[05:07] <LaserJock> evening everybody
[05:09] <CypherBIOS> LaserJock: evening :)
[05:10] <mpt_> Afternoon
[05:10] <Madpilot> evening
[05:11] <LaserJock> are we going to have a meeting anytime soon?
[05:12] <LaserJock> I'm kinda feel like we're sort of lacking direction a bit for edgy
[05:12] <LaserJock> maybe it's because I've been busy with other work
[05:13] <theCore> hi LaserJock
[05:13] <LaserJock> hi theCore!
[05:13] <LaserJock> how's it going?
[05:13] <theCore> pretty good, you?
[05:14] <LaserJock> same
[05:17] <theCore> LaserJock: I didn't seen any commits lately for the Packaging Guide, did you stop working on it?
[05:44] <LaserJock> theCore: I never really started yet for Edgy
[05:50] <theCore> I wonder what I could do...
[05:52] <LaserJock> write
[05:52] <LaserJock> :-)
[05:53] <theCore> :)
[05:54] <LaserJock> theCore: got a few minutes? we could go over the outline
[05:55] <theCore> LaserJock: of course
[05:56] <LaserJock> theCore: ok, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
[05:58] <LaserJock> theCore: what do you think of it at the momement?
[05:58] <theCore> LaserJock: well, it pretty much what we have now
[05:58] <nixternal> e
[05:59] <nixternal> im using it right now for some dh_make help
[05:59] <LaserJock> theCore: the structure is a fair amount different
[06:00] <LaserJock> nixternal: good, send feedback :-)
[06:00] <nixternal> oh you know i will
[06:00] <nixternal> that or a diff if needed
[06:00] <LaserJock> theCore: I split it up into many more chapters
[06:01] <theCore> LaserJock: yeah, I see that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide?action=diff&rev1=23&rev2=22
[06:01] <nixternal> hmm..im starting to wonder where jjesse went..we need to get workin' on the SFW docs
[06:01] <LaserJock> didn't he get a new job?
[06:02] <theCore> LaserJock: it's neater that way
[06:02] <crimsun> I think it's perhaps more streamlined to have "common mistakes" integrated into each section
[06:03] <LaserJock> ah, good idea
[06:03] <LaserJock> I kinda want to cover things when the come up
[06:05] <LaserJock> do you think there is too much introductory material before you start actually working on a package? that was one complaint I got
[06:05] <LaserJock> I wanted to add a little "rebuild from source package" example early on since that is a common, and easy (usually) thing to do
[06:06] <theCore> crimsun: added
[06:06] <crimsun> LaserJock: well, no, I didn't think there was too much introductory material.
[06:06] <theCore> LaserJock: there's never enough introductory material
[06:07] <theCore> ;)
[06:08] <crimsun> LaserJock: on the other hand, something that would help immensely is a flowchart akin to what you find in O'Reilly texts where you say "if you're an experienced user but novice Debian packager, you'll find chapters X, Y, Z interesting immediately and want to skip chapters A, B, and C. If you're an inexperienced user, you'll want to dive right into chapter A. [..] "
[06:08] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:08] <LaserJock> that's kinda what I'm looking for
[06:09] <LaserJock> there's really a fairly large range of experience I'd like to target here
[06:09] <crimsun> you really can cover it all
[06:09] <theCore> maybe we should explain why peoples should do packages
[06:09] <crimsun> just make sure that first section really lays things (flow) out clearly
[06:10] <crimsun> theCore: sure, I see that as something viable in the first "novice" chapter
[06:10] <LaserJock> I think if we have : 1)totally new 2) more refresher/reference type 3) info for Debian people who just need to know about Ubuntu specifics
[06:10] <crimsun> an experienced user, well, already knows why packages are important
[06:11] <LaserJock> the other thing to keep in my is hopefully we will have an Ubuntu Developer's Reference in edgy
[06:12] <LaserJock> s/my/mind/
[06:12] <LaserJock> which I hope to sort of sell them as pair
[06:13] <crimsun> more useful to the semi-experienced users, probably
[06:13] <LaserJock> right
[06:13] <LaserJock> so the PG guides you through the knowledge you need to create and deal with packages
[06:14] <LaserJock> and the UDR provides the more specifc reference that Ubuntu developers need to get their job done
[06:14] <LaserJock> but hopefully together they give a pretty decent documentation of what you need to become an Ubuntu developer
[06:15] <LaserJock> theCore: are you presently editing the wiki page?
