/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/07/15/#ubuntu-doc.txt

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LaserJockevening everybody05:07
CypherBIOSLaserJock: evening :)05:09
mpt_Afternoon05:10
Madpilotevening05:10
LaserJockare we going to have a meeting anytime soon?05:11
LaserJockI'm kinda feel like we're sort of lacking direction a bit for edgy05:12
LaserJockmaybe it's because I've been busy with other work05:12
theCorehi LaserJock05:13
LaserJockhi theCore!05:13
LaserJockhow's it going?05:13
theCorepretty good, you?05:13
LaserJocksame05:14
theCoreLaserJock: I didn't seen any commits lately for the Packaging Guide, did you stop working on it?05:17
LaserJocktheCore: I never really started yet for Edgy05:44
theCoreI wonder what I could do...05:50
LaserJockwrite05:52
LaserJock:-)05:52
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theCore:)05:53
LaserJocktheCore: got a few minutes? we could go over the outline05:54
theCoreLaserJock: of course05:55
LaserJocktheCore: ok, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide05:56
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LaserJocktheCore: what do you think of it at the momement?05:58
theCoreLaserJock: well, it pretty much what we have now05:58
=== nixternal loves the guid
nixternale05:58
nixternalim using it right now for some dh_make help05:59
LaserJocktheCore: the structure is a fair amount different05:59
LaserJocknixternal: good, send feedback :-)06:00
nixternaloh you know i will06:00
nixternalthat or a diff if needed06:00
LaserJocktheCore: I split it up into many more chapters06:00
theCoreLaserJock: yeah, I see that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide?action=diff&rev1=23&rev2=2206:01
nixternalhmm..im starting to wonder where jjesse went..we need to get workin' on the SFW docs06:01
LaserJockdidn't he get a new job?06:01
theCoreLaserJock: it's neater that way06:02
crimsunI think it's perhaps more streamlined to have "common mistakes" integrated into each section06:02
LaserJockah, good idea06:03
LaserJockI kinda want to cover things when the come up06:03
LaserJockdo you think there is too much introductory material before you start actually working on a package? that was one complaint I got06:05
LaserJockI wanted to add a little "rebuild from source package" example early on since that is a common, and easy (usually) thing to do06:05
theCorecrimsun: added06:06
crimsunLaserJock: well, no, I didn't think there was too much introductory material.06:06
theCoreLaserJock: there's never enough introductory material06:06
theCore;)06:07
crimsunLaserJock: on the other hand, something that would help immensely is a flowchart akin to what you find in O'Reilly texts where you say "if you're an experienced user but novice Debian packager, you'll find chapters X, Y, Z interesting immediately and want to skip chapters A, B, and C. If you're an inexperienced user, you'll want to dive right into chapter A. [..] "06:08
LaserJockyeah06:08
LaserJockthat's kinda what I'm looking for06:08
LaserJockthere's really a fairly large range of experience I'd like to target here06:09
crimsunyou really can cover it all06:09
theCoremaybe we should explain why peoples should do packages06:09
crimsunjust make sure that first section really lays things (flow) out clearly06:09
crimsuntheCore: sure, I see that as something viable in the first "novice" chapter06:10
LaserJockI think if we have : 1)totally new 2) more refresher/reference type 3) info for Debian people who just need to know about Ubuntu specifics06:10
crimsunan experienced user, well, already knows why packages are important06:10
LaserJockthe other thing to keep in my is hopefully we will have an Ubuntu Developer's Reference in edgy06:11
LaserJocks/my/mind/06:12
LaserJockwhich I hope to sort of sell them as pair06:12
crimsunmore useful to the semi-experienced users, probably06:13
LaserJockright06:13
LaserJockso the PG guides you through the knowledge you need to create and deal with packages06:13
LaserJockand the UDR provides the more specifc reference that Ubuntu developers need to get their job done06:14
LaserJockbut hopefully together they give a pretty decent documentation of what you need to become an Ubuntu developer06:14
LaserJocktheCore: are you presently editing the wiki page?06:15
crimsunprobably s/become an Ubuntu developer/develop apps using Ubuntu/g06:15
theCoreLaserJock: yes06:15
LaserJocktheCore: tell me when your done06:16
crimsunsomething that will help is separating detailed explanations from the quick-n'-dirty06:16
LaserJockyeah06:16
