/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/07/18/#ubuntu-marketing.txt

=== jenda is back...
jendanixternal, will there be meeting minutes or should I read the log?12:14
nixternalthere will be meeting minutes12:15
nixternalafter dinner ;)12:15
MenZaHuzzah jenda12:16
jendaHuzzah Mezzah12:16
jenda*Menzzah12:16
MenZao_o12:20
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nixternaljenda: ping?04:21
nixternalhiya Rinchen04:21
RinchenHowdy Nix04:22
=== Rinchen laughs at nix signing for sabdfl on the cds.
nixternalhehe04:38
=== bimberi would rather have a nixternal signed CD anyway!
nixternalhehe...thanks bimberi ;)04:50
nixternalit will be worthless someday ;)04:50
nixternalactually..as soon as i signed it04:50
bimberipffft04:51
RinchenHey nix if you see Sara let her know the answer to ssh is in email...and my mail server is down :-)  Soon as it's back she'll get all the step by steps05:04
Rinchenplease and thanks05:04
nixternalroger that05:05
nixternalif i don't forget of course05:05
Rinchenlol yeah I know..she's sending email but I don't see her on IM or irc05:05
Rinchenok, going to put the 2yo to bed and then frag folks in legacy ...cheers05:06
bimberigee, Launchpad generates a lot of email ;)05:13
nixternalya it does05:16
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adamant1988hello all06:27
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adamant1988hey nixternal06:41
nixternalhiya adamant198806:41
adamant1988how's life, the kids, your growth, w/e?06:41
nixternalwell..power just came back on, so that is good06:42
nixternalwell actually..i just powered everything back up..storm was a little strong for my liking, so to be safe i shut down06:42
adamant1988That happens06:43
adamant1988I had to close down the store by myself at work.. I hate when people don't show up06:43
nixternalit got really bad here though06:43
nixternalthats fun stuff right there06:43
adamant1988oh yeah it is... store closes at 10' I was out at 15 after 1206:44
nixternaloh ya, forgot you are in WV06:44
adamant1988yeah =\06:45
adamant1988Still looking for a new pc... I know full well that I'm going to want it with linux preinstalled I'm thinking system76 still...06:45
nixternalif you do, i would suggest getting an equipment/parts list if possible from them06:49
adamant1988a lot of it I have to customize myself anyway06:53
adamant1988the system I'm configureing starts stock at $39906:53
adamant1988I just want an XGL compatible graphics card for the most part, I don't game much so it won't hurt me any06:53
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klepasmoing07:39
Madpilothi klepas07:40
klepasSara Vasquez around?07:43
klepashi Madpilot07:43
klepasor anyone from the magteam07:43
nixternalsara is probably passed out07:45
nixternalwhats up klepas?07:46
klepasi figured out i might as well get myself neck deep into this07:46
klepasthe mag that is07:46
nixternallol07:46
klepasi did one of the mockup designs sara kinda liked07:46
klepashappy to expand and such07:46
nixternalwell, if it continues the way it is, there just might be a very busy project in the future with it07:46
klepasyea, that's what i am smelling ;)07:47
nixternalsara is keeping me busy with the wiki07:48
klepashttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine#head-56633895f56a3107d68d4d283b24b7d736e2f840 - this needs fixing07:48
klepasthe link that is07:48
nixternaloh, that is all going to get fixed07:49
klepas:)07:49
nixternalim redoing everything for UbuntuMagazine as well as UbuntuMarketing..if only people would anser my emails ;)07:49
klepasbbs--coffee break07:50
adamant1988Personally I'm re-evaluating my opinion on how Ubuntu should be spread.07:51
adamant1988I think the personal touch is what matters.07:51
adamant1988I'm doing this strictly as an experiment, but I'm working with a local computer store and another store that is willing to donate floor space to make a 'linux center'.07:52
adamant1988Currently the distro of choice is Ubuntu, but I'm giving SLED 10 a nice hard look.  We're looking at having Wireless internet access and allowing people to come in and use Ubuntu (maybe suse) computers and see what they think.07:53
Burgundaviaadamant1988: I would be very careful with the amount of choice you offer07:54
Burgundaviawhether you choose sled, ubuntu, or anything else, I would offer only one07:54
adamant1988Well, I'm working on how to best sort that07:55
Burgundaviachoice will only confuse users07:55
adamant1988I think I'm going to push SLED 10 as the more premium option if I choose to use it.07:55
Burgundaviawithout a clear distinction between them07:55
Burgundaviafigure out what you need, and then look hard at each07:56
