/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2006/07/24/#ubuntu-doc.txt

nixternalty sir12:15
nixternalwhew, im stuffed12:15
nixternalUWN SENT12:35
nixternalis there a way that i get approved to send to the ubuntu-news list?  so it doesn't get bounced back and say "waiting for approval cuz your a looser"?12:45
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nixternalalrighty, lets get some docwork done01:54
nixternalwhat do we have on the agenda?01:55
LaserJocknot sure01:57
LaserJockoh, where's the latest UWN?01:58
nixternalhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Current01:58
nixternalit is sitting in the new-list queue right now01:58
LaserJockhave you talked to imbrandon recently?02:02
nixternali haven't seen imbrandon recently02:02
nixternalit has been a few days since i talked to him last02:02
LaserJockhmm, 'cause he never poked me about that podcast. I wonder if he had something come up.02:03
nixternalhey may of...but i haven't seen anything from him at all this weekend02:05
nixternals/hey/he02:05
LaserJockdoh, my interview was on the UWN?02:05
nixternalmuhahha02:06
nixternali grabbed everything from the news section, and posted it ;)02:06
nixternali would like to propose that the UWN be stopped, and further community news be done on the fridge..and that the fridge becomes something a little more then it is02:07
nixternali would offer to help as well02:07
nixternali get a few thousand news articles a day via akregator and my subscriptions...so i always have enough to post02:07
nixternali received complaints on this UWN, as it didn't seem professional..so i totally wiped out a lot of stuff i added so people would stop whining02:09
nixternalthey said, who reads the UWN?  Users...i told them they were wrong, and the only users who read it was us, since we are probably the only ones who actually subscribe to the mailing list02:09
nixternalthe fridge has a chance, and has a good base to reach more people..they just need an active staff02:10
nixternali know probably working the fridge and getting it to kick @$$ might hurt sites like ubuntuos, and buntudot, but I am in this for Ubuntu, not another site that I provide articles and what not on02:11
nixternalok..i will shut up now, since everyone fell aslseep02:12
LaserJockwell, I would say that UWN should be contintued *on* fridge rather than stopped02:12
LaserJockand I agree that fridge should be more02:12
nixternalwell with the fridge, you would have daily news, so no need for UWN, except maybe a "Weekly Wrap Up"02:12
LaserJockyou need some sort of filter02:13
LaserJockbecause there are too many items02:13
LaserJockso you need the general RSS aggregator type feel02:13
LaserJockwith an additional overview02:13
LaserJock"What happend this week"02:13
nixternalthats why you would have "categories" and each story applies to a category, then you can have a search, that would be able to filter on "categories" as well as "dates"02:13
LaserJockis there a framework fo that sort of thing?02:14
nixternaland you can take the results and create a post that would do exactly that02:14
nixternalthere has to be, since many sites already do it..im sure drupal can do it as well02:14
nixternalLike each sunday, do a "The Week in Review" type of deal, that lists the weeks news, with 1 sentence at most with a description..and then a brief paragraph on upcoming stuff if possible02:17
nixternalbecause truthfully..the UWN is for the "Active Community"02:17
nixternalthose of us that are on teams02:17
LaserJockand I think it's valuble02:18
LaserJockI just doubt most of the Ubuntu users really find it fascinating02:19
nixternalim sure if they do read it, when it comes to meetings and what not, they are probably like "wth is this"02:19
LaserJockyep02:20
nixternalfor instance..i can go into #ubuntu and #kubuntu, and ask if anyone checked out the latest Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter..and i guarantee only a select few *who happen to be active members of the community* will even know what it is02:20
nixternalheck, i can even show you some people who are active in the community, but don't subscribe the ubuntu-news list02:21
LaserJockwell, that's marketing, IMO (that's my favorite term this week it seems)02:21
nixternalhehe02:21
LaserJockthere's an ubuntu-news list?02:21
nixternali think marketing the fridge would be easier and more user friendly would it not?02:21
nixternalthat is where the newsletter goes02:21
nixternali think02:21
LaserJockah, I wondered02:22
LaserJockyes, I think it almost has to be a website with RSS02:22
nixternal"Ubuntu News" <ubuntu-news@lists.ubuntu.com>02:22
nixternalyup, that is the list02:22
LaserJockusers aren't going to do mailing lists or the wiki to find stuff like that02:22
LaserJockI don't even want to02:22
nixternali mean, the RSS for the fridge is already implemented in Kubuntu with akregator and kontact02:22
nixternalso, even if a new user starts either one of those, and just happens to click anything, they will get news from the fridge02:23
LaserJockI just think fridge could be revamped with a bigger team of contributors02:23
