[12:12] <manicka> it's a nice start to better integration down the road
[12:52] <Madpilot> Burgwork, is random punning in Planet Ubuntu posts allowed, or am I going to have to hit you next time I see you?
[12:54] <Burgwork> well, mdke_ did offer it up
[12:59] <nixternal_> cover your eyes
[01:02] <LaserJock> Burgwork: hahahahahaha
[01:02] <LaserJock> I think that's the funniest thing I've seen today
[01:05] <Burgwork> I try
[01:34] <Madpilot> I see that crackish "UnifiedUbuntuBranding" page is still being worked on... still don't see the point...
[01:46] <nixternal> ya I had an epiphony once, but Konqi destroyed it!
[02:31] <mpt> Madpilot, wow. Just, wow.
[02:31] <Madpilot> mpt, what, the branding thing?
[02:31] <Madpilot> or Burgwork's awful puns?
[02:32] <mpt> The branding thing
[02:32] <Madpilot> OS/g and OS/k... OS/WTF?
[02:32] <mpt> He seems to be under the delusion that "Gnome" is a non-ridiculous brand name
[02:33] <Madpilot> nevermind that Canonical would have a polite letter from Apple's lawyers...
[02:33] <mpt> What, for OS/whatever?
[02:33] <mpt> Why?
[02:33] <mpt> You mean IBM's?
[02:33] <Madpilot> probably both :)
[02:34] <mpt> After Apple released Mac OS 8.6, they released Mac OS 9, and got a letter from some company's lawyers about some other OS called "OS 9"
[02:35] <mpt> Anyway, the underlying logical flaw in that whole page is the clause "Ubuntu lacks a published marketing plan".
[02:36] <mpt> Which I guess is an understandable mistake
[02:36] <mpt> so I shouldn't be too harsh :-)
[03:04] <bimberi> mpt: i don't understand, are you saying there _is_ a "published marketing plan"?
[03:28] <mpt> bimberi, no, it's a logical flaw, not a factual one. Volunteer marketing (though it is often more effective than professional marketing) usually doesn't require a plan, and the kind of marketing that companies do usually involves a plan that isn't published.
[03:35] <bimberi> mpt: ok, undersood.  So any thoughts on whether ubuntu's volunteer marketing requires a plan?
[03:35] <bimberi> *understood
[03:45] <mpt> bimberi, not really, my brain is quite full enough at the moment without thinking about marketing :-)
[03:45] <bimberi> mpt: chicken! ;-)
[03:45] <mpt> (Though I will volunteer the suggestion that the marketing team should spend less time debating a design for SpreadUbuntu, and more time on actual marketing)
[03:46] <Madpilot> heh
[03:48] <mpt> uh oh
[03:49] <mpt> Can someone on Dapper, and someone on Edgy, please try opening Yelp and choosing "Help" > "Get Help Online...", and telling me whether you get a 404?
[03:54] <bimberi> mpt: (Dapper) no 404, opens https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+sources/yelp/+gethelp
[03:54] <mpt> weird
[03:54] <mpt> I'm on Dapper and I get https://launchpad.net/distros///+sources/yelp/+gethelp
[04:02] <mpt> reported bug 54212
[04:02] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 54212 in launchpad-integration ""Get Help Online" in Yelp goes to non-existent page" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54212
[04:40] <jsgotangco> mpt: looks fixed already
[04:40] <jsgotangco> oh wait
[04:40] <jsgotangco> hhe
[04:40] <jsgotangco> crap ignore me
[04:52] <Madpilot> odd... X just froze on me, or somethign did, anyway
[04:56] <Burgundavia> Madpilot: not here either
[08:52] <mdke_> morning
[08:53] <robitaille> hi mdke_ 
[09:07] <mdke_> manicka: hi. Yes, he got back to me and we discussed a few things
[09:07] <mdke_> but as for forming a team, we agreed to wait until I'd put some thoughts down
[09:08] <manicka> ah ok. Still lots more to work out
[09:08] <manicka> I'd like the doc-team to head up that team but that may be a sticking point
[09:09] <mdke_> I don't think it is a sticking point. I'd like the team to be a subteam of the UDSF team and of the wiki team
[09:09] <mdke_> so some people have already been interested in it?
