[08:33] <imbrandon> @schedule us/central
[08:33] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 01 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board
[10:29] <Seveas> Burgwork, re: your blog: I would LOVE it if it were easy to use gai to add a repository -- like some sort of deb file containing repo info, gpg key and .desktop files 
[02:32] <imbrandon> @schedule
[02:32] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Aug 20:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Aug 12:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Aug 20:00: Technical Board
[07:56] <zul> @schedule montreal
[07:56] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 01 Aug 16:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Aug 08:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Aug 16:00: Technical Board
[08:21] <Seveas> @now amsterdam
[08:21] <Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: August 01 2006, 20:21:22 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 1 hour 38 minutes
[09:05] <Toadstool> @schedule paris
[09:05] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 01 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 02 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 03 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board
[09:13] <mc44> @now
[09:13] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 01 2006, 19:13:35 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 46 minutes
[09:38] <pitti> hi
[09:39] <zul> hey pitti
[09:41] <ogra> :)
[09:41] <pitti> thanks, we might need them
[09:41] <ogra> yup :)
[09:41] <pitti> although I had good echo on my mail
[09:41] <pitti> not much, though
[09:41] <zul> which email?
[09:42] <ogra> i agree that its no suitable to enable it by default ... (even though i often thought about it for ltsp stuff)
[09:42] <Toadstool> zul: the one about zeroconf, I suppose :)
[09:42] <Toadstool> hi here
[09:43] <zul> heh i tuned out for zeroconf a while ago
[09:43] <Toadstool> zul: just a guess as avahi is listed in this meeting agenda ;)
[10:01] <mjg59> Evening
[10:01] <Keybuk> do we have an mdz?
[10:01] <mjg59> mdz: Here?
[10:02] <mjg59> Seemingly not right now
[10:02] <Keybuk> SMS sent
[10:03] <smurf> .. how do you send a short message service? I tend to restrict myself to actual short messages. ;-)
[10:03] <Keybuk> smurf: pedant
[10:04] <Gloubiboulga> evening all
[10:04] <smurf> Keybuk: language is strange
[10:05] <mjg59> Keybuk: Shall we get on with it?
[10:05] <zul> afternoon
[10:05] <Keybuk> yup
[10:05] <mjg59> Ok
[10:05] <Keybuk> no reply, let's get on with it
[10:05] <mjg59> So, core-dev members?
[10:06] <mjg59> Looks like Guavin and Hobbsee
[10:06] <Gloubiboulga> yes
[10:06] <ogra> seems Hobbsse didnt wake up in time
[10:06] <Keybuk> Gloubiboulga: you first then
[10:06] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: Ok, let's go with you
[10:06] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: Brief introduction?
[10:06] <Keybuk> (if somebody can ping hobbsse, please do so)
[10:06] <Gloubiboulga> ok, here is my wiki page : http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gauvain
[10:06] <Gloubiboulga> (LP account linked on it)
[10:07] <Gloubiboulga> My point with becoming an core-dev is to be able to work on xubuntu
[10:07] <Gloubiboulga> i've already worked on it when I became a MOTU, but all the packages are in main now
[10:07] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: How many Xubuntu core-devs are there right now?
[10:08] <ogra> one
[10:08] <Gloubiboulga> mjg59, one: janimo 
[10:08] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: Ok, so that's a pretty good argument :)
[10:08] <Gloubiboulga> hehe
[10:08] <janimo> we'll hopefully grow by 100% tonight
[10:08] <mjg59> janimo: How would you rate Gloubiboulga's contributions?
[10:08] <janimo> great
[10:08] <janimo> he has helped a lot
[10:09] <janimo> and having him work on main packages would helpe even more
[10:09] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: You mention in your wiki page that you think xubuntu is lacking in some areas. How would you improve those?
[10:10] <Gloubiboulga> mjg59, in two ways: 1. coding (ourself and working with upstream), 2. using already exinstant tools in ubuntu
[10:10] <mjg59> How close is your relationship with upstream?
[10:10] <Gloubiboulga> 2. is not always easy, since we try to avoid gnome libs
[10:11] <ogra> Gloubiboulga, how do you plan to avoid code duplication in the future ? there were some issues in the past ...
[10:11] <Gloubiboulga> I have not a strong relationship with upstream, since Jani did all the job until now :)
[10:11] <Gloubiboulga> ogra, cdbs multibuild is the key IMO
[10:11] <ogra> patching the gnome deps out of the apps ?
[10:12] <Gloubiboulga> several apps could be build with and without gnome deps
[10:12] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: How familiar are you with building multiple binaries without using cdbs?
[10:12] <mdz> mjg59,keybuk: morning
[10:12] <Gloubiboulga> ogra, we'd like to avoid this as much as possible
[10:12] <janimo> ogra, that pacthing out is fairly routine. We have yet to come up with the CDBS magic
[10:12] <Gloubiboulga> mjg59, I've worked on the goffice and gnumeric multibuild
[10:12] <Gloubiboulga> (plain debhelper)
[10:13] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: Ok, cool
[10:13] <Gloubiboulga> getting the same result with CDBS is still a problem
[10:14] <Gloubiboulga> but I'm sure we'll find solutions (working with jbailey maybe?)
