[01:40] <Riddell> oh yes, he was dissing kde dot news
[01:40] <Burgwork> Riddell, I was talking with nixternal_ about the akademy webpage talking about kde being "the free desktop"
[01:40] <Burgwork> oh, and yes, I was saying that kde dot news was boring
[01:40] <Burgwork> so is planet kde, tbh
[01:40] <Burgwork> no screenshots, no new stsuff
[01:43] <Riddell> I find footnotes, planet gnome and planet debian boring, but that's because I'm not part of those communities and don't really care about most of the people or news
[01:44] <Riddell> we try not to put too many application announcements on dot news, there's kde-apps.org for that
[01:44] <Burgwork> at least pgo has screenshots on new stuff
[01:44] <jjesse> i find Riddell boring :)  (oh wait that was out loud :P )
[01:44] <jjesse> just kidding of course
[01:44] <Burgwork> Riddell, please change "shaping the future of the free desktop" to something less offensive
[01:44] <Burgwork> on http://conference2006.kde.org/
[01:44] <Burgwork> maybe "shaping the future of KDE"
[01:45] <jjesse> why we all know kde is the future of the free desktop :)
[01:45] <Burgwork> jjesse, no, actually, we don't
[01:45] <jjesse> sorry i'm a little fiesty this evening
[01:45] <Burgwork> you will note that gnome has dropped "the leading free desktop" from their press releases
[01:46] <crimsun> I don't think it's at all offensive.
[01:47] <crimsun> I think using KDE would be more politically correct, yes, but shouldn't they be free to call it whatever they want within reason?
[01:47] <Burgwork> are they talking about gnome, xfce and fluxbox, etc. at this meeting?
[01:47] <Burgwork> then they are not shaping THE free desktop, they are shaping A free desktop
[01:48] <Riddell> Burgwork: I'll pass on your request to the marketing group
[01:48] <Burgwork> Riddell, cheers, thanks
[01:48] <Burgwork> building common ground is important
[01:49] <LaserJock> ohhhh, kalzium :-)
[01:49] <crimsun> I'm quite sure GNOME will surface at some point in some discussion, yes.
[01:53] <LaserJock> hmm, anybody know of a place that has how many people use the various desktops? Like real data, not a forum poll?
[01:54] <crimsun> surely you know as a scientist that any "real data" is statistically insignificant and utter straw rubbish.
[01:55] <Burgwork> LaserJock, nobody has good information on that
[01:55] <Burgwork> in fact, nobody has really good information on numbers of Linux users
[01:55] <Burgwork> even Ubuntu
[01:55] <LaserJock> crimsun: sure, but I need something to use when I fight with raphink ;-)
[01:55] <Burgwork> you can look at things like popcon and the number of ips hitting an ntp server
[01:55] <jjesse> LaserJock: just say everfyone uses windows :)
[01:55] <LaserJock> Burgwork: I suppose, I sure hate the lack of data in FLOSS
[01:56] <Burgwork> debian popcon shows kde and gnome are just about equal, in terms of installations
[01:56] <LaserJock> that's something at least
[01:56] <Burgwork> although there is no single variable for "user is running X desktop'
[01:56] <crimsun> why are you "fighting" raphink anyway? :-)
[01:57] <LaserJock> crimsun: oh we battle over the future of KDE and Gnome all the time
[01:57] <jsgotangco> its a battle lost at the beginning because XFCE shall rule them all
[01:57] <jsgotangco> lol
[01:57] <LaserJock> hehe
[01:57] <LaserJock> well I don't use any of them much
[01:57] <crimsun> there are 356 merges, and the two of your are arguing? mmkay. :-)
[01:58] <crimsun> of you ^
[01:58] <LaserJock> heh, waiting for pbuilders to get done ;-)
[01:58] <LaserJock> although it really isn't fighting since we agree with each other most of the time
[01:59] <LaserJock> but we definately disagree about how many people are using what
[01:59] <LaserJock> but it's just my little thing
[02:01] <Burgwork> gnome has had some long debates about how to get good numbers
[02:01] <Burgwork> basically, the answer is "you don't"
[02:02] <LaserJock> I suppose
[02:02] <LaserJock> I think the lack of data in FLOSS makes it really hard to try to analyze things, IMO. Things just devolve into opinon swapping
[02:03] <LaserJock> but maybe that's the scientist in me
[02:04] <LaserJock> raphink and I are mostly interested in user/developer ratios
[02:04] <crimsun> I'll use the analogy that Richard Feynman used. After his involvement in the Manhattan Project, he was despondent and wanted to tell everyone about the utter futility of things. Later he realised that numbers ultimately don't matter.
[02:05] <crimsun> how would you count those of us who are users and developers?
[02:06] <LaserJock> well, I'm assuming that that's one of the reasons there isn't data ;-)
[02:06] <LaserJock> it's hard to nail down what you mean
[02:06] <crimsun> ok, example. I've contributed code to various projects, but I don't necessarily use all of them. What am I?
[02:07] <LaserJock> "other" ;-)
[02:08] <crimsun> which doesn't fit neatly, which goes back to Burgwork's statement
[02:08] <LaserJock> sure, I totally understand the problem
[02:08] <LaserJock> I just don't like it :-)
[02:09] <LaserJock> annnyway, I don't want to start wars today since I already mentioned  vim in #emacs today
[02:10] <LaserJock> I just don't quite get why people are so focused on DEs. Do users really care that much?
[02:11] <crimsun> no, not really. That's why Ubuntu rocketed in popularity.
[02:11] <crimsun> That's why the community screams over any little thing.
[02:22] <nixternal_> mmm mmm that was mighty fine pizza
[02:29] <jsgotangco> nice!
[02:30] <jjesse> that was wierd, my laptop just turned off
[02:35] <nixternal> what is weird about a laptop turning off?
[02:35] <nixternal> what is weird is when they get up and steal your last beer out of the fridge
[02:35] <LaserJock> that would be odd, I don't have any beer in my fridge
[02:35] <nixternal> ya, me either
[02:36] <nixternal> so it would be weird ;)
[02:36] <LaserJock> I've got a bud light somewhere in the pantry that was a present for my wife's 21st birthday
[02:36] <LaserJock> :-)
[02:36] <LaserJock> does beer go bad?
[02:37] <jjesse> have a full wine rack 
[02:38] <jjesse> yes beer goes bad
[02:38] <jjesse> it gets skuny
[02:39] <jjesse> skunnky
[02:42] <LaserJock> hmm, cause that bottle's been in our pantry for 6 years now
[02:43] <nixternal> heh, all those issues with skunky, yet he is a docker ;)
[02:44] <nixternal> tell me if "Ubuntu Center has changed it's name" is news worthy, or if someone is trying to get free publicity    http://icenterx.info/index.php
[02:44] <nixternal> i have never heard of it
[02:44] <nixternal> oh ya, he isn't making the UWN...loaded with ADS
[02:44] <Burgundavia> never heard of it
[02:45] <nixternal> someone trying to get their site pimped on the UWN..guess what, im not pimpin' it...sorry ;)
[02:46] <LaserJock> what the heck is it?
[02:47] <nixternal> it is a way for that guy to make money is what it is..a useless site full of ads
[02:47] <LaserJock> ok, so it went from Ubuntu Center to iCenterX to Hive ?