[09:10] <manicka> from what KB tells me, yes
[09:10] <mdke_> ah good, you had a discussion with him?
[09:10] <manicka> he thinks Andrew Zajac and Travis Newman will be interested from the forums
[09:11] <manicka> we had a lengthy chat yes
[09:11] <manicka> our current falling out makes communication difficult though
[09:11] <mdke_> ah
[09:12] <manicka> he also mentioned some other forum members as being interested
[09:12] <manicka> the only sticking point for me would be working as a subset of udsf... wiki team, no problems
[09:13] <manicka> but I'll just have to work with that I guess
[09:13] <manicka> if it comes to bear
[09:13] <mdke_> the whole point would be as a bridge between the two initiatives
[09:13] <manicka> yes, i know
[09:14] <manicka> but as i have no interest in the udsf at this point it will be a challenging role for me
[09:14] <manicka> but workable
[09:14] <jsgotangco> \0/ GO MANICKA \0/
[09:14] <mdke_> I'm sure it will be fine
[09:16] <manicka> as long as i can see a long term goal of integration with the wiki I can work with it
[09:16] <Madpilot> we talking about combining the UDSF's wiki & the official one?
[09:16] <mdke_> Madpilot: no.
[09:16] <manicka> no
[09:17] <mdke_> the idea is simply to set up a team which can integrate some material from the forum/UDSF onto the help wiki
[09:17] <Madpilot> ah, OK
[09:18] <manicka> I'm more interested in what happens after that task is completed, but that can wait for another day
[09:18] <mdke> it's not really a task that gets completed, I wouldn't have thought. material is always being added to the forum, and the help wiki always needs improvement :)
[09:19] <manicka> yes, agreed
[09:19] <mdke> I'd like to move forward with some ideas about improving the help wiki too.
[09:20] <manicka> i guess i meant after the bulk of the porting is done of existing material. the teams focus would then be on keeping the movement of info from the forums to the wiki
[09:20] <manicka> and improving the wiki :)
[09:20] <manicka> I really like the work that has been done in the last 6 months
[09:20] <mdke> right.
[09:21] <mdke> if you have any ideas about how the wiki looks right now and how to improve it, mail them to the list
[09:21] <manicka> will do
[09:21] <manicka> ok
[04:52] <mhz> hy all
[04:52] <mhz> I had to stop by beacuse I am kind of clueless about this:
[04:53] <mhz> Why Edubuntu Handbook is not using an official repo?
[04:54] <mhz> I know Susan mentioned during last EHB meeting that everytime there was a meeting, domeone from DocTeam would give diff version opinions "Yes, you should use official repo" /  "No, you should not use official repo"
[04:54] <mhz> The reason I am asking here instead of emailng Susan is that next EHB meeting starts in 5 minutes
[04:55] <mhz> so I doubt she'll have time to answer me
[05:25] <pygi> mdke_, poke
[05:25] <mdke_> mhz: we're told that the idea is for the handbook to use the docteam repo
[05:25] <mdke_> pygi: pink
[05:25] <pygi> we WILL USE docteam repo :P
[05:26] <pygi> I hoped I made it clear in 10000001 time (the number of time I was explaining that :P)
[05:26] <mdke_> mhz: ^^
[05:26] <pygi> mdke_, why not being in meeting? :P
[05:27] <mdke_> pygi: I'm at work
[05:27] <mhz> okis
[05:27] <pygi> oh,oki, sorry then :)
[06:48] <Burgwork> mdke_, you know how sabdfl raised the idea of a doc team sprint last cycle? shall we do that this cycle, for the book integration?
[07:01] <mdke_> Burgwork: might be a nice idea. Not specifically for book integration I think, but there must be plenty of things. Wiki integration, help system organisation, etc
[07:01] <mdke_> gtg home now
[07:02] <Burgwork> mdke_, absolutely, but the book is a big item
[07:03] <LaserJock> have we decided what we want to do with the book?
[07:03] <LaserJock> just merge stuff together?