crimsun(i.e., the ongoing ubuntuguide vs. wiki debate)06:17
LaserJockI've wanted to do that but I haven't really figure out a good way of doing it06:17
crimsunso in the chapters, detailed explanations are used, but there are appendices where no explanation is given for people who just want the rundown06:17
LaserJockyeah, but that was my big complaint with the New Maintainer's Guide06:18
theCoreLaserJock: done06:18
LaserJockall the helpful stuff was at the end06:18
crimsunthe bulk of the material is there already in the PG; this is mainly a workflow issue06:18
theCoreshould we cover checkinstall?06:18
LaserJockI'd rather cover rebuilding source than checkinstall06:18
crimsunmy gut says "no"06:18
crimsunnormally checkinstall is used for newer backports (backports) or non-existing ones, which is precisely the larger portion of the target audience06:19
LaserJockI think we can make simple packaging easy enough that checkinstall wouldn't be worth the pain06:19
theCoreok06:20
LaserJockI've thought about it though06:20
crimsunwe should definitely cover how to backport using pbuilder and link to how to request an official backport06:20
LaserJockbut I'd just rather not go down that road06:20
LaserJockyeah, good point06:20
crimsunbackporting will probably need to be one of the later chapters, since pbuilder will need to have been introduced and explained06:21
theCoreand, would it better to use dummy examples for the first examples, thus reducing the complexity of the control file, and then move on with some real world examples?06:22
LaserJockyeah, I'm wondering about that06:24
LaserJockhello turned out to be more complicated than I wanted06:24
LaserJockwe could build a working hello package without some of the complexity06:25
LaserJockI didn't have time to do it for dapper06:25
crimsunhow 'bout using the gtk hello world example?06:25
LaserJockhow's that different?06:25
crimsunthat way people get a graphical doodah they can click06:25
LaserJockah06:25
crimsunit's simple, and people can see it displayed06:26
crimsunand it's also documented on gtk.org :)06:26
LaserJockhaving a GUI would be cool06:26
LaserJockI mean we have hello , but the packaging is a bit hard to go through all in one shot06:26
theCorewouldn't raise the complexity of the package even higher?06:26
crimsunit would, yes, but it's something that would be explained06:27
crimsunand besides, we're talking about packaging for people who like guis06:27
crimsunthe gtk hello world example is already in the gtk doc06:27
crimsunall we have to do is tell them how to package it06:28
theCorehmm... could be interesting06:28
crimsunthat would also give us a chance to tell them about .desktop files, so they can execute the simple gtk app06:28
nixternalhrm..crimsun my man...  if i want to update a package, say lyx for instance..i grab the new .tar.gz from their site, and apt-get source lyx from us...i use pbuilder, is it correct to copy over the /debian/* files and edit them from the ubuntu source?06:28
LaserJockit would be cool06:28
crimsunnixternal: uupdate06:28
crimsunnixternal: don't blow away the previous debian/ infrastructure unless you know you need to06:29
nixternaluupdate?06:29
crimsunI'm pretty sure this is in the PG ...?06:29
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nixternalwell...the pbuilder stuff is all about "packaging from scratch"..that is where i kind of got confused for a second06:30
crimsunah, it's not really covered in the current PG06:30
crimsunit's basically three steps06:31
LaserJockno06:31
crimsun1) apt-get source foo   [for the current package] 06:31
nixternaland if you read about debhelper, it is almost like you should use it for what i want to do..but debhelper debianizes files 06:31
crimsun2) download the newer upstream tarball06:31
crimsun3) cd foo-currentversion && uupdate ../foo-newerversion.tar.gz06:32
crimsunthen follow the instructions that are displayed06:32
nixternalcool..thank you sir06:32
crimsunyeah, we'll definitely add that06:32
nixternali knew something wasn't 100% there...i have read this thing a few times now ;)06:33
nixternalcrimsun: should i at least create the /debian directory in the newer upstream dir?06:34
nixternalor will uupdate do that for me06:34
crimsunno06:34
crimsunuupdate will do that06:34
nixternalcool06:34
nixternalthanks06:34
LaserJockok guys, reload the wiki page06:36
LaserJockany missing vital topics?06:37
theCorelook good to me06:38
LaserJockI'm thinking of adding a section in Bugs about sending patches upstream06:40