[06:15] <crimsun> probably s/become an Ubuntu developer/develop apps using Ubuntu/g
[06:15] <theCore> LaserJock: yes
[06:16] <LaserJock> theCore: tell me when your done
[06:16] <crimsun> something that will help is separating detailed explanations from the quick-n'-dirty
[06:16] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:17] <crimsun> (i.e., the ongoing ubuntuguide vs. wiki debate)
[06:17] <LaserJock> I've wanted to do that but I haven't really figure out a good way of doing it
[06:17] <crimsun> so in the chapters, detailed explanations are used, but there are appendices where no explanation is given for people who just want the rundown
[06:18] <LaserJock> yeah, but that was my big complaint with the New Maintainer's Guide
[06:18] <theCore> LaserJock: done
[06:18] <LaserJock> all the helpful stuff was at the end
[06:18] <crimsun> the bulk of the material is there already in the PG; this is mainly a workflow issue
[06:18] <theCore> should we cover checkinstall?
[06:18] <LaserJock> I'd rather cover rebuilding source than checkinstall
[06:18] <crimsun> my gut says "no"
[06:19] <crimsun> normally checkinstall is used for newer backports (backports) or non-existing ones, which is precisely the larger portion of the target audience
[06:19] <LaserJock> I think we can make simple packaging easy enough that checkinstall wouldn't be worth the pain
[06:20] <theCore> ok
[06:20] <LaserJock> I've thought about it though
[06:20] <crimsun> we should definitely cover how to backport using pbuilder and link to how to request an official backport
[06:20] <LaserJock> but I'd just rather not go down that road
[06:20] <LaserJock> yeah, good point
[06:21] <crimsun> backporting will probably need to be one of the later chapters, since pbuilder will need to have been introduced and explained
[06:22] <theCore> and, would it better to use dummy examples for the first examples, thus reducing the complexity of the control file, and then move on with some real world examples?
[06:24] <LaserJock> yeah, I'm wondering about that
[06:24] <LaserJock> hello turned out to be more complicated than I wanted
[06:25] <LaserJock> we could build a working hello package without some of the complexity
[06:25] <LaserJock> I didn't have time to do it for dapper
[06:25] <crimsun> how 'bout using the gtk hello world example?
[06:25] <LaserJock> how's that different?
[06:25] <crimsun> that way people get a graphical doodah they can click
[06:25] <LaserJock> ah
[06:26] <crimsun> it's simple, and people can see it displayed
[06:26] <crimsun> and it's also documented on gtk.org :)
[06:26] <LaserJock> having a GUI would be cool
[06:26] <LaserJock> I mean we have hello , but the packaging is a bit hard to go through all in one shot
[06:26] <theCore> wouldn't raise the complexity of the package even higher?
[06:27] <crimsun> it would, yes, but it's something that would be explained
[06:27] <crimsun> and besides, we're talking about packaging for people who like guis
[06:27] <crimsun> the gtk hello world example is already in the gtk doc
[06:28] <crimsun> all we have to do is tell them how to package it
[06:28] <theCore> hmm... could be interesting
[06:28] <crimsun> that would also give us a chance to tell them about .desktop files, so they can execute the simple gtk app
[06:28] <nixternal> hrm..crimsun my man...  if i want to update a package, say lyx for instance..i grab the new .tar.gz from their site, and apt-get source lyx from us...i use pbuilder, is it correct to copy over the /debian/* files and edit them from the ubuntu source?
[06:28] <LaserJock> it would be cool
[06:28] <crimsun> nixternal: uupdate
[06:29] <crimsun> nixternal: don't blow away the previous debian/ infrastructure unless you know you need to
[06:29] <nixternal> uupdate?
[06:29] <crimsun> I'm pretty sure this is in the PG ...?
[06:30] <nixternal> well...the pbuilder stuff is all about "packaging from scratch"..that is where i kind of got confused for a second
[06:30] <crimsun> ah, it's not really covered in the current PG
[06:31] <crimsun> it's basically three steps
[06:31] <LaserJock> no
[06:31] <crimsun> 1) apt-get source foo   [for the current package] 
[06:31] <nixternal> and if you read about debhelper, it is almost like you should use it for what i want to do..but debhelper debianizes files 
[06:31] <crimsun> 2) download the newer upstream tarball
[06:32] <crimsun> 3) cd foo-currentversion && uupdate ../foo-newerversion.tar.gz
[06:32] <crimsun> then follow the instructions that are displayed
[06:32] <nixternal> cool..thank you sir
[06:32] <crimsun> yeah, we'll definitely add that
[06:33] <nixternal> i knew something wasn't 100% there...i have read this thing a few times now ;)
[06:34] <nixternal> crimsun: should i at least create the /debian directory in the newer upstream dir?
