[03:08] <adamant1988> hello all
[03:13] <ormiret> morning
[04:00] <Madpilot> ah, the unified branding thing has surfaced on the mailing list...
[04:03] <Burgundavia> which one?
[04:04] <Madpilot> that wiki page
[04:04] <Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnifiedUbuntuBranding
[04:05] <Burgundavia> but which mailing list
[04:05] <Madpilot> the marketing team ML
[04:15] <bimberi> be gentle
[04:15] <Burgundavia> I think I was
[04:17] <bimberi> grr - my email redirection is slow (yet again)  *heads to the archives*
[04:17] <Burgundavia> I basically told him we would gain nothing and lose lots
[04:22] <nixternal> ARG!!!
[04:23] <nixternal> it wouldn't be
[04:23] <nixternal> Ubuntu > Linux > Gnome
[04:23] <nixternal> Linux then Ubuntu then Gnome, even if it was acceptable
[04:23] <nixternal> and even then it doesn't work
[04:24] <Burgundavia> regardless of minor things like that, it still won't work on the grand scale
[04:24] <nixternal> you know, he really does mean well, but I think there needs to be some FOSS reviewing on his side
[04:25] <nixternal> he is a real marketer as well I believe, and is pretty intelligent.
[04:25] <Burgundavia> ah
[04:25] <Burgundavia> that is why it is so well laid out
[04:25] <nixternal> ya Burgundavia, he knows what he is doing with the legalities i guess you could say
[04:26] <bimberi> i stopped at the 'Hector Quintero Story' before
[04:26] <Burgundavia> I can produce well polished turds too
[04:26] <Madpilot> Burgundavia, you're in sales, it's how you make your living :)
[04:26] <Burgundavia> heh
[04:27] <nixternal> hahaha
[04:27] <nixternal> i haven't figured out just how to polish them yet
[04:27] <nixternal> but when i do!!!
[04:32] <bimberi> yes, he has missed the Canonical aspect
[04:35] <bimberi> hm, neither ubuntu.com or the CD cover mention Canonical (except in the fine print)
[04:36] <Madpilot> that's the only place it needs to be mentioned
[04:37] <bimberi> but "Canonical --> Ubuntu" ????
[04:37] <Burgundavia> yes, for the people who matter
[04:37] <Burgundavia> companies
[04:37] <Burgundavia> that is the only reason I could even see why we would rebrand
[04:37] <nixternal> Linux Kernel + Community + Gnome -> Ubuntu
[04:38] <nixternal> Ubuntu + Community + KDE -> Kubuntu
[04:38] <nixternal> and so on
[04:38] <nixternal> actually
[04:38] <bimberi> yet somehow it _is_ the press's perception as you said Burgundavia
[04:39] <nixternal> Debian + Community + Ubuntu Philosophy + Gnome = Ubuntu ;)
[04:39] <bimberi> + CoC !!!
[04:39] <nixternal> Ubuntuhaha
[04:39] <nixternal> i was just going there
[04:40] <nixternal> Ubuntu + Kubuntu + Edubuntu + Xubuntu + CoC + Community + Philosopgy = rm -rf /world
[04:40] <bimberi> it's the press's perception because Mark Shuttleworth is the story
[04:40] <bimberi> so it's
[04:41] <bimberi> Mark Shuttleworth -> Ubuntu
[04:41] <Burgundavia> right, Mark, who has Kubuntu on the desktop he never uses
[04:41] <Burgundavia> funny how the last part of the story always gets forgotten
[04:42] <nixternal> hmm
[04:43] <bimberi> i'm yet to experience a story i know about being correctly reported in the media
[04:54] <Madpilot> someone pinged me just before I dropped off - was that here?
[04:54] <bimberi> nope
[04:56] <Burgundavia> nope
[05:03] <adamant1988> hello all
[05:24] <gaz00> lol
[05:24] <gaz00> seems like every time that i open this window, you're saying "hi" adamant1988
[05:24] <adamant1988> well, you know how it is
[05:24] <adamant1988> someone has to talk in this channel
[05:25] <gaz00> how, you and i saying "hi" all day long?
[05:25] <gaz00> Done.  Filler it is!
[05:25] <gaz00> how's that shop thing coming along?