adamant1988I think in this case the needs are met by both07:56
adamant1988but I'm looking at Suse because users don't trust free things.07:56
Burgundaviait is not free: they are buying a boxed set07:56
adamant1988Suse is boxed, ubuntu isn't07:57
adamant1988Suse <- Not free, comes with tech support, people will trust it =\07:57
Burgundaviahere is what I would do: purchase some pressed cd's from canonical07:57
Burgundaviabuy some dvd cases, make a dvd cover and voila, you have something to sell07:57
adamant1988While I would love to do that, I have an ethical issue with making money from otherwise free software07:58
Burgundaviause the money to buy computers for the needy or something07:58
Burgundaviamoney is not unethical if used correctly07:58
adamant1988Actually we're looking at picking up older computers and putting Xubuntu on them to give away for publicity07:59
Burgundaviaperfect07:59
Burgundaviause the money for that07:59
adamant1988free computer, free OS, free publicity07:59
Burgundaviamaybe hire a teacher and offer classes?07:59
adamant1988I don't want to get too ahead of myself, a lot of the stuff that needs learned is basic and people will pick up on it quick.07:59
Burgundaviayep08:00
adamant1988first I need to decide if I want to push Ubuntu of SLED 10 as a premium system... I think people will be more drawn to SLED 10 though08:00
Burgundaviawhy?08:00
Burgundaviathe box?08:01
adamant1988the menu system is more intuitive, XGL integrated for all the eye candy that those end-users love so much, integrated search, etc.08:01
nixternali would setup debian sarge servers with encrypted file systems and then show them how fabulous pine and mutt are for email and show them the greatness of irssi and bitlbee for all their instant messaging needs!!!08:01
adamant1988people are getting to the point where expecting the OS to have lot's of eye candy and such...08:02
adamant1988vista and mac os x only enforce that =\08:02
Madpilotnixternal, har har ;)08:02
nixternalhehe08:02
Madpilotthat said, I do like pine, but it's hardly modern & shiny08:02
Burgundaviano, people are not looking for eye candy08:02
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Burgundaviathey are looking for things that work08:02
adamant1988and XGL on Ubuntu isn't so stable I hear.08:02
jsgotangcoyes?08:02
Burgundaviahey jsgotangco08:03
Burgundaviawe are discussing selling ubuntu, and suse08:03
jsgotangcooh goodie i got to join i thought my channel limit was up08:03
adamant1988Burgundavia, they want things that work, and they want things that work EASY.  But they also don't want to be staring at a boring desktop all day.08:03
jsgotangcoim not really going to sell ubuntu based on XGL performance08:03
Burgundaviaadamant1988: boring is good for mom and dad and aunt and uncle08:03
jsgotangcoits a feature, not a benefit08:04
Burgundaviaboring means predictable08:04
adamant1988it's a feature that's optional in SLED 10, you can turn it off or on however you see fit.08:04
jsgotangcobenefits have better returns than features08:04
Burgundaviaah, ah button that you can turn off08:04
nixternalXGL on anything isn't so stable08:04
Burgundaviano, hence an issue08:05
BurgundaviaI have also heard really bad things about beagle08:05
nixternalas i have too08:05
adamant1988actually, I've heard it was running fine, (XGL) but the ubuntu community build is buggy08:05
nixternalsomeone lied to you08:05
adamant1988I don't know what bad things about beagle there are.. I haven't found them =\08:05
nixternalas you can check suse's site and they will tell you how buggy it is08:05
jsgotangcoif you noticed xgl/compiz hype just fizzled out08:06
nixternalyup08:06
jsgotangcoits not great news anymore08:06
nixternalbecause it is actually pretty bad08:06
jsgotangcohence its a feature that doesn't give any lasting benefit08:06
Burgundaviathe issues are with indexing, which only some people hit08:06
nixternali played with it..it is ok on Ubuntu, and a no go on Kubuntu08:06
nixternaland the fact it leaks memory worse the US government on CIA operative08:06
adamant1988i'll let darkmatter know he's a liar then :P08:07
nixternalfine with me ;)08:07
adamant1988meh just the translucent windows would be enough for me08:07
adamant1988the jello windows doesn't do much for me08:07
jsgotangcoagain, if you're targetting on marketing ubuntu, focus on benefits than features because how you sell it makes a difference, not just "me too" features08:07
jsgotangcoit won't differentiate you from the rest08:07
nixternali like the minimize windows to desktop feature though..like on macs08:08
=== jsgotangco goes back to work
Burgundaviashiny bling08:08
=== adamant1988 didn't see that.
