[12:15] <nixternal> ty sir
[12:15] <nixternal> whew, im stuffed
[12:35] <nixternal> UWN SENT
[12:45] <nixternal> is there a way that i get approved to send to the ubuntu-news list?  so it doesn't get bounced back and say "waiting for approval cuz your a looser"?
[01:54] <nixternal> alrighty, lets get some docwork done
[01:55] <nixternal> what do we have on the agenda?
[01:57] <LaserJock> not sure
[01:58] <LaserJock> oh, where's the latest UWN?
[01:58] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Current
[01:58] <nixternal> it is sitting in the new-list queue right now
[02:02] <LaserJock> have you talked to imbrandon recently?
[02:02] <nixternal> i haven't seen imbrandon recently
[02:02] <nixternal> it has been a few days since i talked to him last
[02:03] <LaserJock> hmm, 'cause he never poked me about that podcast. I wonder if he had something come up.
[02:05] <nixternal> hey may of...but i haven't seen anything from him at all this weekend
[02:05] <nixternal> s/hey/he
[02:05] <LaserJock> doh, my interview was on the UWN?
[02:06] <nixternal> muhahha
[02:06] <nixternal> i grabbed everything from the news section, and posted it ;)
[02:07] <nixternal> i would like to propose that the UWN be stopped, and further community news be done on the fridge..and that the fridge becomes something a little more then it is
[02:07] <nixternal> i would offer to help as well
[02:07] <nixternal> i get a few thousand news articles a day via akregator and my subscriptions...so i always have enough to post
[02:09] <nixternal> i received complaints on this UWN, as it didn't seem professional..so i totally wiped out a lot of stuff i added so people would stop whining
[02:09] <nixternal> they said, who reads the UWN?  Users...i told them they were wrong, and the only users who read it was us, since we are probably the only ones who actually subscribe to the mailing list
[02:10] <nixternal> the fridge has a chance, and has a good base to reach more people..they just need an active staff
[02:11] <nixternal> i know probably working the fridge and getting it to kick @$$ might hurt sites like ubuntuos, and buntudot, but I am in this for Ubuntu, not another site that I provide articles and what not on
[02:12] <nixternal> ok..i will shut up now, since everyone fell aslseep
[02:12] <LaserJock> well, I would say that UWN should be contintued *on* fridge rather than stopped
[02:12] <LaserJock> and I agree that fridge should be more
[02:12] <nixternal> well with the fridge, you would have daily news, so no need for UWN, except maybe a "Weekly Wrap Up"
[02:13] <LaserJock> you need some sort of filter
[02:13] <LaserJock> because there are too many items
[02:13] <LaserJock> so you need the general RSS aggregator type feel
[02:13] <LaserJock> with an additional overview
[02:13] <LaserJock> "What happend this week"
[02:13] <nixternal> thats why you would have "categories" and each story applies to a category, then you can have a search, that would be able to filter on "categories" as well as "dates"
[02:14] <LaserJock> is there a framework fo that sort of thing?
[02:14] <nixternal> and you can take the results and create a post that would do exactly that
[02:14] <nixternal> there has to be, since many sites already do it..im sure drupal can do it as well
[02:17] <nixternal> Like each sunday, do a "The Week in Review" type of deal, that lists the weeks news, with 1 sentence at most with a description..and then a brief paragraph on upcoming stuff if possible
[02:17] <nixternal> because truthfully..the UWN is for the "Active Community"
[02:17] <nixternal> those of us that are on teams
[02:18] <LaserJock> and I think it's valuble
[02:19] <LaserJock> I just doubt most of the Ubuntu users really find it fascinating
[02:19] <nixternal> im sure if they do read it, when it comes to meetings and what not, they are probably like "wth is this"
[02:20] <LaserJock> yep
[02:20] <nixternal> for instance..i can go into #ubuntu and #kubuntu, and ask if anyone checked out the latest Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter..and i guarantee only a select few *who happen to be active members of the community* will even know what it is
[02:21] <nixternal> heck, i can even show you some people who are active in the community, but don't subscribe the ubuntu-news list
[02:21] <LaserJock> well, that's marketing, IMO (that's my favorite term this week it seems)
[02:21] <nixternal> hehe
[02:21] <LaserJock> there's an ubuntu-news list?
[02:21] <nixternal> i think marketing the fridge would be easier and more user friendly would it not?
