[12:11] <cbx33> thank you so much LaserJock and sistpoty
[12:11] <sistpoty> cbx33: thank's for your contribution ;)
[12:12] <cbx33> np
[12:49] <LaserJock> Toadstool: did you really mean to send that to all those lists?
[12:50] <Toadstool> LaserJock: yep
[12:51] <LaserJock> k :-)
[12:51] <Toadstool> I've just followed what dholbach wrote in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Draft
[12:51] <nixternal> LaserJock: you pimp the school but you don't hang out there ;)
[12:51] <Toadstool> mass bug day annoucement spam :p
[12:51] <Toadstool> +n
[12:51] <LaserJock> Toadstool: but the subject sounds more like a discussion topic than an announcment :-)
[12:52] <nixternal> sweet Toadstool, i can't wait!!!
[12:52] <nixternal> back to dinner ;)
[12:52] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah yeah, I get to many channels open
[12:52] <Toadstool> LaserJock: well, I'm not good at choosing mail subjects :)
[12:53] <LaserJock> so are we going to have a Hug Day every Wednesday?
[12:53] <nictuku> hmm I need to find a way to perform "apt-get -s upgrade" as an unprivileged user.
[12:54] <nictuku> avoiding the lock would be great
[12:54] <LaserJock> hmm
[12:54] <LaserJock> interesting thought
[12:54] <Toadstool> LaserJock: hmm... that's what was planned at the end of Dapper's development, every Wednesday -> hug day IIRC
[12:54] <nictuku> aptitude :-)
[12:54] <LaserJock> Toadstool: k
[12:55] <Fujitsu> We need them :)
[12:55] <Toadstool> indeed :)
[12:55] <LaserJock> well, we need Hug Days, REVU Days, Merge Days, School Days, Meeting Days
[12:55] <LaserJock> that's 5
[12:55] <LaserJock> looks like our week is packed ;-)
[12:55] <Toadstool> heh
[12:56] <Fujitsu> Heheheh
[12:56] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: I'm not sure you are allowed to on non-Merge Days ;-)
[12:57] <Fujitsu> Or not.
[12:57] <LaserJock> hehe
[12:57] <Fujitsu> I think all my syncs/merges worked properly...
[12:57] <LaserJock> that's cool
[12:58] <LaserJock> make sure to document those on your wiki page
[12:58] <sistpoty> btw.: does UVF apply for universe as well?
[12:58] <LaserJock> there is one Universe Freeze
[12:58] <tseng> not until feature freeze
[12:58] <LaserJock> in September some time
[12:58] <LaserJock> at the same time as Beta Freeze I believe
[12:59] <LaserJock> it is UVF and FF combined for Universe
[12:59] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, I did :)
[12:59] <sistpoty> great :)
[01:00] <LaserJock> yeah, cause I was freaking out at the thought of how many merges needed to be done by July 13th :-)
[01:00] <Toadstool> sistpoty: UniverseFreeze -> September 28th according to the wiki
[01:00] <LaserJock> hmm, that sounds like a factoid
[01:01] <sistpoty> Toadstool: ah, thx... wasn't there when I last looked at it
[01:01] <Toadstool> :)
[01:01] <Fujitsu> LaserJock, I was about to die when I checked a week ago... I thought you were going to be stuffed.
[01:02] <LaserJock> hmm?
[01:02] <LaserJock> !freeze
[01:02] <ubotu> September 28th is the Universe Freeze. No new packages or upstream versions after this point without an exception. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseSchedule
[01:02] <Fujitsu> Haha. Very good.
[01:02] <Toadstool> oops, 1am and I'm supposed to wake up at 6am... time to go to bed
[01:02] <Fujitsu> I think it might be advisable to rename UVF.
[01:02] <Toadstool> g'night everybody
[01:03] <Fujitsu> Bye, Toadstool!
[01:03] <LaserJock> cya ToadZzZztool
[01:03] <sistpoty> gn8 ToadZzZztool
[01:10] <zul> hey
[01:10] <tseng> hi
[01:10] <zul> how is it going tseng?
[01:11] <Fujitsu> Hi zul.
[01:11] <zul> hey
[01:11] <tseng> fine thanks
[01:13] <crimsun> LaserJock: Micah Cowan raises a good point RE: MOTU Mentors
[01:13] <LaserJock> crimsun: yeah, I'm replying
[01:13] <ogra> well, the spec should have defined that, shouldnt it ?
[01:13] <Fujitsu> Mentors, or lack thereof?
[01:14] <crimsun> LaserJock: and I'm not really sure how approximating a number of mentored people each of us would "accept" really changes things
[01:14] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, the problem was that everybody said "busy"
[01:14] <LaserJock> which is a real turnoff
[01:14] <Fujitsu> Yeah, I noticed that when I looked at the page. It was quite a turn off.
[01:14] <crimsun> LaserJock: I think it might be easier for us to go the "office hours" route
[01:14] <LaserJock> so I put "generally available" and I got 2 right off the bat
[01:15] <crimsun> well, for those of us who are "very busy", it really means "very busy".
[01:15] <LaserJock> crimsun: perhaps, although dholbach didn't liek the idea
[01:15] <LaserJock> crimsun: right, but it still mean all the people are going to go for the least busy person
[01:15] <crimsun> then why don't we get rid of availability altogether?
[01:15] <LaserJock> yeah, perhaps that's the best solution
[01:16] <LaserJock> although I do like the idea of giving some indication of availability
[01:16] <Fujitsu> Probably.
[01:16] <crimsun> there's really no point in having it at all since we know there's going to be a strong tendency toward those who have a higher threshold or increased hours
[01:16] <zul> how bout the mentor is in...ie something in the topic
[01:16] <Fujitsu> Because I thought you were the only really available one, LaserJock. It's not a good idea having that field.
[01:17] <LaserJock> the problem is, in general, the people who are very active in MOTU are usually the least likely to have time for MOTU Hopeful development
[01:18] <Fujitsu> Yeah, that's unfortunate.
[01:18] <crimsun> and yet those are specifically the people who would benefit most from having people to mentor.
[01:18] <LaserJock> hi micahcowan, we were just talking about you :-)
[01:18] <micahcowan> Oh? :-)
[01:19] <micahcowan> Sorry I missed a good chunk of the conversation...
[01:19] <crimsun> the further one progresses from being an initial "mentored" person, the more easily one loses sight of what areas to emphasise.
[01:20] <crimsun> how about instead of using "availability" we have extend the IDs to Name, e-mail, irc nick, and preferred method of communication?
[01:20] <crimsun> s/have//
[01:21] <LaserJock> hmm, what would the preferred method of communication be?
[01:21] <LaserJock> I think the idea is to use email
[01:21] <crimsun> either irc or e-mail for starters
[01:21] <crimsun> that way those of us who can't access either readily can choose what's most appropriate
[01:22] <LaserJock> I was thinking Name, email, irc nick, and area of intrest would maybe be good
[01:22] <Fujitsu> Yeah, that sounds good.
[01:22] <crimsun> "active MOTU areas" is probably a more delicate way of phrasing that
[01:22] <LaserJock> yeah
[01:23] <crimsun> ok, so let's go with that idea then
[01:23] <crimsun> drop availability and add active areas
[01:23] <LaserJock> micahcowan: so was the Mentors wiki page any better than my email?
[01:23] <LaserJock> or did both suck?
[01:24] <ryanakca> "original Make have been modified: you should use a patch instead"   http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2439     I still have the original make, what do I do... if you feel so inclined, you can refer me to a webpage explaining how to patch for packaging :)
[01:24] <micahcowan> I think it said more or less the same thing as the email.
[01:24] <LaserJock> hmmm
[01:25] <LaserJock> micahcowan: so it was mostly just that you didn't really see what the point of it?
[01:26] <micahcowan> LaserJock: or that the point of it wasn't altogether clear to me, yeah...
[01:26] <crimsun> I think it's also important to consider having multiple mentors
[01:26] <sistpoty> ryanakca: you could use s.th. like dpatch or cdbs' simple-patch-sys...
[01:26] <LaserJock> crimsun: well the point was to turn them over to MOTU as a whole once they could stand on 2 legs, so to speak
[01:27] <sistpoty> ryanakca: but imo directly patching the sources is ok as well, though raphink doesn't like it :P
[01:27] <micahcowan> Unless the point of it was just to get familiar with the mailing list, IRC, etc., get your feet damp...
[01:27] <ryanakca> lol... he's the one who said to patch it... so :)
[01:27] <LaserJock> micahcowan: more or less yeah
[01:27] <crimsun> during my tenure at big blue, we had peer mentors and external mentors, the difference being that the external ones had been there for decades while our peers perhaps a few years more then us
[01:27] <crimsun> than us ^
[01:27] <sistpoty> ryanakca: but there is a different problem with typespeed: it's already in universe (but a different version)...
[01:28] <ryanakca> ...
[01:28] <sistpoty> ryanakca: so maybe it would be a good idea to reuse debian's packaging as far as possible (to keep the diversion small)
[01:28] <LaserJock> crimsun: we could have something like a MOTU Hopeful buddy system :-)
[01:28] <micahcowan> LaserJock: well, in that case, I think it was clear enough. I just wasn't sure if there was more to it than that.
[01:28] <crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, we should encourage that
[01:28] <LaserJock> micahcowan: it could be, we don't have a lot of experience
[01:29] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, I proposed something like that back in probably Oct. or Nov. of last year ;-)
[01:29] <sistpoty> ryanakca: otherwise you might end up having it to maintain for ubuntu w.o. the possibility to go in sync ever again
[01:29] <micahcowan> LaserJack: basically, what I wanted to know is, given that I'm already on email, launchpad, etc, is there much value to my being Mentored?
[01:29] <sistpoty> ryanakca: which would be some kind of waste of resources imo
[01:29] <ryanakca> sistpoty: lost me :)
[01:29] <ryanakca> sistpoty: go in sync?
[01:30] <sistpoty> ryanakca: if the debian maintainer brings in 5.1, we can just sync that...
[01:30] <LaserJock> micahcowan: perhaps
[01:30] <sistpoty> ryanakca: or you could file a wishlist bug into debian bts with your updates to typespeed
[01:31] <sistpoty> ryanakca: which means less work for you and the debian maintainer
[01:31] <LaserJock> micahcowan: I think the initial idea was to just get people to the point where they could start asking good questions
[01:31] <ryanakca> ah
[01:31] <micahcowan> micahcowan: ok. What's a good question? :)
[01:31] <micahcowan> Did I just address myself?
[01:31] <micahcowan> heh
[01:32] <LaserJock> micahcowan: when will MOTU School sessions be offered and what is the next topic?
[01:32] <ryanakca> sistpoty: hmmm... "good idea to reuse debian's packaging"... does that mean copying the old control/changelog/copyright/rules?
[01:32] <LaserJock> micahcowan: I'm having problems understanding debhelper
[01:32] <sistpoty> ryanakca: basically yes... it means to change only things that absolutely need to be changed ;)
[01:33] <micahcowan> LaserJock: (doesn't that fall under packaging basics?)
[01:33] <LaserJock> micahcowan: who do I talk to about getting a sync done
[01:33] <LaserJock> micahcowan: that might be after they have had an initial read over of the Packaging Guide, for intsance
[01:33] <LaserJock> ok, here's my use case and plan for mentoring:
[01:34] <LaserJock> A forums person who has a decent knowledge of Linux and Ubuntu wants to contribute back to the distro
[01:34] <LaserJock> but they've never used IRC or mailing lists
[01:34] <LaserJock> and they've only vaguely heard of MOTU
[01:34] <LaserJock> perhaps on a forum thread
[01:34] <LaserJock> that's the use case
[01:35] <LaserJock> now what I'd do is"
[01:35] <LaserJock> :
[01:35] <LaserJock> get them on the mailing lists
[01:35] <LaserJock> get them IRC if at all possible
[01:35] <ryanakca> sistpoty: kk
[01:35] <LaserJock> have them read over the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[01:35] <crimsun> (better yet, have them discuss the UPG with you)
[01:36] <LaserJock> ask them about their interests to see what areas to plug into (bug fixing, one of the MOTU teams, etc.)
[01:36] <LaserJock> talk about the general release process and what MOTUs do and how a package goes from a source tarball to a .deb on somebody's box (in generall terms)
[01:37] <LaserJock> I'd try to introduce them to people in the channel with like interests, etc.
[01:37] <LaserJock> and once I feel like they aren't floundering about trying to figure out what to do and can ask good questsions, they're off
[01:38] <micahcowan> LaserJock: sounds useful. It sounds like much of that won't apply to me at this point, but it sounds like a great idea.
[01:38] <LaserJock> I expect I'll always be in contact with them, but I'm *not* going to teach them everything about packaging (because we already have a mechanism for that) and I'm *not* going to turn them into my personal cronie/workhorse
[01:39] <crimsun> we should have a clear subject line for e-mails, please
[01:39] <LaserJock> except for making them do all the MOTU Science merges/syncs, of course ;-)
[01:39] <crimsun> I get upwards of a thousand daily, and even with filtering it's a chore
[01:39] <LaserJock> crimsun: which email?
[01:40] <micahcowan> LaserJock: I think you might add the bit about trying to plug them into specific teams (when applicable); introducing them to the group to the page.
[01:40] <LaserJock> -motu?
[01:40] <crimsun> whenever that initial contact with prospective mentor is
[01:40] <LaserJock> oh, for Mentors?
[01:40] <crimsun> that's why I can see multiple intro vectors
[01:41] <crimsun> some people may feel more efficient hopping on irc and pinging you
[01:41] <crimsun> some might send you an e-mail
[01:42] <LaserJock> micahcowan: something that is a bit tough with that page is that I'm guessing a potential mentee won't really know a lot of what they need, the just want to help out
[01:43] <ryanakca> whats the point of /debian/install?
[01:43] <LaserJock> but don't know where to start
[01:43] <LaserJock> ryanakca: installing files, man dh_install
[01:43] <ryanakca> LaserJock: /debian/rules? Makefile? it runs fine without it... hmmm...
[01:44] <LaserJock> debian/rules
[01:44] <ryanakca> :) debian/rules
[01:47] <crimsun> LaserJock et al.: ok, I've made the adjustment to Mentors, so you'll probably want to add your active areas
[01:47] <LaserJock> k, I'm on it
[01:48] <LaserJock> crimsun: how would "MOTU Mentor:" be for a subject line tag?
[01:48] <crimsun> that would be great as a suggestion
[01:48] <crimsun> I'm probably a corner case, but it would really help
[01:48] <LaserJock> well, I doubt it hurts
[01:53] <Fujitsu_> Are you going to add waking hours there?
[01:53] <LaserJock> I doubt it, I think for most people they fluctuate too much to be useful
[01:53] <LaserJock> maybe not though
[01:53] <LaserJock> we could just put 24x7 for crimsun and be done with it ;-)
[01:54] <Fujitsu_> I've worked on a project where I had to work with somebody who was in France. His waking hours were the opposite of mine, and it was incredibly difficult to collaborate.
[01:54] <ryanakca> sistpoty: ok, fixed it so that I recycle debian's packaging, and I still don't get the patching part :(
[01:54] <sistpoty> ryanakca: give me a sec...
[01:55] <ryanakca> sistpoty: kk, ty
[01:55] <crimsun> Fujitsu_: most of my collaborators are, like Ubuntu devs, scattered across the globe. It makes for interesting sanity-scheduling.
[01:56] <Fujitsu_> True, crimsun.
[01:56] <LaserJock> yeah, that is something you have to get used to
[01:56] <Fujitsu_> I guess, I guess.
[01:56] <sistpoty> ryanakca: it's simple for typespeed: don't use a patch system, just modify the files directly in the sourcepackage, since the debian maintainer does that as well.
[01:57] <ryanakca> ah, so I can ignore raphink's comment on patching :)
[01:57] <Fujitsu_> Urgh. That's not a good idea... Doesn't that break packaging guidelines?
[01:57] <sistpoty> ryanakca: yes
[01:57] <LaserJock> Fujitsu_: its a legitimate thing though
[01:57] <LaserJock> to both your comments ;-)
[01:57] <crimsun> it's actually aligned with our packaging guidelines.