[02:48] <nixternal> i guess
[02:48] <nixternal> and it went from being on the 'proposed news' list to the trash bin as well
[02:48] <LaserJock> in like a month?
[02:48] <nixternal> cuz i deleted it
[02:48] <nixternal> hahaha
[02:58] <nixternal> lol
[02:58] <nixternal> you ok there bud?
[02:58] <jjesse_> me?
[02:58] <jjesse_> yeah
[02:58] <nixternal> don't know if you are comin' or goin'
[02:58] <jjesse_> don't know myself
[02:58] <nixternal> hehe
[03:24] <nixternal> jjesse_: i haven't received and email back from mgalvin concerning the template, and since it seems the page i created got pimped in the Edgy Knot-1 Release statement, I think I am going to just follow the one I created
[03:31] <jjesse_> nixternal that sounds like a good oplan to me :)
[03:32] <nixternal> im working on the UWN now
[03:32] <nixternal> i might actually have this ready for release tonight, but will wait until either midnight tomorrow or saturday morning
[03:50] <dsas> isn't icenterx some forums project - a "web front end to your ubuntu system" or something?
[05:21] <nixternal> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1990777,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616
[05:29] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue7    <-- it needs more...edubuntu and xubuntu info, and some meeting info yet....help!!!
[05:39] <jsgotangco> nixternal: will handle the other parts later (since its already friday here)
[05:39] <jsgotangco> nixternal: ive been planning to write up stuff friday night/saturday morning
[05:39] <nixternal> there are just a few small ones..oh ya, you can pimp edubuntu ;)
[05:40] <jsgotangco> its alright, we're sending that on sunday anyway
[05:40] <nixternal> it is loaded with community news..so that is good..there is just some stuff lacking from Edubuntu and Xubuntu...a once over would be good for spelling and grammar
[05:40] <jsgotangco> we can grok on it later if you're free
[05:40] <jsgotangco> when i come home
[05:40] <jsgotangco> and you start your day
[05:40] <nixternal> hehe
[05:40] <nixternal> i am always free
[05:41] <nixternal> it is going on 11pm here...and im actually really tired for some reason
[05:41] <jsgotangco> cool im not doing anything tonight so ill be able to do stuff on that, boss is flying to NY later so the next 2 weeks would be interesting
[05:41] <bimberi> too much pizza!
[05:41] <nixternal> ya, the pizza exhausted me
[05:41] <nixternal> gino's pizza
[05:42] <nixternal> gino's east to be exact
[05:42] <jsgotangco> nixternal: its just that my day job also involves writing whitepapers for our product offering so i get tired of writing sometimes heh
[05:42] <nixternal> oh i know the feeling
[05:43] <nixternal> im gonna go have me some ice cream..i shall return shortly
[05:43] <nixternal> maybe that will wake me up a little ;)
[06:46] <bimberi> LaserJock: http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/index.php
[06:48] <LaserJock> bimberi: hmm, interesting
[06:49] <bimberi> LaserJock: yes indeed
[06:51] <jsgotangco> not bad
[06:51] <jsgotangco> if hwdb was mandatory, we'd have all the data we need =)
[06:51] <jsgotangco> especially with installations
[06:52] <nixternal> i already signed up...that is HedgeMage that made that page right?
[06:52] <bimberi> no, elkbuntu
[06:53] <nixternal> ya
[06:53] <nixternal> derrr
[06:53] <nixternal> and i so posted that in marketing earlier too didn't i
[06:54] <jsgotangco> s('_^)-b
[06:54] <nixternal> wth is that?
[06:54] <nixternal> that is one ooogly face
[06:54] <jsgotangco> lol
[06:54] <jsgotangco> ~~~~~~^0^~~~~~~~~
[06:55] <nixternal> i think im gonna grab the lappy, and go lay in bed with some tv...lay back and chill while i do some more work
[06:55] <jsgotangco> nixternal: does ubuntu chicago have a website?
[06:55] <nixternal> not yet jsgotangco
[06:56] <nixternal> im trying hard though
[06:56] <jsgotangco> trying hard for what?
[06:56] <nixternal> chi.ubuntu-us.com  is what i have a support ticket in for on launchpad
[06:56] <jsgotangco> ahhh
[06:56] <nixternal> it was supposed to be done earlier this week, so i asked for an update 2 days ago...im still waiting..but they are going through some changes, so im not going to pester them quite yet
[06:57] <nixternal> i got my mailing list finally
[06:58] <LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if I could get LJ.ubuntu-us.com? :-)
[06:58] <nixternal> heh
[06:58] <LaserJock> I'm my own LoCo team
[06:58] <LaserJock> loco team anyway
[06:58] <nixternal> scarry, but i believe it for some reason ;)
[06:58] <nixternal> hahah
[06:58] <jsgotangco> boooo
[06:58] <nixternal> LoCo != loco ;)
[06:59] <nixternal> loco == LaserJock
[06:59] <LaserJock> hehe
[06:59] <mpt_> How many hours until the docteam meeting?
[06:59] <nixternal> huh
[06:59] <LaserJock> well Utah and Colorado won't have me I don't think
[06:59] <nixternal> docteam meeting?
[06:59] <LaserJock> mpt_: it's 19:00
[06:59] <LaserJock> UTC
[06:59] <jsgotangco> ugghhhh
[06:59] <nixternal> tomorrow?
[06:59] <LaserJock> yeah, Friday
[06:59] <nixternal> hmm..in here i take it?
[07:00] <nixternal> because #ubuntu-meeting is full at that time
[07:00] <Plug> (It will be Saturday for mpt and myself, assuming he is also in NZST still)
[07:00] <jsgotangco> 19UTC is 3am for me
[07:00] <LaserJock> yikes
[07:00] <bimberi> <-- 5am
[07:01] <jsgotangco> 5am is ok
[07:01] <nixternal> hmm...i think jsgotangco should be at a docteam meeting, so i think someone needs to look at the schedule posted for you guys
[07:01] <nixternal> haha
[07:01] <jsgotangco> nixternal: its alright, the meeting can go with or without me anyways like before
[07:01] <bimberi> jsgotangco: yeah it is actually - the house is quiet :)
[07:01] <LaserJock> it was already discussed on the ML
[07:01] <LaserJock> and we have the wiki schedule still, I think
[07:02] <nixternal> 0400 & 2200 are the winners for time
[07:03] <nixternal> 0400 = 11pm for me..which is good...and 2200 = 5pm which is good
[07:03] <mpt_> That's why I asked for the number of hours rather than the time :-P
[07:03] <bimberi> 14
[07:03] <LaserJock> mpt_: yeah, but I can't do math that well
[07:03] <bimberi> 7am?
[07:03] <mpt_> probably
[07:05] <nixternal> heh, mdke says it "it can be in another channel"
[07:05] <nixternal> you guys should have spoke up when he asked if the times were good ;)
[07:05] <LaserJock> it was probably in the middle of the night for them
[07:05] <LaserJock> it *was* good for all the people present ;-)
[07:06] <nixternal> you know..netscape used to have a killer calendar app back in the day.