[05:27] <adamant1988> It's slowly but surely coming along
[05:27] <adamant1988> I'm trying to determine if I want to go for distro agnostic, or if I want to do ubuntu only.
[05:28] <gaz00> wouldn't ubuntu only be easier?
[05:29] <adamant1988> most likely, but the thought crosses my mind... I might apply for a business license for it...
[05:30] <gaz00> hrm..   sounds like a lot still has to be planned out
[05:32] <adamant1988> There is a lot to be planned out.
[05:32] <adamant1988> I'm constructing a business plan... I'm hoping that I can turn this center/shop into a viable business.
[05:32] <adamant1988> Take a cue from wal-mart... if you want to make people see something, make it visible... PHYSICALLY visible.
[05:33] <gaz00> so what exactly would you be selling?
[05:33] <adamant1988> by offering a service that other computer users need, using either Windows or Linux, I can get their attention.
[05:33] <adamant1988> So probably hardware, custom built computers tailor made to the users needs.
[05:33] <gaz00> ahh...    i'd be interested to see the deal that you end up working out with the shopowners
[05:34] <adamant1988> currently I have 60 square feet
[05:34] <gaz00> especially if you're after prime space
[05:34] <gaz00> not bad at all
[05:34] <adamant1988> But it's show room space, and it's free.
[05:35] <adamant1988> if the center does well, I will be allowed to rent out a 75x50' show room that's attached to the building for a couple hundred a month.
[05:36] <adamant1988> but, I won't be allowed to rent out the room until I get a business license.
[05:36] <gaz00> makes sense...
[05:36] <adamant1988> yeah...
[05:36] <adamant1988> my goal is to spread linux the way it needs to be spread..
[05:37] <adamant1988> My issue is, do I back just Ubuntu? or do I back multiple distros?
[05:37] <gaz00> i'm thinking aobut an article that i read about how mark is still trying to recoup his investment and wondering how he was planning on doing it
[05:38] <gaz00> well -  the easiest answer is to back what you know to start.   It does you no good if someone walks in and has a question, but you can't answer it.
[05:38] <adamant1988> there are 3 distros that I know fairly well.
[05:38] <adamant1988> Ubuntu, SLED 10, and Linspire 5.
[05:38] <gaz00> then start with those
[05:39] <adamant1988> I don't think I'll branch past those, to be honest...
[05:39] <adamant1988> I might offer a service where I'll download and install any distro the user wants, but I will only officially support a combo of those three.
[05:39] <gaz00> that's still a big bite...3 separate distros can be very different (note:  i'm not familiar with SLED nor linspire)
[05:40] <adamant1988> Linspire..., If it weren't for being completely out-dated Linspire could be very big for the linux desktop
[05:40] <gaz00> the way that ubuntu's been going lately, imho, it still makes sense to cover the biggest distro first and focus on that.
[05:41] <adamant1988> SLED 10 is the best for businesses, I don't doubt.
[05:41] <adamant1988> But Ubuntu... ubuntu comes "crippled" out of the box as a full OS.
[05:43] <adamant1988> That's my issue with Ubuntu... Ubuntu does everything BUT multimedia support, great.
[05:43] <gaz00> maybe i'm just trying to be too simplistic, but wouldn't what you just said make the most sense?   ditch linspire - worry about what it is and not what it CAN be...   promote SLED for business and Ubuntu for other situations
[05:43] <adamant1988> Although I believe Ubuntu would benefit from CNR type technology (which is now open source) I don't think it's necessary because Ubuntu has the next easiest app install.
[05:44] <gaz00> or make one big install script that loads MM support all at once
[05:44] <adamant1988> Well, I've got time, and the next Linspire is supposedly releasing 4th quarter this year.
[05:45] <adamant1988> I think I'm going to have to see what happens in the linux landscape this year.
[05:46] <adamant1988> I expect Ubuntu will always be much more technologically up to date than Linspire can or will be. just because of the difference in release cycles.
[05:47] <gaz00> heh.   when do you get the floorspace?
[05:48] <adamant1988> the floor space is open all year, I can move in whenever I want.
