[12:08] <Burgundavia> CarlFK: graphical or text installer?
[12:08] <CarlFK> text - 
[12:08] <Burgundavia> then yes
[12:08] <CarlFK> -server
[12:09] <CarlFK> yes it should, or yes debian-installer ?
[12:19] <Amaranth> CarlFK: Yes to file against debian-installer
[12:45] <mdz> pygi_: a bit
[12:58] <pygi_> mdz, it's weekend, sorry for bothering
[12:58] <pygi_> we'll talk on monday
[01:41] <slomo> infinity: hi... please give-back gnome-python-extras on !i386 and after that build istanbul on !i386. should work now that totem build everywhere
[03:17] <bddebian> Howdy
[05:37] <khermans> can someone help me confirm a bug?
[05:37] <khermans> i see this issue in Firefox on multiple machines in Dapper
[05:39] <AlinuxOS> khermans, maybe Firefox's localisation problem?
[05:39] <khermans> this in english
[05:40] <AlinuxOS> where is the problem?
[05:40] <khermans> when setting a program to handle downloads
[05:40] <khermans> this is in dapper
[05:41] <AlinuxOS> mmm
[05:41] <khermans> can you try it?
[05:42] <AlinuxOS> khermans, maybe it's Firefox's problem.
[05:42] <khermans> umm it might be
[05:43] <AlinuxOS> so you can try to file the bug here: https://launchpad.net/malone 
[05:43] <khermans> AlinuxOS, well yeah but i want to see if you can verify it
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> khermans, I use epiphany
[05:44] <khermans> AlinuxOS, oh ok
[05:44] <khermans> so you cant help
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> I don't use Firefox.
[05:44] <AlinuxOS> khermans, try to ask on #firefox
[05:44] <khermans> k
[08:29] <infinity> Uhh, WTF?  How did linux-headers-686 end up in ubuntu-desktop?
[08:30] <Burgundavia> morning infinity
[08:30] <Hobbsee> hi infinity, Burgundavia 
[08:30] <Hobbsee> someone on drugs, probably
[08:30] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: likely a KDE user <ducks> :)
[08:30] <infinity> And why can't I update the seeds?  THANKS, BZR!
[08:30] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: hah.  no, if it was a KDE user, they would have used linux-headers-ppc out of spite.
[08:31] <Hobbsee> seeing as there are a lot more -686 users than ppc
[08:31] <Burgundavia> right, I forgot how truly devious playing with all those useless options makes you KDE users
[08:31] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: hah.
[08:32] <infinity> Oh, no, thanks to me for removing python2.4-paramiko, and to bzr for not providing a useful error message about it..
[08:38] <jdub> infinity: headers + gcc -> bits to build kernel modules?
[08:39] <jdub> (which makes me frown a bit)
[08:39] <infinity> jdub: Oh, GCC got added too?  Guess I lost that fight, then.
[08:39] <infinity> jdub: Of course, having it depend on "linux-headers-686" doesn't do much good for people with any of the other kernel flavours installed.
[08:40] <jdub> bummer
[08:41] <shenki> oh well, having the headers is better than what it could be... at the novell sled installfest they got us to install all 240mb of the kernel sources just to be able to build the binary drivers
[08:43] <shenki> apologies, wrong channel
[08:45] <infinity> 00:44 -!- binaryBlob [...]  has quit
[08:49] <nictuku> catalyst is great :-)
[09:22] <bluefoxicy> what the heck is with the "reach out to women" crap in open source software?
[09:22] <bluefoxicy> It's a free and open development model
[09:23] <bluefoxicy> if the girls want to contribute they'll contribute and nobody is going to hurl them back out into a bush and run outside real quick to nail a "NO GIRLS ALLOWED!!!11111 all your base!" sign on the door
[09:26] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: shut your mouth before i violate the CoC, and give you a piece of my mind.
[09:28] <Zdra> all means are good to have more contributors
[09:28] <Burgundavia> bluefoxicy: like it or not, women are extremely underrepresented
[09:28] <Yagisan> Hobbsee, just disable your signature on it for 30 seconds
[09:28] <Hobbsee> Yagisan: hmm?
[09:29] <Burgundavia> bluefoxicy: if we are truly to be inclusive, we should be figuring why we are not repsentative and correct the issue. hence why things like debian-women exist
[09:29] <Yagisan> Hobbsee, on lp. you can "revoke it". have a another sighned one ready to upload, after you offload
[09:29] <Yagisan> Hobbsee, then technically - it's not violated :)
[09:29] <Hobbsee> Yagisan: i dont understand why...
[09:29] <Hobbsee> ohhh...
[09:29] <Hobbsee> lol
[09:31] <Hobbsee> bluefoxicy: it's people who say shit like you who discourage women, a lot of the time.
[09:39] <Burgundavia> bluefoxicy: I suggest you read http://women.debian.org/faqs/
[09:39] <Burgundavia> Hobbsee: you know argentina has more women DD's than men now?
[09:39] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: i heard that, actually.