[07:03] <LaserJock> do we need more than the excerpts?
[07:04] <Burgwork> I would just merge
[08:09] <mdke_> Burgwork: I wonder actually how much merging is going to be appropriate. After all, we know that it's written with a totally different style, and much of the material is there already. We should definitely take a look though
[08:12] <mvirkkil> Does Andreas Lloyd hang out here?
[08:12] <mdke_> mvirkkil: yeah he does sometimes.
[08:12] <mvirkkil> mdke_: What's his nick?
[08:12] <mdke_> lloydino or something similar, best to check launchpad
[08:12] <mdke_> ah
[08:12] <mdke_> lloydinho
[08:13] <mdke_> mvirkkil: how's it going? got some book2moin going at all?
[08:14] <Burgwork> mdke_, yep, but there are a lot of holes we could patch with it
[08:14] <mvirkkil> mdke_: I've fixed the bug you found, but I haven't made any real progress for a while. I'm going to be doing something of a "sprint" next week starting somewhere around tuesday or wednesday.
[08:14] <jjesse> did the wiki get a big update or something?
[08:15] <jjesse> using the kubuntu theme it looks like half the pages didn't load
[08:15] <mvirkkil> mdke_: And continuing until sunday.
[08:15] <mdke_> mvirkkil: yay!
[08:15] <mdke_> jjesse: not that I heard about
[08:15] <mdke_> mvirkkil: if you want someone to test anything something in the middle of your sprint, lemme know :)
[08:16] <mdke_> mvirkkil: especially if you have some book action
[08:16] <mvirkkil> mdke_: As it turns out I've been one of the programmer for organizing http://www.assembly.org/2006/ 
[08:16] <mvirkkil> mdke_: The xref stuff is _extremely_ complicated to get right.
[08:16] <mdke_> yeah
[08:17] <mdke_> i can imagine
[08:17] <mvirkkil> mdke_: I think I have an idea for solving it. I'm hoping that the project would be feature complete by sunday next week (1.5 weeks from now).
[08:17] <mvirkkil> mdke_: So that I could simply be fixing bugs and adding documentation.
[08:18] <mvirkkil> mdke_: and unit tests.
[08:18] <mdke_> mvirkkil: good luck, and if I can help, let me know
[08:20] <mvirkkil> mdke_: Thanks :) I'll probably be actively pestering people to try stuff out next week :)
[08:21] <mvirkkil> mdke_: I have a week off from my real job, so I'll hopefully have more energy to concentrate on this.
[09:38] <Burgwork> lloydinho, mvirkkil was looking for you
[09:57] <jjesse> wow the wiki is running sloooooooooowwwwwww for me
[10:00] <lloydinho> yeah, I've given up on it completely for tonight...
[10:01] <lloydinho> hey LaserJock, you here?
[10:01] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:02] <lloydinho> I've been gathering the various "Contribute" stuff off the wiki, and hope to a draft of the Contribute article tomorrow..
[10:02] <lloydinho> Is there anything special I should take into consideration about this?
[10:03] <lloydinho> *to do a draft*
[10:04] <LaserJock> I'm guessing not
[10:04] <lloydinho> okay. Well, my plan was this:
[10:04] <lloydinho> I do a rough first draft.
[10:04] <lloydinho> You have a look at it and add/change some stuff.
[10:05] <lloydinho> Then we go over it together in Gobby and iron out the creases.
[10:05] <LaserJock> sure
[10:05] <lloydinho> Goody!
[10:05] <LaserJock> I'm thinking we want to keep it simple with an overview of what contributing means and areas that people can contribute too
[10:06] <lloydinho> yeah, are you familiar with the HelpingUbuntu wiki page?
[10:07] <LaserJock> little bit, let me pull it up
[10:07] <Burgwork> lloydinho, are you looking at merging the /community/contribute page with the HelpingUbuntu page?
[10:08] <Burgwork> lloydinho_, are you looking at merging the /community/contribute page with the HelpingUbuntu page?