nixternalwell...there hasn't been news from the fridge in a while though ;)02:23
LaserJockperhaps all Ubuntu Memebers should be able to post fridge material in some automatic way02:24
nixternal+1 on that, and I would volunteer to do so as well02:24
nixternalhmmm...maybe create a program like the "pastebin" app in gnome, but it posts to the fridge instead02:24
nixternali could however see a select few, being ubuntu members, used for moderating/editing news posts02:25
nixternalim not the best at proofreading, spelling, or grammar at all..i mean i grew up in chicago where we all talk funny02:25
LaserJockyeah, I know what you mean02:26
LaserJockyou'd need a non-native english speaker to get it right ;-)02:26
nixternallol02:26
LaserJockwell, the fridge will get going02:27
LaserJockthe problem with projects that are run by one person is that they can easily fall into disuse or go away02:28
LaserJockif we can get enough people behind the fridge then it will get rockin soon enough02:28
LaserJockbut I'd like to see a community effort there02:28
nixternalsame here02:29
LaserJockthe problem is, I think, that everybody can see that there's a problem but don't know where to go to fix it02:30
nixternalno doubt02:30
bimberithe CC?02:31
LaserJockI'm guessing it could be an item for the CC02:31
nixternalwhen is the next CC?02:31
LaserJockbut I think jdub would need to be consulted02:31
nixternalsomeone can put meetings on the fridge, but news is hard ;)02:31
nixternaljdub's days are limited, so it would be nice to know who is replacing him there02:32
bimberiit certainly needs a wider editorship, not sure about _all_ members though :)02:32
LaserJockit should be on the 25th02:32
nixternalsflaw has posted on there in the past02:32
bimberiplanet.ubuntu.com provides that02:32
LaserJockbimberi: all members being able to post certain things, not editing at large02:32
LaserJockI really don't like planet02:32
LaserJockfor some reason02:32
nixternalthe planet is just developer's blogs correct?02:32
LaserJockI rather see planet folded into fridge02:33
LaserJocknixternal: I think it's open to all members02:33
LaserJockbut it's a blog feed yes02:33
bimberiLaserJock: ah, kk02:33
bimberiyes, i'm under the impression its for all members02:33
nixternalAHHH02:34
bimberiCanonical is employing a "Community Manager".  Perhaps that will catalyse some change there02:34
nixternali goto planet.ubuntu.com and i see Corey's big ol' bean with his evil smile lookin' at me02:35
LaserJockbimberi: perhaps, although I'm not sure who/when that will be02:35
bimberiyes.  applications have closed,  well the job is no longer posted02:36
LaserJockcool02:36
nixternalheh, it also seems that the planet has some language that might not be PG, especially for the youngsters.02:37
=== LaserJock sighs, I guess I didn't get it then ;-)
nixternalhowever, the youngsters, swear worse then most02:37
bimberihttp://www.ubuntu.com/employment02:37
nixternalbut it isn't professional02:37
LaserJocknixternal: yes, well, they are blogs02:37
nixternalderr02:37
nixternal;)02:37
bimberiLaserJock: :)02:37
LaserJockthat's why I think fridge is necessary02:37
bimberiyep, agreed.  Just needs it's tempo raised somewhat02:38
bimberi*its02:38
LaserJockyeah, and more content02:38
LaserJockI think buntudot.org's podcasts are really cool (not that I'm biased or anything)02:39
LaserJockpointers to docs (tip of the day from the desktop guides)02:40
LaserJockUWN type stuff02:40
LaserJockapp of the day02:40
bimberifirst i'd heard of them *makes note to configure ipodder*02:40
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LaserJockwhat would be excellent is items that would increase the developer-> communication without being time consuming for developers and way over the head of users02:42
LaserJockdeveloper-> user comunication that is02:42
nixternalya, that is true laserjock02:42
nixternali forgot about those sections of the UWN that would be pretty neat for 'new or typical' users02:42
LaserJockbut who would read them?02:43
LaserJockI doubt new or even typical users are reading UWN, but I could be wrong of course02:43
nixternaloh they aren't, but getting them on a section of the fridge that would be RSS or what not02:44
LaserJockyes02:44
LaserJockI would like to be able to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu news needs02:44
nixternalok, well then maybe the UWN is a good idea, just delivered wrong02:44
LaserJockjust like I want to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu help needs02:44
LaserJockyes02:44
nixternalya..it is irc.freenode.net silly02:45
LaserJockI think the UWN is good, mainly targeted towards active community members, but still very useful02:45
LaserJockand targeted towards the top as well ;-)02:45
nixternali think that the planet is good, if used to blog "Ubuntu" stuff more then personal stuff..like blog about your Ubuntu work for the week...or maybe setup an Ubuntu blog system where "Ubuntu Members" can blog their Ubuntu achievments for the wekk02:46
nixternalthen take that info/input and work it in somehow as well02:47
LaserJockwell, I think you can set it to just grab a category of your blog02:48