[07:06] <bimberi> he probably asked at 19UTC ;)
[07:06] <mpt_> 1997 to 1999, yes
[07:06] <nixternal> lol
[07:06] <nixternal> that was it
[07:07] <mpt_> so I came across the literature about Collabra
[07:07] <jsgotangco> im just skipping this meeting and read the logs
[07:07] <jsgotangco> did you use collabra
[07:07] <nixternal> wth is going on with my launchpad karma...it keeps going up and up...i wish my bank account was like that
[07:07] <Laser_away> :( mine goes down and down
[07:07] <nixternal> heh
[07:07] <Laser_away> I need to do some en_US translations
[07:07] <Laser_away> ;-)
[07:07] <nixternal> it is because people have subscribed me to specs
[07:08] <nixternal> grrr
[07:08] <nixternal> alright..i will bbiaf..gonna head on up with my lappy and a cup a tea
[07:09] <jsgotangco> wow what happened to the karma in LP it just exploded
[07:11] <bimberi> wow
[07:16] <jsgotangco> i wished that translated to $US
[07:18] <RichJ> well hello there
[07:19] <RichJ> come on..i have only been gone for 5 minutes and you all are gone already
[07:20] <bimberi> we've all gone shopping with out Launchpad karma
[07:20] <RichJ> haha
[07:20] <bimberi> *our
[07:21] <RichJ> all this computer time is making me fat
[07:24] <jsgotangco> dont remind me about that
[07:25] <RichJ> haha
[07:25] <RichJ> you know..i was thinking
[07:25] <jsgotangco> i once had a dream of me expecting an email
[07:25] <RichJ> the fridge and the uwn
[07:25] <jsgotangco> and i was sitting in front of my pc
[07:25] <RichJ> haha
[07:25] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[07:25] <mpt_> jsgotangco, no I didn't
[07:26] <RichJ> you know, last night i had a dream that i had a mass email that had to be sent out for Knot 1 release and i fell asleep before i could do it
[07:26] <RichJ> i woke up this morning thinking people were going to be pissed at me
[07:26] <jsgotangco> now thats really bad
[07:37] <RichJ> hehe
[09:10] <Burgundavia> hey mdke
[09:12] <mdke> heya
[09:13] <mdke> Burgundavia: how's life?
[09:13] <Burgundavia> this week, shitty
[09:13] <mdke> :(
[12:20] <Madpilot> bimberi, nice re-use of my letter to LP Ubuntu Wiki hopefuls who haven't actually done any work yet
[12:20] <mdke> that's a very well phrased letter, we should write it down somewhere
[12:21] <bimberi> Madpilot: thanks
[12:21] <bimberi> and mdke
[12:21] <Madpilot> given that I threw it together in about two minutes, I'm glad it works :)
[12:22] <bimberi> Madpilot: excellent job.  i struggle to create sometimes but i taking your words really helped (i did restructure a little)
[12:22] <bimberi> s/i //
[12:23] <bimberi> btw Alejandro replied, agreed with the email and was not at all discouraged
[12:24] <mdke> great
[12:25] <Madpilot> excellent
[01:04] <kbrooks> This is slightly offtopic, but this slightly relates to the documentation as well: how do i modify a pre-existing package?
[01:05] <dsas> kbrooks: Does https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-updating.html help at all?
[01:05] <kbrooks> thanks
[01:07] <kbrooks> why isn't debian/rules binary suggested in the packaging guide for if you don't want to do yet another installation/chroot of ubuntu?
[01:11] <dsas> kbrooks: I don't know what that means. Laserjock did nearly all the work on the packaging guide, it might be best to ping him directly about it.
[01:12] <dsas> kbrooks: The packaging guide does suggest using pbuilder instead of managing your own chroots though, I don't know if the two are related.
[01:12] <kbrooks> "Using pbuilder as a package builder allows you to build the package from within a chroot environment. You can build binary packages without using 	pbuilder, but you must have all the build dependencies installed on your system first. 
[01:12] <kbrooks> dsas: pbuilder creates a chroot... :-)
[01:13] <kbrooks> dsas: that really isnt managing your own chroot. pbuilder creates it for you and essentially manages it for you, when you tell it to (and how)
[01:13] <dsas> kbrooks: ahh ok, I don't really know much, my attempts at packaging have nearly always failed.
[01:14] <kbrooks> dsas: sucks 
[01:22] <jrib> kbrooks: I apt-get source, make changes, change version to indicate it is my own, dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -us -uc, and then install the deb.  For personal use that should work ok
[01:22] <mdke> kbrooks: #ubuntu-motu should be able to help further
[01:25] <kbrooks> :-) 
[01:36] <dsas> mdke:  I think there's a bug filed about that
[01:38] <dsas> mdke: bug 53439
[01:38] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53439 in mozilla-thunderbird "Thunderbird full cpu" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53439
[01:40] <mdke> dsas: thanks
[02:42] <jjesse> #/join kubuntu-devel
[03:20] <jenda> spam 
[06:15] <bhuvan> just to confirm, docteam meeting is going to occur in next 2:45hrs?
[06:16] <nixternal> yes sir!!!
[06:16] <nixternal> im guessing in here, as #ubuntu-meeting will not be available at that time
[06:17] <bhuvan> ok
[07:47] <LaserJock> theCore: ping?
[08:38] <pygi> mdke: you have a sec?
[08:53] <pygi> Burgwork: poke? 
[08:56] <LaserJock> do you need something pygi?
[08:59] <mpt> Where's the meeting?
[08:59] <LaserJock> here
[08:59] <mpt> ok
[08:59] <LaserJock> supposed to be anyway
[09:00] <mpt> grrr it's cold
[09:00] <pygi> LaserJock: yes, when is the meeting? :P
[09:00] <pygi> right now?
[09:00] <LaserJock> I think so
[09:00] <bhuvan> it's the time!
[09:02] <trappist> great timing for me
[09:02] <bhuvan> i assume, meeting doesnt happen anywhere else
[09:02] <trappist> I think #ubuntu-meeting is busy
[09:02] <LaserJock> it should be here since marketing is doing a meeting now
[09:02] <bhuvan> yep
[09:04] <mdke> hello
[09:04] <LaserJock> ah, phew
[09:04] <mdke> in here, I'd say
[09:05] <LaserJock> ok, lets goooo!
[09:05] <bhuvan> so now, shall we start ? who are all here?
[09:06] <mpt> me
[09:06] <mdke> me
[09:06] <mdke> pygi: yes
[09:07] <LaserJock> ack, no jjesse
[09:07] <mdke> ok so we should really figure out where we are going with docs for Edgy. It seems to me that Kubuntu is well placed, so I'd like to focus on Ubuntu if poss.
[09:07] <bhuvan> for edgy, do we have plans for new documents?
[09:08] <LaserJock> new docs seemed like Switching from Windows and Security Guide
[09:08] <mdke> we need to think about the whole structure of how to present the help system... that will affect how we think about "new docs"
[09:08] <LaserJock> ah, true
[09:08] <bhuvan> ok
[09:08] <LaserJock> it would be nice to push presentation more this release, rather than just a scramble for new content
[09:09] <mpt> I would really really like to see something that, on screen, looks like a single help system
[09:09] <mdke> i agree...
