/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/07/18/#ubuntu-motu.txt

cbx33thank you so much LaserJock and sistpoty12:11
sistpotycbx33: thank's for your contribution ;)12:11
cbx33np12:12
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LaserJockToadstool: did you really mean to send that to all those lists?12:49
ToadstoolLaserJock: yep12:50
LaserJockk :-)12:51
ToadstoolI've just followed what dholbach wrote in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Draft12:51
nixternalLaserJock: you pimp the school but you don't hang out there ;)12:51
Toadstoolmass bug day annoucement spam :p12:51
Toadstool+n12:51
LaserJockToadstool: but the subject sounds more like a discussion topic than an announcment :-)12:51
nixternalsweet Toadstool, i can't wait!!!12:52
nixternalback to dinner ;)12:52
LaserJocknixternal: yeah yeah, I get to many channels open12:52
ToadstoolLaserJock: well, I'm not good at choosing mail subjects :)12:52
LaserJockso are we going to have a Hug Day every Wednesday?12:53
nictukuhmm I need to find a way to perform "apt-get -s upgrade" as an unprivileged user.12:53
nictukuavoiding the lock would be great12:54
LaserJockhmm12:54
LaserJockinteresting thought12:54
ToadstoolLaserJock: hmm... that's what was planned at the end of Dapper's development, every Wednesday -> hug day IIRC12:54
nictukuaptitude :-)12:54
LaserJockToadstool: k12:54
FujitsuWe need them :)12:55
Toadstoolindeed :)12:55
LaserJockwell, we need Hug Days, REVU Days, Merge Days, School Days, Meeting Days12:55
LaserJockthat's 512:55
LaserJocklooks like our week is packed ;-)12:55
Toadstoolheh12:55
FujitsuHeheheh12:56
=== Fujitsu merges.
LaserJockFujitsu: I'm not sure you are allowed to on non-Merge Days ;-)12:56
FujitsuOr not.12:57
LaserJockhehe12:57
FujitsuI think all my syncs/merges worked properly...12:57
=== Fujitsu checks Launchpad.
LaserJockthat's cool12:57
LaserJockmake sure to document those on your wiki page12:58
sistpotybtw.: does UVF apply for universe as well?12:58
LaserJockthere is one Universe Freeze12:58
tsengnot until feature freeze12:58
LaserJockin September some time12:58
LaserJockat the same time as Beta Freeze I believe12:58
LaserJockit is UVF and FF combined for Universe12:59
FujitsuLaserJock, I did :)12:59
sistpotygreat :)12:59
LaserJockyeah, cause I was freaking out at the thought of how many merges needed to be done by July 13th :-)01:00
Toadstoolsistpoty: UniverseFreeze -> September 28th according to the wiki01:00
LaserJockhmm, that sounds like a factoid01:00
sistpotyToadstool: ah, thx... wasn't there when I last looked at it01:01
Toadstool:)01:01
FujitsuLaserJock, I was about to die when I checked a week ago... I thought you were going to be stuffed.01:01
LaserJockhmm?01:02
LaserJock!freeze01:02
ubotuSeptember 28th is the Universe Freeze. No new packages or upstream versions after this point without an exception. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule01:02
FujitsuHaha. Very good.01:02
Toadstooloops, 1am and I'm supposed to wake up at 6am... time to go to bed01:02
FujitsuI think it might be advisable to rename UVF.01:02
Toadstoolg'night everybody01:02
FujitsuBye, Toadstool!01:03
LaserJockcya ToadZzZztool01:03
sistpotygn8 ToadZzZztool01:03
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zulhey01:10
tsenghi01:10
zulhow is it going tseng?01:10
FujitsuHi zul.01:11
zulhey01:11
tsengfine thanks01:11
crimsunLaserJock: Micah Cowan raises a good point RE: MOTU Mentors01:13
LaserJockcrimsun: yeah, I'm replying01:13
ograwell, the spec should have defined that, shouldnt it ?01:13
FujitsuMentors, or lack thereof?01:13
crimsunLaserJock: and I'm not really sure how approximating a number of mentored people each of us would "accept" really changes things01:14
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LaserJockcrimsun: well, the problem was that everybody said "busy"01:14
LaserJockwhich is a real turnoff01:14
FujitsuYeah, I noticed that when I looked at the page. It was quite a turn off.01:14
crimsunLaserJock: I think it might be easier for us to go the "office hours" route01:14
LaserJockso I put "generally available" and I got 2 right off the bat01:14
crimsunwell, for those of us who are "very busy", it really means "very busy".01:15
LaserJockcrimsun: perhaps, although dholbach didn't liek the idea01:15
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LaserJockcrimsun: right, but it still mean all the people are going to go for the least busy person01:15
crimsunthen why don't we get rid of availability altogether?01:15
LaserJockyeah, perhaps that's the best solution01:15
LaserJockalthough I do like the idea of giving some indication of availability01:16
FujitsuProbably.01:16
crimsunthere's really no point in having it at all since we know there's going to be a strong tendency toward those who have a higher threshold or increased hours01:16
zulhow bout the mentor is in...ie something in the topic01:16
FujitsuBecause I thought you were the only really available one, LaserJock. It's not a good idea having that field.01:16
LaserJockthe problem is, in general, the people who are very active in MOTU are usually the least likely to have time for MOTU Hopeful development01:17
FujitsuYeah, that's unfortunate.01:18
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crimsunand yet those are specifically the people who would benefit most from having people to mentor.01:18
LaserJockhi micahcowan, we were just talking about you :-)01:18
micahcowanOh? :-)01:18
micahcowanSorry I missed a good chunk of the conversation...01:19
crimsunthe further one progresses from being an initial "mentored" person, the more easily one loses sight of what areas to emphasise.01:19
crimsunhow about instead of using "availability" we have extend the IDs to Name, e-mail, irc nick, and preferred method of communication?01:20
crimsuns/have//01:20
LaserJockhmm, what would the preferred method of communication be?01:21
LaserJockI think the idea is to use email01:21
crimsuneither irc or e-mail for starters01:21
crimsunthat way those of us who can't access either readily can choose what's most appropriate01:21
LaserJockI was thinking Name, email, irc nick, and area of intrest would maybe be good01:22
FujitsuYeah, that sounds good.01:22
crimsun"active MOTU areas" is probably a more delicate way of phrasing that01:22
LaserJockyeah01:22
crimsunok, so let's go with that idea then01:23
crimsundrop availability and add active areas01:23
LaserJockmicahcowan: so was the Mentors wiki page any better than my email?01:23
LaserJockor did both suck?01:23
ryanakca"original Make have been modified: you should use a patch instead"   http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2439     I still have the original make, what do I do... if you feel so inclined, you can refer me to a webpage explaining how to patch for packaging :)01:24
micahcowanI think it said more or less the same thing as the email.01:24
LaserJockhmmm01:24
LaserJockmicahcowan: so it was mostly just that you didn't really see what the point of it?01:25
=== Fujitsu wonders if he can fill somebody's mentoring slot.
micahcowanLaserJock: or that the point of it wasn't altogether clear to me, yeah...01:26
crimsunI think it's also important to consider having multiple mentors01:26
sistpotyryanakca: you could use s.th. like dpatch or cdbs' simple-patch-sys...01:26
LaserJockcrimsun: well the point was to turn them over to MOTU as a whole once they could stand on 2 legs, so to speak01:26
sistpotyryanakca: but imo directly patching the sources is ok as well, though raphink doesn't like it :P01:27
micahcowanUnless the point of it was just to get familiar with the mailing list, IRC, etc., get your feet damp...01:27
ryanakcalol... he's the one who said to patch it... so :)01:27
LaserJockmicahcowan: more or less yeah01:27
crimsunduring my tenure at big blue, we had peer mentors and external mentors, the difference being that the external ones had been there for decades while our peers perhaps a few years more then us01:27
crimsunthan us ^01:27
sistpotyryanakca: but there is a different problem with typespeed: it's already in universe (but a different version)...01:27
ryanakca...01:28
sistpotyryanakca: so maybe it would be a good idea to reuse debian's packaging as far as possible (to keep the diversion small)01:28
LaserJockcrimsun: we could have something like a MOTU Hopeful buddy system :-)01:28
micahcowanLaserJock: well, in that case, I think it was clear enough. I just wasn't sure if there was more to it than that.01:28
crimsunLaserJock: yeah, we should encourage that01:28
LaserJockmicahcowan: it could be, we don't have a lot of experience01:28
LaserJockcrimsun: well, I proposed something like that back in probably Oct. or Nov. of last year ;-)01:29
sistpotyryanakca: otherwise you might end up having it to maintain for ubuntu w.o. the possibility to go in sync ever again01:29
micahcowanLaserJack: basically, what I wanted to know is, given that I'm already on email, launchpad, etc, is there much value to my being Mentored?01:29
sistpotyryanakca: which would be some kind of waste of resources imo01:29
ryanakcasistpoty: lost me :)01:29
ryanakcasistpoty: go in sync?01:29
sistpotyryanakca: if the debian maintainer brings in 5.1, we can just sync that...01:30
LaserJockmicahcowan: perhaps01:30
sistpotyryanakca: or you could file a wishlist bug into debian bts with your updates to typespeed01:30
sistpotyryanakca: which means less work for you and the debian maintainer01:31
LaserJockmicahcowan: I think the initial idea was to just get people to the point where they could start asking good questions01:31
ryanakcaah01:31
micahcowanmicahcowan: ok. What's a good question? :)01:31
micahcowanDid I just address myself?01:31
micahcowanheh01:31
LaserJockmicahcowan: when will MOTU School sessions be offered and what is the next topic?01:32
ryanakcasistpoty: hmmm... "good idea to reuse debian's packaging"... does that mean copying the old control/changelog/copyright/rules?01:32
LaserJockmicahcowan: I'm having problems understanding debhelper01:32
sistpotyryanakca: basically yes... it means to change only things that absolutely need to be changed ;)01:32
micahcowanLaserJock: (doesn't that fall under packaging basics?)01:33
LaserJockmicahcowan: who do I talk to about getting a sync done01:33
LaserJockmicahcowan: that might be after they have had an initial read over of the Packaging Guide, for intsance01:33
LaserJockok, here's my use case and plan for mentoring:01:33
LaserJockA forums person who has a decent knowledge of Linux and Ubuntu wants to contribute back to the distro01:34
LaserJockbut they've never used IRC or mailing lists01:34
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LaserJockand they've only vaguely heard of MOTU01:34
LaserJockperhaps on a forum thread01:34
LaserJockthat's the use case01:34
LaserJocknow what I'd do is"01:35
LaserJock:01:35
LaserJockget them on the mailing lists01:35
LaserJockget them IRC if at all possible01:35
ryanakcasistpoty: kk01:35
LaserJockhave them read over the Ubuntu Packaging Guide01:35
crimsun(better yet, have them discuss the UPG with you)01:35
LaserJockask them about their interests to see what areas to plug into (bug fixing, one of the MOTU teams, etc.)01:36
LaserJocktalk about the general release process and what MOTUs do and how a package goes from a source tarball to a .deb on somebody's box (in generall terms)01:36
LaserJockI'd try to introduce them to people in the channel with like interests, etc.01:37
LaserJockand once I feel like they aren't floundering about trying to figure out what to do and can ask good questsions, they're off01:37
micahcowanLaserJock: sounds useful. It sounds like much of that won't apply to me at this point, but it sounds like a great idea.01:38
LaserJockI expect I'll always be in contact with them, but I'm *not* going to teach them everything about packaging (because we already have a mechanism for that) and I'm *not* going to turn them into my personal cronie/workhorse01:38
crimsunwe should have a clear subject line for e-mails, please01:39
LaserJockexcept for making them do all the MOTU Science merges/syncs, of course ;-)01:39
crimsunI get upwards of a thousand daily, and even with filtering it's a chore01:39
LaserJockcrimsun: which email?01:39
micahcowanLaserJock: I think you might add the bit about trying to plug them into specific teams (when applicable); introducing them to the group to the page.01:40
LaserJock-motu?01:40
crimsunwhenever that initial contact with prospective mentor is01:40
LaserJockoh, for Mentors?01:40
crimsunthat's why I can see multiple intro vectors01:40
crimsunsome people may feel more efficient hopping on irc and pinging you01:41
crimsunsome might send you an e-mail01:41
LaserJockmicahcowan: something that is a bit tough with that page is that I'm guessing a potential mentee won't really know a lot of what they need, the just want to help out01:42
ryanakcawhats the point of /debian/install?01:43
LaserJockbut don't know where to start01:43
LaserJockryanakca: installing files, man dh_install01:43
ryanakcaLaserJock: /debian/rules? Makefile? it runs fine without it... hmmm...01:43
LaserJockdebian/rules01:44
=== ryanakca debates with himself wether or not to include it
ryanakca:) debian/rules01:44