[05:48] <gaz00> i would imagine that ubuntu has a bigger dev following as well, which will add even more to ubuntu
[05:48] <gaz00> oh
[05:48] <gaz00> that's a pretty sweet deal that you have set up there
[05:48] <Burgundavia> adamant1988: exactly what does CNR offer over GAI
[05:48] <adamant1988> Yeah, but I need for this center to make some serious ground.
[05:49] <adamant1988> Burgundavia, The main thing that it does is it allows you to see if that package is worth downloading.
[05:49] <Burgundavia> via what method?
[05:49] <adamant1988> it lets you read user reviews etc.
[05:49] <adamant1988> It shows you screen shots, gives you data on getting support for that package, etc.
[05:49] <adamant1988> ALSO the AISLES feature
[05:50] <adamant1988> Aisles allow you to download a group of program all at once, with one click, and install them...
[05:50] <adamant1988> so if you get a new computer and you want to set it up like your old one was... it only takes one click.
[05:50] <gaz00> that includes setup, or just a list of programs?
[05:51] <adamant1988> setup and everything it downloads and installs them all.
[05:51] <gaz00> that is quite interesting...   never heard about that before
[05:51] <adamant1988> not to mention another thing
[05:51] <adamant1988> Click-N-Buy
[05:52] <adamant1988> You can buy commercial applications through CNR as well... just one click.
[05:52] <adamant1988> Crossover, Cedega, Win4Lin, several CAD programs, etc.
[05:52] <adamant1988> and you can sort the information by user rating, etc.
[05:54] <adamant1988> you can view the basic CNR repo on the linspire site... it looks out of date, but actually if you bother paying the $4 something a month it has more programs and they're more up to date.
[05:55] <gaz00> hrm....  I'm not quite sure that I understand
[05:55] <adamant1988> CNR is subscription based
[05:55] <gaz00> $4.xx / month lets you browse for more up-to-date items which you can buy?   what does the $4 get you?
[05:56] <adamant1988> custom aisles, and a crap load of extra's updates etc..
[05:56] <adamant1988> the basic account can only have one custom aisle, but the gold account can have as many as it wants.
[05:56] <adamant1988> gold accounts get MASSIVE discounts on commecial software
[05:56] <adamant1988> I think you get like 30 dollars off of Crossover if you're using a Gold Account, etc.
[05:57] <adamant1988> oh and then DVD playback only costs like $5 instead of $30.
[05:57] <gaz00> it sounds like the costs add up though.
[05:57] <adamant1988> They do, but it's all legal and easy as hell, that's the plus.
[05:58] <adamant1988> It's certainly not the cheapest desktop linux, but it is hands down the easiest.
[05:58] <adamant1988> no need to install mp3 and flash and all that, they're in it right out of the box.
[05:59] <adamant1988> the biggest question for people is... would they pay for the convenience?
[05:59] <gaz00> heh
[05:59] <adamant1988> it has AMAZING hardware detection, wireless... right out of the box, etc.
[05:59] <gaz00> i'm sure that many will and do, but it really does detract from one of linuxes biggest selling points in that it's free
[05:59] <adamant1988> I agree with you
[05:59] <adamant1988> Freespire fills in that gap actually...
[06:00] <adamant1988> Freespire is supposedly "the distro about choice"
[06:00] <adamant1988> there are two versions... one has mm installed by default, one has everything free in it.
[06:00] <adamant1988> so no mm.
[06:01] <adamant1988> CNR isn't "forced" like it is in Linspire 5.
[06:01] <adamant1988> you can use apt if you want to.
[06:01] <gaz00> heh... you're going to spend your 60ft of spaces with charts detailing differences :p
[06:01] <gaz00> bimberi, lol
[06:01] <Burgundavia> honestly, there is nothing for the average consumer to be able to tell the difference
[06:02] <adamant1988> Burgundavia, I would think the average consumer would see a massive difference between distros... the difference is that if I go the Ubuntu route, I am almost guaranteed that they will be back for help with getting multimedia, wireless, or video cards to work.
[06:03] <Burgundavia> after they have purchased it maybe
[06:03] <adamant1988> which may not be a bad thing at all, I could use that guaranteed return as an opportunity to sell more services.
[06:05] <adamant1988> believe me I'm really weighing the pros and cons of each, I'll probably support all 3... each for a different scenario...