[10:08] <Burgwork> (figured you might have missed it)
[10:09] <LaserJock> we are looking at creating a "Contributing to Ubuntu" article to go in yelp
[10:09] <LaserJock> and khelpcenter if we can get it to work
[10:09] <Burgwork> ah
[10:09] <LaserJock> as a top level doc that would have the Packaging Guide in it
[10:09] <lloydinho__> that is so strange.
[10:10] <Burgwork> can you look at the website as well?
[10:10] <lloydinho__> I don't know why Xchat keeps on crashing on me..
[10:10] <Burgwork> it only make sense that all three are the same
[10:10] <LaserJock> yeah, I've seen the website and the wiki
[10:10] <Burgwork> ultimately, I want the wiki page to die
[10:11] <Burgwork> redirect to the community/participate page
[10:11] <LaserJock> yeah, there really isn't a reason to have it on the wiki
[10:11] <lloydinho__> LaserJock: I'm sorry I zoned out for a bit there - did I miss anything?
[10:11] <LaserJock> just Burgwork ;-)
[10:11] <lloydinho__> oh, hi Burgwork! :-)
[10:12] <Burgwork> Burgwork ultimately, I want the wiki page to die
[10:12] <Burgwork> Burgwork redirect to the community/participate page
[10:12] <lloydinho> so we want all the contribute stuff centralized, yes?
[10:12] <lloydinho> sounds good
[10:13] <Burgwork> yes
[10:13] <LaserJock> yes, we seem to send mixed messages too often
[10:13] <LaserJock> people fine more than one source for the same information, and there aren't always the same
[10:13] <LaserJock> in fact, they are usually don't have the same content
[10:14] <Burgwork> yep
[10:14] <Burgwork> the webpage is slowly getting the love it needs
[10:14] <lloydinho> I've been reading all the different teams' Contribute/Get Involved sections, and they all have different ways of approaching the new contributors...
[10:14] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:14] <LaserJock> it would be nice if each team had a page (that was consistent)
[10:14] <lloydinho> For instance, the Artwork team has an open Launchpad team, and asks people to register there and for the mailing list as the first thing.
[10:14] <LaserJock> where they could put info
[10:15] <Burgwork> there should be a secondary landing page for each team
[10:15] <Burgwork> that page should be on the wiki
[10:15] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:15] <LaserJock> you sort of need to have one page that gives the reader enough info to decide if they want to pursue further
[10:16] <Burgwork> that is actually the harder part of the job
[10:16] <Burgwork> as you need to interface with each team and get them to create taht page
[10:16] <Burgwork> that is what HelpingUbuntu is supposed to be about
[10:16] <lloydinho> Yes. Can we do a standard template for team pages that will make it easy for visitors to read and compare teams?
[10:16] <Burgwork> sure
[10:16] <LaserJock> Burgwork: or should we get info from teams and make the pages ourselves?
[10:16] <lloydinho> (and will the teams be willing to use it?)
[10:17] <Burgwork> either
[10:17] <Burgwork> I don't think teams would mind, as long as we give lots of warning and get good feedback
[10:18] <lloydinho> well, I suppose if we make a template, we will need to fit the various team data into that, but it might be better to let the teams do that themselves..
[10:18] <lloydinho> It might be an opportunity for them to reflect on how they welcome new contributors.
[10:19] <lloydinho> And I'm still curious about how Launchpad will figure in all of this, since there are also LP team pages to consider..
[10:19] <Burgwork> let create the template, move one team over (say, the doc team) and invite people to give comments
[10:19] <Burgwork> the LP pages should simply have a link to the wiki
[10:21] <lloydinho> Right, and a one-paragraph presentation of the team (preferably the same paragraph that is the first part of the wiki page)
[10:21] <lloydinho> I think that would be a good solution.
[10:21] <Burgwork> hey pygi 
[10:21] <lloydinho> Hi pygi
[10:21] <Burgwork> intro, contact, current projects
[10:21] <pygi> hey both :)
[10:22] <pygi> how are you Burgwork ?
[10:22] <LaserJock> yeah, lloydinho have you looked at the MOTU
[10:22] <Burgwork> not bad, busy
[10:22] <LaserJock> we have been doing a lot lately with working with contibutors
[10:23] <lloydinho_> gah!
