[08:39] <Klaidas> @schedule Vilnius
[08:39] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 21 Jul 22:00: Ubuntu Marketing Team | 26 Jul 15:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jul 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 Aug 23:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 23:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:39] <imbrandon> @now
[08:39] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 21 2006, 18:39:29 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Marketing Team in 20 minutes
[08:48] <GNAM> @schedule rome
[08:49] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 21 Jul 21:00: Ubuntu Marketing Team | 26 Jul 14:00: Edubuntu | 28 Jul 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
[08:51] <Klaidas> jenda, ping ;)
[08:53] <jenda> Klaidas: pong
[08:53] <jenda> ooh, already?
[08:53] <jenda> @now
[08:53] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: July 21 2006, 18:53:30 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Marketing Team
[08:53] <Klaidas> yup :)
[08:53] <jenda> wasn't it scheduled for 19:00? :)
[08:53] <Klaidas> but how come it's today, I thought it's every two weeks?
[08:54] <Klaidas> umm
[08:54] <Klaidas> Ubugtu says, it's now :)
[08:55] <jenda> Klaidas: we made it earlier. I asked at the meeting last time if anyone minded. I wanted to get SU a little furthered, because I'm leaving for three weeks.
[08:55] <jenda> (No one opposed the idea)
[08:56] <Klaidas> oh, ok :)
[08:56] <jenda> Ubugtu seems to announce meetings a few minutes early. Let's start in those four minutes... :) I want at least someone to turn up...
[08:57] <Klaidas> ok, i'll go get some tea ;)
[09:00] <jenda> Hello, sara_ and _sara
[09:03] <jenda> OKay...
[09:03] <jenda> Are there any of the people who submitted SpreadUbuntu designs around?
[09:05] <jenda> hello nixternal 
[09:05] <jenda> the meeting seems rather... poorly attended :)
[09:05] <nixternal> well hello there
[09:05] <nixternal> it looks like it
[09:06] <jenda> I'd like at least some of the designers to have come... but it's not happening. Is there anyone who'd like to comment on the SU designs?
[09:06] <nixternal> can i vote on some of the designs for spread ubuntu?
[09:06] <nixternal> hehe
[09:06] <nixternal> there are 2 i really like i think..link me again
[09:06] <_sara> I also like ehat I see
[09:07] <jenda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/SpreadUbuntu/GraphicalDesignSpec
[09:07] <jenda> I was about to link the one I found original... but the link is broke, gimme a sec.
[09:08] <_sara> the one by nestor
[09:08] <nixternal> i love the cleanliness of ubuntu-geek's design
[09:08] <jenda> _sara: exactly
[09:08] <jenda> The docteam server fails, for some reason, give me three seconds...
[09:09] <nixternal> i like the "see it, try it, get it, ship it, spread it" icons from kassetra
[09:09] <jenda> nixternal: check :)
[09:09] <jenda> That's exactly what I'd like to do - piece it together...
[09:09] <nixternal> but truthfully, Just Hayes design with the correct colors is the winner for me ;)
[09:09] <nixternal> as it blends with the ubuntu website
[09:10] <nixternal> which i just found out is using Plone..because im trying to get the same look for http://chi.ubuntu-us.org
[09:11] <_sara> uhh
[09:11] <jenda> Would you guys think asking Kassetra to get the design in order for the marketing team is a good idea?
[09:12] <jenda> As in - making an amalgam of the existing designs according to the outcome of this meeting?
[09:12] <_sara> sounds good to me
[09:13] <jenda> nixternal?
[09:13] <ormiret> Do we have to hand off to one person?
[09:13] <nixternal> i like the design...but why pick one person, is there a reason?
[09:13] <jenda> No, we do not - but if we do not, I'm quite sure it will not be done. I won't be here to push the designers.
[09:14] <nixternal> ok..if we want to stick with the Ubuntu layout, then we need everyone to help..however, if we pick another design, then ok
[09:14] <nixternal> i like the layout and flow of Ubuntu-Geeks design..however, there are others with the globe that are HOT!!!
[09:14] <Klaidas> Ubuntu-Geek's design seems nice - warm calours, easy, light design , I like it
[09:14] <jenda> I, for one, don't think we should stick to it too stubbornly. But the top bar might be a nice idea.
[09:15] <ormiret> I think people can cooperate without being pushed. We can come up with a timeline now.
[09:15] <jenda> I'm coming back on the 12th, and would like to have a skeleton of the site up for content to be added.
[09:17] <_sara> I think that setting a dateline should be fine
[09:17] <nixternal> you know...Alecks has the hottest design, no doubt about it...and it would function as one of those "target hit pages" that the firefox team does to get hits and to populate their ideas
[09:17] <jenda> OK... but I don't think just ending the meeting now with 'people will cooperate on the design' will result in having a completed design.
[09:17] <ormiret> what needs done to achieve that?
[09:17] <mhz> could we set a kind of 'contest' ?
[09:18] <nixternal> like if we had a "Spread Ubuntu" button for web sites to display...and they clicked the link...and came to Alecks's layout...that would be pretty awesome
[09:18] <ormiret> a skeleton of a site is a fairly vague definition.