[10:14] <mjg59> Gloubiboulga: So while there's some desire to avoid Xubuntu turning into something that's effectively identical to gnome, presumably you're keen on supporting the same basic infrastructure? (Stuff like hal, for instance)
[10:14] <dholbach> I'm happy with Gloubiboulga's work on goffice and gnumeric - there were some issues, he worked hard on getting them fixed, did the merges with Debian and talked to the Debian maintainer to get the patch merged back (as it was not trivial)
[10:14] <pitti> Gloubiboulga: it's not a problem (it's not more effort than with plain debhelper), but not as convenient as it could be
[10:15] <Gloubiboulga> mjg59, sure, Xubuntu is ubuntu based, we don't forget that
[10:15] <janimo> mjg59: we already depend on hal for PM and removable volumes
[10:16] <janimo> and soon laptop keys I hope
[10:16] <Gloubiboulga> pitti, we wan't something that can easily maintainable, since gnome packagers will work on the same packages too
[10:16] <mjg59> Ok, I think I'm done
[10:16] <mjg59> Keybuk, mdz: ?
[10:16] <janimo> and it's ok with being almost identical to gnome as far as looks and some features go, if we can get there with less resource usage
[10:17] <seb128> Gloubiboulga: cdbs is easy to maintain ;)
[10:17] <Keybuk> Gloubiboulga: what kind of integration with things like network manager, gnome power manager, etc. do you plan for XFCE?
[10:17] <Keybuk> we're increasingly using these in Ubuntu
[10:17] <pitti> Gloubiboulga: let's talk about this in a separate discussion, I'm sure we can figure something out
[10:17] <Gloubiboulga> seb128, sure, but with lots and lots of hacks for the multibuilds, it might be a little harder ;)
[10:17] <seb128> Gloubiboulga: not that many hack, it's shorted than the debhelper variant
[10:18] <seb128> anyway, that's not really the topic now ;)
[10:19] <Gloubiboulga> Keybuk, well, that's part of the "avoid duplication" spec. gnome power management for example could be easily used in xubuntu
[10:19] <ogra> the problem will rather be maintaining the patches than the build system i guess :)
[10:19] <janimo> Keybuk: I have looked at both and would use them if we can get them build gnome-less. They both dep on libgnomeui which needs all the rest of gnome libs
[10:19] <Keybuk> doesn't that break their GNOME functionality?
[10:20] <seb128> Gloubiboulga: it's using gconf, isn't that an issue for you?
[10:20] <janimo> Keybuk: some apps only depend on gnome libs because of legacy code. Some uses are of course valid
[10:20] <mdz> gconf is fairly light as the issues go
[10:20] <Gloubiboulga> seb128, no, we have gconf too on xubuntu
[10:20] <janimo> seb128: we consider gconf ok for now, compared to the rest of the libs
[10:20] <janimo> it is used by gdm anyway
[10:21] <seb128> ok, I though you were discussing with mvo some time ago about getting update tools working without gconf or something like that
[10:21] <seb128> no, gdm doesn't use gconf
[10:21] <seb128> but it should, the gdm.conf is not fun to maintain :p
[10:21] <janimo> Keybuk: I try to bring this up on gnome-devel, there's an ongoing thread which touches on libgnomeui in particluar
[10:21] <janimo> seb128: yes update-manager work w/o gconf
[10:22] <janimo> that was an issue because of the gnome python bindings, which even if you only use gconf-python brings all the libs since the bindings are monolithic
[10:22] <seb128> right
[10:22] <mdz> heh
[10:22] <janimo> seb128: gdm uses gconf via keyring or some other dependency then
[10:23] <janimo> for gdm-setup
[10:23] <Gloubiboulga> hi mdz 
[10:23] <airjump> hello
[10:23] <seb128> janimo: I doubt of it
[10:24] <Keybuk> mdz: any questions?
[10:24] <seb128> janimo: let's have a look on that later, but gdm doesn't use the keyring nor gconf and they got ride of some of the libgnome* functions they were using
[10:24] <janimo> seb128: hmm, something used gconf in dapper, via gdm. Looks like not keyring then
[10:24] <mjg59> seb128: janimo: Can we leave this until later?
[10:25] <janimo> seb128: I know I sent the patch for getting rid of libgnome*
[10:25] <janimo> mjg59: sure soryy
[10:25] <seb128> mjg59: that's just what I said
[10:25] <mjg59> No problem :)
[10:25] <mjg59> mdz: Going once...
[10:26] <mjg59> mdz: Twice...
[10:26] <mdz> mjg59: stand by
[10:26] <airjump> bye
[10:29] <mdz> mjg59: ok
[10:29] <mjg59> mdz: Any questions?
[10:30] <mdz> mjg59: settled out of band
[10:30] <mjg59> Ok. Votes?
[10:30] <Keybuk> +1
[10:30] <mdz> +1
[10:31] <ogra> Gloubiboulga, congrats !
[10:31] <Gloubiboulga> thanks :)
[10:31] <Toadstool> Gloubiboulga: yay!!! congrats' :)
[10:31] <dholbach> congratulations Gloubiboulga!
[10:31] <janimo> Gloubiboulga: \o/
[10:31] <imbrandon> Gloubiboulga: congrats ;)
[10:31] <Gloubiboulga> dholbach, janimo, thanks for the support
[10:31] <pitti> Gloubiboulga: welcome!
[10:31] <Keybuk> Hobbsee hasn't woken up, so we'll move onto ubuntu-dev candidates
[10:31] <Gloubiboulga> thanks pitti, Toadstool, imbrandon 
[10:32] <Gloubiboulga> and ogra!
[10:32] <mjg59> Various ubuntu-dev candidates on the list
[10:32] <mjg59> Any of you here?
[10:32] <Keybuk> ttyfscker, azeem, imbrandon, tepsipakki, "Juliano Bastos"
[10:33] <imbrandon> ...
[10:33] <Keybuk> azeem: you first then
[10:33] <bddebian> azeem++\
[10:33] <mjg59> azeem: Brief introduction to yourself?
