[03:49] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: Hello
[03:52] <Hobbsee> hi DaSkreech, everyone else :)
[05:03] <Hobbsee> hi imbrandon_
[05:03] <Hobbsee> eek, now i think my wifi's really screwed.
[05:03] <imbrandon_> heya Hobbsee ;)
[05:06] <Hobbsee> root@sarah:~/Desktop# ndiswrapper -l
[05:06] <Hobbsee> bash: ndiswrapper: command not found
[05:06] <Hobbsee> sigh.
[05:06] <DaSkreech> Hobbsee: Did a kernel upgrade?
[05:06] <imbrandon_> sudo apt-get install ndiswrapper-utils ;)
[05:06] <Hobbsee> DaSkreech: nope, but i went back to the old version of ndiswrapper, as the newer one wasnt workign with knm
[05:07] <imbrandon_> woot almost done portage syncing
[05:08] <Hobbsee> root@sarah:~/Desktop# modprobe ndiswrapper
[05:08] <Hobbsee> FATAL: Module ndiswrapper not found.
[05:08] <Hobbsee> it's screwed.
[05:08] <imbrandon_> ouch
[05:08] <Hobbsee> which happened before
[05:08] <Hobbsee> bye all
[08:54] <aliasfred> just in case it is not already known, wiki.kubuntu.org seems down, replying 'connnection refused'
[09:36] <crimsun> eh? Seems up to me.
[12:27] <Tonio_> hey
[12:28] <Tonio_> is someone using edgy here ?
[12:28] <Tonio_> I'm trying to get katapult running without any success
[01:21] <Hobbsee> hi all
[01:27] <toma> hi Hobbsee, you're up late
[01:27] <Hobbsee> @time sydney
[01:27] <Ubugtu> Current time in Australia/Sydney: July 23 2006, 21:27:49
[01:27] <Hobbsee> toma: i'm likely to be up for another 5 hours or so :P
[01:29] <toma> hmm, i thought you just got up 
[01:29] <toma> nm, my head is elsewhere
[01:29] <Hobbsee> :P
[01:39] <Tonio_> hey
[01:39] <Hobbsee> hi Tonio_!
[01:39] <Tonio_> hi Hobbsee, toma
[01:39] <toma> hey !
[01:39] <Tonio_> I'm getting nuts in trying to understand why katapult fails on edgy
[01:39] <Tonio_> look like an xorg issue
[01:39] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: it does?  works here
[01:40] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: with edgy ?
[01:40] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yep
[01:40] <Tonio_> hum, local problem so....
[01:40] <Hobbsee> Sysinfo for 'sarah': Linux 2.6.17-5-686 running KDE 3.5.3, CPU: Mobile Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz at 2394 MHz (4793 bogomips), HD: 19/36GB, RAM: 567/995MB, 104 proc's, 21.38min up
[01:40] <Hobbsee> definetly edgy.
[01:40] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: are you up to date ? how do you find the latest changes I've done to kopete and konqueror ?
[01:40] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: wha'td you do to kopete?
[01:40] <Hobbsee> i havent updated this afternoon, no
[01:41] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: open a discussion and put the cursor on the tab icon :)
[01:41] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: a discussion?
[01:41] <Tonio_> it displays a close button
[01:41] <Tonio_> and same for konqueror
[01:41] <Hobbsee> oh yeah, i got k-d-s this morning, that's right
[01:41] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: not only kds, I had to patch kopete sources to get that working
[01:41] <Tonio_> and kdelibs with the help of toma too
[01:42] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: um, okay, which sources did you patch?  did you patch mine on revu, the current edgy, or what?
[01:42] <Tonio_> I patched the current edgy
[01:42] <Tonio_> but the sources that are in universe, not kdenetwork
[01:43] <Tonio_> Accepted:
[01:43] <Tonio_> OK: kopete_3.5.3+kopete0.12.0-0ubuntu4.dsc
[01:43] <Tonio_>   -> Component: universe Section: kde
[01:44] <Hobbsee> okay, so i was told it was going into main.
[01:44] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: there's a UVF exception in for 0.12.1 - but i dont think mdz has replied to it yet
[01:45] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes we need to wait at the moment
[01:46] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: how do you find the changes ?
[01:46] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: well, i cant figure out hwo to open a discussion, so....
[01:46] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: simply because I know your package is gonna replace it :)
[01:46] <Tonio_> oups okay
[01:46] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: er, and you're not wanting your patch in my new package?
[01:46] <Hobbsee> oh, and i'm using 0.12.1, too...
[01:46] <Tonio_> I didn't patch because I wanted it in edgy for people to test
[01:47] <Tonio_> then we'll port the patch if people like it
[01:47] <Tonio_> it is very easy to do
[01:47] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: isnt that the idea of edgy?  it's development, ie testing?
[01:47] <Tonio_> the patch is one line only
[01:47] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes, so what is the issue ?
[01:47] <Tonio_> is 0.12.1 in edgy already ?
[01:47] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: no, it's not.