[09:18] <mhz> this way there will be 'objectives', 'timeline', etc.
[09:18] <mhz> and 'voting'
[09:18] <jenda> OTOH, if we ask one of the proposed designs authors, they will (happily, I think) take it on their shoulders to create a design and ask others for help / accept help when offered.
[09:18] <nixternal> however...one thing needs to be known...the pages sizes should be optimized for 800x600...just in case, because we are not only marketing to people with 21 lcd's, but people with 15" crts
[09:19] <jenda> mhz: that has already happened, in a way. We have about 7 proposals now (more, but from 7 people)
[09:19] <_sara> So how are we going to pick one
[09:19] <nixternal> how about we tell all the designers, we like this layout, with this look, and these buttons, and would like you all to create a collaboration of the designs we enjoy
[09:19] <nixternal> and then they can submit new creations
[09:19] <jenda> And I was going to vote/choose a person at this meeting who would take care of getting the job done...
[09:19] <jenda> hmm
[09:19] <jenda> interesting
[09:20] <ormiret> I don't think we can pick a person and land them with the job when they aren't here.
[09:20] <jenda> nixternal: that seems to be a little overkill: I think they were instructed to do that _till_ now.
[09:20] <_sara> that is like seven people, and that is alot of people to collaborate
[09:20] <jenda> ormiret: I'd ask the person personally if need be
[09:20] <nixternal> it could be overkill all it wants to be, it will get us the designs we like, then so be it
[09:20] <nixternal> if it will get*
[09:21] <nixternal> there is nothing wrong with saying, hey we really like your design, but there are other ideas we would like to see implemented...can you all do a redesign using the stuff we like
[09:21] <jenda> And will it? I think it has already been happening, and now is the time to continue on one single piece of work...
[09:21] <nixternal> beat the dead horse, i dont' care, as long as a design is created that WE ALL like
[09:21] <jenda> hehe :)
[09:22] <nixternal> right now, we are all going, well i like this design, and i like those buttons, and i like these colors, and that is cool
[09:22] <nixternal> we need to bring it all together now
[09:22] <Klaidas> I might be missing something, but will there be a voting to decide which design we will use?
[09:22] <_sara> Yeah, maybe we don't need to pick one but narrow them dowan and then ask for a last refinement
[09:22] <nixternal> yes
[09:22] <nixternal> Klaidas: i am sure we will vote on a design
[09:22] <nixternal> and maybe the current designs should be placed in a poll..and then everyone can vote on it, and add comments
[09:23] <jenda> Yes, and I'd like a single person to put it all together. We should choose that person according to those designs (and choose a second and third if they decline...)
[09:23] <nixternal> we can take the most popular comments, ideas, and design, and work on implementing them
[09:23] <jenda> Klaidas: we will discuss, and see if we get consent or almost-consent :)
[09:23] <nixternal> or, you can create a poll in the forusm correct?
[09:23] <mhz> or we can create a poll in Moin too
[09:23] <jenda> Hmm...
[09:24] <Klaidas> Or create one poll, and lik to it from everywhere
[09:24] <Klaidas> *link
[09:24] <ormiret> I don't think this meeting is well enough attended to make any descisions, so wiki/forum polls sound better to me.
[09:24] <jenda> I don't think we should, because that way the results are very, very unreliable. How do we decide who can vote and who can't - and if everyone can, it's simply very vague - anyone can convince X people to vote this way or that.
[09:25] <mhz> true
[09:26] <ormiret> do the vote on the ML then.
[09:26] <Klaidas> True, but the website is for public, not for us only
[09:26] <ormiret> we do still need to decide who has a vote...
[09:26] <_sara> Maybe you should extend that to marketing team contributors
[09:26] <jenda> Makes sense, to an extent...
[09:27] <jenda> Do you mean all LP MT members?
[09:27] <nixternal> that is very true..what we can do is set a meeting date, no less then 2 weeks in advanced..and let it be known we will be voting on stuff...and if 5 people show up, then 5 people vote and thats that
[09:28] <Klaidas> you mean a meeting for voting?
[09:28] <jenda> I think this is too complicated. We do not have a council, so we can't make fair votes, I think.
[09:28] <nixternal> now, if an even amount show up and there is a split, we need to find an arbitrator ;)
[09:28] <jenda> Polls are OK to see the public opinion
[09:28] <ormiret> I don't like doing it live cause it gives too much power to those who happen to be in the most convenient timezones
[09:28] <jenda> nixternal: I disagree. This meeting was announced 8 days beforehand
[09:28] <_sara> yea all LP members, I don't know about the meeting some timezones ar enot conviniets
[09:29] <jenda> Well, it's not like we are deciding anything that important.
[09:29] <mhz> why would people vote if they are not interested? Why would someone convince X people to vote for his design? We have Code of Conduct
[09:29] <nixternal> that is true...then we should send out an email stating, if you cannot be at the meeting, here is the agenda, email us your views and what not
[09:29] <jenda> mhz: that is very true, but the poll doesn't guarantee best results.