nixternalheh08:08
adamant1988I played with kororaa08:08
Burgundaviaagain, people want technologies like toasters08:08
Burgundaviathings that just work08:08
adamant1988I'm actually really suprised it worked as I though XGL hated ATI08:08
Burgundaviatoasters don't have bling08:08
nixternalkororaa is about as garbage as one can get since the livecd is outdated08:08
jsgotangcoits only a good bling cd08:08
nixternalFreedomToasters for all!!!08:08
adamant1988perhaps there is another live cd xgl project?08:09
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adamant1988either way, I'm still going to do research and testing before I select a distro08:10
Burgundaviayou might be saner to offer a distro that did mp3 and dvd playback out of the box08:10
Burgundaviathose are things people care about08:10
adamant1988like SLED 10?08:10
bimberiwith placement in a store though, people are more likely to choose a toaster on looks08:10
adamant1988SLED 10 does mp3, flash, java what have you, right out of the box08:11
adamant1988ATI and Nvidia drivers08:11
adamant1988so, in that respect, there is another +1 for sled 1008:12
adamant1988The only thing I dislike about SLED 10 is it's designed for office use, not home use.08:12
Burgundaviahow so?08:12
adamant1988Suse Linux ENTERPRISE desktop08:12
bimberimp3? office?08:13
adamant1988yeah I know, go figure08:13
adamant1988It's got everything a home user needs inside the office package08:13
nixternalwhat makes it designed for office use, beside the stupid name?08:14
adamant1988nothing.08:14
nixternalit doesn't have anything 'office' that any other distro doesn't have08:14
adamant1988It's a perfectly good home distro besides the name08:14
nixternali used SuSe since 96..and i only stopped 2 years ago..and i will not touch Novell stuff with a 10' poll08:15
adamant1988I personally think Ubuntu would be better for the office... No flash, no mp3... no wasting time.08:15
nixternali was so in love with the freakin' lizard you couldn't get me to change08:15
Burgundavianames mean nothing08:15
nixternali would have killed for it, the germans brained washed me08:15
Burgundaviawell, not much08:15
Burgundaviapersonally, enterprise tells me nothing08:15
Burgundavianow LTS does08:15
nixternalyup08:15
nixternaland adamant1988, quit saying Ubuntu doesn't have support....ubuntu has support far longer then any other distro has08:16
nixternallet me see you get 5 years of support from anyone other then microsoft08:16
bimberilonger?08:16
bimberioh, into the future, kk08:16
nixternalhehe08:16
adamant1988when did I say that ubuntu lacked support?  I just said that Suse came with a year paid support...08:17
nixternalya, and ubuntu comes with free support08:17
adamant1988from forums and such08:17
nixternal#ubuntu #kubuntu #edubuntu #xubuntu as well as https://launchpad.net/    support in there as well08:17
nixternalyou can pay for support via a 3rd party if needed08:17
adamant1988ok, you pick a person from my town and ask them if they know what IRC is08:18
nixternaland it is far cheaper then any other type of support i have seen08:18
nixternalwell if they don't know what irc is, then they shouldn't have an excuse not to goto https://launchpad.net08:18
nixternalor www.ubuntuforums.org08:18
nixternalor www.kubuntuforums.net08:18
nixternalor https://help.ubuntu.com08:18
adamant1988hopefully they would find their way there.08:18
nixternali can keep going and going and going and going08:19
=== nixternal disconnects the energizers
adamant1988But I would have to instruct them on 'this is where you go for help'.08:19
adamant1988if I preinstall ubuntu on a computer that's not a big deal08:19
adamant1988I can make a desktop icon link to a file that says where to go08:19
nixternalif they can goto 'System Menu>Help', then they can get there..if someone needs to be instructed on what that "Help" button is on the menu, then they need a typewriter08:19
adamant1988haha, that would be my mother08:20