[01:48] <Tonio_> that's why I didn't do it :)
[01:48] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: you can port the patch if you want
[01:48] <Tonio_> pretty easy to do
[01:48] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: ho and talking about edgy, do you have issues with fonts too ?
[01:48] <Tonio_> my fonts are quite crappy
[01:48] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: actually, what i'd like to do is to poke mdz to approve the UVF exception, so we dont have 3 branches of the same app.
[01:49] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: true
[01:49] <Tonio_> we'll add the patch after this
[01:49] <Tonio_> you're right on that point
[01:49] <Hobbsee> fonts are different, but i've grown to like it
[01:49] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: to me that's not different, that dirty
[01:49] <Tonio_> they don't feet with the screen
[01:49] <Hobbsee> also, that's supposed to be in main, i'm told. however, p.u.c says it's in uni, you say it's in uni, katie says it's in uni, so it really must be in universe.
[01:50] <Hobbsee> i think it's katie - whatever generates the accepted/rejected mails
[01:50] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: of course, there's an easy way to check - i try uploading it :P
[01:50] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: in fact we have 2 versions of kopete in edgy
[01:50] <Tonio_> the one provided by kdenetwork
[01:50] <Tonio_> and your package
[01:51] <Tonio_> if we want your in main, we should patch kdenetwork to remove the kopete package from it
[01:51] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yep, true
[01:51] <Tonio_> also there is an issue with your package....
[01:51] <Tonio_> universe dep
[01:51] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yeah, Riddell was going to do that, but kde 3.5.4 will be out soon, so he was going to patch it there.
[01:51] <Hobbsee> hi rraphink 
[01:51] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ah, which dep was that?
[01:52] <Tonio_> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, libjasper-runtime
[01:52] <Tonio_> this one is universe
[01:53] <Tonio_> that will cause an issue for main inclusion
[01:55] <rraphink> hi Hobbsee
[01:57] <Hobbsee> hey... Tonio_....this thing's really in universe, right?
[01:57] <Hobbsee> (so Riddell was wrong in saying it was in main, presumably)
[01:57] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: tell me why we're waiting on a UVF?
[01:57] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes
[01:57] <Hobbsee> exception?
[01:57] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: because of main inclusion report
[01:57] <Tonio_> :)
[01:58] <Hobbsee> this thing's probably going to go to main later in the release?
[01:58] <Tonio_> but yes could make sense to upload latest to universe and main inclusio after this
[01:58] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: it's not in main yet - presumably we can keep upgrading it while it's in universe/
[01:58] <Tonio_> would make it easier
[01:58] <Hobbsee> much easier.
[01:58] <Tonio_> I agree
[01:58] <Hobbsee> okay, i'll try it ;0
[01:58] <Hobbsee> :)
[01:59] <Tonio_> make: *** /lib/modules/2.6.17-5-386/build: Aucun fichier ou rpertoire de ce type. Arrt.
[01:59] <Tonio_> why don't we have a build symlink ?
[01:59] <Tonio_> pf
[02:01] <Tonio_> my stupidity........
[02:03] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: why are you on -386 anyway?
[02:03] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ah yeah, guess we'd need to get that bumped to main too maybe, depending on it's deps.
[02:06] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: where was your patch for kopete?
[02:06] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: seems a bit silly to upload kopete twice
[02:07] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: want the  patch via dcc ?
[02:07] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: probably email.  hobbsee@ubuntu.com
[02:07] <Hobbsee> patch is good, yep :)
[02:08] <Tonio_> the email is gone
[02:08] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: you might need the changelog now no ?
[02:09] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: i dont understand
[02:09] <Tonio_> what ?
[02:09] <Hobbsee> i might need to change the changelog?  yeah
[02:09] <Tonio_> well if you upload your new package, since my one is already in universe, you need to take the changelog informations
[02:09] <Tonio_> makes sense no ?
[02:11] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: i /msg the changelog entry to you
[02:12] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: yeah, the idea does, i just didnt understand what you actually said :P
[02:25] <Hobbsee> Riddell: ping?
[02:34] <Hobbsee> fabo: you around?
[02:34] <Hobbsee> hi birthdaylogger!
[02:34] <birthdaylogger> ahoy Hobbsee
[02:51] <Tonio_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL6E7R4IbCM
[02:52] <Tonio_> LOL ;)
[03:48] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: ping?
[03:50] <Hobbsee> [23:47]  <Thucydides> KDE 3.5.4 is about to be tagged. Will kopete 0.12.1 be merged? This was discussed on kde-devel and approved, but I don't see a merge.
[03:50] <Hobbsee> [23:47]  <mattr> no, it will not be merged
[03:50] <Tonio_> Hobbsee: okay kool
[03:51] <Hobbsee> Tonio_: which is what i suspected.  anyway, that'll help us in our discussions.
[03:55] <Tonio_> yes
[04:06] <bddebian> Hello
[04:07] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: you already talked to someone concering a google earth license?
[04:10] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: nope
[04:10] <Tonio_> there is no change we get one ;)
[04:10] <Tonio_> no chance
[04:10] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: oh, why so?