[09:29] <mhz> right
[09:30] <mhz> but voting does
[09:30] <jenda> nixternal: I really want to have this decided at the end of this meeting, or tomorrow at worst, because I'm leaving then.
[09:30] <nixternal> ok, no polls because they aren't accurate, no voting because we don't have a cc...draw from a hat?
[09:30] <ormiret> jenda: other people can count votes
[09:30] <nixternal> and who draws, because if we don't like the outcome, others will get upset
[09:30] <ormiret> we can decide on a mechanism to vote now
[09:31] <Klaidas> No matter what we would do, it won't bee good for 100% of people
[09:31] <jenda> mhz: no, it does not, unless a qualified group does the voting (eg: all citizens -criminals and judges; community members or community council)
[09:31] <nixternal> how do we decide what gets implemented, ever way for a member or the community to get involved at this point is impossible due the poll issue and us not having a cc structure
[09:31] <_sara> can you limit who can vote on launchpad polls
[09:31] <nixternal> how about we work on that, and then decide on designs..because right now it is pretty confusing
[09:32] <jenda> _sara: yes, but we can't decide on that.
[09:32] <ormiret> we can manually count votes if necessary, what we really need to decide is who gets to vote.
[09:32] <ormiret> and when
[09:33] <nixternal> i agree ormiret, but that is creating a CC within the team, and my understanding is that isn't wanted
[09:33] <mhz> Moin voring states who voted, what voted, when voted, publicly available. And, all subscribers to the page can still get notified by email
[09:33] <jenda> I really think this is no big issue to continue to discuss so complicatedly how to choose the designer. When we chose project leaders, it was the obvious choice of people who were about to create the projects in question
[09:33] <nixternal> well the designer isn't obvious to me
[09:33] <jenda> In this case, that points towards the submitters of the designs
[09:33] <nixternal> i like 3 or 4 designers
[09:33] <jenda> That narrows down the options.
[09:33] <Klaidas> but one it the fovourite ;)
[09:33] <nixternal> im 3 on the dot actually
[09:34] <nixternal> if i had to go for a favorite i wouldl be biased...as the 3 designs have various implications for marketing
[09:34] <jenda> We aren't talking particular designs, now, we are talking designers
[09:34] <nixternal> how do we pick a designer?
[09:34] <mhz> oh
[09:34] <ormiret> throw the names in - if they are the saem 2 or 3, we could just ask them to coperate.
[09:34] <jenda> THe ideal designer needs to have the dedication, and the talent. He does'nt have to be a perfect artist, because he can ask others for help with art.
[09:35] <jenda> ormiret: +1
[09:35] <nixternal> im not worried about art, as we have a team just for that
[09:35] <mhz> any of those designers have made substainable contribution? has been around for at least a couple of months and is very aware of needs?
[09:35] <pygi> nixternal: indeed
[09:35] <nixternal> right now is web design/layout
[09:35] <nixternal> pygi: this is hard being in 2 meetings at once
[09:36] <nixternal> ;)
[09:36] <pygi> nixternal: I do same :P
[09:36] <jenda> OK... can I propose one of these designers?
[09:36] <nixternal> i know..you are in the other meeting i am in with docs ;)
[09:36] <jenda> :)
[09:36] <pygi> I do believe I have a designer who might help us
[09:36] <nixternal> im biased in my pick
[09:36] <pygi> I might even show some of his works :)
[09:36] <nixternal> let us see ;)
[09:36] <pygi> but you know better then me anyway :P
[09:37] <pygi> pykix.net, pygi.pykix.net, kix.pykix.net, blog.pykix.net, and some more (kinda I cant show that yet :P) great stuff
[09:37] <jenda> Kassetra is an ubuntu member. She has worked for the ubuntuforums for a long time, and has recently been released for what seemed a personal dispute to me.
[09:37] <pygi> logos for DesktopBSD package manager, numerous apps, etc.
[09:38] <pygi> nixternal: exactly :)
[09:38] <jenda> Which means she will have plenty of time to work on the design, and it might give her a chance not to get angry at the community and fall back in. Most importantly, she submitted a rather good design.
[09:38] <pygi> nobody knows anything :P
[09:38] <jenda> pygi: who are we talking about?
[09:39] <nixternal> mje
[09:39] <nixternal> me
[09:39] <jenda> ah
[09:39] <jenda> nixternal: are you up for the job?
[09:39] <pygi> jenda: nah, he got it wrong :P
[09:39] <jenda> ah
[09:39] <jenda> ...
[09:39] <nixternal> she was released from Ubuntuforums?
[09:39] <nixternal> me too
[09:39] <pygi> jenda: Josip Lisec, he isnt actually part of community, but I am sure he would like to help
[09:39] <pygi> and become part of the community if we allowed him that
[09:39] <_sara> uhhm I think that we need to show the people that submitted other desing that we aprecited it, maybe Kassendra with ALck
[09:40] <jenda> nixternal: yes, and several new mods, incl. me, were recruited
[09:40] <ormiret> I'm not sure we need to go looking for more designers - we already have 7 to pick from
[09:40] <jenda> I think so too
[09:41] <jenda> pygi: I'm sorry, but I must say we've had a lot of time to submit design proposals, and it has been well announced, I think. IMO, we should choose among what we have.