[01:57] <Fujitsu_> Heheh. I was wondering that...
[01:57] <Fujitsu_> Is it?
[01:57] <crimsun> yes
[01:57] <LaserJock> if Debian doesn't use a patch system then you don't add one
[01:58] <crimsun> precisely.
[01:58] <Fujitsu_> Yeah, but Debian should really use a patch system...
[01:58] <crimsun> and if upstream (Debian) doesn't use that patch system, then debdiff is mighty straight-forward for us.
[01:59] <LaserJock> Fujitsu_: there isn't any Policy that I'm aware of that says you *have* to use a patch system
[01:59] <sistpoty> ryanakca: however it's a good idea to also make patches from what you changed and store them in debian/ubuntu-patches, since that's quite convenient... but that's up to you
[01:59] <micahcowan> LaserJock: I thought it was nearly absolute in the packaging-from-scratch guidelines I read...
[01:59] <micahcowan> Though I have noticed a couple exceptions "in the wild", I think.
[01:59] <ryanakca> sistpoty: hmmm... dunno how... sounds complicated... I messed around with some things a lot... I'll pass :)
[02:00] <ryanakca> sistpoty: probably cause me trouble down the road though :(...
[02:00] <ryanakca> hmmm... do I run       sudo pbuilder update --distribution edgy --override-config     now?
[02:00] <LaserJock> micahcowan: I would consider it "best practices" to make modifications as a patch that is stored in debian
[02:01] <crimsun> micahcowan: if you're packaging from scratch, yes, it's highly recommended you use a patch system
[02:01] <sistpoty> ryanakca: do you have an edgy pbuilder?
[02:01] <LaserJock> but you could just apply the patch in debian/rules if you wanted to
[02:01] <ryanakca> sistpoty: no... I'm running dapper... and dapper on pbuilder
[02:02] <sistpoty> ryanakca: then you'll also need to modify cat /etc/pbuilder/apt.config/sources.list iirc (and then run update --distribution edgy --override-config)
[02:02] <sistpoty> s/cat//
[02:03] <micahcowan> LaserJock: but not a requirement (for new packages)?
[02:03] <ryanakca> kk... so no more packaging for dapper or ??? (I'm getting really confused :) )
[02:03] <LaserJock> micahcowan: I'm gonna say no, but highly recommended
[02:03] <sistpoty> ryanakca: no, dapper is closed, all new stuff goes to edgy
[02:03] <ryanakca> kk
[02:04] <sistpoty> hm... I personally dislike any patch systems, since a VCS can do much better...
[02:04] <micahcowan> ...so, in this context, it's not a new package, and already not based on patch system?
[02:04] <Fujitsu_> Just modify the source.
[02:04] <ryanakca> sistpoty: bash: cd: /etc/pbuilder/apt.config/: No such file or directory
[02:05] <crimsun> right, we follow Debian's practice.
[02:05] <crimsun> the changes will end up in diff.gz anyhow.
[02:05] <sistpoty> however the problem is that usually only a small group of people has access to that VCS, and a sourcepackage doesn't contain the info from the VCS
[02:05] <LaserJock> micahcowan: the Golden Rule of Ubuntu Packaging is : Minimize the delta between Debian and Ubuntu, you will appreciate it later :-)
[02:05] <sistpoty> ryanakca: hm..., then just try the pbuilder update --distribution edgy (...)
[02:06] <crimsun> I will complain bitterly that I hate that window between which dinstall runs and the mirrors haven't yet published the new source packages.
[02:06] <micahcowan> Maybe I've been misunderstanding. I was thinking "patch system" referred to diff.gz... and that the discussion was that versus a single tarball with changes included...
[02:06] <crimsun> (for Debian, that is)
[02:06] <Fujitsu_> micahcowan, no.
[02:07] <micahcowan> Is it a reference to several, separate patches, one for each new set of changes?
[02:07] <LaserJock> micahcowan: no, patch system refers to patch helpers like dpatch, quilt, CDBS
[02:07] <micahcowan> oh... okay.
[02:07] <crimsun> micahcowan: diff.gz is always present for such practices. The issue is whether one uses a system to manage patches that you'd place in debian/patches/ or whether you'd apply them directly without keeping them in that directory.
[02:08] <LaserJock> keeping things in debian/ is nice
[02:09] <Fujitsu_> LaserJock, it makes things neat not having a delta outside debian/... So yes.
[02:09] <micahcowan> what's the reasoning behind that: the security of knowing that if you're not looking in debian/ it's highly probably that the code you're looking at is original from upstream?
[02:10] <crimsun> not so much debian/ but inside the diff.gz.
[02:10] <sistpoty> no... the reason is that you can annotate patches and differentiate on what change does what if you have a patch system
[02:10] <LaserJock> also it makes it easier to version control the packaging
[02:10] <micahcowan> crimsun: but you'll have a diff.gz, regardless of whether you use patching system or not (hopefully), yes?
[02:10] <LaserJock> you can just make a bzr branch out of the debian/
[02:11] <crimsun> micahcowan: yes. It's for maintenance.
[02:11] <micahcowan> Ah! Instead of branching the whole damn thing. Gotcha.
[02:11] <Fujitsu_> It makes it a lot lot easier to do merges if the patches are logically seperated.
[02:11] <Fujitsu_> Like I discovered yesterday with a couple of packages.
[02:12] <ryanakca> sistpoty: do I need to create a Desktop file for typespeed? my guess is no... but I'm not very good at guessing :)
[02:12] <crimsun> bzr is darned nice, too.
[02:13] <sistpoty> ryanakca: it's nice to have one, but not essential
[02:13] <Fujitsu_> It's good to have one, ryanakca. A lot of Ubuntu deltas are exclusively .desktops.
[02:13] <LaserJock> yeah, but that's not good either :(
[02:13] <micahcowan> Does bzr have a relation to ubuntu?
[02:13] <micahcowan> (above CVS/SVN/etc?)
[02:13] <ryanakca> kk
[02:14] <Fujitsu_> micahcowan, uh, yeah. Both sponsored/developed by sabdfl.
[02:14] <LaserJock> many Ubuntu devs favore bzr as well
[02:14] <Fujitsu_> And rightly so.
[02:14] <Fujitsu_> It's great :D
[02:15] <LaserJock> and Launchpad has some support for bzr
[02:15] <Fujitsu_> Some? I'd say a lot.
[02:15] <sistpoty> maybe I'M still thinking to erm centralized for bzr *g*
[02:15] <Fujitsu_> Hehehe.
[02:15] <LaserJock> well, it's not for everything, IMO
[02:16] <Fujitsu_> It's for a lot of things.
[02:16] <Fujitsu_> I prefer SVN for my own stuff in most cases.
[02:16] <zul> grr..
[02:16] <LaserJock> I prefer bzr for local stuff and svn for remote
[02:16] <micahcowan> Is there much reason for me to /not/ continue to use SVN for my own packaging, assuming I get to that point at some time?
[02:16] <Fujitsu_> I prefer the other way.
[02:17] <ryanakca> I take it a desktop file is debian/Desktop    ?
[02:17] <LaserJock> bzr is just waaay to slow for me remotely, plus it's got some nastiness with DNS lookups
[02:17] <Fujitsu_> No.
[02:17] <crimsun> micahcowan: my mantra is use whatever fits.
[02:17] <Fujitsu_> debian/whatever.desktop
[02:17] <micahcowan> crimsun: sounds reasonable. :)
[02:17] <crimsun> that means I have cvs, svn, hg, git, and bzr installed
[02:18] <LaserJock> I just installed cvs today :-)
[02:18] <crimsun> what a PITA when the syntax starts contorting
[02:18] <Fujitsu_> Urgh. CVS.
[02:18] <micahcowan> crimsun: hm. I hope I never find myself in that situation...
[02:18] <LaserJock> gnome is converting to SVN but they had a problem so they went back to CVS until the get the bugs worked out
[02:19] <LaserJock> but launchpad converts everythin to bzr anyway ;-)
[02:19] <LaserJock> but it takes forever to branch so I just use CVS
[02:19] <crimsun> l
[02:19] <crimsun> err
[02:23] <jsgotangco> git is interesting
[02:24] <crimsun> hmm, this can't be good.   "Permission denied (publickey)" when using bzr checkout
[02:24] <Fujitsu> Hmm. From where?
[02:25] <crimsun> whoa, this is all krunk.
[02:25] <crimsun> well, that was from: bzr checkout sftp://~crimsun@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/alsa-utils/debian/
[02:26] <jsgotangco> lol can't even get from your own branch huh
[02:26] <ryanakca> what's "Name[xx] =Kfoo" in *.desktop... theres allready "Name=Kfoo"...
[02:26] <crimsun> but ``bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/alsa-utils/debian/'' fails, too, with "bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock: transport is read only"
[02:26] <ryanakca> also... "GenericName"...
[02:27] <jsgotangco> try bzr get
[02:27] <sistpoty> ryanakca: see http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ for details
[02:28] <LaserJock> ryanakca: it really has xx?
[02:29] <ryanakca> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ubuntu-kubuntu.html    yep
[02:29] <LaserJock> hmm, maybe I should have read that ;-)
[02:29] <ryanakca> lol
[02:29] <sistpoty> ryanakca: xx is a language identifier like de for germany and so on
[02:30] <ryanakca> ah, ty
[02:33] <LaserJock> micahcowan: can you read over https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors real quick and see if it's better?
[02:36] <micahcowan> LaserJock: will do.
[02:39] <micahcowan> LaserJock: this seems significantly more informative.
[02:39] <crimsun> yay for PEBKAC
[02:40] <micahcowan> LaserJock: But the "slots" system went away?
[02:40] <crimsun> (for note, don't use ~crimsun when crimsun is correct.)
[02:40] <LaserJock> yay for wikipedia ;-)
[02:41] <LaserJock> micahcowan: yeah, we decided against it
[02:42] <LaserJock> ok, well I've got to get home and I see I've got some mentoring to do in my inbox :-)
[02:43] <zul> hey Hobbsee
[02:43] <Hobbsee> hi zul
[02:47] <_jaldhar> Fujitsu: best to just ask your questions
[02:47] <Fujitsu> _jaldhar, probably.
[02:47] <Fujitsu> But I've got to go to class now. :(
[02:48] <zul> Hobbsee: going for ubuntu-dev tomorrow?
[02:48] <Hobbsee> zul: yep :)
[02:48] <Hobbsee> assuming i'm awake
[02:49] <zul> Hobbsee: heh...good
[02:49] <ryanakca> hmmm... I'm getting errors from pbuilder when building a package... errors, Makefile, debian/rules, debian/install at: http://pastebin.ca/90767         I'm looking for a shove in the direction... (not the answer) :)
[02:49] <Hobbsee> zul: i'm kinda stuck if i *dont* get the upload rigts - i do lots of little fixes, and it's annoying to have to keep distracting people to get them to upload
[02:49] <zul> good plan
[02:49] <crimsun> Hobbsee: I highly doubt you won't be approved.
[02:50] <zul> yeah same here
[02:50] <crimsun> and I mean /highly/
[02:50] <crimsun> heck, you could probably go for -core-dev and be approved.
[02:50] <Hobbsee> crimsun: hehe, i'm tempted.  the stuff i'm playing with at the moment is in main.
[02:53] <sistpoty> ryanakca: the directory debian/typespeed//usr/games isn't created yet... is it in debian/dirs?
[02:54] <ryanakca> sistpoty: umm... nope... add "usr/games" to debian/dirs?
[02:55] <sistpoty> ryanakca: yep, that should solve it... dh_installdirs will create all dirs in debian/dirs.
[02:55] <Hobbsee> h sistpoty
[02:55] <sistpoty> hi Hobbsee
[03:01] <ryanakca> if I'm using debuild, do I need to add "mkdir -p po" and "XGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext sh admin/cvs.sh extract-messages" to the end of the install rule ?
[03:02] <ryanakca> nevermind... stupid question... I looked in debian/control :)
[03:03] <ryanakca> I'me getting these errors http://pastebin.ca/90781 with those two lines of code at the end of the install rule
[03:04] <Hobbsee> #
[03:04] <Hobbsee> XGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext sh admin/cvs.sh extract-messages
[03:04] <Hobbsee> #
[03:04] <Hobbsee> sh: admin/cvs.sh: No such file or directory
[03:04] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: i'd imagine that admin/cvs.sh never was there to start with, or got removed in clean.
[03:05] <sistpoty> ryanakca: typespeed is no kde package, no need to update the translation (and also no means to do that)
[03:06] <sistpoty> btw.: I only got a score of 440 right now... I guess I'm getting tired *g*
[03:09] <ryanakca> Hobbsee: no... never was there...
[03:10] <Hobbsee> ryanakca: that's why then :P
[03:10] <ryanakca> :)
[03:11] <Hobbsee> oh good, i'm downloading the package i modified a few days ago :)
[03:11] <ryanakca> hrrrm... I thought you were "really" AFK now :P
[03:13] <ryanakca> sistpoty: update... hasn't been translated yet :(
[03:14] <ryanakca> sistpoty: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/typespeed/+translations
[03:16] <ryanakca> sistpoty: anything I can do about it?
[03:18] <sistpoty> ryanakca: not sure about rosetta...
[03:19] <ryanakca> you aren't talking about manual translation... are you?
[03:19] <ryanakca> or is there some other tool available?
[03:19] <sistpoty> ryanakca: yes, I am.
[03:20] <sistpoty> ryanakca: but you should leave the XGETTEXT="..." from debian/rules, since otherwise you'd have to write some means to import from rosetta to typespeed yourself
[03:20] <sistpoty> ryanakca: that command is pretty specific for kde package iirc
[03:21] <ryanakca> hmmm... kk...
[03:24] <ryanakca> well... its a shell command... not kde... hmmm... now that I think of it... XGETTEXT=/usr/bin/kde-xgettext      kde-xgettext is useless... I'll look at the source of some command line scripts
[03:32] <sistpoty> gn8 everybody
[03:32] <Hobbsee> night sistpoty
[03:34] <sharms> night
[04:04] <Hobbsee> er, what was that?
[04:24] <LaserJock> hi Hobbsee! I'll try to be around for the TB meeting tomorrow to cheerlead
[04:58] <Hobbsee> hi Kyral
[04:58] <Kyral> That
[04:58] <Kyral> was
[04:58] <Kyral> fscked up
[04:58] <LaserJock> Kyral: you maintaining easychem in Debian still?
[04:58] <Kyral> Technically
[04:58] <Kyral> hasn't been much to maintain lol
[04:58] <Kyral> only bug reported was a typo
[04:59] <LaserJock> there's an ubuntu patch I believe
[04:59] <Kyral> mkay...?
[04:59] <Kyral> Hehe I haven't used a PBuilder in months
[04:59] <Hobbsee> Kyral: hah.  havent you seen my disconnects this morning?
[04:59] <Kyral> Hobbsee: no the disconnects were MY doing
[04:59] <Kyral> as in reboots
[04:59] <Hobbsee> ah
[05:00] <Kyral> I was getting my soundcard to come back suddenly
[05:00] <Kyral> oddly enough it suddenly picked up the DISABLED onboard
[05:00] <Kyral> so I went to BIOS and flipped the option to "AUTO" and it picked up my soundcard instead lol
[05:19] <crimsun> Kyral: gotta love bios.
[05:28] <Fujitsu> crimsun, can I please have some syncs confirmed?
[05:29] <crimsun> I'm cleaning up a bzr push failure, so I may not respond right away
[05:29] <crimsun> just list the bug #s
[05:30] <Fujitsu> OK.
[05:30] <Fujitsu> No problem:
[05:30] <Fujitsu> #53223, #53315, #53316, #53317, #53318
[05:33] <bluefoxicy> is anyone packaging tracker?
[05:34] <LaserJock> what?
[05:34] <LaserJock> oh
[05:34] <LaserJock> I have no idea
[05:39] <LaserJock> grrr, OS X is not treating me well tonight
[05:39] <bluefoxicy> http://www.gnome.org/~jamiemcc/tracker/DEB/
[05:39] <bluefoxicy> does that say 0ubuntusomething?
