW> pips1, +1
[03:03] <ogra> JaneW, yes
[03:04] <JaneW> ogra: oic
[03:04] <RichEd> pips1 : would you like to work through pro's & cons with me ... and then we can put forward a suggestion for a vote ?
[03:04] <ogra> JaneW, i'm still working in the distroteam as well as in the edubuntu team
[03:04] <rodarvus> JaneW: also I do
[03:04] <rodarvus> I believe ogra and I will report to two different persons now :)
[03:04] <pips1> RichEd: yes, very much so
[03:04] <ogra> ok, lets finish the meeting here and move over to our own room :)
[03:04] <JaneW> yes maybe finalise decision next week, after props and cons and present findings and recommendations next meeting
[03:05] <ogra> going once 
[03:05] <rodarvus> JaneW: agreed
[03:05] <ogra> going twice 
[03:05] <JaneW> ogra: what happend last week with EC?
[03:05] <JaneW> gone
[03:05] <ogra> meeting adjourned ... 
[03:05] <ogra> thanks everyone ;)
[03:05] <JaneW> thanks for having me :)
[03:05] <pips1> ta everyone!
[03:05] <highvoltage> sorry for missing the meeting from my side :(
[03:06] <jsgotangco> cheers cheers
[03:06] <RichEd> thanks all ...
[03:06] <jsgotangco> highvoltage: its ok we all know you had an executive meeting of sorts *g*
[03:06] <ogra> jsgotangco, no, he was buyin a tie :P
[03:07] <highvoltage> jsgotangco: ah, ok. good then :)
[03:07] <JaneW> haha
[03:07] <jsgotangco> wahahahaa
[03:07] <highvoltage> ogra: i'll wear my tie next time ;)
[03:07] <highvoltage> JaneW: don't laugh, I actually bought a tie two months ago
[03:07] <ogra> as a belt ? 
[03:08] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[03:08] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 13 Jul 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 22:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 16:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 23:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 23:00: Edubuntu
[04:37] <GNAM> @shjcedule rome
[04:37] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[04:37] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 13 Jul 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 21:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 15:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 22:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 22:00: Edubuntu | 20 Jul 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[05:32] <zul> @schedule Montreal
[05:32] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 13 Jul 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jul 15:00: Marketing Team | 17 Jul 09:00: Kubuntu | 18 Jul 16:00: Technical Board | 19 Jul 16:00: Edubuntu | 20 Jul 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[10:03] <jenda> robitaille: could i ask you to rebook the Marketing Team meeting to 20:00 UTC tomorrow? That was my mistake.
[10:03] <jenda> please? ;)
[10:04] <robitaille> @topic
[10:04] <robitaille> jenda,  done
[10:05] <jenda> thanks
[10:31] <robitaille> jenda,  yes?
[10:31] <jenda> I'm so, so incredibly sorry, but it seems it wasn't the fridge that was wrong, but the MT wiki.
[10:32] <robitaille> so you want 19:00 utc?  :)
[10:32] <jenda> Yes, please :)
[10:32] <robitaille> @topic
[10:32] <robitaille> it's back :)
[10:38] <Seveas> robitaille, I found the bug that caused ubotu not to update
[10:38] <Seveas> (and of course fixed it)
[10:39] <robitaille> Seveas,  that's great news.
[10:50] <FunnyLookinHat> What was the decision on moving ubuntu off freenode after yesterday's CC?  I had to leave early.  : (
[10:50] <FunnyLookinHat> hope it's staying  : )
[10:51] <uniq> no decision was made.
[10:53] <FunnyLookinHat> Ah ok.
[10:54] <uniq> i personally think oftc looks very ubuntuish and democratic and nice. though.. 
[10:54] <uniq> well.. have to go to bed.. nite.
[10:55] <jenda> FunnyLookinHat: the decision was deferred to the next meeting, expecting the sabdfl's say and more reasoning from the pro-move side.
[10:55] <jenda> (err... a wiki describing the reasons, not more reasoning)
[10:55] <FunnyLookinHat> Ahhh ok.  Yea it seemed that the discussion seemed to keep going in circle around the point of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
[10:56] <jenda> yep