[10:25] <lloydinho_> Burgwork: So, once the wiki stops being so dreadfully slow, we can try making that template.
[10:26] <Burgwork> sounds good
[10:26] <lloydinho_> Should there be a section on what one should do to qualify as a member of the team? In general or in Launchpad?
[10:27] <LaserJock> at some point there needs to be something
[10:27] <LaserJock> but usually you don't need to be a member of the team to contribute
[10:27] <LaserJock> so they shouldn't have to worry too much about that initially
[10:28] <lloydinho_> No, I guess not.
[10:28] <LaserJock> but yeah, figuring out what it takes is probably pretty important at some point
[10:29] <lloydinho_> But when I first started out, I looked at the various teams in launchpad, and didn't know whether I had to be a member or not to contribute - so it'll probably need to be addressed somewhere
[10:29] <LaserJock> yes, that should be in the very beginning
[10:29] <lloydinho_> that would mean in the team wiki page.
[10:29] <LaserJock> I don't know of any teams where you have to be a member to contribute
[10:30] <LaserJock> I think it should be discussed before, I think this is a general Ubuntu thing
[10:30] <lloydinho_> And since teams have different policies on this (again with the art team as an example) we can't say that there is just one way to do this
[10:30] <LaserJock> well, member != contributor
[10:30] <LaserJock> that's a distinction we need to make clear, I think
[10:31] <lloydinho_> I know. And that is important. Especially how we phrase this to the new budding contributors
[10:31] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:32] <LaserJock> because if you looked at MOTU or the doc team you would get kinda depressed because there aren't that many
[10:32] <LaserJock> so it must be *really* hard to get on the teams in order to contribute
[10:32] <lloydinho_> Because LP seems to formalize something that usually is a kind of vague social tie in a very "are you in my Friends network or not" kind of way.
[10:32] <LaserJock> I've heard that kind of thing before
[10:33] <lloydinho_> The MOTU team is special, since those members are approved by the technical board.
[10:33] <LaserJock> yes
[10:34] <lloydinho_> Really, the MOTU LP page should be saying that loud and clear instead of merely referring to the MOTU recruitment page.
[10:34] <LaserJock> yes
[10:34] <lloydinho_> https://launchpad.net/people/motu
[10:34] <LaserJock> well, the thing is for us, is that nobody should be coming to MOTU through LP
[10:34] <crimsun> ok, let's clear up some stuff.
[10:35] <LaserJock> and perhaps that is perhaps a bad assumption
[10:35] <LaserJock> ack, that's another thing
[10:35] <crimsun> #1. https://launchpad.net/people/motu is not the MOTU group. It needs to state that explicitly. It was a bug triaging group that is now obsolete.
[10:35] <LaserJock> yeah
[10:35] <LaserJock> we should ask for that to be removed
[10:36] <lloydinho_> huh? I search for MOTU in launchpad and that is what I get?
[10:36] <LaserJock> yep
[10:36] <LaserJock> the real MOTU team is ubuntu-dev
[10:36] <LaserJock> on LP
[10:36] <lloydinho_> ah, of course.
[10:36] <LaserJock> as opposed to ubuntu-core-dev for the Main guys
[10:36] <crimsun> #2. State unequivocally that people need not be part of any LP team to contribute. Instead, introduce the various LP teams as "bug triaging" groups. In other words, ubuntu-doc will address bugs for the documentation.