[04:11] <birthdaylogger> google is not interested in distributing their software? Oo
[04:11] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: because google doesn't do anything to promote free software
[04:11] <Tonio_> and has the same licencing vision than apple or microsof
[04:11] <birthdaylogger> though they support FOSS don't they?
[04:11] <Tonio_> with a bit of hypocrite way to do that microsoft doesn't have
[04:11] <birthdaylogger> and they finance trolltech :D
[04:12] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: in theory....
[04:12] <birthdaylogger> well, most of their APIs are open
[04:12] <Tonio_> can you give me an good example of free code they have written ?
[04:12] <Tonio_> they are for standards yes
[04:12] <birthdaylogger> well
[04:12] <Tonio_> they like standards and open technology
[04:12] <birthdaylogger> do they have to open their code?
[04:12] <Tonio_> but certainly not free software
[04:12] <birthdaylogger> they featured wine
[04:13] <birthdaylogger> and they do code contributions to mozilla
[04:13] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: because it was better than providing a real linux application probably
[04:13] <Tonio_> ?
[04:13] <Tonio_> wine is evil
[04:13] <birthdaylogger> well, it is FOSS
[04:13] <birthdaylogger> you can't say google doesn't support FOSS
[04:13] <birthdaylogger> as it is not true
[04:13] <Tonio_> yes, but it is the best reason for companies not to develop on linux
[04:13] <Tonio_> well that's a too big debate ;)
[04:14] <birthdaylogger> well, google is aiming to make money
[04:14] <Tonio_> the point is honnestly, I don't think, not even a second, that google will allow us to provide a package
[04:14] <birthdaylogger> we can ask
[04:14] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: trolltech too, and intel too :)
[04:14] <birthdaylogger> and as google aims to make money it's not very unlikely
[04:14] <Tonio_> but intel favors foss more than google in my view
[04:15] <birthdaylogger> opera allowed to package as well?!
[04:15] <Tonio_> google is like apple
[04:15] <birthdaylogger> apple is support khtml
[04:15] <birthdaylogger> *ing
[04:15] <Tonio_> they talk about free software, they use it as much as they need it, and they provide proprietary stuff to make money
[04:15] <Tonio_> I can't accept that
[04:15] <Tonio_> microsoft way to do is better
[04:16] <Tonio_> they don't want to make free software, so they don't use free softtware, and don't talk about it
[04:16] <Tonio_> ;)
[04:16] <Tonio_> apple supports khtml because kde people asked for the code
[04:16] <Tonio_> at the very begening, they simply got a 20 mbits patch absolutly unreadable
[04:17] <Tonio_> what did apple do with osx ?
[04:17] <Tonio_> take the best of free software under lgpl or bsd licence
[04:17] <Tonio_> make proprietary os with their own proprietary stuff in their,
[04:17] <Tonio_> had a bunch of drm inside
[04:17] <Tonio_> and sold it......
[04:18] <Tonio_> this company is honnestly 10 times worst than microsoft regarding to their hypocrits acts...
[04:18] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: MS is using FOSS as well
[04:19] <birthdaylogger> anyway, you can't wait for such big comapnies to open their code
[04:19] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: I've worked for MS
[04:19] <Tonio_> they generally favor unix to linux because it is not free software
[04:20] <Tonio_> and yes, MS is hypocrit too, but honnestly not as much as apple or google
[04:20] <Tonio_> because they never pretend to be "fan of FOSS" and friends of "the FOSS world"
[04:20] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: HP opens its code, intel does so
[04:20] <Tonio_> aren't they big companies ?
[04:21] <birthdaylogger> sure they are
[04:21] <birthdaylogger> but they are 2 against 100
[04:21] <Tonio_> seriously, is picasa port to linux acceptable ?
[04:21] <Tonio_> even googleearth
[04:21] <Tonio_> they didn't do any effort to respect linux HUIs
[04:21] <birthdaylogger> what's the problem with the google earth port?
[04:22] <birthdaylogger> they want it to be similar to the windows version
[04:22] <Tonio_> it doesn't respect the linux file system structure
[04:22] <birthdaylogger> so they can't break their own HUI used for their windows apps
[04:22] <birthdaylogger> ?
[04:22] <birthdaylogger> why not?
[04:22] <Tonio_> is requires to be launched as root
[04:22] <Tonio_> which makes it a problem for the security
[04:22] <birthdaylogger> it doesn't do
[04:23] <Tonio_> honnestly, the only reason they did a port and not a wine thing is because is was developed in QT on windows
[04:23] <birthdaylogger> it saves every config etc. to ~./googleearth
[04:23] <Tonio_> that's the only reason
[04:23] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: hum, I'd like to see it, since I tested it a month ago and it couldn't be launched as simple user
[04:23] <birthdaylogger> of course this is the reason, but as I said ... they want to make money, so there needs to be a market for their software
[04:24] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: I don't criticize the fact they don't do open source code
[04:24] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: there was no new version since first beta release
[04:24] <Tonio_> I criticize the fact they are trying to play on both side in an hypocrit way
[04:24] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: then I'd like to see it :)
[04:24] <Tonio_> did you install using their .bin file ?