LaserJockbut I'm guess many people don't do that02:48
LaserJockhttp://fridge.ubuntu.com/about is interesting02:49
LaserJockI think it's a good idea that just never reached critical mass02:49
nixternalor goals02:50
nixternalthe downunder even was a year ago02:51
nixternalevent*02:51
LaserJockanyway, we can talk all we want02:51
LaserJockbut it's just talk02:51
nixternalwhat can we do then? 02:52
LaserJockprobably ask jdub what the future of fridge is and where it stands02:52
nixternalcreate a spec against something already there?  im not a developer, so i can't tell you what needs to be done, but i can tell you how i think it could rock! ;)02:52
LaserJockit could be that there is already a plan in progress that we don't know about02:52
nixternalwell, maybe you should email him, as i have never gotten a response from him02:53
LaserJockdid you email him more than once about it?02:53
nixternalmore then 5 times02:53
nixternali emailed him 5+ for mailing list info02:53
nixternali emailed him letting him know i would be more then willing to help out with the fridge, my plans/future with ubuntu, and what im doing now02:54
LaserJockthen I suggest it be an agenda item on the next CC, but in a very non-agressive way02:54
nixternaloh of course02:54
nixternalkind of like hey, it would be cool to get the fridge to function like this ;)02:54
LaserJockI wouldn't think even that02:55
LaserJockI would be more like, what is the current status and future of fridge as it seems it has become a bit stale and we would like to get it rocking again02:55
LaserJockI don't know02:56
bimberium, this looks very relevant -  http://digg.com/linux_unix/Jeff_Waugh_resigns_from_Canonical_to_go_back_to_gnome02:56
LaserJockI'd hate to propose any specific changes until we know exactly wha the status and current plans are02:56
LaserJockI doubt it's only us that have seen problems lately with fridge02:57
LaserJockbimberi: yes, that's my current guess as to why the fridge hasn't been updated for a while02:57
LaserJockalthough there isn't neccessarily a connection there02:58
LaserJockpeople come and go at Canonical but we should try to make sure the community can step in if needed02:59
LaserJockmaybe it already has, I have no idea02:59
nixternalwell, if Ubuntu is driven by the community, then i think that the fridge should be as well..of course there are things that shouldn't, but something for the community should be done by the community03:00
LaserJockwell, I'm not sure that it isn't exactly, but maybe it could be better03:00
LaserJockI have no idea who has access to editing fridge03:01
LaserJockall I see is that you can send items to fridg-devel@03:01
nixternal2 or 3 people from experience03:01
nixternaljdub is the only one that stands out, as well as sflaw03:01
LaserJockyou could always email the CC (they have a private ML) and ask if it would be appropriate to bring up at a CC meeting03:03
LaserJockI just don't want it to be a negative thing towards jdub because the guy is awesome and works so hard for Ubuntu03:04
nixternaloh w/o a doubt..i know how much he means, and i would never do that to anyone, no matter their status quo03:10
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nixternalLaserJock: i emailed the CC concerning the fridge, and asked if it should be an agenda item at the next cc meeting, or that i was open to communication further via email05:39
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LaserJockcool05:40
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nixternalalright LaserJock, got it all setup here06:25
LaserJocknixternal: ok, so if you load emacs and then do M-x plan06:26
LaserJocknixternal: do you get anythin?06:28
nixternalahh06:29
nixternalok..M-x plan must explain06:29
LaserJockdo you get a page with Tasks, Schedule, and Notes ?06:29
nixternali get the basic emacs window06:30
LaserJocknixternal: you on jabber?06:32
nixternalya06:32
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nixternalhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure07:05
nixternalwhen i get on with my lappy, paste that to me ;)07:05
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LaserJockhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure07:14
RichJty07:14
LaserJocknp07:14
RichJhehe07:14
RichJi haven't had the chance to read it, but i like his ideas07:14
RichJis there a current Help/Howto/Tutorial template for people to use when creating a wiki page?07:14
LaserJockthere's the wiki guide07:16
RichJya, but for people who come from the forums or what not and create a page07:18
RichJi kind of follow my own template when i do them...   i don't do the name of the page because moinmoin does it07:18
LaserJockthe wiki guide doesn't do that?07:18
LaserJockis it too much?07:18
RichJi do ==intro==, ==pre reqs==, ==install==, ==post install==, and so on07:18
RichJim sure the wiki guide does. but i dont' think everyone coming in and creating a page does07:19
LaserJocksure07:19
RichJso if there was a template for people to use, it might make the wiki organization easier07:20
LaserJockyeah, creating some nice doc templates07:22
LaserJockwould be nice07:22
RichJhmm07:22