[10:33] <azeem> I am Michael Banck, my wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichaelBanck.  I am a Debian Developer for a couple of years now and Ubuntu Member for some time as well.
[10:33] <azeem> I've been helping people in #ubuntu-motu mostly, and coordinated chemistry-related UbuntuScience packages with Jordan Mantha in Debian.  I have also tried to better the Debian<->Ubuntu relationship where possible. 
[10:33] <azeem> I am applying for ubuntu-dev to integrate the opensync framework (together with lifeless) and maintain the various chemistry packages in universe (together with UbuntuScience).
[10:33] <Keybuk> azeem: your wiki page claims you do not plan to do any generic MOTU work at this point ?
[10:33] <azeem> .
[10:34] <azeem> Keybuk: I'm pretty occupied with my PhD right now
[10:34] <mjg59> azeem: So you're mostly planning on focusing on a specific small area?
[10:35] <Keybuk> azeem: have you done much work with the MOTU to date?
[10:35] <ogra> azeem is around since a very long time in -motu and was helping a lot of newcomers with basic packaging ...
[10:35] <mdz> azeem: a similar set of packages to what you work with in Debian?
[10:36] <azeem> mdz: well, not the Hurd stuff, for starters
[10:36] <ogra> (very long time == nearly as long as the channel exists)
[10:36] <bddebian> haha
[10:37] <azeem> mjg59: I'm trying to concentrate on opensync and MotuScience for now, yes
[10:37] <ogra> i think dholbach can confirm that ...
[10:37] <mjg59> azeem: Sounds good to me
[10:37] <mdz> azeem: what motivated you to apply for official status at this time after having participated in the development community for some time now?
[10:37] <dholbach> azeem has been around for a long time, although i didn't work with him (which as ogra told me might be due to different sleeping patterns).
[10:37] <azeem> Keybuk: I fixed about a handful of MotuScience Malone bugs on the Debian side coordinating with LaserJock
[10:38] <dholbach> ogra:  :-)
[10:38] <azeem> mdz: we've now got the opensync stuff in Debian/Ubuntu, and I'd like to be able to push/merge/sync them on both sides if one freezes
[10:39] <Keybuk> azeem: lifeless is already a member of ubuntu-dev, no?
[10:39] <azeem> Keybuk: yes
[10:41] <Keybuk> to be honest, at the moment, my concern is that you won't have the time to do much work in ubuntu-dev
[10:41] <Keybuk> and that may mean you don't keep up with other changes that are necesseary
[10:41] <bddebian> Any less than half the people that have "abandoned" us?
[10:41] <azeem> Keybuk: what kind of changes?
[10:43] <Keybuk> any; policy changes in packaging, server policy, configuration policy, etc.
[10:43] <azeem> ah, ok
[10:44] <bddebian> Keybuk: Seriously, any less than the rest of us MOTU's?
[10:45] <LaserJock> azeem has been very instrumental in my packaging (he is sponsoring my packages in Debian) and has done a great job of working on the Debian/Ubuntu relationship, especially for science packages
[10:46] <Keybuk> mjg59, mdz: any questions?
[10:46] <LaserJock> he clearly knows what he's doing, has helped out quite a bit in #ubuntu-motu and while he isn't as active as crimsun or bddebian perhaps, it seems to me he keeps up as well as most MOTUs with what's going on in Ubuntu development
[10:46] <lucas> I think that it's easy to get tired while doing MOTU work. People with limited time resources are probably much less likely to burn out. Also, it scales well, so it's not a problem to have many people dedicating only a small amount of time.
[10:47] <mdz> azeem: in which ways do you feel that the relationship between Debian developers and Ubuntu developers could be improved?
[10:47] <azeem> mdz: by mediating where possible
[10:47] <Keybuk> azeem: could you give an example?
[10:47] <azeem> e.g., yesterday, there was another mob in #debian.de when they again found out they have "accounts" on launchpad
[10:48] <azeem> so siretart and me tried to cool them down
[10:48] <azeem> and I subsequently talked to the people in #launchpad whether anything could be done to make the "not affiliated with canonical or ubuntu" more explicit for those kind of people pages on launchpad
[10:50] <mdz> azeem: do you think that that concern affects launchpad more than other directories of open source contributors?
[10:51] <azeem> mdz: I think that pages like "https://launchpad.net/people/panthera/+packages" are somewhat misleading, yes
[10:52] <azeem> personally, I don't think it is problem, but I can see how some people who are not Ubuntu-friendly in the first place react strongly to them
[10:52] <Hobbsee> morning all, did i miss the meeting?
[10:52] <ogra> nope
[10:52] <Hobbsee> oh yay :)
[10:52] <raphink> Hobbsee: the meeting is going on now
[10:52] <azeem> most of the time, it is due to missing or false information, and I am trying to set the record straight where possible
[10:52] <mdz> azeem: it's essentially just parsing a Packages file, though
[10:53] <mjg59> mdz: It does seem to suggest that the developer uploaded that package to Ubuntu, which isn't entirely accurate
[10:53] <Hobbsee> raphink: cool, okay. we got some current logs here?  (more current than fabbione's)
[10:53] <azeem> mdz: I understand
[10:53] <azeem> mdz: but "panthera" never created an account on launchpad
[10:53] <mjg59> But I think that's outside the scope of this section of the meeting
[10:53] <azeem> right
[10:53] <mdz> azeem: what sort of response did you receive from the launchpad team?