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crimsunLaserJock et al.: ok, I've made the adjustment to Mentors, so you'll probably want to add your active areas01:47
LaserJockk, I'm on it01:47
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LaserJockcrimsun: how would "MOTU Mentor:" be for a subject line tag?01:48
crimsunthat would be great as a suggestion01:48
crimsunI'm probably a corner case, but it would really help01:48
LaserJockwell, I doubt it hurts01:48
Fujitsu_Are you going to add waking hours there?01:53
LaserJockI doubt it, I think for most people they fluctuate too much to be useful01:53
LaserJockmaybe not though01:53
LaserJockwe could just put 24x7 for crimsun and be done with it ;-)01:53
Fujitsu_I've worked on a project where I had to work with somebody who was in France. His waking hours were the opposite of mine, and it was incredibly difficult to collaborate.01:54
ryanakcasistpoty: ok, fixed it so that I recycle debian's packaging, and I still don't get the patching part :(01:54
sistpotyryanakca: give me a sec...01:54
ryanakcasistpoty: kk, ty01:55
crimsunFujitsu_: most of my collaborators are, like Ubuntu devs, scattered across the globe. It makes for interesting sanity-scheduling.01:55
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Fujitsu_True, crimsun.01:56
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LaserJockyeah, that is something you have to get used to01:56
Fujitsu_I guess, I guess.01:56
sistpotyryanakca: it's simple for typespeed: don't use a patch system, just modify the files directly in the sourcepackage, since the debian maintainer does that as well.01:56
ryanakcaah, so I can ignore raphink's comment on patching :)01:57
Fujitsu_Urgh. That's not a good idea... Doesn't that break packaging guidelines?01:57
sistpotyryanakca: yes01:57
LaserJockFujitsu_: its a legitimate thing though01:57
LaserJockto both your comments ;-)01:57
crimsunit's actually aligned with our packaging guidelines.01:57
Fujitsu_Heheh. I was wondering that...01:57
Fujitsu_Is it?01:57
crimsunyes01:57
LaserJockif Debian doesn't use a patch system then you don't add one01:57
crimsunprecisely.01:58
Fujitsu_Yeah, but Debian should really use a patch system...01:58
crimsunand if upstream (Debian) doesn't use that patch system, then debdiff is mighty straight-forward for us.01:58
LaserJockFujitsu_: there isn't any Policy that I'm aware of that says you *have* to use a patch system01:59
sistpotyryanakca: however it's a good idea to also make patches from what you changed and store them in debian/ubuntu-patches, since that's quite convenient... but that's up to you01:59
micahcowanLaserJock: I thought it was nearly absolute in the packaging-from-scratch guidelines I read...01:59
micahcowanThough I have noticed a couple exceptions "in the wild", I think.01:59
ryanakcasistpoty: hmmm... dunno how... sounds complicated... I messed around with some things a lot... I'll pass :)01:59
ryanakcasistpoty: probably cause me trouble down the road though :(...02:00
ryanakcahmmm... do I run       sudo pbuilder update --distribution edgy --override-config     now?02:00
LaserJockmicahcowan: I would consider it "best practices" to make modifications as a patch that is stored in debian02:00
crimsunmicahcowan: if you're packaging from scratch, yes, it's highly recommended you use a patch system02:01
sistpotyryanakca: do you have an edgy pbuilder?02:01
LaserJockbut you could just apply the patch in debian/rules if you wanted to02:01
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ryanakcasistpoty: no... I'm running dapper... and dapper on pbuilder02:01
sistpotyryanakca: then you'll also need to modify cat /etc/pbuilder/apt.config/sources.list iirc (and then run update --distribution edgy --override-config)02:02
sistpotys/cat//02:02
micahcowanLaserJock: but not a requirement (for new packages)?02:03
ryanakcakk... so no more packaging for dapper or ??? (I'm getting really confused :) )02:03
LaserJockmicahcowan: I'm gonna say no, but highly recommended02:03
sistpotyryanakca: no, dapper is closed, all new stuff goes to edgy02:03
ryanakcakk02:03
sistpotyhm... I personally dislike any patch systems, since a VCS can do much better...02:04
micahcowan...so, in this context, it's not a new package, and already not based on patch system?02:04
Fujitsu_Just modify the source.02:04
ryanakcasistpoty: bash: cd: /etc/pbuilder/apt.config/: No such file or directory02:04
crimsunright, we follow Debian's practice.02:05
crimsunthe changes will end up in diff.gz anyhow.02:05
sistpotyhowever the problem is that usually only a small group of people has access to that VCS, and a sourcepackage doesn't contain the info from the VCS02:05
LaserJockmicahcowan: the Golden Rule of Ubuntu Packaging is : Minimize the delta between Debian and Ubuntu, you will appreciate it later :-)02:05
sistpotyryanakca: hm..., then just try the pbuilder update --distribution edgy (...)02:05
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crimsunI will complain bitterly that I hate that window between which dinstall runs and the mirrors haven't yet published the new source packages.02:06
micahcowanMaybe I've been misunderstanding. I was thinking "patch system" referred to diff.gz... and that the discussion was that versus a single tarball with changes included...02:06
crimsun(for Debian, that is)02:06
Fujitsu_micahcowan, no.02:06
micahcowanIs it a reference to several, separate patches, one for each new set of changes?02:07
LaserJockmicahcowan: no, patch system refers to patch helpers like dpatch, quilt, CDBS02:07
micahcowanoh... okay.02:07
crimsunmicahcowan: diff.gz is always present for such practices. The issue is whether one uses a system to manage patches that you'd place in debian/patches/ or whether you'd apply them directly without keeping them in that directory.02:07
LaserJockkeeping things in debian/ is nice02:08
Fujitsu_LaserJock, it makes things neat not having a delta outside debian/... So yes.02:09
micahcowanwhat's the reasoning behind that: the security of knowing that if you're not looking in debian/ it's highly probably that the code you're looking at is original from upstream?02:09
crimsunnot so much debian/ but inside the diff.gz.02:10
sistpotyno... the reason is that you can annotate patches and differentiate on what change does what if you have a patch system02:10
LaserJockalso it makes it easier to version control the packaging02:10
micahcowancrimsun: but you'll have a diff.gz, regardless of whether you use patching system or not (hopefully), yes?02:10
LaserJockyou can just make a bzr branch out of the debian/02:10
crimsunmicahcowan: yes. It's for maintenance.02:11
micahcowanAh! Instead of branching the whole damn thing. Gotcha.02:11
Fujitsu_It makes it a lot lot easier to do merges if the patches are logically seperated.02:11
Fujitsu_Like I discovered yesterday with a couple of packages.02:11
ryanakcasistpoty: do I need to create a Desktop file for typespeed? my guess is no... but I'm not very good at guessing :)02:12
crimsunbzr is darned nice, too.02:12
sistpotyryanakca: it's nice to have one, but not essential02:13
Fujitsu_It's good to have one, ryanakca. A lot of Ubuntu deltas are exclusively .desktops.02:13
LaserJockyeah, but that's not good either :(02:13
micahcowanDoes bzr have a relation to ubuntu?02:13
micahcowan(above CVS/SVN/etc?)02:13
ryanakcakk02:13
Fujitsu_micahcowan, uh, yeah. Both sponsored/developed by sabdfl.02:14
LaserJockmany Ubuntu devs favore bzr as well02:14
Fujitsu_And rightly so.02:14
Fujitsu_It's great :D02:14
LaserJockand Launchpad has some support for bzr02:15
Fujitsu_Some? I'd say a lot.02:15
sistpotymaybe I'M still thinking to erm centralized for bzr *g*02:15
Fujitsu_Hehehe.02:15
LaserJockwell, it's not for everything, IMO02:15
Fujitsu_It's for a lot of things.02:16
Fujitsu_I prefer SVN for my own stuff in most cases.02:16
zulgrr..02:16
LaserJockI prefer bzr for local stuff and svn for remote02:16
micahcowanIs there much reason for me to /not/ continue to use SVN for my own packaging, assuming I get to that point at some time?02:16
Fujitsu_I prefer the other way.02:16
ryanakcaI take it a desktop file is debian/Desktop    ?02:17
LaserJockbzr is just waaay to slow for me remotely, plus it's got some nastiness with DNS lookups02:17
Fujitsu_No.02:17
crimsunmicahcowan: my mantra is use whatever fits.02:17
Fujitsu_debian/whatever.desktop02:17
micahcowancrimsun: sounds reasonable. :)02:17
crimsunthat means I have cvs, svn, hg, git, and bzr installed02:17
LaserJockI just installed cvs today :-)02:18
crimsunwhat a PITA when the syntax starts contorting02:18
Fujitsu_Urgh. CVS.02:18
micahcowancrimsun: hm. I hope I never find myself in that situation...02:18
LaserJockgnome is converting to SVN but they had a problem so they went back to CVS until the get the bugs worked out02:18
LaserJockbut launchpad converts everythin to bzr anyway ;-)02:19
LaserJockbut it takes forever to branch so I just use CVS02:19
crimsunl02:19
crimsunerr02:19
jsgotangcogit is interesting02:23
crimsunhmm, this can't be good.   "Permission denied (publickey)" when using bzr checkout02:24
FujitsuHmm. From where?02:24
crimsunwhoa, this is all krunk.02:25
crimsunwell, that was from: bzr checkout sftp://~crimsun@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/alsa-utils/debian/02:25
jsgotangcolol can't even get from your own branch huh02:26
ryanakcawhat's "Name[xx] =Kfoo" in *.desktop... theres allready "Name=Kfoo"...02:26
crimsunbut ``bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/alsa-utils/debian/'' fails, too, with "bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock: transport is read only"02:26
ryanakcaalso... "GenericName"...02:26
jsgotangcotry bzr get02:27
sistpotyryanakca: see http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ for details02:27
LaserJockryanakca: it really has xx?02:28
ryanakcahttp://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ubuntu-kubuntu.html    yep02:29
LaserJockhmm, maybe I should have read that ;-)02:29
ryanakcalol02:29
sistpotyryanakca: xx is a language identifier like de for germany and so on02:29
ryanakcaah, ty02:30
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LaserJockmicahcowan: can you read over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors real quick and see if it's better?02:33
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micahcowanLaserJock: will do.02:36
micahcowanLaserJock: this seems significantly more informative.02:39
crimsunyay for PEBKAC02:39
micahcowanLaserJock: But the "slots" system went away?02:40
crimsun(for note, don't use ~crimsun when crimsun is correct.)02:40
LaserJockyay for wikipedia ;-)02:40
LaserJockmicahcowan: yeah, we decided against it02:41
LaserJockok, well I've got to get home and I see I've got some mentoring to do in my inbox :-)02:42
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zulhey Hobbsee02:43
Hobbseehi zul02:43
=== Fujitsu wonders if he can steal mentoring time from somebody.
_jaldharFujitsu: best to just ask your questions02:47
Fujitsu_jaldhar, probably.02:47
FujitsuBut I've got to go to class now. :(02:47
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zulHobbsee: going for ubuntu-dev tomorrow?02:48
Hobbseezul: yep :)02:48
Hobbseeassuming i'm awake02:48
zulHobbsee: heh...good02:49
ryanakcahmmm... I'm getting errors from pbuilder when building a package... errors, Makefile, debian/rules, debian/install at: http://pastebin.ca/90767         I'm looking for a shove in the direction... (not the answer) :)02:49
Hobbseezul: i'm kinda stuck if i *dont* get the upload rigts - i do lots of little fixes, and it's annoying to have to keep distracting people to get them to upload02:49
zulgood plan02:49
crimsunHobbsee: I highly doubt you won't be approved.02:49
zulyeah same here02:50
crimsunand I mean /highly/02:50
crimsunheck, you could probably go for -core-dev and be approved.02:50
Hobbseecrimsun: hehe, i'm tempted.  the stuff i'm playing with at the moment is in main.02:50
sistpotyryanakca: the directory debian/typespeed//usr/games isn't created yet... is it in debian/dirs?02:53
ryanakcasistpoty: umm... nope... add "usr/games" to debian/dirs?02:54
sistpotyryanakca: yep, that should solve it... dh_installdirs will create all dirs in debian/dirs.02:55
Hobbseeh sistpoty02:55
sistpotyhi Hobbsee02:55
ryanakcaif I'm using debuild, do I need to add "mkdir -p po" and "XGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext sh admin/cvs.sh extract-messages" to the end of the install rule ?03:01
ryanakcanevermind... stupid question... I looked in debian/control :)03:02
ryanakcaI'me getting these errors http://pastebin.ca/90781 with those two lines of code at the end of the install rule03:03
Hobbsee#03:04
HobbseeXGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext sh admin/cvs.sh extract-messages03:04
Hobbsee#03:04
Hobbseesh: admin/cvs.sh: No such file or directory03:04
Hobbseeryanakca: i'd imagine that admin/cvs.sh never was there to start with, or got removed in clean.03:04
sistpotyryanakca: typespeed is no kde package, no need to update the translation (and also no means to do that)03:05
sistpotybtw.: I only got a score of 440 right now... I guess I'm getting tired *g*03:06
ryanakcaHobbsee: no... never was there...03:09
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Hobbseeryanakca: that's why then :P03:10
ryanakca:)03:10
=== Hobbsee is really AFK now.