adamant1988the one with 4 GB of ram and a Terabyte of hard drive space on her computer... ATI RADEON X850 pro...08:20
nixternalwell then, let her know office depot has a sale on brother typewriters right now08:20
Madpilotthere's the Windows "power users" (so called) who think they don't need to read the Help, because "They know how to use a d*mn computer!"08:20
nixternaland you won't get viruses on a typewriter either08:20
adamant1988that woman can't utilize the kind of power that computer has.08:20
nixternalMadpilot: you are so so so correct that i love it ;)08:21
nixternalmuhahahha08:21
adamant1988Lol, I never read help documentation when I used Windows..08:21
adamant1988it was boring08:21
Madpilotthe sort who pitch up in #ubuntu, make a fuss, then leave in a snit...08:21
adamant1988talking to people is much more interesting, I just dislike the human interaction08:21
nixternalWindows PowerUser #1: Linux isn't as stable or as fast as Windows. I can setup Linux with ease, I mean how hard is it to run a stinking computer.08:22
adamant1988I'm thinking I need to get someone involved in this project that likes people more than I do.08:22
nixternalthat is the typical line...now here is what happens when they come on irc08:22
nixternal"How come my PCI Winmodem doesn't work?"08:22
=== nixternal notes that he better not use the Kubuntu Desktop Guide for support if he can't get online concering Winmodems ;)
adamant1988lol08:23
adamant1988another issue is legality...08:23
adamant1988This whole project will put me in a situation where I'm 'distributing' linux.  meaning if I start installing libdvdcss on people's computers, I'm setting myself up for a world of hurt.08:24
Burgundaviayou have no money08:24
adamant1988neither Suse nor Ubuntu has a legal solution for DVD playback... in fact the only one I've seen that does is Linspire.08:25
Burgundaviahowever, the store is a target08:25
adamant1988so far the only thing I've found is PowerDVD for Linux.08:25
jbrouhardi'vce heard of that08:25
adamant1988but I'm not sure about how operational it is, etc.08:26
jbrouhardthat's one of Cyberlink's products08:26
jbrouhardDon't see anything on the website about Linux08:27
jbrouhardWel08:29
jbrouhardwell, Google turns up a 2004 press release08:29
jbrouhardbut nothing on their website08:29
jbrouhardMight be some kind of Volume Licensing thing08:29
adamant1988well, it's still in Linspire's CNR so idk08:29
jbrouhardHmm08:29
jbrouhardCheck out how Linspire did theirs legally08:30
jbrouhardI'm not really sure08:30
jbrouhardi thought about offering linux as a home user solution08:30
jbrouhardbut to do so requries me to "break" a few laws08:30
jbrouhardand i'm not really interested in doing so08:30
adamant1988exactly08:32
adamant1988which means that linspire is actually the only distro that includes all the codecs legally off the bat, etc.08:33
adamant1988I actually like Linspire, and CNR makes life heavenly, but it's out dated.08:33
adamant1988brb getting a sandwich08:34
bimberiadamant1988: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLiveChatSupport coming to a System > Help > Live Chat Support menu near you :)08:35
Burgundaviabimberi: is that going to be included by default?08:36
nixternalit is supposed to be08:36
bimberiBurgundavia: as i understand it yes08:37
Madpilotcool08:37
nixternalas i have been trying to draft something similar for Kubuntu working along side Riddell's Launchpad integration08:37
Madpilottoo bad Gaim sucks for IRC :|08:37
Burgundaviathe livechat support gets over the really bad part08:37
adamant1988bimberi, that's awesome08:46
bimbericool innit? :)08:47
adamant1988I'm actually thinking that Ubuntu Eft is going to make my life as a distributer a LOT easier08:47
adamant1988I won't have to tell people where to get their codecs and such... the OS will offer to do that for them08:47
jbrouhardadamant1988: One option i had in mind for distrubuting wholesale PCs with Ubuntu pre-installed08:51