[10:54] <azeem> kiko agreed that this might be misleading and suggested some better wording
[10:55] <azeem> e.g. saying that this is not a real account, I think
[10:55] <mdz> I think that qualifying it according to the source of informaiton would probably be sufficient
[10:56] <mdz> if that page indicated that it was documenting package maintenance in Debian unstable, that would be an improvement
[10:57] <mjg59> mdz: Is launchpad considered part of the domain that the tech board have influence over?
[10:57] <raphink> hi mjg59
[10:57] <raphink> oops
[10:57] <raphink> sorry
[10:57] <mdz> mjg59: sometimes
[10:57] <mjg59> mdz: Heh
[10:58] <mjg59> mdz: My feeling is that we're not going to get much further on this topic without involving the launchpad guys, which is probably a conversation for a later date
[10:58] <ogra> if you look at the package itself its even worse ... https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/breezy/+source/acroread/7.0.1-0.0.ubuntu1 he's listed as maintainer and creator ... which would also indicate that he uploaded it to ubuntu 
[10:59] <ogra> (indeed that happens through teh sync ... but people might not know this)
[10:59] <siretart> ogra: https://launchpad.net/people/panthera/+packages does as well suggest that he uploaded it to ubuntu (at least for me)
[10:59] <mdz> mjg59: one worth having, certainly
[10:59] <ogra> siretart, yes. thats what we discussed before
[10:59] <mdz> moving on then?
[11:00] <mjg59> I think we're done for questioning?
[11:00] <mdz> I am
[11:00] <Hobbsee> (sorry for my lateness - 6am meetings are nasty)
[11:00] <mdz> Keybuk: anything else?
[11:01] <mdz> ok, votes
[11:02] <mjg59> +1 for me
[11:02] <mdz> +1
[11:03] <Keybuk> 0 from me, given limited time
[11:03] <ogra> welcome azeem !! 
[11:03] <ogra> finally :)
[11:03] <imbrandon> congrats azeem
[11:03] <azeem> \o/
[11:03] <LaserJock> \o/
[11:03] <siretart> welcome azeem :)
[11:03] <pygi> \o/
[11:03] <raphink> :)
[11:03] <raphink> yeah
[11:03] <raphink> congrats azeem
[11:03] <mjg59> Ok
[11:04] <mjg59> imbrandon: You next?
[11:04] <mjg59> (and then back to Hobbsee, unless I've missed someone)
[11:04] <mdz> azeem: welcome
[11:04] <imbrandon> Hello , My name is Brandon Holtsclaw, and my wiki is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/imbrandon , I am an avid Kubuntu user and developer hopeful ( thus I'm here today ) . My goals are simplistic , basicly ( starting with the universe ) help do my part to bring Kubuntu to the level of polish that Ubuntu is ( Specificly in the default settings area for k* apps and eventualy kubuntu-default-settings in main ) I have Packaged , merged , 
[11:04] <imbrandon> ubuntu Dev's and many Diffrent MOTU's also the Ubuntu BugSquad plus Upstream KDE ( specificly Konversation the Team ) Such as Riddell,Hobbsee,Crimsun,dholbach,jpatrick,bddebian and quite a few more I'm probably forgetting as I'm just waking up. My experince and goals are listed on my wiki. Sorry I dont have a better intro , I'm workin with 4.5 hours sleep comming here heh.
[11:04] <mjg59> And let's see if we can speed this up, I'd like to be elsewhere :)
[11:04] <imbrandon> ouch that dident paste well
[11:04] <azeem> mdz: thanks
[11:04] <Hobbsee> mjg59: okay, i'm going to be afk for about 15 mins then.  I support imbrandon's work, having uploaded some of his packages, in the past couple of weeks
[11:04] <azeem> mjg59: didn't you bring your wine?
[11:04] <mjg59> imbrandon: Who have you worked with in getting your stuff uploaded?
[11:04] <mdz> imbrandon: who has been sponsoring your uploads to date?
[11:05] <mjg59> azeem: May have been in the pub already
[11:05] <Hobbsee> mjg59: mdz : me for one :)
[11:05] <imbrandon> hobsee crimsun , bdebian ummm
[11:05] <viper550> I bet he didn't bring Wine because he doesn't use Windows apps! *rimshot*
[11:05] <raphink> imbrandon has been very active on #ubuntu-motu 
[11:05] <crimsun> I've sponsored several. He learns quickly and has an increasingly improved grasp of troubleshooting packaging.
[11:05] <imbrandon> ajmitch has reviewd a few in my early stages i dont think he has sponsored any yet
[11:05] <imbrandon> Riddell ....
[11:06] <mjg59> crimsun: So you'd be happy with him being able to upload packages directly?
[11:06] <Riddell> yep, I support imbrandon too, he's done a bunch of merges and bugfixes for KDE packages
[11:06] <Toadstool> yeah, imbrandon has done a really good work so far
[11:06] <imbrandon> sorry its early but those are the main ppl i poke most of the time becouse they are generaly in the same timeframe as me
[11:06] <crimsun> mjg59: definitely.
[11:06] <bddebian> +1 imbrandon
[11:07] <tseng> ++ from me as well. he's been doing consistant work for awhile no
[11:07] <tseng> *now
[11:07] <mjg59> imbrandon: what would you plan on doing as an motu?
[11:08] <imbrandon> for the most part make sure the misc packages for K* fit into the rest of the desktop better
[11:08] <imbrandon> and that transitions are done smooth and timely
[11:08] <imbrandon> ( i also work with a select few packages in main a tad )
[11:08] <imbrandon> mostly all kde types
[11:08] <mjg59> Ok
[11:09] <mdz> bddebian, tseng: do you have any specific feedback on code contributions or interaction with the MOTU team?