Hobbseeoh good, i'm downloading the package i modified a few days ago :)03:11
ryanakcahrrrm... I thought you were "really" AFK now :P03:11
ryanakcasistpoty: update... hasn't been translated yet :(03:13
ryanakcasistpoty: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/typespeed/+translations03:14
ryanakcasistpoty: anything I can do about it?03:16
sistpotyryanakca: not sure about rosetta...03:18
ryanakcayou aren't talking about manual translation... are you?03:19
ryanakcaor is there some other tool available?03:19
sistpotyryanakca: yes, I am.03:19
sistpotyryanakca: but you should leave the XGETTEXT="..." from debian/rules, since otherwise you'd have to write some means to import from rosetta to typespeed yourself03:20
sistpotyryanakca: that command is pretty specific for kde package iirc03:20
ryanakcahmmm... kk...03:21
ryanakcawell... its a shell command... not kde... hmmm... now that I think of it... XGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext      kde-xgettext is useless... I'll look at the source of some command line scripts03:24
=== sistpoty is now off to bed
sistpotygn8 everybody03:32
Hobbseenight sistpoty03:32
sharmsnight03:34
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Hobbseeer, what was that?04:04
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LaserJockhi Hobbsee! I'll try to be around for the TB meeting tomorrow to cheerlead04:24
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Hobbseehi Kyral04:58
KyralThat04:58
Kyralwas04:58
Kyralfscked up04:58
LaserJockKyral: you maintaining easychem in Debian still?04:58
KyralTechnically04:58
Kyralhasn't been much to maintain lol04:58
Kyralonly bug reported was a typo04:58
LaserJockthere's an ubuntu patch I believe04:59
Kyralmkay...?04:59
KyralHehe I haven't used a PBuilder in months04:59
HobbseeKyral: hah.  havent you seen my disconnects this morning?04:59
KyralHobbsee: no the disconnects were MY doing04:59
Kyralas in reboots04:59
Hobbseeah04:59
KyralI was getting my soundcard to come back suddenly05:00
Kyraloddly enough it suddenly picked up the DISABLED onboard05:00
Kyralso I went to BIOS and flipped the option to "AUTO" and it picked up my soundcard instead lol05:00
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crimsunKyral: gotta love bios.05:19
Fujitsucrimsun, can I please have some syncs confirmed?05:28
crimsunI'm cleaning up a bzr push failure, so I may not respond right away05:29
crimsunjust list the bug #s05:29
FujitsuOK.05:30
FujitsuNo problem:05:30
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Fujitsu#53223, #53315, #53316, #53317, #5331805:30
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bluefoxicyis anyone packaging tracker?05:33
LaserJockwhat?05:34
LaserJockoh05:34
LaserJockI have no idea05:34
LaserJockgrrr, OS X is not treating me well tonight05:39
bluefoxicyhttp://www.gnome.org/~jamiemcc/tracker/DEB/05:39
bluefoxicydoes that say 0ubuntusomething?05:39
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LaserJockthe nautilus one yeah05:40
=== bluefoxicy wonders where the source of the other .deb is
crimsunwow, there has to be a better way than manually deleting all these knit subdirs.05:42
crimsuntodo, read bzrlib05:42
=== LaserJock is trying not to chuck emacs out the window :/
=== bluefoxicy usually uses vi
bluefoxicyI like, open a terminal every time I need to edit a text file.05:47
crimsunwin, bash for () + scp -b05:47
LaserJockwha?05:48
crimsunI had 110 knit subdirs to delete05:49
crimsun210 rather05:49
LaserJockyikes05:49
crimsunsince I haven't read bzrlib's docs, I erased them using a scp batchfile05:49
=== bluefoxicy tests trackerd
bluefoxicy"Once you have installed Tracker and have some indexed contents, you should now compile Nautilus (ver 2.13.4 or higher) which should auto detect that tracker is installed and automatically compile in tracker support."05:51
bluefoxicy....... whoa.  I guess GNOME likes tracker.  Oh wait the source is hosted on gnome.org no wonder.05:51
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Gloubiboulgahello Universe06:18
LaserJockhi Gloubiboulga06:18
Gloubiboulgahello LaserJock :)06:19
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GloubiboulgaI like the new MOTU/Mentors wiki page :)06:55
sharmsyeah that is a great idea06:57
nixternalsuch a great idea that you guys are in the -school channel ;)06:58
=== nixternal waits
Gloubiboulgawell, the -school chan exists for MOTU school sessions, but the every-day-chan is this one I think06:59
nixternalya, i was just pokin' some fun07:00
nixternali am staying in the -school chan, just in case someone starts teaching, i dont' want to miss anything07:00
Gloubiboulga:)07:00
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FujitsuThanks for all that, crimsun.07:55
crimsunnp.07:55
Hobbseehi all07:55
FujitsuHi Hobbsee.07:56
Gloubiboulgahello Fujitsu, crimsun, Hobbsee :)07:56
Hobbseehi crimsun, Fujitsu, Gloubiboulga07:56
crimsunhi Gauvain07:57
FujitsuHi, Gloubiboulga.07:57
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imbrandoncrimsun, got a moment to explain something to me about merges ?08:24
imbrandonor busy, if so i can wait to some other time no biggie08:24
crimsunsure, sec08:24
imbrandonkk08:24
crimsunimbrandon: hi.08:28
imbrandonheya , ok08:28
imbrandonthe on MoM left with my name on it is here http://merges.ubuntu.com/i/icewm/REPORT08:28
imbrandonand08:28
imbrandoni just had a question as to WHY its on MoM08:28
imbrandonbecouse the report says no errors08:28
imbrandongenerated, is it just for sanity check or am i missing something08:29
crimsunimbrandon: it's on MoM because there's a newer Debian version available that hasn't been merged08:30
imbrandonso in other words I should grab08:30
imbrandongenerated: 1.2.26-2ubuntu108:30
imbrandon    icewm_1.2.26-2ubuntu1.dsc08:30
imbrandon    icewm_1.2.26.orig.tar.gz08:30
imbrandon    icewm_1.2.26-2ubuntu1.diff.gz08:30
crimsun(or overridden by a sync)08:30
imbrandonand build and sanity check it08:30
crimsunyes. Remember you created a Ubuntu delta by adding the dh_iconcache(1) stuff.08:30
imbrandonhrm ok , so a sync ?08:30
crimsunno, a merge.08:30
imbrandonright right, ok so grab those file i listed and build / snity check08:31
imbrandonsanity08:31
Hobbseeimbrandon: yeah, tha'ts the idea.  did it use cdbs?08:31
crimsunuse the grab-merge.sh script08:31
imbrandonyea08:31
Hobbseeimbrandon: did it use debian/cdbs/1/kde.mk?08:31
imbrandonHobbsee, honestly i dont rember but i think so, i will have to look08:31
imbrandonbut yea i know its in kde.mk now08:32
Hobbseeimbrandon: hehe, yeah.  you're not expected to remember it all off the top of your head08:32
imbrandonhehe08:32
nixternalhey crimsun show imbrandon and Hobbsee your new ponies!!!08:32
imbrandonnew ponies ? heh08:33
crimsunwha? I have new ones?08:33
crimsunremember I blacklisted that Web site many hours ago08:33
nixternalyou know which ones im talking about08:33
nixternallol08:33
nixternalimbrandon: http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/horses/index.html08:36
imbrandonheh crimsun did you see my default wallpaper proposal for edgy ? http://www.buntudot.org/people/~imbrandon/screenshots/ponies1.png08:38
crimsunpretty, but it won't fly08:41
imbrandonlol no it was more of a joke ;P08:42
crimsunyour screenshot is obviously outdated. You need to be running Edgy!08:42
imbrandonhahah yea i'm on edgy, but the ss is oldish08:42
crimsunI know, I'm joking of course08:42
imbrandonSysinfo for 'voyager': Linux 2.6.17-5-686 running KDE 3.5.3, CPU: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.93GHz at 2933 MHz (5874 bogomips), HD: 32/182GB, RAM: 607/1003MB, 112 proc's, 1.49h up08:42
nixternalimbrandon: that wallpaper is horrid08:42
nixternalmy eyeballs just burnt right out of my sockets08:42
crimsunshush, everyone needs zomgponies.08:43
imbrandonnah it got lots of votes on -art ML ;P08:43
nixternalwhat is that #ubuntu-blind-art08:43
crimsunmy niece will be very displeased to know that she's considered blind ;)08:43
nixternalrofl08:43
imbrandons/zomgponies/z0mgp0niez kthxbye/g08:44
imbrandonheh yea my daughter loves my little ponies too08:44
nixternali couldn't begin to tell you what my daughter would say if that wsa my screeny08:44
imbrandonshe just turned 1 a few days a go so not a real kubuntu user yet though ;)08:44
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imbrandonshhhhh she's back08:45
imbrandonheya Hobbsee ( looks arround the room )08:45
Hobbseehi imbrandon08:46
Hobbseehehe08:46
Hobbseei am, yes.08:46
Hobbseeannoying wifi card.08:46
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FujitsuGloubiboulga, could you look at another couple of merges for me?09:17
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hereticianAny MOTU Mentors around?09:18
GloubiboulgaFujitsu, sure, but I'd like to update a package first :)09:18
crimsunsure, what's up?09:18
Fujitsuhttp://people.ubuntu.com.au/~fujitsu/merges, the 4 in the outstanding section need checking and uploading.09:18
nomedhi all09:18
FujitsuGloubiboulga, whenever you have time :)09:18
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GloubiboulgaFujitsu, added on my TODO list ;)09:19
Gloubiboulgahey nomed :)09:19
Hobbseehi Gloubiboulga09:19
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hereticianSo.. What archive are you talking about crimsun? :P09:21
crimsunthe Ubuntu archive, ala http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/09:22
imbrandoncrimsun, have time to upload a merge http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2725 ( its that icewm package )09:22
crimsunimbrandon: queued.09:22
imbrandoncrimsun, thanks09:22
crimsunheretician: essentially, just pick a package from http://packages.ubuntu.com/09:23
hereticianLaserJock was right about this being too much at once for me lol.. This is really hard to get all of this stored into my itty bitty brain :P09:23
crimsunthere's no need to try and get it all at once09:23
imbrandonheretician, yea just try bits at a time, i've been working 2+ months trying to get packing exactly right09:24
imbrandon;)09:24
hereticianI dont know if i've caught the complete concept of it yet09:24
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imbrandonactualy a bit more but 2+ months head on09:24
imbrandonheh09:24
carthik_It'd be nice to have a "how to identify syncs" and/or "how to merge packages" session at the MOTU School...09:25
crimsunimbrandon: did you test-build at least?09:25
imbrandoncrimsun, yup09:25
hereticianYes it would09:25
imbrandondident install and test but i build in pbulder09:25
hereticianOr a "Packaging 101" would work09:25
crimsunimbrandon: it's good practice to test it, too :-)09:26
imbrandoncrimsun, would you like me to install it in a chroot and test ? ok np, will do09:26
carthik_I promise I will make it into a guid/tutorial, complete with archived copies of the files we used in the session to learn, so up-and-coming vols can always practice with those09:26
hereticianWho usually teaches the sessiosn?09:27
hereticiansessions*09:27
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imbrandonmentors afaik09:27
=== heretician glances at crimsun
crimsunheretician: no sessions yet09:28
hereticianDoes apt-get source work with these packages crimsun?09:28
crimsunheretician: yes.09:28
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hereticianDoes apt-get source work with most packages a MOTU would be packaging?09:29
crimsunsure, I could do a how-to merge/sync09:29
hereticianI need a how-to merge, i dont even know what syncing is.09:29
crimsunwe can plan one for this weekend, since this week I'm out for $work09:29
Hobbseeheretician: packaging 101, there was a thing on how to use debhelper, and what the bits all meant, in MOTU school a while ago09:29
hereticianit seems that every command needs another to work with it09:29
crimsunheretician: apt-get source requires that the package already be in Ubuntu archives.09:29
hereticianOh09:30
Hobbseeheretician: yes, apt-get source does, as long as you're on the same release as what you're intending to package.    And assuming someone else has actually packaged the app you're trying to upgrade/fix09:30
hereticianHow do you get the source without it?09:30
Hobbseeheretician: download the .tar.gz09:30
crimsunheretician: so if you're trying to package something brand new that's not in the Ubuntu archive, it [apt-get source]  won't work09:30
hereticianDidnt know the source was in there09:30
hereticianwait yes i did09:30
heretician./src?09:30
crimsunheretician: very quickly, let's say that Hobbsee writes a KDE program called kponies.09:31
Hobbseehaha09:31
crimsunheretician: she's what we call "upstream" [or to be clearer, "upstream upstream"] 09:31
Hobbseeyeah yeah, sure...09:31
crimsunheretician: now let's say imbrandon wants to package kponies for Kubuntu09:32
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carthik_crimsun, seriously, if you will do it, I will attend and write it up - can we set a date this weekend and announce it? (please)09:32
crimsunheretician: since kponies's source isn't in Kubuntu yet, he would have to download the tarball (kponies-1.0.0.tar.gz) from Hobbsee's Web site09:32
crimsuncarthik_: I'll write something to -motu before I leave work shortly09:32
hereticianthis is alot better than these guides.09:33
imbrandonokie let him finish ;)09:33
carthik_sure, thanks (sorry)09:33
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crimsunheretician: imbrandon will then go through the packaging process (some variation of what's described in the Packaging Guide for KDE) to generate what we call a "source package", which will be the tarball that he downloaded from Hobbsee's Web site (renamed to kponies_1.0.0.orig.tar.gz), any differences from it containing Kubuntu modifications (called kponies_1.0.0-0ubuntu1.diff.gz), a list of the changes made to the source (kponies_1.0.09:36
crimsunheretician: the Packaging Guide describes what each component of the source package is09:36
crimsun(so I'll refer you to that)09:36
crimsunheretician: now because imbrandon doesn't have upload privileges to the Ubuntu repository (which is the same for Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu), he'll place his newly packaged kponies on REVU (http://revu.tauware.de/)09:37
crimsunheretician: then he'll politely pester^H^Hask a few MOTU to review his kponies package09:38
Hobbseehaha.  pester, yes09:39
crimsunheretician: they'll review it with him, and once it meets a basic set of guidelines and they're happy with it, they'll "advocate" (approve) it. It takes two advocates to upload new packages to the Ubuntu archive.09:39
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crimsunheretician: once the new package is uploaded to the Ubuntu archive, the ftp admins will examine it and hand-approve it.09:40
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crimsunheretician: you might be wondering how stuff ends up in main, universe, or multiverse. By default everything is NEW/accepted into universe.09:40
crimsunheretician: if there's a specific reason a source package needs to end up in multiverse, which is normally licensing issues, the ftp admins set a server-side override for multiverse (instead of the universe default).09:41
crimsunheretician: stuff that ends up in main normally needs to be a dependency of something already in main and must have already passed an even more rigourous inspection.09:42
crimsunheretician: in any case, once the ftp admins accept the new source, the build machines (buildds) create binary packages, and every hour newly built packages are published and synced to the world-wide mirrors you know of.09:44
crimsunheretician: in a nutshell, that's the first part of the new package lifecycle.09:44
crimsunheretician: the less glamourous parts are keeping the package current, responding to bug reports, fixing bugs and uploading fixed versions, etc.09:45
hereticianHow do I obtain orig.tar.gz and diff.gz files from the tar.gz?09:46
crimsunheretician: that's the process of generating a Debian [or Ubuntu]  source package09:46
crimsunheretician: the Packaging Guide describes several ways of doing that09:47
crimsunheretician: namely you can either generate it by hand by creating the necessary debian/{control,copyright,rules,...} file, or by using an entry tool like dh_make, or by creating a skeleton and relying on debhelper and a build/patch system like cdbs, quilt, and so on to handle the nitty gritty09:49
hereticianautobuild would be a build system correct?09:50
hereticianand uh.. checkinstall being an install system?09:50
imbrandoncrimsun, icewm seems to install and run fine, with all the major bits working, i dont use it day to day so i dont know what all needs testing extensively but all the main components seem to be working fine ( ie menus etc )09:50
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crimsunimbrandon: ok, uploaded.09:51
Hobbseeheretician: Checkinstall is Extremely Evil (tm)09:51
imbrandoncrimsun, thanks09:51
imbrandoncheckinstall != not good way to distibute packages09:51
hereticianHobbsee: Yup, so is Alien from what ive heard (from you! :P)09:51
hereticianBah09:52
Hobbseeheretician: yeah, true.09:52
hereticianSome people tell me to get it some people tell me not to09:52
crimsunheretician: autobuild is a build system, yes. Checkinstall is a rudimentary way for people to generate packages for their own systems.09:52
Hobbseeimbrandon: um, you sure on that?09:52
StevenKAlien is less evil than checkinstall09:52
Hobbseejust a little09:52
StevenKBut not much.09:52
imbrandonHobbsee, sure on what ?09:52
hereticianOh, dont want that then09:52
hereticianis cdbs a patch system?09:52
Hobbseeimbrandon: on checkinstall being not equal to not a good way to distribute packages09:52
imbrandoncdbs is common debian build system09:53
crimsunheretician: my personal take is that once you learn the preferred ways of packaging, checkinstall is fairly useless to you.09:53
imbrandonohh lol Hobbsee09:53
Hobbsee:P09:53
hereticianWhat is the most preferred? Or easiest?09:53
hereticianTo generate those files09:53
hereticianAnd such09:53
imbrandonheretician, prefered is not the easiest ( dh_make ? )09:54
crimsunheretician: there are two answers: if it's a Debian package already (ones we sync and merge from our upstream, Debian), then we use what the Debian package uses.09:54
crimsunheretician: if it's brand new package that you are creating that doesn't already exist in Debian, then you're free to use any of plain debhelper, cdbs, etc.09:54
hereticianHow can you tell the different?09:55
crimsun(so no, we don't use alien or checkinstall to create packages that are uploaded to the Ubuntu archive)09:55
crimsunheretician: for existing Debian packages, the difference is recognisable in the debian/ infrastructure09:56
StevenKIt's easy to check if they were generated by checkinstall or alien, because they suck and don't think things in the Ubuntu/Debian way.09:56
crimsun(StevenK is one of the luminaries, since he wrote a tool to check Whether Things Suck)09:56
imbrandonhehe09:57
imbrandonalien saved be from packing debootstrap on suse though ;)09:57
imbrandonalien --to-rpm .... ;P09:57
StevenKI so didn't.09:57
=== StevenK denies everything.