[10:36] <lloydinho_> Well, that's another misunderstanding waiting to happen (again)
[10:37] <LaserJock> crimsun: I don't think most teams view it as "bug triaging"
[10:37] <LaserJock> perhaps that is something that should change
[10:37] <crimsun> LaserJock: no, but we /should/
[10:37] <crimsun> it's the easiest way to address LP teams, really
[10:38] <LaserJock> it is an artifact of LP I think
[10:38] <LaserJock> since it isn't just Malone
[10:38] <LaserJock> translation teams, for instance, are basically concerned with Rosetta
[10:38] <LaserJock> we have upstream product teams
[10:38] <LaserJock> we have all kinds of teams
[10:38] <LaserJock> it's a zoo
[10:38] <crimsun> for instance, I'm not a ubuntu-doc member, but I've contributed to documentation [bugs] 
[10:39] <crimsun> I'm a ubuntu-dev member, and I contribute to universe & multiverse [bugs] 
[10:39] <LaserJock> hehe
[10:39] <crimsun> I'm a ubuntu-core-dev member, and I contribute to main, universe & multiverse [bugs] 
[10:39] <LaserJock> you do contribute to universe bugs for sure ;-)
[10:39] <LaserJock> well, but isn't that very Malone-centric
[10:40] <crimsun> I'm not a kernel-team member, but I contribute to linux-source [bugs] 
[10:40] <lloydinho_> But you do packaging as well, I suppose - also through your ubuntu-dev membership, right?
[10:40] <crimsun> lloydinho_: tasks, I think, are only a very small portion of how to view LP teams
[10:40] <LaserJock> lloydinho_: what he is saying, I think, is that we can think of everything in terms of bugs (or tasks)
[10:40] <crimsun> the point here is that LP teams signify a certain ownership of bug triaging participation
[10:41] <LaserJock> I just don't know that I can agree with that though
[10:41] <LaserJock> because Malone is only a part of LP
[10:41] <LaserJock> and bugs live in Malone
[10:41] <LaserJock> you can have many teams that never touch Malone
[10:41] <crimsun> sure, then substitute the appropriate action
[10:42] <crimsun> Malone teams on LP -> bug triaging
[10:42] <crimsun> Rosetta teams -> trans
[10:42] <crimsun> etc.
[10:42] <LaserJock> I think of most of the teams as being "social collections" with a few important ones actually being "access teams"
[10:43] <crimsun> I prefer to omit the idea of 'access/privilege' completely when introducing an LP novice
[10:43] <LaserJock> there are a lot of artwork and documentation teams that don't use LP for anything but organizing the team
[10:43] <lloydinho> (Okay, I'll be trying GAIM instead now.. this is really strange..)
[10:43] <lloydinho> Marketing does specs for the different projects that they've got going.
[10:43] <crimsun> I think of stuff as in "wanna help? here are people [on such and such team]  that can assist."
[10:44] <LaserJock> I prefer not to introduce the novice to LP
[10:44] <LaserJock> I think that is the job of the wiki, mailing lists, and IRC
[10:44] <LaserJock> LP doesn't give enough information
[10:44] <lloydinho> well, we need to address Launchpad somewhere. 
[10:44] <crimsun> LP is not sufficient, but it's necessary.
[10:45] <lloydinho> "it's this really huge complex beast that you don't need to worry much about, but one day you will learn its secrets..."
[10:45] <LaserJock> I think that the teams should do that, in their specific way. I don't think general contributing docs need to address LP other than to say it exists and what it is used for
[10:45] <lloydinho> "... and then you too will be a master."
[10:45] <crimsun> then what /is/ LP used for?
[10:46] <LaserJock> stuff
[10:46] <LaserJock> ;-)
[10:46] <crimsun> I couldn't even attempt to summarise it
[10:46] <LaserJock> I would do it probably in terms of the different sections
[10:46] <LaserJock> like "Rosseta is used for translating documents and programs into various languages"
[10:47] <lloydinho> Trying to explain all of Launchpad to any new F/OSS contributor is almost impossible, I think.
[10:47] <crimsun> "...where each Rosetta team is..."
[10:47] <LaserJock> the problem is that the teams can really mean various things
[10:47] <LaserJock> the teams aren't really tied to any specific section of LP
[10:47] <lloydinho> you can explain each of the elements (maybe. at least Rosetta, Blueprint and Malone), but not all of them together.
[10:48] <lloydinho> And definitely not how the different teams use them.
[10:48] <LaserJock> there isn't anything that says "this is a Malone team" other than if you but -bugs in the name or something
[10:48] <LaserJock> s/but/put/
[10:49] <crimsun> that's why it's critical to explain what each component's teams do. It doesn't have to be done up front, but it does have to be done.