[05:40] <LaserJock> the nautilus one yeah
[05:42] <crimsun> wow, there has to be a better way than manually deleting all these knit subdirs.
[05:42] <crimsun> todo, read bzrlib
[05:47] <bluefoxicy> I like, open a terminal every time I need to edit a text file.
[05:47] <crimsun> win, bash for () + scp -b
[05:48] <LaserJock> wha?
[05:49] <crimsun> I had 110 knit subdirs to delete
[05:49] <crimsun> 210 rather
[05:49] <LaserJock> yikes
[05:49] <crimsun> since I haven't read bzrlib's docs, I erased them using a scp batchfile
[05:51] <bluefoxicy> "Once you have installed Tracker and have some indexed contents, you should now compile Nautilus (ver 2.13.4 or higher) which should auto detect that tracker is installed and automatically compile in tracker support."
[05:51] <bluefoxicy> ....... whoa.  I guess GNOME likes tracker.  Oh wait the source is hosted on gnome.org no wonder.
[06:18] <Gloubiboulga> hello Universe
[06:18] <LaserJock> hi Gloubiboulga
[06:19] <Gloubiboulga> hello LaserJock :)
[06:55] <Gloubiboulga> I like the new MOTU/Mentors wiki page :)
[06:57] <sharms> yeah that is a great idea
[06:58] <nixternal> such a great idea that you guys are in the -school channel ;)
[06:59] <Gloubiboulga> well, the -school chan exists for MOTU school sessions, but the every-day-chan is this one I think
[07:00] <nixternal> ya, i was just pokin' some fun
[07:00] <nixternal> i am staying in the -school chan, just in case someone starts teaching, i dont' want to miss anything
[07:00] <Gloubiboulga> :)
[07:55] <Fujitsu> Thanks for all that, crimsun.
[07:55] <crimsun> np.
[07:55] <Hobbsee> hi all
[07:56] <Fujitsu> Hi Hobbsee.
[07:56] <Gloubiboulga> hello Fujitsu, crimsun, Hobbsee :)
[07:56] <Hobbsee> hi crimsun, Fujitsu, Gloubiboulga
[07:57] <crimsun> hi Gauvain
[07:57] <Fujitsu> Hi, Gloubiboulga.
[08:24] <imbrandon> crimsun, got a moment to explain something to me about merges ?
[08:24] <imbrandon> or busy, if so i can wait to some other time no biggie
[08:24] <crimsun> sure, sec
[08:24] <imbrandon> kk
[08:28] <crimsun> imbrandon: hi.
[08:28] <imbrandon> heya , ok
[08:28] <imbrandon> the on MoM left with my name on it is here http://merges.ubuntu.com/i/icewm/REPORT
[08:28] <imbrandon> and
[08:28] <imbrandon> i just had a question as to WHY its on MoM
[08:28] <imbrandon> becouse the report says no errors
[08:29] <imbrandon> generated, is it just for sanity check or am i missing something
[08:30] <crimsun> imbrandon: it's on MoM because there's a newer Debian version available that hasn't been merged
[08:30] <imbrandon> so in other words I should grab
[08:30] <imbrandon> generated: 1.2.26-2ubuntu1
[08:30] <imbrandon>     icewm_1.2.26-2ubuntu1.dsc
[08:30] <imbrandon>     icewm_1.2.26.orig.tar.gz
[08:30] <imbrandon>     icewm_1.2.26-2ubuntu1.diff.gz
[08:30] <crimsun> (or overridden by a sync)
[08:30] <imbrandon> and build and sanity check it
[08:30] <crimsun> yes. Remember you created a Ubuntu delta by adding the dh_iconcache(1) stuff.
[08:30] <imbrandon> hrm ok , so a sync ?
[08:30] <crimsun> no, a merge.
[08:31] <imbrandon> right right, ok so grab those file i listed and build / snity check
[08:31] <imbrandon> sanity
[08:31] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, tha'ts the idea.  did it use cdbs?
[08:31] <crimsun> use the grab-merge.sh script
[08:31] <imbrandon> yea
[08:31] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: did it use debian/cdbs/1/kde.mk?
[08:31] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, honestly i dont rember but i think so, i will have to look
[08:32] <imbrandon> but yea i know its in kde.mk now
[08:32] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: hehe, yeah.  you're not expected to remember it all off the top of your head
[08:32] <imbrandon> hehe
[08:32] <nixternal> hey crimsun show imbrandon and Hobbsee your new ponies!!!
[08:33] <imbrandon> new ponies ? heh
[08:33] <crimsun> wha? I have new ones?
[08:33] <crimsun> remember I blacklisted that Web site many hours ago
[08:33] <nixternal> you know which ones im talking about
[08:33] <nixternal> lol
[08:36] <nixternal> imbrandon: http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/horses/index.html
[08:38] <imbrandon> heh crimsun did you see my default wallpaper proposal for edgy ? http://www.buntudot.org/people/~imbrandon/screenshots/ponies1.png
[08:41] <crimsun> pretty, but it won't fly
[08:42] <imbrandon> lol no it was more of a joke ;P
[08:42] <crimsun> your screenshot is obviously outdated. You need to be running Edgy!
[08:42] <imbrandon> hahah yea i'm on edgy, but the ss is oldish
[08:42] <crimsun> I know, I'm joking of course
[08:42] <imbrandon> Sysinfo for 'voyager': Linux 2.6.17-5-686 running KDE 3.5.3, CPU: Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.93GHz at 2933 MHz (5874 bogomips), HD: 32/182GB, RAM: 607/1003MB, 112 proc's, 1.49h up
[08:42] <nixternal> imbrandon: that wallpaper is horrid
[08:42] <nixternal> my eyeballs just burnt right out of my sockets
[08:43] <crimsun> shush, everyone needs zomgponies.
[08:43] <imbrandon> nah it got lots of votes on -art ML ;P
[08:43] <nixternal> what is that #ubuntu-blind-art
[08:43] <crimsun> my niece will be very displeased to know that she's considered blind ;)
[08:43] <nixternal> rofl
[08:44] <imbrandon> s/zomgponies/z0mgp0niez kthxbye/g
[08:44] <imbrandon> heh yea my daughter loves my little ponies too
[08:44] <nixternal> i couldn't begin to tell you what my daughter would say if that wsa my screeny
[08:44] <imbrandon> she just turned 1 a few days a go so not a real kubuntu user yet though ;)
[08:45] <imbrandon> shhhhh she's back
[08:45] <imbrandon> heya Hobbsee ( looks arround the room )
[08:46] <Hobbsee> hi imbrandon
[08:46] <Hobbsee> hehe
[08:46] <Hobbsee> i am, yes.
[08:46] <Hobbsee> annoying wifi card.
[09:17] <Fujitsu> Gloubiboulga, could you look at another couple of merges for me?
[09:18] <heretician> Any MOTU Mentors around?
[09:18] <Gloubiboulga> Fujitsu, sure, but I'd like to update a package first :)
[09:18] <crimsun> sure, what's up?
[09:18] <Fujitsu> http://people.ubuntu.com.au/~fujitsu/merges, the 4 in the outstanding section need checking and uploading.
[09:18] <nomed> hi all
[09:18] <Fujitsu> Gloubiboulga, whenever you have time :)
[09:19] <Gloubiboulga> Fujitsu, added on my TODO list ;)
[09:19] <Gloubiboulga> hey nomed :)
[09:19] <Hobbsee> hi Gloubiboulga
[09:21] <heretician> So.. What archive are you talking about crimsun? :P
[09:22] <crimsun> the Ubuntu archive, ala http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/
[09:22] <imbrandon> crimsun, have time to upload a merge http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2725 ( its that icewm package )
[09:22] <crimsun> imbrandon: queued.
[09:22] <imbrandon> crimsun, thanks
[09:23] <crimsun> heretician: essentially, just pick a package from http://packages.ubuntu.com/
[09:23] <heretician> LaserJock was right about this being too much at once for me lol.. This is really hard to get all of this stored into my itty bitty brain :P
[09:23] <crimsun> there's no need to try and get it all at once
[09:24] <imbrandon> heretician, yea just try bits at a time, i've been working 2+ months trying to get packing exactly right
[09:24] <imbrandon> ;)
[09:24] <heretician> I dont know if i've caught the complete concept of it yet
[09:24] <imbrandon> actualy a bit more but 2+ months head on
[09:24] <imbrandon> heh
[09:25] <carthik_> It'd be nice to have a "how to identify syncs" and/or "how to merge packages" session at the MOTU School...
[09:25] <crimsun> imbrandon: did you test-build at least?
[09:25] <imbrandon> crimsun, yup
[09:25] <heretician> Yes it would
[09:25] <imbrandon> dident install and test but i build in pbulder
[09:25] <heretician> Or a "Packaging 101" would work
[09:26] <crimsun> imbrandon: it's good practice to test it, too :-)
[09:26] <imbrandon> crimsun, would you like me to install it in a chroot and test ? ok np, will do
[09:26] <carthik_> I promise I will make it into a guid/tutorial, complete with archived copies of the files we used in the session to learn, so up-and-coming vols can always practice with those
[09:27] <heretician> Who usually teaches the sessiosn?
[09:27] <heretician> sessions*
[09:27] <imbrandon> mentors afaik
[09:28] <crimsun> heretician: no sessions yet
[09:28] <heretician> Does apt-get source work with these packages crimsun?
[09:28] <crimsun> heretician: yes.
[09:29] <heretician> Does apt-get source work with most packages a MOTU would be packaging?
[09:29] <crimsun> sure, I could do a how-to merge/sync
[09:29] <heretician> I need a how-to merge, i dont even know what syncing is.
[09:29] <crimsun> we can plan one for this weekend, since this week I'm out for $work
[09:29] <Hobbsee> heretician: packaging 101, there was a thing on how to use debhelper, and what the bits all meant, in MOTU school a while ago
[09:29] <heretician> it seems that every command needs another to work with it
[09:29] <crimsun> heretician: apt-get source requires that the package already be in Ubuntu archives.
[09:30] <heretician> Oh
[09:30] <Hobbsee> heretician: yes, apt-get source does, as long as you're on the same release as what you're intending to package.    And assuming someone else has actually packaged the app you're trying to upgrade/fix
[09:30] <heretician> How do you get the source without it?
[09:30] <Hobbsee> heretician: download the .tar.gz
[09:30] <crimsun> heretician: so if you're trying to package something brand new that's not in the Ubuntu archive, it [apt-get source]  won't work
[09:30] <heretician> Didnt know the source was in there
[09:30] <heretician> wait yes i did
[09:30] <heretician> ./src?
[09:31] <crimsun> heretician: very quickly, let's say that Hobbsee writes a KDE program called kponies.
[09:31] <Hobbsee> haha
[09:31] <crimsun> heretician: she's what we call "upstream" [or to be clearer, "upstream upstream"] 
[09:31] <Hobbsee> yeah yeah, sure...
[09:32] <crimsun> heretician: now let's say imbrandon wants to package kponies for Kubuntu
[09:32] <carthik_> crimsun, seriously, if you will do it, I will attend and write it up - can we set a date this weekend and announce it? (please)
[09:32] <crimsun> heretician: since kponies's source isn't in Kubuntu yet, he would have to download the tarball (kponies-1.0.0.tar.gz) from Hobbsee's Web site
[09:32] <crimsun> carthik_: I'll write something to -motu before I leave work shortly
[09:33] <heretician> this is alot better than these guides.
[09:33] <imbrandon> okie let him finish ;)
[09:33] <carthik_> sure, thanks (sorry)
[09:36] <crimsun> heretician: imbrandon will then go through the packaging process (some variation of what's described in the Packaging Guide for KDE) to generate what we call a "source package", which will be the tarball that he downloaded from Hobbsee's Web site (renamed to kponies_1.0.0.orig.tar.gz), any differences from it containing Kubuntu modifications (called kponies_1.0.0-0ubuntu1.diff.gz), a list of the changes made to the source (kponies_1.0.
[09:36] <crimsun> heretician: the Packaging Guide describes what each component of the source package is
[09:36] <crimsun> (so I'll refer you to that)
[09:37] <crimsun> heretician: now because imbrandon doesn't have upload privileges to the Ubuntu repository (which is the same for Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu), he'll place his newly packaged kponies on REVU (http://revu.tauware.de/)
[09:38] <crimsun> heretician: then he'll politely pester^H^Hask a few MOTU to review his kponies package
[09:39] <Hobbsee> haha.  pester, yes
[09:39] <crimsun> heretician: they'll review it with him, and once it meets a basic set of guidelines and they're happy with it, they'll "advocate" (approve) it. It takes two advocates to upload new packages to the Ubuntu archive.
[09:40] <crimsun> heretician: once the new package is uploaded to the Ubuntu archive, the ftp admins will examine it and hand-approve it.
[09:40] <crimsun> heretician: you might be wondering how stuff ends up in main, universe, or multiverse. By default everything is NEW/accepted into universe.
[09:41] <crimsun> heretician: if there's a specific reason a source package needs to end up in multiverse, which is normally licensing issues, the ftp admins set a server-side override for multiverse (instead of the universe default).
[09:42] <crimsun> heretician: stuff that ends up in main normally needs to be a dependency of something already in main and must have already passed an even more rigourous inspection.
[09:44] <crimsun> heretician: in any case, once the ftp admins accept the new source, the build machines (buildds) create binary packages, and every hour newly built packages are published and synced to the world-wide mirrors you know of.
[09:44] <crimsun> heretician: in a nutshell, that's the first part of the new package lifecycle.
[09:45] <crimsun> heretician: the less glamourous parts are keeping the package current, responding to bug reports, fixing bugs and uploading fixed versions, etc.
[09:46] <heretician> How do I obtain orig.tar.gz and diff.gz files from the tar.gz?
[09:46] <crimsun> heretician: that's the process of generating a Debian [or Ubuntu]  source package
[09:47] <crimsun> heretician: the Packaging Guide describes several ways of doing that
[09:49] <crimsun> heretician: namely you can either generate it by hand by creating the necessary debian/{control,copyright,rules,...} file, or by using an entry tool like dh_make, or by creating a skeleton and relying on debhelper and a build/patch system like cdbs, quilt, and so on to handle the nitty gritty
[09:50] <heretician> autobuild would be a build system correct?
[09:50] <heretician> and uh.. checkinstall being an install system?
[09:50] <imbrandon> crimsun, icewm seems to install and run fine, with all the major bits working, i dont use it day to day so i dont know what all needs testing extensively but all the main components seem to be working fine ( ie menus etc )
[09:51] <crimsun> imbrandon: ok, uploaded.
[09:51] <Hobbsee> heretician: Checkinstall is Extremely Evil (tm)
[09:51] <imbrandon> crimsun, thanks
[09:51] <imbrandon> checkinstall != not good way to distibute packages
[09:51] <heretician> Hobbsee: Yup, so is Alien from what ive heard (from you! :P)
[09:52] <heretician> Bah
[09:52] <Hobbsee> heretician: yeah, true.
[09:52] <heretician> Some people tell me to get it some people tell me not to
[09:52] <crimsun> heretician: autobuild is a build system, yes. Checkinstall is a rudimentary way for people to generate packages for their own systems.
[09:52] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: um, you sure on that?
[09:52] <StevenK> Alien is less evil than checkinstall
[09:52] <Hobbsee> just a little
[09:52] <StevenK> But not much.
[09:52] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, sure on what ?
[09:52] <heretician> Oh, dont want that then
[09:52] <heretician> is cdbs a patch system?
[09:52] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: on checkinstall being not equal to not a good way to distribute packages
[09:53] <imbrandon> cdbs is common debian build system
[09:53] <crimsun> heretician: my personal take is that once you learn the preferred ways of packaging, checkinstall is fairly useless to you.
[09:53] <imbrandon> ohh lol Hobbsee
[09:53] <Hobbsee> :P
[09:53] <heretician> What is the most preferred? Or easiest?