[09:09] <mdke> I had proposed something quite radical, but I'm not sure whether we have enough time to pursue it or not, maybe it is better viewed as a long term goal. what do people think?
[09:09] <mpt> However that happens to be organized underneath
[09:09] <trappist> I don't think I'm familiar with the proposal
[09:09] <trappist> haven't been keeping up with the list
[09:09] <LaserJock> mdke: I agree, time is really quite short for edgy
[09:10] <mdke> I've been thinking about a sort of compromise
[09:10] <bhuvan> trappist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne
[09:10] <LaserJock> mdke: and we don't really have a good implementation plan yet
[09:10] <mdke> what mpt says is spot on: instead of present different guides, we need to present a single help system
[09:10] <trappist> bhuvan: thanks
[09:10] <mdke> I think we can do that with a few very simple things
[09:10] <bhuvan> like?
[09:10] <mdke> first, eliminate any overlap between (for example) the server guide and desktop guide
[09:11] <mdke> so, for example, have a separate article about Installing/Removing/Upgrading which applies to the whole help system
[09:11] <nixternal> something like SuSe's Slab with the various types of "Help" options would be nice
[09:12] <mdke> I think a completely rehashed system based on content may be beyond us a bit for Edgy
[09:12] <nixternal> more then likely, but could be planned for edgy+1
[09:13] <mdke> yes. I'm hoping that in the general future the help system and the wiki can start to look more and more similar
[09:13] <bhuvan> mdke: let us not postpond. let us give it a try. imo, as we are more inclined to reorganise existing material, i dont see more work but just a plan is required
[09:14] <mpt> There are some things we can do in three months, even if others take six
[09:14] <mdke> the problem is that if we try for a complete rehash, and don't have time, we will end up with nothing
[09:14] <mdke> mpt: right
[09:14] <mpt> Things like a cohesive front page
[09:14] <LaserJock> ok, so how would this change HTML and lulu.com stuff?
[09:14] <mpt> and ensuring each section is short
[09:15] <bhuvan> mpt: ok
[09:15] <LaserJock> are we going to focus on how the shipped docs are presented
[09:15] <mdke> I'd like to, yes
[09:15] <mdke> I think we can move ahead by continuing to work on the desktop and server guide, but bearing in mind those things that mpt mentioned, and maybe eliminating some overlap between them
[09:16] <bhuvan> so, to begin with, shall we prepare a list of overlapping documents
[09:16] <bhuvan> s/documents/sections
[09:16] <mdke> if the security/switching from windows things develop, they will be good too, but shouldn't overlap with the existing material
[09:16] <mpt> If publishing the UDG as a book is an important goal, maybe it can be forked from the on-screen docs and updated in parallel
[09:17] <trappist> security will overlap with server until it's ready to go, but only in places where server stuff probably should be moved to security
[09:17] <mdke> trappist: right, things can move in either direction
[09:17] <LaserJock> mpt: it's not so much of having a "book" but just having print copies available
[09:19] <mdke> I think maintaining two things separately won't be easy
[09:19] <bhuvan> mdke: true
[09:19] <LaserJock> ok, so I guess one thing I'm missing is how are the docs presented technologically
[09:19] <LaserJock> what do we need to tweak? and can we do it in Gnome as well as KDE?
[09:19] <nixternal> hiya jjesse
[09:20] <jjesse> hiya did i miss the mtg?
[09:20] <nixternal> you are just in time
[09:20] <mdke> LaserJock: I don't really think a lot needs tweaking, much can be done towards the end technologically speaking
[09:20] <mdke> we could continue to work on the UDG as it is now, bearing in mind good help principles
[09:21] <LaserJock> mdke: so the changes are mostly within the docs themselves? I'm just a little sketchy on what actually needs to be changed
[09:21] <mdke> then at the end, tidy things up
[09:21] <crimsun> if your goal is eliminating multiple "codebases" for the sake of presentations, then you will have to invest considerable time in the [separation of]  content
[09:21] <jjesse> can someone catch me up real quick?
[09:21] <bhuvan> LaserJock: may be we can add new sections in the guide
[09:21] <mdke> jjesse: should be in the log
[09:21] <mdke> jjesse: we're talking about Gnome only though
[09:21] <jjesse> ok
[09:22] <mpt> jjesse, basically talking about how to present a single help system instead of something that looks like a set of separate and sometimes-overlapping "guides"
[09:22] <jjesse> wouldn't we want to do the same sort of thing for kubuntu if it was possible?
[09:22] <mpt> sure
[09:23] <mdke> jjesse: it isn't possible, in my opinion
[09:23] <mpt> really?
[09:23] <mdke> we don't have anyone who knows anything about how the kde help system works
[09:23] <jjesse> khelpcenter?
[09:23] <mdke> maybe it can be a long term plan... but afaics, all the docs are presented as guides one under the other
[09:23] <trappist> as a kde guy I can probably find the motivation to learn it
[09:24] <nixternal> khelpcenter is pretty straight forward...a little sloppy however
[09:24] <nixternal> but then again, i know developers have been interested in getting something like "Slab" implemented..at least that is the buzz on the mailing list
[09:24] <mdke> keep going though, I'll catch up later
[09:24] <nixternal> using something like that would allow us to create a single help system
[09:25] <mpt> How would that work, nixternal?
[09:25] <nixternal> right now slab is like "Control Panel" and then some...
[09:25] <mpt> Though, if Edgy's UI was going to be based on Slab, wouldn't it have been approved at Paris?
[09:26] <nixternal> oh, well i doubt it will be in edgy
[09:26] <LaserJock> ok, so as far as revamping the help system presentation, what are specific things we can do on the edgy time frame?
[09:26] <nixternal> i was off on the edgy+1 tangent...let me get back on topic here ;)  sorry
[09:26] <mpt> What license(s) are the book extracts under?
[09:26] <LaserJock> GFDL I think
[09:27] <jjesse> the official ubuntu book?
[09:27] <mpt> yes
[09:27] <jjesse> common share one
[09:27] <jjesse> cc + sa is that what its called/
[09:27] <LaserJock> ah, yeah
[09:27] <jjesse> ?
[09:27] <mpt> So if we merge them into existing help, the existing help becomes CC-only
[09:27] <jjesse> don't have it in fron of me
[09:27] <mpt> which makes it incompatible with upstream Gnome help, gnarrrgh
[09:27] <jjesse> mpt: if i recall they are licensed under the smae license that the ubuntu docs are under
[09:28] <LaserJock> GFDL/CC-BY-SA
[09:28] <mpt> GFDL + BY-SA
[09:28] <jjesse> i can't get to my kubuntu machine right now which has them
[09:28] <mpt> ok
[09:28] <jjesse> but i'm 99% sure they are licensed udner the same as the docs are
[09:28] <mpt> well, if it's the same license
[09:28] <mpt> One thing we can do is merge the stuff from the book into the main help
[09:28] <mpt> that should be fairly easy
[09:29] <jjesse> mpt: that was the goal
[09:29] <LaserJock> ok, so we have:
[09:29] <jjesse> i know if the book sells well there are thoughts about keeping it up to date or something like that
[09:29] <LaserJock> 1) find and eliminate duplicate sections in existing guides
[09:29] <LaserJock> 2) merge content from Offical Ubuntu Book
[09:30] <bhuvan> 3) include new sections in existing guides (if we have)
[09:30] <mpt> Another thing which is mostly organizational, not writing, is making sure each section is targeted at answering a specific question or explaining a specific topic
[09:30] <jjesse> the only new guide that has been proposed is the switching from windows to *ubuntu which we have a group working on 
[09:31] <trappist> and the security guide
[09:31] <trappist> that's just me so far, and I haven't been very noisy about it
[09:31] <mpt> In the new-writing area, the biggest holes seem to be (a) how to connect to the Internet, (b) how to switch from Windows, and (c) how to print stuff
[09:32] <pygi> trappist, jjesse: and the Edubuntu Handbook which will go into docteam svn from this release
[09:32] <jjesse> the how to switch from windows will be taken care of
[09:32] <mpt> cool
[09:32] <jjesse> oooo good news pygi
[09:32] <bhuvan> trappist: can we merge it with server guide?