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Burgundavianixternal: some work for you: move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BridgingNetworkInterfaces06:42
Burgundaviahey jsgotangco06:42
crimsunLaserJock: looks good06:42
nixternalhiya jsgotangco06:42
jsgotangcohey06:42
nixternalno problem Burgundavia06:42
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Burgundavianixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessRouterHowto06:42
LaserJockhi Burgundavia and jsgotangco 06:42
LaserJockcrimsun: ok cool, I'm going to clean it up rearrange the .xml to reflect the new outline and beg and plead on -motu and -devel for help :-)06:43
LaserJockmaybe I can get Moser to start a big thread about the security vunerabilities in the Packaging Guide06:44
LaserJockoh, the other thing I want -motu and -devel advice on is the pbuilder and chroot sections06:47
LaserJockI took them off the wiki, but then infinity (I think it was him) had issues with parts of the chroot guide06:47
LaserJockand perhaps pbuilder could get revamped to be a bit clearer as well06:48
=== LaserJock think the room cleared when he said Hi
jsgotangcoLaserJock: i guess you should go out more often06:52
nixternalLaserJock: i +1 crimsun on doing that ;)06:52
nixternalcrimsun is the packaging god around town06:52
nixternalfor instance..i just did his uupdate thing he showed and it worked like a charm..i just don't know where to pick up now ;)06:53
LaserJockjsgotangco: ok, with that I'll say goodnight while I have so time left this evening06:55
LaserJocks/so/some/06:55
jsgotangcolol06:55
LaserJockcya guys06:55
nixternalg'nite LaserJock06:55
nixternalam i really seeing a wireless router howto on the ubuntu wiki?06:55
nixternalshould i drop the "Howto" from the title on h.u.c/c/?06:56
crimsunyou totally need more howtos06:56
crimsunj/k06:56
nixternali was waiting for that one ;)06:57
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nixternalit is sad when you can detect sarcasm on irc06:57
Burgundaviacan I write the HowToHowToHowto?06:58
nixternalhow about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter06:58
nixternal+1 burg06:58
nixternalhow about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter & i link it on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter07:00
nixternali think that would be the best thing to do here07:01
Burgundaviawe all trust your judgment, nixternal07:01
Burgundavia(actaully, we are too lazy to do it ourselves)07:01
nixternalwhew...cuz i already did it ;)07:01
nixternaldone07:08
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nixternalis it possible to get the                "Redirected from page "XXXX"     -    Clear message        lines/text whatever, reduced in size?  10:22
nixternalit might just be me, but i find it annoying at times as it pushes down a few lines10:22
mdkeeverything is possible10:24
nixternalof course, as long as mdke is around ;)10:25
nixternalhow are you doing this fine day, evening, morning ;)10:25
mdkefine thanks, you?10:26
nixternalkind of tired..but working hard at staying awake10:26
nixternalworking with hobbsee a little bit tonight on some packaging10:26
mdkecool10:27
mdkewe certainly need a meeting soon10:28
=== nixternal agrees
nixternalim ready for some doc work big time10:28
mdkei'll email about it10:28
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nixternali emailed jjesse and phil bull??  on the switching from windows docs..hopefully we can start that soon...plus edgy docs10:28
nixternalg'nite all10:47
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nixternalhiya jjesse09:37
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jjessehiya nixternal09:42
nixternalyou been pretty busy lately i take it?09:42
jjessebeen on the road for work a lot09:42
nixternalalso got a guy on the Chicago team from berrien springs..he is just hanging out really...but interested in a Michigan team09:43
jjessecool, i know the detroit team is very very active 09:43
nixternalhmm..didn't think about that..even though he is closer to chicago, maybe he should also look into detroit09:44
nixternali will email him the info09:44
nixternalactually..berrien springs is in the middle09:44
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jjessemissed the log, but did you become a member at the meeting?09:51
nixternalwaiting on mako09:54
nixternalit is up to him to confirm/deny09:54
jjesseoh09:54
nixternalim confident i will make it though..as he approved the Chicago Team09:54
nixternaland everyone else approved me09:54
jjessecool09:54
=== jenda doesn't doubt it, really.