[09:40] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: sounds cool to me - although once you're in, it doesnt make that much difference which gender you are.  if you can cope with a little, or a lot of sexual harrassment, and just ignore it.
[09:40] <Burgundavia> sadly true
[09:40] <Burgundavia> I read the comments on the announcement of fedora-women
[09:40] <Burgundavia> probably shouldn't off, kind of knew it would be dumb
[09:41] <Burgundavia> pretty much
[09:42] <Burgundavia> I think most of it is ignorance, rather than willfull stupidity
[09:42] <Burgundavia> I just hope it is, at lesat
[09:42] <Hobbsee> Burgundavia: dont forget idiots who havent learned to grow up yet, and think that being a moron will give them someone to sleep with.
[09:42] <Burgundavia> right
[09:44] <Yagisan> Hobbsee, experince tells, being a moron does not get you laid.
[09:44] <jdub> Yagisan: there are people you can see about that
[09:44] <Hobbsee> groan.  someone had to point that out, didnt they.
[09:45] <Yagisan> jdub, no no need. My wife prefers me to not be a moron
[09:46] <Yagisan> jdub, just as long as when she says jump, I answer "how high"
[09:46] <janimo> infinity: ping
[10:01] <Lathiat> whos the right person to speak to about new kernels initramfs not finding my drives to boot?
[10:01] <Burgundavia> mdz: "thanks" for making me a moderator of -devel as well :)
[10:22] <janimo> glatzor: hi
[10:22] <glatzor> morning janimo!
[10:23] <janimo> glatzor: the last changelog in g-a-i says something about replacing gtkhtml?
[10:23] <glatzor> janimo: right. But I only replaced it in the description view.
[10:23] <janimo> is that throughout g-a-i or in only one place? As I see there's still a gtk referenmce
[10:23] <janimo> a ok, so it stays?
[10:23] <glatzor> So we still use it for the third party licences.
[10:23] <glatzor> :/
[10:24] <janimo> I could not bzr get to check tha actual logs and changes since bzr hangs after 20-30 minutes
[10:24] <janimo> glatzor: can/should that be changed?
[10:24] <janimo> I am looking into g-a-i to see whether it can be made gtk only
[10:24] <janimo> to add it to xubuntu
[10:24] <glatzor> Originally we planned to use the firefox python bindings. But they are broken at the moment.
[10:25] <janimo> ok, thanks :)
[10:26] <glatzor> Could be doable.
[10:26] <glatzor> but I think that you have to discuss the replacement of the licence widget with the marketing department
[10:27] <janimo> right now it's only gconf and gtk-html that are from pygnome as I see it
[10:27] <janimo> glatzor: ok I'll look at the license widget,I am not familiar with gtkhtml
[10:28] <glatzor> perhaps we could just write our own html parser for the licences
[10:28] <glatzor> it is quite simple html
[10:30] <glatzor> I have already written an advanced textview inherit.
[10:30] <glatzor> it can handle urls :)
[10:30] <glatzor> I wrote it for update-manager to show the release notes.
[10:31] <janimo> so is it used in u-m?
[10:31] <glatzor> So it is called ReleaseNotesViewer. I reused in gnome-app-install for the description view.
[10:32] <glatzor> I will take a look at the available licences. We just skip images and only do the bold and italic style of the text.
[10:33] <glatzor> we could just.. :)
[10:33] <janimo> would be really nice
[10:34] <glatzor> or we could just skip the third party stuff in xubuntu in a first step, since it isn't also available in kubuntu and nobody has complained yet :)
[10:35] <janimo> like realplyaer/opera ?
[10:35] <glatzor> yes. 
[10:35] <janimo> that too, but the problem is that the package depends on gnome libraries. Is 3rd party stuff in a separate binary package?
[10:36] <janimo> or you mean soft-depend on gtkhtml and not show it in xubuntu?
[10:36] <janimo> like with gconf in u-m?
[10:36] <glatzor> right.
[10:36] <janimo> that's a way too. Although the attractiveness of g-a-i to me is the 3rd party packages
[10:36] <janimo> dunno about users though
[10:37] <glatzor> one moment, I will take a look at the complexity of the html in the licences
[10:41] <glatzor> oh, it is really simple at the moment. perhaps beautifulsoup could be a nice solution.
[10:41] <janimo> it's  in universe though
[10:42] <janimo> maybe the advantages of using this over gtkhtml are smaller than the drawbacks
[10:42] <janimo> I am for it of course as it makes g-a-i possible in xubuntu :)
[10:58] <Zdra> anyone knows if/when metacity will be build with compositor enabled ?