[04:25] <Tonio_> once that's installed, you cannot launched it as simple user without playing manually with chmod rights
[04:25] <birthdaylogger> yeah
[04:25] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: you installed in system resource?
[04:25] <Tonio_> I installed in /opt
[04:25] <birthdaylogger> might be a bug in the loki installer
[04:25] <birthdaylogger> but actually nothing more than a bug
[04:26] <birthdaylogger> anyway, AFK
[04:26] <birthdaylogger> gotta visist some people ;-)
[04:26] <Tonio_> honnestly, couldn't they provide at least an rpm version ? or a debian one ?
[04:26] <Tonio_> do you know why they didn't ?
[04:26] <Tonio_> because the file would have been copied on repos
[04:26] <Tonio_> that's obvious
[04:27] <Tonio_> I just respect google for one thing : they respect standards
[04:27] <Tonio_> that the good point
[04:30] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: no, loki installer is the most advanced version for supporting most distros
[04:30] <birthdaylogger> while if you package an RPM for redhat it might not work on suse or mandriva
[04:31] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: other solution could have been to give a binary tarball and let the packagers to the job ;)
[04:31] <birthdaylogger> that's what we want to do - for our users, not for google
[04:31] <birthdaylogger> and it is much more work to ask every distro to package a binary thing
[04:31] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: the point is it is illegal
[04:32] <birthdaylogger> or get packagers which can build one for msot
[04:32] <Tonio_> and that will probably not change since we ask for it
[04:32] <Tonio_> except on an illegal repo like the plf
[04:32] <Tonio_> we can put it there, but that's it
[04:32] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: it doesn't change the possability they give us a license
[04:32] <birthdaylogger> or they open up an own repo
[04:33] <Tonio_> nope, but as plf exists and is plainly illegal, we can put the package their ;)
[04:33] <birthdaylogger> but we don't want to be illegal, do we?
[04:33] <aliasfred> about reporsitory, the 'new' repository for commercial software, anybody can enter ? or opera got a special deal with ubuntu ?
[04:33] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: do you use w32codecs ?
[04:33] <birthdaylogger> perfect solution would be to get a deal with google so that the package ends up in the canonical repo or something
[04:33] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: no
[04:33] <Tonio_> aliasfred: it is a deal with opera ues
[04:34] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: good response :)
[04:34] <Tonio_> do we want to be illegal? sure no
[04:34] <Tonio_> do we have the choice ? no
[04:34] <birthdaylogger> we have the possability to get a choice
[04:34] <Tonio_> as marilliat's packages, they are not legal, but does he have another option ? no
[04:34] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: try !
[04:34] <birthdaylogger> yeah :P
[04:35] <Tonio_> no problem with it...
[04:35] <Tonio_> I can bet my salary they won't even take a second to answer
[04:35] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: they even wanted to do some cooperation with amarok
[04:35] <birthdaylogger> concerning their music search thingy
[04:36] <birthdaylogger> though one of our members forgot to answer :S
[04:36] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: google as 10000 project a day
[04:36] <birthdaylogger> it was a personalized answer
[04:36] <Tonio_> and most of the time internet invents projects for them :)
[04:36] <Tonio_> what I can see is google, 8 years claiming they LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE FOSS, not a fucking line of free code released....
[04:36] <birthdaylogger> sure, but why shouldn't they be interessted when we support their stuff for free?
[04:36] <aliasfred> Tonio_: is there a way for a free of charge software to be included in the ubuntu repository ? a process to follow ? or "do your own repository and ask the user to point to it" is the only answer ?
[04:37] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: again, they contributed code to at least wine and mozilla
[04:37] <birthdaylogger> I think they even done some work on vlc
[04:37] <Tonio_> alias, there is a way to make it that is legal
[04:37] <birthdaylogger> not sure about that though
[04:37] <Tonio_> make a debian package that doewnloads and installs the application
[04:37] <Tonio_> that's perfectly legal
[04:38] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: no, vlc is developed by a french school, and a french isp
[04:38] <Tonio_> certainly not google :)
[04:38] <birthdaylogger> mozilla is developed by google?
[04:38] <Tonio_> they USE vlc yes, but they didn't do anything to promote it
[04:38] <birthdaylogger> why should they promote open source?
[04:38] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: they shouldn't
[04:38] <birthdaylogger> what point does open source have if we need companies to promote it?
[04:39] <Tonio_> but they are TRYING to make people think they are
[04:39] <birthdaylogger> google even doesn't promote their own stuff
[04:39] <Tonio_> good example is you ;)
[04:39] <birthdaylogger> nah
[04:39] <aliasfred> Tonio_: maybe my question is not at the proper moment, but all in my stuff is legal :) nothing about illegal, just to know about the policy to be included in the repositories such as 'apt-get install apps' does install it. without the manually edit sources.list stage :)
[04:39] <birthdaylogger> they support FOSS
[04:39] <Tonio_> google helps vlc -> false, they just use it
[04:39] <birthdaylogger> they don't promote it
[04:39] <Tonio_> they promote mozilla, that's true
[04:40] <Tonio_> but to me google is just close to opensource to shit on microsoft
[04:40] <birthdaylogger> ah, they power it - as they think it's better for them
[04:40] <Tonio_> when you look at their licencing, there is no much difference
[04:40] <birthdaylogger> any EULA looks that way
[04:41] <birthdaylogger> that's the point of a default EULA, why should you allow stupid people to do crap with your software?