[06:34] <nixternal> or will uupdate do that for me
[06:34] <crimsun> no
[06:34] <crimsun> uupdate will do that
[06:34] <nixternal> cool
[06:34] <nixternal> thanks
[06:36] <LaserJock> ok guys, reload the wiki page
[06:37] <LaserJock> any missing vital topics?
[06:38] <theCore> look good to me
[06:40] <LaserJock> I'm thinking of adding a section in Bugs about sending patches upstream
[06:42] <Burgundavia> nixternal: some work for you: move https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BridgingNetworkInterfaces
[06:42] <Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
[06:42] <crimsun> LaserJock: looks good
[06:42] <nixternal> hiya jsgotangco
[06:42] <jsgotangco> hey
[06:42] <nixternal> no problem Burgundavia
[06:42] <Burgundavia> nixternal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessRouterHowto
[06:42] <LaserJock> hi Burgundavia and jsgotangco 
[06:43] <LaserJock> crimsun: ok cool, I'm going to clean it up rearrange the .xml to reflect the new outline and beg and plead on -motu and -devel for help :-)
[06:44] <LaserJock> maybe I can get Moser to start a big thread about the security vunerabilities in the Packaging Guide
[06:47] <LaserJock> oh, the other thing I want -motu and -devel advice on is the pbuilder and chroot sections
[06:47] <LaserJock> I took them off the wiki, but then infinity (I think it was him) had issues with parts of the chroot guide
[06:48] <LaserJock> and perhaps pbuilder could get revamped to be a bit clearer as well
[06:52] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: i guess you should go out more often
[06:52] <nixternal> LaserJock: i +1 crimsun on doing that ;)
[06:52] <nixternal> crimsun is the packaging god around town
[06:53] <nixternal> for instance..i just did his uupdate thing he showed and it worked like a charm..i just don't know where to pick up now ;)
[06:55] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: ok, with that I'll say goodnight while I have so time left this evening
[06:55] <LaserJock> s/so/some/
[06:55] <jsgotangco> lol
[06:55] <LaserJock> cya guys
[06:55] <nixternal> g'nite LaserJock
[06:55] <nixternal> am i really seeing a wireless router howto on the ubuntu wiki?
[06:56] <nixternal> should i drop the "Howto" from the title on h.u.c/c/?
[06:56] <crimsun> you totally need more howtos
[06:56] <crimsun> j/k
[06:57] <nixternal> i was waiting for that one ;)
[06:57] <nixternal> it is sad when you can detect sarcasm on irc
[06:58] <Burgundavia> can I write the HowToHowToHowto?
[06:58] <nixternal> how about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter
[06:58] <nixternal> +1 burg
[07:00] <nixternal> how about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter & i link it on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter
[07:01] <nixternal> i think that would be the best thing to do here
[07:01] <Burgundavia> we all trust your judgment, nixternal
[07:01] <Burgundavia> (actaully, we are too lazy to do it ourselves)
[07:01] <nixternal> whew...cuz i already did it ;)
[07:08] <nixternal> done
[10:22] <nixternal> is it possible to get the                "Redirected from page "XXXX"     -    Clear message        lines/text whatever, reduced in size?  
[10:22] <nixternal> it might just be me, but i find it annoying at times as it pushes down a few lines
[10:24] <mdke> everything is possible
[10:25] <nixternal> of course, as long as mdke is around ;)
[10:25] <nixternal> how are you doing this fine day, evening, morning ;)
[10:26] <mdke> fine thanks, you?
[10:26] <nixternal> kind of tired..but working hard at staying awake
[10:26] <nixternal> working with hobbsee a little bit tonight on some packaging
[10:27] <mdke> cool
[10:28] <mdke> we certainly need a meeting soon
[10:28] <nixternal> im ready for some doc work big time
[10:28] <mdke> i'll email about it
[10:28] <nixternal> i emailed jjesse and phil bull??  on the switching from windows docs..hopefully we can start that soon...plus edgy docs
[10:47] <nixternal> g'nite all
[09:37] <nixternal> hiya jjesse
[09:42] <jjesse> hiya nixternal
[09:42] <nixternal> you been pretty busy lately i take it?
[09:42] <jjesse> been on the road for work a lot
[09:43] <nixternal> also got a guy on the Chicago team from berrien springs..he is just hanging out really...but interested in a Michigan team
[09:43] <jjesse> cool, i know the detroit team is very very active 
[09:44] <nixternal> hmm..didn't think about that..even though he is closer to chicago, maybe he should also look into detroit
[09:44] <nixternal> i will email him the info
[09:44] <nixternal> actually..berrien springs is in the middle
[09:51] <jjesse> missed the log, but did you become a member at the meeting?