[10:58] <Burgundavia> Zdra: there is a spificity in the repos
[11:00] <Zdra> ah ok I see: spiftacity
[11:01] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: which is old & broken
[11:02] <Zdra> hum version 2.13, 2.15 has alot of improvements
[11:02] <ajmitch> yes
[11:02] <Burgundavia> ajmitch: I made no claim as to function, just to existence
[11:02] <Zdra> :)
[11:02] <ajmitch> Zdra: you have to grab libcm from cvs to do so
[11:03] <Zdra> ajmitch: I know
[11:03] <ogra> isnt that already in ? there is a gconf key to enable it
[11:03] <ajmitch> ogra: no, not really
[11:03] <ajmitch> metacity isn't built with compositing support by default
[11:03] <ogra> then i wonder why its in the schema
[11:04] <slomo> probably because nobody cared enough to leave it out of the schema when compositing support is not compiled in
[12:01] <pulsar_> Hi.
[12:05] <hunger> Could ubuntu use some more restrictive mount options for its filesystems by default?
[12:06] <pitti> hunger: more restrictive in what way?
[12:06] <hunger> eg. /dev needs no suid, /var/lock could be mounted with nodev,noexec,nosuid as well.
[12:07] <hunger> lrm could even be ro,nodev,noexec,nosuid.
[12:07] <azeem>  /dev is mounted?
[12:07] <hunger> azeem: Yeap. /dev is a tmpfs.
[12:07] <azeem> ah, right
[12:08] <hunger> azeem: as is /var/lock, /var/run. /proc and /sys are mounted as well and could probably work with less permissions as well.
[12:09] <Nafallo> hunger: refering to debian-administration.org? :-)
[12:11] <hunger> Nafallo: No. I'd never do that:-) It is just that that article made me wonder how the permissions are set on my ubuntu machines: Everything is a simple (rw) :-(
[12:12] <hunger> The dirs mounted by the ubuntu system should at least come with settings as restrictive as possible by default IMHO.
[12:13] <hunger> It is done easily enough by adding a couple of lines to /etc/fstab.
[12:14] <pitti> hunger: right, that indeed makes sense; new installations can change that easily
[12:14] <pitti> hunger: can you please file a bug against the installer?
[12:14] <hunger> pitti: I will.
[12:16] <pitti> hunger: cool, thanks
[12:23] <hunger> pitti: #54530 is open and unassigned to a package now (installer is not valid and I did not know what else to use).
[12:24] <Amaranth> hunger: debian-installer
[12:25] <hunger> Amaranth: Ok, changed.
[12:26] <pitti> hunger: argh, I wanted to change it to d-i, but LP oopses
[12:26] <hunger> pitti: I did already.
[12:27] <pitti> yep, saw it
[12:28] <hunger> I always think twice before sending a bugreport... LP is so damn confusing that I just do not want to touch it:-(
[12:52] <Seveas> hunger, http://launchpad.net/products/malone/+filebug if you have concrete gripes 
[01:50] <sivang> re
[01:53] <slomo_> hi sivang 
[02:26] <mikearthur> any of you guys know which package provides the mach64 kernel module?
[02:30] <azeem> mikearthur: please ask in #ubuntu
[02:30] <mikearthur> sorry azeem, I have, but no-one seems to know
[02:30] <mikearthur> I just asked on the off chance someone knew
[02:31] <Hobbsee> mikearthur: if you know the file path of the module, you can look it up on packages.ubuntu.com
[02:31] <azeem> mikearthur: sorry, but that is not a reason to ask here
[02:31] <Hobbsee> hi Toadstool 
[02:31] <Toadstool> hey Hobbsee 
[02:31] <mikearthur> Hobbsee: thanks
[02:32] <mikearthur> laters
[02:34] <azeem> mjg59: did you take a look at fd.o's pm-utils?
[02:35] <mjg59> azeem: Yeah
[02:35] <azeem> does it look like it has potential?
[02:36] <mjg59> Oh, it's certainly the future
[02:36] <azeem> ok, cool
[02:49] <cypher1> any one has any experience with acpi here ?
[02:50] <azeem> cypher1: possibly, please ask a real, detailed question
[02:50] <cypher1> how i do interpret /proc/acpi/event file
[02:51] <cypher1> or the output from acpid daemon when i have connected to it
[02:57] <mdz> Burgwork: <Burgwork>  if there any other mailing lists, I can do them as well
[03:28] <mhb> hey everyone :o)
[03:29] <mhb> A few day ago, I asked here when we (translators) finally get to start translating Edgy ... someone pointed me to the #ubuntu-translators mailing list, but I was sceptical about that ... and I was right.
[03:30] <mhb> sorry, mailing list is without #
[03:31] <Hobbsee> any core devs around here?  i'm looking for an uploader
[03:31] <mhb> so I hope someone is able to answer me today ... or at least point me to a better source
[03:32] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: you can only upload universe and multi?
[03:32] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: yeah
[03:32] <gnomefreak> ah
[03:32] <gnomefreak> :(
[03:32] <Hobbsee> dunno about multi
[03:34] <Hobbsee> i wonder if jdub is around....
[03:34] <gnomefreak> he just joined
[03:35] <Hobbsee> jdub_ did, yeah.
[03:35] <Hobbsee> hmmm.
[03:36] <gnomefreak> did you look at edgy-wallpaper <<thinks thats the name   its a text file :(
[03:36] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: nope.  what about it?