[09:53] <heretician> To generate those files
[09:53] <heretician> And such
[09:54] <imbrandon> heretician, prefered is not the easiest ( dh_make ? )
[09:54] <crimsun> heretician: there are two answers: if it's a Debian package already (ones we sync and merge from our upstream, Debian), then we use what the Debian package uses.
[09:54] <crimsun> heretician: if it's brand new package that you are creating that doesn't already exist in Debian, then you're free to use any of plain debhelper, cdbs, etc.
[09:55] <heretician> How can you tell the different?
[09:55] <crimsun> (so no, we don't use alien or checkinstall to create packages that are uploaded to the Ubuntu archive)
[09:56] <crimsun> heretician: for existing Debian packages, the difference is recognisable in the debian/ infrastructure
[09:56] <StevenK> It's easy to check if they were generated by checkinstall or alien, because they suck and don't think things in the Ubuntu/Debian way.
[09:56] <crimsun> (StevenK is one of the luminaries, since he wrote a tool to check Whether Things Suck)
[09:57] <imbrandon> hehe
[09:57] <imbrandon> alien saved be from packing debootstrap on suse though ;)
[09:57] <imbrandon> alien --to-rpm .... ;P
[09:57] <StevenK> I so didn't.
[09:58] <heretician> So are there guides out for dh_make?
[09:58] <crimsun> heretician: yep. There's even one in the Ubuntu Packaging Guide.
[09:58] <imbrandon> heretician, package guide covers it a bit
[09:59] <heretician> Which Ubuntu Packaging Guide?
[09:59] <heretician> I have about 4 different ones so far
[09:59] <imbrandon> !packageguide
[09:59] <ubotu> I know nothing about packageguide - try searching http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu
[09:59] <imbrandon> err
[09:59] <imbrandon> hold on lol
[09:59] <crimsun> the one accessible via help.ubuntu.com or System> Help> System Documentation
[10:00] <imbrandon>  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C
[10:00] <Hobbsee> hehe @ StevenK and trying to deny everything
[10:01] <heretician> Ahh cool thats the one im on right now
[10:01] <Hobbsee> !packagingguide
[10:01] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[10:01] <Hobbsee> !packageguide is <alias> packagingguide
[10:01] <ubotu> I'll remember that
[10:01] <Hobbsee> !packageguide
[10:01] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[10:01] <Hobbsee> good.
[10:01] <imbrandon> doh i was typin that lol
[10:01] <carthik_> !packaging
[10:02] <carthik_> that worked in a PM a moment ago...
[10:02] <imbrandon> !packaging <alias> packagingguide
[10:02] <Hobbsee> !packaging is <alias> packagingguide
[10:02] <carthik_> still works in a PM... wicked
[10:02] <ubotu> packaging is already known...
[10:02] <Hobbsee> !packaging
[10:02] <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
[10:02] <carthik_> there, ubotu - you tease...
[10:02] <imbrandon> !-packaging
[10:02] <Hobbsee> interesting.
[10:02] <heretician> How do you tell what type of package you should make it? Type of package: single binary, multiple binary, library, kernel module or cdbs?
[10:03] <heretician> (for dh_make
[10:03] <heretician> dh-make )
[10:03] <crimsun> heretician: depends on what the source tarball generates.
[10:03] <heretician> .dsc?
[10:04] <crimsun> heretician: normally, if you're not sure, choose single binary
[10:04] <crimsun> heretician: as you gain familiarity with packaging, you'll know which "type" your specific source will use
[10:05] <crimsun> heretician: when you submit your package to REVU, people will help you in getting the finer points down
[10:06] <crimsun> hehe
[10:06] <heretician> Guess its written in Single Binary hehe//
[10:06] <Hobbsee> has anyone else looked at the horrible amount of uninstallable packages in edgy at the moment?  it's quite horrific!
[10:06] <heretician> How do I change the default maintainer name for dh_make? I'd rather it not be my full name, but my alias
[10:07] <Hobbsee> heh
[10:07] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: you dont have my key, nor my passphrase
[10:07] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, doh
[10:07] <heretician> Thats something else ive been trying to learn
[10:07] <heretician> GPG Keys and stuff..
[10:07] <heretician> Dont know where to start though lol
[10:07] <imbrandon> heretician, there is a great howto on the wiki about gpg keys
[10:07] <heretician> Although it seems that all of the experienced packagers have one
[10:07] <heretician> or two
[10:08] <heretician> For beginners?
[10:08] <imbrandon> yup
[10:08] <imbrandon> !gpg
[10:08] <crimsun> Hobbsee: I think it's rather poetic and beautiful, actually. It keeps the [insane]  users on their feet. =] 
[10:08] <ubotu> gpg is the GNU Privacy Guard.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
[10:08] <Hobbsee> crimsun: hmmm?
[10:09] <Hobbsee> heretician: you need to use your full name for packages.
[10:09] <crimsun> (uninstallable packages)
[10:09] <StevenK> You don't need to. It's recommended.
[10:09] <StevenK> Other people might also shoot you if you don't.
[10:09] <heretician> Er
[10:09] <heretician> how about my default email address?
[10:09] <imbrandon> or take your ponie ride tickets away ;)
[10:09] <heretician> because it says heretician@unknown
[10:09] <imbrandon> heretician, that comes from username @ local computer name
[10:10] <Hobbsee> crimsun: ah yes.  the current count is 1760 or something.
[10:10] <Hobbsee> i think
[10:10] <StevenK> Or the env var $DEBEMAIL
[10:10] <imbrandon> StevenK, NICE /me dident know that
[10:10] <imbrandon> exports that now
[10:10] <crimsun> carthik_: actually dholbach is slated to cover that .. on the 12th
[10:11] <crimsun> (which is past)
[10:11] <heretician> so i just change local computer name to @gmail.com?
[10:11] <Hobbsee> oh good, it's nowhere near that high, i'm just searching wrong.
[10:11] <imbrandon> heretician, nah i would add export DEBEMAIL = <email>
[10:11] <imbrandon> to bashrc
[10:11] <heretician> er
[10:11] <crimsun> carthik_: ok, I see, that date is actually when the topic was suggested/created
[10:11] <heretician> yeah
[10:11] <heretician> i probably would if i knew how
[10:12] <heretician> Care to share your knowledge, imbrandon:)
[10:13] <imbrandon> nano ~/.bashrc and add " export DEBEMAIL = bal@blah.com "
[10:13] <Hobbsee> hehe.  i think you're being ignored there, StevenK
[10:13] <imbrandon> logout and login
[10:13] <StevenK> imbrandon: Bah!
[10:13] <imbrandon> heh
[10:13] <StevenK> imbrandon: Close all terminals and open them
[10:13] <imbrandon> bah ?
[10:14] <StevenK> Logging out and logging back in is slower.
[10:14] <imbrandon> ohh yea or close terms ;)
[10:15] <imbrandon> hehe
[10:15] <Hobbsee> hehe
[10:15] <Hobbsee> bah.  only 706 Uninstallable packages, on i386.
[10:15] <crimsun> bah, not broken enough then.
[10:16] <heretician> What is the GPG Key comment usually used for?
[10:16] <Hobbsee> crimsun: someone with ppc should check - that'd be higher
[10:16] <crimsun> it's probably most broken on ia64
[10:16] <Hobbsee> true
[10:16] <Hobbsee> sarah@sarah:~$ "apt-cache unmet | grep Package | wc -l" is the command to check
[10:16] <imbrandon> Hobbsee, my ppc is in SuSE land atm , i'll check later tonight
[10:16] <imbrandon> ;)
[10:17] <StevenK> SuSE land? Is that being stuck in a small box with a little window?
[10:17] <imbrandon> lol yup
[10:17] <imbrandon> ;P
[10:17] <imbrandon> actualy i was trying to look how kio slave sysinfo SHOULD look so i can get it right on kubuntu
[10:18] <crimsun> carthik_: so in lieu of dholbach covering it in the near future, I'll coordinate with him. He may have other (better) plans.
[10:19] <imbrandon> heretician, one you have it right it should spit it out when you type " echo $DEBEMAIL " in konsole / terminal
[10:21] <heretician> Alrighty thank ya
[10:21] <heretician> Setting up my GPG atm :)
[10:23] <lucas> hi all
[10:24] <Hobbsee> hi lucas
[10:24] <heretician> Whats the secure gpg even used for?
[10:24] <imbrandon> 'ello
[10:24] <Hobbsee> heretician: signing packages and emails, etc
[10:24] <Hobbsee> heretician: making sure that you are who you say you are
[10:24] <imbrandon> heretician, signing email , packages all kinds of things
[10:25] <heretician> Er i mean the private gpg
[10:25] <lucas> heretician: read about public key cryptography
[10:25] <lucas> you always have a private key and a public key
[10:25] <imbrandon> one is public you give yo everyone ( via a key server ) one is private so you can sign things and no one else can with your name )
[10:25] <heretician> The key server i tried to connect to didnt work ;/
[10:26] <lucas> you can use pgp.mit.edu or wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net
[10:26] <heretician> Does both hurt or?
[10:26] <lucas> hurt ?
[10:26] <lucas> ah, no
[10:26] <lucas> they are automatically synchronized once in a while anyway
[10:26] <imbrandon> they will propigate to each other i beleave
[10:27] <heretician> Cool
[10:27] <imbrandon> as will the ubuntu keyserver
[10:27] <imbrandon> etc
[10:28] <heretician> internal keyserver error
[10:30] <heretician> Any other way to send it lol?
[10:31] <crimsun> lucas: pong (much delayed)
[10:32] <lucas> ah :-)
[10:33] <imbrandon> ajmitch, ping
[10:33] <lucas> crimsun: could you have a look at the xastir package someday ?
[10:33] <lucas> you were the last one to touch it, and it's way behind debian now
[10:34] <heretician> I feel so... not-special now.. I'm numbered
[10:34] <crimsun> lucas: I'll do that today; if I haven't touched it by Thurs feel free to take it
[10:35] <heretician> It would be considered correct to go around saying that my name is A8015966
[10:35] <lucas> I am wondering: I sort of missed the switch to this "packages have owners" policy. what were the reasons for it ?
[10:35] <lucas> why is it believe to be more efficient than global team maintenance ?
[10:35] <crimsun> lucas: packages don't have owners
[10:35] <crimsun> lucas: if you want to take it /right now/, by all means, go ahead
[10:36] <lucas> (it was just a theoritical question)
[10:36] <lucas> ok, but is it ok to work on merges of packages which are not "yours" without telling the other motu about it ?
[10:36] <Hobbsee> lucas: so that people dont do the same work twice
[10:37] <lucas> if you base your work on an up to date list, I don't see how this could happen
[10:37] <crimsun> lucas: to avoid duplication, it's best to ping them.
[10:38] <crimsun> lucas: of course if you want to just go ahead with the merges, that's fine, too.
[10:38] <lucas> ok
[10:38] <crimsun> a couple of last-touched haven't really "shown up"
[10:38] <crimsun> they're probably just busy, in which case we'd go through the merges anyhow.
[10:38] <lucas> k
[10:39] <Hobbsee> lucas: iv'e seen it happen a few times - even with an up to date list, as the merges dont happen immediately
[10:39] <Hobbsee> s/merges/syncs/
[10:39] <lucas> yup, but you can check for a bug
[10:40] <crimsun> I literally scan -changes prior to each work
[10:40] <Hobbsee> yeah.  i usually do that.  i just forget to check malone
[10:41] <crimsun> need to scoot to work. tata.
[11:11] <dholbach> good morning
[11:12] <Gloubiboulga_> morning dholbach
[11:12] <dholbach> hey Gloubiboulga_
[11:28] <Arbiter> pff... fglrx doesn't work with 2.6.17
[11:34] <Toadstool> 'morning everybody
[11:37] <NthDegree> here's an unorthodox question
[11:38] <NthDegree> if i made a package of gcc with SSP patched into it, could it be submitted to the universe?
[11:38] <Arbiter> slomo, ping
[11:39] <Arbiter> NthDegree, gcc is a main component... if you want ssp patched into it i think you should ask a -core-dev
[11:39] <Mithrandir> NthDegree: SSP is already enabled in edgy.
[11:40] <NthDegree> Mithrandir, SSP could be a backport in that case then right?
[11:41] <NthDegree> since edgy is a little borked still
[11:41] <Mithrandir> it's non-trivial to backport, I'd say.
[11:41] <NthDegree> well not really
[11:41] <Mithrandir> and useless unless you compile the whole distro with it.
[11:41] <NthDegree> it's an important technology and would boost universe and dapper backports
[11:42] <NthDegree> although I didn't know edgy had it lol
[11:42] <Mithrandir> uh, you're aware that backports generally isn't used for compiling backports, right?
[11:42] <NthDegree> lol
[11:43] <NthDegree> i know what backports are made for, i know backports != BSD ports
[11:44] <NthDegree> brb
[12:15] <slomo> Arbiter: pong
[12:16] <Arbiter> slomo, i'm going to work on libgimp-cil fixes
[12:16] <slomo> Arbiter: ok
[12:16] <Arbiter> should we add a strongname to the assembly?
[12:17] <slomo> Arbiter: is it API/ABI stable? if not, no... if yes, you decide
[12:17] <Arbiter> it's not stable... as i told you yesterday
[12:18] <slomo> then you know the answer already ;) make it not strong named and don't install it into the gac
[12:19] <Arbiter> well
[12:19] <Arbiter> slomo, i'll remove example plugins too (i think it's better)
[12:20] <Arbiter> having precompiled plugins it's not so useful...
[12:20] <Arbiter> (imho)
[12:21] <slomo> Arbiter: put them into /usr/share/doc/$package/examples :) or if they're even marginally useful package them
[12:21] <Arbiter> uhm...
[12:21] <Arbiter> maybe it's better to put the sources of the plugins there...
[12:21] <slomo> right
[01:25] <kelmo> moin all, moin siretart
[01:31] <cbx33> hey SonOfAck
[01:31] <SonOfAck> hiya
[01:36] <Arbiter> ooook... colorscheme package is fixed and builds in pbuilder
[01:37] <cbx33> Arbiter: cool
[01:37] <Arbiter> i need to upload the sources...
[01:37] <cbx33> upload, upload, did you fix the debian issues
[01:38] <Arbiter> wops
[01:38] <Arbiter> i need to make the man page
[01:38] <Arbiter> :/
[01:39] <cbx33> good
[01:44] <Arbiter> it's better to install ccache...
[01:54] <Arbiter> cbx33, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2727
[02:07] <jdmpike> how much overhead would it be to have a i686 repository?
[02:11] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, some files have a different copyright (gcs-debug.cc for example)
[02:11] <Arbiter> heh
[02:12] <Gloubiboulga_> you need to add this in debian/copyright
[02:12] <Arbiter> sure
[02:12] <Gloubiboulga_> and you can remove the last two lines in debian/copyright too
[02:12] <Gloubiboulga_> also, config.{sub,guess} should not appear in the .diff.gz
[02:13] <Arbiter> hm... ok
[02:13] <slomo> Arbiter: look at how cdbs prevents this
[02:13] <Gloubiboulga_> let me check the build before uploading a new package ;)
[02:13] <slomo> (copying orig files to .cdbs-orig and moving back on clean)
[02:13] <cbx33> Arbiter: looks much better
[02:15] <Gloubiboulga_> hm, and maybe I'm wrong but I think that all build deps should be listed on 1 line
[02:15] <Gloubiboulga_> slomo, what do you say?
[02:15] <Arbiter> Gloubiboulga_, only one line?
[02:15] <Arbiter> it's unreadable :P
[02:15] <cbx33> you don't have to read it
[02:16] <cbx33> generally
[02:16] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, yes, but it's grepable
[02:16] <Arbiter> ow
[02:16] <cbx33> :p
[02:16] <Arbiter> i've found another copyright notice (Sun Microsystems)
[02:18] <slomo> Gloubiboulga_: config.{sub,guess} are updated for this package as they should... but obviously this leaves the diff in the diff.gz later. cdbs works around this by making a backup of the original files and moves them back on clean
[02:18] <Gloubiboulga_> hm, debian/dirs is really needed? `make install` creates the dirs
[02:18] <cbx33> Gloubiboulga_: isn't it needed so that dh_install knows where to put things?