RichJi might start doing some owrk07:23
RichJdocbook templates?07:23
LaserJockno, for the wiki07:23
LaserJocklike different templates for different kinds of docs07:23
RichJahhh07:24
RichJi can create some templates07:24
LaserJockI"m trying to think of various types of docs07:24
LaserJockmostly they are howtos I suppose07:24
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RichJya07:25
LaserJockbut if we had a template it might help the pages be more consistent and have all the info required07:25
RichJdon't say howtos around mdke_ though...he hates um07:25
LaserJockI know07:26
RichJthere is a homepage temp, laptop testing team, and others07:26
RichJbut no howto ones07:26
LaserJockbut we need doc templates for help.u.c wiki07:26
LaserJockit doesn't need spec templates and homepage templates, for instance07:27
RichJahhh..07:27
RichJtrue07:27
RichJwell, i will look at it here in a bit and come up something and propose it to the team i guess07:27
LaserJockyeah, send something to the ML07:28
RichJi can do that07:28
LaserJockok, I'm off to bed07:28
RichJi get in bed, and now im hungry07:28
LaserJockhehe07:28
RichJalrighty, good night sir, and thanks for the emacs stuff07:28
LaserJocknp07:28
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RichJjsgotangco: if you get the chance to grab the drupal theme, lemme know ;)07:44
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Kamping_Kaiseri'm just finishing seting up a gateway with dnsmasq+privoxy (stripping proxy)+polipo  (caching proxy), and i'm happy to write up some docs about it - anyone think its worth it? :)08:01
RichJi would say yes, as i have no clue wth you just said08:02
RichJ;)08:02
Kamping_Kaiserlol.08:02
Kamping_Kaiser:)08:02
=== Kamping_Kaiser goes to look at existing squid doc - wonder how comprehensive it is.
=== Kamping_Kaiser is supprised bzr isnt in the RCS part of the docs
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mdke_RichJ: there is a documentation template08:56
jsgotangcoapparently its not well documented ;)09:00
mdke_jsgotangco: it is documented on WikiGuide/PageCreation, and appears in the list of templates whenever you try and create a page...09:01
jsgotangcoim being funny ;)09:01
mdke_aha09:02
jsgotangcoyeah it doesnt take a lot of work to do more templates even, moin knows if its a template or not09:02
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RichJmdke: does the documentation template need to be edited at all?09:18
RichJis there something we can do, in order to bring it to the attention of a person who is posting to the wiki?09:18
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mdkeRichJ: feel free to suggest additions to the template. I can't think of anything more that can be done to bring it to people's attentions10:14
RichJtrue, just wish there was something that would make it not only easier on us, but easier on the user10:15
mdkeRichJ: I think it is as easy as it can be, to be honest10:16
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phanaticmdke: is there a special process for asking to generate docs from rosetta?10:16
mdkephanatic: what do you mean by generate?10:16
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phanaticmdke: we have a fully translated xubuntu guide, and a soon to be ready ubuntu guide translated into hungarian, and we'd like to see them on help.ubuntu.com10:17
mdkephanatic: no, there is no special process. I just generate them every month or so or whenever I have time10:17
phanaticmdke: ok, thanks. is it okay for you that i send you a note when we finish both guides?10:18
mdkephanatic: that won't really help, I can't take into account individual requests for specific languages, I just do them all at once10:20
mdkeI'll do them soon I suppose.10:20
mdkenice work doing all that translation10:20
phanaticmdke: oh, okay :)10:20
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mpt_"The audio manager manages everything audio." -- Ekiga help12:32
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mpt_lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?03:56
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mpt_lloydinho_: <mpt_ > lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?04:04
lloydinho_no.04:04
lloydinho_mpt: I hate that the doc does that automatically, I forget it all the time.04:05
lloydinho_*doc list*04:05
lloydinho_mpt_!04:06
mpt_The only Ubuntu list that works a different way, as far as I know, is ubuntu-women@04:06
lloydinho_really?04:06
lloydinho_well, I'll just resend it to the entire list then.04:06
mpt_ok, thanks04:07
lloydinho_np. It's just troublesome that doing a reply requires conscious thought to make sure that it ends up in the right place... ;-)04:08
mdkeconscious thought = bad04:10
mpt_All e-mail programs suck04:11
mpt_If I was designing an e-mail program, it would have "Reply to Author", "Reply to List", and "Reply to All" togglebuttons in the composition window itself04:11
jjessesquirell webmail has that04:12
jjesseso when i want to reply to the list I simply click on "reply to list" and it does that04:12
mpt_cool04:13
mdkeso what is the position with the doc-commits list? is it officially not working?04:14