[03:36] <gnomefreak> it doesnt load any edgy wallpaper its the normal dapper ones
[03:37] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: it deals in gnome, i take it?  that's the stuff i avoid.
[03:37] <gnomefreak> i cant remember but maybe just gnome
[03:39] <HiddenWolf> gnomefreak, they just split it out to avoid having to upload -artwork all the time
[03:39] <gnomefreak> ah ok
[03:47] <bddebian> Morning
[03:48] <gnomefreak> morning
[03:48] <bddebian> Hi gnomefreak
[03:52] <gnomefreak> ty Hobbsee i didnt know if libpoppler was fixed or not
[03:52] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: :)  looked to be a bad mirror - that issue should never happen - it doesnt hard code the source package version
[03:53] <gnomefreak> ah
[03:53] <slomo_> Hobbsee, gnomefreak: what's with libpoppler?
[03:53] <gnomefreak> slomo_: nothing it was conflicting with kubuntu-desktop per a few bugs
[03:54] <slomo_> ok... i already thought there was something broken with it again for kde :)
[03:54] <gnomefreak> nope ;)
[03:54] <gnomefreak> 3.5.4 seems pretty stable here
[03:55] <Hobbsee> slomo_: heh.  
[03:55] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: except arts
[03:55] <TheMuso> n/c
[03:55] <gnomefreak> arts as in the sound server?
[03:55] <Hobbsee> yes
[03:55] <gnomefreak> hmm
[03:55] <slomo_> Hobbsee: kpdf is happy too now?
[03:58] <Hobbsee> slomo_: havent heard about kpdf - obviously no one's filed a bug under kubuntu-meta for it
[05:35] <^ohoel> how might I debug gksu/do failing to launch a command?
[05:59] <bluefoxicy> damn
[05:59] <bluefoxicy> Hobbsee and Burgundavia are nasty.
[06:00] <tseng> sigh.
[06:00] <bddebian> tseng: :-)
[06:01] <bluefoxicy> All I did was ask why all these open source projects have some specific "open source software for Women" thing to get girls working on open sources software, since you know, we let ANYONE contribute anyway
[06:01] <bluefoxicy> and they freaking flew off the handle and started being bitchy
[06:02] <mjg59> bluefoxicy: If you did some basic research, the reasoning might become clearer
[06:02] <bluefoxicy> mjg59:  that's not the point
[06:02] <mjg59> bluefoxicy: No, it's precisely the point
[06:02] <tseng> it is.
[06:02] <tseng> so let's drop it
[06:03] <tseng> this isnt even the right place, whether or not you have any idea what you are talking about.
[06:03] <bluefoxicy> No, the point is that we had a conversation like <me> why do we have a thing for getting girls to be developers when we already don't really do anything to stop them?  <girls> OMFG UR AN ASSHOLE!!!!1111
[06:03] <tseng> hah I bet that is what they said.
[06:03] <mjg59> bluefoxicy: Please stop now.
[06:03] <tseng> please take it.. nowhere.
[06:03] <bluefoxicy> I got a hostile and very unfriendly response and it was completely unwarranted.
[06:04] <tseng> maybe because she already has an idea about you
[06:04] <mjg59> tseng: You too
[06:05] <bddebian> Yeah tseng you troublemaker ;-)
[06:06] <bluefoxicy> mjg59:  Fine.  I'll deal with this later, when I can get a hold of both of them and beat them into the ground for being anal.
[06:07] <bddebian> bluefoxicy: Oh yeah, that sounds like a great plan
just perfect. yes, be more of a pig, lets see if that helps.</sarcasim>
[06:10] <mjg59> No, really, I was serious about not having this conversation here
[06:11] <bddebian> Hi Yagisan, Kamion
[06:11] <Yagisan> mjg59, yep. I'm off. I suspect you (or someone else) may end up moderating it off here anyway
[06:12] <Yagisan> bddebian, evening
[06:12] <bddebian> How can I disable GLw building in configure without a specific option?  Can I do something like --without-libGLw ?
[06:12] <bluefoxicy> mjg59:  and where else is it supposed to be held?  What do you usually do when someone attacks you for no reason?
[06:13] <bddebian> I can do --without-MESA but do I really want to turn off all of MESA?
[06:14] <azeem> bddebian: all the --without-foo flags are package dependant
[06:14] <bddebian> Crud
[06:15] <bddebian> So I have to kill MESA support to build xbvl?
[06:16] <azeem> I do't know
[06:16] <azeem> why do you want to disable GLw building?
[06:17] <bddebian> azeem: Because we have removed the GLw libraries
[06:17] <azeem> then you probably need to hack configure.in or configure.ac
[06:18] <bddebian> :-(
[06:18] <azeem> well, perhaps there is a configure option already, did you check configure --help?
[06:19] <bddebian> Yeah, nothing specific for GLw so I am reading configure and it looks like --with-MESA or --without-MESA are my only options :(
[06:19] <bddebian> Unless I pull out -lGLw from configure but I'm worried about more downstream affects
[06:22] <bddebian> Bah, I guess I'll move on to another merge
[06:40] <siretart> what is GLw after all?