hereticianSo are there guides out for dh_make?09:58
crimsunheretician: yep. There's even one in the Ubuntu Packaging Guide.09:58
imbrandonheretician, package guide covers it a bit09:58
hereticianWhich Ubuntu Packaging Guide?09:59
hereticianI have about 4 different ones so far09:59
imbrandon!packageguide09:59
ubotuI know nothing about packageguide - try searching http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu09:59
imbrandonerr09:59
imbrandonhold on lol09:59
crimsunthe one accessible via help.ubuntu.com or System> Help> System Documentation09:59
imbrandon http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C10:00
Hobbseehehe @ StevenK and trying to deny everything10:00
hereticianAhh cool thats the one im on right now10:01
Hobbsee!packagingguide10:01
ubotuThe packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources10:01
Hobbsee!packageguide is <alias> packagingguide10:01
ubotuI'll remember that10:01
Hobbsee!packageguide10:01
ubotuThe packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources10:01
Hobbseegood.10:01
imbrandondoh i was typin that lol10:01
carthik_!packaging10:01
carthik_that worked in a PM a moment ago...10:02
imbrandon!packaging <alias> packagingguide10:02
Hobbsee!packaging is <alias> packagingguide10:02
carthik_still works in a PM... wicked10:02
ubotupackaging is already known...10:02
Hobbsee!packaging10:02
ubotuThe packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources10:02
carthik_there, ubotu - you tease...10:02
imbrandon!-packaging10:02
Hobbseeinteresting.10:02
hereticianHow do you tell what type of package you should make it? Type of package: single binary, multiple binary, library, kernel module or cdbs?10:02
heretician(for dh_make10:03
hereticiandh-make )10:03
crimsunheretician: depends on what the source tarball generates.10:03
heretician.dsc?10:03
crimsunheretician: normally, if you're not sure, choose single binary10:04
crimsunheretician: as you gain familiarity with packaging, you'll know which "type" your specific source will use10:04
crimsunheretician: when you submit your package to REVU, people will help you in getting the finer points down10:05
=== heretician submits his perfectly packaged hello application to REVU :P
crimsunhehe10:06
hereticianGuess its written in Single Binary hehe//10:06
Hobbseehas anyone else looked at the horrible amount of uninstallable packages in edgy at the moment?  it's quite horrific!10:06
hereticianHow do I change the default maintainer name for dh_make? I'd rather it not be my full name, but my alias10:06
=== imbrandon writes a kdialog app called kponies and puts Hobbsee's name on it
Hobbseeheh10:07
Hobbseeimbrandon: you dont have my key, nor my passphrase10:07
imbrandonHobbsee, doh10:07
hereticianThats something else ive been trying to learn10:07
hereticianGPG Keys and stuff..10:07
hereticianDont know where to start though lol10:07
imbrandonheretician, there is a great howto on the wiki about gpg keys10:07
hereticianAlthough it seems that all of the experienced packagers have one10:07
hereticianor two10:07
hereticianFor beginners?10:08
imbrandonyup10:08
imbrandon!gpg10:08
crimsunHobbsee: I think it's rather poetic and beautiful, actually. It keeps the [insane]  users on their feet. =] 10:08
ubotugpg is the GNU Privacy Guard.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto10:08
Hobbseecrimsun: hmmm?10:08
Hobbseeheretician: you need to use your full name for packages.10:09
crimsun(uninstallable packages)10:09
StevenKYou don't need to. It's recommended.10:09
StevenKOther people might also shoot you if you don't.10:09
hereticianEr10:09
hereticianhow about my default email address?10:09
imbrandonor take your ponie ride tickets away ;)10:09
hereticianbecause it says heretician@unknown10:09
imbrandonheretician, that comes from username @ local computer name10:09
Hobbseecrimsun: ah yes.  the current count is 1760 or something.10:10
Hobbseei think10:10
StevenKOr the env var $DEBEMAIL10:10
imbrandonStevenK, NICE /me dident know that10:10
imbrandonexports that now10:10
crimsuncarthik_: actually dholbach is slated to cover that .. on the 12th10:10
crimsun(which is past)10:11
hereticianso i just change local computer name to @gmail.com?10:11
Hobbseeoh good, it's nowhere near that high, i'm just searching wrong.10:11
imbrandonheretician, nah i would add export DEBEMAIL = <email>10:11
imbrandonto bashrc10:11
hereticianer10:11
crimsuncarthik_: ok, I see, that date is actually when the topic was suggested/created10:11
hereticianyeah10:11
=== StevenK lalas quietly.
hereticiani probably would if i knew how10:11
hereticianCare to share your knowledge, imbrandon:)10:12
imbrandonnano ~/.bashrc and add " export DEBEMAIL = bal@blah.com "10:13
Hobbseehehe.  i think you're being ignored there, StevenK10:13
imbrandonlogout and login10:13
StevenKimbrandon: Bah!10:13
imbrandonheh10:13
StevenKimbrandon: Close all terminals and open them10:13
imbrandonbah ?10:13
StevenKLogging out and logging back in is slower.10:14
imbrandonohh yea or close terms ;)10:14
=== StevenK smacks imbrandon around with his Clue of L33t Debian Skillz[tm] .
imbrandonhehe10:15
Hobbseehehe10:15
Hobbseebah.  only 706 Uninstallable packages, on i386.10:15
crimsunbah, not broken enough then.10:15
hereticianWhat is the GPG Key comment usually used for?10:16
Hobbseecrimsun: someone with ppc should check - that'd be higher10:16
crimsunit's probably most broken on ia6410:16
Hobbseetrue10:16
Hobbseesarah@sarah:~$ "apt-cache unmet | grep Package | wc -l" is the command to check10:16
imbrandonHobbsee, my ppc is in SuSE land atm , i'll check later tonight10:16
imbrandon;)10:16
StevenKSuSE land? Is that being stuck in a small box with a little window?10:17
imbrandonlol yup10:17
imbrandon;P10:17
imbrandonactualy i was trying to look how kio slave sysinfo SHOULD look so i can get it right on kubuntu10:17
crimsuncarthik_: so in lieu of dholbach covering it in the near future, I'll coordinate with him. He may have other (better) plans.10:18
imbrandonheretician, one you have it right it should spit it out when you type " echo $DEBEMAIL " in konsole / terminal10:19
hereticianAlrighty thank ya10:21
hereticianSetting up my GPG atm :)10:21
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lucashi all10:23
Hobbseehi lucas10:24
hereticianWhats the secure gpg even used for?10:24
imbrandon'ello10:24
Hobbseeheretician: signing packages and emails, etc10:24
Hobbseeheretician: making sure that you are who you say you are10:24
imbrandonheretician, signing email , packages all kinds of things10:24
hereticianEr i mean the private gpg10:25
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lucasheretician: read about public key cryptography10:25
lucasyou always have a private key and a public key10:25
imbrandonone is public you give yo everyone ( via a key server ) one is private so you can sign things and no one else can with your name )10:25
hereticianThe key server i tried to connect to didnt work ;/10:25
lucasyou can use pgp.mit.edu or wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net10:26
hereticianDoes both hurt or?10:26
lucashurt ?10:26
lucasah, no10:26
lucasthey are automatically synchronized once in a while anyway10:26
imbrandonthey will propigate to each other i beleave10:26
hereticianCool10:27
imbrandonas will the ubuntu keyserver10:27
imbrandonetc10:27
hereticianinternal keyserver error10:28
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hereticianAny other way to send it lol?10:30
crimsunlucas: pong (much delayed)10:31
lucasah :-)10:32
imbrandonajmitch, ping10:33
lucascrimsun: could you have a look at the xastir package someday ?10:33
lucasyou were the last one to touch it, and it's way behind debian now10:33
hereticianI feel so... not-special now.. I'm numbered10:34
crimsunlucas: I'll do that today; if I haven't touched it by Thurs feel free to take it10:34
hereticianIt would be considered correct to go around saying that my name is A801596610:35
lucasI am wondering: I sort of missed the switch to this "packages have owners" policy. what were the reasons for it ?10:35
lucaswhy is it believe to be more efficient than global team maintenance ?10:35
crimsunlucas: packages don't have owners10:35
crimsunlucas: if you want to take it /right now/, by all means, go ahead10:35
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lucas(it was just a theoritical question)10:36
lucasok, but is it ok to work on merges of packages which are not "yours" without telling the other motu about it ?10:36
Hobbseelucas: so that people dont do the same work twice10:36
lucasif you base your work on an up to date list, I don't see how this could happen10:37
crimsunlucas: to avoid duplication, it's best to ping them.10:37
crimsunlucas: of course if you want to just go ahead with the merges, that's fine, too.10:38
lucasok10:38
crimsuna couple of last-touched haven't really "shown up"10:38
crimsunthey're probably just busy, in which case we'd go through the merges anyhow.10:38
lucask10:38
Hobbseelucas: iv'e seen it happen a few times - even with an up to date list, as the merges dont happen immediately10:39
Hobbsees/merges/syncs/10:39
lucasyup, but you can check for a bug10:39
=== Hobbsee tends to forget that, goes to request the sync, then goes "oh damn!"
crimsunI literally scan -changes prior to each work10:40
Hobbseeyeah.  i usually do that.  i just forget to check malone10:40
crimsunneed to scoot to work. tata.10:41
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dholbachgood morning11:11
Gloubiboulga_morning dholbach11:12
dholbachhey Gloubiboulga_11:12
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Arbiterpff... fglrx doesn't work with 2.6.1711:28
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Toadstool'morning everybody11:34
NthDegreehere's an unorthodox question11:37
NthDegreeif i made a package of gcc with SSP patched into it, could it be submitted to the universe?11:38
Arbiterslomo, ping11:38
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ArbiterNthDegree, gcc is a main component... if you want ssp patched into it i think you should ask a -core-dev11:39
MithrandirNthDegree: SSP is already enabled in edgy.11:39
NthDegreeMithrandir, SSP could be a backport in that case then right?11:40
NthDegreesince edgy is a little borked still11:41
Mithrandirit's non-trivial to backport, I'd say.11:41
NthDegreewell not really11:41
Mithrandirand useless unless you compile the whole distro with it.11:41
NthDegreeit's an important technology and would boost universe and dapper backports11:41
NthDegreealthough I didn't know edgy had it lol11:42
Mithrandiruh, you're aware that backports generally isn't used for compiling backports, right?11:42
NthDegreelol11:42
NthDegreei know what backports are made for, i know backports != BSD ports11:43
NthDegreebrb11:44
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slomoArbiter: pong12:15
Arbiterslomo, i'm going to work on libgimp-cil fixes12:16
slomoArbiter: ok12:16
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Arbitershould we add a strongname to the assembly?12:16
slomoArbiter: is it API/ABI stable? if not, no... if yes, you decide12:17
Arbiterit's not stable... as i told you yesterday12:17
slomothen you know the answer already ;) make it not strong named and don't install it into the gac12:18
Arbiterwell12:19
Arbiterslomo, i'll remove example plugins too (i think it's better)12:19
Arbiterhaving precompiled plugins it's not so useful...12:20
Arbiter(imho)12:20
slomoArbiter: put them into /usr/share/doc/$package/examples :) or if they're even marginally useful package them12:21
Arbiteruhm...12:21
Arbitermaybe it's better to put the sources of the plugins there...12:21
slomoright12:21
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kelmomoin all, moin siretart01:25
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cbx33hey SonOfAck01:31
SonOfAckhiya01:31
Arbiterooook... colorscheme package is fixed and builds in pbuilder01:36
cbx33Arbiter: cool01:37
Arbiteri need to upload the sources...01:37
cbx33upload, upload, did you fix the debian issues01:37
Arbiterwops01:38
Arbiteri need to make the man page01:38
Arbiter:/01:38
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cbx33good01:39
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Arbiterit's better to install ccache...01:44
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Arbitercbx33, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=272701:54
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jdmpikehow much overhead would it be to have a i686 repository?02:07
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Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, some files have a different copyright (gcs-debug.cc for example)02:11
Arbiterheh02:11
=== Arbiter updates...