klepasadamant1988: just read up on what you're hoping to do - sounds great - remember to blog your experiences in short entries :)08:52
adamant1988Yeah, just soooo many choices08:53
adamant1988as a member of the Ubuntu marketing team I feel compelled to give Ubuntu the old college try, but my experience with SLED 10 has me thinking it may be the best option08:54
adamant1988then the legal issues and what forth... can my 'company' and the business that's hosting my project become legally liable if I choose to spill the beans on enabling mp3 and DVD etc08:55
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klepasadamant1988: not really08:57
klepaseven if you provide them with EasyUbuntu08:57
adamant1988I'm violating the DMCA am I not?08:58
klepasthey are the ones downloading and installing the codecs/whatever on their computers08:58
klepasdefinitely not08:58
klepasyou're not providing circumvention08:58
adamant1988So basically, I would provide easy ubuntu instead of libdvdcss08:58
klepasit's the user and their actions08:58
klepasyes08:58
klepaseasyubuntu is python program08:58
klepasallows you to select whatever you want to install08:59
adamant1988but documentation on libdvdcss is illegal yes?08:59
klepasallows you to to select and install a list of restricted, proprietary and/or otherwise software not included by default yet popular and important. Included are such things as restricted multimedia codecs, libdvdcss, MIDI support, Flash, Java, Skype and OpenWengo, archiving support for RAR, ACE, 7-Zip, additional fonts (includes 'msttcorefonts') and nVidia/ATi proprietary binary drivers.08:59
nixternaldocumentation no08:59
nixternalthat would be free speach08:59
klepasadamant1988: some people printed tshirts with the C code that makes up the decoder: libdvdcss09:00
klepasto prove the free speech point09:00
klepas:P09:00
=== nixternal has the goofy t-shirt
klepashey, cool09:00
mdke__it might be illegal, depending on what you say09:00
klepasi always wanted one of those09:00
mdke__encouraging people to get around copyright protection is illegal in the US, and probably lots of other countries09:00
nixternali can tell you how to make a bomb, that is legal, but you better bet they are gonna get you one way or the other09:01
nixternalthe thing that was illegal was the "telling people how to use it, get it, install it"09:01
adamant1988perhaps providing automatix would be better... it installs a lot of other, very legal, crap.09:02
nixternalthey aren't messing with people much since the RIAA lost the injunction or whatnot in the supreme court09:02
klepaseasyubuntu does too09:02
klepaseasyubuntu allows you to install rar support09:03
klepasor flash support09:03
nixternaljust like directv suing me for $35k because i bought a programmer, looper and bootstrap setup for H cards years back09:03
klepasand if you agree to the licenses, it's all legal09:03
adamant1988yeah, well mp3 support and such isn't a problem in a distro like SLED, but In Ubuntu it's an issue.09:04
mdke__not really09:04
adamant1988DVDplaying support is my main worry, a lot of people in my community use their computer for multimedia like dvd all the time09:04
mdke__all you need is to ensure that your multimedia programs can prompt to install mp3 support when a user tries to play one, and the problem goes away09:04
adamant1988which is what is happening in Edgy Eft.09:04
mdke__right09:04
klepashuh?09:05
klepasi don't get that...?09:05
adamant1988exactly, it doesn't make it any more legal, but it does make it easy.09:05
klepaswhat are they doing in edgy in regards to restricted formats?09:05
mdke__klepas: you try to play an mp3, it says "mp3s dont work, would you like to install a package to make it work?", you say yes09:05
adamant1988they're basically making it so that when you try to use a restricted format, you're told why it's restricted and the OS will offer to install it09:05
klepasnice09:06