[06:46] <bddebian> Mesa Open GL widgets of some kind
[07:28] <wasabi> apt could use some better dpkg healing properties...
[07:28] <wasabi> like if a package fails, continue trying to set up the rest.
[07:36] <mdz> wasabi: s/apt/apt-get/
[07:36] <mdz> other frontends already do a better job of that
[07:38] <wasabi> k.
[07:45] <gnomefreak> libpoppler was fixed with the klibs issues right?
[08:30] <bddebian> re
[08:56] <bluefoxicy> what?  Tomboy got added to ubuntu-desktop?  Doesn't that mean mono is now in the desktop seed?
[09:02] <bddebian> bluefoxicy: Do you not read ubuntu-devel ML?
[09:02] <bluefoxicy> bddebian:  good point.  *C-A-Tabs*
[09:03] <HiddenWolf> u-devel ML has been extremely tiresome lately.
[09:03] <HiddenWolf> Can't blame anyone for giving up on it. ;)
[09:05] <bddebian> HiddenWolf: Aye :-)
[09:19] <HiddenWolf> It's odd that people can get so emotional over a computer language
[09:20] <bluefoxicy> virtual machine
[09:20] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy, the stuff it's coded in. :P
[09:20] <HiddenWolf> I'm a simple old dog, the stuff that it's coded in is the language to me.
[09:22] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  it's the virtual machine
[09:23] <bluefoxicy> a layer between the program and the OS that involves generating code at runtime, completely removing any advantage of a more efficient compiler (aside from that the VM's code, for its 1% of the time spent executing, is faster because of smarter gcc)
[09:23] <bluefoxicy> They generally waste cycles doing runtime profiling, which is useful for optimizing programs based on use; however, the only optimizations that can be done based on that information are moving chunks of code around to create better cache locality, and reordering conditional branches so the most likely one is evaluated first
[09:25] <bluefoxicy> It's also just in general hard for me to figure out the security concerns associated with a virtual machine; and just adds an extra layer to that stack (if your OS has a hole in it; if your libs have holes; if your <VIRTUAL MACHINE> has holes in it; if your program has holes in it; then you have an open vuln)
[09:27] <bluefoxicy> It doesn't really bring ... anything useful.  A couple minor disadvantages, no real advantages (you could always compile to bytecode, then compile the bytecode on the target platform to native, and ship the native code; so the classical 'advantage' is kind of a red herring; also see LLVM)
[09:27] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  at any rate, I just hate virtual machines.
[09:27] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy, well, we seem to be stuck with it.
[09:28] <bluefoxicy> that does not make it any better.
[09:28] <bluefoxicy> We seem to be stuck with Windows on all computers at Best Buy/Circuit City/etc too.
[09:28] <bluefoxicy> or if you really want to be a hard-core gamer or whatever.
[09:29] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy I guess it'll only get worse as schools start teaching .net :P
[09:29] <bbrazil> the java is bad enough as is
[09:29] <bluefoxicy> HiddenWolf:  I try to equivilate mono with wine.
[09:30] <bluefoxicy> It's for running Windows crap.
[09:30] <HiddenWolf> bluefoxicy, tell that to fspot, tomboy, beagle and banshee. :(
[09:30] <bluefoxicy> My operating system can get any program running that's supposed to run on it kthx.
[09:30] <jono> hey
[09:30] <mjr> I try to ignore reality too sometimes :] 
[09:31] <wasabi> bluefoxicy: There's logically no difference between mono and python and perl and bash.
[09:32] <wasabi> It's a set of code designed to be resused to solve general computing problems once.
[09:32] <wasabi> Instead of in each app.
[09:32] <bluefoxicy> wasabi:  well, there's the difference that python, perl, and bash do not generate native code on the fly
[09:32] <bluefoxicy> wasabi:  i.e. they don't pretend to be compilers and operating systems
[09:32] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: if you want to be pedantic about it, perl also runs on a vm
[09:32] <wasabi> bluefoxicy: That's not entirely accurate. ;)
[09:33] <wasabi> Psyco for Python.
[09:33] <bluefoxicy> Chipzz:  perl compiles its scripts to bytecode and interprets that to avoid parsing text over and over.
[09:33] <bluefoxicy> I'd expect Python to do the same... bash nah.
[09:33] <wasabi> Blue, I believe perl uses a jit to assembly native instructions.
[09:33] <wasabi> Am I wrong?
[09:34] <Chipzz> wasabi: I think not
[09:34] <wasabi> Parrot.
[09:34] <Chipzz> wasabi: (that you're wtong)
[09:34] <bluefoxicy> wasabi:  I've run perl scripts under PaX with full restrictions; this will kill anything that tries to A) create writable, executable memory; B) add PROT_EXEC to non-executable memory
[09:34] <Chipzz> wrong
[09:34] <wasabi> or something
[09:34] <bluefoxicy> wasabi:  in short, I've run this stuff in environments where that's fundamentally impossible.