[06:07] <gaz00> yeah, i'm still thinking that with how fast they change, you'll end up spending a lot of your time keeping up with all 3
[06:07] <gaz00> but you seem ot know them pretty well, so it is up to you.
[06:08] <adamant1988> I'm really adamant about Linspire actually being a good distro (in case you haven't noticed)... most people who like FOSS hate it on principle, but now that CNR is open sourced I don't see what grounds that argument has against it that wouldn't be against Mepis as well.   Just needs to be more up to date.
[06:09] <adamant1988> Ubuntu is just awesome and the community is amazing
[06:09] <adamant1988> that community is Ubuntu's largest selling point.
[06:09] <gaz00> lol... yeah, you're not exactly too subtle about it ;)
[06:10] <adamant1988> I never claimed to be.
[06:10] <gaz00> actually, while you guys are here, I do have a question....
[06:10] <adamant1988> I've always been very opinionated, it's a curse.
[06:10] <gaz00> and a blessing...   opinions can be good or bad, but it's up to the audience to decide :)
[06:11] <gaz00> the question:   what do you guys think that the best way of measuring Ubuntu usage would be?
[06:11] <Madpilot> gaz00, traffic to the repos & various mirrors
[06:12] <adamant1988> gaz00 look in the forums and you have a pretty decent idea, IMO.
[06:12] <gaz00> Madpilot, is that information public?   and it wouldn't include CDs nor copies distributed between people directly
[06:13] <Madpilot> no idea if it's public or not, but Canonical might be able to provide some figures from their main repos
[06:13] <adamant1988> it goes against the ubuntu way to download ubuntu and start using it and not at least posting on the forums...
[06:13] <Madpilot> there's 120,000+ registered users of ubuntuforums.org, but for sure there's lots more Ubuntu users than that, worldwide
[06:14] <adamant1988> is that counting all the other national forums?
[06:14] <Madpilot> no, that's only ubuntuforums.org
[06:14] <adamant1988> ok, I don't know about the other national forums, but I'm fairly certain the community activity speaks for which people are actually using Ubuntu.
[06:17] <gaz00> hrm...  personally, of the ubuntu users that I know, none of them are active in the forums.
[06:18] <adamant1988> it's the exact opposite for me =\
[06:18] <gaz00> you sound like you're surrounded by technically minded people though
[06:18] <Madpilot> gaz00, I know a number of Ubuntu users who either don't use or actually avoid ubuntuforums
[06:18] <gaz00> Madpilot, that's the impression that i had
[06:19] <Madpilot> some people more involved with Ubuntu that I am even deliberately avoid those forums...
[06:22] <ormiret> *of
[06:23] <adamant1988> the forums keep me busy and entertained
[08:04] <nixternal> Commercial/Typical/General/Corporate/Merchandise/Product Marketing != FOSS Marketing!!!  To many good ideas, just with a "Microsoft $$$$" frame of mind
[08:05] <gaz00> lol
[08:05] <gaz00> nixternal, sounds like you need to gripe :p
[08:06] <nixternal> nah, just people who think they know marketing and what not, try to create an argument that doesn't even fit or go with the FOSS community or the marketing strategies of FOSS
[08:07] <nixternal> for instance, I am almost complete with my Master's in Business Administration with a Major in Entrepreneurship and a Minor in Marketing
[08:07] <Madpilot> ick, we're in the presence of an MBA ;) (almost)
[08:07] <nixternal> now, I have worked in the marketing dept b4, however everything i learned, cannot really be utilized in FOSS, Ubuntu, Linux, this community
[08:08] <nixternal> Ya Madpilot, it seems they get the big bucks now a days
[08:08] <Madpilot> heh
[08:08] <Madpilot> true 'nuff
[08:08] <nixternal> all my bosses have that stupid plaque on the wall that says MBA
[08:08] <nixternal> hell, i guess i needed one ;)
[08:08] <Burgundavia> GWB is the first MBA president...
[08:08] <nixternal> woohoo
[08:08] <nixternal> i will be the 2nd
[08:08] <nixternal> ;)
[08:09] <Burgundavia> lets hope you do better than the 1st
[08:09] <Madpilot> he's got a Masters in Badly Administering, GW
[08:09] <nixternal> hey now, you are talking about my Commander and Chief
[08:10] <Madpilot> nixternal, you military?