klepas:)09:06
adamant1988Yeah, it will be after october when this whole thing starts happening anyway09:06
mdke__well, it's really a feature that any good os should have09:06
adamant1988is it supposed to do that for DVD as well?09:07
mdke__we just don't have it because linux distributions are thrown together in bits and pieces09:07
nixternalg'nite09:07
klepasfare well nixternal09:08
adamant1988night man09:08
adamant1988yeah, That's certainly very cool, I didn't think I could get around the draconian DMCA but I guess every law has it's loopholes09:09
mdke__not really :)09:10
adamant1988lol, what's that supposed to mean?09:10
=== klepas thinks some laws aren't worth upholding if they are wrong
mdke__adamant1988: laws don't tend to have loopholes09:11
adamant1988klepas, if only the authorities agreed with you09:11
klepaslawyers tend to make sure of that09:11
mdke__it's not that, it's just that there are things which fill in the gaps09:11
adamant1988so, then, why does the DMCA have that loophole to it? that's pretty glaringly obvious09:11
adamant1988you would think if they were going to stamp on our civil rights they would just go all the way09:12
mdke__where there are gaps, legal principles fill them in... otherwise the legal system would be in bits and pieces09:12
adamant1988aha09:13
KenSentMeGood morning people09:13
klepasmoin09:13
adamant1988Yeah, well, I still have some time to make a decision09:14
adamant1988I want to put a group together for it though, so decisions aren't just mine...09:14
adamant1988I, myself, as a user find a lot of great strengths in both Ubuntu and SLED 10.  ubuntu is the single most welcoming operating system I have ever used, by far though.  You just feel at home using it.09:16
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adamant1988man, I'm tired.09:19
adamant1988I'll start doing comparison charts for these two in the morning. :)09:20
adamant1988good night all.09:20
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jendanixternal: pong10:14
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digitalmousegreetings programs!10:51
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jendagreen wave...11:09
jendaHuzzah, MenZa11:09
MenZasups :)11:09
jendazenrox: ping?11:25
jendaunping11:46
digitalmouse pong12:15
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jendaHey there nickm1 ;)12:42
jendaI'm just on my way out, really.12:42
nickm1oh, hi :)12:43
nickm1sorry, i was on another planet12:43
nickm1how is everything?12:44
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jendaHello zard1989, gaz00, klepas.02:15
gaz00morning jenda!02:15
gaz00what's new in the ubuntu-marketing world?02:17
jendahmm02:19
jenda:)02:19
jendanot much, really. I'm too busy this week to have time to advance on the ideas.02:19
jendaI'd like to select a final SU designer on friday, at the meeting.02:19
jendaand preferably have SU designed when i get back from vacation on the 12th02:20
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gaz00interesting...   is there a page where people have proposals for SU?02:34
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adamant1988nixternal,03:10
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adamant1988hey darkmatter_03:32
darkmatter_ello03:32
adamant1988i'm supposed to tell you that you're a liar, "XGL isn't anywhere near stable"03:33
adamant1988lol03:34
adamant1988we had a large discussion about xgl last night03:35
darkmatter_lol... who said that03:37
darkmatter_they were drunk03:37
darkmatter_:P03:37
adamant1988nixternal.03:37
adamant1988hrmmm I just got my letter back from hp03:38
darkmatter_ahh03:38
darkmatter_waz it say03:38
adamant1988Well, can I PM you and paste it?03:39
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RichJGET OUT THERE AND START MARKETING!!!11:56
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RichJheh, don't expect much11:59
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