[09:35] <wasabi> What's you're point anyways? Heh.
[09:35] <bluefoxicy> I wouldn't write an office suite or anything big in Python either though, to be fair.
[09:35] <wasabi> It's the same stuff the linker does.
[09:35] <wasabi> Take templates of bits of code and assembly them in memory.
[09:35] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: to be fair, it wouldn't matter
[09:35] <bluefoxicy> actually in byte code interpretation it doesn't really assemble them, it just reads them and triggers interpreter functions that carry out their functions
[09:35] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: performance is highly bound with underlying GUI libs
[09:36] <bluefoxicy> like it'll read a bytecode instruction representing 'substr()' and call 'interpret_substr()' with proper args or such.
[09:36] <wasabi> bluefoxicy: I still don't see your point.
[09:36] <bluefoxicy> whereas a JIT will generate code that sets up a call frame and does such.
[09:36] <Chipzz> bluefoxicy: we all know what a frigging interpreter does
[09:37] <wasabi> Do you have a problem with people coding in new and unique ways to get work done faster?
[09:37] <wasabi> =)
[09:37] <Chipzz> it still does not cause much overhead in 99% of all cases
[09:37] <bluefoxicy> and at any rate, you've still now got another program who's job is to interpret, convert to code, and optimize when you use JIT
[09:37] <mjr> well, if it's the JITting that you have a problem with, you _can_ always use the mono interpreter...
[09:37] <wasabi> Are you advocating we all program in raw ASM or what?
[09:37] <wasabi> mjr: that's unmaintained.
[09:37] <bluefoxicy> so when a new optimization goes into gcc, it doesn't go into the JIT; when it goes into the JIT, it doesn't go into GCC
[09:37] <Chipzz> wasabi: I have when it involves the core gnome desktop
[09:38] <wasabi> Chipzz: I hate it when it involves the core gnome PLATFORM. Desktop? I don't think anybody really cares about that anyways. ;)
[09:38] <bluefoxicy> so now what are we doing, duplicating work to waste time making another tool to do the same job, except to do it later?
[09:38] <mjr> wasabi, is it? ah well, same difference to me.
[09:38] <Chipzz> wasabi: there's a difference between the apps that go into the core gnome desktop and ubuntu
[09:38] <bluefoxicy> mjr:  the mono interpreter will have the same problem as using python for a large application:  you'll now be interpreting data, which costs cycles over using native code.
[09:39] <Chipzz> ubuntu can say: we ship with tomboy installed by default, ergo minimal memory reqs are such and such
[09:39] <wasabi> Chipzz: Sort of my point. Regardless whether "tomboy" is accepted into the Desktop or some crap won't effect distros... who might distribute it anyways or not.
[09:39] <mjr> bluefoxicy, indeed, thus the JITting is simply an implementation detail, an optimization
[09:39] <wasabi> The Platform (the core APIs) should be plain C, because that platform has a requirement of running on embedded devices, and it's not practical otherwise.
[09:40] <bluefoxicy> mjr:  and JITing involves generating native code from an intermediate representation; interestingly, GCC turns C, C++, ada, etc code into an intermediate representation and generates native code from it.
[09:40] <Chipzz> wasabi: yes, but as an end-user opensource should enable me to say: fuck what the ubuntu developers think, I apt-get remove tomboy and can run gnome on lower end desktopa
[09:40] <mjr> indeed it does
[09:40] <Chipzz> desktops
[09:40] <bbrazil> virtually all compilers use an intermediate representation
[09:40] <wasabi> Chipzz: Exactly. 
[09:41] <bluefoxicy> mjr:  In the process, both of these have to perform some sort of optimization; although I guess in the case of Mono the bytecode is for another processor (which only exists in theory) so it can be pre-optimized by the mono compiler (which is a mono project, not gcc)
[09:41] <wasabi> Chipzz: And it will regardless whether Gnome "blesses" tomboy or not. Which is why I think this argument is moot.
[09:41] <Chipzz> wasabi: and really, what the FUCK does gnome gain by 
[09:41] <Chipzz> "blessing" tomboy?
[09:41] <bluefoxicy> mjr:  so yeah.  We're back to implementing gcc from scratch, again.  Except we defer the final steps to the user and perform them an infinite number of times instead of doing it once early.
[09:41] <Chipzz> they pull another app into their release cycle, making it more dificult for theirselves
[09:41] <wasabi> Beats me. I think there's some concept of a Gnome "Recommended Desktop Bundle" or something.
[09:41] <wasabi> Which nobody pays attention to anyways.
[09:41] <wasabi> But Gnome feels is somehow important. :)
[09:42] <bluefoxicy> .... I still have not settled on a real point in this conversation; I'm just floating between multiple points of reason.  This is getting annoying.
[09:42] <Chipzz> wasabi: tomboy won't be any less (or any more for that matter) of an app if it isn't included in gnome
[09:42] <wasabi> Ayup.