[08:10] <nixternal> I voted for him twice, so I guess there are some dumber then him
[08:10] <nixternal> yes sir
[08:10] <nixternal> reserves now
[08:10] <nixternal> 5 years until retirement
[08:11] <nixternal> 5.5 years to be exact...December 6th, 2011 i am eligible for 20yr term retirement
[08:12] <nixternal> and with my rate and rank, i fall right in between the high enough to go and the low enough to fight category
[08:27] <Burgundavia> oh, lovely, quote Milton Friedman at me. That is *really* going to convince me. NOT!
[08:28] <gaz00> sweet...  a FOSS advocate in a capitalistic society.   hrmmm
[08:33] <Burgundavia> this branding thread is another giant useless mess already
[08:33] <Burgundavia> lots of hand waving without much else
[08:37] <Madpilot> all that stuff about "the community won't move without a crisis" - true, but first, prove we have a crisis...
[08:38] <Burgundavia> actually, it is flat out wrong
[08:38] <Burgundavia> we are not a democracy
[08:41] <nixternal> hey Burgundavia, i read that book in high school, it is part of the economics course for high school in illinois ;)
[08:41] <Burgundavia> I have read it too, sadly
[08:42] <nixternal> iirc, friedman had more accusations of fraud then any other person in those times
[08:42] <nixternal> lol
[08:43] <nixternal> Burgundavia: i would say don't get all worked up over it, as you are probably batteling someone reading about.com, as the answers/replies are few and far between..and seem rather scripted
[08:43] <Burgundavia> yep
[08:45] <nixternal> i wonder if people actually read the community pages, the about pages, and such at ubuntu.com. to me, it sounds like they are sipping the kool-aid and don't even know the flavor
[08:45] <Burgundavia> pretty much
[08:45] <nixternal> they are actually trying to support something that goes against the Ubuntu philosophy
[08:46] <nixternal> arg, i need ice cream
[08:46] <Burgundavia> I have no problem with changing anything. I just need a good reason
[08:46] <nixternal> i don't think a good reason will ever come out of it, unless somehow Ubuntu does the unthinkable and comercializes
[08:47] <Burgundavia> never happn
[08:47] <nixternal> that is why i love this place ;)
[08:47] <nixternal> FREEEEEE!!!
[08:47] <nixternal> ok, ice cream time ;)
[09:47] <matthewrevell> RichJ: new nick?
[09:48] <RichJ> no
[09:48] <RichJ> im on my laptop
[09:49] <RichJ> that is messed up hardcore right now because the edgy updates tonight are bad
[09:49] <matthewrevell> ah :(
[09:50] <RichJ> ya, it kind of hurts, as tomorrow is a busy day for me
[09:51] <RichJ> gotta get ready for vacation on friday, and then i have an ubuntu chicago even tomorrow night that i gotta get ready for
[12:28] <matthewrevell> mdke_: ping
[12:29] <mdke_> matthewrevell: hi
[12:30] <matthewrevell> mdke_: Yesterday, Nixternal, I think, mentioned that the docs team has a set of processes that govern the running of the team. I'm keen to help better organise the marketing team.
[12:31] <matthewrevell> Maybe I've missed them, but I can't find reference to such processes on the doc team wiki pages
[12:31] <matthewrevell> any chance of a pointer?
[12:31] <matthewrevell> s/govern/support
[12:32] <mdke_> matthewrevell: I suppose https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
[12:34] <matthewrevell> First place I looked, but thanks :) I take it that means there isn't anything more formal. That's cool. Thanks.
[03:16] <matthewrevell> Hi Chris
[04:20] <Ckenyon> matthewrevell: hi
[07:34] <Burgwork> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2006-July/msg00275.html
[07:37] <nixternal> ya, i also read somewhere that they want to fix ubuntu.com the same way that the BBC did their site, for accessibility purposes mainly, that was the reason behind the BBC change
[07:49] <MenZa> Ungoals..
[07:49] <MenZa> Sounds like newspeak to me.
[07:51] <Burgwork> no, actually, it is not
[07:52] <Burgwork> it is all about being very targetted with what you do