[02:21] <nixternal> that is where the newsletter goes
[02:21] <nixternal> i think
[02:22] <LaserJock> ah, I wondered
[02:22] <LaserJock> yes, I think it almost has to be a website with RSS
[02:22] <nixternal> "Ubuntu News" <ubuntu-news@lists.ubuntu.com>
[02:22] <nixternal> yup, that is the list
[02:22] <LaserJock> users aren't going to do mailing lists or the wiki to find stuff like that
[02:22] <LaserJock> I don't even want to
[02:22] <nixternal> i mean, the RSS for the fridge is already implemented in Kubuntu with akregator and kontact
[02:23] <nixternal> so, even if a new user starts either one of those, and just happens to click anything, they will get news from the fridge
[02:23] <LaserJock> I just think fridge could be revamped with a bigger team of contributors
[02:23] <nixternal> well...there hasn't been news from the fridge in a while though ;)
[02:24] <LaserJock> perhaps all Ubuntu Memebers should be able to post fridge material in some automatic way
[02:24] <nixternal> +1 on that, and I would volunteer to do so as well
[02:24] <nixternal> hmmm...maybe create a program like the "pastebin" app in gnome, but it posts to the fridge instead
[02:25] <nixternal> i could however see a select few, being ubuntu members, used for moderating/editing news posts
[02:25] <nixternal> im not the best at proofreading, spelling, or grammar at all..i mean i grew up in chicago where we all talk funny
[02:26] <LaserJock> yeah, I know what you mean
[02:26] <LaserJock> you'd need a non-native english speaker to get it right ;-)
[02:26] <nixternal> lol
[02:27] <LaserJock> well, the fridge will get going
[02:28] <LaserJock> the problem with projects that are run by one person is that they can easily fall into disuse or go away
[02:28] <LaserJock> if we can get enough people behind the fridge then it will get rockin soon enough
[02:28] <LaserJock> but I'd like to see a community effort there
[02:29] <nixternal> same here
[02:30] <LaserJock> the problem is, I think, that everybody can see that there's a problem but don't know where to go to fix it
[02:30] <nixternal> no doubt
[02:31] <bimberi> the CC?
[02:31] <LaserJock> I'm guessing it could be an item for the CC
[02:31] <nixternal> when is the next CC?
[02:31] <LaserJock> but I think jdub would need to be consulted
[02:31] <nixternal> someone can put meetings on the fridge, but news is hard ;)
[02:32] <nixternal> jdub's days are limited, so it would be nice to know who is replacing him there
[02:32] <bimberi> it certainly needs a wider editorship, not sure about _all_ members though :)
[02:32] <LaserJock> it should be on the 25th
[02:32] <nixternal> sflaw has posted on there in the past
[02:32] <bimberi> planet.ubuntu.com provides that
[02:32] <LaserJock> bimberi: all members being able to post certain things, not editing at large
[02:32] <LaserJock> I really don't like planet
[02:32] <LaserJock> for some reason
[02:32] <nixternal> the planet is just developer's blogs correct?
[02:33] <LaserJock> I rather see planet folded into fridge
[02:33] <LaserJock> nixternal: I think it's open to all members
[02:33] <LaserJock> but it's a blog feed yes
[02:33] <bimberi> LaserJock: ah, kk
[02:33] <bimberi> yes, i'm under the impression its for all members
[02:34] <nixternal> AHHH
[02:34] <bimberi> Canonical is employing a "Community Manager".  Perhaps that will catalyse some change there
[02:35] <nixternal> i goto planet.ubuntu.com and i see Corey's big ol' bean with his evil smile lookin' at me
[02:35] <LaserJock> bimberi: perhaps, although I'm not sure who/when that will be
[02:36] <bimberi> yes.  applications have closed,  well the job is no longer posted
[02:36] <LaserJock> cool
[02:37] <nixternal> heh, it also seems that the planet has some language that might not be PG, especially for the youngsters.
[02:37] <nixternal> however, the youngsters, swear worse then most
[02:37] <bimberi> http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
[02:37] <nixternal> but it isn't professional
[02:37] <LaserJock> nixternal: yes, well, they are blogs
[02:37] <nixternal> derr
[02:37] <nixternal> ;)
[02:37] <bimberi> LaserJock: :)
[02:37] <LaserJock> that's why I think fridge is necessary
[02:38] <bimberi> yep, agreed.  Just needs it's tempo raised somewhat
[02:38] <bimberi> *its
[02:38] <LaserJock> yeah, and more content
[02:39] <LaserJock> I think buntudot.org's podcasts are really cool (not that I'm biased or anything)
[02:40] <LaserJock> pointers to docs (tip of the day from the desktop guides)
[02:40] <LaserJock> UWN type stuff
[02:40] <LaserJock> app of the day
[02:40] <bimberi> first i'd heard of them *makes note to configure ipodder*
[02:42] <LaserJock> what would be excellent is items that would increase the developer-> communication without being time consuming for developers and way over the head of users
[02:42] <LaserJock> developer-> user comunication that is
[02:42] <nixternal> ya, that is true laserjock
[02:42] <nixternal> i forgot about those sections of the UWN that would be pretty neat for 'new or typical' users
[02:43] <LaserJock> but who would read them?
[02:43] <LaserJock> I doubt new or even typical users are reading UWN, but I could be wrong of course
[02:44] <nixternal> oh they aren't, but getting them on a section of the fridge that would be RSS or what not
[02:44] <LaserJock> yes
[02:44] <LaserJock> I would like to be able to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu news needs
[02:44] <nixternal> ok, well then maybe the UWN is a good idea, just delivered wrong
[02:44] <LaserJock> just like I want to go to 1 URL for all my Ubuntu help needs
[02:44] <LaserJock> yes
[02:45] <nixternal> ya..it is irc.freenode.net silly
[02:45] <LaserJock> I think the UWN is good, mainly targeted towards active community members, but still very useful
[02:45] <LaserJock> and targeted towards the top as well ;-)
[02:46] <nixternal> i think that the planet is good, if used to blog "Ubuntu" stuff more then personal stuff..like blog about your Ubuntu work for the week...or maybe setup an Ubuntu blog system where "Ubuntu Members" can blog their Ubuntu achievments for the wekk
[02:47] <nixternal> then take that info/input and work it in somehow as well
[02:48] <LaserJock> well, I think you can set it to just grab a category of your blog
[02:48] <LaserJock> but I'm guess many people don't do that
[02:49] <LaserJock> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/about is interesting
[02:49] <LaserJock> I think it's a good idea that just never reached critical mass
[02:50] <nixternal> or goals
[02:51] <nixternal> the downunder even was a year ago
[02:51] <nixternal> event*
[02:51] <LaserJock> anyway, we can talk all we want
[02:51] <LaserJock> but it's just talk
[02:52] <nixternal> what can we do then? 