[09:42] <wasabi> I'd say it'll be less, since it's release cycle will be tied. ;)
[09:42] <wasabi> Depending on who you ask.
[09:42] <Chipzz> *g*
[09:43] <wasabi> I sort of think Gnome should constrain itself to "blessing" things which have some relevance in building other applications against.
[09:43] <Chipzz> that was the point I was trying to make on desktop-devel; gnome doesn't /need/ *to include* these apps
[09:43] <Chipzz> *to include* being the imperative words
[09:43] <Chipzz> gnome does need these apps
[09:44] <Chipzz> but as tomboy and a lot of other apps are evidence of: they DO get written anyway
[09:44] <bluefoxicy> I wonder if Linus will bless Xen
[09:44] <Chipzz> weither gnome blesses them or not
[09:44] <Chipzz> but I do think deskbar was a very dangerous precedent
[09:45] <HiddenWolf> why is it dangerous?
[09:45] <bluefoxicy> It's like a ninja
[09:45] <bluefoxicy> it'll flip out and kill someone.
[09:45] <Chipzz> because people may start thinking: it's ok to start writing core parts in higher level languages
[09:46] <HiddenWolf> Chipzz I wonder if that can be avoided all that much longer
[09:46] <Chipzz> HiddenWolf: I wonder if everything that is needed in the core hasn't allready been written
[09:47] <Chipzz> the reason people don't write stuff in C anymore is more likely that the stuff that does get written in higher languages is non-essential to absolutely everybody
[09:47] <Sesse> hiya. would anybody mind syncing evms 2.5.5-11 from debian into ubuntu? mdz helped me doing the last bits of the merge, but seems to have disappeared before my upload
[09:48] <Chipzz> "it's been done"
[09:49] <Sesse> Chipzz: why the quotes? :-P
[09:50] <Chipzz> because I consider it more of a fact (or a statemenet) than something I'm saying literally
[09:51] <Chipzz> we are in a "everything that needs to be written in C *has* been written in C"-situation
[09:51] <Sesse> oh
[09:51] <Chipzz> unless you want to start talking new idea's a la "gnome 3.0"
[09:54] <HiddenWolf> Chipzz, I doubt gnome3 will ever happen, at least in it's current definition
[09:55] <Chipzz> HiddenWolf: exactly what definition are you referring to?
[09:56] <HiddenWolf> Chipzz, "stuff that can't happen without breaking gnome2 compatibility" seems to be the general concensus, last I checked.
[10:06] <robertj> I am, however, looking forward to the day beagle doesn't suck and that it can be used to create a recent files "Place"
[10:07] <HiddenWolf> robertj, hopefully we'll get tracker for that
[10:07] <robertj> tracker?
[10:07] <slomo_> if tracker can do what it promises
[10:08] <HiddenWolf> slomo_ it appears to do so.
[10:08] <robertj> URL me please
[10:08] <slomo_> HiddenWolf: did you already test it? :)
[10:09] <HiddenWolf> robertj, it's on freedesktop
[10:09] <HiddenWolf> slomo_: a while back I did
[10:09] <robertj> thanks, I'm a bit behind on my internet reading
[10:09] <robertj> there are apprently still parts I have yet to get to ;)
[10:09] <HiddenWolf> robertj jamiemcc.livejournal too
[10:10] <slomo_> HiddenWolf: don't understand me wrong, i would like to see something good for searching whether it is beagle or tracker... but nobody i talked to before did actually test it but only said that this thing is perfect ;)
[10:10] <slomo_> HiddenWolf: but if you tested it... fine :) would you be interested in packaging it maybe? ;)
[10:10] <HiddenWolf> slomo_, hell no. It's finally getting some pull, let's see a release first. :)
[10:11] <HiddenWolf> It's still one guy's private baby at this point
[10:12] <robertj> btw, has there been a jihad yet over whether we should list folders above or intermixed with files :)
[10:12] <slomo_> robertj: not that i know... but i prefer the first ;)
[10:12] <HiddenWolf> robertj, please, can there be some things left intact for us old farts?
[10:12] <robertj> hehe :)
[10:13] <gnomefreak> slomo_: do you remember the poppler bug?
[10:13] <slomo_> HiddenWolf: ok, so let's see who wins this race :) i would prefer tracker if it is really what it promises to be and better than beagle...
[10:13] <slomo_> gnomefreak: which one?
[10:13] <robertj> HiddenWolf: I'd support moving them back to their own column :)
[10:13] <gnomefreak> slomo_: kubuntu-desktop wont install due to depends
[10:13] <HiddenWolf> robertj, I'm used to the explorer/nautilus-browser, and I like it that way
[10:13] <slomo_> gnomefreak: url?
[10:13] <slomo_> gnomefreak: or bugnumber? ;)
[10:14] <gnomefreak> bug 53465
[10:14] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53465 in poppler "Cannot be installed. This breaks kubuntu-desktop!" [Untriaged,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53465
[10:14] <robertj> I actually do to unless im looking by date
[10:14] <gnomefreak> slomo_: i have thrown everything i can think of at him
[10:14] <HiddenWolf> Then again, I'm a freak. I put things into their own folders by topic/subject. I like a clean hierarchical filesystem.