[02:18] <Arbiter> debian/dirs <- deleted
[02:19] <Arbiter> ;)
[02:19] <Gloubiboulga_> slomo, yes, I agree with that, I was asking you about the muliple lines for Build-Depends: (it wasn't clear I guess)
[02:20] <slomo> oh...
[02:20] <Gloubiboulga_> cbx33, dh_install will install files listed in a .install file, or files passed as arguments
[02:20] <slomo> build-depends _must_ be one line
[02:20] <Gloubiboulga_> slomo, thanks :)
[02:21] <slomo> iirc lintian says it's an error anyway
[02:22] <cbx33> Gloubiboulga_: ok cool
[02:25] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, and having a manpage would be nice ;)
[02:46] <segfault> Where can i see the deadline for uploading packages for edgy?
[02:47] <Hobbsee> !release
[02:47] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[02:47] <Hobbsee> segfault: ^
[02:49] <segfault> thanks, Sept. 7th.
[02:52] <segfault> anyone? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2217
[02:53] <segfault> is there any way to speed up the revision process?
 Arbiter, and having a manpage would be nice ;) <- check debian/colorscheme.1
[02:58] <Arbiter> :P
[02:59] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, I checked, it's not there
[02:59] <Arbiter> what?
[02:59] <Arbiter> it's not represented in diff.gz?
[03:00] <Gloubiboulga_> nop
[03:00] <Arbiter> mhmhmhm
[03:05] <Gloubiboulga_> segfault, the distro is now edgy, and you could bump Standards-Version to 3.7.2
[03:05] <Gloubiboulga_> segfault, and only 1 new changelog entry is enough I think :)
[03:06] <Arbiter> Gloubiboulga_, i'm upload the updated package... it should be fine
[03:06] <Arbiter> *uploading*
[03:06] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, ok
[03:08] <segfault> glo: yeah, but thats for dapper.i still havent updated it to edgy
[03:09] <Gloubiboulga_> segfault, updated packages now go into edgy
[03:09] <Gloubiboulga_> you can setup an edgy chroot/pbuilder
[03:09] <phanatic> afternoon everyone
[03:09] <Gloubiboulga_> hello phanatic
[03:10] <Arbiter> segfault, or upgrade from dapper -> edgy :D
[03:10] <phanatic> hi Gloubiboulga_
[03:10] <Arbiter> (like me)
[03:11] <segfault> okay
[03:11] <segfault> :)
[03:12] <segfault> anyone following webapps policy manual?
[03:12] <segfault> http://webapps-common.alioth.debian.org/draft-php/txt/PHP-Policy-Manual-DRAFT.txt
[03:14] <Arbiter> Uploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc
[03:14] <Arbiter> ehm...
[03:15] <Arbiter> "we have a problem"
[03:15] <Arbiter> :D
[03:16] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, you have to ping a REVU admin
[03:17] <Arbiter> raphink, ping
[03:17] <Gloubiboulga_> segfault, is this already part of the debain policy?
[03:17] <raphink> hi Arbiter
[03:17] <Arbiter> raphink, hi.. i have a problem with revu
 Uploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc: Error '553 Could not create file.' during ftp transfer of colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc
[03:18] <raphink> Arbiter: I might not have time for it right now
[03:18] <raphink> but ask
[03:19] <quite> what is the safest way for accessing ntfs partitions read/write and how safe is it actually?
[03:19] <raphink> quite: please ask these questios on #ubuntu
[03:20] <Arbiter> raphink, it's an incomplete upload because of my unstable wi-fi connection :P
[03:20] <raphink> I'll have a look Arbiter
[03:20] <quite> raphink: it seems they don't know the answer
[03:20] <Arbiter> raphink, thanks
[03:20] <raphink> Arbiter: try again
[03:20] <raphink> quite:  this is a dev channel
[03:21] <raphink> ask on the forums
[03:21] <Arbiter> Uploading via ftp colorscheme_0.3.91-0ubuntu1.dsc:
[03:21] <Arbiter> yes!
[03:21] <Arbiter> thanks raphink
[03:21] <raphink> :)
[03:21] <raphink> you're weldcome
[03:21] <raphink> welcome
[03:21] <Arbiter> ;)
[03:22] <Arbiter> i'll try to switch to native broadcom drivers after the upload...
[03:27] <Arbiter> Gloubiboulga_, http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2729... it should be fine now
[03:27] <Arbiter> i'll be back soon (hopefully)
[03:28] <quite> raphink: please at least tell me, will edgy support ntfs rw access by default?
[03:28] <Mithrandir> quite: no, it won't.
[03:28] <raphink> quite: no idea, never used windows on my machines ;)
[03:28] <quite> Mithrandir: cool, thanks
[03:29] <Mithrandir> or, I'd be very surprised if we turned it on, since it eats your file systems unless you're very careful.
[03:29] <tseng> Mithrandir: there is talk of a 3rd gen driver that works
[03:29] <tseng> but, its just coming into the light
[03:29] <quite> Mithrandir: it seems your info is outedated. read http://linux-ntfs.org/
[03:29] <tseng> not the kind of thing we are going to throw in and ship
[03:30] <quite> tseng: knoppix does just that, or even more
[03:30] <tseng> knoppix isnt ubuntu
[03:30] <kelmo> quite: it has not proven to be stable, and it must be for something as popular and widespread as ubuntu
[03:30] <quite> tseng: knoppix i don't think edgy is supposed to be more "stable" than knoppix. not after the dapper disappointment, that is.
[03:31] <tseng> sigh
[03:31] <tseng> don't troll me or I'll throw you out
[03:31] <quite> kelmo: something as popular and widespread as ubuntu released dapper, right?
[03:31] <kelmo> quite: you are proving to be full of hot air
[03:31] <kelmo> gn8
[03:32] <quite> tseng: i am not trolling
[03:32] <Toadstool> right...
[03:32] <tseng> your tone was demanding from the very begining
[03:33] <quite> tseng: demanding? you mean my question?
[03:33] <tseng> _at least_ tell me
[03:34] <quite> tseng: i see, i only wanted it to sound like "then"
[03:34] <quite> tseng: "then please tell me..."
[03:34] <quite> or something like it
[03:34] <tseng> words are funny things, I'll let it go
[03:35] <tseng> please move on without the 'knoppix is stable, dapper sucks' line of reasoning
[03:35] <quite> actually i don't know how to make it less demanding
[03:35] <quite> english is not my first language
[03:36] <quite> tseng: i don't even care about knoppix anyway
[03:36] <quite> tseng: anyway, i've just found this: http://linux-ntfs.org/ (the latest news) have you read this?
[03:37] <quite> tseng: or better use this link: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=23836054&forum_id=2697
[03:38] <Mithrandir> quite: we're past the point where we put new upstream versions into Edgy, though.  (With a few exceptions, but still)
[03:38] <quite> Mithrandir: including the ntfs thing?
[03:39] <quite> tseng: just to make sure: doesn't "please" in "please at least tell me..." effectively reduce the demanding appearance of my question (caused by "at least")?
[03:40] <Mithrandir> correct.  So it's probably something which can go into edgy+1, but not edgy.
[03:40] <Toadstool> quite: anyway this would be a -devel question if we weren't in Upstream Version Freeze
[03:40] <quite> Mithrandir: that's too bad :(
[03:41] <quite> Mithrandir: it looks like an important improvement
[03:41] <Mithrandir> quite: we have to make some sacrifices in order to release on time.  That's how Ubuntu works.
[03:41] <quite> Mithrandir: why woulnd't simply replacing the packages be enough?
[03:42] <Mithrandir> quite: it would require regression testing, for one.
[03:45] <phanatic> Arbiter: just checking your new upload
[03:45] <Arbiter> thanks
[03:54] <phanatic> Arbiter: check for new comment ;)
[03:55] <Arbiter> :)
[03:56] <Arbiter> i'll fix that
[03:56] <Arbiter> phanatic, config.{sub,guess}?
[03:57] <phanatic> Arbiter: exactly
[03:57] <Arbiter> well
[04:04] <Spec> so, there's a bug in a program (sobby 0.3.0-2), which causes it to not run, and it's been fixed in debian (sobby 0.3.0-3), there's a bug report already filed -- what else can I do? :)
[04:06] <lucas> wait for edgy, probably ;)
[04:08] <Spec> so it won't be fixed to the +0.0.0-1 version? :-/
[04:08] <FunnyLookinHat> Did anyone else get a kernel update today?  2.6.15-26?   I already had it installed and it just "updated" my kernel to it again today.
[04:08] <FunnyLookinHat> Strange package release...   : P
[04:09] <slomo> FunnyLookinHat: it was a security update
[04:10] <FunnyLookinHat> Ahh ok.
[04:11] <Arbiter> phanatic, updated
[04:11] <Arbiter> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2730
[04:12] <phanatic> Arbiter: looks okay to me. i just cannot advocate it :(
[04:19] <ryanakca> away
[04:19] <Gloubiboulga_> phanatic, I did it for you ;)
[04:20] <phanatic> Gloubiboulga_: thanks :)
[04:22] <Arbiter> one more advocate before upload, right? :D
[04:23] <phanatic> Arbiter: yeah
[04:23] <phanatic> it won't be difficult to get i think :)
[04:24] <Arbiter> phanatic, i can start a "call for advocates" :D
[04:24] <phanatic> Arbiter: you need only one, so that will be easy :)
[04:24] <Arbiter> ;)
[05:04] <Spec> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2731 advocate! advocate! :p
[05:06] <ryanakca> hmmm... I'm getting some funny errors when running pbuilder: http://pastebin.ca/91310     kindof like these:       warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; using uid of process (0)
[05:06] <ryanakca> lol
[05:07] <ryanakca> package still builds and all... just wondering about those errors/warnings... safe to ignore?
[05:08] <Arbiter> uff... fglrx is broken with kernels >= 2.6.17
[05:08] <Gloubiboulga_> Spec, I think the '0.0' in sistpoty's comment was actually an example :)
[05:09] <Gloubiboulga_> you can use 1.1+CVS-<date>-0ubuntu1
[05:10] <Gloubiboulga_> and the third paragraph of the copyright header is missing in debian/copyright
[05:10] <Gloubiboulga_> (with the FSF address :)
[05:11] <Arbiter> i *hate* fglrx
[05:11] <Arbiter> i *hate* ati
[05:11] <Arbiter> pfff :/
[05:11] <Spec> Gloubiboulga_: there isn't any real version number for the program though -.-
[05:12] <Gloubiboulga_> not at all?
[05:12] <Gloubiboulga_> it's not been released yet?
[05:13] <Gloubiboulga_> your first upload version is 1.2, that's why I suggested the 1.1 version
[05:13] <Gloubiboulga_> but if it has no version at all 0.0 is fine
[05:13] <Spec> yeap, it's from cvs only in dev
[05:14] <Gloubiboulga_> ok
[05:14] <Arbiter> Gloubiboulga_, uhm... a question (not related to packaging)
[05:14] <Gloubiboulga_> add the missing paragraph and you have my advocate :)
[05:15] <Spec> meh, my mini-dinstall isn't liking my edgy repo
[05:15] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, I'll try to answer ;)
[05:15] <Arbiter> where's the best place to submit bugs for edgy? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/edgy/+bugs? :D
[05:15] <Toadstool> nope
[05:15] <Toadstool> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
[05:16] <Arbiter> ah ok, general bts
[05:16] <Toadstool> ;)
[05:16] <Gloubiboulga_> Arbiter, but you can tell the ubuntu version you use in your report :)
[05:16] <Gloubiboulga_> no, you *have to* :p
[05:16] <Toadstool> indeed :)
[05:17] <Arbiter> Gloubiboulga_, obviously
[05:18] <Toadstool> Arbiter: /distros/ubuntu/{dapper,edgy,random_name} is used by devs' as a milestone when they want a particular bug fixed in a particular release FYI
[05:18] <Hawkwind> Can someone please tell me what the dput command is to upload to REVU ?  Seems I've lost the page that tells this and I've only done it once :(
[05:19] <Arbiter> Hawkwind, dput -f revu *_source.changes
[05:20] <Spec> Gloubiboulga_: where's the missing paragraph?
[05:20] <Spec> wait, nevermind :-/
[05:20] <Gloubiboulga_> Spec, in debian/copyright
[05:21] <Gloubiboulga_> actually, it isn't in debian/copyright :)
[05:21] <Spec> i know :)
[05:21] <Spec> but it will be :p
[05:21] <Gloubiboulga_> great
[05:22] <Spec> i'm an idiot
[05:23] <Spec> my own repo doesn't automagically build src packages, i have to upload the binaries :-/
[05:23] <Spec> stupid revu spoiling me
[05:23] <Toadstool> is bazaar.launchpad.net slow for you guys too?
[05:23] <Arbiter> bug 53354
[05:23] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53354 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.17 "[Edgy]  linux-restricted-modules-2.6.17 & xorg-driver-fglrx - fglrx kernel module is broken" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53354
[05:24] <Arbiter> done :D
[05:24] <Gloubiboulga_> Toadstool, yes...
[05:24] <Toadstool> that's really annoying
[05:25] <Spec> very slow
[05:25] <Toadstool> pushing the upstream branch for freevo took 10 minutes...
[05:25] <Spec> it ends up going to launchpad?
[05:26] <imbrandon> Hawkwind, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU?highlight=%28dput%29
[05:27] <Hawkwind> Arbiter: Thank you very much :)
[05:27] <Arbiter> :)
[05:27] <Hawkwind> imbrandon: Ahhh thanks.  Got it bookmarked now
[05:27] <imbrandon> np
[05:28] <imbrandon> siretart, ping
[05:29] <Arbiter> do we have a comfortable tool for editing wiki pages?
[05:29] <imbrandon> Arbiter, keyboard ;)
[05:29] <Arbiter> imbrandon, :Prrrr
[05:29] <zul> in other wrods no
[05:29] <imbrandon> heh
[05:29] <Arbiter> the web interface is everything but comfortable :P
[05:30] <Spec> Is there a java-vim that can be embedded into wikis?
[05:30] <imbrandon> any revu admins arround ?
[05:30] <Spec> or perhaps FCKeditor
[05:30] <Arbiter> in order to edit this page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates) i need to copy&paste the text in gedit, modify it and then re-copy&paste the text
[05:30] <Arbiter> :P
[05:32] <Spec> i read the quit message :-/
[05:32] <siretart> imbrandon: huh?
[05:33] <imbrandon> siretart, can you ( or tell me howot ) mark all my packages on revu archived, they have all ben uploaded
[05:34] <siretart> imbrandon: I'd suggest writing a python script, which does appropriate sql statements. seriously, thats missing functionality :(
[05:34] <imbrandon> very true ;)
[05:35] <Arbiter> i need only one more advocate for colorscheme package... anyone interested? :D
[05:35] <imbrandon> so currently there is no way to dao it ?
[05:35] <imbrandon> s/dao/do
[05:41] <Spec> how often does revu process it's queue?
[05:42] <Arbiter> 5 min afaik
[05:43] <Spec> hmm, it grabbed my username@hostname for my e-mail address, how do I fix this?
[05:43] <Spec> d'oh, nevermind
[05:52] <Gloubiboulga_> Spec, advocated
[05:53] <Spec> i have to upload a new version  :p
[05:53] <Spec> i put my wrong e-mail ... i don't have an account on revu for @ubuntu.com, only for @gmail.com
[05:54] <Gloubiboulga_> that's not a problem, you can use your ubuntu.com address
[05:54] <Gloubiboulga_> and recover your passwd for it
[05:54] <Hawkwind> If there is already a 'xchat' listing on REVU that I uploaded for the last version that I built a month or so back, how do I get the new version to show up on REVU that I just uploaded about 20 minutes ago ?
[05:57] <Gloubiboulga_> Hawkwind, it should be listed on REVU, are you sure that the upload worked?