[11:09] <tseng> mdz: I don't have feeback on specific uploads off the top of my head
[11:10] <tseng> I can say he has been a positive influence in MOTU
[11:10] <bddebian> Aye.  I have sponsored a few uploads for him
[11:10] <tseng> you can tell who is sticking around, helping out, and fixing things.
[11:11] <imbrandon> also my wiki documents my plans for universe better than i explained here
[11:11] <imbrandon> as i'm a bit tired still ( just woke up 5 minutes prior to the meeting )
[11:11] <raphink> ouch
[11:12] <imbrandon> heh yea not my normal timeframe ;) hehe
[11:13] <mdz> imbrandon: what was the motivation behind buntudot.org?
[11:13] <imbrandon> at first it was becouse the fridge was stale
[11:13] <imbrandon> and we ( the community ) wanted a universal news source
[11:13] <imbrandon> since the fridge has been rejuvinated and soon buntudot.org will point to the fridge
[11:14] <imbrandon> and our teams are in the works of merging
[11:14] <mdz> imbrandon: what was your experience in working with the fridge team to revive it?
[11:14] <imbrandon> with the guidance of sabdfl and janes
[11:14] <imbrandon> me and whiprush are actualy the ones that came up wioth the plan
[11:14] <imbrandon> so its kinda our baby
[11:14] <imbrandon> ( as far as bringing our two teams into one )
[11:15] <imbrandon> and makeing a "one community" , we discussed it with the members of our two teams via the fridge-devel list 
[11:15] <imbrandon> and mark gave the blessing
[11:15] <imbrandon> all thats lacking now is the tech bits getting worked out
[11:17] <mdz> mjg59,Keybuk: anything else?
[11:17] <Hobbsee> mdz: i'm back
[11:18] <Hobbsee> mdz: & applying for core-dev
[11:18] <mjg59> Hobbsee: Not quite yet
[11:18] <Keybuk> nothing from me
[11:18] <mjg59> I think I'm done
[11:18] <mjg59> votes?
[11:18] <Keybuk> +1
[11:18] <Hobbsee> oh crud, i'm a little early.  sorry, misread.  still incredibly tired.
[11:18] <mdz> +1
[11:19] <ogra> welcome imbrandon 
[11:19] <Hobbsee> congratulations imbrandon 
[11:19] <imbrandon> ;)
[11:19] <mjg59> +1
[11:19] <mjg59> Ok
[11:19] <gnomefreak> congrats imbrandon ;)
[11:19] <imbrandon> thanks \o/
[11:19] <mjg59> Any more ubuntu-dev?
[11:19] <Keybuk> ttyfscker, tepsipakki, "Juliano Bastos"
[11:20] <Keybuk> none of those appear to be here
[11:20] <mjg59> Ok
[11:20] <mjg59> Hobbsee: Intro?
[11:20] <ogra> Hobbsee !!
[11:20] <Hobbsee> mjg59: what do you want from me?  most of you saw me last meeting
[11:20] <Hobbsee> i got motu at last meeting, now i'm applying for main
[11:20] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: I'm curious as to why you wish to jump to main so quickly
[11:21] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: because a lot of kde stuff is in main, and it's very hard to get uploaders for it.  
[11:21] <Keybuk> you've only had upload rights to universe for two weeks, and I'm not convinced that's enough time for us to make a decision
[11:21] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i was very lucky to even get 4 uploads to main in yesterday, with people to sponsor them.
[11:21] <Keybuk> who are the Kubuntu team members who are also core-dev ?
[11:22] <Hobbsee> ah, raphink, tonio_, riddell
[11:22] <mjg59> Ideally the ones who are core-dev /before/ this meeting
[11:22] <ogra> heh
[11:22] <Hobbsee> crimsun, infinity, pitti, riddell, and a few other people have uploaded my core things.  oh, zul too.
[11:22] <raphink> yep
[11:22] <ogra> Keybuk, did you count her uploads on edgy-changes ?
[11:22] <Hobbsee> ogra: how high's that number now?  do i want to know?  :P
[11:23] <raphink> Hobbsee has been doing an amazing work lately
[11:23] <raphink> uploading quite a log
[11:23] <raphink> and working hard on bugs
[11:23] <tseng> I sort of agree with Keybuk, even though Hobbsee is great imo
[11:23] <pitti> right, I uploaded one merge and one update AFAI can recall
[11:23] <tseng> not a fantastic precedent
[11:23] <pitti> they were okay
[11:23] <raphink> although she hasn't been a MOTU for long
[11:23] <tseng> to jump to main in 2 weeks
[11:24] <Hobbsee> Ideally, i would have gone for MOTU earlier, but because of a number of circumstances, i didnt.
[11:24] <Keybuk> tseng: we've done it before, if there's a particular need
[11:24] <Hobbsee> which would put me in the right place for applying to main today.
[11:24] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: why didn't you apply for main at the last TB meeting as well?
[11:24] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: tried to.  they wouldnt let me - and i wanted to test out how the actual uploading worked before applying for it.
[11:24] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: i can modify packages and all that fine - but the actual uploading bit i didnt trust myself to do in main until i'd done a few in universe.
[11:25] <Hobbsee> heh.  a few.  i think i did more than a few :P
[11:25] <imbrandon> more than a few
[11:25] <ogra> plenty
[11:25] <imbrandon> heh
[11:25] <pygi> :)
[11:25] <raphink> hehe
[11:25] <imbrandon> -changes is more like -hobsee lately ( but thats a good thing )
[11:25] <Hobbsee> hahahaa
[11:25] <Keybuk> mdz, mjg59: I'll let you ask some questions ... :)
[11:26] <Hobbsee> uh oh, sound's scary.  i'm still not terribly awake yet.