Gloubiboulga_you need to add this in debian/copyright02:12
Arbitersure02:12
Gloubiboulga_and you can remove the last two lines in debian/copyright too02:12
Gloubiboulga_also, config.{sub,guess} should not appear in the .diff.gz02:12
Arbiterhm... ok02:13
slomoArbiter: look at how cdbs prevents this02:13
Gloubiboulga_let me check the build before uploading a new package ;)02:13
slomo(copying orig files to .cdbs-orig and moving back on clean)02:13
cbx33Arbiter: looks much better02:13
Gloubiboulga_hm, and maybe I'm wrong but I think that all build deps should be listed on 1 line02:15
Gloubiboulga_slomo, what do you say?02:15
ArbiterGloubiboulga_, only one line?02:15
Arbiterit's unreadable :P02:15
cbx33you don't have to read it02:15
cbx33generally02:16
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, yes, but it's grepable02:16
Arbiterow02:16
cbx33:p02:16
Arbiteri've found another copyright notice (Sun Microsystems)02:16
slomoGloubiboulga_: config.{sub,guess} are updated for this package as they should... but obviously this leaves the diff in the diff.gz later. cdbs works around this by making a backup of the original files and moves them back on clean02:18
Gloubiboulga_hm, debian/dirs is really needed? `make install` creates the dirs02:18
cbx33Gloubiboulga_: isn't it needed so that dh_install knows where to put things?02:18
Arbiterdebian/dirs <- deleted02:18
Arbiter;)02:19
Gloubiboulga_slomo, yes, I agree with that, I was asking you about the muliple lines for Build-Depends: (it wasn't clear I guess)02:19
=== Arbiter lunch
slomooh...02:20
Gloubiboulga_cbx33, dh_install will install files listed in a .install file, or files passed as arguments02:20
slomobuild-depends _must_ be one line02:20
Gloubiboulga_slomo, thanks :)02:20
slomoiirc lintian says it's an error anyway02:21
cbx33Gloubiboulga_: ok cool02:22
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, and having a manpage would be nice ;)02:25
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segfaultWhere can i see the deadline for uploading packages for edgy?02:46
Hobbsee!release02:47
ubotuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases02:47
Hobbseesegfault: ^02:47
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segfaultthanks, Sept. 7th.02:49
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segfaultanyone? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=221702:52
segfaultis there any way to speed up the revision process?02:53
Arbiter<Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, and having a manpage would be nice ;) <- check debian/colorscheme.102:58
Arbiter:P02:58
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, I checked, it's not there02:59
Arbiterwhat?02:59
Arbiterit's not represented in diff.gz?02:59
Gloubiboulga_nop03:00
Arbitermhmhmhm03:00
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Gloubiboulga_segfault, the distro is now edgy, and you could bump Standards-Version to 3.7.203:05
Gloubiboulga_segfault, and only 1 new changelog entry is enough I think :)03:05
ArbiterGloubiboulga_, i'm upload the updated package... it should be fine03:06
Arbiter*uploading*03:06
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, ok03:06
segfaultglo: yeah, but thats for dapper.i still havent updated it to edgy03:08
Gloubiboulga_segfault, updated packages now go into edgy03:09
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Gloubiboulga_you can setup an edgy chroot/pbuilder03:09
phanaticafternoon everyone03:09
Gloubiboulga_hello phanatic03:09
Arbitersegfault, or upgrade from dapper -> edgy :D03:10
phanatichi Gloubiboulga_03:10
Arbiter(like me)03:10
segfaultokay03:11
segfault:)03:11
segfaultanyone following webapps policy manual?03:12
segfaulthttp://webapps-common.alioth.debian.org/draft-php/txt/PHP-Policy-Manual-DRAFT.txt03:12
ArbiterUploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc03:14
Arbiterehm...03:14
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Arbiter"we have a problem"03:15
Arbiter:D03:15
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, you have to ping a REVU admin03:16
Arbiterraphink, ping03:17
Gloubiboulga_segfault, is this already part of the debain policy?03:17
raphinkhi Arbiter03:17
Arbiterraphink, hi.. i have a problem with revu03:17
Arbiter<Arbiter> Uploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc03:18
raphinkArbiter: I might not have time for it right now03:18
raphinkbut ask03:18
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quitewhat is the safest way for accessing ntfs partitions read/write and how safe is it actually?03:19
raphinkquite: please ask these questios on #ubuntu03:19
Arbiterraphink, it's an incomplete upload because of my unstable wi-fi connection :P03:20
raphinkI'll have a look Arbiter03:20
=== Arbiter hates ndiswrapper...
quiteraphink: it seems they don't know the answer03:20
Arbiterraphink, thanks03:20
raphinkArbiter: try again03:20
raphinkquite:  this is a dev channel03:20
raphinkask on the forums03:21
ArbiterUploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc:03:21
Arbiteryes!03:21
Arbiterthanks raphink03:21
raphink:)03:21
raphinkyou're weldcome03:21
raphinkwelcome03:21
Arbiter;)03:21
Arbiteri'll try to switch to native broadcom drivers after the upload...03:22
ArbiterGloubiboulga_, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2729... it should be fine now03:27
=== Arbiter tries bcm43xx drivers...
Arbiteri'll be back soon (hopefully)03:27
quiteraphink: please at least tell me, will edgy support ntfs rw access by default?03:28
Mithrandirquite: no, it won't.03:28
raphinkquite: no idea, never used windows on my machines ;)03:28
quiteMithrandir: cool, thanks03:28
Mithrandiror, I'd be very surprised if we turned it on, since it eats your file systems unless you're very careful.03:29
tsengMithrandir: there is talk of a 3rd gen driver that works03:29
tsengbut, its just coming into the light03:29
quiteMithrandir: it seems your info is outedated. read http://linux-ntfs.org/03:29
tsengnot the kind of thing we are going to throw in and ship03:29
quitetseng: knoppix does just that, or even more03:30
tsengknoppix isnt ubuntu03:30
kelmoquite: it has not proven to be stable, and it must be for something as popular and widespread as ubuntu03:30
quitetseng: knoppix i don't think edgy is supposed to be more "stable" than knoppix. not after the dapper disappointment, that is.03:30
tsengsigh03:31
tsengdon't troll me or I'll throw you out03:31
quitekelmo: something as popular and widespread as ubuntu released dapper, right?03:31
kelmoquite: you are proving to be full of hot air03:31
kelmogn803:31
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quitetseng: i am not trolling03:32
Toadstoolright...03:32
tsengyour tone was demanding from the very begining03:32
quitetseng: demanding? you mean my question?03:33
tseng_at least_ tell me03:33
quitetseng: i see, i only wanted it to sound like "then"03:34
quitetseng: "then please tell me..."03:34
quiteor something like it03:34
tsengwords are funny things, I'll let it go03:34
tsengplease move on without the 'knoppix is stable, dapper sucks' line of reasoning03:35
quiteactually i don't know how to make it less demanding03:35
quiteenglish is not my first language03:35
quitetseng: i don't even care about knoppix anyway03:36
quitetseng: anyway, i've just found this: http://linux-ntfs.org/ (the latest news) have you read this?03:36
quitetseng: or better use this link: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=23836054&forum_id=269703:37
Mithrandirquite: we're past the point where we put new upstream versions into Edgy, though.  (With a few exceptions, but still)03:38
quiteMithrandir: including the ntfs thing?03:38
quitetseng: just to make sure: doesn't "please" in "please at least tell me..." effectively reduce the demanding appearance of my question (caused by "at least")?03:39
Mithrandircorrect.  So it's probably something which can go into edgy+1, but not edgy.03:40
Toadstoolquite: anyway this would be a -devel question if we weren't in Upstream Version Freeze03:40
quiteMithrandir: that's too bad :(03:40
quiteMithrandir: it looks like an important improvement03:41
Mithrandirquite: we have to make some sacrifices in order to release on time.  That's how Ubuntu works.03:41
quiteMithrandir: why woulnd't simply replacing the packages be enough?03:41
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Mithrandirquite: it would require regression testing, for one.03:42
=== Arbiter is back
phanaticArbiter: just checking your new upload03:45
Arbiterthanks03:45
phanaticArbiter: check for new comment ;)03:54
Arbiter:)03:55
Arbiteri'll fix that03:56
Arbiterphanatic, config.{sub,guess}?03:56
phanaticArbiter: exactly03:57
Arbiterwell03:57
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Specso, there's a bug in a program (sobby 0.3.0-2), which causes it to not run, and it's been fixed in debian (sobby 0.3.0-3), there's a bug report already filed -- what else can I do? :)04:04
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lucaswait for edgy, probably ;)04:06
Specso it won't be fixed to the +0.0.0-1 version? :-/04:08
FunnyLookinHatDid anyone else get a kernel update today?  2.6.15-26?   I already had it installed and it just "updated" my kernel to it again today.04:08
FunnyLookinHatStrange package release...   : P04:08
slomoFunnyLookinHat: it was a security update04:09
FunnyLookinHatAhh ok.04:10
Arbiterphanatic, updated04:11
Arbiterhttp://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=273004:11
phanaticArbiter: looks okay to me. i just cannot advocate it :(04:12
ryanakcaaway04:19
Gloubiboulga_phanatic, I did it for you ;)04:19
phanaticGloubiboulga_: thanks :)04:20
Arbiterone more advocate before upload, right? :D04:22
phanaticArbiter: yeah04:23
phanaticit won't be difficult to get i think :)04:23
Arbiterphanatic, i can start a "call for advocates" :D04:24
phanaticArbiter: you need only one, so that will be easy :)04:24
Arbiter;)04:24
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Spechttp://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2731 advocate! advocate! :p05:04
ryanakcahmmm... I'm getting some funny errors when running pbuilder: http://pastebin.ca/91310     kindof like these:       warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; using uid of process (0)05:06
ryanakcalol05:06
ryanakcapackage still builds and all... just wondering about those errors/warnings... safe to ignore?05:07
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Arbiteruff... fglrx is broken with kernels >= 2.6.1705:08
Gloubiboulga_Spec, I think the '0.0' in sistpoty's comment was actually an example :)05:08
Gloubiboulga_you can use 1.1+CVS-<date>-0ubuntu105:09
Gloubiboulga_and the third paragraph of the copyright header is missing in debian/copyright05:10
Gloubiboulga_(with the FSF address :)05:10
Arbiteri *hate* fglrx05:11
Arbiteri *hate* ati05:11
Arbiterpfff :/05:11
SpecGloubiboulga_: there isn't any real version number for the program though -.-05:11
Gloubiboulga_not at all?05:12
Gloubiboulga_it's not been released yet?05:12
Gloubiboulga_your first upload version is 1.2, that's why I suggested the 1.1 version05:13
=== Arbiter fills a bugreport against the fglrx stuff...
Gloubiboulga_but if it has no version at all 0.0 is fine05:13
Specyeap, it's from cvs only in dev05:13
Gloubiboulga_ok05:14
ArbiterGloubiboulga_, uhm... a question (not related to packaging)05:14
Gloubiboulga_add the missing paragraph and you have my advocate :)05:14
Specmeh, my mini-dinstall isn't liking my edgy repo05:15
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, I'll try to answer ;)05:15
Arbiterwhere's the best place to submit bugs for edgy? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+bugs? :D05:15
Toadstoolnope05:15
Toadstoolhttps://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs05:15
Arbiterah ok, general bts05:16
=== Gloubiboulga_ hugs Toadstool
Toadstool;)05:16
Gloubiboulga_Arbiter, but you can tell the ubuntu version you use in your report :)05:16
Gloubiboulga_no, you *have to* :p05:16
Toadstoolindeed :)05:16
ArbiterGloubiboulga_, obviously05:17
ToadstoolArbiter: /distros/ubuntu/{dapper,edgy,random_name} is used by devs' as a milestone when they want a particular bug fixed in a particular release FYI05:18
HawkwindCan someone please tell me what the dput command is to upload to REVU ?  Seems I've lost the page that tells this and I've only done it once :(05:18
ArbiterHawkwind, dput -f revu *_source.changes05:19
SpecGloubiboulga_: where's the missing paragraph?05:20
Specwait, nevermind :-/05:20
Gloubiboulga_Spec, in debian/copyright05:20
Gloubiboulga_actually, it isn't in debian/copyright :)05:21
Speci know :)05:21
Specbut it will be :p05:21
Gloubiboulga_great05:21
Speci'm an idiot05:22
Specmy own repo doesn't automagically build src packages, i have to upload the binaries :-/05:23
Specstupid revu spoiling me05:23
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Toadstoolis bazaar.launchpad.net slow for you guys too?05:23
Arbiterbug 5335405:23
UbugtuMalone bug 53354 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.17 "[Edgy]  linux-restricted-modules-2.6.17 & xorg-driver-fglrx - fglrx kernel module is broken" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5335405:23
Arbiterdone :D05:24
Gloubiboulga_Toadstool, yes...05:24
Toadstoolthat's really annoying05:24
Specvery slow05:25
Toadstoolpushing the upstream branch for freevo took 10 minutes...05:25
Specit ends up going to launchpad?05:25
imbrandonHawkwind, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU?highlight=%28dput%2905:26
HawkwindArbiter: Thank you very much :)05:27
Arbiter:)05:27
Hawkwindimbrandon: Ahhh thanks.  Got it bookmarked now05:27
imbrandonnp05:27
imbrandonsiretart, ping05:28
Arbiterdo we have a comfortable tool for editing wiki pages?05:29
imbrandonArbiter, keyboard ;)05:29
Arbiterimbrandon, :Prrrr05:29
zulin other wrods no05:29
imbrandonheh05:29
Arbiterthe web interface is everything but comfortable :P05:29
SpecIs there a java-vim that can be embedded into wikis?05:30
imbrandonany revu admins arround ?05:30
Specor perhaps FCKeditor05:30
Arbiterin order to edit this page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates) i need to copy&paste the text in gedit, modify it and then re-copy&paste the text05:30
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Arbiter:P05:30
=== imbrandon would settle for a ctl+w nano type find
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Speci read the quit message :-/05:32
siretartimbrandon: huh?05:32
imbrandonsiretart, can you ( or tell me howot ) mark all my packages on revu archived, they have all ben uploaded05:33
siretartimbrandon: I'd suggest writing a python script, which does appropriate sql statements. seriously, thats missing functionality :(05:34
imbrandonvery true ;)05:34
Arbiteri need only one more advocate for colorscheme package... anyone interested? :D05:35
imbrandonso currently there is no way to dao it ?05:35
imbrandons/dao/do05:35
=== imbrandon grabs the brz branch for revu
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Spechow often does revu process it's queue?05:41
Arbiter5 min afaik05:42
Spechmm, it grabbed my username@hostname for my e-mail address, how do I fix this?05:43
Specd'oh, nevermind05:43
Gloubiboulga_Spec, advocated05:52
Speci have to upload a new version  :p05:53
Speci put my wrong e-mail ... i don't have an account on revu for @ubuntu.com, only for @gmail.com05:53
Gloubiboulga_that's not a problem, you can use your ubuntu.com address05:54