[02:52] <LaserJock> probably ask jdub what the future of fridge is and where it stands
[02:52] <nixternal> create a spec against something already there?  im not a developer, so i can't tell you what needs to be done, but i can tell you how i think it could rock! ;)
[02:52] <LaserJock> it could be that there is already a plan in progress that we don't know about
[02:53] <nixternal> well, maybe you should email him, as i have never gotten a response from him
[02:53] <LaserJock> did you email him more than once about it?
[02:53] <nixternal> more then 5 times
[02:53] <nixternal> i emailed him 5+ for mailing list info
[02:54] <nixternal> i emailed him letting him know i would be more then willing to help out with the fridge, my plans/future with ubuntu, and what im doing now
[02:54] <LaserJock> then I suggest it be an agenda item on the next CC, but in a very non-agressive way
[02:54] <nixternal> oh of course
[02:54] <nixternal> kind of like hey, it would be cool to get the fridge to function like this ;)
[02:55] <LaserJock> I wouldn't think even that
[02:55] <LaserJock> I would be more like, what is the current status and future of fridge as it seems it has become a bit stale and we would like to get it rocking again
[02:56] <LaserJock> I don't know
[02:56] <bimberi> um, this looks very relevant -  http://digg.com/linux_unix/Jeff_Waugh_resigns_from_Canonical_to_go_back_to_gnome
[02:56] <LaserJock> I'd hate to propose any specific changes until we know exactly wha the status and current plans are
[02:57] <LaserJock> I doubt it's only us that have seen problems lately with fridge
[02:57] <LaserJock> bimberi: yes, that's my current guess as to why the fridge hasn't been updated for a while
[02:58] <LaserJock> although there isn't neccessarily a connection there
[02:59] <LaserJock> people come and go at Canonical but we should try to make sure the community can step in if needed
[02:59] <LaserJock> maybe it already has, I have no idea
[03:00] <nixternal> well, if Ubuntu is driven by the community, then i think that the fridge should be as well..of course there are things that shouldn't, but something for the community should be done by the community
[03:00] <LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that it isn't exactly, but maybe it could be better
[03:01] <LaserJock> I have no idea who has access to editing fridge
[03:01] <LaserJock> all I see is that you can send items to fridg-devel@
[03:01] <nixternal> 2 or 3 people from experience
[03:01] <nixternal> jdub is the only one that stands out, as well as sflaw
[03:03] <LaserJock> you could always email the CC (they have a private ML) and ask if it would be appropriate to bring up at a CC meeting
[03:04] <LaserJock> I just don't want it to be a negative thing towards jdub because the guy is awesome and works so hard for Ubuntu
[03:10] <nixternal> oh w/o a doubt..i know how much he means, and i would never do that to anyone, no matter their status quo
[05:39] <nixternal> LaserJock: i emailed the CC concerning the fridge, and asked if it should be an agenda item at the next cc meeting, or that i was open to communication further via email
[05:40] <LaserJock> cool
[06:25] <nixternal> alright LaserJock, got it all setup here
[06:26] <LaserJock> nixternal: ok, so if you load emacs and then do M-x plan
[06:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: do you get anythin?
[06:29] <nixternal> ahh
[06:29] <nixternal> ok..M-x plan must explain
[06:29] <LaserJock> do you get a page with Tasks, Schedule, and Notes ?
[06:30] <nixternal> i get the basic emacs window
[06:32] <LaserJock> nixternal: you on jabber?
[06:32] <nixternal> ya
[07:05] <nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
[07:05] <nixternal> when i get on with my lappy, paste that to me ;)
[07:14] <LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure
[07:14] <RichJ> ty
[07:14] <LaserJock> np
[07:14] <RichJ> hehe
[07:14] <RichJ> i haven't had the chance to read it, but i like his ideas
[07:14] <RichJ> is there a current Help/Howto/Tutorial template for people to use when creating a wiki page?
[07:16] <LaserJock> there's the wiki guide
[07:18] <RichJ> ya, but for people who come from the forums or what not and create a page
[07:18] <RichJ> i kind of follow my own template when i do them...   i don't do the name of the page because moinmoin does it
[07:18] <LaserJock> the wiki guide doesn't do that?
[07:18] <LaserJock> is it too much?
[07:18] <RichJ> i do ==intro==, ==pre reqs==, ==install==, ==post install==, and so on
[07:19] <RichJ> im sure the wiki guide does. but i dont' think everyone coming in and creating a page does
[07:19] <LaserJock> sure
[07:20] <RichJ> so if there was a template for people to use, it might make the wiki organization easier
[07:22] <LaserJock> yeah, creating some nice doc templates
[07:22] <LaserJock> would be nice
[07:22] <RichJ> hmm
[07:23] <RichJ> i might start doing some owrk
[07:23] <RichJ> docbook templates?