[05:57] <Hawkwind> Gloubiboulga_: It said it did
[05:57] <Spec> Gloubiboulga_: it couldn't recover a password for ubuntu.com address
[05:58] <Spec> Gloubiboulga_: it was just blank ... so i reuploaded it as @gmail.com, now i can add comments, etc, and lintian doesn't think it's an NMU anymore
[05:58] <Hawkwind> Gloubiboulga_: http://pastebin.ca/91387
[05:58] <Spec> Gloubiboulga_: care to advocate?
[05:58] <Gloubiboulga_> Spec, sure
[05:59] <Gloubiboulga_> Hawkwind, yes, it's uploaded but stuck in the incoming dir... you have to ping a REVU admin, I can't help you
[05:59] <Hawkwind> Gloubiboulga_: Ahhh
[06:00] <Hawkwind> Any REVU admins around by chance that can do something with my xchat-2.6.6 packages by chance ?
[06:04] <Spec> if you know the password to a router (admin/admin), and you are practically given an IP (wifi/dhcp), it's legal to log in and do whatever pleases you, correct?
[06:04] <sharms2> I suppose to depends on your country
[06:07] <Hawkwind> Gloubiboulga_: How long does it stay in the incoming dir before it moves on or does it have to be manually pushed out ?
[06:08] <Gloubiboulga_> Hawkwind, the cron job runs every 5 minutes
[06:08] <Gloubiboulga_> it should be published already
[06:08] <Hawkwind> Hmmm, well it's been almost 30 minutes :(
[06:09] <Gloubiboulga_> maybe raphink can push it manually if he has time :)
[06:09] <Hawkwind> raphink: Ping
[06:12] <LaserJock> morning MOTU world
[06:12] <Hawkwind> Hey there LaserJock
[06:12] <Toadstool> heya LaserJock
[06:13] <Gloubiboulga_> hi LaserJock
[06:14] <sharms2> howdy LJ
[06:14] <LaserJock> how is everybody doing today? busy, busy, busy I hope :-)
[06:14] <Arbiter`> heheheh moring... its 6:15 pm here :D
[06:15] <Arbiter> s/moring/morning/
[06:15] <LaserJock> then good evening to you
[06:15] <Arbiter> :D
[06:16] <LaserJock> slomo: hmm, I didn't realize we were supposed to archive after uploading. Thanks.
[06:16] <Arbiter> who wants advocate this package? :D (http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2730)
[06:17] <slomo> LaserJock: ?
[06:17] <LaserJock> slomo: sorry, that was supposed to be to sistpoty
[06:18] <LaserJock> for some stupid reason I associate your nick with his email address :(
[06:18] <slomo> LaserJock: np :)
[06:18] <LaserJock> even though your email address is pretty clearly yours ;-)
[06:30] <raphink> Hawkwind: what's the matter,
[06:31] <Hawkwind> raphink: I uploaded xchat 2.6.6 but it's not showing on the REVU page.  Gloubiboulga_ mentioned it's stuck in the incoming directory possibly or something
[06:31] <raphink> let's see
[06:32] <raphink> Hawkwind: please make sure you used the -S -sa switches with debuild
[06:32] <raphink> and upload again ;)
[06:32] <raphink> so that you don't upload the deb ;)
[06:34] <raphink> alright Hawkwind?
[06:35] <Hawkwind> raphink: Okies.  Doing it now.  Thought I had used the -S -sa but I guess maybe I didn't
[06:35] <raphink> no you didn't :)
[06:35] <raphink> ;)
[06:36] <Hawkwind> Checksum doesn't match for /home/hawkwind/debbuild/xchat_2.6.6-0ubuntu1.dsc
[06:36] <Hawkwind> Now I'm getting that when I do dput
[06:39] <Arbiter> but.. but... xchat 2.6.6?? why don't wait that the official debian maintainer updates the package?
[06:42] <Hawkwind> Arbiter: If it's pointless for me to build it then I guess I will.  I was hoping to get it into the distro quicker rather than waiting on it to be done by the debian maintainer
[06:45] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:45] <LaserJock> that's somewhat of a sticky situation
[06:46] <LaserJock> because if you put it into Ubuntu then we'll have to merge things later
[06:46] <LaserJock> for things like that you might even be better off sending the Debian maintainer your package
[06:47] <Hawkwind> How can I find out who the debian maintainer is to send him the info ?
[06:47] <imbrandon> it should be in the debain/copyright of the package
[06:47] <LaserJock> rather debian/control
[06:47] <imbrandon> err yea
[06:47] <imbrandon> sorry ;)
[06:47] <imbrandon> thanks LaserJock
[06:48] <imbrandon> ;P
[06:48] <LaserJock> shesh, newbs ;-)
[06:48] <imbrandon> hahaha
[06:48] <imbrandon> how go's it today LaserJock ;)
[06:48] <Hawkwind> Ahhh, that's the file I was looking for :)
[06:49] <LaserJock> imbrandon: fine, trying to not get distracted
[06:49] <imbrandon> heh
[06:49] <LaserJock> my goal for today: make fink's emacs on OSX play nice
[06:50] <imbrandon> ahh
[06:50] <zul> i dont know what to cringe about first emacs or osx :)
[06:50] <imbrandon> failed miserably
[06:50] <LaserJock> zul: just cringe at both
[06:50] <LaserJock> emacs works fine
[06:50] <zul> LaserJock: yeah that would be easier
[06:51] <LaserJock> but when I install -el packages some of them are found when I start emacs
[06:51] <LaserJock> really odd
[06:51] <imbrandon> zul, dont like osx ? hehe
[06:51] <zul> i dont mind it...
[06:51] <LaserJock> but if there is a superior open-source alternative ...
[06:53] <cypher1> imbrandon, cool!
[06:53] <cypher1> imbrandon, how did you do that ?
[06:54] <imbrandon> load ubuntu as the main os, load suse in a chroot ( install into a dir from the cd ) start a new x session and export display :1 for suse , then run mol ( ppc only ) and have it display osx on vt9 ;)
[06:54] <imbrandon> semi simple ;P
[06:55] <zul> and you have too much time on your hands ;)
[06:55] <imbrandon> heh
[06:55] <slomo> semi simple and semi useful ;)
[06:55] <cypher1> imbrandon, and i guess too much disk space ;)
[06:56] <imbrandon> usefull to try to get things like kio-sysinfo from suse working on ubuntu and play media from itunes in osx ;)
[06:56] <cypher1> :)
[06:56] <imbrandon> so i guess usefull to me ;)
[06:56] <cypher1> yes i guess it will be useful for many
[06:58] <imbrandon> that and the "cool" factor at lug meetings to have 3 os's run native on diffrent vt's ;)
[06:58] <imbrandon> lol
[06:59] <imbrandon> s/"cool"/"geek"/g
[07:05] <zul> i know a guy at a lug who carry around car batteries around him for his VR stuff
[07:05] <zul> he thought he was cool :)
[07:05] <imbrandon> heh
[07:05] <mukund> anyone who's committed to realising his/her dream is cool
[07:06] <LaserJock> speaking of that, I wonder what jdub is up to
[07:07] <mukund> that also reminds me of the breakfast joke
[07:07] <mukund> the chicken was involved, while the pig was committed
[07:11] <cypher1> has anyone faced any problem during 'debsign' during doing a 'sudo debuild -S' ?
[07:11] <zul> nope
[07:12] <cypher1> it is not asking for the secret key/passphrase
[07:12] <sladen> cypher1: does GPG have your secret key
[07:12] <sladen> cypher1: do you use ssh-agent?
[07:12] <cypher1> sladen, no i do not use ssh-agent
[07:13] <LaserJock> cypher1: why are you using sudo?
[07:13] <cypher1> LaserJock, is that the problem ?
[07:13] <cypher1> let me try without sudo
[07:13] <sladen> cypher1: argh!  why are you using sudo to build something?!
[07:14] <sladen> cypher1: either use fakeroot, or just let debuild use fakeroot automatically
[07:14] <cypher1> sladen, hmm debuild gave me error
[07:14] <sladen> cypher1: what error did debuild give you?
[07:14] <LaserJock> cypher1: general rule: you shouldn't use sudo for packaging
[07:16] <cypher1> sladen, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18281
[07:16] <cypher1> LaserJock, but one of the option mentioned in the error by debuild is run as root
[07:16] <sladen> cypher1: see the bit that says  "install the fakeroot package,"  ?
[07:17] <cypher1> sladen, yes i did see that but it also said "or run me as root!" in the end
[07:17] <cypher1> and i followed it
[07:17] <cypher1> sladen, i will now install fakeroot
[07:17] <LaserJock> you picked the wrong side of the or ;-)
[07:18] <sladen> okay.  If somebody ever tells you to jump off a cliff (I mean run something as root), think lots and find the way that doesn't require doing that
[07:18] <cypher1> LaserJock, :D yes..
[07:18] <cypher1> sladen, :)
[07:19] <tuxmaniac> cypher1> are you following the Ubuntu packaging guide or Debain New maintainer guide only na?
[07:19] <tuxmaniac> LaserJock> wasssup?!!!!!!!!!!
[07:19] <LaserJock> tuxmaniac: neither, I think
[07:19] <LaserJock> tuxmaniac: hi dude
[07:20] <tuxmaniac> LaserJock> so whats up with you work. Anything interesting?
[07:21] <LaserJock> not so much, we are learning how to attach laser dyes to thin films (aka, 1 molecule thick) attached to glass
[07:21] <LaserJock> hmm, yes
[07:21] <cypher1> LaserJock, i followed Ubuntu packing guide.. probably i might have missed something
[07:21] <tuxmaniac> LaserJock> aah goody.. Sounds very interesting. Learning the theory or some practical stuff also?
[07:22] <LaserJock> tuxmaniac: all practical, we aren't a theoretical lab ;-)
[07:22] <LaserJock> we stumble around ;-)
[07:23] <tuxmaniac> cypher1> seems like you dont have a key created. have you got one?
[07:23] <LaserJock> cypher1: well I'm pretty sure I never said to run debuild using sudo and I think fakeroot should have been mentioned in there. Let me know if that isn't the case
[07:24] <cypher1> tuxmaniac, yes even with fakeroot i got the error i am looking for what i had done wrong
[07:24] <cypher1> LaserJock, sure.. thanks
[07:30] <sladen> cypher1: what error are you getting now?
[07:31] <sladen> cypher1: did you unpack the source using sudo?  (You shouldn't)
[07:33] <ryanakca> hmmm... I'm getting some funny errors when running pbuilder: http://pastebin.ca/91310     kindof like these:       warning: no utmp entry available and LOGNAME not defined; using uid of process (0)
[07:33] <ryanakca> package still builds and all... just wondering about those errors/warnings... safe to ignore?
[07:33] <LaserJock> I think so
[07:37] <ryanakca> LaserJock: goodies...
[07:42] <ryanakca> I uploaded typespeed to revu a couple of weeks ago, to reupload, dput -f typespeed_0.5.1-1_source.changes       ?
[08:04] <LaserJock> hmmpf
[08:11] <zul> hmm?
[08:11] <ryanakca> LaserJock: how do you create .pot files for c scripts... ex, typespeed... xgettext doesn't seem to output anything...
[08:11] <LaserJock> zul: I'm wondering at the forums
[08:11] <LaserJock> ryanakca: I'm not really sure
[08:12] <zul> LaserJock: oh yes the lovely forums
[08:12] <LaserJock> I've only done docbook
[08:12] <LaserJock> zul: it seems 6 forum staff have been fired or resigned in the last couple days
[08:12] <ryanakca> hmmm... anybody know how to create a .pot file for rosetta from *.c files/apps?
[08:12] <cbx33> Hi guys
[08:13] <slomo> ryanakca: do you use automake/autoconf for your build system? or something handmade?
[08:14] <imbrandon> LaserJock, ubuntuforms.org or kubuntuforums.net ?
[08:14] <LaserJock> ubuntuforums.org
[08:14] <imbrandon> ouch
[08:15] <LaserJock> I didn't know there was a kubuntu specific one
[08:15] <cbx33> I'm looking at edubuntu-artwork
[08:15] <imbrandon> LaserJock, not many do ;(
[08:15] <cbx33> it uses cdbs - and has loads of makefiles dotted around
[08:15] <ryanakca> slomo: I think it uses make since I edited a Makefile... ./configure && make && make install... I downloaded typespeed off the web and am packaging it :) http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2439
[08:15] <cbx33> one in like every directory
[08:15] <LaserJock> imbrandon: well, I would think it would be in ubuntuforums.org
[08:15] <mukund> ryanakca: if the project uses autotools, you can cd po/ && make <projectname>.pot
[08:16] <LaserJock> I hate it when everything gets all split up
[08:16] <cbx33> I'm not too hot on makefiles at the mo
[08:16] <imbrandon> LaserJock, should be  i agree
[08:16] <cbx33> but is it cdbs that created them?
[08:16] <Arbiter> ehr... who's daemon@poleboy.de?
[08:16] <slomo> ryanakca: oh then you want to add complete gettext support to it? ;) that doesn't make much sense unless you're upstream
[08:16] <LaserJock> sistpoty
[08:16] <slomo> Arbiter: sistpoty
[08:16] <LaserJock> not slomo ;-)
[08:16] <Arbiter> gh
[08:16] <Arbiter> * debian/copyright: you miss the license in src/core/compat-round.{cc,h}
[08:16] <ryanakca> mukund: slomo: make: *** No rule to make target `typespeed.pot'.  Stop.
[08:17] <mukund> ryanakca: do you have a po/ directory ?
[08:17] <Arbiter> SunPro it's a Sun Microsystem business
[08:17] <Arbiter> i've added Sun Microsystems in debian/correctly.. (i think)
[08:17] <ryanakca> slomo: I guess so.. I'm not very sure of what I'm doing... I'm just trying to get it set up so that rosetta can translate it :)...
[08:17] <ryanakca> mukund: I ran: mkdir ./po/
[08:17] <Arbiter> do i need to add both Sun Microsystems && SunPro?
[08:18] <slomo> ryanakca: it can't be translated unless you add gettext support for it which shouldn't be done on the packaging side but upstream
[08:18] <mukund> ryanakca: heh, no  wanted to know if the upstream package already did.. it has more than a blank directory
[08:18] <slomo> ryanakca: and in which Makefile does this error happen?
[08:18] <Arbiter> fixed...
[08:19] <ryanakca> slomo: the only one... typespeed-0.5.1/Makefile :)
[08:19] <ryanakca> slomo: source is here: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2439
[08:19] <slomo> ryanakca: when you type "make"? the file isn't referenced there
[08:20] <mukund> ryanakca: http://www.gnome.org/~malcolm/i18n/
[08:20] <mukund> applicable to non-gnome projects too
[08:20] <mukund> http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/gnome-i18n/developer.html <- that is a good read as well
[08:21] <slomo> ryanakca: builds fine for me here... anyway, you don't want to add translation support to it :P talk to upstream about it or provide upstream a patch for it :)
[08:21] <ryanakca> hmmm... I think I'll just bug upstream...
[08:21] <ryanakca> looks much simpler than messing around with it myself :)
[08:23] <slomo> ryanakca: and it will be a pain to maintain a package with such patch over a long time so you would push it upstream anyway ;)
[08:29] <tortoise_> could anyone help me package my python app?
[08:31] <cbx33> tortoise_, I can try and help
[08:31] <cbx33> I recently pacakged one
[08:32] <LaserJock> tortoise_: have you read the Ubuntu Packaging Guide at help.ubuntu.com?
[08:32] <tortoise_> I'm just reading it now
[08:33] <LaserJock> great
[08:33] <cbx33> that was gonna be my first pointer
[08:33] <cbx33> the packaging guide RULES !
[08:48] <LaserJock> wow, and I thought Ubuntu had it's share of trolls: http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/KickbanXahLeeFromEmacsChannel
[08:48] <sharms2> I am considered a troll I suppose :)
[08:49] <LaserJock> not that I'm aware of
[08:50] <sharms2> give me time?
[08:50] <LaserJock> I hope not
[08:50] <sharms2> :)
[08:50] <LaserJock> I seriously never want to have to ban anyone
[08:51] <tseng> I used to ban bluefoxicy daily
[08:51] <LaserJock> that's why I don't hang out in #ubuntu ;-)
[08:51] <tseng> to shut him up
[08:51] <LaserJock> I bet
[08:51] <tseng> too bad about the CoC
[08:51] <LaserJock> ?