Gloubiboulga_and recover your passwd for it05:54
HawkwindIf there is already a 'xchat' listing on REVU that I uploaded for the last version that I built a month or so back, how do I get the new version to show up on REVU that I just uploaded about 20 minutes ago ?05:54
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Gloubiboulga_Hawkwind, it should be listed on REVU, are you sure that the upload worked?05:57
HawkwindGloubiboulga_: It said it did05:57
SpecGloubiboulga_: it couldn't recover a password for ubuntu.com address05:57
SpecGloubiboulga_: it was just blank ... so i reuploaded it as @gmail.com, now i can add comments, etc, and lintian doesn't think it's an NMU anymore05:58
HawkwindGloubiboulga_: http://pastebin.ca/9138705:58
SpecGloubiboulga_: care to advocate?05:58
Gloubiboulga_Spec, sure05:58
Gloubiboulga_Hawkwind, yes, it's uploaded but stuck in the incoming dir... you have to ping a REVU admin, I can't help you05:59
HawkwindGloubiboulga_: Ahhh05:59
HawkwindAny REVU admins around by chance that can do something with my xchat-2.6.6 packages by chance ?06:00
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Specif you know the password to a router (admin/admin), and you are practically given an IP (wifi/dhcp), it's legal to log in and do whatever pleases you, correct?06:04
sharms2I suppose to depends on your country06:04
HawkwindGloubiboulga_: How long does it stay in the incoming dir before it moves on or does it have to be manually pushed out ?06:07
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Gloubiboulga_Hawkwind, the cron job runs every 5 minutes06:08
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Gloubiboulga_it should be published already06:08
HawkwindHmmm, well it's been almost 30 minutes :(06:08
Gloubiboulga_maybe raphink can push it manually if he has time :)06:09
Hawkwindraphink: Ping06:09
LaserJockmorning MOTU world06:12
HawkwindHey there LaserJock06:12
Toadstoolheya LaserJock06:12
Gloubiboulga_hi LaserJock06:13
sharms2howdy LJ06:14
LaserJockhow is everybody doing today? busy, busy, busy I hope :-)06:14
Arbiter`heheheh moring... its 6:15 pm here :D06:14
Arbiters/moring/morning/06:15
LaserJockthen good evening to you06:15
Arbiter:D06:15
LaserJockslomo: hmm, I didn't realize we were supposed to archive after uploading. Thanks.06:16
Arbiterwho wants advocate this package? :D (http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2730)06:16
slomoLaserJock: ?06:17
LaserJockslomo: sorry, that was supposed to be to sistpoty06:17
LaserJockfor some stupid reason I associate your nick with his email address :(06:18
slomoLaserJock: np :)06:18
LaserJockeven though your email address is pretty clearly yours ;-)06:18
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raphinkHawkwind: what's the matter,06:30
Hawkwindraphink: I uploaded xchat 2.6.6 but it's not showing on the REVU page.  Gloubiboulga_ mentioned it's stuck in the incoming directory possibly or something06:31
raphinklet's see06:31
raphinkHawkwind: please make sure you used the -S -sa switches with debuild06:32
raphinkand upload again ;)06:32
raphinkso that you don't upload the deb ;)06:32
raphinkalright Hawkwind?06:34
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Hawkwindraphink: Okies.  Doing it now.  Thought I had used the -S -sa but I guess maybe I didn't06:35
raphinkno you didn't :)06:35
raphink;)06:35
HawkwindChecksum doesn't match for /home/hawkwind/debbuild/xchat_2.6.6-0ubuntu1.dsc06:36
HawkwindNow I'm getting that when I do dput06:36
Arbiterbut.. but... xchat 2.6.6?? why don't wait that the official debian maintainer updates the package?06:39
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HawkwindArbiter: If it's pointless for me to build it then I guess I will.  I was hoping to get it into the distro quicker rather than waiting on it to be done by the debian maintainer06:42
LaserJockhmm06:45
LaserJockthat's somewhat of a sticky situation06:45
LaserJockbecause if you put it into Ubuntu then we'll have to merge things later06:46
LaserJockfor things like that you might even be better off sending the Debian maintainer your package06:46
HawkwindHow can I find out who the debian maintainer is to send him the info ?06:47
imbrandonit should be in the debain/copyright of the package06:47
LaserJockrather debian/control06:47
imbrandonerr yea06:47
imbrandonsorry ;)06:47
imbrandonthanks LaserJock06:47
imbrandon;P06:48
LaserJockshesh, newbs ;-)06:48
imbrandonhahaha06:48
imbrandonhow go's it today LaserJock ;)06:48
HawkwindAhhh, that's the file I was looking for :)06:48
LaserJockimbrandon: fine, trying to not get distracted06:49
imbrandonheh06:49
LaserJockmy goal for today: make fink's emacs on OSX play nice06:49
imbrandonahh06:50
zuli dont know what to cringe about first emacs or osx :)06:50
=== imbrandon tried to make a osx konvo package
imbrandonfailed miserably06:50
LaserJockzul: just cringe at both06:50
LaserJockemacs works fine06:50
zulLaserJock: yeah that would be easier06:50
LaserJockbut when I install -el packages some of them are found when I start emacs06:51
LaserJockreally odd06:51
imbrandonzul, dont like osx ? hehe06:51
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zuli dont mind it...06:51
LaserJockbut if there is a superior open-source alternative ...06:51
=== imbrandon has ubuntu on vt7 suse 10.1 on vt8 and osx on vt9
cypher1imbrandon, cool!06:53
cypher1imbrandon, how did you do that ?06:53
imbrandonload ubuntu as the main os, load suse in a chroot ( install into a dir from the cd ) start a new x session and export display :1 for suse , then run mol ( ppc only ) and have it display osx on vt9 ;)06:54
imbrandonsemi simple ;P06:54
zuland you have too much time on your hands ;)06:55
imbrandonheh06:55
slomosemi simple and semi useful ;)06:55
cypher1imbrandon, and i guess too much disk space ;)06:55
imbrandonusefull to try to get things like kio-sysinfo from suse working on ubuntu and play media from itunes in osx ;)06:56
cypher1:)06:56
imbrandonso i guess usefull to me ;)06:56
cypher1yes i guess it will be useful for many06:56
imbrandonthat and the "cool" factor at lug meetings to have 3 os's run native on diffrent vt's ;)06:58
imbrandonlol06:58
imbrandons/"cool"/"geek"/g06:59
zuli know a guy at a lug who carry around car batteries around him for his VR stuff07:05
zulhe thought he was cool :)07:05
imbrandonheh07:05
mukundanyone who's committed to realising his/her dream is cool07:05
LaserJockspeaking of that, I wonder what jdub is up to07:06
mukundthat also reminds me of the breakfast joke07:07
mukundthe chicken was involved, while the pig was committed07:07
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cypher1has anyone faced any problem during 'debsign' during doing a 'sudo debuild -S' ?07:11
zulnope07:11
cypher1it is not asking for the secret key/passphrase07:12
sladencypher1: does GPG have your secret key07:12
sladencypher1: do you use ssh-agent?07:12
cypher1sladen, no i do not use ssh-agent07:12
LaserJockcypher1: why are you using sudo?07:13
cypher1LaserJock, is that the problem ?07:13
cypher1let me try without sudo07:13
sladencypher1: argh!  why are you using sudo to build something?!07:13
sladencypher1: either use fakeroot, or just let debuild use fakeroot automatically07:14
cypher1sladen, hmm debuild gave me error07:14
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sladencypher1: what error did debuild give you?07:14
LaserJockcypher1: general rule: you shouldn't use sudo for packaging07:14
cypher1sladen, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/1828107:16
cypher1LaserJock, but one of the option mentioned in the error by debuild is run as root07:16
sladencypher1: see the bit that says  "install the fakeroot package,"  ?07:16
cypher1sladen, yes i did see that but it also said "or run me as root!" in the end07:17
cypher1and i followed it07:17
cypher1sladen, i will now install fakeroot07:17
LaserJockyou picked the wrong side of the or ;-)07:17
sladenokay.  If somebody ever tells you to jump off a cliff (I mean run something as root), think lots and find the way that doesn't require doing that07:18
cypher1LaserJock, :D yes..07:18
cypher1sladen, :)07:18
tuxmaniaccypher1> are you following the Ubuntu packaging guide or Debain New maintainer guide only na?07:19
tuxmaniacLaserJock> wasssup?!!!!!!!!!!07:19
LaserJocktuxmaniac: neither, I think07:19
LaserJocktuxmaniac: hi dude07:19
=== tuxmaniac has been and is very tight for the next few weeks
tuxmaniacLaserJock> so whats up with you work. Anything interesting?07:20
=== tuxmaniac points out that bddebian has been missing for sometime
LaserJocknot so much, we are learning how to attach laser dyes to thin films (aka, 1 molecule thick) attached to glass07:21
LaserJockhmm, yes07:21
cypher1LaserJock, i followed Ubuntu packing guide.. probably i might have missed something07:21
tuxmaniacLaserJock> aah goody.. Sounds very interesting. Learning the theory or some practical stuff also?07:21
LaserJocktuxmaniac: all practical, we aren't a theoretical lab ;-)07:22
LaserJockwe stumble around ;-)07:22
=== tuxmaniac luvs to work in such a place
tuxmaniaccypher1> seems like you dont have a key created. have you got one?07:23
LaserJockcypher1: well I'm pretty sure I never said to run debuild using sudo and I think fakeroot should have been mentioned in there. Let me know if that isn't the case07:23
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cypher1tuxmaniac, yes even with fakeroot i got the error i am looking for what i had done wrong07:24
cypher1LaserJock, sure.. thanks07:24
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sladencypher1: what error are you getting now?07:30
sladencypher1: did you unpack the source using sudo?  (You shouldn't)07:31
ryanakcahmmm... I'm getting some funny errors when running pbuilder: http://pastebin.ca/91310     kindof like these:       warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; using uid of process (0)07:33
ryanakcapackage still builds and all... just wondering about those errors/warnings... safe to ignore?07:33
LaserJockI think so07:33
ryanakcaLaserJock: goodies...07:37
=== ryanakca uploads to revu
ryanakcaI uploaded typespeed to revu a couple of weeks ago, to reupload, dput -f typespeed_0.5.1-1_source.changes       ?07:42
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LaserJockhmmpf08:04
zulhmm?08:11
ryanakcaLaserJock: how do you create .pot files for c scripts... ex, typespeed... xgettext doesn't seem to output anything...08:11
LaserJockzul: I'm wondering at the forums08:11
LaserJockryanakca: I'm not really sure08:11
zulLaserJock: oh yes the lovely forums08:12
LaserJockI've only done docbook08:12
LaserJockzul: it seems 6 forum staff have been fired or resigned in the last couple days08:12
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ryanakcahmmm... anybody know how to create a .pot file for rosetta from *.c files/apps?08:12
cbx33Hi guys08:12
=== imbrandon wonders why realplayer from canonical repos put a menu item in "graphics" on kmenu
slomoryanakca: do you use automake/autoconf for your build system? or something handmade?08:13
imbrandonLaserJock, ubuntuforms.org or kubuntuforums.net ?08:14
=== cbx33 needs a bit of help understand a package.....
LaserJockubuntuforums.org08:14
imbrandonouch08:14
LaserJockI didn't know there was a kubuntu specific one08:15
cbx33I'm looking at edubuntu-artwork08:15
imbrandonLaserJock, not many do ;(08:15
cbx33it uses cdbs - and has loads of makefiles dotted around08:15
ryanakcaslomo: I think it uses make since I edited a Makefile... ./configure && make && make install... I downloaded typespeed off the web and am packaging it :) http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=243908:15
cbx33one in like every directory08:15
=== imbrandon note we are stepchildren ;)
LaserJockimbrandon: well, I would think it would be in ubuntuforums.org08:15
mukundryanakca: if the project uses autotools, you can cd po/ && make <projectname>.pot08:15
LaserJockI hate it when everything gets all split up08:16
cbx33I'm not too hot on makefiles at the mo08:16
imbrandonLaserJock, should be  i agree08:16
cbx33but is it cdbs that created them?08:16
Arbiterehr... who's daemon@poleboy.de?08:16
slomoryanakca: oh then you want to add complete gettext support to it? ;) that doesn't make much sense unless you're upstream08:16
LaserJocksistpoty08:16
slomoArbiter: sistpoty08:16
LaserJocknot slomo ;-)08:16
Arbitergh08:16
Arbiter* debian/copyright: you miss the license in src/core/compat-round.{cc,h}08:16
ryanakcamukund: slomo: make: *** No rule to make target `typespeed.pot'.  Stop.08:16
mukundryanakca: do you have a po/ directory ?08:17
ArbiterSunPro it's a Sun Microsystem business08:17
Arbiteri've added Sun Microsystems in debian/correctly.. (i think)08:17
ryanakcaslomo: I guess so.. I'm not very sure of what I'm doing... I'm just trying to get it set up so that rosetta can translate it :)...08:17
ryanakcamukund: I ran: mkdir ./po/08:17
Arbiterdo i need to add both Sun Microsystems && SunPro?08:17
slomoryanakca: it can't be translated unless you add gettext support for it which shouldn't be done on the packaging side but upstream08:18
mukundryanakca: heh, no  wanted to know if the upstream package already did.. it has more than a blank directory08:18
slomoryanakca: and in which Makefile does this error happen?08:18
Arbiterfixed...08:18
ryanakcaslomo: the only one... typespeed-0.5.1/Makefile :)08:19
ryanakcaslomo: source is here: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=243908:19
slomoryanakca: when you type "make"? the file isn't referenced there08:19
mukundryanakca: http://www.gnome.org/~malcolm/i18n/08:20
mukundapplicable to non-gnome projects too08:20
mukundhttp://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-i18n/developer.html <- that is a good read as well08:20
slomoryanakca: builds fine for me here... anyway, you don't want to add translation support to it :P talk to upstream about it or provide upstream a patch for it :)08:21
ryanakcahmmm... I think I'll just bug upstream...08:21
ryanakcalooks much simpler than messing around with it myself :)08:21
slomoryanakca: and it will be a pain to maintain a package with such patch over a long time so you would push it upstream anyway ;)08:23
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=== cej105 is now known as tortoise_
tortoise_could anyone help me package my python app?08:29
cbx33tortoise_, I can try and help08:31
cbx33I recently pacakged one08:31
LaserJocktortoise_: have you read the Ubuntu Packaging Guide at help.ubuntu.com?08:32
tortoise_I'm just reading it now08:32
LaserJockgreat08:33
cbx33that was gonna be my first pointer08:33
cbx33the packaging guide RULES !08:33
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LaserJockwow, and I thought Ubuntu had it's share of trolls: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/KickbanXahLeeFromEmacsChannel08:48
sharms2I am considered a troll I suppose :)08:48
LaserJocknot that I'm aware of08:49
sharms2give me time?08:50
LaserJockI hope not08:50
sharms2:)08:50
LaserJockI seriously never want to have to ban anyone08:50
tsengI used to ban bluefoxicy daily08:51
LaserJockthat's why I don't hang out in #ubuntu ;-)08:51
tsengto shut him up08:51
LaserJockI bet08:51
tsengtoo bad about the CoC08:51
LaserJock?08:51
tsengI have to act nice08:51
LaserJockhehe08:51
sharms2tseng: I read something about you being mean today somewhere08:52
sharms2trying to dig it up08:52
tsengsharms2: haha nice08:52
LaserJockhehe, whiprush's blog08:52
tsengoh.08:52