[11:26] <raphink> :)
[11:26] <mjg59> Hobbsee: So, given that you'd be able to upload core bits of infrastructure and cause everything to break, why should we trust you? :)
[11:27] <mdz> Hobbsee: what stirred your interest in contributing to Ubuntu in the first place?
[11:27] <Hobbsee> future plans are to organise kubuntu, become kubuntu community manager officially, etc.  and keep working on the distro, making it better of course, with sane defaults.  Also important is getting a fast turnaorund time for important bugfixes, which me having core would help with
[11:27] <Hobbsee> mjg59: because i've yet to upload anything cracked in any of my packages yet, including most that were done before i was a MOTU.
[11:28] <Hobbsee> mdz: got sick of windows and it's constant crashing.  got to compiling, thought "hey, this is fun", and got more and more interested in the way things were being done - and saw how much was still needing to be done
[11:28] <mdz> Hobbsee: is your primary interest in -core-dev a practical one, avoiding sponsorship?  or are you interested in broader development work?
[11:28] <Hobbsee> mdz: did some cd testing, bugwork, etc for a while, then moved into packaging
[11:29] <Hobbsee> mdz: can you define broader development work please?
[11:29] <ogra> writing the killer app for kubuntu indeed ;)
[11:29] <Hobbsee> mdz: well, obviously, it's partly a practical one.  it's very difficult to get kde sutff uploaded to main, because most devs wont upload kde stuff unless it's really simple.
[11:29] <mdz> Hobbsee: contributions across a broader range of packages or subsystems, interest in furthering the core goals of Ubuntu
[11:29] <Hobbsee> mainly because they dont know the code base, etc
[11:30] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: are the other kubuntu team members not helpful?
[11:30] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: they are, when they're around.  and im' in a shocking timezone for such things.
[11:30] <Keybuk> is the lack of desire to sponsor uploads within the kubuntu team a problem that needs addressing?
[11:30] <Keybuk> I wasn't aware sponsored uploads were timezone-dependant?
[11:30] <Hobbsee> mdz: right.  did you ever read last meeting's log, where i covered some of this?
[11:31] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: they have to actually be awake and here at the time i want an upload....
[11:31] <Keybuk> do they not have e-mail?
[11:31] <Hobbsee> pitti is one of many
[11:31] <mdz> Hobbsee: last meeting of which group?
[11:31] <pitti> mainly because I cannot/do not want to test them
[11:31] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: they do.  email gets lots
[11:31] <ogra> mdz, TB
[11:31] <Keybuk> pitti: also myself ... I simply don't know C++ well enough to read patches
[11:31] <Hobbsee> mdz: TB, where i went for MOTU
[11:31] <pitti> so I only sponsor trivial patches
[11:32] <mdz> Hobbsee: no, I don't usually have time to catch up on IRC logs in detail after travel
[11:32] <Hobbsee> effectively what i'm doing now is my own uploads - the guys dont have time to test all kde patches, as they dont have the system there
[11:33] <Hobbsee> mdz: right. okay, i'll give you the short version then.  basically, i'm very organisational, so i'm looking at organising kubuntu to make it work a lot better, getting our developers trained, whatever their level, so that they can contribute, and to take some of the load off Riddell, who does an awesome job, but is still one man, and runs out of time
[11:33] <raphink> sounds nice
[11:33] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: most of the kubuntu team members arent in core - or motu, for that matter.
[11:34] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: we've still got quite a new development team, apart from Riddell, and a few others.
[11:34] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: in a handful of sentences, could you describe how shlibs work and what they're used for
[11:35] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: not really at this time of morning, but generally, yes.  means that if you have foo-dev as a build-dep then foo will be installed as a dep of the package
[11:35] <Hobbsee> so you dotn have to hardcode it into debian/control
[11:36] <Keybuk> when developing a library package, how would you make sure it works with this system?
[11:36] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: havent tried yet, that's something i'd ask for help on.
[11:37] <mdz> Hobbsee: for the most part, your contributions have taken the form of merges and syncs, more so than direct packaging/code contributions.  How would membership in -core-dev simplify that process, apart from avoiding the delay involved in sponsored uploads?
[11:37] <Hobbsee> even with core, i'm not out to upload anything and everything - i still dont know everything, there's still stuff i'd need help for.  but i'm not about to upload crackful stuff that i dont understand.  this isnt a "you are signing all rights away to asking questions"
[11:38] <Hobbsee> mdz: true. that's changing.  the last patches to amarok/kopete/libdvdread have been mostly patches, not merges and syncs
[11:38] <mdz> Hobbsee: it is, though, us signing away the requirement that questions be asked at all ;-)
[11:38] <Hobbsee> mdz: well, yes.  but i'm not irresponsible enough to never ask a question about something i dont know :P
[11:39] <raphink> true
[11:40] <Hobbsee> mdz: probably looking to commit more upstream stuff in the future, when i know how to code more.  but my focus at the moment is fixing a lot of the major bugs in kubuntu
[11:41] <Keybuk> mdz, mjg59: any further questions?
[11:41] <mjg59> I think I'm good
[11:41] <Keybuk> votes?
[11:42] <mdz> Hobbsee: -core-dev should be seen as a confirmation of a sustained, trustworthy contribution to the core infrastructure of Ubuntu, more so than as a convenience of process and upload privileges.  what do you see as your role in bringing Ubuntu (and/or Kubuntu) forward in pursuit of its goals which corresponds to -core-dev membership?
[11:42] <Hobbsee> gah.  i should copy and paste from last week, i think.