[07:23] <LaserJock> no, for the wiki
[07:23] <LaserJock> like different templates for different kinds of docs
[07:24] <RichJ> ahhh
[07:24] <RichJ> i can create some templates
[07:24] <LaserJock> I"m trying to think of various types of docs
[07:24] <LaserJock> mostly they are howtos I suppose
[07:25] <RichJ> ya
[07:25] <LaserJock> but if we had a template it might help the pages be more consistent and have all the info required
[07:25] <RichJ> don't say howtos around mdke_ though...he hates um
[07:26] <LaserJock> I know
[07:26] <RichJ> there is a homepage temp, laptop testing team, and others
[07:26] <RichJ> but no howto ones
[07:26] <LaserJock> but we need doc templates for help.u.c wiki
[07:27] <LaserJock> it doesn't need spec templates and homepage templates, for instance
[07:27] <RichJ> ahhh..
[07:27] <RichJ> true
[07:27] <RichJ> well, i will look at it here in a bit and come up something and propose it to the team i guess
[07:28] <LaserJock> yeah, send something to the ML
[07:28] <RichJ> i can do that
[07:28] <LaserJock> ok, I'm off to bed
[07:28] <RichJ> i get in bed, and now im hungry
[07:28] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:28] <RichJ> alrighty, good night sir, and thanks for the emacs stuff
[07:28] <LaserJock> np
[07:44] <RichJ> jsgotangco: if you get the chance to grab the drupal theme, lemme know ;)
[08:01] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'm just finishing seting up a gateway with dnsmasq+privoxy (stripping proxy)+polipo  (caching proxy), and i'm happy to write up some docs about it - anyone think its worth it? :)
[08:02] <RichJ> i would say yes, as i have no clue wth you just said
[08:02] <RichJ> ;)
[08:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> lol.
[08:02] <Kamping_Kaiser> :)
[08:56] <mdke_> RichJ: there is a documentation template
[09:00] <jsgotangco> apparently its not well documented ;)
[09:01] <mdke_> jsgotangco: it is documented on WikiGuide/PageCreation, and appears in the list of templates whenever you try and create a page...
[09:01] <jsgotangco> im being funny ;)
[09:02] <mdke_> aha
[09:02] <jsgotangco> yeah it doesnt take a lot of work to do more templates even, moin knows if its a template or not
[09:18] <RichJ> mdke: does the documentation template need to be edited at all?
[09:18] <RichJ> is there something we can do, in order to bring it to the attention of a person who is posting to the wiki?
[10:14] <mdke> RichJ: feel free to suggest additions to the template. I can't think of anything more that can be done to bring it to people's attentions
[10:15] <RichJ> true, just wish there was something that would make it not only easier on us, but easier on the user
[10:16] <mdke> RichJ: I think it is as easy as it can be, to be honest
[10:16] <phanatic> mdke: is there a special process for asking to generate docs from rosetta?
[10:16] <mdke> phanatic: what do you mean by generate?
[10:17] <phanatic> mdke: we have a fully translated xubuntu guide, and a soon to be ready ubuntu guide translated into hungarian, and we'd like to see them on help.ubuntu.com
[10:17] <mdke> phanatic: no, there is no special process. I just generate them every month or so or whenever I have time
[10:18] <phanatic> mdke: ok, thanks. is it okay for you that i send you a note when we finish both guides?
[10:20] <mdke> phanatic: that won't really help, I can't take into account individual requests for specific languages, I just do them all at once
[10:20] <mdke> I'll do them soon I suppose.
[10:20] <mdke> nice work doing all that translation
[10:20] <phanatic> mdke: oh, okay :)
[12:32] <mpt_> "The audio manager manages everything audio." -- Ekiga help
[03:56] <mpt_> lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?
[04:04] <mpt_> lloydinho_: <mpt_ > lloydinho, did you mean to send that reply only to me?
[04:04] <lloydinho_> no.
[04:05] <lloydinho_> mpt: I hate that the doc does that automatically, I forget it all the time.
[04:05] <lloydinho_> *doc list*
[04:06] <lloydinho_> mpt_!
[04:06] <mpt_> The only Ubuntu list that works a different way, as far as I know, is ubuntu-women@
[04:06] <lloydinho_> really?
[04:06] <lloydinho_> well, I'll just resend it to the entire list then.
[04:07] <mpt_> ok, thanks
[04:08] <lloydinho_> np. It's just troublesome that doing a reply requires conscious thought to make sure that it ends up in the right place... ;-)
[04:10] <mdke> conscious thought = bad
[04:11] <mpt_> All e-mail programs suck
[04:11] <mpt_> If I was designing an e-mail program, it would have "Reply to Author", "Reply to List", and "Reply to All" togglebuttons in the composition window itself
[04:12] <jjesse> squirell webmail has that
[04:12] <jjesse> so when i want to reply to the list I simply click on "reply to list" and it does that
[04:13] <mpt_> cool
[04:14] <mdke> so what is the position with the doc-commits list? is it officially not working?
[04:15] <jjesse> mdke: i havent' received any emails about the packaging guid changes
[04:17] <mdke> me neither
[04:23] <nixternal> well hello there everyone ;)
[04:25] <jjesse> hiya nixternal
[04:28] <nixternal> hiya jjesse
[04:49] <mdke> does anyone know how I get the text after the image to start again from underneath the image in http://www.mdke.org/blog/HelpMenu.html ??