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tsenghahah08:52
sharms2lol08:52
tsengI didnt actually say that08:52
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sharms2taken out of context?08:53
dolsonstupid tornados...08:53
tsengno, I never said it at all08:53
tsengits a joke08:53
sharms2ah well now the internet has ruined it08:53
tsengi think it was for me08:53
bluefoxicyheh08:54
LaserJocktseng: to bad, I can imagine you saying it ;-)08:54
bluefoxicytseng you know I am still banned in #-hardened/08:54
tsengbluefoxicy: haha nice.08:54
bluefoxicythey eventually got tired of me talking08:54
tsengLaserJock: I *could* have said it08:54
tsengLaserJock: but not to jorge08:54
bluefoxicybut that's okay, I emerge sync'd 2 hours ago and I'm at 70% of rebuilding the portage cache08:54
bluefoxicyand by 2 hours ago I mean the tree finished downloading 2 hours ago and has been rebuilding the portage cache ever since.08:54
LaserJocktseng: yeah, he seems too nice for that08:54
tsengI wouldnt say anything that mean directly to someone unless they were insanely clue resistant08:56
tsengthere certainly have been a few of those.08:56
bluefoxicytseng:  link plz08:56
tsengbluefoxicy: struct* bluefoxicy;08:57
bluefoxicylol08:57
tsengoh, the blog? :)08:57
tsenghttp://www.whiprush.org/2006/07/pocket_full_of_.html#comment-1990960308:57
dholbachi call it a day - have a nice evening08:57
tsengbye dholbach !08:57
sharms2have a good one08:57
LaserJockcya dholbach, did Mentors look ok to you?08:57
dholbachLaserJock: yeah08:58
dholbachgood work08:58
LaserJockk, I'll try to work on some others too08:58
LaserJockwe should announce a School session soon08:58
bluefoxicytseng hahahahaha08:58
Gloubiboulga_LaserJock, yes, that'd be nice :)08:58
cbx33oooh08:58
=== cbx33 will be attending
LaserJockdholbach: should we dicuss topic/time on the ML?08:59
dholbachyep08:59
LaserJockI can do the first one if you guys want08:59
LaserJockif nobody else wants to do it08:59
zulwhat is the first one?08:59
LaserJockI don't know, we'll have to see09:00
LaserJockwe've got a requests page09:00
bluefoxicytseng:  I'm sure I can come up with worse things, or at least take them out of context and make them look worse09:00
LaserJockbut my feeling is we just need to *start*09:00
LaserJockthen we can move forward09:00
tsengbluefoxicy: im sure you could09:01
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Gloubiboulga_LaserJock, with what session should we start?09:29
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Gloubiboulga_merges? source packages?09:29
LaserJockGloubiboulga_: what would you suggest?09:29
Gloubiboulga_merges I think09:29
LaserJockit's kinda hard to do merges if you don't know *anything* about packaging09:30
Gloubiboulga_that's true09:30
LaserJockbut it is the most immediatly applicable09:30
LaserJockand needed09:30
Gloubiboulga_yes09:30
Gloubiboulga_I suggested the 'source packages' session but it could be merged with an other one09:30
crimsunbut how much do you really need to know about packaging to merge/sync?09:30
Gloubiboulga_there's not much to say09:31
LaserJockcrimsun: not much, I don't think09:31
crimsunfor the vast majority of MoM/universe, you're checking debian/{control,rules}09:31
LaserJockI learned a lot by doing merges09:31
LaserJockit's also good to get people into the flow of MOTU work09:31
LaserJockand gives them some quick feedback09:31
=== cbx33 should proably do some merges
cbx33but I'm too excited about development at the moment :p09:32
LaserJockone topic that I'd like to see is a "package building timeline" that shows what happens from the time you run dh-make to when the .deb hits the mirrors09:34
LaserJocknot a howto09:35
cbx33LaserJock, that would be an interesting topic09:35
LaserJockbut answering stuff like, what does dpkg-buildpackage do? what happens after a package is uploaded?09:35
crimsunthat's probably to be covered in the soyuz part09:37
crimsunat least it would make sense09:37
crimsungranted I did run through that this morning around 3:30 AM localtime w/ heretician09:38
LaserJockah good09:38
imbrandon;)09:38
crimsunkponies and everything.09:38
imbrandonkponies ftw09:38
imbrandonheh09:39
LaserJockI just remember one of the things that took me a while to get a handle on at first was that everything should be installed into /debian/<packagename>/09:39
LaserJockbecause I didn't really understand what debuild -S was doing09:39
crimsun(depending on dh compat version)09:40
Toadstoolre09:40
crimsunerr, there's TB in 20 mins, no?09:40
imbrandonyea i think so09:40
imbrandon( tb )09:41
LaserJockwell, I mean I didn't get that you wouldn't install to /usr09:41
crimsunk I'm off for coffee, bb in 2009:41
imbrandonyup its in 20 minutes , its the one hobbsee is going for motu ;)09:43
LaserJock\o/09:43
zuloh yesh...totoally forgot about that09:43
imbrandonLaserJock, you mean i cants install in /opt/<package> </sarcasim>09:43
LaserJockwe need to overwhelm the TB with cheerleading09:43
imbrandonLaserJock, right on09:43
LaserJockimbrandon: hmm, some do actually09:44
imbrandonthey do ? wow09:44
LaserJockmultiverse packages09:44
imbrandonahh yea , dident think about those09:44
Toadstoolif anyone wants to be part of my fanclub after cheerleading for Hobbsee... :)09:44
lucasah, Hobbsee is not a motu yet ?09:44
LaserJockToadstool: you going too?09:44
Toadstoolyep09:44
=== lucas totally out of sync with ubuntu development :/
imbrandonlucas, not for 20+ minutes ;)09:44
LaserJockToadstool: have I sponsored anything for you?09:44
ToadstoolI think so09:45
Toadstoolthough I can't remember what09:45
LaserJockhmm, if you can figure out what I can attempt to make an intelligent statment on your behalf ;-)09:45
imbrandonToadstool, i can cheer that you have helped me learn a bit here and there by proxie ( asking motu's questions that i dident know either heheh )09:45
=== _jaldhar is now known as jaldhar_
Toadstoolheh thx :)09:45
=== jaldhar_ is now known as jaldhar
ToadstoolLaserJock: iirc you uploaded my ghemical ftbfs-for-64bit-archs fix :)09:47
LaserJockah, k. I'll try to review a little before the meeting09:47
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imbrandonthere she is ;)09:51
Hobbseemorning all!09:52
Hobbseehehe09:52
Toadstoolhey Hobbsee09:52
Hobbseehi Toadstool09:52
Gloubiboulga_hi Hobbsee09:53
Hobbseehey Gloubiboulga_ :)09:53
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LaserJockcrimsun: quick, I need a pony pic :-)09:58
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HobbseeLaserJock: hah, whatever for?10:13
HobbseeLaserJock: i do actually have the link to one10:13
crimsuncongrats Sarah10:14
LaserJockah, there was a guy in #emacs who wanted a good IMAP client for emacs... and a pony10:14
Hobbseecrimsun: thanks :)10:14
HawkwindHobbsee: Congrats!10:19
StevenKLaserJock: wanderlust10:19
HobbseeHawkwind: thankyou :D10:19
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crimsuncongrats Toadstool10:31
Toadstoolthanks crimsun ;)10:32
Gloubiboulga_2 more MOTUs, that's really nice :)10:32
Toadstoolyay!10:32
slomocongrats Toadstool and Hobbsee :)10:32
LaserJockwahoo!10:32
crimsunToadstool got the rough questions10:32
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  Got some more information, moving topic here since tracer/beagle are mostly universe thoughts.10:32
MithrandirHobbsee: about time. :-P10:32
=== Mithrandir ruffles Hobbsee.
crimsunthe virtually unanswerable ones, that is10:32
HobbseeMithrandir: hehe!  i kinda wanted them to do me for main as well...10:32
bluefoxicyYou would need two nautilus - one for Beagle and one for tracker. The Nautilus maintainer will not export an interface for plug-ins just yet as he's not happy the current nautilus search is ABI stable enough.10:32
bluefoxicyDebian can of course support having two nautilus - a nautilus-tracker and a nautilus-beagle packages. Im afraid at the moment thats the only way it can be done.10:32
=== Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir
MithrandirLaserJock: congrats to you too.10:33
Toadstoolcrimsun: heh10:33
HobbseeMithrandir: just in time for bugday!10:33
LaserJockMithrandir: me?10:33
MithrandirHobbsee: yay, nice!10:33
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  ^^^ so says Jamie.10:33
MithrandirLaserJock: uh, sorry, meant Toadstool10:33
ToadstoolMithrandir: thanks10:33
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LaserJockbluefoxicy: that's kinda stinky10:34
Gloubiboulga_good night all10:34
HobbseeMithrandir: i just didnt want to be rejected, you know10:34
LaserJocklucas, Toadstool: do you think Ubuntu education help?10:34
Hobbseeslomo: :)10:34
bluefoxicyLaserJock:  basically he's saying that apparently the ABI keeps changing so they are forcing things to be compiled into nautilus instead of as plug-ins; if you make plug-ins in this environment shit keeps breaking10:34
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bluefoxicys/shit/stuff/beforeigetbannedagain10:35
lucasubuntu education ?10:35
MithrandirHobbsee: there's no shame in having to try more than once, though.10:35
ToadstoolLaserJock: uh? what d'you mean? :)10:35
LaserJocklucas: educating Ubuntu people10:35
lucasah10:35
=== Mithrandir ponders finding a beer. I haven't tasted any from the latest batch.
lucasit's important10:35
=== Toadstool jumps all around his room
HobbseeMithrandir: that is true, but i dont like doing it.10:35
lucasbut it has to be done in an efficient way10:35
LaserJocksorry about my poor  typing10:35
HobbseeMithrandir: besides, i dont like getitng up early :P10:35
MithrandirHobbsee: heh, yeah, I guess it's early for you now?10:35
ToadstoolLaserJock: there's room for a special MOTU class about that imho10:36
lucasubuntu devs are usually over-busy10:36
Mithrandirooh, half six.10:36
LaserJockToadstool: that's been on my mind as well10:36
LaserJocklucas: yeah, that's a problem10:36
HobbseeMithrandir: meeting started at 6am, i gave up on kaffeine at about 12.15 am.10:36
lucasif they have to spend time on one-to-one mentorship, it's not going to be possible10:36
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  passed back out at 12:30 am?10:36
MithrandirHobbsee: sounds painful to get up, then.10:36
Hobbseebluefoxicy: not passed out as such - but a bit tired, yeah10:37
HobbseeMithrandir: yeah, rather.  i was pretty excited, so it wasnt too bad.10:37
MithrandirHobbsee: bouncy! :-)10:37
LaserJockI would think an LP button that would forward the comments of a bug to Debian's BTS would be nice10:37
HobbseeMithrandir: i dont think i can bounce this early, no matter what kind of a high i'm on10:38
HobbseeLaserJock: yeah, ditto to the mess that is kde bugs.10:38
crimsunLaserJock: afaik that's in the works (not so much a button but a gateway)10:38
slomoLaserJock: i guess many DDs won't like this very much :) but yes, that's a good idea10:38
ToadstoolLaserJock: hmm... there's should be some kind of policy about this button then... 'cause Debian guys won't be happy if they get random crap from LP :)10:38
Hobbseeooh look, the sun's finally coming up....10:38
Toadstoolheh10:38
LaserJockwell now, it'd have to be  tied to ubuntu-qa like other stuff is10:39
LaserJocks/now/no/10:39
Toadstoolyep10:39
bluefoxicyheh10:39
crimsunHobbsee: I think I've seen the sun rise every morning since I graduated from college10:39
Hobbseecrimsun: i almost never see it rise :P10:39
bluefoxicycrimsun:  I've seen the sun rise an unfortunately many times this month.10:39
LaserJockbut right now, the manual process of submitting bugs and trying to follow up is a bit of a pain10:39
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bluefoxicycrimsun:  I need to get to bed earlier.  I'm up when pitti and Hobbsee are getting up!10:39
Toadstoolindeed10:39
LaserJockif you aren't already using Debian's BTS10:40
Hobbseeheh10:40
Hobbseebluefoxicy: you forget, i'm up way earlier than usual10:40
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  heh.  I'm in US east coast, you're in AU, if y,ou're waking up at 6am-noon or such I'm probably up way too early or way too late.10:40
ograbluefoxicy, pitti and Hobbsee ? you are aware that one of them sits in europe and the other in australia ?10:40
Mithrandircrimsun: you obviously don't live far from the equator, then.10:41
Hobbseeheh10:41
bluefoxicyogra:  yeah.  pitti shows up 2-3am here, hobbsee around 4-5 I think.  I don't remember much about when Hobbsee shows up, haven't really had to sit up waiting for her for any specific reason.10:41
crimsunMithrandir: nope, not terribly far10:41
bluefoxicyman, I need my own place10:42
bluefoxicyI want a room like the one I built on taps10:42
crimsun+36.072433 -079.772167 currently10:42
bluefoxicyI sketched it out with 27 computers, including some PPCs and sparcs :>10:42
Hobbseeogra: yeah.  remind me to move to europe.10:42
ograHobbsee, well, DO IT ! :)10:42
Hobbseeogra: it's too painful trying to get suitable meeting times, that arent in the middle of my night, when i'm at uni10:42
Mithrandircrimsun: the sun set less than half an hour ago here and will be up in less than six hours. :-)10:42
Hobbseeogra: hehe...i dont have the money for that :P10:42
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  the 4 year institute I'm looking at attending has computer science courses \o/10:43
ograbut you certainly live on the more beautiful continent :)10:43
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  And they're held around 3AM because all the computer students are up that late anyway \o/10:43
Hobbseebluefoxicy: i'm doing a bachelor of technology in optoelectronics - not really suited.  true10:43
bluefoxicyopowhatronics?10:43
slomoogra: hm, does X work on your ibook with latest edgy? mine doesn't find the font "fixed" and doesn't want to start :)10:44
bluefoxicy..... chicks dig giant robots.10:44
ograslomo, run mkfontdir in the misc dir10:44
ograits an old bug, but since we'll likely get 7.1 it will be temporary10:44
Hobbseebluefoxicy: look on wikipedia.10:45
MithrandirHobbsee: optoelectronics?  Sounds interesting.10:45
LaserJockbluefoxicy: very cool stuff10:45
HobbseeMithrandir: it is :)  only covers first year programming though10:45
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  ah.10:45
LaserJockbah, at least you get some programming10:45
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  my boyfriend is an aerospace engineer.  <310:45
HobbseeLaserJock: yeah, true10:45
LaserJockI've been to 8 years of uni and I still haven't taken a CS course10:45
MithrandirHobbsee: I don't know of any programmers who became programmers in a university class, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.10:45
slomoogra: thanks... works fine :)10:45
ogra:)10:46
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  He likes electronics though, you could probably actually talk to him and have a captive audience instead of a very bored one :P10:46
HobbseeMithrandir: yeah, exactly. i've yet to code much C++ for kubuntu...10:46
slomoHobbsee: most people that learn programming at university first are not very good at it from my experience ;)10:46
Toadstoolqt... :p10:46
Hobbseeslomo: hehe, true10:47
Hobbseeslomo: i just teach it to everyone else :P10:47
crimsunslomo: that's because you can't teach programming, only syntax, which is utterly the wrong way of doing it imo.10:47
LaserJockHobbsee: virtually all I do is basically applied optoelectronics :-)10:47
HobbseeLaserJock: yeah, exactly :P  fun stuff :)10:47
Hobbseecrimsun: that is true10:48
bluefoxicycrimsun:  the other wrong thing they do is they don't mandate assembly at the lower levels.10:49