[11:43] <mdz> you'd be welcome, if the content would be helpful in context
[11:44] <Hobbsee> mdz: kubuntu has a rather shocking history for getting bugs fixed very slowly - it took over a month to fix a bug in the screensaver, since a patch was in kde bugs
[11:44] <Hobbsee> ack, dont think that made sense.
[11:45] <Hobbsee> mdz: mainly we have a problem of not enough people who can look at fixes, see if they're any good, and commit them if they do.  and the ones that can then have to get upload rights, so that means by getting sponsorship from Riddell 
[11:45] <pitti> Hobbsee: if it was supposed to mean 'better QA', it did make sense :)
[11:46] <mdz> Riddell isn't the only member of -core-dev who can sponsor Kubuntu-related uploads, though
[11:47] <Hobbsee> mdz: there's a difference between "can" and "willing to".  \sh has been quite busy, too
[11:47] <pitti> after this talk I would consider it ok to do 'half-blind' sponsoring
[11:47] <pitti> i. e. just look at debdiffs for 'doesn't look totally crackful' and otherwise just upload
[11:47] <Hobbsee> pitti: even that would be helpful, as long as it actually happened
[11:48] <crimsun> I've sponsored several of Hobbsee's and found them to be "within scale" -- they're localised and broken out for quick verification. Furthermore, though I still build and test locally, I know she has already done that before pinging me.
[11:49] <mdz> Hobbsee: raphink is a -core-dev member with a focus on kubuntu contributions as well; there doesn't seem to be a shortage of folks to vet uploads
[11:49] <Hobbsee> mdz: true.  when he's around.
[11:49] <mdz> Hobbsee: no one can be around ALL of the time ;-)
[11:50] <Hobbsee> mdz: well, of course not.  did i say that?  :P
[11:50] <Keybuk> I don't believe it's necessary for them to be around; you should be able to request a sponsored upload by e-mail
[11:50] <lucas> I'm not sure I understand how sponsorship requests are processed for kubuntu. don't you have a mailing list where you could request sponsored uploads when you need one ? so the first one to catch it wins it ?
[11:51] <Hobbsee> lucas: no, it's primarily irc based - if you're not on irc, then you're very much out of the loop
[11:51] <Keybuk> this, by the sounds of it. is something that needs to be addressed
[11:51] <Hobbsee> lucas: the way it currently works is to just ping a motu who is around, or a core dev who is around, and ask them to upload.
[11:51] <pitti> lucas: we don't have a ML, primarily because I'd reckon that few people would actually use it
[11:52] <mdz> if sponsorship is problematic, that's a problem that we should address directly, rather than by liberal application of upload privileges
[11:52] <imbrandon> Keybuk: +1 on needs to be addressed ( kubuntu-devel@ ? )
[11:52] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: it is.  like i say, there's lots of good stuff in kubuntu, but there's also a heck of a lot that needs fixing
[11:52] <bddebian> That same can be said for Universe :-)
[11:52] <Hobbsee> mdz: how do you propose that to work?  very few people from the ubuntu side will take on kubuntu packages, as you've already seen.
[11:52] <lucas> maybe a "ready to sponsor" team could be created on LP, and people would file bugs against it to get their packages sponsored.
[11:52] <lucas> similar to sync requests
[11:53] <Toadstool> well, for Universe, I used to use LP and assign bugs to motu-reviewers
[11:53] <Keybuk> we can discuss that afterwards
[11:53] <pitti> lucas: true, and with a script similar to request_sync this could be made fairly easy
[11:53] <Hobbsee> lucas: i believe motu reviewers works like that.  i think i eventually got a couple of uploads sponsored like that - but it's quite slow, and i never know if it's been done.
[11:53] <mdz> Hobbsee: I acknowledge that, but surely it isn't practical to expect all Kubuntu contributors to become core developers in order to avoid the issue
[11:53] <Hobbsee> mdz: of course.  just some of them
[11:54] <Keybuk> I don't agree that Kubuntu is a bastard child at all
[11:54] <Keybuk> why do you say that?
[11:55] <Keybuk> your problem seems to be a failing of its own development team, rather than of a lack of external support
[11:55] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: what i said above - we're getting people, they're getting better, but it's still very hard....well, yeah.
[11:56] <Hobbsee> +1 to Keybuk, and i'm sure my brain's gone.
[11:56] <Keybuk> mdz: any further questions ?
[11:56] <mdz> Keybuk: we need to move on I think
[11:56] <Keybuk> we do, we're already 2 hours in
[11:57] <Keybuk> mjg59 has had to go
[11:57] <Hobbsee> i need to go as well
[11:57] <Hobbsee> need to be at uni on time today.
[11:57] <mdz> ok then
[11:57] <Hobbsee> well, i needed to leave half an hour ago, but that's beside the point :P
[11:58] <Keybuk> -1 from me, I'm afraid;  Hobbsee: you've been an excellent contributor so far, and are certainly invaluable.  I just don't believe you've _yet_ gained the experience for main upload rights, I have no doubt that you will though
[11:58] <Keybuk> it appears you have a problem gaining sponsorship, and I think that's something we should address directly, rather than working around it by granting main upload rights to everyone
[11:58] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: fair enough.  this issue does need to be addressed though.
[11:58] <tseng> Hobbsee: I hope you are not discouraged to reapply in a few months
[11:59] <ogra> yeah
[11:59] <mdz> Hobbsee: I appreciate and value you contributions, but I'd very much prefer to address the sponsorship issue directly rather than using it as justification for -core-dev
[11:59] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: propose a solution later, rather than just saying "it doesnt work and needs fixing".