[04:56] <mpt_> http://www.alia.org.uk/imastecha/2003/10/newbie-20031026-04b.jpg
[04:57] <mdke> :)
[04:57] <mdke> mpt_: you will clearly know the answer to my question
[04:57] <mdke> any ideas?
[04:57] <mpt_> Er, I wasn't posting that in reference to anyone in particular
[04:57] <mpt_> honest!
[04:58] <mpt_> I just happened across it while looking for an icon for the "New to Ubuntu 6.10?" help category :-)
[04:59] <mpt_> mdke, the easy way is to start the next paragraph with <p style="clear: both;">
[05:00] <mpt_> A more elegant way would be to have something like this in your style sheet:
[05:00] <mpt_> img {display: block;}
[05:00] <mpt_> img.icon {display: inline;}
[05:00] <mpt_> then use <img class="icon"...> for smileys and the like
[05:01] <mpt_> though, if you ever do end up on Planet Ubuntu, the easy solution would survive the syndication, while the elegant way would not
[05:01] <mdke> two votes for the easy way
[05:02] <mdke> thanks
[05:02] <mpt_> BTW, for that image appropriate alt text would be alt="a 'System Documentation' item, then an 'Online Documentation' item, then a 'Community Support' item, then a 'Commercial Support' item, and finally an 'Ubuntu Book Excerpt' item."
[05:03] <mdke> blimey
[05:04] <mpt_> so that if the image is unavailable for whatever reason I can understand what you're talking about
[05:07] <mdke> yeah, I see
[05:08] <mpt_> So, three items in the menu, you think? :-)
[05:11] <mdke> your view?
[05:11] <mdke> I don't really mind how many items, as long as they are coherent
[05:11] <mpt_> I'd be delighted with 4 for Edgy
[05:11] <mpt_> and 3 for Funky
[05:12] <mpt_> (if the linking from yelp search to help.ubuntu.com search can be implemented by then)
[05:12] <mpt_> but ultimately I'd be aiming for 1 :-)
[05:13] <mdke> well, the system documentation can certainly refer to help.ubuntu.com on the front page, that takes it down to 3 for Edgy
[05:13] <mdke> it doesn't need to be completely integrated
[05:14] <newz2000> mdke: ping me when you have a moment... wanted your (and other doc team members') opinion on something.
[05:15] <mpt_> Hi newz2000, we were just discussing the possibility of sprucing up the http://www.ubuntu.com/support pages
[05:15] <newz2000> That's a good idea
[05:15] <mpt_> How should we submit such a redesign? As a bug report with Moin markup attached?
[05:16] <newz2000> Yeah, that works fine
[05:16] <mpt_> ok
[05:16] <mpt_> Is the top-level "Support" heading =Support=, or ==Support==?
[05:16] <newz2000> I probably want to get that aproved by ops... that's kind of the an important page to canonical
[05:17] <mpt_> understood
[05:17] <newz2000> = Support =
[05:17] <mpt_> newz2000, thanks
[05:17] <mdke> newz2000: sure
[05:18] <newz2000> Since we've got at least three matt's here I guess we're capable of discussing this... :D
[05:18] <mpt_> The Matt Committee will now come to order
[05:18] <mdke> mpt_: something people have been doing for submitting spruced up web pages is to work on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website and subpages
[05:18] <newz2000> Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website
[05:19] <newz2000> What are your thoughts on that?
[05:19] <mdke> newz2000: sounds good. I don't think I understand the question
[05:19] <mpt_> What do they want to put on such a site?
[05:20] <newz2000> My first thought was, "Why don't they just use wiki.ubuntu.com?"
[05:20] <mdke> ah. I see. No, I think local websites are absolutely essential
[05:20] <mdke> most local teams have them already
[05:21] <mdke> http://ubuntu-it.org/ (then replace "it" with fr, nl, be, whatever)
[05:21] <newz2000> yeah
[05:22] <newz2000> Now I could easily redirect www.ubuntu-ve.org to the wiki as well.
[05:22] <newz2000> But the question is, where does the content fit best
[05:23] <mpt_> Community, perhaps
[05:23] <mdke> are you suggesting redirecting all local teams websites and support sites to the wiki?
[05:23] <mdke> I don't think I'm following very well
[05:24] <newz2000> Sorry for not being clear...
[05:25] <newz2000> Is there any reason not to put the loco team's content in the wiki and redirect to it from their home page, or does that type of content not fit well with the purpose of the wiki?
[05:27] <mdke> well, all existing local teams have their own websites, with forums, documentation, news etc. I think the same should be available to all new ones
[05:27] <newz2000> Good point
[05:27] <mdke> the wiki is generally used for community coordination, but not presentation
[05:27] <mdke> so teams work out specs on it and so on, but a website is very useful for marketing ubuntu in a particular country/language
[05:27] <newz2000> That's true.
[05:28] <newz2000> And I guess they may want to translate the navigation into their local language
[05:28] <mdke> mpt_: most local teams provide exactly the same resources that the international Ubuntu community provides: information about Ubuntu, news, documentation, forum, mailing list, planet, etc
[05:29] <mpt_> So what I'm thinking is that in ten years when Canonical has become a giant company with national offices, it decides "oh, we actually need to put professional stuff on these sites, sorry" ...