[04:41] <aliasfred> ok i will reask later for my pacakge stuff :)
[04:41] <Tonio_> but well, linux users hate microsoft and love google.... I don't understand why, but that's it, so let's stop there ;)
[04:41] <aliasfred> about google, they do give money for foss
[04:41] <birthdaylogger> why do we sign packages?
[04:41] <Tonio_> aliasfred: summer of code ? mouarf :)
[04:41] <aliasfred> google summer of code is like 500kus
[04:41] <Hobbsee> birthdaylogger: so that the repositories know that hobbsee is actually hobbsee, not some imposter.
[04:41] <Tonio_> that's nothing !!!!!!!
[04:41] <aliasfred> 72millions to mozilla
[04:41] <birthdaylogger> Hobbsee: right
[04:41] <Tonio_> it is marketing genius, but that's all
[04:41] <birthdaylogger> so what should google do?
[04:42] <Hobbsee> birthdaylogger: and it means that you can upload from multiple computers, if ~/.gnupg is on there, and you've got the passphrase
[04:42] <birthdaylogger> gnugpg their code?
[04:42] <aliasfred> well then it is about their motivation
[04:42] <Tonio_> can you imagin the ads done for google arround the world for only 500kus ?
[04:42] <birthdaylogger> every saw a gnugpg'ed code?
[04:42] <Hobbsee> birthdaylogger: no, the folder in home
[04:42] <aliasfred> but they do give money, the point of why they do give is another
[04:42] <birthdaylogger> Tonio_: they aim to make money
[04:42] <Tonio_> aliasfred: yes, for mozilla I agree, they really help them
[04:42] <Tonio_> because mozilla is for them a weapon to shit on microsoft
[04:43] <Tonio_> birthdaylogger: what I see is that microsoft as code on sourceforge while google doesn't....
[04:43] <birthdaylogger> microsoft is just doing what you say about google
[04:43] <Tonio_> would I say MS is promoting FOSS ? no
[04:43] <birthdaylogger> make people think they promote/support/distribute FOSS
[04:43] <Tonio_> but they have a partnership with xen, projects on sourceforge, they will support opendocument......
[04:43] <birthdaylogger> they will just make money
[04:44] <Tonio_> yes MS and google are exactly the same
[04:44] <birthdaylogger> MONEY MONEY AND EVEN MORE MONEY
[04:44] <birthdaylogger> that's all
[04:44] <aliasfred> ms knows they are going down, so they try not to drawn too fast
[04:44] <birthdaylogger> they follow the market
[04:44] <birthdaylogger> which is moving to FOSS
[04:44] <birthdaylogger> so MS is moving FOSS
[04:44] <Tonio_> but in the foss world, MS is the ennemy, while google is "the good friend"
[04:44] <Tonio_> that's a non-sense
[04:45] <aliasfred> well google doesnt have the evil history of ms
[04:45] <birthdaylogger> why should google be an enemy? they don't even say 'we might sue a code because he's hurting our patents'
[04:45] <birthdaylogger> MS does
[04:45] <birthdaylogger> just as the point of mono
[04:45] <Tonio_> aliasfred: no, but what they prepare is even worse
[04:45] <birthdaylogger> MS doesn't say they will not sue them
[04:45] <birthdaylogger> they just say, not yet
[04:45] <aliasfred> Tonio_: what do they prepare ?
[04:45] <Tonio_> consider the database they have
[04:46] <Tonio_> I'm affraid by that
[04:46] <aliasfred> i know what you mean :)
[04:46] <birthdaylogger> google is in the O#F foundation
[04:46] <birthdaylogger> grm
[04:46] <birthdaylogger> ODF group thingy
[04:46] <birthdaylogger> MS isn't
[04:46] <Tonio_> all they do is oriented in "we want to know you, what you do, the websites you go, the girls you f*ck, etc..."
[04:46] <aliasfred> so i have good knowledge of the evil google may do :)
[04:47] <aliasfred> especially because it is under a single control :)
[04:47] <Tonio_> gimme your files, store them on my server, gimme your mails, sign that I can read them, install my toolbar so I know what websites you like........
[04:47] <aliasfred> and that a single subponea can deliver all this info to some evil guys :)
[04:47] <Tonio_> excuse me, but that make me much more affraid than microsoft stupid war against standards
[04:48] <aliasfred> indead but how to fight it ?
[04:48] <aliasfred> all their apps are much better that any other alternatives
[04:48] <Tonio_> what missed ? wireless google condoms to guess who and when do I fuck, and that's it....