jjessemdke: i havent' received any emails about the packaging guid changes04:15
mdkeme neither04:17
nixternalwell hello there everyone ;)04:23
jjessehiya nixternal04:25
nixternalhiya jjesse04:28
=== mdke swears at planet Ubuntu, which still refuses to syndicate his blog
mdkedoes anyone know how I get the text after the image to start again from underneath the image in http://www.mdke.org/blog/HelpMenu.html ??04:49
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mpt_http://www.alia.org.uk/imastecha/2003/10/newbie-20031026-04b.jpg04:56
mdke:)04:57
mdkempt_: you will clearly know the answer to my question04:57
mdkeany ideas?04:57
mpt_Er, I wasn't posting that in reference to anyone in particular04:57
mpt_honest!04:57
mpt_I just happened across it while looking for an icon for the "New to Ubuntu 6.10?" help category :-)04:58
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mpt_mdke, the easy way is to start the next paragraph with <p style="clear: both;">04:59
mpt_A more elegant way would be to have something like this in your style sheet:05:00
=== mdke tries the easy way
mpt_img {display: block;}05:00
mpt_img.icon {display: inline;}05:00
mpt_then use <img class="icon"...> for smileys and the like05:00
mpt_though, if you ever do end up on Planet Ubuntu, the easy solution would survive the syndication, while the elegant way would not05:01
mdketwo votes for the easy way05:01
mdkethanks05:02
mpt_BTW, for that image appropriate alt text would be alt="a 'System Documentation' item, then an 'Online Documentation' item, then a 'Community Support' item, then a 'Commercial Support' item, and finally an 'Ubuntu Book Excerpt' item."05:02
mdkeblimey05:03
mpt_so that if the image is unavailable for whatever reason I can understand what you're talking about05:04
mdkeyeah, I see05:07
mpt_So, three items in the menu, you think? :-)05:08
mdkeyour view?05:11
mdkeI don't really mind how many items, as long as they are coherent05:11
mpt_I'd be delighted with 4 for Edgy05:11
mpt_and 3 for Funky05:11
mpt_(if the linking from yelp search to help.ubuntu.com search can be implemented by then)05:12
mpt_but ultimately I'd be aiming for 1 :-)05:12
mdkewell, the system documentation can certainly refer to help.ubuntu.com on the front page, that takes it down to 3 for Edgy05:13
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mdkeit doesn't need to be completely integrated05:13
newz2000mdke: ping me when you have a moment... wanted your (and other doc team members') opinion on something.05:14
mpt_Hi newz2000, we were just discussing the possibility of sprucing up the http://www.ubuntu.com/support pages05:15
newz2000That's a good idea05:15
mpt_How should we submit such a redesign? As a bug report with Moin markup attached?05:15
newz2000Yeah, that works fine05:16
mpt_ok05:16
mpt_Is the top-level "Support" heading =Support=, or ==Support==?05:16
newz2000I probably want to get that aproved by ops... that's kind of the an important page to canonical05:16
mpt_understood05:17
newz2000= Support =05:17
=== mpt_ daydreams about A-vs.-B testing
mpt_newz2000, thanks05:17
mdkenewz2000: sure05:17
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newz2000Since we've got at least three matt's here I guess we're capable of discussing this... :D05:18
mpt_The Matt Committee will now come to order05:18
mdkempt_: something people have been doing for submitting spruced up web pages is to work on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website and subpages05:18
newz2000Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website05:18
newz2000What are your thoughts on that?05:19
mdkenewz2000: sounds good. I don't think I understand the question05:19
mpt_What do they want to put on such a site?05:19
newz2000My first thought was, "Why don't they just use wiki.ubuntu.com?"05:20
mdkeah. I see. No, I think local websites are absolutely essential05:20
mdkemost local teams have them already05:20
mdkehttp://ubuntu-it.org/ (then replace "it" with fr, nl, be, whatever)05:21
newz2000yeah05:21
newz2000Now I could easily redirect www.ubuntu-ve.org to the wiki as well.05:22
newz2000But the question is, where does the content fit best05:22
mpt_Community, perhaps05:23
mdkeare you suggesting redirecting all local teams websites and support sites to the wiki?05:23
mdkeI don't think I'm following very well05:23
newz2000Sorry for not being clear...05:24
newz2000Is there any reason not to put the loco team's content in the wiki and redirect to it from their home page, or does that type of content not fit well with the purpose of the wiki?05:25
mdkewell, all existing local teams have their own websites, with forums, documentation, news etc. I think the same should be available to all new ones05:27
newz2000Good point05:27
mdkethe wiki is generally used for community coordination, but not presentation05:27
=== mpt_ doesn't know enough about what locos put on their sites
mdkeso teams work out specs on it and so on, but a website is very useful for marketing ubuntu in a particular country/language05:27
newz2000That's true.05:27
newz2000And I guess they may want to translate the navigation into their local language05:28