[10:49] <LaserJock> you can literally make any team for *any* purpose
[10:49] <LaserJock> but how do you explain something that doesn't exist?
[10:49] <LaserJock> I guess we can kinda do it ourselves
[10:49] <lloydinho> yes. And as long as there is no way to differentiate between the teams, it will be even more difficult.
[10:50] <crimsun> I think you mean to ask "How do you enumerate something that's countably infinite?"
[10:50] <lloydinho> hah
[10:51] <lloydinho> It would certainly help if a new user didn't have to deal with *all of launchpad* when they begin.
[10:51] <crimsun> they really don't. They just register if they want.
[10:51] <lloydinho> they'll still start out at the front page of launchpad, 
[10:52] <crimsun> There are plenty of contributors who refuse to register on LP, actually.
[10:52] <LaserJock> I think it might be a bit misleading to give LP teams structure that doesn't really exist. I think it is better the get the person plugged into the team itself, not it's LP manifestation
[10:52] <LaserJock> then the team can explain what LP is used for in their team
[10:53] <crimsun> LaserJock: but then you have to explain what a team is, which brings you back to square one.
[10:53] <LaserJock> let the teams explain it
[10:53] <crimsun> so you're going to say "Join an LP team, and ask team X what its purpose is"?
[10:53] <LaserJock> I just don't see how we can make an all-inclusive statement about what LP teams are
[10:54] <lloydinho> well, that will return us to the question of the different teams offering different and potentially misleading information about teams in general are.
[10:54] <LaserJock> no, I say ditch "Join an LP team". It isn't needed
[10:54] <LaserJock> I think explaining what the various LP components are used for is much more helpful
[10:54] <crimsun> well, /if/ you choose to cover 'LP teams' at all, you could of course just say that a team is a collection of e-mail addresses.
[10:55] <lloydinho> a collection of launchpad users?
[10:56] <LaserJock> something like that,  we could go into more I suppose, but since really LP team really don't have anything to do with getting a person to contribute
[10:56] <LaserJock> I don't think we need to worry a ton about it
[10:56] <crimsun> eventually it will need to be addressed
[10:56] <crimsun> what else is being considered for the 'portal'?
[10:56] <LaserJock> yes, but I think that might be better left to the teams themselves
[10:57] <lloydinho> Hm. Yes. people will ask about it. But I suppose we can let that be addressed by the teams..
[10:57] <crimsun> the first question I have as a new user is "why have a team at all?"
[10:58] <crimsun> anyhow, that's enough about LP
[10:59] <crimsun> what other vectors are there for new Ubuntu contributors?
[11:00] <lloydinho> (It's strange because most of the social structures fell in place before LP opened, and now a parallel structure is appearing in LP. Messy..!)
[11:01] <lloydinho> vectors? As in where will people look and what will they need to know in order to contribute?
[11:05] <crimsun> sure
[11:05] <crimsun> the question is perhaps better phrased as "How can I contribute?"
[11:05] <ompaul> whats with the speed of the wiki?
[11:06] <lloydinho> well, that was basically the name of the doc that LaserJock and I are going to write..
[11:08] <crimsun> lloydinho: right, but how else can I contribute?
[11:09] <nixternal> whats a good professional looking font for a business card?
[11:09] <crimsun> meaning "suppose I'm a new user, and I'd like to know where to jump in"
[11:10] <ompaul> nixternal, that actually depends on the quantity of text and the design on the card, generally a serif is a nice professional touch 
[11:10] <nixternal> the Ubuntu Business Card..i have an event tonight, I would like to give a couple out with CDs so people can contact me for support and direction
[11:11] <ompaul> crimsun, then I would have to ask you a two part question, what can you do, and what would you like to do?
[11:11] <crimsun> lloydinho: do you feel that's answerable by the new docs you're constructing?
[11:12] <ompaul> nixternal, use something from the "examples" with 6.06
[11:12] <nixternal> hmm, let me look in there
[11:13] <lloydinho> crimsun: That was the plan, yes.
[11:14] <lloydinho> We want a one-stop reference that we can add to the System docs that ship with Ubuntu.