[09:33] <LaserJock> ok, what about grabing wiki content for the docs?
[09:33] <mpt> I asked on ubuntu-doc@ if all help.ubuntu.com was public domain yet
[09:33] <mpt> but didn't get a reply
[09:33] <trappist> bhuvan: it's not going to be server-specific.  much of it will also apply to desktops.
[09:33] <mpt> Anyone know?
[09:33] <jjesse> trappist: will it deal w/ security for the server ad aslo desktops
[09:33] <jjesse> i thought it was
[09:33] <trappist> yes
[09:33] <LaserJock> mpt: not all, since the docs are not
[09:33] <bhuvan> trappist: point
[09:34] <mpt> LaserJock, good point, I should have said help.ubuntu.com/community :-)
[09:34] <LaserJock> mpt: help.ubuntu.com/community is going to be PDish but I'm not sure if that is finalized yet
[09:34] <mpt> ok, I'll nag mdke about that some more
[09:34] <trappist> is a customized help browser part of the idea of a unified help system?
[09:35] <LaserJock> last I heard (which was some time ago) he was waiting on the CC to do a final approval or something
[09:35] <mpt> trappist, I doubt it unless you have it already implemented and it's better than yelp :-)
[09:36] <LaserJock> well, but tweaking yelp should be possible, no?
[09:36] <trappist> heh no, I just have this grandiose idea in the back of my head that can deal with kde/gnome/ubuntu docs and search forums and the wiki on the side
[09:36] <bhuvan> ok, it's 1am here. i'm going to sleep. go ahead, i'll go through the logs
[09:36] <mpt> yelp upstream are doing a pretty good job of improving it
[09:36] <bhuvan> good night all
[09:36] <mpt> the search will be much better than it is in Dapper, for example
[09:36] <LaserJock> cya bhuvan 
[09:37] <mpt> I'll also make a wiki page about how to structure an on-screen help page (about 4 paragraphs), and announce it on the mailing list
[09:37] <mpt> Then I'll start updating the UDG to match :-)
[09:37] <jjesse> mpt: if possible i think the kdg shoud match as much as possible
[09:37] <mpt> jjesse and ... I forget his name, you're writing the switching-to-windows stuff?
[09:37] <LaserJock> yeah, it's perhaps the non-doc person in my, but I'm have a hard time "seeing" what we are trying to do
[09:37] <jjesse> nixternal and philbull
[09:37] <nixternal> hello
[09:38] <mpt> philbull, right
[09:38] <nixternal> ;)
[09:38] <mpt> ok
[09:38] <trappist> switching *to* windows?! was that a typo?
[09:38] <nixternal> ya
[09:38] <mpt> arg
[09:38] <nixternal> hahahah
[09:38] <jjesse> switchin grom windows
[09:38] <mpt> You got me, I'm a secret Microsoft agent
[09:38] <nixternal> Switching From Windows!!!
[09:39] <mpt> Anyone want to volunteer to write more detailed help about how to connect to the Internet?
[09:40] <jjesse> it would need to be added to the desktop guide 
[09:40] <mpt> yes
[09:40] <jjesse> for both kdg and udg
[09:40] <pygi> what can be hard in connecting to internet? you mean configuring adsl, stuff?
[09:40] <LaserJock> not me, I just plug in the cable and it works
[09:40] <jjesse> configuring dsl, dealing w/ modems
[09:41] <LaserJock> winmodems?
[09:41] <jjesse> i guess i dont know
[09:41] <trappist> the more that's covered the better, I think - not being able to connect from Linux is a dealbreaker for a lot of new users
[09:42] <pygi> LaserJock: winmodems are a pain :-/
[09:42] <mpt> pygi, connecting with dial-up, connecting with wireless, connecting using a cable modem, sharing an Internet connection with another Ubuntu machine, sharing a connection with a Windows machine
[09:42] <pygi> mpt: when would such a thing need to be done?
[09:42] <jjesse> edgy
[09:42] <mpt> pygi, as soon as possible :-)
[09:42] <pygi> mpt: ok, sorry then :P
[09:43] <mpt> but yes, preferably by Edgy
[09:44] <LaserJock> it might help us out a bit if we started using specs more  to chart this stuff
[09:45] <jjesse> +1  laserjock
[09:46] <jjesse> we should be using launchpad
[09:47] <LaserJock> well, we have a LP product so I guess we could do specs on there
[09:47] <mdke> back
[09:47] <mpt> our fearless leader returns!
[09:47] <LaserJock> \o/
[09:47] <mdke> we have wiki pages for these issues, we just need to use em
[09:47] <LaserJock> mdke: but LP might be easier for tracking status etc, no?
[09:47] <jjesse> when was that wiki page last updated?
[09:48] <mpt> mdke, tell us about the public domain wiki issue
[09:48] <mdke> mpt: it was going well, but some people, including some important ones, complained and it went back into not-sure land.
[09:48] <mdke> it has been dormant for a while because I haven't nagged the CC aside from sending the occasional email that didn't get answered
[09:49] <mdke> the main problem is really that people don't like the idea that their material can be copied and put under a non-free licence
[09:49] <mdke> LaserJock: status of? bugs?
[09:49] <LaserJock> I think https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+specs might be a good place to start specing things out
[09:49] <LaserJock> mdke: progress
[09:49] <mdke> well, we have a bug about implementing stuff about modems and so on
[09:50] <mdke> it isn't actually much work to take the material from the wiki, assuming it works
[09:50] <mdke> I don't think a spec is needed for that specifically, although for other stuff, it might be useful. I don't think we should spec absolutely everything, because it will take ages :)
[09:50] <LaserJock> yeah
[09:50] <mpt> Yes, it's easy to get caught up in virtual paperwork
[09:51] <LaserJock> but we have *no* specs on there so it seems like it's a tool that isn't being utilized
[09:51] <mpt> (especially in Launchpad)
[09:51] <mdke> LaserJock: hey, I registered one for the wiki quality assurance thing >_< and we used it for BetterWikiDocs and WikiLicensing
[09:51] <LaserJock> the ubuntu specs yeah
[09:52] <LaserJock> I'm  talking about the ubuntu-doc product
[09:52] <mdke> we can use it for major projects sure...