mdkempt_: most local teams provide exactly the same resources that the international Ubuntu community provides: information about Ubuntu, news, documentation, forum, mailing list, planet, etc05:28
mpt_So what I'm thinking is that in ten years when Canonical has become a giant company with national offices, it decides "oh, we actually need to put professional stuff on these sites, sorry" ...05:29
newz2000mpt_ I don't see that really happening05:30
mpt_so maybe there's a useful distinction between loco teams, and "official" stuff05:30
mdkecanonical != Ubuntu05:30
mdkelocal teams are completely community run05:30
mpt_I know05:30
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mpt_but ubuntu.com isn't community-run05:30
newz2000I keep trying to phrase this so as not to sound lazy... I'm thinking more on eficiency...05:31
newz2000I've got two teams who just want a moin wiki that uses the ubuntu theme.05:31
newz2000And i get the impression they want me to manage their site for them. :-] 05:32
mdkeok. I think it depends what they want to do with it05:32
mdkeif it is team coordination, they should use the main wiki05:32
mdkeif documentation, it should be their choice, but the administration and theming is also up to them05:33
mpt_Sorry, I naturally think of edge cases05:33
mdkemany existing teams can help with that05:33
mpt_newz2000, I would be inclined to say "you're welcome to use wiki.ubuntu.com" and leave it at that05:33
mdkethat's basically the existing system, anyway05:33
newz2000Well, I'm not going to dictate what they have to do... I'm thinking along the lines of,05:34
mpt_newz2000, another potential problem is if some loco has a (petty but) bitter disagreement and splits in two, then both subgroups try to claim ownership of the site you've given them05:34
newz2000"I'm happy to give you the theme and setup moin on the server so that you can use it on your site. You'll have to admin it and manage it. You can also just put a redirect to your loco's team area on the main wiki i fyou like."05:34
newz2000mpt_ we give the site for free... that dispute is easy to resolve I think.05:35
newz2000But I wouldn't want to give them that message if the wiki.ubuntu.com is an inapropriate place to put loco team websites.05:35
newz2000I know you guys are trying to get stuff organized and I'd hate to be working against you05:36
mdkenewz2000: that sounds right. I would add that for team management the main wiki is appropriate05:36
mdkenewz2000: note that there is a mailing list and irc channel for discussing loco stuff, the docteam doesn't really work with them. #ubuntu-locoteams and loco-contacts@05:37
nixternal[10:18]  <newz2000> Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website05:37
=== nixternal raises his hand
nixternal;)05:38
nixternalhiya newz200005:38
newz2000nixternal: Hi. Yes, that's exactly what I'm disscussing05:38
nixternalsweet!05:38
mdkenixternal: what is the wiki to be used for?05:38
nixternalmdke: http://chi.ubuntu-us.org   Chicago LoCo website05:38
nixternali would like the site to mimic ubuntu.com05:39
mdkewell, for a website, I think granting hosting is entirely appropriate. It's team management that should stay on the wiki05:39
mdkenixternal: eh? mimic ubuntu.com? People in Chicago already know English...05:39
mdkewhy overlap?05:40
nixternallook the same as05:40
nixternalnot word for word05:40
mdkewell, don't overlap... otherwise it will get confusing05:40
newz2000do you want some stuff on your wiki that would make it inapropriate for inclusion in the regular wiki?05:40
nixternalno05:41
newz2000nixternal: btw, I'm glad your here to help out with this conversation... I've got one other guy who's asked for exactly the same setup05:41
nixternalthat is why i have been contemplating using drupal instead, and do all wiki stuff under /ChicagoTeam if necessary05:41
mdkebear in mind that the regular wiki is a community area, it is not for websites...05:41
mdkeso where a team wishes to make a website, regardless of the software they want to use, the regular wiki is unlikely to be appropriate05:42
nixternaltruthfully, the only thing i want on chicago loco site is a nice looking front page, small forums section, and possibly some blog space for the members05:42
newz2000nixternal: how about this...05:42
nixternalwhich i can do with drupal05:42
newz2000for the homepage and forums, use the webhosting space and for wiki type stuff redirect to the wiki.05:42
newz2000w.u.c/ChicagoGroup05:43
nixternalthats what i plan on doing newz2000, because i worked with MoinMoin here and it is definately to much for what we need05:43
newz2000I was just going to say that managing moin can be a chore05:43
mdkethat's sensible, but if somebody wants to use moinmoin as a CMS for their homepage, are we going to say no just because it is wiki software?05:44
nixternalim just interested in having a similar layout & design as ubuntu.com. so as to make the team look "official" in a way05:44
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newz2000mdke: I'm not going to say no, I'll give them what they need to do it.05:44