[11:15] <lloydinho> That will give enough stable information to get people involved with what they feel capable of contributing to.
[11:17] <crimsun> ok, I'm obviously not making myself clear. I'm asking what have you covered, and where are you looking now?
[11:18] <lloydinho> Um. We have only just started. I'll be writing the first draft tomorrow.
[11:19] <lloydinho> What I have done so far is taking all of the various scraps of "Get Involved" and "Helping Out" pages on the Website and the wiki, and I want to use that as a base to make a solid document.
[11:19] <crimsun> Ok, and that covers which major vectors into Ubuntu?
[11:20] <crimsun> (art? translation? packaging? bug triaging? etc.)
[11:21] <lloydinho> advocacy, Doc team, wiki team, artwork, marketing, general testing, laptop testing, server testing, the bugsquad, desktop team, serverteam, the MOTUs...
[11:21] <nixternal> don't forget about Ubuntu Chicago ;)
[11:21] <lloydinho> though, advocacy and marketing might be the same thing, I don't know.
[11:22] <lloydinho> heh. Yes. I need something on LoCo teams as well. 
[11:22] <lloydinho> ;-)
[11:24] <lloydinho> ... and the various community support as well, of course.
[11:25] <crimsun> lloydinho: ok, looking forward to it
[11:27] <lloydinho> thanks, crimsun - it sounds like you'll have a lot of good input on this, when it gets closer to completion. So, do not hesitate to add your comments when we get a draft out on the wiki...
[11:27] <LaserJock> hehe, I sense a bit of "I'll believe it when I see it" in there crimsun ;-)
[11:28] <crimsun> no
[11:28] <lloydinho> heh, well given the current state of the "Contribute" docs, I wouldn't blame you.. :-)
[11:29] <LaserJock> well, I wonder how we can pull it off
[11:29] <crimsun> I'm trying to envision as many nodes as possible that can be collapsed
[11:29] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:29] <LaserJock> I think it's a worth-while effort though
[11:29] <LaserJock> that can evolve as we go
[11:30] <crimsun> it's definitely worthwhile, and it will have to evolve since Ubuntu evolves
[11:30] <lloydinho> Yes, I've been thinking about that. At moment, the most common distinction of ways to contribute seems to be between "technical" and "non-technical" which is slightly mis-leading.
[11:31] <LaserJock> yeah, I'd rather focus on what people are naturally interested in
[11:31] <LaserJock> but it's hard because you ask somebody, "What areas do you interested in?" and you get "I don't know, I just wanna help"
[11:31] <lloydinho> exactly.
[11:32] <LaserJock> but I  think that's perhaps more of a lack-of-information problem than anything
[11:32] <lloydinho> People don't really build a set idea of what they want to do before they say they want to contribute.
[11:33] <lloydinho> The important thing would be to have a list of projects for every team that people can look at and go "Hey, I can help with that!"
[11:33] <LaserJock> yeah
[11:34] <lloydinho> You'd need to know the community a lot better to be able to start up a whole new project on your own.
[11:34] <lloydinho> Because you might end up spending a lot of effort on something that nobody else agrees with.
[11:36] <Burgwork> indeed
[11:40] <lloydinho> anyway, it's time for bed. See ya next week.
[11:41] <skora> Is there a ubuntu irc channel for PPC ? 
[11:41] <pygi> skora, not really, just use #ubuntu I would say
[11:41] <Burgwork> skora, not really. If you need help, try #ubuntu
[11:41] <skora> k
[11:41] <pygi> Burgwork, !!!
[11:41] <pygi> :)
[11:42] <Burgwork> pygi, fools seldom differ ;)
[11:45] <pygi> Burgwork, hehe :)
[11:55] <nixternal> the wiki picks the best times to not work doesn't it
[11:56] <nixternal> arg, and help.ubuntu.com
[11:56] <Burgwork> most of the time it works
[11:56] <Burgwork> http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/27/london.blackout/index.html
[11:56] <Burgwork> that might explain it
[11:56] <nixternal> ya, but an hour b4 i have to give a presentation ;)