[05:30] <newz2000> mpt_ I don't see that really happening
[05:30] <mpt_> so maybe there's a useful distinction between loco teams, and "official" stuff
[05:30] <mdke> canonical != Ubuntu
[05:30] <mdke> local teams are completely community run
[05:30] <mpt_> I know
[05:30] <mpt_> but ubuntu.com isn't community-run
[05:31] <newz2000> I keep trying to phrase this so as not to sound lazy... I'm thinking more on eficiency...
[05:31] <newz2000> I've got two teams who just want a moin wiki that uses the ubuntu theme.
[05:32] <newz2000> And i get the impression they want me to manage their site for them. :-] 
[05:32] <mdke> ok. I think it depends what they want to do with it
[05:32] <mdke> if it is team coordination, they should use the main wiki
[05:33] <mdke> if documentation, it should be their choice, but the administration and theming is also up to them
[05:33] <mpt_> Sorry, I naturally think of edge cases
[05:33] <mdke> many existing teams can help with that
[05:33] <mpt_> newz2000, I would be inclined to say "you're welcome to use wiki.ubuntu.com" and leave it at that
[05:33] <mdke> that's basically the existing system, anyway
[05:34] <newz2000> Well, I'm not going to dictate what they have to do... I'm thinking along the lines of,
[05:34] <mpt_> newz2000, another potential problem is if some loco has a (petty but) bitter disagreement and splits in two, then both subgroups try to claim ownership of the site you've given them
[05:34] <newz2000> "I'm happy to give you the theme and setup moin on the server so that you can use it on your site. You'll have to admin it and manage it. You can also just put a redirect to your loco's team area on the main wiki i fyou like."
[05:35] <newz2000> mpt_ we give the site for free... that dispute is easy to resolve I think.
[05:35] <newz2000> But I wouldn't want to give them that message if the wiki.ubuntu.com is an inapropriate place to put loco team websites.
[05:36] <newz2000> I know you guys are trying to get stuff organized and I'd hate to be working against you
[05:36] <mdke> newz2000: that sounds right. I would add that for team management the main wiki is appropriate
[05:37] <mdke> newz2000: note that there is a mailing list and irc channel for discussing loco stuff, the docteam doesn't really work with them. #ubuntu-locoteams and loco-contacts@
[05:37] <nixternal> [10:18]  <newz2000> Several loco teams have signed up for hosting and basically want to set up their own wiki that looks like the ubuntu website
[05:38] <nixternal> ;)
[05:38] <nixternal> hiya newz2000
[05:38] <newz2000> nixternal: Hi. Yes, that's exactly what I'm disscussing
[05:38] <nixternal> sweet!
[05:38] <mdke> nixternal: what is the wiki to be used for?
[05:38] <nixternal> mdke: http://chi.ubuntu-us.org   Chicago LoCo website
[05:39] <nixternal> i would like the site to mimic ubuntu.com
[05:39] <mdke> well, for a website, I think granting hosting is entirely appropriate. It's team management that should stay on the wiki
[05:39] <mdke> nixternal: eh? mimic ubuntu.com? People in Chicago already know English...
[05:40] <mdke> why overlap?
[05:40] <nixternal> look the same as
[05:40] <nixternal> not word for word
[05:40] <mdke> well, don't overlap... otherwise it will get confusing
[05:40] <newz2000> do you want some stuff on your wiki that would make it inapropriate for inclusion in the regular wiki?
[05:41] <nixternal> no
[05:41] <newz2000> nixternal: btw, I'm glad your here to help out with this conversation... I've got one other guy who's asked for exactly the same setup
[05:41] <nixternal> that is why i have been contemplating using drupal instead, and do all wiki stuff under /ChicagoTeam if necessary
[05:41] <mdke> bear in mind that the regular wiki is a community area, it is not for websites...
[05:42] <mdke> so where a team wishes to make a website, regardless of the software they want to use, the regular wiki is unlikely to be appropriate
[05:42] <nixternal> truthfully, the only thing i want on chicago loco site is a nice looking front page, small forums section, and possibly some blog space for the members
[05:42] <newz2000> nixternal: how about this...
[05:42] <nixternal> which i can do with drupal
[05:42] <newz2000> for the homepage and forums, use the webhosting space and for wiki type stuff redirect to the wiki.
[05:43] <newz2000> w.u.c/ChicagoGroup
[05:43] <nixternal> thats what i plan on doing newz2000, because i worked with MoinMoin here and it is definately to much for what we need
[05:43] <newz2000> I was just going to say that managing moin can be a chore
[05:44] <mdke> that's sensible, but if somebody wants to use moinmoin as a CMS for their homepage, are we going to say no just because it is wiki software?
[05:44] <nixternal> im just interested in having a similar layout & design as ubuntu.com. so as to make the team look "official" in a way
[05:44] <newz2000> mdke: I'm not going to say no, I'll give them what they need to do it.