bluefoxicycrimsun: and they teach C++10:50
slomocrimsun: right :) but although our lectures about programming didn't talk much about syntax it wouldn't help you much because you don't learn it by listening but by doing :P10:50
bluefoxicyso you walk in "Here is C++, you write this syntax and this happens," just like you said.  in fact EXACTLY like you said.  The student walks out 1) Having classes forced in his face BEFORE he knows ANY programming; 2) Manipulating memory directly and not understanding the underlying function of the machine (i.e. basic assembly, VERY basic assembly even)10:50
crimsunbluefoxicy: I'm not entirely convinced asm is necessary at an intro level (again, syntax)10:50
Mithrandirbluefoxicy: uh, why would you need to know assembly to learn how to program?10:51
Hobbseeslomo: i tend to code the weekly assignment durign the lectures, on paper, and look up every once in a while to see what's going on.  it works :D10:51
bluefoxicycrimsun:  I self-taught myself assembly.  I think mov, cmp, every jxx, registers, the stack, basic memory considerations.  The most basic parts of 286 assembly, enough to write a small encryption program from scratch.  I learned all of 6502 assembly too.10:51
bluefoxicycrimsun:  When I code in C, I know things about what I'm doing.  For instance I know a variable I allocate is on the stack, I know what the stack looks like and what happens if i overflow it, I know my program crashed in weird unmapped memory because somewehre I fragged the stack.10:52
crimsunthe most important thing to teach at an intro level is what an algorithm is. Later you can teach how to design algorithms, then how to design good algorithms, and so on.10:52
Toadstool+110:52
bluefoxicycrimsun:  I know when I allocate a pointer, it's pointing elsewhere in memory.  I don't know just those words, but actually what it means.  I figured out adjusting pointer addresses to walk arrays myself because I knew that, and not just the syntax of a pointer.10:53
bluefoxicycrimsun:  Anyway short version, when I code, I know what I'm doing to the machine, not just what my code is supposed to make appear to happen.10:53
bluefoxicyand yeah, designing good algorithms and everything is important too.  That's a little higher level though isn't it?  That's like "you know how to code, now we're going to explain math to you, using code to show how it works"10:54
sharmsOn the motu/bugs page, can I edit this line: Bugs tagged as Universe in [WWW]  bugzilla. Bugzilla is being phased out in favor of [WWW]  Malone for Universe packages but there are still some left.10:55
sharmsor is bugzilla really still used?10:55
Mithrandirsharms: bugzilla hasn't been in use for quite some time10:57
crimsunbluefoxicy: you're then programming for a paradigm (procedural/imperative), which is fine, but at a really basic (intro?) level, the point is to solve a problem, and to do that you need to teach the idea of an algorithm10:57
sharmsMithrandir: thanks10:57
crimsunbluefoxicy: these questions have been discussed for aeons in the ivory tower, and no one has really gotten it right except, because everyone learns differently10:58
crimsuns/except//10:58
bluefoxicycrimsun:  Yeah, but to teach the idea of an algorithm, you have to A) do it mathematically, in which case you draw a formula for a hash or such in descrete math; or B) do it programmatically, in which case you have to show it in code10:59
slomocrimsun: agreed :) although not only algorithms are important but general software engineering knowledge too... otherwise people will write weird code ;)10:59
bluefoxicyprogrammatically though you have to know what the machine is doing or you'll do something dumb.  Look at the stupid crap programmers have to be taught.10:59
bluefoxicyintro-level programmers want to know i.e. why they can't memcpy() a struct that has pointers in it and then alter strings and such and not have the other struct change too11:00
crimsunbluefoxicy: the easiest explanation of an algorithm -- not a specific one -- is simply a set of steps to do something. That's not difficult to teach.11:00
sharmsslomo: pm11:00
bluefoxicycrimsun:  I'd prefer a descrete math definition to a plain english set of steps; but i'm a very formal person.11:00
Mithrandirbluefoxicy: I claim that you're using the wrong language if your intro-level programmers are exposed to memcpy.11:01
bluefoxicyMithrandir:  at least it's not java!11:01
Mithrandirbluefoxicy: java is less bad than assembly to learn programming, IMO.11:01
bluefoxicyMithrandir:  I'm not proporting to teach programmers how to program using assembly, just to introduce them to the machine with assembly11:02
crimsunthat's my point, though. The language isn't the issue, it's how to use a language. Historically academia errs into teaching syntax and not how to analyse problems and form a set of steps to resolve them.11:02
MithrandirI don't see a point in that.  They'll get to know the machine quickly enough.  Newbie programmers start by learning concepts such as "variable", "conditional", "loop", etc.11:02
bluefoxicyMithrandir:  I don't want them thinking strcpy() is a magic function that waves a wand to get the same data over here in this thing over there and that malloc() gives them an actual something.11:02
Mithrandirand to teach them that, you want to teach them in a language where they don't have to do explicit memory handling, for instance.11:03
bluefoxicyYou would be surprised how many programmers get to their third or fourth class and still don't know how exactly strcpy() gets text from one side of memory to the other11:03
sharmsI see no point in teaching assembly first, with respect to longetivity, since underlying processes and fundamentals of computer hardware may change in the future, but things like loops will be more likely to always exist11:03
bluefoxicyor how many haven't exactly been told that if you strcpy(dest, dest+1) it'll run forever.11:03
bluefoxicyand don't know why.11:03
FunnyLookinHatbluefoxicy, that's why programmers should learn C as their first language and not be allowed to use anything more than the basic functions so they understand memory locations and usage  : )11:04
=== Bazzi wasn't told that as well
sharmsOr better yet, have the compiler issue a warning and be done with it.11:04
crimsunsharms: right, programming paradigms are very important, but at an intro level we're not thinking about architecture.11:04
sharmsI don't want to know how strcpy works, just that it works as specified in the manpage.11:04
sharmsthe goal, in very large systems, is abstraction11:04
FunnyLookinHatbluefoxicy, for example, they taught Java at Purdue University as the first language to use, and it created a lot of bad habits for the first year students  ;)11:04
bluefoxicyI asked one of my classmates what would happen if he did that strcpy() command and he said he didn't know, he had this blank look on his face that was a clean indicator of not knowing how the data goes from one place to another.11:04
sharmsnot indepth knowledge of every single function11:04
Bazzibluefoxicy: ideally, the programmer doesn't have to know.11:05
crimsunanyhow, sorry for the offtopic springboard :-P11:05
bluefoxicysharms:  not the functions, but basically knowing about memory, stack, and maybe (but not necessarily) registers.  Having some idea what you're doing11:05
bluefoxicyhah yeah11:06
bluefoxicywe should stop11:06
Bazzibluefoxicy: so you see programming as a low level thing, still?11:06
sharmsbut why should I know about how memory works?  that isn't my job to manage memory.11:06
sharmsthe process should be transparent and abstracted in a well planned system / language11:07
Bazzithe problem is, if you teach stack, registers and whatnot too early, they just won't understand what it is11:07
bluefoxicyBazzi:  In C you are mucking with memory directly.  I wouldn't want a mechanic to muck with my car engine directly with the knowledge that "the cam shaft is tied to the pistons.  I'm not sure what it's for, I just know it's inside the engine somewhere, I'll see it when I take it apart"11:07
LaserJockI just use Python and be done with it, but then I'm just a chemist11:07
bluefoxicyBazzi:  I put it there, it does what it's supposed to.  It doesn't do what it's supposed to... um.  Looks good to me?11:07
Bazziso my personal opinion is to start with a high level language, teach them algorithms first (without the language getting in their way) and then going back to the roots11:08
sharmsI see python as getting closer to where programming will be in 10 years, so maybe I am biased11:08
sharmsbut in the same way I wouldn't use vaccume tubes to create a computer, I don't see todays youth needing low-level languages11:08
Bazzion my C introductory course (1 week) we talked about 3 of 5 days just about C oddities11:08
bluefoxicyok we're way offtopic :P11:09
Bazzibut it's important ;)11:09
sharmsI think we passed way offtopic 10 minutes ago hehe11:09
bluefoxicymaybe I should ask my college if I can do a study11:09
BazziI have to hold a week of basic programming training myself, soon, so I need any teaching advise I an get ;)11:09
=== sharms notes that as far as he knows nobody here is determining the ciriculumns of young students
sharmsoh you are?11:10
bluefoxicyThey'll let me crash course 10-15 students in ASM for sure11:10
crimsunsharms: I am.11:10
sharmswell then I suppose it is very relevant11:10
Mithrandirsharms: being able to go down into the stack and disassemble all the way to assembly is certainly useful, but not for a beginner.11:11
Hobbseeis it worth going back to sleep?  hmmm....11:11
ograHobbsee, how early is it for you ?11:11
slomoHobbsee: sleep is worth everything :)11:12
Hobbseeogra: currently 7am, the meeting started at 611:12
sharmsMithrandir: my point was just that in 10 years I can't imagine programmers having to manually go through a stack11:12
Hobbseeslomo: hehe. true.11:12
ograwell, there is still time for 3h of sleep at least ;)11:12
ograhumans should not be up before 10am ... (bakers excluded indeed)11:12
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Mithrandirsharms: I think you're wrong, but we'll see.11:13
ogra*g*11:13
Bazzithe programmer has to go through a java-style stacktrace at least11:13
sharmsit's hard to say with that time line and the rate in which hardware and knowledge grows.  I mean for all we know the linux kernel could be rewritten in pure managed code by then11:13
Hobbseeogra: hehe, tell that to my mother :P11:13
ograwell, i wouldnt tell that to *my* mother even :)11:14
Hobbseeogra: heh.  :P11:17
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bluefoxicyogra:  how early should furries be up?  :P11:20
tmccrar1Is xorg 7.1 in edgy?11:21
Hobbseebluefoxicy: furries?  furries should never be up11:21
LaserJocktmccrar1: packages.ubuntu.com has package info11:21
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  haha.  You saw the desktop background in #-offtopic last night?11:21
ografurries ? my dictionary strikes on that ...11:21
Hobbseebluefoxicy: no, i was fixing various multimedia apps.11:22
Hobbseebluefoxicy: and writing a very logn "to do" list, and sorting out getting my car fixed11:22
tmccrar1hmm, looks like it doesn't11:22
bluefoxicyHobbsee:  someone drew 3 furries holding hands like the original ubuntu logo from Human Circle :P11:22
Hobbseebluefoxicy: ahhh...11:23
bluefoxicysomeone told me ArOS has the coolest logo ever.. i'm inclined to agree.  http://www.aros.org/  Compare w/ Tux, BSDemon11:24
StevenKHah, now that is sexy11:25
micahcowanVery nice. Could be considered male-centric tho11:26
tmccrar1that is retarded11:26
bluefoxicyso could Ubuntu.  All the calendar and human circle logos were what, a guy with TWO girls?11:26
bluefoxicy"Listen to you, what are you going to do with two chicks?"  "Dude Church women are like Voltron, the more you hook up the better it gets"11:26
ogranot true ... there was only one where the guy was on with both of them ...11:27
micahcowanbluefoxicy: what's that from?11:27
bluefoxicyI recall at least three, excluding the whole human circle one that was clothed11:27
ograthe rest were either the guy or one of the girls11:27
bluefoxicymicahcowan:  red vs blue.11:27
bluefoxicyogra:  to be fair though one of those three was just butts.11:27
micahcowanDamn. Haven't watched that. Haven't played Halo, either.11:28
ograyep, true11:28
bluefoxicyOne of them he was eyeing one of the girls up like "Mmmm... gonna take these two home tonight..." ... overly suggestive.  We already covered this in #-offtopic last night, I think those created an unfavorable business image due to the suggestive nature of the images when processed through the human mind11:29
bluefoxicyANYWAY.11:29
tmccrar1does anyone know where the git_xorg script is that is mentioned on the freedesktop wiki? it grabs all of Xorg's source11:30
bluefoxicyI switched over to here to talk about searching, htf did we get this far offtopic11:30
=== Hobbsee rolls her eyes.
Hobbseeyes, anyway...11:30
tmccrar1they it's "Attached to this page" but I doesn't appear to be there11:30
chillywillybah11:38
chillywillyI got my CD package in the mail with nothing in it11:38
LaserJock?11:38
LaserJocksomebody stole your Ubuntu CDs?11:39
chillywillyShipIt CDs11:39
chillywillysays it was "damaged"11:39
LaserJockgrrr11:39
chillywillyfucking sucks11:39
LaserJockhow long did it take to get them?11:39
chillywillyonly thing that is in the package is a small flyer to get your copy of the ubuntu guide :(11:40
chillywillylong time11:40
chillywillycouple months11:41
chillywillyIIRC11:42
LaserJockI was thinking of ordering some but I'm afraid it'll be edgy by the time I get them11:42
LaserJockI've got 1 each of Ubuntu Kubuntu and Edubuntu from Paris11:42
LaserJockso I could make quick copies11:42
chillywillyI've ordered them for the last couple previous releases11:43
bluefoxicyLaserJock, slomo:  "I guessed that - I could provide a patch to Nautilus to make it runtime selectable (with Nautilus depending on both libtracker and libBeagle) but this would not make it into the main nautilus source and so it would have to be maintained externally."11:43
chillywillynever had any problems11:43
bluefoxicyubuntu guide?  Is that like Slackware Linux Essentials?  :)11:43
slomobluefoxicy: *shrug* i don't care :) and for the nautilus patch you have to talk to seb12811:44
LaserJockme neither, I don't run beagle or tracker and I barely ever use spotlight, locate, or find11:46
tsengare we still carrying on about tracker?11:48
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bluefoxicytseng:  I'm not sure anyone was interested in the first place, though I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to offer both until both technologies mature.  So far it looks like a nightmare.11:49
Toadstoolgasp, another unattended ctrl-alt-backspace :p11:49
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Toadstoolg'night everybody, cya tomorrow... er, today for the hug day :p12:03
Hobbseenight ToadZzZztool12:03
LaserJockcya ToadZzZztool, congrats?12:04
LaserJocks/?/!/12:04
LaserJockwhy do I insist on putting ?s at the end of everything12:04
LaserJock?12:04
HobbseeLaserJock: becqause it's fun?12:04
LaserJockgrrrrr12:05
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zulhey12:05
LaserJockI've spent all morning trying to figure out why emacs won't find .el files :/12:05
LaserJockonly certain ones though12:06

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