[09:41] <nixternal> what about Alecks?
[09:41] <nixternal> he has the hottest look by far
[09:41] <pygi> jenda: oki, no worries :)
[09:41] <mhz> jenda: +1
[09:41] <jenda> Ah, here's the original idea which i wanted to point out: http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/Design%20Mockups/Nestor%20Diaz/spread_ubuntu.png
[09:42] <_sara> Maybe a mix of Alcks and Kassetra
[09:42] <nixternal> the only thing i liked from Kassetra was the See It, Get It, Ship It stuff
[09:42] <jenda> I'm not saying i like it, though :-D I'm interested in what you guys think of the radically different idea.
[09:42] <nixternal> jenda: the original idea is HOT man!!!
[09:42] <nixternal> how come that is the first time i have seen it?
[09:42] <jenda> nixternal: I think we could ask kassetra and alecks to cooperate.
[09:42] <jenda> nixternal: no idea :)
[09:42] <jenda> Do you bazaar?
[09:42] <jenda> :)
[09:42] <nixternal> ya
[09:43] <nixternal> lol..i see it now
[09:43] <nixternal> duh
[09:43] <nixternal> jenda: im sorry, with some tweaking the original is the way to go
[09:43] <jenda> I think so too.
[09:43] <nixternal> ya, i like how it incorporates EVERYTING UBUNTU
[09:43] <jenda> So, that adds a third candidate?
[09:43] <_sara> I actually don't like the originall
[09:43] <nixternal> you have the circle of friends, the logo with every branch in it
[09:44] <jenda> hehe :)
[09:44] <nixternal> i think that is the perfect front page to a Spread Ubuntu portal
[09:44] <jenda> yes - disagreement, that means discussion :)
[09:44] <ormiret> hmm, I don't like the combination logo
[09:44] <nixternal> i do however, it needs to be tweaked
[09:45] <_sara> nixeranl, I see what you mean, but the page is not as attractive
[09:45] <jenda> _sara: do you not like the idea or the way it's made?
[09:45] <nixternal> the center is to big, and the portions are to skinny
[09:45] <nixternal> imbrandon created one a few months back that was killer
[09:45] <jenda> that can always be adjusted, ya know :)
[09:45] <jenda> nixternal: what??? :)
[09:45] <_sara> I like the idea, not the execution, The way it was made, some new proposal are more attractive
[09:45] <nixternal> exactly 
[09:46] <jenda> _sara: And would you agree that having Spreadubuntu in this original design, if made with pro-quality, would be good?
[09:46] <nixternal> the big spread ubuntu bubble up top needs to be tweaked, and reduce the amount of "White" 
[09:46] <_sara> Jenda, I agree
[09:46] <jenda> nixternal: I think it needs severe tweaking, but I _really_ love the new look.
[09:47] <bimberi> of the designs i prefer that "speech bubble" one too
[09:47] <nixternal> with tweaking of course...im hands down in favor of the original design with massive tweaking
[09:47] <ormiret> is there any objections to the speech bubble idea?
[09:47] <jenda> ormiret: Would you like the rest of the design if there was no combinated logo?
[09:47] <bimberi> not sure about the mixed logo though - that would have to be cleared by canonical
[09:47] <jenda> bimberi: check.
[09:47] <ormiret> jenda: yes
[09:47] <jenda> OK... I think we have clear consensus here :)
[09:47] <_sara> but who will do it?
[09:48] <jenda> Any objections to the general concept of the speech bubble circle of friends?
[09:48] <jenda> _sara: point no. 2 :)
[09:48] <nixternal> no objections that is
[09:48] <bimberi> no objection here
[09:48] <jenda> I believe we should approach nestor and ask him to refine the idea.
[09:48] <_sara> no objection
[09:49] <jenda> We might also email the mailing list and ask anyone else to contribute to the final form of the idea.
[09:49] <nixternal> i would like to see the combo logo though, just cleaner and implemented better...i would like to see no less then say 5 versions of it?
[09:49] <jenda> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/Design%20Mockups/Nestor%20Diaz/
[09:49] <jenda> Mind you, there is an SVG available.
[09:49] <ormiret> we are going to need someone very good at web design to pull off the speech bubbles well...
[09:50] <nixternal> glass the bubbles with that human tint..i love that look
[09:50] <_sara> excatly, I really don't want the use of flash
[09:50] <nixternal> brown is becoming a color i really like..and i use kubuntu ;)
[09:51] <nixternal> oh..ya, do not use flash
[09:51] <bimberi> yes, keep it Free
[09:51] <nixternal> otherwise new users who haven't figured out flash & ubuntu would hate us
[09:51] <nixternal> exactly bimberi
[09:52] <jenda> No flash, that is imperative, otherwise i quit :)
[09:52] <jenda> So - what do you people think about:
[09:52] <jenda> 1) Asking Nestor Diaz to further his idea
[09:52] <jenda> 2) Asking the other designers to try and develop their own ideas on that idea
[09:52] <jenda> 3) Making a general notice for outsiders to do the same
[09:52] <jenda> 4) Repeating this meeting on August 13, same time and finally deciding which design goes?