newz2000I just think that moin can be a bit of chore to setup and maintain (especially theme stuff)05:44
nixternalit is more then a chore05:45
nixternali had a heck of time with it ;)05:45
mdkethat makes perfect sense05:45
mdkenixternal: you can achieve the similar layout with any cms you like :)05:45
nixternalwhat would be nice, is to publish the theme used for ubuntu.com, moinmoin and drupal if possible..there are a couple of sites that look similar to ubuntu.com that are loco teams, and getting the theme has proved difficult05:46
mdkewe can do that. In the past I've hosted them at ubuntu-it.org05:46
mdkefor locoteams who want to use em05:47
nixternalthat would be great05:47
newz2000mdke: Can you give an example of what you think is "crossing the line" for a loco team who is using the wiki as their website?05:48
newz2000As in, "you really need to host this outside of the wiki"05:48
nixternali would say hosting pictures and what not of all their events might be a little to much (im sure you know where im going with it)05:49
mdkenewz2000:I think loco websites which are aimed at the general public can be done outside the wiki (if the local team wishes to do so), whereas things like team coordination, internal things, are best done on the wiki (especially if in English) because others can share those ideas.05:50
newz2000ok, so, "Here's where we meet, our next meeting is .... minutes from last meetings are ..." is all good stuff for wiki based team sites05:51
newz2000wiki.ubuntu.com that is05:51
mdkeright, in particular English teams05:52
mdkethat's broadly the current system, as far as I can see05:53
newz2000ok. So for non-english sites you'd encourage them to have their own wiki?05:53
mdkeI don't think it matters much05:54
mdkewe do it on our wiki for the italian team05:54
mdkebut our wiki is also used for documentation, so it gets plenty of use05:54
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newz2000ok. I think I'm getting the concept straight in my mind.05:55
mdkenewz2000: one more thing to bear in mind is that european teams can get hosting from a non-canonical source, the french and german teams have some servers which they offer for use05:56
mdkethat is incredibly badly documented, I'm afraid05:56
newz2000Are those different than my servers?05:56
mdkeyes05:56
mdkeI meant "non-Canonical" :)05:56
newz2000Wow... we have them all over the place.05:56
newz2000I see05:57
newz2000Do you happen to know if thats something related to smurf's stuff?05:57
mdkesmurf is one of the admins, but it is not related to his server, no05:58
newz2000ok. That's good to know.05:59
mdkethey are servers which the french team was given05:59
newz2000mdke: changing subjects, I put your style sheet in place and it broke the site. I quickly switched it out.06:00
newz2000The logo disappeared and there was a whit bar going across the top06:00
newz2000(white, not whit)06:01
newz2000Do you want to see it? I can put it in again for a moment if you like.06:01
=== mdke blinks
mdkenewz2000: what site?06:02
newz2000wiki.ubuntu.com06:02
mdkenewz2000: should have been help.ubuntu.com/community06:03
newz2000Gr... I should never trust my memory06:03
newz2000let me try that again then. :-] 06:03
mdkeit was just a one line change to #message, if I recall correctly06:04
newz2000That's what I thought you said. Before I did it I diffed and found lots of changes.06:04
=== newz2000 is embarrased
newz2000Interesting...06:05
newz2000that site isn't set up like the other wikis.06:05
mdkeI haven't seen the setup06:06
newz2000well, actually, I'm wrong.06:06
newz2000It is setup just like all the other wikis, however unlike the other wikis which live in the root folder, this one is in a subfolder.06:07
newz2000Therefore I expected the wiki stuff to also be in that subfolder.06:07
newz2000mdke: ok, its done.06:09
mdkenewz2000: thanks very much06:09
newz2000no prob.06:09
mdkenixternal: that was a request of yours to make the popups smaller, iirc06:09
nixternalwhich popups?06:10
newz2000brb06:11
mdkeon the help wiki, those blue boxes that Moin uses to send you messages06:11
nixternalthey are a tad bit large yes06:11
mdkenow they should be better06:12
nixternalohhh..ya, up top06:12
nixternalawesome06:12
nixternalthe after edit, redirect messages up top look great now06:13
nixternalhiya LaserJock06:13
nixternalbtw, Muse and EmacsWiki aren't friends..i had to totally change the setup for the lappy...now i just need to figure out how to save it as .html and not .muse when i publish it06:14
newz2000I did some experimentation with that message on the bzr site... (I too found it anoying)06:14
newz2000http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion?action=show&redirect=BzrSvn06:14
newz2000I had to sneak a few easter eggs in... if you click "clear message" it just hides the box, it doesn't refresh the page.06:15
newz2000(unless you have javascript turned off... then you get the old behavior)06:15
nixternalnow that is sweet06:15
newz2000Its still got one minor bug in it (which I'm fixing now)06:15
newz2000Some of the other links on the page get ruined06:16
mdkenice effect06:18