[10:14] <robertj> rare is the day I want to manipulate a file more than an hour old
[10:14] <robertj> if its more than an hour old its probably been open for the last month
[10:14] <slomo_> gnomefreak: he seems to have a broken dpkg or apt database or something
[10:14] <slomo_> gnomefreak: "libpoppler1-qt: Depends: libpoppler1 (= 0.5.1-0ubuntu7)" <--- not true for edgy
[10:15] <gnomefreak> hes not on edgy
[10:15] <robertj> HiddenWolf: do you have a /.hidden too ;)
[10:15] <HiddenWolf> robertj, I just reinstalled my system last wednesday, and have been away from home since thursday. I'll get there. :)
[10:16] <HiddenWolf> Which by the way fixed a half-dozen bugs I was experiencing. :P
[10:16] <slomo_> gnomefreak: oh... no idea then...
[10:16] <slomo_> gnomefreak: but "## Automatix sources.list" looks like the cause
[10:17] <gnomefreak> i was thinking that too
[10:17] <robertj> is Uslab showing promise? I haven't given it a try yet
[10:18] <slomo_> gnomefreak: he probably had the xgl repositories in his sources.list, added by automatix... or automatix broke something else ;) at least all bugs that contained the word automatix i heard of were caused by automatix ;)
[10:18] <gnomefreak> slomo_: yeah im not a fan of it either ;)  i will wait and see if my sources.list file fixes him
[10:18] <^ohoel> well he obviously lied when he said he had only used official repos
[10:19] <robertj> oh dear, google code hosting is horribly slow
[10:19] <gnomefreak> ^ohoel: yep
[10:19] <robertj> I'm nearing the 30 minute mark on this 200k, 50 file import
[10:20] <HiddenWolf> robertj, peanuts. I backed up like 190GB to format last wednesday. :P
[10:20] <pygi> sivang, poke ;)
[10:20] <robertj> HiddenWolf: to google code ;)
[10:20] <robertj> no wonder its slow
[10:21] <HiddenWolf> robertj, heh
[11:40] <gnomefreak> slomo_: you here?
[11:40] <slomo_> yes
[11:40] <gnomefreak> slomo_: can i subscribe you to this poppler 
[11:41] <gnomefreak> bug*
[11:42] <slomo_> hm why? i can't do anything about that bug ;)
[11:42] <gnomefreak> this guy seems to think its still broken he is not wanting to here its his fault (in a round about nice way)
[11:42] <gnomefreak> slomo_: oh?
[11:42] <gnomefreak> nvm i thought you were maintainer
[11:43] <slomo_> no, i only touched it in edgy so far :) and this is not really a poppler bug anyway
[11:43] <gnomefreak> oh ok
[11:44] <slomo_> i don't think it is a bug at all... you could ask him for apt-cache policy on both packages maybe
[11:45] <slomo_> both should have exactly the same version as installable candidate from official ubuntu repositories
[11:46] <slomo_> and that some thing thinks that he has 0.5.3-0ubuntu1 is a clear sign that he didn't use official dapper repositories as we got 0.5.3 only a week ago
[11:48] <gnomefreak> well hes not taking that from me
[11:48] <slomo_> ok, i answered there
[11:49] <gnomefreak> ok
[11:49] <gnomefreak> ty
[11:49] <slomo_> i bet he had that broken xgl repository ;)
[11:49] <gnomefreak> that would do it but remember only official repos were used
[11:50] <slomo_> i think he had them enabled at some point, updated a few packages and switched back then which doesn't automatically downgrade anything
[11:50] <gnomefreak> read what he last said (something like your blind only official repos were used)
[11:50] <gnomefreak> i made my final comment on that bug i tried my hardest to help him
[11:51] <gnomefreak> even hobbsee tried
[11:52] <slomo_> hehe... i always get a bit angry when i see a bug report where xgl or automatix or compiz is mentioned in ;) seems almost always one of these things is the problem...
[11:52] <bmonty> bug #?
[11:53] <gnomefreak> bug 53465
[11:53] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 53465 in poppler "Cannot be installed. This breaks kubuntu-desktop!" [Untriaged,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/53465
[11:53] <gnomefreak> you mean like xgl screwed up gtk in edgy ;)
[11:54] <slomo_> or random applications crashes, nobody can reproduce it... and after a few replies the original reporter says he used xgl and tries to disable it and everything is fine again ;)
[11:54] <gnomefreak> yep
[11:56] <gnomefreak> ty bmonty maybe he will listen to you
[11:56] <bmonty> gnomefreak: I'm not going to comment on the bug, I justed wanted to read what you guys were talking about :)
[11:57] <gnomefreak> someone did
[11:57] <bmonty> slomo
[11:57] <gnomefreak> oh ok
[11:57] <gnomefreak> ok ill brb gotta figure out bug in OOo :(
[11:59] <gnomefreak> ok found it ;)