[09:52] <bimberi> ooh, now that's tempting ;P
[09:52] <jenda> Please yay or nay this plan...
[09:52] <_sara> yay
[09:53] <nixternal> jenda: 5) All the above
[09:53] <nixternal> ;)
[09:53] <ormiret> I think we need to add we are looking for actual web design now - not more raster mockups
[09:53] <jenda> ormiret: yes
[09:53] <ormiret> yay
[09:53] <bimberi> jenda +1
[09:53] <jenda> mhz: your vote can count too :)
[09:54] <_sara> +1
[09:54] <jenda> Must have hurt his feelings, oh well :)
[09:54] <bimberi> and +1 for actual web design too
[09:54] <jenda> OK, if there are any objections later, please email me :)
[09:54] <nixternal> lol
[09:55] <ormiret> adn without wiki polls :)
[09:55] <nixternal> no doubt
[09:55] <jenda> BTW, I'll ask kassetra to create one based on this with her icons in it :-D
[09:55] <nixternal> only because jenda was holding back on that design ;)
[09:55] <jenda> nixternal: shush!
[09:55] <nixternal> hehe
[09:56] <ormiret> have we got anything else to disciss?
[09:56] <ormiret> (it's well past my bedtime)
[09:56] <nixternal> hehe
[09:56] <nixternal> i think the spread ubuntu design was a biggy
[09:56] <nixternal> OH
[09:57] <nixternal> YA, THE WIKI
[09:57] <nixternal> it seems nobody is interested in helping out with Wiki topics and content
[09:57] <nixternal> i have emailed the list, and have even had the spec update to the list for people to respond...response has been horrible
[09:58] <ormiret> we really need a first draft to get feedback on
[09:59] <jenda> hmm
[09:59] <jenda> sorry, nix :)
[09:59] <ormiret> then work from that to get soemthing everyone is happy with
[09:59] <jenda> haha :)
[09:59] <jenda> of course
[10:00] <jenda> nixternal: I think /Marketing/Team would be a great place to include the GetInvolved page
[10:00] <nixternal> there is a first draft and a second draft
[10:00] <nixternal> me too jenda, and i will work on that
[10:00] <bimberi> yes, that's essentially what nixternal has done
[10:00] <nixternal> actually..i just might start the draft on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Marketing
[10:00] <nixternal> and work it in from there
[10:00] <jenda> and /Marketing/{SU;UM;MR}/ are great for the indiv. projects.
[10:00] <ormiret> sorry, last time I looked all the text was just placeholders
[10:01] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarektingTeam/WikiMockUp     &     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarektingTeam/WikiMockUp
[10:01] <nixternal> v2 is the one we will be using, with some tweaking
[10:01] <jenda> typos there :)
[10:01] <jenda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/WikiMockupV2
[10:01] <jenda> that's what i like more
[10:02] <nixternal> it is just place holders ormiret, as i have aske dthe list to fill "in between the lines"...this is a community task, not a nixternal task..im just implementing everyones ideas into the page
[10:02] <nixternal> heh, i didn't get the V2 in up there
[10:02] <nixternal> sorry
[10:02] <jenda> nixternal: I'll do my best to help fill in the gaps once i get back.
[10:03] <ormiret> yeah, what I meant was put some actual text in there - not worrying too much about ti being perfect - and then people will start telling you what is wrong with it.
[10:03] <nixternal> oh, i know you will jenda, you im not worried about...we have a lot of people that want things to get done on the team, and when i ask for assistance it doesn't happen..so it kind of annoyed me a little
[10:04] <nixternal> see ormiret, i can do that with no problem, but that isn't involving the community..i don't want people to go, that was done by nixternal, i want them to say, check out what the Marketing Team did...just my concern i guess
[10:05] <ormiret> I can help with coming up with some text
[10:05] <ormiret> I actually meant to do this when you sent mail about it but I forgot...
[10:06] <nixternal> lol
[10:06] <jenda> I understand what you mean. I felt similarly when the deadline of July 12 and no designs were made.