newz2000If it doesn't interfere with usability its fun to have a little eye candy now and then06:19
LaserJocknixternal: this the relevent part of my .emacs: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/1878906:19
mdkenewz2000: absolutely, sometimes improves usability :)06:20
nixternalty LaserJock06:21
jjessemdke; just received notification about r3183 from doc-commits06:46
LaserJockyeah06:48
LaserJockinteresting06:48
LaserJockperhaps I need to stop late-night commit messages06:48
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lloydinho_newz2000: Still around?06:58
newz2000lloydinho_ yes06:58
lloydinho_I was just looking at the Community support subpage on ubuntu.com06:58
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lloydinho_In the Ubuntu Website Section - there's a link which doesn't lead anywhere.06:59
lloydinho_"support/documentation project documentation"06:59
lloydinho_I guess it's a MoinMoin thing.06:59
mpt_newz2000, while you're there, it's not appropriate for /support to link to wiki.ubuntu.com any more06:59
mpt_since all the help stuff is on help.ubuntu.com06:59
newz2000mpt_: ok, I can fix that quickly. lloydinho_ can you send me a link to the page... I'm not seeing it07:00
mpt_thanks newz2000 07:00
lloydinho_http://www.ubuntu.com/support/free - all the way down at the bottom07:01
newz2000gotcha07:01
lloydinho_thanks! ;-)07:01
newz2000let me make a note... Right now I'm updating FAQ07:01
=== mpt_ was just getting depressed at the FAQ
newz2000Linking to attachments is giving me a fit07:03
newz2000what am I doing wrong? [attachment:support/faq/ShipIt+Generic+Customs+Letter+Chinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 07:04
mpt_I didn't know you could do that in Moin07:04
newz2000You can do it in 1.507:06
newz2000If you use the gui it even has an nice little dialog that creates the link for you from a list of attachments07:06
newz2000and http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnActions/AttachFile implies you can do it in older versions too07:06
=== newz2000 throws up his hands
LaserJocklol, and Corey's patch came in on -commits after mine, weird07:07
newz2000To make it harder, 5 times out of 6, the text box cuts off my content mid-way.07:07
mpt_newz2000, I know about attachment:filename, but not about [attachment:filename link text] 07:08
mpt_Have you used that syntax before?07:08
newz2000oh07:08
newz2000I just assumed it would work the way other links work.07:08
mpt_Past 5am, time for sleep...07:10
LaserJockyikes07:11
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newz2000Hmm... my only problem seems to have been spaces in the file name. This works: [attachment:CustomsChinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 07:18
jjessemdke: looks like doc-committs is catching up. saw reviesion 3181 come across07:21
nixternalman, i just realize that wiht my marinenet account for the military, i can do all the of the linux LPI courses and what not for free07:21
nixternalthere is just one problem07:21
jjessethat's nice, you should get the ubuntu certification after you get lpi :)07:21
nixternalThis is an SSL secure site. You are either trying to access this site with a browser using less than 128 bit encryption or not using HTTPS.07:22
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nixternalLaserJock: i heard back from C. Watson as well concerning the fridge07:46
LaserJockyeah?07:46
nixternalno need for it at the CC, and to contact the fridge-dev07:46
nixternalor the fridge-admin..the emal address that is on the fridge07:46
LaserJockok07:47
LaserJockhmm07:47
nixternalinstallin' emacs, muse-el, planner-el, remember-el on this computer now07:47
nixternal;)07:47
LaserJockhehe07:47
nixternalim addicted07:48
nixternali am definately using that for note takin' at the uni07:48
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mdkejjesse: yes, I bugged the admins and it looks like they fixed it08:35
mdkeor not :)08:36
LaserJockhehe08:37
LaserJockmdke: who is Spads?08:43
mdkehis irc name says "I'm a bird, I'm a board, I'm a flying horse!"08:43
mdkein reality, he is an admin08:44
LaserJockLP?08:44
mdkehttps://launchpad.net/people/nick-zork08:45
LaserJockah cool08:45
LaserJockso he joins elmo and znarl with being contantly bugged by people :-)08:46
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mdkeright08:47
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nixternalLaserJock: watch this!!!08:51
nixternallol08:52
nixternal^^ that is irc emacs style08:52
jjessewhat are we supposed to watch08:52
jjesse?08:52
nixternalhowever, i can't get it to send to the channel08:52
crimsunyou /are/ sending to the channel.08:52
nixternalahh, i bet it hasn't syncd yet, thats why08:52
crimsun/msg #ubuntu-doc like this.08:53
crimsunlike this.08:53
RichJlike this08:53
nixternalgotta fix that08:53
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RichJthere is a lot that needs to be tweaked08:54
LaserJockyeah, I still user irssi for IRC08:55
nixternali use konversation still...but..if the new version isn't to my liking, im done with it08:56
RichJi gotta figure out how to switch08:56
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