crimsunjenda: do you still need -marketing stuff mirrored?09:57
jendahey there crimsun :)09:58
jendaNothing ATM, really09:58
crimsunok, I was going to remove what's currently there unless you really needed it09:58
jendabut there might be some in the future - I have about three people who I keep bugging therewith, and there's usually at least one online :)09:58
jendaOK, lemme check09:58
jendacould you link me?09:59
jendaah, it was the layout design09:59
mdke_meh09:59
mdke_jenda: you know full well now that hosting is available if necessary09:59
jendacrimsun: nah, it's OK, you can take it down.09:59
crimsunjenda: ok09:59
crimsunmdke_: this was a stop-gap emergency thing iirc10:00
mdke_crimsun: yeah I remember10:00
jendamdke_: I know bzr is, and i'm using it... and I know that I can host stuff on the wiki, which I do with some things. 10:00
jendamdke_: Did you have anything else in mind?10:01
mdke_jenda: you were told that if the marketing team needs a server, it can use the docteam one.10:02
jendaOK, mdke_, how would that work then? I'm sorry, but it seems I misuderstood something.10:02
jendacrimsun: OK, thanks for that. it's been on the wiki for a while, I forgot to tell you, sorry.10:04
mdke_jenda: if the marketing team does something that isn't suitable for mirroring on the wiki (which afaics it hasn't yet), it can setup a webserver (or other software) on the docteam server.10:04
crimsunjenda: np.10:04
jendamdke_: I have 5 megabytes of files in the bzr repo, and it would be a lot of work to put it all on the wiki, and bzr isn't easily accessible for outsiders.10:05
jendaIt's html pages, svgs, xcfs, pngs and jpegs mostly, I think.10:05
mdke_jenda: so what is it that you'd like to do with that?10:06
jendaI'd like it to be accessible through a browser on the net, as a list of files and directories. No other special treatment really. If the URL could be marketing.ubuntu.com, it'd be great, but it's not necessary.10:07
mdke_ok, that's fine, we can do that10:08
jendaFrom the other side, I'd like either all active members of the marketig team to have write access (preferably through nautilus (ie. ssh, ftp is good)), or better, selected active people to have access. I'm a little worried to give access to over 40 people just like that.10:09
jendaMight be wrong there, of course, because OTOH, there is no real damage to be done.10:09
mdke_jenda: I think what you should do is use the version control system to control access10:09
jendaHmm10:09
jendaATM, the entire team has write access to bzr10:09
jendaIn fact, it would be best if the two were synced, really...10:10
jendabut it's rather difficult to do both ways.10:10
mdke_just one way...10:10
mdke_so what you do is just work in bzr, then mirror it on the server so that anyone can see it10:10
jendaYes that's good enough10:12
jendaIn fact, it's perfect10:13
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LaserJockhi Burgundavia 11:35
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Burgundaviahey LaserJock11:40
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Riddellwhat's happened to the newsletter?11:46
LaserJockhmm, mgalvin isn't on11:47
LaserJock#6 is it supposed to be?11:47
crimsunhe did mention he wouldn't have much time or something11:47
Riddellhe missed last week and seems to be about to miss this week11:47
Riddellthere's material on there, wouldn't be hard for someone to pick it up11:47
Riddelljust reformatting and proofreading11:47
LaserJockbah, we need than one person to be able to do these things so if a person has to duck out for a few weeks the ship doesn't go down ;-)11:48
Riddellso... volunteers?11:52
LaserJockmdke_: ping?11:56
LaserJockRiddell: honestly, the best idea is to email ubuntu-doc11:57
Riddelloh sodit, I'll just do it12:01
nixternalare you following m e12:08
nixternalRiddell: there was another person who stepped up, however i will look at my log to see who it was...and of course i said i would help get it completed12:09

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