[10:06] <jenda> :)
[10:07] <ormiret> I think the community involvment will take care of itself once there is soemthing to edit, but a lot of people are reluctant to create stuff from scratch
[10:07] <nixternal> i have noticed, there sure are a lot of people on the launchpad page, and some complained about getting knocked off a while back..and i would love to get them involved, so their involvment is a little more then a link on their launchpad stating they are a member
[10:07] <bimberi> sometimes it's just better do mock something up totally and let people revise, rather than asking for "green field" contributions
[10:08] <nixternal> heh
[10:08] <jenda> :)
[10:08] <bimberi> it would be interesting to know why they're not involved
[10:09] <nixternal> bimberi: +1
[10:09] <jenda> bimberi: laziness, business
[10:09] <bimberi> yes, possibly
[10:09] <nixternal> there are people that want to help, but just don't know how to, i would love to target them on this project as well
[10:09] <ormiret> I think ther are a lot of people who join teams they are interested in, even if they don't have the time / inclination to actually contribute much
[10:09] <nixternal> i might goto the forums with that idea actually
[10:09] <bimberi> or not in agreement with direction and not bothered to speak up
[10:11] <nixternal> i know i shouldn't take it to heart but i do..i try to work hard had giving back to Ubuntu, because of everything Ubuntu has done and what it stands for...so me being apart of a team means a lot..i try to spread my time among all times equally..i can't always, but i try to
[10:11] <ompaul> bimberi, you are correct, and think some would not be aware of it
[10:11] <nixternal> so with that being said, it angers me at times when people join a team and do nothing, say nothing, and contribute nothing..and then complain or actually voice for once their opinion when you knock them off a list
[10:12] <bimberi> perhaps we should make that a regular thing ;p
[10:12] <nixternal> that just shows me that their involvement is just the link on their launchpad page making them seem larger..i don't know, and i hope i just didn't go against CoC...but i did go OT big time
[10:12] <jenda> nixternal: I've advertised the MT on the forums before
[10:13] <jenda> very successfully. OTOH, if we tried to do that again, we might be considered spammers :)
[10:13] <nixternal> well, im going to advertise it to Ubuntu Chicago, as i have some guys that are interested in helping out, and are fairly new to the community
[10:13] <jenda> nixternal: great :)
[10:13] <ormiret> I'm not that worried about people being in the team that aren't doing much - they have shown an interest and they might do something to help in the future, kicking them out cause they haven't sone anything does annoy me though.
[10:14] <jenda> BTW, same thinking as you are describing now led to my proposal (and execution) of the LP memberlist pruning, which ormiret so opposed to :)
[10:14] <nixternal> well, i agree with you ormiret on that wholeheartedly, as im sure some are very busy in their personal life
[10:14] <_sara> Well, but if they don't do anythin for a whole year maybe they should not be part of the eam
[10:14] <nixternal> however, if possible, let us know that you are busy right now, and don't expect much..just odn't join a list and be idle..it isn't irc ;)
[10:14] <ompaul> _sara, how do you know they don't take your magazine and publish 100 copies and give it to key influencers?
[10:15] <ormiret> what harm do they do being on this list and not doing anything?
[10:15] <nixternal> there is no harm at all
[10:15] <nixternal> lol
[10:15] <_sara> ompaul, good point
[10:15] <ompaul> jenda, how do you know they don't take your su and actually give away 300 disks - with no reference to the SU team but point people that way
[10:16] <bimberi> their contributions may not be visible - advocacy fits into marketing for example
[10:16] <nixternal> oh heck no jenda, but i think it needs to be said "hey, we have people here that want to work and are working, and there are a few of you on a list that we havn't heard from, please give us some input as to what.....fill in the rest"
[10:16] <ompaul> just a question, it is more or less retorical
[10:16] <jenda> BTW, all memberships last one year, so if they don't say they still want to be involved, they'll have to ping an admin again
[10:16] <ompaul> jenda, well lets see they should not have to ping the admin should ping them
[10:16] <jenda> ompaul: Am I saying anything? :)
[10:16] <nixternal> we have a team of 47 according to launchpad..and i see at most 10 active
[10:17] <ompaul> there is a good reason for that
[10:17] <jenda> ompaul: LP will ping them.
[10:17] <imbrandon> jenda: fyi ubuntu/kubuntu memberships are 2 years but yea
[10:17] <bimberi> nixternal: that might be a pretty good ratio ;)
[10:17] <ompaul>  ubuntu memberships is 2 years
[10:18] <jenda> BTW - DIY Marketing itself is not exactly Marketing Team activity, IMO - That would be, eg. documenting local marketing activity to help DIY activity globally
[10:18] <_sara> I have to add that some people are afraid to use a mailing list (I don't know why), and have contacted me personally
[10:18] <jenda> imbrandon: I know, but MT are one year long.
[10:18] <jenda> _sara: it's best to point them there, if you can :)
[10:18] <ompaul> https://launchpad.net/people/?name=marketing&searchfor=all
[10:18] <bimberi> jenda: keeping DIY Marketing materials up to date is though
[10:18] <jenda> bimberi: yes
[10:19] <nixternal> mhz: that is still contributing!!!
[10:19] <ompaul> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-marketing
[10:19] <_sara> Jenda, they are actually on the mailing list, they just don't like to post (I don't know why)
[10:19] <jenda> mhz: Mauricio Hernandez, innit? I don't see you on the list yet... you might want to do something about that :)
[10:19] <ormiret> at least 80% of contribution in any group comes from <20% of users, you can't change that by kicking out the 80%
[10:19] <jenda> strange..