[04:48] <Tonio_> honnestly, google apps are very little bits of code...
[04:49] <bddebian> heh
[04:49] <Tonio_> can we compare google desktop search or any of thei software to oracle, ms sql server, ms exchange, windows 2003 or anything ?
[04:49] <aliasfred> dunno what you mean, but google apps are all very nice and have no comparitor :)
[04:49] <Tonio_> honnestly, google makes a lot of money, but what they do doesn't impress me that much
[04:50] <aliasfred> well their search is the best
[04:50] <aliasfred> their mail system is the best too 
[04:50] <Tonio_> their search ingine yes
[04:50] <aliasfred> google earth is the only one
[04:50] <Tonio_> their desktop search, no, for sure no
[04:50] <Tonio_> aliasfred: they didn't develop google earth, they just bought it
[04:50] <Tonio_> after this ?
[04:50] <Tonio_> when I see people comparing google to ms....
[04:50] <Tonio_> that's ridiculous :)
[04:51] <aliasfred> ah google video
[04:51] <Tonio_> 3 desktop softwares cannot be compared to the 300 softwares microsoft is developing
[04:51] <aliasfred> well not that bad all that :)
[04:51] <Tonio_> aliasfred: the player is simply an hidden vlc, and yes, their web services are nice
[04:52] <aliasfred> i do agree about the danger of their database, but clearly they do much better product that competitors
[04:52] <aliasfred> so how to fight it ?
[04:53] <Tonio_> google desktop search is far from beeing the bests
[04:53] <Tonio_> google talk is very limited
[04:53] <aliasfred> i mean, for me it is faster to run gmail.com that thunderbird on my local box :)
[04:53] <Tonio_> picasa is a simple bought software they didn't improved
[04:53] <Tonio_> same for google earth
[04:53] <aliasfred> when i realized this ... :)
[04:53] <Tonio_> okay, they have very good webservices, but that's it for me
[04:54] <aliasfred> so how to fight it ?  :)
[04:54] <Tonio_> I don't see google as a "monster of software development"
[04:54] <Tonio_> people are fantasming that microsoft is currently reached by google.........
[04:54] <Tonio_> the day google has a software like "visual studio", I will admit they can do good softwares
[04:55] <aliasfred> hehe ok i play evil for 30sec
[04:55] <bddebian> heh
[04:55] <Tonio_> aliasfred: how ? well, just use the necessary from google and ignore the reste
[04:55] <aliasfred> how much software ubuntu does ?
[04:55] <Tonio_> I have better than gmail
[04:55] <aliasfred> like 0 ? :)
[04:55] <aliasfred> ubuntu doesnt write code or very negligible :)
[04:55] <Tonio_> aliasfred: yes, but nobody talk about canonical as a "monster of the software development"
[04:55] <aliasfred> still it is good :)
[04:56] <Tonio_> while everybody wants to oppose google to microsoft.......
[04:56] <aliasfred> they opposose the power they have
[04:56] <Tonio_> for one line of code written by google, MS has probably 10000 lines of code at least
[04:56] <aliasfred> not the amount of code written
[04:56] <Tonio_> honnestly, that's uncomparable too
[04:57] <Tonio_> the only thing that makes google so powerfull is ads
[04:57] <aliasfred> in anycase i considere google as the only chance linux have to reach critical mass :)
[04:57] <Tonio_> the day that goes off, they will have real issues
[04:57] <Tonio_> not myself
[04:57] <Tonio_> I consider linux will never reach critical mass
[04:57] <aliasfred> who gonna pay the OEM to put linux on their box ?
[04:57] <Tonio_> not today, and not in 10 years
[04:57] <aliasfred> and pay more that ms :)
[04:57] <aliasfred> well i say 5years :)
[04:58] <Tonio_> never
[04:58] <aliasfred> so we disagree :)
[04:58] <Tonio_> 10 percent of the market is the maximum linux can have
[04:58] <Tonio_> you know why ?
[04:58] <Tonio_> look at firefox
[04:58] <aliasfred> tell me
[04:58] <Tonio_> lots of money spent with ads
[04:58] <Tonio_> marketing
[04:58] <Tonio_> everyone trying to convince his neighboor
[04:58] <Tonio_> a great software
[04:59] <Tonio_> by far better than the microsoft's one
[04:59] <bddebian> Because GNU/Linux is written by developers for developers, that's why :-)
[04:59] <Tonio_> everything is done to make it a success
[04:59] <Tonio_> and it is certainly not a "big success"
[04:59] <Tonio_> it has about 17% of the market
[04:59] <Tonio_> IE still has 80%, when it's sucking, features laking etc.........
[04:59] <aliasfred> Tonio_: ok, but what is the relation with 'linux reaching critical mass' ?
[05:00] <Tonio_> I mean, everyone talks about IE to be going to be defeat by firefox....
[05:00] <Hobbsee> hi freeflying 
[05:00] <Tonio_> I would like to be defeated with 80% of the market
[05:00] <Tonio_> IE's market share is still bigger that ipod's one !