[09:52] <mdke> ok, so let's try and draw some strings together
[09:52] <mdke> mpt is going to do some things about style and approach
[09:53] <mpt> yep
[09:53] <mdke> shall we say that we will move forward with the current documents and try and make as consistent a yelp front page as possible for now?
[09:53] <mdke> maybe eliminate overlaps and improve consistency of approach between desktop and server guides
[09:54] <mdke> and see how we go?
[09:54] <nixternal> jjesse: "Switching From Windows" when I start creating content, should I just email you the files so they can get uploaded to svn?
[09:55] <jjesse> nixternal: sure for now until we get you an account, now that you are a ubuntu member :0
[09:55] <nixternal> woohoo!! ;)
[09:55] <LaserJock> mdke: I guess, meanwhile we should be working on detailing what we want the help system to look like in the future
[09:56] <mdke> LaserJock: sure
[09:56] <nixternal> now i just need docteam member, then i could retire and die a happy man
[09:56] <mdke> eventually, I'd like it to look the same as the wiki. But that may be a few releases ahead if it could work
[09:57] <LaserJock> really?
[09:57] <mpt> the wiki can afford to have a wordier front page, because a browser window is usually larger than a yelp one
[09:58] <mdke> right, but in essense I don't see any reason why they should be different
[09:58] <LaserJock> do you mean they should be consistent
[09:58] <mdke> the wiki gets the contribution, and if the quality assurance works, it can be filtered into the help system
[09:58] <nixternal> mdke: that would be nice to have something like that w/o a doubt
[09:59] <nixternal> the qa is going to be a fairly large scale project though, imho
[09:59] <mpt> licensing and Qa, two fun topics
[09:59] <mdke> nixternal: sure, but it works for wikipedia :)
[09:59] <nixternal> no doubt
[09:59] <mdke> it can work for us too
[09:59] <mdke> upstream is planning a radical shakeup with the help system in the next couple of releases to allow modular help, that will help.
[09:59] <nixternal> very true mdke, but also wikipedia has paid admins that do nothing but verify all day long ;)
[10:00] <mdke> right, it will never be on the same scale
[10:00] <mdke> but the principle works
[10:00] <mpt> I wouldn't want Wikipedia-style stuff being frozen in amber for a LTS release, that would be scary
[10:00] <mdke> mpt: it would be reviewed by us and filtered into the help system. I think it will work.
[10:01] <mpt> yes
[10:01] <mdke> anyhow, that's in the future
[10:01] <mdke> shall we move onto other matters now?
[10:02] <LaserJock> what is our current, new member proccesing like? is it still difficult?
[10:02] <lloydinho> crud. Did I just get here an hour late?
[10:02] <LaserJock> lloydinho: yes
[10:02] <LaserJock> but we are still going
[10:02] <mdke> LaserJock: yes
[10:03] <LaserJock> mdke: anything we can do on our end other than whine and complain?
[10:03] <mdke> LaserJock: it hasn't really been a problem tbh... I've got well used to bugging the admins about stuff
[10:03] <jjesse> i don't know if we still have the requirement of being a ubuntu member for access to svn upload
[10:03] <lloydinho_> gah.
[10:04] <crimsun> mdke: which admins do you have to bug, elmo and/or znarl?
[10:04] <mdke> crimsun: right
[10:04] <mdke> I have a good bugging relationship with them
[10:04] <jjesse> but i don't know know if anyone follows this besdies nixternal and i but ther is now a kubuntu community council that requries approval to become a kubuntu member so i would like to propose that a person could have svn commit rights if they contribute and are a ubuntu or kubuntu member
[10:04] <crimsun> is there any LP infrastructure (the equivalent of soyuz) in place to facilitate said processing -- or is any planned?
[10:05] <mdke> crimsun: no, it doesn't do svn access control
[10:05] <LaserJock> jjesse: they are the same
[10:05] <nixternal> kubuntu member == ubuntu member now, yes
[10:05] <LaserJock> ubuntu memeber = kubuntu member = edubuntu member
[10:05] <mdke> jjesse: that's the current system
[10:05] <jjesse> LaserJock: i didn't realize they were now the ssame
[10:05] <mdke> we assess contributions from people and if they can write well and know docbook/svn, we grant them access
[10:05] <nixternal> i didn't see the edubuntu part, but cool none the less..and i promise to start helping that out as well
[10:05] <LaserJock> jjesse: they always were
[10:06] <jjesse> well things are a little different i thought w/ the kubuntu council and the abitlity to be a member of the kubuntu team
[10:06] <mpt> LP code management is all about bzr
[10:06] <jjesse> and we don't want to move to bzr 
[10:06] <crimsun> mdke: how about approving them for a team that has svn write access?
[10:07] <mdke> crimsun: I don't follow... 
[10:07] <LaserJock> ideally ubuntu-doc should be that
[10:07] <mdke> right, we try and make ubuntu-doc be the same as the people who have commit access
[10:07] <crimsun> mdke: I understand the current system, but the ideal is to be able to have it automated once you guys/gals feel the applicants are ready. Yes.
[10:07] <pygi> nixternal: howcome you didnt? we wrote cookbook ages ago :P
[10:08] <mdke> crimsun: right, but launchpad doesn't do that
[10:08] <nixternal> i apologize..i have been trying to get it incorporated with a couple of projects here..and have 20 machines running it now in an underprivildged day care right now
[10:08] <crimsun> mdke: I understand that. :-)  The second part of my question was whether there are [you knew of]  plans to develop that integration.
[10:09] <mdke> crimsun: ah, sorry. Don't think so.
[10:09] <mdke> mpt will know more
[10:09] <mdke> jjesse: kubuntu is well organised now for edgy, right?
[10:10] <LaserJock> well, I think that we'd probably want to move to bzr to use LP like that
[10:10] <jjesse> mdke: yeah just need to start updating the release notes etc
[10:10] <jjesse> i haven't spoken w/ robotgeek to see if he wanted to do the desktop guide updates again, but we should a good grup
[10:10] <mdke> good. So we should update the projects page after this evenings discussion. mpt do you want to be put down for the desktop guide as a maintainer?
[10:11] <mdke> have we any news on Edubuntu/Xubuntu projects for edgy? Any sign of Edubuntu working with the docteam?
[10:11] <LaserJock> yes
[10:11] <pygi> mdke: there are signs, I am here :)
[10:11] <mpt> mdke, sure
[10:11] <LaserJock> pygi and HedgeMage  are here
[10:11] <jjesse> i heard edubuntu is moving into svn?
[10:11] <mdke> mpt: great.
[10:11] <pygi> jjesse: we are trying :)
[10:11] <mdke> LaserJock: splendid
[10:12] <LaserJock> mdke: I'll like to get Edubuntu docs going more
[10:12] <HedgeMage> I'm here
[10:12] <mdke> pygi: do you need help with converting the wiki into docbook? there are good tools now
[10:12] <mdke> it can be directly converted to valid docbook
[10:12] <pygi> mdke: if that means less manual work, sure :P
[10:12] <HedgeMage> mdke: someone posted a dockbook-ized version of the old wiki stuff to the mailing list :)
[10:12] <LaserJock> mdke: a question that has come up at the last doc team meeting was what content can go on help.ubuntu.com
[10:12] <HedgeMage> mdke: so I already have it :)
[10:13] <mdke> HedgeMage: has the wiki changed since then
[10:13] <mdke> ?