[10:19] <mhz> nixternal: yeah, but I get info about what each team is doing and then see how this can be applied to Edubuntu
[10:20] <bimberi> ha, 80-20 applies in so may places
[10:20] <jenda> ormiret: please, nobody plans to do that.
[10:20] <jenda> yes, the ratio might even be worse.
[10:20] <nixternal> i admit, i need to be working more with Edubuntu as well, as their philosophy is close to the heart and helping the youngsters
[10:20] <ormiret> tends to be worse on internet projects sonce joining is so easy
[10:20] <ompaul> nixternal, I can count at least 17 people I know to be active
[10:20] <jenda> I'm among the top 40000 contributors to wikipedia, out of a lot over a million, with only 40 edits or so....
[10:21] <nixternal> i just shot from the hip on that number ompaul, but thanks for clarifying it for me :)  i am horrible with numbers, so never trust me with them ;)
[10:21] <ompaul> nixternal, I am not checking very hard .. so it is hard to work it 
[10:21] <jenda> OK
[10:22] <jenda> Is there anything else productive that we need to discuss?
[10:22] <nixternal> lol
[10:22] <mhz> has spreadubuntu considered "booths" desing?
[10:24] <nixternal> oh...everyone...Ubuntu Chicago, a LoCo team is having it's first meeting next thursday...we will be "Spreading Ubuntu"...i have over 200 CDs and stickers for the event, with more coming...So the Chicago team is working hard as well..great group of guys over there
[10:24] <mhz> yay! \o/ \o/ \o/ !!
[10:25] <ormiret> who's doing minutes?
[10:25] <mhz> *\o/*
[10:25] <nixternal> hehe
[10:25] <bimberi> mhz: lol
[10:25] <nixternal> muhahah
[10:25] <mhz> bimberi: learning is great
[10:25] <bimberi> nixternal: get ....
[10:25] <nixternal> hahahah
[10:26] <nixternal> the minutes for this one will be simple...the design, and wiki...i htink hte the member list discussion could be left out
[10:26] <bimberi> that said, it would seem the decision on the preferred design and jenda's plan really constitute the minutes
[10:26] <jenda> bimberi: could you? :)
[10:26] <jenda> ah...
[10:26] <bimberi> ah, yes and the wiki
[10:26] <nixternal> wiki:  Help out!!
[10:27] <nixternal> that is it really on that ;)
[10:27] <bimberi> yes    all    right
[10:27] <jenda> mhz: Things of the sort will be part of the DIY section, but we will first have to create the structure to carry such content - the content will then be created by the community (and approved by SU admins)
[10:27] <jenda> nixternal: +1, great wording on that one.
[10:28] <nixternal> hehe
[10:28] <nixternal> http://www.buntudot.org/people/~nixternal/docs/KubuntuFlyer.odt      <-- Kubuntu flyer created from the KDE aKademy blurb myself and other doc team members worked on the other night
[10:29] <mhz> jenda: okis, thx
[11:32] <HedgeMage> Hey folks, everyone ready to start?
[11:33] <HedgeMage> pygi, lloydinho, mhz... anyone out there?
[11:33] <lloydinho_> oh, I'm not really here..
[11:34] <HedgeMage> hehe
[11:35] <HedgeMage> hi jenda :)
[11:35] <HedgeMage> I'll start whenever there are signs of life, folks.
[11:36] <mhz> re
[11:37] <HedgeMage> Yay, life!
[11:38] <HedgeMage> First of all, I'd like to encourage anyone who's interested to check out http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook as I'll probably be referring to it or its sub-pages at some point.
[11:38] <HedgeMage> mmm chocolate!
[11:39] <HedgeMage> Would someone please be kind enough to offer to take minutes and post them to the edubuntu mailing list since RobinShepard isn't here today?
[11:41] <HedgeMage> Thanks, hon
[11:42] <mhz> I udestand minutes is taking notes and sum it up in a doc?
[11:42] <HedgeMage> yep
[11:42] <mhz> then okis, I can do it today
[11:42] <HedgeMage> then post to edubuntu-devel and/or edubuntu-user
[11:42] <mhz> np
[11:42] <HedgeMage> great.
[11:43] <HedgeMage> Then, for the quick update for those who are new: "Edubuntu Cookbook" was voted to change to "Edubuntu Handbook" same content, less confusing name.
[11:44] <mhz> great! Docbook is not a prerequisiste
[11:46] <HedgeMage> Yep :)  We set up an "unofficial" (official to handbook but not sponsored by canonical) SVN repo for people who don't have ubuntu-doc SVN commit access and/or people who want to work in plain text or other non-docbook stuff and have others do the converting for them
[11:47] <HedgeMage> that's at http://svn.binaryredneck.net/handbook and I'll give commit access to pretty much anyone who asks, since anything we commit to ubuntu-doc repo will get looked over first
[11:47] <HedgeMage> if you need access, just pm me and I'll get to it after the meeting
[11:47] <mhz> great! now I get why pygi was happy about trac
[11:47] <HedgeMage> :)
[11:48] <mhz> excellent, I will
[11:48] <HedgeMage> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook/EdgyTasks is a sign-up sheet for people who want to work on a chapter (feel free to just update relevant content from the old cookbook if applicable)
[11:49] <HedgeMage> We ask that no one be signed up for more than 3 unfinished chapters at a given time (feel free to take another if you've finished one of course)
[11:49] <mhz> I have a couple of observations
[11:50] <mhz> shall I ?