[05:44] <newz2000> I just think that moin can be a bit of chore to setup and maintain (especially theme stuff)
[05:45] <nixternal> it is more then a chore
[05:45] <nixternal> i had a heck of time with it ;)
[05:45] <mdke> that makes perfect sense
[05:45] <mdke> nixternal: you can achieve the similar layout with any cms you like :)
[05:46] <nixternal> what would be nice, is to publish the theme used for ubuntu.com, moinmoin and drupal if possible..there are a couple of sites that look similar to ubuntu.com that are loco teams, and getting the theme has proved difficult
[05:46] <mdke> we can do that. In the past I've hosted them at ubuntu-it.org
[05:47] <mdke> for locoteams who want to use em
[05:47] <nixternal> that would be great
[05:48] <newz2000> mdke: Can you give an example of what you think is "crossing the line" for a loco team who is using the wiki as their website?
[05:48] <newz2000> As in, "you really need to host this outside of the wiki"
[05:49] <nixternal> i would say hosting pictures and what not of all their events might be a little to much (im sure you know where im going with it)
[05:50] <mdke> newz2000:I think loco websites which are aimed at the general public can be done outside the wiki (if the local team wishes to do so), whereas things like team coordination, internal things, are best done on the wiki (especially if in English) because others can share those ideas.
[05:51] <newz2000> ok, so, "Here's where we meet, our next meeting is .... minutes from last meetings are ..." is all good stuff for wiki based team sites
[05:51] <newz2000> wiki.ubuntu.com that is
[05:52] <mdke> right, in particular English teams
[05:53] <mdke> that's broadly the current system, as far as I can see
[05:53] <newz2000> ok. So for non-english sites you'd encourage them to have their own wiki?
[05:54] <mdke> I don't think it matters much
[05:54] <mdke> we do it on our wiki for the italian team
[05:54] <mdke> but our wiki is also used for documentation, so it gets plenty of use
[05:55] <newz2000> ok. I think I'm getting the concept straight in my mind.
[05:56] <mdke> newz2000: one more thing to bear in mind is that european teams can get hosting from a non-canonical source, the french and german teams have some servers which they offer for use
[05:56] <mdke> that is incredibly badly documented, I'm afraid
[05:56] <newz2000> Are those different than my servers?
[05:56] <mdke> yes
[05:56] <mdke> I meant "non-Canonical" :)
[05:56] <newz2000> Wow... we have them all over the place.
[05:57] <newz2000> I see
[05:57] <newz2000> Do you happen to know if thats something related to smurf's stuff?
[05:58] <mdke> smurf is one of the admins, but it is not related to his server, no
[05:59] <newz2000> ok. That's good to know.
[05:59] <mdke> they are servers which the french team was given
[06:00] <newz2000> mdke: changing subjects, I put your style sheet in place and it broke the site. I quickly switched it out.
[06:00] <newz2000> The logo disappeared and there was a whit bar going across the top
[06:01] <newz2000> (white, not whit)
[06:01] <newz2000> Do you want to see it? I can put it in again for a moment if you like.
[06:02] <mdke> newz2000: what site?
[06:02] <newz2000> wiki.ubuntu.com
[06:03] <mdke> newz2000: should have been help.ubuntu.com/community
[06:03] <newz2000> Gr... I should never trust my memory
[06:03] <newz2000> let me try that again then. :-] 
[06:04] <mdke> it was just a one line change to #message, if I recall correctly
[06:04] <newz2000> That's what I thought you said. Before I did it I diffed and found lots of changes.
[06:05] <newz2000> Interesting...
[06:05] <newz2000> that site isn't set up like the other wikis.
[06:06] <mdke> I haven't seen the setup
[06:06] <newz2000> well, actually, I'm wrong.
[06:07] <newz2000> It is setup just like all the other wikis, however unlike the other wikis which live in the root folder, this one is in a subfolder.
[06:07] <newz2000> Therefore I expected the wiki stuff to also be in that subfolder.
[06:09] <newz2000> mdke: ok, its done.
[06:09] <mdke> newz2000: thanks very much
[06:09] <newz2000> no prob.
[06:09] <mdke> nixternal: that was a request of yours to make the popups smaller, iirc
[06:10] <nixternal> which popups?
[06:11] <newz2000> brb
[06:11] <mdke> on the help wiki, those blue boxes that Moin uses to send you messages
[06:11] <nixternal> they are a tad bit large yes
[06:12] <mdke> now they should be better
[06:12] <nixternal> ohhh..ya, up top
[06:12] <nixternal> awesome
[06:13] <nixternal> the after edit, redirect messages up top look great now
[06:13] <nixternal> hiya LaserJock
[06:14] <nixternal> btw, Muse and EmacsWiki aren't friends..i had to totally change the setup for the lappy...now i just need to figure out how to save it as .html and not .muse when i publish it
[06:14] <newz2000> I did some experimentation with that message on the bzr site... (I too found it anoying)
[06:14] <newz2000> http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion?action=show&redirect=BzrSvn
[06:15] <newz2000> I had to sneak a few easter eggs in... if you click "clear message" it just hides the box, it doesn't refresh the page.
[06:15] <newz2000> (unless you have javascript turned off... then you get the old behavior)
[06:15] <nixternal> now that is sweet
[06:15] <newz2000> Its still got one minor bug in it (which I'm fixing now)
[06:16] <newz2000> Some of the other links on the page get ruined
[06:18] <mdke> nice effect
[06:19] <newz2000> If it doesn't interfere with usability its fun to have a little eye candy now and then
[06:19] <LaserJock> nixternal: this the relevent part of my .emacs: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18789
[06:20] <mdke> newz2000: absolutely, sometimes improves usability :)
[06:21] <nixternal> ty LaserJock
[06:46] <jjesse> mdke; just received notification about r3183 from doc-commits
[06:48] <LaserJock> yeah
[06:48] <LaserJock> interesting
[06:48] <LaserJock> perhaps I need to stop late-night commit messages
[06:58] <lloydinho_> newz2000: Still around?