[10:13] <pygi> mdke: nop
[10:13] <HedgeMage> mdke: not really, all we did was add some info about SVN and the new handbook
[10:13] <mdke> ok, great. THat was Sean who posted that
[10:13] <pygi> that old cookbook content wont change probably
[10:13] <mdke> so I'm sure it was good stuff :)
[10:13] <HedgeMage> I just need to get around to slicing it up into useful chunks... probably this weekend.
[10:14] <mdke> cool. so we can expect a massive patch? ;)
[10:14] <HedgeMage> We have a Handbook meeting in an hour or so if anyone is interested
[10:14] <jjesse> does anyone know if doc-commits mailing list is behind?  i heard it was?
[10:14] <pygi> mdke: perhaps if we can get a commit access :)
[10:14] <pygi> or you could commit it :P
[10:14] <mdke> pygi: we prefer to see patches first, and we will check and commit
[10:14] <HedgeMage> mdke: Yep, once I get it sliced up and redone to match our new organization.  Hopefully at least a couple more Handbook people will get SVN access eventually.
[10:14] <mdke> once we are confident it's all valid docbook and you know what you're doing with that, we'll arrange access
[10:14] <LaserJock> jerome and I have offered to sponsor patches until they get access
[10:15] <mdke> good
[10:15] <mdke> nice
[10:15] <mdke> LaserJock: what was the question?
[10:15] <pygi> and jerome :P
[10:15] <HedgeMage> :)
[10:15] <LaserJock> mdke: well, Edubuntu has a few docs on the website and they were wondering if they could be placed on help.ubuntu.com
[10:16] <mdke> yeah, that would be good
[10:16] <LaserJock> do we have a policy for what can be on help.ubuntu.com?
[10:16] <mdke> for the wiki, or the static section?
[10:16] <LaserJock> static
[10:16] <mdke> can you post the links to the mailing list and we can check em out with a bit more care
[10:17] <LaserJock> ok
[10:17] <mdke> I don't see a problem
[10:17] <LaserJock> I just didn't know so I told them I'd ask
[10:17] <mdke> cool
[10:17] <mdke> no one has heard anything about Xubuntu I guess?
[10:18] <mdke> well, we can ask around. Any other business?
[10:18] <crimsun> I'll ask Gauvain and Jani reading docs.
[10:18] <jjesse> is anyone doing knot cds for ubuntu?
[10:18] <mdke> ah good point, you mean the reviews?
[10:19] <jjesse> i know nixternal has volunteered for kubuntu (and everyone should have seen it in the announcement)
[10:19] <LaserJock> oh, that reminds me. How is the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (is that the right name)?
[10:19] <jjesse> i mean like mgalvin did for flights
[10:19] <mdke> I updated the testing page today because it still pointed at Dapper... I just added a link to the release, I haven't seen any reviews
[10:19] <mdke> maybe mgalvin can tell us more
[10:19] <nixternal> i volunteer for anything i can do to help...Ubuntu has provided a lot for me, and it is only one way for me to contribute back to the community ;)
[10:20] <mdke> nixternal: feel free to check out the dapper ones and do what you can for the knot releases. Mgalvin will almost certainly help
[10:20] <jjesse> mdke: he has the kubuntu one that is rocking
[10:20] <jjesse> especially for knot 1
[10:20] <mdke> yeah
[10:20] <nixternal> mgalvin i believe is afk...so far the kubuntu knot is the ONLY knot testing page otu there
[10:21] <mdke> nixternal: that's ok, it doesn't have to be done for EVERY release. It wasn't for dapper
[10:21] <mdke> see http://www.ubuntu.com/testing
[10:21] <nixternal> that is where i got my layout on the wiki from
[10:22] <mdke> right
[10:22] <mdke> splendid. Any other other business?
[10:22] <jjesse> none from me
[10:23] <LaserJock> how's the style guide?
[10:24] <LaserJock> I looked through it on doc.ubuntu.com the other day
[10:24] <mdke> lots of gaps in that. We should add lots of the things mpt has been discussing on the mailing list and some information about which docbook tags to use for stuff
[10:27] <LaserJock> well, for the Packaging Guide I'm revamping quite a bit and hope to get lots of help. Much earlier review from  developers will be key for edgy
[10:28] <LaserJock> jerome also mentioned that it mad a tiny blurb in the eweek Dapper review, which is cool
[10:28] <LaserJock> s/mad/made/
[10:28] <mdke> cool
[10:29] <LaserJock> it still seems out of place to me in the system documentation
[10:29] <LaserJock> but maybe we can add some other material eventually to not make it so lonely ;-)
[10:29] <nixternal> hehe
[10:29] <nixternal> im working on some material for the SFW docs
[10:30] <nixternal> and once the SFW is completed, i may go a little more advanced and in-depth if there are not objections of course
[10:30] <mpt> "We were impressed to find included among the very good documentation that ships with Ubuntu a software packaging guide."
[10:31] <LaserJock> I'm really interested in "How to contribute to Ubuntu" type docs
[10:31] <LaserJock> I hope we can get the basics covered enough that eventually we can do more with it
[10:32] <crimsun> docs are a bit impersonal for that, I think.
[10:33] <crimsun> that's the whole point of our initial-mentor-phase
[10:33] <nixternal> i agree, but at the same time, it wouldn't hurt for someone to read/find it after installing their new Kubuntu system for the first time ;)
[10:33] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, sometimes you need a textbook to go along with the lecture ;-)
[10:33] <HedgeMage> crimsun: Honestly, there are many people who I believe would be *more* likely to get involved if they could read some details and roll it around in their heads for a bit... it makes it more tangible for some folks.
[10:34] <nixternal> the new guy/girl who just installed Kubuntu loves it, but doesn't scour the forums or the wiki, or evern the tabs on ubuntu.com...they see a section of "Helping Out" in the docs on their new system, it could possibly work
[10:34] <lloydinho_> Hey, I'd like to help writing some "How to contribute" docs
[10:34] <crimsun> how do we integrate http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate into it?
[10:35] <crimsun> it already has a decent overview
[10:35] <LaserJock> sure
[10:36] <nixternal> true it does, but i can guarantee that not everyone with an ubuntu system has even paid attention to that page..however, what i am saying does sound like trying to force something at them, which we dont' want, because that is exactly what the evil empire does
[10:36] <HedgeMage> nixternal: I think that depends on what tone it's written in.
[10:36] <LaserJock> I don't know, I feel like the biggest problem that we face (doc writers) is not the content but getting people to the contenc
[10:37] <LaserJock> we almost need a doc marketing team
[10:37] <mpt> For example, http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/42575
[10:37] <mpt> Nary a mention of the built-in help
[10:37] <HedgeMage> If it's not written in an aggressive-salesperson tone, it could be more of an "inside look" sort of thing on what we do and how our volunteers help out.
[10:37] <mdke> LaserJock: very true
[10:37] <mdke> I'd like to see the help menu actually thought out for edgy
[10:38] <lloydinho_> yes. the current five options aren't clear at all.