[11:50] <HedgeMage> go for it!
[11:50] <mhz> my main motivation to use Edubuntu is that I am close to many schools with PII and PIII
[11:50] <pygi> mhz: why was I so happy? care to say? :)
[11:51] <mhz> and a server would not be over PIV 1.2 GHz and 512 MB of ram
[11:51] <mhz> so, EdubuntuHndbook seems to be for 'normal' Edubuntu labs
[11:51] <mhz> using GNOME and default apps.
[11:51] <mhz> In my case, I am forced to not use GNOME
[11:52] <mhz> and choose XFCE or less
[11:52] <HedgeMage> mhz: We'd love it if you'd like to do a chapter on other WMs that are available!
[11:52] <mhz> (IceWM, Wmaker, Fluxbox, etC)
[11:52] <HedgeMage> fvwm is extremely light, too, but takes lots of getting used to
[11:52] <mhz> oh, so are you sure, scope is not only 'default' edubuntu?
[11:52] <Burgwork> HedgeMage, devils advocate question: Why is that not in doc team svn
[11:52] <Burgwork> ?
[11:53] <HedgeMage> Burgwork: we just use the unofficial repo as an intermediary stem, it is going in the docteam svn repo
[11:53] <mhz> pygi: I think because handbook is svn and so Trac is Moin + SVN :)
[11:53] <HedgeMage> Burgwork: some people are working in plaintext or .odt and letting others convert, etc.
[11:53] <Burgwork> taht is not an issue
[11:54] <HedgeMage> Burgwork: which isn't an issue? I'm confused.
[11:54] <Burgwork> taht people are using odd ball formats
[11:54] <pygi> Burgwork: it was agreed me and hedge must provide patches first :)
[11:55] <mhz> HedgeMage: then, in my case, it would mean I should 'add' subchapters in hardware reqs, printing, and backing up 
[11:55] <Burgwork> if you dump a good deal of work on us right away, we will give you commit access
[11:55] <Burgwork> taht is what happened with the xubuntu guy
[11:56] <HedgeMage> Burgwork: Can we talk about that after the meeting? We've now gone through this six times with five different docteam people, all telling us slightly different versions of what we should be doing.
[11:56] <HedgeMage> Burgwork: it kind of ate our last couple of meetings.
[11:56] <Burgwork> sure, no worries
[11:56] <HedgeMage> Thanks
[11:57] <mhz> HedgeMage: then , ok to add subchapters?
[11:57] <HedgeMage> mhz: hardware reqs, choosing and installing a light WM, and configuring a WM seem applicable
[11:57] <HedgeMage> mhz: I'm not sure printing and backing up would change appreciably
[11:58] <mhz> hmm, basically, my setups are through webbrowser
[11:58] <mhz> and fro backing up
[11:58] <mhz> no idea what the defualt app is
[11:58] <HedgeMage> mhz: how about a "part" entitled "Working with light Window Managers" and then whatever chapters you think it need under that?
[11:58] <HedgeMage> make the light wm one part IV and make the current part IV part V
[11:59] <mhz> wiser, lot wiser
[11:59] <HedgeMage> if that makes sense.
[11:59] <HedgeMage> Anyone have thoughts?
[12:00] <mhz> HedgeMage: is this book to be printed?
[12:00] <mhz> or mostly online?
[12:00] <pygi> mhz: Lulu
[12:00] <mhz> ok
[12:00] <mhz> pygi: and how about trasnlations?
[12:01] <HedgeMage> mhz: please add the needed part/chapters to EdgyOutline and EdgyTasks, and don't forget to add yourself to the contributors list in the "unofficial" svn repo
[12:01] <pygi> mhz: there will also be printed translations on lulu
[12:01] <mhz> Some people (spanish speakers) have asked me if it is ok to start translating handbook chapters. I have said "let's wait till is done"
[12:02] <pygi> mhz: they can translate edubuntu cookbook (dapper) if they want
[12:02] <HedgeMage> We also need to get done on time for once to give translators time to do their magic
[12:02] <HedgeMage> Can we use this meeting time to hack out some kind of timeline or schedule?
[12:03] <mhz> yeah
[12:05] <mhz> HedgeMage: what kind of timeline you mean?
[12:05] <mhz> per chapter priorities?
[12:06] <HedgeMage> mhz: a little of that and some general "first draft" "final draft" "proofreading" deadlines
[12:06] <HedgeMage> I work best under a deadline :)
[12:06] <mhz> me too!
[12:06] <HedgeMage> perhaps one of the mainline doc people can weigh in here with reasonable suggestions?
[12:09] <mhz> HedgeMage: well, 
[12:09] <mhz> Should this be ready before October
[12:09] <mhz> or November?