[08:51] <tseng> I have to act nice
[08:51] <LaserJock> hehe
[08:52] <sharms2> tseng: I read something about you being mean today somewhere
[08:52] <sharms2> trying to dig it up
[08:52] <tseng> sharms2: haha nice
[08:52] <LaserJock> hehe, whiprush's blog
[08:52] <tseng> oh.
[08:52] <tseng> hahah
[08:52] <sharms2> lol
[08:52] <tseng> I didnt actually say that
[08:53] <sharms2> taken out of context?
[08:53] <dolson> stupid tornados...
[08:53] <tseng> no, I never said it at all
[08:53] <tseng> its a joke
[08:53] <sharms2> ah well now the internet has ruined it
[08:53] <tseng> i think it was for me
[08:54] <bluefoxicy> heh
[08:54] <LaserJock> tseng: to bad, I can imagine you saying it ;-)
[08:54] <bluefoxicy> tseng you know I am still banned in #-hardened/
[08:54] <tseng> bluefoxicy: haha nice.
[08:54] <bluefoxicy> they eventually got tired of me talking
[08:54] <tseng> LaserJock: I *could* have said it
[08:54] <tseng> LaserJock: but not to jorge
[08:54] <bluefoxicy> but that's okay, I emerge sync'd 2 hours ago and I'm at 70% of rebuilding the portage cache
[08:54] <bluefoxicy> and by 2 hours ago I mean the tree finished downloading 2 hours ago and has been rebuilding the portage cache ever since.
[08:54] <LaserJock> tseng: yeah, he seems too nice for that
[08:56] <tseng> I wouldnt say anything that mean directly to someone unless they were insanely clue resistant
[08:56] <tseng> there certainly have been a few of those.
[08:56] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  link plz
[08:57] <tseng> bluefoxicy: struct* bluefoxicy;
[08:57] <bluefoxicy> lol
[08:57] <tseng> oh, the blog? :)
[08:57] <tseng> http://www.whiprush.org/2006/07/pocket_full_of_.html#comment-19909603
[08:57] <dholbach> i call it a day - have a nice evening
[08:57] <tseng> bye dholbach !
[08:57] <sharms2> have a good one
[08:57] <LaserJock> cya dholbach, did Mentors look ok to you?
[08:58] <dholbach> LaserJock: yeah
[08:58] <dholbach> good work
[08:58] <LaserJock> k, I'll try to work on some others too
[08:58] <LaserJock> we should announce a School session soon
[08:58] <bluefoxicy> tseng hahahahaha
[08:58] <Gloubiboulga_> LaserJock, yes, that'd be nice :)
[08:58] <cbx33> oooh
[08:59] <LaserJock> dholbach: should we dicuss topic/time on the ML?
[08:59] <dholbach> yep
[08:59] <LaserJock> I can do the first one if you guys want
[08:59] <LaserJock> if nobody else wants to do it
[08:59] <zul> what is the first one?
[09:00] <LaserJock> I don't know, we'll have to see
[09:00] <LaserJock> we've got a requests page
[09:00] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  I'm sure I can come up with worse things, or at least take them out of context and make them look worse
[09:00] <LaserJock> but my feeling is we just need to *start*
[09:00] <LaserJock> then we can move forward
[09:01] <tseng> bluefoxicy: im sure you could
[09:29] <Gloubiboulga_> LaserJock, with what session should we start?
[09:29] <Gloubiboulga_> merges? source packages?
[09:29] <LaserJock> Gloubiboulga_: what would you suggest?
[09:29] <Gloubiboulga_> merges I think
[09:30] <LaserJock> it's kinda hard to do merges if you don't know *anything* about packaging
[09:30] <Gloubiboulga_> that's true
[09:30] <LaserJock> but it is the most immediatly applicable
[09:30] <LaserJock> and needed
[09:30] <Gloubiboulga_> yes
[09:30] <Gloubiboulga_> I suggested the 'source packages' session but it could be merged with an other one
[09:30] <crimsun> but how much do you really need to know about packaging to merge/sync?
[09:31] <Gloubiboulga_> there's not much to say
[09:31] <LaserJock> crimsun: not much, I don't think
[09:31] <crimsun> for the vast majority of MoM/universe, you're checking debian/{control,rules}
[09:31] <LaserJock> I learned a lot by doing merges
[09:31] <LaserJock> it's also good to get people into the flow of MOTU work
[09:31] <LaserJock> and gives them some quick feedback
[09:32] <cbx33> but I'm too excited about development at the moment :p
[09:34] <LaserJock> one topic that I'd like to see is a "package building timeline" that shows what happens from the time you run dh-make to when the .deb hits the mirrors
[09:35] <LaserJock> not a howto
[09:35] <cbx33> LaserJock, that would be an interesting topic
[09:35] <LaserJock> but answering stuff like, what does dpkg-buildpackage do? what happens after a package is uploaded?
[09:37] <crimsun> that's probably to be covered in the soyuz part
[09:37] <crimsun> at least it would make sense
[09:38] <crimsun> granted I did run through that this morning around 3:30 AM localtime w/ heretician
[09:38] <LaserJock> ah good
[09:38] <imbrandon> ;)
[09:38] <crimsun> kponies and everything.
[09:38] <imbrandon> kponies ftw
[09:39] <imbrandon> heh
[09:39] <LaserJock> I just remember one of the things that took me a while to get a handle on at first was that everything should be installed into /debian/<packagename>/
[09:39] <LaserJock> because I didn't really understand what debuild -S was doing
[09:40] <crimsun> (depending on dh compat version)
[09:40] <Toadstool> re
[09:40] <crimsun> err, there's TB in 20 mins, no?
[09:40] <imbrandon> yea i think so
[09:41] <imbrandon> ( tb )
[09:41] <LaserJock> well, I mean I didn't get that you wouldn't install to /usr
[09:41] <crimsun> k I'm off for coffee, bb in 20
[09:43] <imbrandon> yup its in 20 minutes , its the one hobbsee is going for motu ;)
[09:43] <LaserJock> \o/
[09:43] <zul> oh yesh...totoally forgot about that
[09:43] <imbrandon> LaserJock, you mean i cants install in /opt/<package> </sarcasim>
[09:43] <LaserJock> we need to overwhelm the TB with cheerleading
[09:43] <imbrandon> LaserJock, right on
[09:44] <LaserJock> imbrandon: hmm, some do actually
[09:44] <imbrandon> they do ? wow
[09:44] <LaserJock> multiverse packages
[09:44] <imbrandon> ahh yea , dident think about those
[09:44] <Toadstool> if anyone wants to be part of my fanclub after cheerleading for Hobbsee... :)
[09:44] <lucas> ah, Hobbsee is not a motu yet ?
[09:44] <LaserJock> Toadstool: you going too?
[09:44] <Toadstool> yep
[09:44] <imbrandon> lucas, not for 20+ minutes ;)
[09:44] <LaserJock> Toadstool: have I sponsored anything for you?
[09:45] <Toadstool> I think so
[09:45] <Toadstool> though I can't remember what
[09:45] <LaserJock> hmm, if you can figure out what I can attempt to make an intelligent statment on your behalf ;-)
[09:45] <imbrandon> Toadstool, i can cheer that you have helped me learn a bit here and there by proxie ( asking motu's questions that i dident know either heheh )
[09:45] <Toadstool> heh thx :)
[09:47] <Toadstool> LaserJock: iirc you uploaded my ghemical ftbfs-for-64bit-archs fix :)
[09:47] <LaserJock> ah, k. I'll try to review a little before the meeting
[09:51] <imbrandon> there she is ;)
[09:52] <Hobbsee> morning all!
[09:52] <Hobbsee> hehe
[09:52] <Toadstool> hey Hobbsee
[09:52] <Hobbsee> hi Toadstool
[09:53] <Gloubiboulga_> hi Hobbsee
[09:53] <Hobbsee> hey Gloubiboulga_ :)
[09:58] <LaserJock> crimsun: quick, I need a pony pic :-)
[10:13] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: hah, whatever for?
[10:13] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: i do actually have the link to one
[10:14] <crimsun> congrats Sarah
[10:14] <LaserJock> ah, there was a guy in #emacs who wanted a good IMAP client for emacs... and a pony
[10:14] <Hobbsee> crimsun: thanks :)
[10:19] <Hawkwind> Hobbsee: Congrats!
[10:19] <StevenK> LaserJock: wanderlust
[10:19] <Hobbsee> Hawkwind: thankyou :D
[10:31] <crimsun> congrats Toadstool
[10:32] <Toadstool> thanks crimsun ;)
[10:32] <Gloubiboulga_> 2 more MOTUs, that's really nice :)
[10:32] <Toadstool> yay!
[10:32] <slomo> congrats Toadstool and Hobbsee :)
[10:32] <LaserJock> wahoo!
[10:32] <crimsun> Toadstool got the rough questions
[10:32] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock:  Got some more information, moving topic here since tracer/beagle are mostly universe thoughts.
[10:32] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: about time. :-P
[10:32] <crimsun> the virtually unanswerable ones, that is
[10:32] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: hehe!  i kinda wanted them to do me for main as well...
[10:32] <bluefoxicy> You would need two nautilus - one for Beagle and one for tracker. The Nautilus maintainer will not export an interface for plug-ins just yet as he's not happy the current nautilus search is ABI stable enough.
[10:32] <bluefoxicy> Debian can of course support having two nautilus - a nautilus-tracker and a nautilus-beagle packages. Im afraid at the moment thats the only way it can be done.
[10:33] <Mithrandir> LaserJock: congrats to you too.
[10:33] <Toadstool> crimsun: heh
[10:33] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: just in time for bugday!
[10:33] <LaserJock> Mithrandir: me?
[10:33] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: yay, nice!
[10:33] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock:  ^^^ so says Jamie.
[10:33] <Mithrandir> LaserJock: uh, sorry, meant Toadstool
[10:33] <Toadstool> Mithrandir: thanks
[10:34] <LaserJock> bluefoxicy: that's kinda stinky
[10:34] <Gloubiboulga_> good night all
[10:34] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i just didnt want to be rejected, you know
[10:34] <LaserJock> lucas, Toadstool: do you think Ubuntu education help?
[10:34] <Hobbsee> slomo: :)
[10:34] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock:  basically he's saying that apparently the ABI keeps changing so they are forcing things to be compiled into nautilus instead of as plug-ins; if you make plug-ins in this environment shit keeps breaking
[10:35] <bluefoxicy> s/shit/stuff/beforeigetbannedagain
[10:35] <lucas> ubuntu education ?
[10:35] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: there's no shame in having to try more than once, though.
[10:35] <Toadstool> LaserJock: uh? what d'you mean? :)
[10:35] <LaserJock> lucas: educating Ubuntu people
[10:35] <lucas> ah
[10:35] <lucas> it's important
[10:35] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: that is true, but i dont like doing it.
[10:35] <lucas> but it has to be done in an efficient way
[10:35] <LaserJock> sorry about my poor  typing
[10:35] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: besides, i dont like getitng up early :P
[10:35] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: heh, yeah, I guess it's early for you now?
[10:36] <Toadstool> LaserJock: there's room for a special MOTU class about that imho
[10:36] <lucas> ubuntu devs are usually over-busy
[10:36] <Mithrandir> ooh, half six.
[10:36] <LaserJock> Toadstool: that's been on my mind as well
[10:36] <LaserJock> lucas: yeah, that's a problem
[10:36] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: meeting started at 6am, i gave up on kaffeine at about 12.15 am.
[10:36] <lucas> if they have to spend time on one-to-one mentorship, it's not going to be possible
[10:36] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  passed back out at 12:30 am?
[10:36] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: sounds painful to get up, then.
[10:37] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: not passed out as such - but a bit tired, yeah
[10:37] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: yeah, rather.  i was pretty excited, so it wasnt too bad.
[10:37] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: bouncy! :-)
[10:37] <LaserJock> I would think an LP button that would forward the comments of a bug to Debian's BTS would be nice
[10:38] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i dont think i can bounce this early, no matter what kind of a high i'm on
[10:38] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: yeah, ditto to the mess that is kde bugs.
[10:38] <crimsun> LaserJock: afaik that's in the works (not so much a button but a gateway)
[10:38] <slomo> LaserJock: i guess many DDs won't like this very much :) but yes, that's a good idea
[10:38] <Toadstool> LaserJock: hmm... there's should be some kind of policy about this button then... 'cause Debian guys won't be happy if they get random crap from LP :)
[10:38] <Hobbsee> ooh look, the sun's finally coming up....
[10:38] <Toadstool> heh
[10:39] <LaserJock> well now, it'd have to be  tied to ubuntu-qa like other stuff is
[10:39] <LaserJock> s/now/no/
[10:39] <Toadstool> yep
[10:39] <bluefoxicy> heh
[10:39] <crimsun> Hobbsee: I think I've seen the sun rise every morning since I graduated from college
[10:39] <Hobbsee> crimsun: i almost never see it rise :P
[10:39] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  I've seen the sun rise an unfortunately many times this month.
[10:39] <LaserJock> but right now, the manual process of submitting bugs and trying to follow up is a bit of a pain
[10:39] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  I need to get to bed earlier.  I'm up when pitti and Hobbsee are getting up!
[10:39] <Toadstool> indeed
[10:40] <LaserJock> if you aren't already using Debian's BTS
[10:40] <Hobbsee> heh
[10:40] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: you forget, i'm up way earlier than usual
[10:40] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  heh.  I'm in US east coast, you're in AU, if y,ou're waking up at 6am-noon or such I'm probably up way too early or way too late.
[10:40] <ogra> bluefoxicy, pitti and Hobbsee ? you are aware that one of them sits in europe and the other in australia ?
[10:41] <Mithrandir> crimsun: you obviously don't live far from the equator, then.
[10:41] <Hobbsee> heh
[10:41] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  yeah.  pitti shows up 2-3am here, hobbsee around 4-5 I think.  I don't remember much about when Hobbsee shows up, haven't really had to sit up waiting for her for any specific reason.
[10:41] <crimsun> Mithrandir: nope, not terribly far
[10:42] <bluefoxicy> man, I need my own place
[10:42] <bluefoxicy> I want a room like the one I built on taps
[10:42] <crimsun> +36.072433 -079.772167 currently
[10:42] <bluefoxicy> I sketched it out with 27 computers, including some PPCs and sparcs :>
[10:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: yeah.  remind me to move to europe.
[10:42] <ogra> Hobbsee, well, DO IT ! :)
[10:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: it's too painful trying to get suitable meeting times, that arent in the middle of my night, when i'm at uni
[10:42] <Mithrandir> crimsun: the sun set less than half an hour ago here and will be up in less than six hours. :-)
[10:42] <Hobbsee> ogra: hehe...i dont have the money for that :P
[10:43] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  the 4 year institute I'm looking at attending has computer science courses \o/
[10:43] <ogra> but you certainly live on the more beautiful continent :)
[10:43] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  And they're held around 3AM because all the computer students are up that late anyway \o/
[10:43] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: i'm doing a bachelor of technology in optoelectronics - not really suited.  true
[10:43] <bluefoxicy> opowhatronics?
[10:44] <slomo> ogra: hm, does X work on your ibook with latest edgy? mine doesn't find the font "fixed" and doesn't want to start :)
[10:44] <bluefoxicy> ..... chicks dig giant robots.
[10:44] <ogra> slomo, run mkfontdir in the misc dir
[10:44] <ogra> its an old bug, but since we'll likely get 7.1 it will be temporary
[10:45] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: look on wikipedia.
[10:45] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: optoelectronics?  Sounds interesting.
[10:45] <LaserJock> bluefoxicy: very cool stuff
[10:45] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: it is :)  only covers first year programming though
[10:45] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  ah.