[05:00] <aliasfred> what is the relation with anyuthing
[05:00] <Tonio_> nobody seems to realise this
[05:01] <Tonio_> aliasfred: the point is that it is too late for linux to reach the mass
[05:01] <Tonio_> microsoft is there
[05:01] <aliasfred> ?
[05:01] <Tonio_> the only chance we have is by putting linux in schools
[05:01] <Tonio_> but starting to make things changing will take at least one complete generation
[05:01] <aliasfred> Tonio_: it is unargumented stattement :)
[05:02] <Tonio_> aliasfred: do people want something else ? mostly no
[05:02] <Tonio_> here is the point
[05:02] <aliasfred> Tonio_: you say 'linux will never reach critical mass' then 'because firefox has only 20% of the market even if the product is much better'
[05:02] <aliasfred> ah ok
[05:02] <aliasfred> this one is a arguement
[05:02] <Tonio_> I'm just saying that as long as the people don't wan't it, that'll never change
[05:02] <aliasfred> you fell that window user are satisfied and so wont switch to another product if they have the choise
[05:03] <Tonio_> the point is that viruses and crashes are now acceptable for them
[05:03] <Tonio_> "that always happens and is normal with informatics"
[05:03] <aliasfred> well your example about firefox teachs us something, the cost of switching is very high for the final user
[05:03] <Tonio_> so they are comfortable with windows
[05:04] <aliasfred> but in 2 years from now, ubuntu will be vastly better than vista
[05:04] <Tonio_> aliasfred: yes, very hight, but imagin that firefox doesn't replace anything, is easy to replace, and doesn't imply any infos losing
[05:04] <Tonio_> can you imagin the fear of switching to linux ?
[05:04] <aliasfred> exactly like firefox is vastly better that IE
[05:04] <aliasfred> so why would they switch ?
[05:04] <aliasfred> one point is the price :)
[05:04] <Tonio_> if linux had a chance to reach the mass, firefox would have 70% of the market to day
[05:04] <Tonio_> but that will not happen
[05:04] <Tonio_> 17% is the maximum
[05:05] <aliasfred> how much do i give to ms when i buy a computer ?
[05:05] <Tonio_> when IE7 is released, firefox will go back to <10% market share
[05:05] <Tonio_> aliasfred: too much :)
[05:05] <aliasfred> with the ms license bundled in it
[05:05] <aliasfred> yep but how much is this ?
[05:05] <Tonio_> I would say like 40 
[05:05] <Tonio_> maybe 30 
[05:05] <Tonio_> it depends on the brand in fact :)
[05:06] <Tonio_> dell has certainly better prices that a little asian company
[05:06] <Tonio_> but oem licences are not that expensive in fact
[05:06] <aliasfred> ok now imagine you go to auchan/kmart and the vendor tell you 'ok this is 30euro less if you take ubuntu" here is a box running ubuntu
[05:06] <Tonio_> aliasfred: nobody will want to take the risk
[05:06] <aliasfred> and you see fancy eyes candy like xgl and 3d window like looking glass
[05:07] <Tonio_> they would prefer to by a "HEWLET PACKARD" with "MICROSOFT "inside
[05:07] <aliasfred> relax and imagine
[05:07] <Tonio_> and of course
[05:07] <Tonio_> they are completly lost if they don't see the "intel inside" logo on th computer
[05:07] <Tonio_> becuase only intel allows wireless on the top of north pole
[05:07] <Tonio_> ;)
[05:08] <aliasfred> you are the customer, you pay less, you have better software, will you ask yourself "hey maybe i should try" ? :)
[05:08] <Tonio_> honnestly, the mass is too stupid to even think about making a choice
[05:08] <Tonio_> well I and you are probably more intelligent that 80% of the people
[05:08] <Tonio_> since we all seem to be able to make a choice
[05:08] <aliasfred> you are having a bad day, or you are always like that ? :)
[05:09] <Tonio_> the "critical mass" is generally "critically stupid"
[05:09] <Tonio_> hum
[05:09] <Tonio_> both :)
[05:09] <aliasfred> ok :)
[05:09] <Tonio_> the mass is stupid
[05:09] <Tonio_> want an evidence of this ?
[05:09] <Tonio_> look at ads on the tv
[05:09] <Tonio_> can you imagin this works ???????
[05:09] <aliasfred> hehe :)
[05:10] <aliasfred> ok then several stuff
[05:10] <aliasfred> "even master have master"
[05:10] <Tonio_> doesn't that prove that 80% of the people are sheeps ?
[05:10] <aliasfred> this saying is interesting as you think you are smarter that the other guys, and you may be, the point is "dont forget that other are even smarter" :)
[05:11] <Tonio_> no, I'm not smarter
[05:11] <aliasfred> so be nice with others :)
[05:11] <Tonio_> but I try to protect my brain
[05:11] <Tonio_> most people simply leave with the mouth opened, ready to beleive anything
[05:12] <Tonio_> don't mind, I am far from beeing an integrist
[05:12] <Tonio_> do you know who is jacques brel ?