[11:59] <Hobbsee> mdz: ditto
[11:59] <bddebian> Hobbsee: Yeah, unlike me :-)
[11:59] <Keybuk> indeed, please do continue your excellent work
[11:59] <mdz> s/you/your/
[12:00] <Keybuk> shall we address the sponsorship problem now?
[12:00] <Keybuk> Riddell: ping?
[12:00] <mdz> I'd be glad to consider that situation explicitly, either at a future meeting or ad hoc
[12:00] <bddebian> I'd like to hear it but I have to go
[12:00] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: if you have to.  i really do have to be at uni on time today, otherwise it's not going to be worth living around here :P
[12:00] <Keybuk> pitti: you've been doing some main sponsorship, would you like to own the problem and work on a solution?
[12:00] <ogra> Keybuk, haven't we still that darn avahi thing on the agenda ?
[12:00] <pitti> Keybuk: yep
[12:01] <ogra> we're at 2h
[12:01] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: that's ok, this is a problem we can address out of band :)  have fun!
[12:01] <Riddell> pong
[12:01] <mdz> it's crucial that we have a healthy and maintainable system for vetting uploads through mentoring and sponsorship
[12:01] <imbrandon> i have to run but let me put my 0.2 cents in on the sponsorship before i run, I doo think we either need a ML just for that ( kubuntu-devel@ ? ) or a way to track sponsorship req in LP
[12:01] <Keybuk> Riddell: could you work with pitti with a focus on ensuring kubuntu uploads don't have a sponsorship bottleneck
[12:01] <mdz> I think there's work to be done in formalizing the sponsorship process in Ubuntu
[12:01] <mdz> and this is evidence of that
[12:02] <Keybuk> they're more problematic as they rely on both a completely different framework *and* development language than Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu which limits the number of people who can do it
[12:02] <mdz> I think we can take this up on ubuntu-devel
[12:02] <Keybuk> agree
[12:02] <imbrandon> and mostly becouse alot of us are in diffrent timezones for the few that do use our framework etc
[12:02] <seb128> that's probably not kubuntu specific though
[12:02] <mdz> Keybuk: would you start the thread sometime this week?
[12:02] <ogra> right, universe in general could need it as well 
[12:03] <LaserJock> ogra: ++
[12:03] <Hobbsee> ogra: there are more people around, so the chances of getting something uploaded is higher
[12:03] <LaserJock> but the problem remains that most sponsorship is a crap shoot depending on who is on IRC, etc.
[12:03] <seb128> Hobbsee: you have to find somebody interested by the package you work on, which is not always easy
[12:04] <ogra> Hobbsee, sure, but there are still often uploaders missing 
[12:04] <mdz> LaserJock: it shouldn't be, and if that's the current situation, we should address that
[12:04] <imbrandon> mdz yes that is the case unfortunately although alot better than the kubuntu main
[12:05] <Hobbsee> seb128: ogra:  i dont deny it, i just said it was slightly easier
[12:05] <LaserJock> mdz: we do have a motu-reviewers LP team but I'm not sure how successful it has been
[12:05] <imbrandon> lol
[12:05] <mdz> Hobbsee: I would very much appreciate your input on improving the review process for sponsored uploads, though it needs to happen out of band and involve a wider audience
[12:05] <ogra> agreed ... main is harder indeed
[12:05] <mdz> this meeting is running long and we need to move on
[12:06] <mdz> avahi is next on the agenda
[12:06] <imbrandon> ok i have to run everyone , thanks again , see yall in a few hours
[12:06] <Keybuk> that was mjg59's item, and I'm not sure what he wanted to explicitly discuss
[12:06] <mdz> this seems to be revisiting an issue that was decided by easy consensus ages ago
[12:06] <Keybuk> I think that pitti's recent summary to ubuntu-devel is perfect
[12:07] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-July/019680.html
[12:07] <pitti> ^ my 2 cents
[12:07] <pitti> I think for edgy the plan should be settled and not ripped apart again
[12:07] <Hobbsee> mdz: looks like a kubuntu meeting :P
[12:08] <mdz> I support pitti's proposal as well
[12:08] <pitti> I do see the need to re-discuss and reformulate our 'no open ports' policy
[12:08] <pitti> i. e. the thread convinced me that our current strictness is not really appropriate
[12:08] <Keybuk> pitti: does that need to be discussed today?
[12:08] <mdz> yes, it isn't a simple matter of system calls
[12:09] <pitti> Keybuk: no, not at all
[12:09] <pitti> maybe at the next dev summit, or another TB which isn't that long
[12:09] <mdz> I think that the way forward for avahi is fairly clear; it is a young technology and we would like to experiment with it, but throwing the doors wide would be premature at this point
[12:09] <pitti> mdz++
[12:09] <mdz> we'll make it easy to opt in, and take it from there on a more considered basis
[12:09] <pitti> yesterday I talked to Lennart, and he seems to basically agree, too
[12:10] <mdz> is there anyone present who has more comments or questions to offer regarding avahi?
[12:10] <mezcalero> pitti: hmm, agree to what?
[12:10] <pitti> once it matured a bit and saw some reviews, we should reconsider enabling it by default
[12:10] <pitti> mezcalero: opt-in for edgy, let it mature a bit, enable by default in a later release
[12:10] <mezcalero> the underlying technology of avahi is not exactly "new". it has been around in macosx for quite a while now.
[12:11] <mdz> pitti: indeed, we should consider it in context with the other systems we enable by default, not treat it differently because "that's the way it works"
[12:11] <pitti> right, but the package is still quite new
[12:11] <mezcalero> pitti: you're misquoting me there
[12:11] <pitti> mezcalero: sorry if I did