[10:38] <LaserJock> and I'd never go to System Documentation
[10:38] <LaserJock> I'd go Online Documentation or something else
[10:39] <mdke> sadly I am not confident on convincing Mark. I will try though
[10:39] <LaserJock> System sounds to sterile and techincaal for me
[10:39] <crimsun> ok, this is going to sound very misplaced since this is the /doc team/, but you can't fight economies of scale. There are so many sites popping up that answer these questions. Not only do we need a centralised doc system, but we need to at least consider integrating these external systems.
[10:39] <lloydinho_> how would you do that?
[10:40] <crimsun> that's up for discussion at some point
[10:40] <lloydinho_> I tried to contact a few of them to make them aware of the docteam effort, but they prefer to do their own thing.
[10:40] <LaserJock> again, I think some of that is marketing
[10:40] <lloydinho_> As long as they don't spread misinformation, I guess we
[10:40] <lloydinho_> 'll have to accept it.
[10:41] <mpt> That's why I suggested the one thing we can do in Edgy, which is suck in the book excerpts so that that menu item is no longer there
[10:41] <HedgeMage> I tend to think that some heterogenity is good... different support venues will have different tones or atmosphere, and someone comfortable with one might not find another appealing
[10:41] <LaserJock> mpt: well, I think that might be more a Mark issue than a doc team issue
[10:41] <mdke> mpt: Mark was totally unmoveable
[10:42] <mdke> like, totally
[10:42] <crimsun> I completely concur that integrating the book excerpts would be quite nice.
[10:42] <mpt> How often do the excerpts mention Dapper specifically? :-)
[10:42] <LaserJock> we can integrat them, but I don't think we will neccesarily get rid of the Help item in doing so
[10:42] <crimsun> mdke: the approach, then, would be to mobilise the community to overrule him, aka "baby jebus cries"
[10:42] <lloydinho_> crimsun: I did this wiki page on contacting independent doc efforts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts 
[10:43] <mdke> crimsun: I will blog about it, and see if people agree
[10:43] <lloydinho_> I think that's about the best we can do at present.
[10:43] <crimsun> mdke: awesome
[10:43] <crimsun> lloydinho_: looking
[10:44] <crimsun> lloydinho_: that's excellent. We should be updating that as we come across the more active Ubuntu-centric ones.
[10:44] <lloydinho_> that was the plan, but I have neglected it somewhat since putting it up.
[10:46] <LaserJock> well, I don't think you can ever get ride of "the unoffical Ubuntu guide" style stuff
[10:46] <LaserJock> it seem more a counter-culture sort of thing
[10:46] <lloydinho_> yes. And they like it that way.
[10:47] <crimsun> then we shouldn't be trying to get rid of it. HedgeMage raises an extremely useful point.
[10:47] <LaserJock> but it *is* a problem, IMO, when most users know about those sites and not the doc team work that is sitting on the users computer
[10:47] <crimsun> anyhow, thanks for everyone's time.
[10:47] <mdke> yes, cya all
[10:47] <mdke> we'll follow up on the mailing list
[10:48] <lloydinho_> yes, as I said, the best we can do it is track it - and perhaps ask all of these sites to refer to the help.ubuntu.com as well.
[10:48] <lloydinho_> ... oh. Are we done?
[10:48] <mdke> lloydinho_: keep chatting, but I think the meeting is done, yeah
[10:48] <lloydinho_> cool. I can put these random thoughts of mine into a mail, instead.
[10:49] <mpt> thanks mdke 
[10:49] <LaserJock> yeah, thanks everybody! we had a long but productive meeting I think
[10:49] <lloydinho_> sorry I was late for this. Let me know if I can help with anything.
[10:49] <LaserJock> don't worry, we will! mwuahahaha
[10:50] <lloydinho_> *uh-oh*
[10:52] <pygi> HedgeMage: I'll be sleeping :P
[10:52] <nixternal> i will be there HedgeMage, without a doubt..i need to start working more with edubuntu!!!
[10:52] <HedgeMage> nixternal: awesome :)
[10:52] <nixternal> i will be there to follow along
[10:52] <HedgeMage> pygi: oh, I suppose you're allowed to sleep :P
[10:52] <pygi> nixternal: nice, feel free to jump in the discussion and contribution :)
[10:52] <nixternal> pygi: you got lucky on that one, because you can sleep after the meeting ;)
[10:53] <pygi> HedgeMage: really? wow, what I did to deserve this? :P
[10:53] <pygi> nixternal: it's been a heavy day for me today really :P
[10:53] <nixternal> hehe..understandable
[10:53] <HedgeMage> pygi: I just enjoy picking on you.  It's among my favorite IRC-based sports :P
[10:54] <pygi> nixternal: anyway, once you have good contributions feel free to apply for the membership and say that at the meeting :P
[10:55] <LaserJock> shesh, you guys need to take this back over to #edubuntu ;-)
[10:55] <LaserJock> kids these days ;-)
[10:55] <HedgeMage> hehe
[10:55] <pygi> LaserJock: :P
[10:55] <HedgeMage> LaserJock: just a kid at heart, does that count?
[10:55] <LaserJock> yes
[10:55] <LaserJock> and the channel noise is there to prove it :-)
[10:56] <HedgeMage> :P
[10:56] <LaserJock> because that is your usual sandbox
[10:57] <LaserJock> lloydinho_: still around? I pm'd you
[10:57] <lloydinho_> yes. And I answered! :-)
[10:58] <LaserJock> lloydinho_: do you have a registered nick? I didn't get anything
[10:59] <lloydinho_> that is strange.
[10:59] <lloydinho_> I haven't registered this one with the underscore.
[11:00] <lloydinho_> I have to figure out how to kill the zombie one without the underscore and rename my current login to that.
[11:00] <lloydinho_> sorry, I'm still pretty hopeless at IRC.
[11:01] <LaserJock> me too
[11:01] <LaserJock> HedgeMage: do you know? ^^
[11:02] <HedgeMage> lloydinho_: is the zombie registered?
[11:02] <lloydinho_> yes.
[11:02] <HedgeMage> then do : /msg nickserv ghost lloydinho password
[11:02] <lloydinho_> okay. thanks!
[11:02] <HedgeMage> (obviously use the pw instead of the word "password")
[11:02] <HedgeMage> np :)
[11:03] <LaserJock> excellent thanks HedgeMage 
[11:04] <lloydinho> aha!
[11:04] <lloydinho> LaserJock: I wrote you back on PM, anything?
[11:04] <LaserJock> nope
[11:05] <LaserJock> lloydinho: ok, do you do jabber?
[11:06] <lloydinho> I haven't tried it..
[11:06] <lloydinho> LaserJock: But it'll probably work better than this.. (strange)
[11:07] <lloydinho> I'll just restart xchat and see if it helps.
[11:10] <lloydinho_> LaserJock: I give up.
[11:10] <LaserJock> hehe, oh well
[11:11] <lloydinho_> hm.
[11:12] <lloydinho_> I'll try the Jabber stuff, though.
[11:13] <lloydinho_> lloydinho@jabber.org
[11:22] <theCore> LaserJock: pong
[11:22] <HedgeMage> lloydinho_: mind if I add you as well?
[11:26] <lloydinho_> HedgeMage: no, go right ahead :-)
[11:27] <HedgeMage> :)