[09:54] <nixternal> waiting on mako
[09:54] <nixternal> it is up to him to confirm/deny
[09:54] <jjesse> oh
[09:54] <nixternal> im confident i will make it though..as he approved the Chicago Team
[09:54] <nixternal> and everyone else approved me
[09:54] <jjesse> cool
[09:57] <crimsun> jenda: do you still need -marketing stuff mirrored?
[09:58] <jenda> hey there crimsun :)
[09:58] <jenda> Nothing ATM, really
[09:58] <crimsun> ok, I was going to remove what's currently there unless you really needed it
[09:58] <jenda> but there might be some in the future - I have about three people who I keep bugging therewith, and there's usually at least one online :)
[09:58] <jenda> OK, lemme check
[09:59] <jenda> could you link me?
[09:59] <jenda> ah, it was the layout design
[09:59] <mdke_> meh
[09:59] <mdke_> jenda: you know full well now that hosting is available if necessary
[09:59] <jenda> crimsun: nah, it's OK, you can take it down.
[09:59] <crimsun> jenda: ok
[10:00] <crimsun> mdke_: this was a stop-gap emergency thing iirc
[10:00] <mdke_> crimsun: yeah I remember
[10:00] <jenda> mdke_: I know bzr is, and i'm using it... and I know that I can host stuff on the wiki, which I do with some things. 
[10:01] <jenda> mdke_: Did you have anything else in mind?
[10:02] <mdke_> jenda: you were told that if the marketing team needs a server, it can use the docteam one.
[10:02] <jenda> OK, mdke_, how would that work then? I'm sorry, but it seems I misuderstood something.
[10:04] <jenda> crimsun: OK, thanks for that. it's been on the wiki for a while, I forgot to tell you, sorry.
[10:04] <mdke_> jenda: if the marketing team does something that isn't suitable for mirroring on the wiki (which afaics it hasn't yet), it can setup a webserver (or other software) on the docteam server.
[10:04] <crimsun> jenda: np.
[10:05] <jenda> mdke_: I have 5 megabytes of files in the bzr repo, and it would be a lot of work to put it all on the wiki, and bzr isn't easily accessible for outsiders.
[10:05] <jenda> It's html pages, svgs, xcfs, pngs and jpegs mostly, I think.
[10:06] <mdke_> jenda: so what is it that you'd like to do with that?
[10:07] <jenda> I'd like it to be accessible through a browser on the net, as a list of files and directories. No other special treatment really. If the URL could be marketing.ubuntu.com, it'd be great, but it's not necessary.
[10:08] <mdke_> ok, that's fine, we can do that
[10:09] <jenda> From the other side, I'd like either all active members of the marketig team to have write access (preferably through nautilus (ie. ssh, ftp is good)), or better, selected active people to have access. I'm a little worried to give access to over 40 people just like that.
[10:09] <jenda> Might be wrong there, of course, because OTOH, there is no real damage to be done.
[10:09] <mdke_> jenda: I think what you should do is use the version control system to control access
[10:09] <jenda> Hmm
[10:09] <jenda> ATM, the entire team has write access to bzr
[10:10] <jenda> In fact, it would be best if the two were synced, really...
[10:10] <jenda> but it's rather difficult to do both ways.
[10:10] <mdke_> just one way...
[10:10] <mdke_> so what you do is just work in bzr, then mirror it on the server so that anyone can see it
[10:12] <jenda> Yes that's good enough
[10:13] <jenda> In fact, it's perfect
[11:35] <LaserJock> hi Burgundavia 
[11:40] <Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
[11:46] <Riddell> what's happened to the newsletter?
[11:47] <LaserJock> hmm, mgalvin isn't on
[11:47] <LaserJock> #6 is it supposed to be?
[11:47] <crimsun> he did mention he wouldn't have much time or something
[11:47] <Riddell> he missed last week and seems to be about to miss this week
[11:47] <Riddell> there's material on there, wouldn't be hard for someone to pick it up
[11:47] <Riddell> just reformatting and proofreading
[11:48] <LaserJock> bah, we need than one person to be able to do these things so if a person has to duck out for a few weeks the ship doesn't go down ;-)
[11:52] <Riddell> so... volunteers?
[11:56] <LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
[11:57] <LaserJock> Riddell: honestly, the best idea is to email ubuntu-doc
[12:01] <Riddell> oh sodit, I'll just do it
[12:08] <nixternal> are you following m e
[12:09] <nixternal> Riddell: there was another person who stepped up, however i will look at my log to see who it was...and of course i said i would help get it completed