[10:45] <LaserJock> bah, at least you get some programming
[10:45] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  my boyfriend is an aerospace engineer.  <3
[10:45] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: yeah, true
[10:45] <LaserJock> I've been to 8 years of uni and I still haven't taken a CS course
[10:45] <Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I don't know of any programmers who became programmers in a university class, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
[10:45] <slomo> ogra: thanks... works fine :)
[10:46] <ogra> :)
[10:46] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  He likes electronics though, you could probably actually talk to him and have a captive audience instead of a very bored one :P
[10:46] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: yeah, exactly. i've yet to code much C++ for kubuntu...
[10:46] <slomo> Hobbsee: most people that learn programming at university first are not very good at it from my experience ;)
[10:46] <Toadstool> qt... :p
[10:47] <Hobbsee> slomo: hehe, true
[10:47] <Hobbsee> slomo: i just teach it to everyone else :P
[10:47] <crimsun> slomo: that's because you can't teach programming, only syntax, which is utterly the wrong way of doing it imo.
[10:47] <LaserJock> Hobbsee: virtually all I do is basically applied optoelectronics :-)
[10:47] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: yeah, exactly :P  fun stuff :)
[10:48] <Hobbsee> crimsun: that is true
[10:49] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  the other wrong thing they do is they don't mandate assembly at the lower levels.
[10:50] <bluefoxicy> crimsun: and they teach C++
[10:50] <slomo> crimsun: right :) but although our lectures about programming didn't talk much about syntax it wouldn't help you much because you don't learn it by listening but by doing :P
[10:50] <bluefoxicy> so you walk in "Here is C++, you write this syntax and this happens," just like you said.  in fact EXACTLY like you said.  The student walks out 1) Having classes forced in his face BEFORE he knows ANY programming; 2) Manipulating memory directly and not understanding the underlying function of the machine (i.e. basic assembly, VERY basic assembly even)
[10:50] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: I'm not entirely convinced asm is necessary at an intro level (again, syntax)
[10:51] <Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: uh, why would you need to know assembly to learn how to program?
[10:51] <Hobbsee> slomo: i tend to code the weekly assignment durign the lectures, on paper, and look up every once in a while to see what's going on.  it works :D
[10:51] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  I self-taught myself assembly.  I think mov, cmp, every jxx, registers, the stack, basic memory considerations.  The most basic parts of 286 assembly, enough to write a small encryption program from scratch.  I learned all of 6502 assembly too.
[10:52] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  When I code in C, I know things about what I'm doing.  For instance I know a variable I allocate is on the stack, I know what the stack looks like and what happens if i overflow it, I know my program crashed in weird unmapped memory because somewehre I fragged the stack.
[10:52] <crimsun> the most important thing to teach at an intro level is what an algorithm is. Later you can teach how to design algorithms, then how to design good algorithms, and so on.
[10:52] <Toadstool> +1
[10:53] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  I know when I allocate a pointer, it's pointing elsewhere in memory.  I don't know just those words, but actually what it means.  I figured out adjusting pointer addresses to walk arrays myself because I knew that, and not just the syntax of a pointer.
[10:53] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  Anyway short version, when I code, I know what I'm doing to the machine, not just what my code is supposed to make appear to happen.
[10:54] <bluefoxicy> and yeah, designing good algorithms and everything is important too.  That's a little higher level though isn't it?  That's like "you know how to code, now we're going to explain math to you, using code to show how it works"
[10:55] <sharms> On the motu/bugs page, can I edit this line: Bugs tagged as Universe in [WWW]  bugzilla. Bugzilla is being phased out in favor of [WWW]  Malone for Universe packages but there are still some left.
[10:55] <sharms> or is bugzilla really still used?
[10:57] <Mithrandir> sharms: bugzilla hasn't been in use for quite some time
[10:57] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: you're then programming for a paradigm (procedural/imperative), which is fine, but at a really basic (intro?) level, the point is to solve a problem, and to do that you need to teach the idea of an algorithm
[10:57] <sharms> Mithrandir: thanks
[10:58] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: these questions have been discussed for aeons in the ivory tower, and no one has really gotten it right except, because everyone learns differently
[10:58] <crimsun> s/except//
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  Yeah, but to teach the idea of an algorithm, you have to A) do it mathematically, in which case you draw a formula for a hash or such in descrete math; or B) do it programmatically, in which case you have to show it in code
[10:59] <slomo> crimsun: agreed :) although not only algorithms are important but general software engineering knowledge too... otherwise people will write weird code ;)
[10:59] <bluefoxicy> programmatically though you have to know what the machine is doing or you'll do something dumb.  Look at the stupid crap programmers have to be taught.
[11:00] <bluefoxicy> intro-level programmers want to know i.e. why they can't memcpy() a struct that has pointers in it and then alter strings and such and not have the other struct change too
[11:00] <crimsun> bluefoxicy: the easiest explanation of an algorithm -- not a specific one -- is simply a set of steps to do something. That's not difficult to teach.
[11:00] <sharms> slomo: pm
[11:00] <bluefoxicy> crimsun:  I'd prefer a descrete math definition to a plain english set of steps; but i'm a very formal person.
[11:01] <Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I claim that you're using the wrong language if your intro-level programmers are exposed to memcpy.
[11:01] <bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  at least it's not java!
[11:01] <Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: java is less bad than assembly to learn programming, IMO.
[11:02] <bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I'm not proporting to teach programmers how to program using assembly, just to introduce them to the machine with assembly
[11:02] <crimsun> that's my point, though. The language isn't the issue, it's how to use a language. Historically academia errs into teaching syntax and not how to analyse problems and form a set of steps to resolve them.
[11:02] <Mithrandir> I don't see a point in that.  They'll get to know the machine quickly enough.  Newbie programmers start by learning concepts such as "variable", "conditional", "loop", etc.
[11:02] <bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I don't want them thinking strcpy() is a magic function that waves a wand to get the same data over here in this thing over there and that malloc() gives them an actual something.
[11:03] <Mithrandir> and to teach them that, you want to teach them in a language where they don't have to do explicit memory handling, for instance.
[11:03] <bluefoxicy> You would be surprised how many programmers get to their third or fourth class and still don't know how exactly strcpy() gets text from one side of memory to the other
[11:03] <sharms> I see no point in teaching assembly first, with respect to longetivity, since underlying processes and fundamentals of computer hardware may change in the future, but things like loops will be more likely to always exist
[11:03] <bluefoxicy> or how many haven't exactly been told that if you strcpy(dest, dest+1) it'll run forever.
[11:03] <bluefoxicy> and don't know why.
[11:04] <FunnyLookinHat> bluefoxicy, that's why programmers should learn C as their first language and not be allowed to use anything more than the basic functions so they understand memory locations and usage  : )
[11:04] <sharms> Or better yet, have the compiler issue a warning and be done with it.
[11:04] <crimsun> sharms: right, programming paradigms are very important, but at an intro level we're not thinking about architecture.
[11:04] <sharms> I don't want to know how strcpy works, just that it works as specified in the manpage.
[11:04] <sharms> the goal, in very large systems, is abstraction
[11:04] <FunnyLookinHat> bluefoxicy, for example, they taught Java at Purdue University as the first language to use, and it created a lot of bad habits for the first year students  ;)
[11:04] <bluefoxicy> I asked one of my classmates what would happen if he did that strcpy() command and he said he didn't know, he had this blank look on his face that was a clean indicator of not knowing how the data goes from one place to another.
[11:04] <sharms> not indepth knowledge of every single function
[11:05] <Bazzi> bluefoxicy: ideally, the programmer doesn't have to know.
[11:05] <crimsun> anyhow, sorry for the offtopic springboard :-P
[11:05] <bluefoxicy> sharms:  not the functions, but basically knowing about memory, stack, and maybe (but not necessarily) registers.  Having some idea what you're doing
[11:06] <bluefoxicy> hah yeah
[11:06] <bluefoxicy> we should stop
[11:06] <Bazzi> bluefoxicy: so you see programming as a low level thing, still?
[11:06] <sharms> but why should I know about how memory works?  that isn't my job to manage memory.
[11:07] <sharms> the process should be transparent and abstracted in a well planned system / language
[11:07] <Bazzi> the problem is, if you teach stack, registers and whatnot too early, they just won't understand what it is
[11:07] <bluefoxicy> Bazzi:  In C you are mucking with memory directly.  I wouldn't want a mechanic to muck with my car engine directly with the knowledge that "the cam shaft is tied to the pistons.  I'm not sure what it's for, I just know it's inside the engine somewhere, I'll see it when I take it apart"
[11:07] <LaserJock> I just use Python and be done with it, but then I'm just a chemist
[11:07] <bluefoxicy> Bazzi:  I put it there, it does what it's supposed to.  It doesn't do what it's supposed to... um.  Looks good to me?
[11:08] <Bazzi> so my personal opinion is to start with a high level language, teach them algorithms first (without the language getting in their way) and then going back to the roots
[11:08] <sharms> I see python as getting closer to where programming will be in 10 years, so maybe I am biased
[11:08] <sharms> but in the same way I wouldn't use vaccume tubes to create a computer, I don't see todays youth needing low-level languages
[11:08] <Bazzi> on my C introductory course (1 week) we talked about 3 of 5 days just about C oddities
[11:09] <bluefoxicy> ok we're way offtopic :P
[11:09] <Bazzi> but it's important ;)
[11:09] <sharms> I think we passed way offtopic 10 minutes ago hehe
[11:09] <bluefoxicy> maybe I should ask my college if I can do a study
[11:09] <Bazzi> I have to hold a week of basic programming training myself, soon, so I need any teaching advise I an get ;)
[11:10] <sharms> oh you are?
[11:10] <bluefoxicy> They'll let me crash course 10-15 students in ASM for sure
[11:10] <crimsun> sharms: I am.
[11:10] <sharms> well then I suppose it is very relevant
[11:11] <Mithrandir> sharms: being able to go down into the stack and disassemble all the way to assembly is certainly useful, but not for a beginner.
[11:11] <Hobbsee> is it worth going back to sleep?  hmmm....
[11:11] <ogra> Hobbsee, how early is it for you ?
[11:12] <slomo> Hobbsee: sleep is worth everything :)
[11:12] <Hobbsee> ogra: currently 7am, the meeting started at 6
[11:12] <sharms> Mithrandir: my point was just that in 10 years I can't imagine programmers having to manually go through a stack
[11:12] <Hobbsee> slomo: hehe. true.
[11:12] <ogra> well, there is still time for 3h of sleep at least ;)
[11:12] <ogra> humans should not be up before 10am ... (bakers excluded indeed)
[11:13] <Mithrandir> sharms: I think you're wrong, but we'll see.
[11:13] <ogra> *g*
[11:13] <Bazzi> the programmer has to go through a java-style stacktrace at least
[11:13] <sharms> it's hard to say with that time line and the rate in which hardware and knowledge grows.  I mean for all we know the linux kernel could be rewritten in pure managed code by then
[11:13] <Hobbsee> ogra: hehe, tell that to my mother :P
[11:14] <ogra> well, i wouldnt tell that to *my* mother even :)
[11:17] <Hobbsee> ogra: heh.  :P
[11:20] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  how early should furries be up?  :P
[11:21] <tmccrar1> Is xorg 7.1 in edgy?
[11:21] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: furries?  furries should never be up
[11:21] <LaserJock> tmccrar1: packages.ubuntu.com has package info
[11:21] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  haha.  You saw the desktop background in #-offtopic last night?
[11:21] <ogra> furries ? my dictionary strikes on that ...
[11:22] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: no, i was fixing various multimedia apps.
[11:22] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: and writing a very logn "to do" list, and sorting out getting my car fixed
[11:22] <tmccrar1> hmm, looks like it doesn't
[11:22] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee:  someone drew 3 furries holding hands like the original ubuntu logo from Human Circle :P
[11:23] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: ahhh...
[11:24] <bluefoxicy> someone told me ArOS has the coolest logo ever.. i'm inclined to agree.  http://www.aros.org/  Compare w/ Tux, BSDemon
[11:25] <StevenK> Hah, now that is sexy
[11:26] <micahcowan> Very nice. Could be considered male-centric tho
[11:26] <tmccrar1> that is retarded
[11:26] <bluefoxicy> so could Ubuntu.  All the calendar and human circle logos were what, a guy with TWO girls?
[11:26] <bluefoxicy> "Listen to you, what are you going to do with two chicks?"  "Dude Church women are like Voltron, the more you hook up the better it gets"
[11:27] <ogra> not true ... there was only one where the guy was on with both of them ...
[11:27] <micahcowan> bluefoxicy: what's that from?
[11:27] <bluefoxicy> I recall at least three, excluding the whole human circle one that was clothed
[11:27] <ogra> the rest were either the guy or one of the girls
[11:27] <bluefoxicy> micahcowan:  red vs blue.
[11:27] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  to be fair though one of those three was just butts.
[11:28] <micahcowan> Damn. Haven't watched that. Haven't played Halo, either.
[11:28] <ogra> yep, true
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> One of them he was eyeing one of the girls up like "Mmmm... gonna take these two home tonight..." ... overly suggestive.  We already covered this in #-offtopic last night, I think those created an unfavorable business image due to the suggestive nature of the images when processed through the human mind
[11:29] <bluefoxicy> ANYWAY.
[11:30] <tmccrar1> does anyone know where the git_xorg script is that is mentioned on the freedesktop wiki? it grabs all of Xorg's source
[11:30] <bluefoxicy> I switched over to here to talk about searching, htf did we get this far offtopic
[11:30] <Hobbsee> yes, anyway...
[11:30] <tmccrar1> they it's "Attached to this page" but I doesn't appear to be there
[11:38] <chillywilly> bah
[11:38] <chillywilly> I got my CD package in the mail with nothing in it
[11:38] <LaserJock> ?
[11:39] <LaserJock> somebody stole your Ubuntu CDs?
[11:39] <chillywilly> ShipIt CDs
[11:39] <chillywilly> says it was "damaged"
[11:39] <LaserJock> grrr
[11:39] <chillywilly> fucking sucks
[11:39] <LaserJock> how long did it take to get them?
[11:40] <chillywilly> only thing that is in the package is a small flyer to get your copy of the ubuntu guide :(
[11:40] <chillywilly> long time
[11:41] <chillywilly> couple months
[11:42] <chillywilly> IIRC
[11:42] <LaserJock> I was thinking of ordering some but I'm afraid it'll be edgy by the time I get them
[11:42] <LaserJock> I've got 1 each of Ubuntu Kubuntu and Edubuntu from Paris
[11:42] <LaserJock> so I could make quick copies
[11:43] <chillywilly> I've ordered them for the last couple previous releases
[11:43] <bluefoxicy> LaserJock, slomo:  "I guessed that - I could provide a patch to Nautilus to make it runtime selectable (with Nautilus depending on both libtracker and libBeagle) but this would not make it into the main nautilus source and so it would have to be maintained externally."
[11:43] <chillywilly> never had any problems
[11:43] <bluefoxicy> ubuntu guide?  Is that like Slackware Linux Essentials?  :)
[11:44] <slomo> bluefoxicy: *shrug* i don't care :) and for the nautilus patch you have to talk to seb128
[11:46] <LaserJock> me neither, I don't run beagle or tracker and I barely ever use spotlight, locate, or find
[11:48] <tseng> are we still carrying on about tracker?
[11:49] <bluefoxicy> tseng:  I'm not sure anyone was interested in the first place, though I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to offer both until both technologies mature.  So far it looks like a nightmare.
[11:49] <Toadstool> gasp, another unattended ctrl-alt-backspace :p
[12:03] <Toadstool> g'night everybody, cya tomorrow... er, today for the hug day :p
[12:03] <Hobbsee> night ToadZzZztool
[12:04] <LaserJock> cya ToadZzZztool, congrats?
[12:04] <LaserJock> s/?/!/
[12:04] <LaserJock> why do I insist on putting ?s at the end of everything
[12:04] <LaserJock> ?
[12:04] <Hobbsee> LaserJock: becqause it's fun?
[12:05] <LaserJock> grrrrr
[12:05] <zul> hey
[12:05] <LaserJock> I've spent all morning trying to figure out why emacs won't find .el files :/
[12:06] <LaserJock> only certain ones though