[06:58] <newz2000> lloydinho_ yes
[06:58] <lloydinho_> I was just looking at the Community support subpage on ubuntu.com
[06:59] <lloydinho_> In the Ubuntu Website Section - there's a link which doesn't lead anywhere.
[06:59] <lloydinho_> "support/documentation project documentation"
[06:59] <lloydinho_> I guess it's a MoinMoin thing.
[06:59] <mpt_> newz2000, while you're there, it's not appropriate for /support to link to wiki.ubuntu.com any more
[06:59] <mpt_> since all the help stuff is on help.ubuntu.com
[07:00] <newz2000> mpt_: ok, I can fix that quickly. lloydinho_ can you send me a link to the page... I'm not seeing it
[07:00] <mpt_> thanks newz2000 
[07:01] <lloydinho_> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/free - all the way down at the bottom
[07:01] <newz2000> gotcha
[07:01] <lloydinho_> thanks! ;-)
[07:01] <newz2000> let me make a note... Right now I'm updating FAQ
[07:03] <newz2000> Linking to attachments is giving me a fit
[07:04] <newz2000> what am I doing wrong? [attachment:support/faq/ShipIt+Generic+Customs+Letter+Chinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 
[07:04] <mpt_> I didn't know you could do that in Moin
[07:06] <newz2000> You can do it in 1.5
[07:06] <newz2000> If you use the gui it even has an nice little dialog that creates the link for you from a list of attachments
[07:06] <newz2000> and http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnActions/AttachFile implies you can do it in older versions too
[07:07] <LaserJock> lol, and Corey's patch came in on -commits after mine, weird
[07:07] <newz2000> To make it harder, 5 times out of 6, the text box cuts off my content mid-way.
[07:08] <mpt_> newz2000, I know about attachment:filename, but not about [attachment:filename link text] 
[07:08] <mpt_> Have you used that syntax before?
[07:08] <newz2000> oh
[07:08] <newz2000> I just assumed it would work the way other links work.
[07:10] <mpt_> Past 5am, time for sleep...
[07:11] <LaserJock> yikes
[07:18] <newz2000> Hmm... my only problem seems to have been spaces in the file name. This works: [attachment:CustomsChinese.pdf Chinese (Simplified)] 
[07:21] <jjesse> mdke: looks like doc-committs is catching up. saw reviesion 3181 come across
[07:21] <nixternal> man, i just realize that wiht my marinenet account for the military, i can do all the of the linux LPI courses and what not for free
[07:21] <nixternal> there is just one problem
[07:21] <jjesse> that's nice, you should get the ubuntu certification after you get lpi :)
[07:22] <nixternal> This is an SSL secure site. You are either trying to access this site with a browser using less than 128 bit encryption or not using HTTPS.
[07:46] <nixternal> LaserJock: i heard back from C. Watson as well concerning the fridge
[07:46] <LaserJock> yeah?
[07:46] <nixternal> no need for it at the CC, and to contact the fridge-dev
[07:46] <nixternal> or the fridge-admin..the emal address that is on the fridge
[07:47] <LaserJock> ok
[07:47] <LaserJock> hmm
[07:47] <nixternal> installin' emacs, muse-el, planner-el, remember-el on this computer now
[07:47] <nixternal> ;)
[07:47] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:48] <nixternal> im addicted
[07:48] <nixternal> i am definately using that for note takin' at the uni
[08:35] <mdke> jjesse: yes, I bugged the admins and it looks like they fixed it
[08:36] <mdke> or not :)
[08:37] <LaserJock> hehe
[08:43] <LaserJock> mdke: who is Spads?
[08:43] <mdke> his irc name says "I'm a bird, I'm a board, I'm a flying horse!"
[08:44] <mdke> in reality, he is an admin
[08:44] <LaserJock> LP?
[08:45] <mdke> https://launchpad.net/people/nick-zork
[08:45] <LaserJock> ah cool
[08:46] <LaserJock> so he joins elmo and znarl with being contantly bugged by people :-)
[08:47] <mdke> right
[08:51] <nixternal> LaserJock: watch this!!!
[08:52] <nixternal> lol
[08:52] <nixternal> ^^ that is irc emacs style
[08:52] <jjesse> what are we supposed to watch
[08:52] <jjesse> ?
[08:52] <nixternal> however, i can't get it to send to the channel
[08:52] <crimsun> you /are/ sending to the channel.
[08:52] <nixternal> ahh, i bet it hasn't syncd yet, thats why
[08:53] <crimsun> /msg #ubuntu-doc like this.
[08:53] <crimsun> like this.
[08:53] <RichJ> like this
[08:53] <nixternal> gotta fix that
[08:54] <RichJ> there is a lot that needs to be tweaked
[08:55] <LaserJock> yeah, I still user irssi for IRC
[08:56] <nixternal> i use konversation still...but..if the new version isn't to my liking, im done with it
[08:56] <RichJ> i gotta figure out how to switch