[05:12] <aliasfred> yep
[05:12] <aliasfred> im french too :)
[05:12] <Tonio_> one day he said :
[05:13] <Tonio_> "I don't like stupid people, because stupidness is laziness"
[05:13] <Tonio_> I most of the time agree with this
[05:13] <bddebian> 80% of users ARE sheep :-)
[05:13] <Tonio_> bddebian: THANK YOU !!!!!!
[05:13] <Tonio_> I was feeling like an integrist alone !
[05:13] <aliasfred> damn i though that people on the internet were all dogs
[05:14] <Tonio_> aliasfred: this is the reason I never try to get someone involved to linux
[05:14] <Tonio_> he can ask if he wants
[05:14] <Tonio_> but I want HIM to decide to ask first
[05:14] <bddebian> Which is part of the reason GNU/Linux won't make it.  Most developers seem to think that users have a brain, when over half of users can barely turn on their PCs much less configure CUPS
[05:14] <aliasfred> like i said when the web started "this web stuff is nice, who gonna play the spider ?" :)
[05:14] <aliasfred> g..gle hint :)
[05:15] <Tonio_> when I'm trying to convince someone to use linux, I'm doing the same than l'oreal with those crappy stupid ads on the tv
[05:15] <aliasfred> Tonio_: hehe i can imagine you trying to convince a user :)
[05:15] <Tonio_> aliasfred: I've never done
[05:15] <aliasfred> Tonio_: talking about freedom, open standard etc :)
[05:15] <Tonio_> even my girlfriend
[05:16] <Tonio_> I've been waiting for her to ask me to give her a try
[05:16] <Tonio_> but yes, I'm a heavy debater :)
[05:16] <aliasfred> me i said no window on my lan, matter of security
[05:16] <Tonio_> hard to get the final word with me :)
[05:16] <Tonio_> aliasfred: I would say that windows can be secured too...
[05:17] <Tonio_> 500 000 000 computers with windows in lan companies
[05:17] <aliasfred> well i dont know how and i dont trust ms
[05:17] <Tonio_> how much are crashing because of security issues ? :)
[05:17] <aliasfred> so no joke about security, my box contains data important to me
[05:17] <Tonio_> yes I don't trust ms too, but windows isn't that security problematic
[05:18] <Tonio_> aliasfred: so not any computer is able to help you
[05:18] <aliasfred> well they have a real bad trackable record on the matter
[05:18] <Tonio_> because a computer IS unsecure
[05:18] <Tonio_> why do companies print so much according to you ;)
[05:19] <aliasfred> because reading on screen is painfull for the eyes :)
[05:19] <Tonio_> nope, because paper is the best way to prevent the datas
[05:19] <Tonio_> not any computer is giving security
[05:19] <Tonio_> the problem is certainly not ms ir linux of unix or mac
[05:19] <Tonio_> :)
[05:20] <Tonio_> oups s/ir/or
[05:20] <aliasfred> hehe ok you win :)
[05:20] <aliasfred> i have to go back doing some work
[05:20] <Tonio_> seya ;)
[05:20] <aliasfred> damn working is so hard :)
[05:53] <danimo> hmm, which packages has the database-specific plugins for libqt4-sql ?
[05:55] <danimo> Riddell: do you know?
[09:47] <allee> oh, oh. More and more KDE translator teams get pissed by rosetta :(
[10:21] <crimsun> allee: what're the issues?
[10:22] <allee> crimsun: last one I saw was that new msgs translated in kdesvn did not override translations done in rosetta
[10:22] <allee> saw == in kde-i18n-doc ml
[10:22] <crimsun> ah
[10:24] <allee> crimsun: you're somehow involved in rosetta?
[10:24] <crimsun> allee: no, just curious what you were referring to
[10:25] <allee> :)
[10:28] <toma> allee: i had discussions with riddell and tonio already. I really think we should work on a solution
[10:28] <toma> but it seems difficult to fthink of one acceptable by both
[10:29] <toma> i'll put it on the agenda 
[10:41] <allee> toma: yes.  The direction discussion on kde-i18n-doc take worries me
[10:47] <birthdaylogger> guys, the amaork splash bug has been fixed http://websvn.kde.org/?rev=565597&view=rev ;-)
[11:08] <kane__> any of the kaffeine developers around ?
[11:28] <goldenear> kane__: do you have a pb with kaffeine ?
[11:33] <kane__> goldenear: yes
[11:34] <kane__> goldenear: it sortof crashes when starting with - XMODIFIERS="@im=SCIM" kaffeine
[11:34] <goldenear> kane__: did you repport a bug on launchpad ?
[11:35] <kane__> goldenear: umm no ...
[11:35] <kane__> goldenear: sorry ... i thought this was #kde-devel :) LOL
[11:36] <goldenear> for a but it' s better to repport in on launchpad :)
[11:37] <goldenear> but/bug
[11:37] <kane__> goldenear: yeah well ... its probably better to report it on bugs.kde.org
[11:38] <goldenear> depends if it's a ubuntu specific bug or not...